LicketyQuickety's Mini Normal - 1847

[Garmr]

The only person I've been mocking is you Garmr, so you can stow that plural pronoun.

Further, he didn't really push TB over me. As I said in literally the post before yours, he mentioned TB, then went after me. That's a classic soft bus. You offer up your teammate without much supporting evidence, then go after your true target - me.

Seriously, flipped scum offered one target, then went after me. How does that not scream bait-and-switch to you?

Case on TB is pretty solid. You're kinda the one who's doing nothing but throwing shade.

PEdit: Fuck off, I'll read whatever I like into whatever else I like. Vote bullying like you're doing is also a scumtell. Chainsawing this early? Amateur.

To josh before he went off the rails you over reacted.

[Garmr]

Actually now I think about it the only one you didn't overreact to being suspicious of you is the actual scum member himself drealmerz7. What made him different to me and josh?

[Pine]

I genuinely do not see your point? Josh was attacking me as a means of defending someone else. I don't like it when people tell me who I can or can't vote for, and the apparent chainsawing looked blatant.

Seriously, I genuinely don't see your point, or how those two quotes are in any way connected.

PEdit: Now I get it. I wasn't reacting to Josh's suspicion of me, I reacted to him telling me how to vote or not vote.

[Garmr]

Hey pine even through I'm attacking you the most right now it's because I'm trying to sort you because at the moment after the dreamer flip i'm unsure because i have three theroies on your alignment at the moment but I do have a slight lean to scum because your responses are pretty hostile when someone suspects you and I don't remember you being like that as town. But the important question I want to ask What's your opinion on the player NN30?

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: ThinkBig

I wish I had been here realtime for the insane madness of D1...wow.

[nn30]

What makes Pine's behavior and

my ex partner's behavior

different is that Pine is actively moving the discussion somewhere (and following it up with a vote) while my partner was more conservative.

Pardon?

I'm telling a story from a previously finished game.

[nn30]

@Garmr / Pine - Your conversation reads like town v. town to me.

I like Garmr's theory on TB being town. Pine, if you want to continue this conversation, start with either agreeing or refuting Garmr's theory on why TB is town.

Right now I agree with Garmr and am putting TB as a slight town read for it.

@Penguin Power - Please explain your vote on TB.

[ThinkBig]

What makes Pine's behavior and

my ex partner's behavior

different is that Pine is actively moving the discussion somewhere (and following it up with a vote) while my partner was more conservative.

Pardon?

I'm telling a story from a previously finished game.

Missed that, I apologize.

Note to self: Never mafiascum at 1:30 AM in the morning after a 10 hour workday.

[nn30]

are you his buddy warning him, TB?

Another wrinkle - Drealmer throws some shade on TB for his vote of Josh.

TB is townier for it IMO.


Once the Josh wagon got run the hell up, there were a few people who stuck around and kept trying to discern Josh's alignment. LUV, Pine, TB, and Garmr were speaking in terms of uncertainty while Drealmer was pissed the wagon had 'died.' The continued attempts by Pine, TB, and Garmr and LUV to decide the motivations of the Josh wagon feel town to me. I'm open to being disagreed with here of course.


The following 3 posts from LUV ring townie for me.
The first feels like confused town
The second feels like an attempt to solve the game.
The third feels like he's happy to let the Josh lynch fade away due to the slot being replaced. Feels like he wanted to reset Josh to 'null' and sort it later. Feels townie.

Spoiler:

Wait what? Doesn't it take 7 to hammer?

Spoiler:

@nn30: Agree to disagree.

@Josh: Your vote on Penguin didn't look random. It seemed like you laid down a serious vote for 1-Shot and changed it to Penguin because you were scum reading him for his little debate with TB. Either way, lying about not reading your role PM when the mod said everyone had confirmed in 6 does not sit well with me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Josh

Spoiler:

Wait what? Doesn't it take 7 to hammer?

Well since Josh is being replaced..

UNVOTE:

[nn30]

What makes Pine's behavior and

my ex partner's behavior

different is that Pine is actively moving the discussion somewhere (and following it up with a vote) while my partner was more conservative.

Pardon?

I'm telling a story from a previously finished game.

Missed that, I apologize.

Note to self: Never mafiascum at 1:30 AM in the morning after a 10 hour workday.

I follow this YT channel that talks a lot about the psychology and stuff. He has a video where he talks about the biases which cause us to mis-read things in the first place. It's fascinating actually. You might find this video interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

[PenguinPower]

@Penguin Power - Please explain your vote on TB.

