LicketyQuickety's Mini Normal - 1847

[nn30]

VOTE: thinkbig
Even RVS votes need bs reasoning, you schmuck

[nn30]

So, there are corner cases where no lynch is a good idea.

If we're in a MyLo and we have the option of no-lynching without losing the game, we should absolutely no lynch. Scum are forced to kill that night and we get to remove a potential mislynch option from the pool.

This is not that corner case.

[nn30]

The problem with this is that we are not in RVS. RVS was long over. Random voting is used to break the ice and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Can you show me where it ended?

I generally consider the RVS to be over after the mod posts the first official vote count.

I mean, that's

your

version.

My version is once something has happened worth talking about.

Like people agreeing or disagreeing on whether or not we're in RVS still.

Based on that definition, we're now out. So by saying it, you made it so.

God? Is that you?

[nn30]

I'm not sure where you got that from TB.

Anyway, 1-Shot's opening post and his second post look like RVS silliness to me, wouldn't read too much into it. His third and fourth post however seems like an attempt to prevent discussion and that worries me a bit.

If it's anything at all, it's a baby tick in the direction of scum.

His 4th post is actually adding to the discussion - he's saying don't read too much into RVS silliness.

Seems fine to me.

[nn30]

Agreed. "Letting it flow" is a good way to get town to hold off progressing pass the RVS stage

Disagree.

[nn30]

no-lynch haters love to hate on no-lynch!

all the RVS votes of stupidity and meaninglessness, and ppl just want to KILLLLL the person who has a peaceable approach, even in RVS!!! I generally tend to look for scum in the ppl who are trying to make an issue out of an RVS no-lynch vote -

now, saying that, no-lynch is GENERALLY a bad idea for town on D1 and scum know that and don't draw themselves into attention by doing that, so there is just a ton of WIFOM there anyway and I think the simple "attention draw" about it has me lean town about it rather than scum

I love to throw out a no-lynch vote for reactions on occasion. Or sometimes I do want it because of reasons (no good scum reads and being a cop, for example.)

I'm scum reading you for your '!' and '!!!' in the above post.

Seems like you're trying to pretend to have a reaction here.

*shrug*

Anecdotally, I won my first scum game by suggesting a no-lynch D1 and intentionally playing it off like I was newb town. I knew exactly what I was doing and it worked like a charm so it is a viable strategy if you know how to pull it off.

Town has good reason to denounce the no-lynch suggestion: the only motivations for it are scum or bad town play.

[nn30]

Agreed. "Letting it flow" is a good way to get town to hold off progressing pass the RVS stage

Disagree.

Why

Spoiler tag due to length. Sorry for the wall lol

Spoiler:

So, 1-shot vanilla town said 'let it flow' in regards to getting out of RVS. He made it very clear that his 'no-lynch' vote was just an RVS joke. He could obviously be lying about that since he only made it jokey after he got town's reactions to it, but I don't want to put someone in my scum category for something so flimsy.

Then, TB came back and said 'well yeah man we were obviously out of RVS when you voted no-lynch. Therefore I find you scummy.'

1-shot makes it clear that his vote was an RVS vote.
TB claims, after the fact, that we were out of RVS.

Without trying to get at the truth of whether or not we were out of RVS, it's obvious that the two of them are coming to different conclusions because they are relying on different assumptions. It's like one person said 'I think that coat is red' and another says 'nah, I think it's orange, I hate orange' and then the first guy says 'I'm going to buy you that red coat, red is your favorite color.'

Buying the red coat was based off of an assumption that the second guy would also think it looked red. Obviously this is folly.

In terms of our game, scum reading somebody for making an RVS joke by way of retroactively saying 'nah man, we were out of RVS, you're scum' is also folly.

I disagree because if we have two options 'let it flow' and 'declare when we're out of RVS' let it flow is way better - it allows the town to collectively decide when we're out of RVS rather than giving power to the guy who declares we're out of RVS (TB).






FTR - I don't at all think we were out of RVS when the no-lynch was declared. TB's opinion that we were out of RVS based on his benchmark (first vote count) is just patently false IMO. I put that down here because I don't think I need to be right about this for the above argument to hold water.

[nn30]

VOTE: No lynch

Only scum want to murder.
I don't want to murder because I'm town.

Vote no lynch for a peaceful tomorrow, today!

Bad logic. No.

RVS is now over for me. Serious vote -

Vote 1SVT

No lynching robs Town of its primary weapon, and rejects the agency of Town. NLing outside MYLO and specific unusual mechanics is an anti-Town action. And I could make an argument against NL even in MYLO.

Read my post 66 please.

[nn30]

@Pine - I find your vote on 1-shot to be town motivated.

I'm fairly certain you failed to realize that post 43 was a joke from 1-shot.

I believe that scum would be more careful with their vote than this. Therefore, town read.

p-edit: @Joshz hah! We had the opposite reaction to his vote. Let's talk.

I think that scum wouldn't be so bold as to vote on such flimsy ass reasoning - especially so early in the day when a wagon based on this is unlikely to secure a mis-lynch.

pp-edit: @Pine - I agree with your logic on the no lynch in a Mylo setting. Whether or not your or my logic wins out is predicated on if we believe scum to take the approach you take here. I'll have to add this to my scum play-book...
I'd like to add that a no-lynch in MYLO is also bad if there's a conf!town player around that scum can pick off.

ppp-edit: @Pine - I will continue to disagree. Feel free to shake however. Let me know if a cat falls out - mine went missing a while back.

[nn30]

VOTE: 1 shot wonder

=P

See? Still not out of RVS. Stop bitching about him voting no lynch, that's not scum indicative it's newbie indicative. Not newbie townie, just newbie. That post you quoted, Pine, is a clear joke, and trying to build a serious argument around it is awful. And you can't make an argument against no lynch in Mylo because sometimes it's a good idea and sometimes it's not, that's a game specific situation, there's no blanket answer.

So real vote: VOTE: pine

VOTE: Joshz

[nn30]

VOTE: 1 shot wonder

=P

See? Still not out of RVS. Stop bitching about him voting no lynch, that's not scum indicative it's newbie indicative. Not newbie townie, just newbie. That post you quoted, Pine, is a clear joke, and trying to build a serious argument around it is awful. And you can't make an argument against no lynch in Mylo because sometimes it's a good idea and sometimes it's not, that's a game specific situation, there's no blanket answer.

So real vote: VOTE: pine

I could forgive post 50 as being an RVS (which I very clearly think it is).

That said you basically took my reasoning as the gospel in post 70. Not even a question of my motivations - you just use it to attempt to skewer Pine.

[nn30]

Okay so the beginning is basically just a bunch of dumb votes like always. good to know

This post sucks

That post is fine. I concur with the sentiment. I generally find RVS to be useless, prone to Town vs Town squabbles.

This is exactly why I don't want to scum read 1shot bp for something so flimsy.

[nn30]

Stop trying so hard off the bat, just let it flow and work it from there.

I don't think 1shot was trying to stop the progression of the game.

I think he wanted the game to progress at a rate that actually allows scum reads to develop naturally and more accurately than slamming someone for a single post during RVS.

I looked back at his no vote and following joke post.

Either he's scum who had a response planned in case he got scum read... Or he's just town who knew he was joking to begin with.

Applying Occam's razor makes me think 1shot is just town (or at least null) here.

[nn30]

Missing piece of logic for 85 (sorry my fingers are slower than my brain sometimes):

The no lynch vote and the joke were 2 minutes apart.

[nn30]

@Dark Horse -

I maintain this - he wasn't trying to lock us in RVS. He wanted us to transition out of it in a way that allowed reads to develop on more substantial evidence than an RVS joke.

I agree with Dreal's stance on 'rate.' I don't need to answer this question.

[nn30]

I've been scum read every game on here, this is nothing new. My vote on 1 shot was to see if people built the wagon. People did just that, when in reality trying to read into a nl vote and a clear joke post during RVS is awful and destined to fail. My vote on penguin was a random vote on one of the only 3 names itg I remembered (1 shot and gerry being the others) as a placeholder before my post on pine immediately after.

And I vote with no explanation all the time, sometimes with a following explanation, sometimes reaction gauging, and sometimes reaction gauging on what I truly believe to be scum to test relationships. That's just how I play.


Also very happy this game is active q^P I hate stagnant ones.

The natural next step is to explain what you've learned. Please do that.

[nn30]

So the question is whether or not it's scum bs.

Honestly, I don't think I'd ever reveal that I do this IF I was a player who actually does this. It just calls into question whether or not you're lying about it. It won't help your game, as either alignment, to admit to doing this.

Admitting to this goes against both win conditions no matter your role. I don't think the type of player who abuses the rules in this way would admit to doing this.

He's lying.

[nn30]

Hey I recommend you come back and play again if you're telling the truth. I've thought about employing the strategy myself but decided against it. I've had the 'dark thoughts' like this. I don't blame you for employing it. Anyone here who demonizes you for it should should realise we're just playing a game and not take it so seriously.

All's fair in love and war right?

The more people on this site the better.

Stick around.

[nn30]

@Pine - I'm really liking LUV right now. I'll come back and back that up with something other than gut tomorrow when I'm not tired.

I'm really liking you Pine. That's a level of analytical reasoning that's difficult to fake as town. Not only that, the only other time I've seen it faked so effectively was by a scum player who never ended their 'analysis' with a vote. I picked up on it (because I was their partner) but nobody else did.

What makes Pine's behavior and my ex partner's behavior different is that Pine is actively moving the discussion somewhere (and following it up with a vote) while my partner was more conservative.

I'm heavily town reading Pine right now.

I'd like to point out that he is actively trying to solve the game while ThinkBig is more or less just throwing shade. Look at 210.

[nn30]

What makes Pine's behavior and

my ex partner's behavior

different is that Pine is actively moving the discussion somewhere (and following it up with a vote) while my partner was more conservative.

Pardon?

I'm telling a story from a previously finished game.

[nn30]

@Garmr / Pine - Your conversation reads like town v. town to me.

I like Garmr's theory on TB being town. Pine, if you want to continue this conversation, start with either agreeing or refuting Garmr's theory on why TB is town.

Right now I agree with Garmr and am putting TB as a slight town read for it.

@Penguin Power - Please explain your vote on TB.

[nn30]

are you his buddy warning him, TB?

Another wrinkle - Drealmer throws some shade on TB for his vote of Josh.

TB is townier for it IMO.


Once the Josh wagon got run the hell up, there were a few people who stuck around and kept trying to discern Josh's alignment. LUV, Pine, TB, and Garmr were speaking in terms of uncertainty while Drealmer was pissed the wagon had 'died.' The continued attempts by Pine, TB, and Garmr and LUV to decide the motivations of the Josh wagon feel town to me. I'm open to being disagreed with here of course.


The following 3 posts from LUV ring townie for me.
The first feels like confused town
The second feels like an attempt to solve the game.
The third feels like he's happy to let the Josh lynch fade away due to the slot being replaced. Feels like he wanted to reset Josh to 'null' and sort it later. Feels townie.

Spoiler:

Wait what? Doesn't it take 7 to hammer?

Spoiler:

@nn30: Agree to disagree.

@Josh: Your vote on Penguin didn't look random. It seemed like you laid down a serious vote for 1-Shot and changed it to Penguin because you were scum reading him for his little debate with TB. Either way, lying about not reading your role PM when the mod said everyone had confirmed in 6 does not sit well with me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Josh

Spoiler:

Wait what? Doesn't it take 7 to hammer?

Well since Josh is being replaced..

UNVOTE:

[nn30]

What makes Pine's behavior and

my ex partner's behavior

different is that Pine is actively moving the discussion somewhere (and following it up with a vote) while my partner was more conservative.

Pardon?

I'm telling a story from a previously finished game.

Missed that, I apologize.

Note to self: Never mafiascum at 1:30 AM in the morning after a 10 hour workday.

I follow this YT channel that talks a lot about the psychology and stuff. He has a video where he talks about the biases which cause us to mis-read things in the first place. It's fascinating actually. You might find this video interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

[nn30]

@Penguin - I dunno, I'm unconvinced. Flipping between 'scum read' and 'policy lynch' seems like something a towny could do. They aren't exactly super concerned with being consistent from post to post in the same way that scum are. The flip-flop leans town to me, not scum.

Not sure about the rest but that's the biggest point I wanted to contest you on.

I'll post this for clarity:

Town reads:

Pine, Garmr, LUV, TB

Null:

Everyone else.

I'd like to focus on my null's.

1-shot VT - I want more posts from this guy. His 'no lynch' from RVS spawned a couple pages worth of discussion and I don't actually think 1VT himself ever weighed in.

Dark Horse - He seems to be adept at discussing things with people but, at least on D1, he was happy to let town do what it wanted. On D2 he hops on LUV for reasons of his own which says town to me. His D1 seems at least a bit scummy (never takes a stance with his vote that says he's willing to stick his neck out) but his D2 removes this worry for me (by voting for LUV). I'd like to see what his thoughts are on the current game state but for now he's still a null.

Secret Agent - Needs to post more. Not much to go off of.

Penguin - Needs to post more. Not much to go off of.

Flubbernugget - Needs to post more. Literally nothing to go off of.

In summary, if you're on my null list GET IN HERE DAMN IT. 4/5 of you haven't posted enough for me to be confident in anything at all in regards to you. If you don't get in here I'm going to start advocating for lurker lynches because I'm town reading most of the people who are actually talking.

[nn30]

nn30, you're being way too forgiving. You can't extend the benefit of the doubt to someone in Mafia. It's pretty antithetical to how the game is played. I feel like giving TB that benefit of the doubt is the only reason yo have for TRing him.

It's also that I think Dreamer's interactions with him weren't distancing.

[nn30]

Um...so I post content, and instead of talking about it - like you want us to do - you comment on a portion of one of my bullets with a poor response. And, then you tell us to get in here and talk.

How about this. Talk to me about why TB is town, and why the rest of my bullets have no merit.

Thank you for posting content Penguin. I'm sorry to say that I found it unconvincing and I think you've got conf!bias goggles on.

I town read TB for the same reason that Garmr does - the interactions between TB and Dreamer feels like Dreamer is attempting to throw shade on him. There are two explanations for this behavior - distancing, and FoS setting up a later mislynch. I discount the distancing explanation so as a result I find TB to be town.

A response to your points, as requested:

Spoiler:

@Penguin Power - Please explain your vote on TB.

1)- I didn't like his comments around RVS and end of RVS.
2)- The weak shade that dreamer threw at him in 89 and 111. Feels like distancing.
3)- The whole policy lynching thing
4)- The "clarification" in 137...wants to distance from the policy lynch vote and make it so it was a scumread vote. Never states why he scumreads Joshz.
5)- The failure to pick up SAJ's vote on Joshz, but get everyone else. I don't believe it. I think he knew the hammer was dropped, and unvoted in 161 to try and pick up towncred
6)- Goes back to a policy lynch standpoint in 167
7)- His entry into D2 in 200. "Good job Vig! Look at me I'm town."