- I didn't like his comments around RVS and end of RVS.
- The weak shade that dreamer threw at him in 89 and 111. Feels like distancing.
- The whole policy lynching thing
- The "clarification" in 137...wants to distance from the policy lynch vote and make it so it was a scumread vote. Never states why he scumreads Joshz.
- The failure to pick up SAJ's vote on Joshz, but get everyone else. I don't believe it. I think he knew the hammer was dropped, and unvoted in 161 to try and pick up towncred
- Goes back to a policy lynch standpoint in 167
- His entry into D2 in 200. "Good job Vig! Look at me I'm town."

Hop on the TB wagon!

[nn30]

@Penguin - I dunno, I'm unconvinced. Flipping between 'scum read' and 'policy lynch' seems like something a towny could do. They aren't exactly super concerned with being consistent from post to post in the same way that scum are. The flip-flop leans town to me, not scum.

Not sure about the rest but that's the biggest point I wanted to contest you on.

I'll post this for clarity:

Town reads:

Pine, Garmr, LUV, TB

Null:

Everyone else.

I'd like to focus on my null's.

1-shot VT - I want more posts from this guy. His 'no lynch' from RVS spawned a couple pages worth of discussion and I don't actually think 1VT himself ever weighed in.

Dark Horse - He seems to be adept at discussing things with people but, at least on D1, he was happy to let town do what it wanted. On D2 he hops on LUV for reasons of his own which says town to me. His D1 seems at least a bit scummy (never takes a stance with his vote that says he's willing to stick his neck out) but his D2 removes this worry for me (by voting for LUV). I'd like to see what his thoughts are on the current game state but for now he's still a null.

Secret Agent - Needs to post more. Not much to go off of.

Penguin - Needs to post more. Not much to go off of.

Flubbernugget - Needs to post more. Literally nothing to go off of.

In summary, if you're on my null list GET IN HERE DAMN IT. 4/5 of you haven't posted enough for me to be confident in anything at all in regards to you. If you don't get in here I'm going to start advocating for lurker lynches because I'm town reading most of the people who are actually talking.

[PenguinPower]

Um...so I post content, and instead of talking about it - like you want us to do - you comment on a portion of one of my bullets with a poor response. And, then you tell us to get in here and talk.

How about this. Talk to me about why TB is town, and why the rest of my bullets have no merit.

[PenguinPower]

Also...sorry I don't have many posts. You all derpwagoned town over the Thanksgiving holiday, and the thread just reopened.

[Pine]

nn30, you're being way too forgiving. You can't extend the benefit of the doubt to someone in Mafia. It's pretty antithetical to how the game is played. I feel like giving TB that benefit of the doubt is the only reason yo have for TRing him.

[nn30]

nn30, you're being way too forgiving. You can't extend the benefit of the doubt to someone in Mafia. It's pretty antithetical to how the game is played. I feel like giving TB that benefit of the doubt is the only reason yo have for TRing him.

It's also that I think Dreamer's interactions with him weren't distancing.

[Pine]

*shrug* Disagree. Distancing, then a pivot to a real target is a classic scum tactic. Trust me on this. You're new around here, but I've seen this many times. Performed it a few too.

[nn30]

Um...so I post content, and instead of talking about it - like you want us to do - you comment on a portion of one of my bullets with a poor response. And, then you tell us to get in here and talk.

How about this. Talk to me about why TB is town, and why the rest of my bullets have no merit.

Thank you for posting content Penguin. I'm sorry to say that I found it unconvincing and I think you've got conf!bias goggles on.

I town read TB for the same reason that Garmr does - the interactions between TB and Dreamer feels like Dreamer is attempting to throw shade on him. There are two explanations for this behavior - distancing, and FoS setting up a later mislynch. I discount the distancing explanation so as a result I find TB to be town.

A response to your points, as requested:

Spoiler:

@Penguin Power - Please explain your vote on TB.

1)- I didn't like his comments around RVS and end of RVS.
2)- The weak shade that dreamer threw at him in 89 and 111. Feels like distancing.
3)- The whole policy lynching thing
4)- The "clarification" in 137...wants to distance from the policy lynch vote and make it so it was a scumread vote. Never states why he scumreads Joshz.
5)- The failure to pick up SAJ's vote on Joshz, but get everyone else. I don't believe it. I think he knew the hammer was dropped, and unvoted in 161 to try and pick up towncred
6)- Goes back to a policy lynch standpoint in 167
7)- His entry into D2 in 200. "Good job Vig! Look at me I'm town."

Hop on the TB wagon!

1) Which ones speficially? I can't respond to anything if you aren't being explicit. That'll get us making assumptions and we both know that leads nowhere productive.

2) I don't think this is distancing.

3) Josh played anti-town. His behavior got him (rightly) scum read and he was lynched for it. This seems like the perfect situation for a policy lynch. I see no issue here.

4)I responded to this already. This could be town who doesn't care about being consistent.

5)Please point to this specifically. I don't know what you're referring to so I don't want to respond until I have a full picture.