Hop on the TB wagon!

1) Which ones speficially? I can't respond to anything if you aren't being explicit. That'll get us making assumptions and we both know that leads nowhere productive.

2) I don't think this is distancing.

3) Josh played anti-town. His behavior got him (rightly) scum read and he was lynched for it. This seems like the perfect situation for a policy lynch. I see no issue here.

4)I responded to this already. This could be town who doesn't care about being consistent.

5)Please point to this specifically. I don't know what you're referring to so I don't want to respond until I have a full picture.

6)So?

7) Yeah I've seen this get scum read in other games. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I can see why you feel it's scummy but my response to you is to ask: do you really think scum would be this transparent?

P-edit: @ Pine - Can you point to more from TB which suggests his actions are scum motivated rather than town motivated? I'm asking because even if your assessment is correct, I want more before I advocate for his lynch.

[nn30]

It's more Drealmerz's actions and general impressions than specific things about TB. However, Congratulating the Doc is a classic newbie scumslip though, and congratulating the Vig is an entirely fluent translation of that.

So I guess the question is how new is TB?

He's been here for over a year and has numerous completed games.

I think that means he's not going to make the 'newb scum slip'

Do you agree?

[nn30]

Let's say we have 2 types of evidence.

Smoking gun evidence

and

Circumstantial evidence

Obviously, a smoking gun is more convincing than circumstantial evidence.

I think that his interactions with Dreamer are always circumstantial while an analytical reading of TB's posting will be closer to a smoking gun. I also think that his interactions with Dreamer are devalued because of the WIFOM associated with it (I think he was distancing! No, I think he was throwing shade!) Since we will never know Dreamer's motivations beyond a shadow of a doubt, we have to rely on something else.


If you want me to be convinced by you, I need you to make a case which stands up on its own merits

without

the inclusion of his interactions with Dreamer.

p-edit: he's been here since oh shit I mis-read september 2016 as September of LAST year. MB.

But Jesus Christ who HARD DEFENDS THEIR SCUM BUDDY.

That's just got bad logic written all over it.

[nn30]

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

You really should have taken something other than a fence-sitty stance here.

You're basically throwing out some bait and hoping another townie will latch onto it.

If you were town, and you believed at all what you just said, you'd be voting for me yourself instead of asking for someone else to do it for you.

Also, I don't like the fact that you've just thrown out an associative between two players which requires BOTH of us to be scum to be correct. This is a classic scum move IMO. It looks like you're 'trying' to solve the game but it's really an intentionally bad effort meant to mis-lead us into a lynch rather than one to solve the game.

VOTE: Penguin

P-edit: @ Dark Horse - I agree the quick lynch was not in our best interests as town. I had begun town reading Josh but I got this feeling after realizing he had already been lynched. I was at dinner with my father and in that span of time he was lynched.

So you think that uzi is more likely scum than TB?

[nn30]

@NN:

1.) His specific comments around RVS ending, and the ensuing interaction. Easy to find.
2.) Why do you feel it's not distancing?
3.) TB called is a policy lynch with no comment about scumminess. Later stated his that he had a scum read, but did not elaborate. How is that not scummy?
4.) Why would town want to appear scummy?
5.) I'm not sure if you don't get it, or don't

want

to get it since I was pretty clear. TB screwed up his counting of the votes which specifically left out SAJ's vote, but counted everyone elses (which meant a lynch). He then proceeded to unvote. I think that was done to try and get towncred.
6.) So? Where's his explanation of a scumread that he previously said he had...none. Back to policy lynch forgoing his scumread claim.
7.) TB is fairly new. So....yes.

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

p-edit

TB's been here for a bit over two months, and has what....1 or 2 completed games?

1) I find these an attempt at discussion. NAI
2) Gut. Same as your reason for believing it to be distancing.
3) Townie's can do this.
4) He doesn't care about being town read is what I'm saying. It's not that he WANTS to appear scummy, it's that he isn't intentionally trying to cover his tracks.
5) There's an easier explanation - he screwed up the vote count. Use Occam's razor.
6) The reasons for scum reading Josh had been beaten to death. He didn't need to add his opinion to the consensus pile.
7) Fine.

[nn30]

So, we shouldn't look at any associative interactions between flipped scum and players of unknown roles. Cool...you have fun with that.

For the purposes of a discussion of TB, that's exactly what I'm saying. Do not insinuate that the scope of my reasoning goes beyond this, please.

I think that TB's interactions with Dreamer make TB townier.
You think that TB's interactions with Dreamer make him scummier.

We're beating our heads against a wall continuing that conversation.

I'm asking you to move into unclaimed territory (TB's other posts) and convince me there. I don't really have an opinion on the rest of that so you have more opportunity to convince me THERE than by trying to convince me that Dreamer's interactions with him make him scum.

[nn30]

Um...why would I vote you if you being scum relied on TB being scum? Bad logic.

That was the very logic you put in your post.

We both have to be scum for your question to be correct.

[nn30]

@Town - I found a bad guy in Penguin. Help me out here, let's string him up.

p-edit - @Dark Horse - all fair points. I'll move LUV to null for now. I'm more interested in Penguin at the moment and would be more than happy to entertain a LUV discussion at a later point.

I also agree - screwing up the vote count is not something scum is likely to do.

pp-edit - @Penguin - you're more than allowed to be irritated! However your entire case on TB is based on choosing the harder explanation which, in my eyes, invalidates your case.

I am not misapplying Occam's razor.

ppp-edit -

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

Way to back track Penguin.

[nn30]

This:

No. TB can be scum without you...hence why my vote is on TB.

Is backtracking from this:

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

[nn30]

Can anyone actually point out a real case that pine ran on day 1 and why it has merit?

We didn't really have any D1 cases other than Josh... So while your point that Pine didn't run any D1 cases with merit holds water, the same can be said of most of the town (since the only other 'case' was one on 1-shot vt and I believe that 'case' to be built on RVS nonsense).

I felt that my conversation with Pine about the no lynch vote was town motivated. Hence my town reading of him. Take a look for yourself. If you have a differing reading of that please let me know what I'm missing.

[nn30]

It's more Drealmerz's actions and general impressions than specific things about TB. However, Congratulating the Doc is a classic newbie scumslip though, and congratulating the Vig is an entirely fluent translation of that.

So I guess the question is how new is TB?

He's been here for over a year and has numerous completed games.

I think that means he's not going to make the 'newb scum slip'

Do you agree?

Join date 2.5 months ago, post count 368. That's about as vulnerable to newbie tells as you get.

You're absolutely correct.

[nn30]

This:

No. TB can be scum without you...hence why my vote is on TB.

Is backtracking from this:

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

No, it's not. I independently scumread TB that was based on no involvement from you. My vote was on TB before any interaction with you. Why are you trying to misrep this?

You're taking a reaction test way to seriously, which makes me wonder if I really did hit too close to home now that you're trying to push me based on it.

Now it's a reaction test too? Rather than a real read?

...

Not at all impressed here.

[nn30]

@Jin - please see my read list from 236.

[nn30]

Is nobody else seeing the merits of a PP scum read?

Really?

[nn30]

Summarize why PP is scum

Yes, please do. Take care not to misrep or twist words. Also, make sure to provide smoking gun evidence and utilize Occam's Razor in your thought process.

This is one hell of a high bar, one which I will regrettably not be holding myself to.

I'll make a case after I've eaten dinner.

[nn30]

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

It's really just this right here.

He's been here since June. Not sure what this says about his experience level, but he's certainly not a newbie anymore.

1) Scum rarely, if ever, hard defend their scum buddy.
2) This post is making three separate assumptions
i) TB is scum due to his interactions with Dreamer
ii) I'm scum
iii) That I've decided that it's in my best interest to hard defend my scum partner

Penguin should have been here long enough to know post-flip associations are a big fat mess of WIFOM - figuring out exactly what it means is hard.

He's been here long enough that he should

certainly

know that pre-flip associations are just a load of crap.

So, he's taking his version of Dreamer's interactions with TB to indicate beyond a reasonable doubt that TB is scum. He then takes that, applies it to me, and uses it to assume that because I'm defending TB I also must be scum.

It's either bad town play or scum play.


I'm inclined to think that it's scum play - I've seen scum intentionally use associations between players (flipped and unflipped) to create 'cases' on people which should never have been there to begin with. When getting a mis-lynch fails, entertaining this many assumptions can masquerade as an attempt to 'solve the game' and earn the scum some town cred in the process.

Penguin has given me exactly 0 indiction that he's trying to solve the game. He's just throwing some low-effort crap at the wall and hoping a townie jumps on it (like the above quote - notice his lack of vote for me? He was hoping somebody else would do that for him).

@Town - Thoughts? I'm not interested in Penguin's perspective. He'll just try and talk his way out of it. I am willing to be swayed by the following people:

Garmr
Pine
Dark Horse
and maaaaaaaaybe LUV

[nn30]

Awesome. You are a great asset to town. Thanks for joining.

Trying my best here.

I'm doing this to sort you as well...

If some of the players, who I am strongly town reading, concur with you I'm more than willing to drop my read of you.

Until then I'm not interested in your take on the topic - you're going to disagree with my case and do so with conviction regardless of your alignment.

[nn30]

@Penguin - please see my post 64 in which I scum read Dreamer for his use of !!!!! in his post.

My read on him consisted of tone, and 4 characters (he used ! four times in his post).

I don't need a thesis to scum read somebody. Sometimes all I need is 11 words.

[nn30]

Can you re-state the reasons you scum read him?

[nn30]

All right fine.

Damn it.

I hate having to admit I'm wrong.

Bleh.

I ISO'd TB.

His 42 & 46 are really bad. So is his 213. They're low effort attempts to justify a scum read. I'm willing to move him to my scum pile just for those.

[nn30]

His 210 is also another low-effort post which could be construed as pretending to attempt to solve the game.

[nn30]

UNVOTE:

[nn30]

Hey Penguin where'd you go?

You were all kinds of talkative when you were defending yourself...

Where are you now?

[nn30]

@ 1 shot - why do you think that?

[nn30]

So, Garmr, are you suggesting a link between Dreal and Pine? I actually think that the surface level is what you are looking at with the Dreal/Pine thing. We know Dreal was scum but do you think scum would try to move one vote off their partner when someone can easily point to that and link the two? I think it was more of a ploy so that when Dreal flipped someone would draw lines to Pine and take him down.

Buzz nope your still on surface level. The correct argument and line of reasoning is if pine is town why wouldn't he just move his vote over to pine when he had the chance so many times? Super fucking simple stuff.

What are you talking about? I've re-read D1 three times now. There was never a moment where I felt a pine wagon was going to flair up. What are you talking about with you 'so many times' argument?

The D1 was a joke. We disucssed some RVS crap and then ran up Josh for his bad play.

There weren't 'so many' opportunities.

Surface level is exactly what Garmr's on about. He keeps talking about what Drealmerz SAID, not what he DID. He SAID ThinkBig, and then DID go after me.

ThinkBig is the correct lynch.

I'm sold.

VOTE: TB

[nn30]

Surface level is exactly what Garmr's on about. He keeps talking about what Drealmerz SAID, not what he DID. He SAID ThinkBig, and then DID go after me.

ThinkBig is the correct lynch.

Incorrect way of trying to frame things. Stop trying to frame my argument as something completely diffrent that's scummy.
I actually talked about what he said and did and compared them which goes beyond surface level. My argument goes into the motivation of the action not just the action itself learn to fucking argue thanks.

I don't know why you're up Pine's acorns here.

Your argument says nothing about motivation.

I still think the two of you bickering is town v. town.

[nn30]

Surface level is exactly what Garmr's on about. He keeps talking about what Drealmerz SAID, not what he DID. He SAID ThinkBig, and then DID go after me.

ThinkBig is the correct lynch.

Wait a minute.

Wtf are you guys even talking about?

The only vote he cast all day was for Josh...

UNVOTE:

[nn30]

. They often write reads that are easily back tracked on which contain words like maybe, possibly, could be.

Well then prepare to SR me, because this is a lot of the way I play the game. I play in possibilities and likelihoods of those possibilities.

I will lay 10 possibilities on the table, all of which certainly CAN NOT be true, and weigh them all and want to talk about them all / hear what others have to say about them all, get reads from all of that and let that influence everything and then gauge what I think is most likely to be the case, always with the caveat in mind (and often in my ramblings) that "of course maybe not"

to me it is a healthy way to play, and then from there what you need to do is judge who is just throwing around shit to cause problems and confusion, and who is actually trying to solve the game and figure things out

Unrelated note, I'm fairly certain this makes Secret Agent Town.

Dreamer doesn't say this to his partner... he says it to a townie he's trying to get off the trail.

[nn30]

So, Garmr, are you suggesting a link between Dreal and Pine? I actually think that the surface level is what you are looking at with the Dreal/Pine thing. We know Dreal was scum but do you think scum would try to move one vote off their partner when someone can easily point to that and link the two? I think it was more of a ploy so that when Dreal flipped someone would draw lines to Pine and take him down.

Buzz nope your still on surface level. The correct argument and line of reasoning is if pine is town why wouldn't he just move his vote over to pine when he had the chance so many times? Super fucking simple stuff.

What are you talking about? I've re-read D1 three times now. There was never a moment where I felt a pine wagon was going to flair up. What are you talking about with you 'so many times' argument?

The D1 was a joke. We disucssed some RVS crap and then ran up Josh for his bad play.

There weren't 'so many' opportunities.

Surface level is exactly what Garmr's on about. He keeps talking about what Drealmerz SAID, not what he DID. He SAID ThinkBig, and then DID go after me.

ThinkBig is the correct lynch.

I'm sold.

VOTE: TB

Tell me when a TB wagon was more viable over pine during day 1? The point was no one was voting tb except the actual scum member and even through he was pushing on pine he didn't switch his vote. He had the chance to at anytime switch the vote especially when I declined him trying to buddy up to me.

Neither were ever beyond 10% viable.

Your point is moot.

[nn30]

Vote drealmerz

This guy is WAY too disappointed at the dissolution of the Josh wagon. Why so invested in it? He was an easy lynch, looks like disappointed scum.

I'm fucking devastated. Seriously. It's fucking bogus. Scum tactics through and through. He sells it well, but I am NOT BUYING IT. If he hadn't self-voted I MAYYYYYYYBE would have MAYYYYYBE dropped it depending on the rest of it, but, nononononono, that is just SCUMMMMMMMMMMM. And if he gets replaced because you guys let him go...omfg...graaahhhhhhhhhhhhh...."ohno they caught me replace me" - it's a fucking free pass

NOOOOO.

It's gotta be my HS culture. No doubt.

This feels like a lot of grand standing coming from Dreamer...

I already feel that he does... well... whatever grammatical catatastrophe this quote encompasses when he's trying to fake a reaction.