6)So?

7) Yeah I've seen this get scum read in other games. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I can see why you feel it's scummy but my response to you is to ask: do you really think scum would be this transparent?

P-edit: @ Pine - Can you point to more from TB which suggests his actions are scum motivated rather than town motivated? I'm asking because even if your assessment is correct, I want more before I advocate for his lynch.

[Pine]

It's more Drealmerz's actions and general impressions than specific things about TB. However, Congratulating the Doc is a classic newbie scumslip though, and congratulating the Vig is an entirely fluent translation of that.

[nn30]

It's more Drealmerz's actions and general impressions than specific things about TB. However, Congratulating the Doc is a classic newbie scumslip though, and congratulating the Vig is an entirely fluent translation of that.

So I guess the question is how new is TB?

He's been here for over a year and has numerous completed games.

I think that means he's not going to make the 'newb scum slip'

Do you agree?

[PenguinPower]

@NN:

1.) His specific comments around RVS ending, and the ensuing interaction. Easy to find.
2.) Why do you feel it's not distancing?
3.) TB called is a policy lynch with no comment about scumminess. Later stated his that he had a scum read, but did not elaborate. How is that not scummy?
4.) Why would town want to appear scummy?
5.) I'm not sure if you don't get it, or don't

want

to get it since I was pretty clear. TB screwed up his counting of the votes which specifically left out SAJ's vote, but counted everyone elses (which meant a lynch). He then proceeded to unvote. I think that was done to try and get towncred.
6.) So? Where's his explanation of a scumread that he previously said he had...none. Back to policy lynch forgoing his scumread claim.
7.) TB is fairly new. So....yes.

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

p-edit

TB's been here for a bit over two months, and has what....1 or 2 completed games?

[nn30]

Let's say we have 2 types of evidence.

Smoking gun evidence

and

Circumstantial evidence

Obviously, a smoking gun is more convincing than circumstantial evidence.

I think that his interactions with Dreamer are always circumstantial while an analytical reading of TB's posting will be closer to a smoking gun. I also think that his interactions with Dreamer are devalued because of the WIFOM associated with it (I think he was distancing! No, I think he was throwing shade!) Since we will never know Dreamer's motivations beyond a shadow of a doubt, we have to rely on something else.


If you want me to be convinced by you, I need you to make a case which stands up on its own merits

without

the inclusion of his interactions with Dreamer.

p-edit: he's been here since oh shit I mis-read september 2016 as September of LAST year. MB.

But Jesus Christ who HARD DEFENDS THEIR SCUM BUDDY.

That's just got bad logic written all over it.

[Dark Horse]

Dark Horse - He seems to be adept at discussing things with people but, at least on D1, he was happy to let town do what it wanted. On D2 he hops on LUV for reasons of his own which says town to me. His D1 seems at least a bit scummy (never takes a stance with his vote that says he's willing to stick his neck out) but his D2 removes this worry for me (by voting for LUV). I'd like to see what his thoughts are on the current game state but for now he's still a null.

The quicklynch D1 caught me off guard. There was stuff that I really wanted answers for (such as why josh changed his vote), that I couldn't really go in depth because when I came back from a movie josh had already been lynched and the thread was locked.

In addition to dreal throwing shade at him, I like the fact that TB actually came out and attacked dreal near the end. Contrast that with uzi's 191, posted at the same time as thinkbig's attacks

Last game I played with thinkbig he legitimately did not know how to make reads.

[nn30]

nn hard defending his scumbuddy? Lynch nn/TB for the win?

You really should have taken something other than a fence-sitty stance here.

You're basically throwing out some bait and hoping another townie will latch onto it.

If you were town, and you believed at all what you just said, you'd be voting for me yourself instead of asking for someone else to do it for you.

Also, I don't like the fact that you've just thrown out an associative between two players which requires BOTH of us to be scum to be correct. This is a classic scum move IMO. It looks like you're 'trying' to solve the game but it's really an intentionally bad effort meant to mis-lead us into a lynch rather than one to solve the game.

VOTE: Penguin

P-edit: @ Dark Horse - I agree the quick lynch was not in our best interests as town. I had begun town reading Josh but I got this feeling after realizing he had already been lynched. I was at dinner with my father and in that span of time he was lynched.

So you think that uzi is more likely scum than TB?

[PenguinPower]

Since we will never know Dreamer's motivations beyond a shadow of a doubt, we have to rely on something else.

So, we shouldn't look at any associative interactions between flipped scum and players of unknown roles. Cool...you have fun with that.

So...nn:

Can you respond to my questions? I want to continue to provide content for you.

Also, can you tell me how we're going to get this smoking gun evidence? I mean, that would be awesome so we could lock this one up as a win and move on.