I also don't think that Pine scum reads his buddy in this way - it's too legitimate sounding of a read. When you throw your buddy a scum read, you do it kind of weakly. You don't give town something to actualy latch onto - and this is something worth latching onto from Pine.

[nn30]

Garmr - your case is incomprehensible.

You need to communicate more effectively.

We've gone in circles and I still don't know what you're trying to say.

[nn30]

@Garmr - please reference specific posts and instances for your 'part 2.'

A few things. Your 330 makes a lot of sense to me. Here's what I think is safe to conclude from what you are trying to say:

Confirmed scum Dreamer responds to a case on pine by FoS both Pine and TB. He lands on TB, however, with the stronger suspicion.

What does this say about TB? He's probably town.

What does this say about Pine? One of two things - he's either scum that Dreamer soft defended, or he's town.

Here's my best argument for town pine in the context of this discussion - Dreamer's actions cannot be looked at in black and white terms. He could have soft defended his buddy, yes, but he could also just be saying crap in an attempt to get town read or in an attempt to confuse town. You cannot conclusively say that Pine is scum because of this isnstance.

Which is why I want you to point to specific instances for your 'part 2' so that we can futher this discussion.

FTR - I have a strong town read on Pine because of his and I's interactions following the D1 1shot no lynch discussion. I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong here - it's on you to convince me.

[nn30]

Wait, how does drealmerz attacking me "link me to him"?

He talked about you and he's conf!scum.

We're now WIFOMing about whether or not it was because you're scum or because you're town.

You're linked by the WIFOM.

[nn30]

@Garmr - I see what you're saying and your case on Pine isn't convincing. I can refute point by point if you want to belabor the issue, but the short version is everything you've found could come from either a town or a scum Pine. You've posted no reason for me to lean scum, either.

[nn30]

Jesus H Christ........

[nn30]

So:

I am town reading the following players.

Gamer
LUV
Secret Agent
Dark Horse

Town lean:

Pine
TB

Null:
1 shot
Flubbernugget

Scum lean:
Penguin

I'd like to more strongly discuss my null and scum reads. We're going in circles Garmr. Take the tunnel goggles off.

Re: Penguin - I posted a case on him to which only he reaponded. I'd like more input on it.

Re: Flubber - post man...
@1 shot - what's your take on the Garmr Pine fiasco?

[nn30]

Im pretty convinced this Garmr/Pine thing is TvT so i am going to move away from that.

@NN You are scumreading PP but your vote isnt on him, is there a reason you are holding back on the vote? Are you waiting for opinions from others concerning PP? I will ISO him and give you my thoughts.

Basically yeah.

I voted him previously and got a bunch of crickets from town.

So I'm waiting for some input from you guys to either 1) Convince me that PP can happen or 2) Convince me that someone else that I'm nulling (or even town reading) should get my vote.

[nn30]

@1 shot - what's your take on the Garmr Pine fiasco?

I think Garmr believes that he is right.
I don't see it as a scum motivation, but he's not right.

This is precisely my view.

Why do you think TB is scum? What's your reasoning (please branch out of what Pine has already said).

[nn30]

@Garmr - 281

I lay it out there.

Either PP is dumb town or scum for saying what I quote in 281.

I'm leaning scum.

[nn30]

Either PP is dumb town or scum for saying what I quote in 281.

Or smart town for baiting scum to go off...hard to tell with you since your reads are so bad.

Yep.

If he actually believed anything he just said I'd be getting a vote right now.

This is so bad.

Found one boys.

VOTE: Penguin

[nn30]

He's pretty resolutely failed to do anything other than defend himself too.

He's voting TB, but 90% of his posts are him defending himself from me.

All self-preservation. No scum hunting.

[nn30]

That stuff with Drealmerz WIFOM at best. Nothing definitive.

In 163 this seems like Drealmer is trying to set up tomorrow's tunnel. Based on this post, he very clearly knows the lynch was hammered. Moving his vote wouldn't have accomplished anything so he didn't move it.

WIFOM is air. You need more and you haven't produced it.

[nn30]

Can we focus on Penguin?

Why don't you see it? I need more than that if you're going to refute me.

[nn30]

So 1 of Jine Pine or Penguin are scum, according to you? They're the ones on the wagon (I think)

[nn30]

Somehow I saw 1-shot vote Penguin and I wrote you Secret Agent. MB.

Revised -

So one of 1shot, Pine, or Penguin are scum according to you? Those are the people currently voting for TB.

[nn30]

It's about as good as deciding that you've deciphered the motivations of Dreamer with enough accuracy to lynch somebody.

[nn30]

I didn't say I agreed with the logic.

I'm just trying to figure out what he's thinking for sure before I comment on it.

[nn30]

I would like to see more posts from Dark Horse, Flubber, or 1-Shot. To everyone, what are your opinions on those three?

Dark Horse's D2 was a lot better than his D1.

Null on the other two. They need to post.

[nn30]

@Shadow_Step

Hi...

I think you and I could do well to agree to play nice with one another.

I'm certainly willing to do so.

[nn30]

Yeah! Assholes who disagree with me! >:(

@Flubber - who are you referring to in 396?

'Though I'm scum reading the same post as you'

What post is this referring to?

[nn30]

@Flubber - I love the stream of consciousness going on here. When you're done I'd like a summarized list of reads from you.

[nn30]

Yes.

I can't say more - game is still in progress.

[nn30]

@Flubber -

All right. Let's try this again with a new mouth telling me what's going on.

What am I missing with TB?
What am I getting wrong with Penguin?

[nn30]

Pet theory -

1shot VT is scum for suggesting a D1 no lynch (as some people have tried to argue and I have argued against).

Pine argued on my side because doing so allows him to soft defend his partner without being the one to put forth the idea first.

[nn30]

Though this ignores TB who is also a bone of contention...

[nn30]

I'm fucking devastated. Seriously. It's fucking bogus. Scum tactics through and through. He sells it well, but I am NOT BUYING IT. If he hadn't self-voted I MAYYYYYYYBE would have MAYYYYYBE dropped it depending on the rest of it, but, nononononono, that is just SCUMMMMMMMMMMM. And if he gets replaced because you guys let him go...omfg...graaahhhhhhhhhhhhh...."ohno they caught me replace me" - it's a fucking free pass

NOOOOO.

It's gotta be my HS culture. No doubt.

I really do not like this post. This speaks more as faux outrage and feels very contrived.

This right here gives me reason to town read him.

[nn30]

I'm 100% not okay with this lynch going through.

Did you even consider 446, Flubber?

Also 'heh if he flips scum Nn30 is implicated to Lulz' is all kinds of weak.

[nn30]

VOTE: shadow step

L1

I'm just going to assume that Garmr's case won't be good enough to save nn from implication in the event this slot flips scum. I also don't like that attention is drifting from the slot

@Flubber - I love the stream of consciousness going on here. When you're done I'd like a summarized list of reads from you.

I have TB/shadow for sure scum, Pine for town(ish), Garmr for town, PenguinPower for town, and no memory of the rest of the players

Reserving a shadow vote because I don't want l1 yet

From this to this

VOTE: shadow step

L1

I'm just going to assume that Garmr's case won't be good enough to save nn from implication in the event this slot flips scum. I also don't like that attention is drifting from the slot

Nothing of this sort has happened.
Pathetic reason to jump on my wagon

More votes on 1SVT please.

Why do you spend this post discussing Flubber and end by asking for 1SVT votes?

[nn30]

@Shadow - also, I think there was some mafiascum.net trademark quote fail in your post I just quoted. Can you double check and make sure 455 says what you meant it to say?

[nn30]

I'd be fine with a Flubber lynch today. His push on me is built on air and if he were town he'd know it.

[nn30]

No no, Flubber read is based on a S_S scumflip. Not until then.

I've been sring him since he entered the game.

[nn30]

@nn there are two scum left. Just because I think 1SVT is scum I shouldn't stop hunting for the other one.

Was there quote fail in your post?

[nn30]

VOTE: shadow step

L1

I'm just going to assume that Garmr's case won't be good enough to save nn from implication in the event this slot flips scum. I also don't like that attention is drifting from the slot

@Pine - I don't think Shadow and Flubber are likely to be scumbies.

[nn30]

VOTE: shadow step

L1

I'm just going to assume that Garmr's case won't be good enough to save nn from implication in the event this slot flips scum. I also don't like that attention is drifting from the slot

Not on 1svt. I don't see it there.

I would vote for Flubber though.

[nn30]

@Flubber - you throw some weak ass shade my direction - 452, 447

[nn30]

@Dark - how do you feel about Flubber? I feel he's scummy.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Join me on the Flubber wagon or give me a good reason to get off.

[nn30]

@Dark - how do you feel about Flubber? I feel he's scummy.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Join me on the Flubber wagon or give me a good reason to get off.

Why is he scummy?

Are you even reading the thread?

[nn30]

499
More weak ass shade.

[nn30]

Let me connect the dots for you.

Weak ass shade = bs attempts to solve the game. Who would try pretend to look like they're solving the game?

scum

[nn30]

Your and my definitions of weak ass shade differ.

Seeing somebody's name - and pointing it out when somebody claimed to not post due to health reasons - requires actual effort.

Your shade throwing requires no such effort

[nn30]

My wagon is a textbook counterwagon from a textbook scum read

Wrong.

[nn30]

So now effort is indicative of alignment

Even if it did take more effort to point the activity out, how is that easier for town to do as scum? How reliable is this tell? What fucking planet are you living on?

You're doing a wonderful job misconstruing my meaning.

I'll rephrase so that my meaning is clear.

Scum have perfect information. That means that they are reading and interpreting the game in a totally different way from town. Town attempt to draw connections, scum read, and scum hunt, in a way that is very difficult to fake as scum (since you already know who is and isn't scum)!

So scum can either figure out how to fake town behavior really well

or

Make low effort scum reads (since they don't take nearly the amount of effort to fake).

Obviously, I think you're doing the latter.

P-edit - you didn't spring up as a counter-wagon that quickly actually. The TB wagon has basically been all we talked about today. We're FINALLY moving onto someone else with your wagon. There was no 'speed' involved.

[nn30]

An answer I would accept - I joined in and re-read the thread. The days we spent on TB don't feel like days to you because you hopped into the game a little later.

[nn30]

1) You've just put a bunch of quotes together and asked a question. This still isn't effort.

2) Even if I did consider it effort, putting effort in after you've been scum read for not putting effort in is meaningless.

[nn30]

@Jin expand
@PP expand

[nn30]

I'm just going to assume that Garmr's case won't be good enough to save nn from implication in the event this slot flips scum.

I also don't like that attention is drifting from the slot

Bolded was pretty bad.

Italicized was okay.

[nn30]

If I'm sure of anything, it's that Garmr is probably town after today.

[nn30]

@PP I have, numerous times, in other posts. I can't help that you're allergic to my ISO or if you disagree with me. I've already stated my case.

[nn30]

Then start a wagon you think is better than this one.

[nn30]

Hey PP, can you restate why you felt TB was so scummy?

[nn30]

And just because I placed intent doesn't mean I have to hammer straight away. I find it odd that your getting worked up over me not hammering. You have earned a place on my scum list.

This right here is making me want to re-think my town read on you.

Why would you declare intent to hammer if he wasn't already on your scum list?

[nn30]

I started the wagon on Flubber

Care to revise Garmr?

[nn30]

Being a jerk will get you nowhere.

[nn30]

The fact that anyone suspects waiting as scummy just shows how far mafia scums player base has declined in recent years.

You've bastardized why I found your post weird in the first place. It has nothing to do with you waiting.

Re-read my 594.

Great - now that it's fresh on your brain, I'll tell you again why it was weird.

Your 593 suggests that you declared intent to hammer without having a scum read on Flubber. Why in the name of the mafia gods would you do this as town?

The fact that you've side-stepped why I found it weird, created a straw man ('the fact that anyone suspects waiting as scummy'), and knocked down that straw man ('just shows how far mafia scum player base has declined') shows just how poor people are at debate nowadays. You're trying to debate me on a position I never held and you're declaring yourself the winner because you knocked down a straw man of your own making.

Stop that.

You're embarrassing yourself.

[nn30]

1) If it wasn't directed at me, I don't know why your reply (which was directed at me) included it.

2) Stop being insulting. It makes the game significantly less fun to be in. I appreciate the attempt you've made at teaching me your point of view, but I'd appreciate in the future if you took the opportunity to attempt to teach me without also taking the opportunity to insult me.

3) I understand exactly what you're saying with a compromise lynch. The post I had a problem with indicated nothing about a compromise lynch - so I'm now forced to believe you when you say that that was the intention. Your insulting me is not leading me to trust you on this matter.

Fin.

[nn30]

I have read up and i dont see a convincing arguement against the Flubber wagon. Flubber is at L-1 and i think S_S is likely a better bet for town than Flubber. Are we stalling out on the wagons? We seem to be split and are heading nowhere. I understand the S_S slot seems scummy because of TB but i think he has done a decent job bringing the slot back.

Presumably Garmr has intent. He'll get to it.

Do you also think that TB/Shadow is a better lynch today? I can't tell for sure based on your post.

[nn30]

No no, Flubber read is based on a S_S scumflip. Not until then.

Intent to hammer Flubbernugget. I'd prefer S_S, but either works.

Thoughts on this, Pine?

[nn30]

No no, Flubber read is based on a S_S scumflip. Not until then.

Intent to hammer Flubbernugget. I'd prefer S_S, but either works.

1SVT - your ISO is void of scum hunting. This is a problem.

VOTE: 1svt

P-edit - Hi guys! LUV, what did you find? I actually wanted to talk to Pine before heading that direction but if you have some more kindling to add I'm all for it.

For what it's worth, I'm hard town reading both of you (LUV / Garmr).

[nn30]

I'm also town reading Secret Agent.

This leaves Pine/1SVT/Penguin.

1SVT didn't do much hunting and I'm sure LUV and Garmr will have plenty to say about Pine.

On a gut level, this game feels like Penguin's town game but I'm not super confident about this.

[nn30]

No no, Flubber read is based on a S_S scumflip. Not until then.

Intent to hammer Flubbernugget. I'd prefer S_S, but either works.

Unvote

I am inclined to believe the breakdown. Like I said, my first non-Newbie game something similar happened to me. Josh doesn't strike me as having the guile to pull off such a convincing AtE.

This doesn't preclude him being scum, as I think the "I didn't read my role PM" thing sounds believable, but it does suggest we give him a full reset, let him recover, and judge him from this point forward.

Josh, go read your role PM, compose yourself, and engage with this thread. Consider this a Newbie Plus game.

PEdit: I'm not getting worked up, garmr. I'm mocking your "case." Being dismissive is actually kind of the literal opposite of getting worked up.

This seems like legit town posting here. I have to assume that Pine didn't realize that Josh was hammered by this point but that's totally possible.

@Pine - as for what I wanted, it just seemed a bit odd. You didn't really raise a stink over Flubber being the lynch.

[nn30]

170 is all that needed to be in my above post. The other quotes were holdovers because MafiaScum likes to make me look dumb.

[nn30]

Somebody else ISO 1SVT. I defended him for his RVS 'joke' but he hasn't really done anything towny since then. I'd be fine with this lynch.

[nn30]

So either scum got him, or the vig got him, right?

I don't recall anyone scum reading him openly - so the vig getting him is less likely.

I don't recall him doing anything in particular that would have gotten him noticed - so maybe scum just got lucky?

[nn30]

Yeah I agree.

What do you think of 1SVT?

[nn30]

how certain he [Pine] was of TB/Shadow being scum.

This could point to Pine being the vig.

Does this change your POV?

[nn30]

Somebody give me a reason to town read 1SVT.

Or vote him.

Either way.

[nn30]

Garmr - are you

sure

pine is just going to straight up claim vig even if he was the town vig (even though he's not under any pressure?)

Nobody seems interested in talking about 1SVT. Come on Garmr, widen your scope a little bit

.

[nn30]

Nobody seems interested in talking about 1SVT. Come on Garmr, widen your scope a little bit

.

Alright, i ISO'd 1 shot and he had 17 posts with little actual substance. He was big on TB/Shadow being scum and he talked about Dreal before he was killed, Dreal was a vig shot and Shadow might have also been a vig shot. So either 1-shot is lurker scum or he is a lurker vig. Should we put pressure on him and risk outing a vig or risk letting him go and flipping scum later?

I don't think the 'maybe he's a vig' is enough for me to not want to pressure him.

[nn30]

@Secret - who do you believe today's lynch should be if not 1shot?

[nn30]

Judging by the night kills scum are comfortable with their position because the big talkers aren't dying.

Or maybe scum are going for quieter folk in order to not have a NK lead back to them?

[nn30]

What did you learn from your ISOs of the other players?

[nn30]

I don't think LUV is scum. Can't really quantify it for you guys - it's a gut feel.

Speed lynch him if you need to, but you can count me out.

[nn30]

Man, this wagon is no fun when 1SVT isn't here to flail for us.

[nn30]

I wouldn't want to color your interpretations by doing that.

[nn30]

I'll give you a summary of how I feel after you've told me your own thoughts on the game.

[nn30]

@KMD - why did you decide to do this page by page?

[nn30]

My town reading of LUV is meta. The game is over now, so I can discuss it. His thought processes in this game are much better and more genuine feeling than they were in his recent scum game. This is why I town read LUV so strongly and this is why, up until now, my reasons for town reading him weren't very good.

[nn30]

Nn, That's just how I've been doing it in the last year or two when I have a pretty solid amount of reading to do. Seems to get me into the flow of the game better than anything else. Can you be more specific on your meta on Lil? What feels genuine here? What didn't before?

Nothing he said made sense when he played scum (sorry LUV). I didn't catch it at the time, but in hindsight it's pretty obvious.

His comments on this game have been much much better.

[nn30]

Hi!

First things first, since there are 10 days left in which to lynch, I'd appreciate if someone would take me out of L-1 right now, thx. You can deliberate my lynch again once we've been better acquainted.

So I haven't scoured the game yet, but I've run through the ISOs of the dead, wrapped my head around the setup in general, and very roughly skimmed the rest. I'll read in more depth over the next 24 hours.

In the meantime, I'd really, really like to see what

Jin

and

garmr

have to say about each other. If someone believes that this has been done by both parties recently, please point me in the right direction.

Also, if a decent case hasn't been made to justify the votes on my slot yet, I'd like to see one. I'm happy to have

nn30

as my wagon's representative.

Finally, am I understanding correctly that another set of lynch/nks like the previous one will end the game?

But I want to fear lynch you...

[nn30]

@Boring - I'll unvote for now, but I'm still legit scared of your scum play.

UNVOTE:

As far as the 'wagon representative' goes, you can read the thread like I'm making KMD. I want to hear your thoughts before I give you anything else.

[nn30]

nn

, I personally think that game isn't a good way to see how I play scum. I played bad but part of it was just not taking it seriously because I had such a strong teammates. This game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68482 I feel is more accurate.

You're gonna give me a WIFOM headache.

Prism spent a lot of time in our game encouraging me to come up with better reasons to town read him (obviously he was scrounging for town cred - you may be doing that here as well though I'll need more to verify).

@K - in the previous game, he bought into my tin-foil hat theory on an otherwise obviously town player. I'm gonna dig through this game with that in mind and see if he's sheeped anyone saying stupid stuff.

[nn30]

@Luv - I'd like a reads list, with explanations, from you.

[nn30]

@Boring - I'll unvote for now, but I'm still legit scared of your scum play.

UNVOTE:

As far as the 'wagon representative' goes, you can read the thread like I'm making KMD. I want to hear your thoughts before I give you anything else.

You chose to vote an inactive slot at a crucial point in the game. It implies that you've reviewed the content provided by other players and found it less suspicious than low-activity (which is decidedly NAI). That suggests you are merely looking for low-hanging fruit, which implies scum motivation.

So, I'll ask you again to please explain why you were voting my slot, or point me what you believe to be the best argument for my slot's lynch.

I want you to see your catchup post without my influence.

@K - yeah, I knew you would, but you're going to be giving me a catch up post before I give you my summary.

[nn30]

Being unable or unwilling to explain or justify a vote that you've allowed to get to L-1 is pretty fucking anti-town.

Considering the apparent fact that you, someone who presumably has been reading the game, haven't found a single extant slot scummier than the inactive one, I think I've found a good resting point for the evening.

VOTE: nn30

Well this didn't last long.

Nice mis-rep. Town will see through it, I assure you.

VOTE: Boring

[nn30]

I still want her catch up post.

[nn30]

UNVOTE: - I'm still deathly scared of your scum play but this does not seem like your scum play from last game. What were Dreamer's posts doing in your Q+ list, by the way?


Current reads on everyone are as follows:

Garmr - Town. His push on Pine yesterday, and insistence on it, felt towny. Plus he kind of dissed me in a way that I think comes from town frustrated with somebody not seeing his PoV.
LUV - Town. Play feels markedly more reasoned and logical than my last game with him. I also like that he began the day (today) by starting a push. Willing to be wrong here - I'd like more than meta to town read LUV with.
1SVT/Boring - town lean. Don't want to get into why for now as a scum!Boring would be able to adjust her play to compensate.
Pine - Towny. His 'fuck you' to Garmr earlier today held a town tone to it. Willing to be wrong here though.
KMD/PP - Town. PP's play leading up to today felt like his usual grumpy old man town game. KMD's entrance carried with it a level of analysis that felt like it'd have to come from a town POV.

Secret Agent Jin - Feels scummy given today's activities. I don't like 638 as, even if we figured out why he got killed, we are unlikely to find scum as a result of this discussion. This question incentivizes town spinning their wheels. His 655 feels highly sheepy and his 701 where he asks 'am I waiting for a hammer' followed by an unvote felt very off. Reason being, if he's asking me a question in order to discern my motivations, he removes the ability of his question to mean anything by removing you from L-1 himself. This is either scum not thinking through their play or town not thinking through their play but I think that it's more likely to be scum here since Jin is under no pressure at all and, therefore, will have his guard down.

VOTE: Jin

Obviously this means I'm wrong about one of my town reads. Will have to figure that out. I'm not sold on the mass claim idea at the moment. Changing up who we talk about is all we need to do to 'not be in shambles.' Additionally, I don't like the idea of revealing conf!townies before we need to. I'd rather do it in LyLo and have the rest of the game speak for itself in regards to how we decide who is real claiming and fake claiming.

[nn30]

Thank you, nn. As follow-up, if one of garmr or Pine absolutely had to be scum, who do you think is more likely? I realize your response doesn't necessarily constitute a scum read, as they are both in your town pile, but please humor me.

Also, I'd like to know everyone else's thoughts on my mass claim proposal. If only a couple stalwart against it, that's telling in itself.

the quotes on post #704 were added accidentally. They've no bearing on my post whatsoever. I was using the Q+ mechanic in my note-taking process, and I failed to clear those ones out, apparently. Hence, my appeal to the mod for them to be edited out.

I was asking why they were in your process at all. What about them did you want to get across (or think about) when you added them to your list of things to consider?

Also - if I had to choose I'd choose Pine.

[nn30]

@Boring - thoughts on Jin?

[nn30]

On another note, I forgot about 318.

UNVOTE:

Harumph.

[nn30]

@KMD - you say it's a good point, but you still think it's likely Jin. What's up?

[nn30]

Two reasons

1) I was taking care of two kids while doing that part of the read and forgot about it.

2) There are reasons to town read just about everyone in this game. Some of those are sure to be wrong.

Fair and fair.

I'm getting a sneaking suspicion that I'm wrong about Boring...

[nn30]

Lol your tin foil hat theory had me going. I forgot it was an open too for a second...

[nn30]

@Boring - you just finished a game with me. You know how flippity floppity I can be. What I saw, and put into, those posts is exactly what I was feeling at the time. I'm not explaining a 10 post sequence of events in detail. If there's something you want to know specifically let me know.

[nn30]

Ehh, whatever. We can mass claim. I'm not uber opposed to it.

[nn30]

You're scum reading me for something that happened before I realized my town play is VI-esque in the mini normal.

[nn30]

Really Boring, of all the time you spent with me in that mini-normal, liking me for scum makes no sense right now. Everyone can probably agree that my pushes aren't great but that they come from a town perspective at least. Can you go through what you don't like about my pushes and prove that they're scum motivated rather than just confused town? Or are you so dead set on pushing me that you're going to keep this up despite knowing that I just won a game with the VI defense? Plus you can check my finished scum game. Literally never had the balls to push anyone the way I pushed in the mini-normal or this game. If you can find reasons to scum read me beyond,

eeee look he changed his mind that's really weird

I'd love to hear them.

Until then, back off.

[nn30]

Prodge.

Busy night.

[nn30]

Something hinky is going on.

I'm a VT.

[nn30]

I'll admit I'm really excited by this game

I think this is a Boring-specific town tell.

After the recently finished mini normal, she complained about how she'd rolled scum in every game (I believe four?) that she's been in. She said that she was itching to play town and actually prefers to do it.

This may burn me, but I'm 95% certain Boring is town.

Beyond the meta argument, her recent posts have been good.

[nn30]

@KMD - How do you feel about Jin and Pine?

[nn30]

Not liking anything KMD has just said.

This:

Garmr, yeah I tried. It's just hard to look at that way. Your stuff about Pine feels like confirmation bias more than anything. I look at that and get a secret agent/you team. Mostly because I doubt all three scum voted together on the Day 1 lynch and I'm townreading boring which leaves you and secret agent was on both lynches.

Does not jive with these:

Garmr looks town.

Quick thought on that lynch. Either the entire scum team was on the wagon or I need to prepare myself to be wrong about my town reads on garmr or 1 shot. I'll keep this in the back of my mind.

Garmr's thing about having a gut read on dreal that he didn't tell us about doesn't sound like something scum would say. It's more likely to be genuine than a cheap attempt at town cred for getting a read right when there's no evidence of it in thread.
Just realized it's probably not clear where my guesses for scum are. Leaning Lil and secret agent still. I've really been townreading the more active players (nn, pine, garmr)

Garmr's delaying the hammer thing is still a town tell

Plus this post pinged me wrong:

Also I think people should read their roles again since we were rerolled it would be a head fuck if the role cop didn't do any investigation because they didn't read the reroll.

Double checked mine. Still claiming VT. If I'm a power role, I'm stating now that it was a deliberate fakeclaim and not a mistake.

In 796 he's either

1) Scum setting up for a counter claim move
or
2) Town trying to deflect a NK onto them since they've realized that a townie has fake claimed

2 is unilkely since LUV is basically conf town at this point and will be dying tonight. The move, from a town POV, has no utility. I think KMD is a smart enough player to realize this as town.

VOTE: KMD

[nn30]

why would you tell scum that?

I considered it.

Because I think you're scum. Obviously, scum won't get nk'd by scum.

P-edit: His change of heart doesn't feel genuine. I've scum read people in the past for not making sense based on their past thoughts (and been scum read for it myself). That said, I don't understand where the Garmr scum read comes from, espeically given the volume of town read posts he had on him previously. The fact that you aren't following the reasoning is exactly why I think it's scummy.

[nn30]

Checking who was on wagons isn't super useful Boring. The nature if this game means town are a part of every mislynch.

@Town - in general, what are good things to look for in VCA

[nn30]

The Josh lynch makes no sense.

The possibilities:
1) one scum off the wagon.
---1a) boring was excited for a scum game or intentionally faked excitement as scum
---1b) garmr delayed that hammer as scum
2) scum late on the wagon. This means lil is not a power role and BOTH power roles fake claimed.
3) or all three scum voted josh early.

All three possibilities feel unreasonable and I can't come up with another.

I don't get it...

Preview edit: so it's completely impossible to the point that you have to make scum aware of it? We need to have a talk postgame. Remind me.

Also, Garmr isn't a scum read for me. He's one of the town reads that I need to be open to the idea of being wrong about because I only have one scum read (secret agent). It's called gamestate.

The Josh lynch makes perfect sense. We had no idea that he was just a clueless newbie who literally posted in thread that he didn't read his role pm. What you SHOULD look for is who seems to be fanning flames and who actually hopped on the wagon for genuine thought processes.

[nn30]

I think I'm going to try to wade through some meta now, and I really don't want to.

Good luck padawan.

[nn30]

Boring is town.

100% now.

Garmr - why are you so concerned with a slot poking lightly at you? IMO this shouldn't bother a townie that much.

[nn30]

So who are we lynching?
My top choice is Jin followed distantly by Pine or Kmd.

[nn30]

Why not now?

[nn30]

Why are you scum reading Garmr?

This is a slot I'm fairly certain is town - I'd like to hear why you think it is scum.

[nn30]

5.fuck yourself.

Does this really need to be a part of this game? Like? Really?

[nn30]

Jin.

[nn30]

Forgot my vote wasn't on Jin.

Let's fix that.

VOTE: Jin

L-2

P-edit L-1

[nn30]

@Garmr - 898 is accurate.

Sorry I haven't been around much recently. I'm in the midst of the busiest week of the year for me and finding time for MS hasn't come easy. I've been keeping up on reading however, just haven't had time to post anything of substance.

[nn30]

Where are the Boring scum reads coming from? Nobody has really qualified them yet.

[nn30]

I scum read your slot before your sub in. I explained it when I voted it (although it wasn't an extensive case, I'll admit).

Since you took over the slot I've gotten (almost) nothing but town vibes from you. Hence my personal confusion.

[nn30]

Gg everyone.

I crumbed cop. I wanted one more night where I couldaybe find scum. That turned out moot when Jin flipped JK.

Good shooting LUV.