Rule Addition Regarding Hiding Identity from Staff

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Post Post #12 (isolation #0) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:20 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

Zoraster, can we talk legal precedent for a moment?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7096589

Given mods have been reprimanded for revealing hidden alts in games prior, where is the stance of the moderation team on this?

Because "Also, it's worth noting that while staff members shouldn't use their position to try to gain an advantage in a game, their official duties may mean they discover your identity." makes it sound an awful lot like "mods won't go out of their way to look you up but if they happen to be privy to some knowledge that they wouldn't otherwise, fair game?

Like I just want to know what the standard moderation response to "A Moderator has revealed who I am to the other players in my game while I was playing on an alt" will be.
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Post Post #23 (isolation #1) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:18 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 22, zoraster wrote:
In post 12, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Zoraster, can we talk legal precedent for a moment?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7096589

Given mods have been reprimanded for revealing hidden alts in games prior, where is the stance of the moderation team on this?

Because "Also, it's worth noting that while staff members shouldn't use their position to try to gain an advantage in a game, their official duties may mean they discover your identity." makes it sound an awful lot like "mods won't go out of their way to look you up but if they happen to be privy to some knowledge that they wouldn't otherwise, fair game?

Like I just want to know what the standard moderation response to "A Moderator has revealed who I am to the other players in my game while I was playing on an alt" will be.
It's a good question. A moderator shouldn't reveal who you are to others in your game. Generally their power of detection should be kept to themselves (and other mods) in their official capacity. Part of the problem before was revealing a secret identity to the game in general. The problem wasn't that the mod himself knew the identity of a secret alt.
Where does this coincide with playing to your win condition? I mean, I'm not an advocate of meta but there's plenty who are and considering just how powerful that knowledge is... You could see where the player may be stuck in a situation where they now need to choose between not completely playing to their win condition and not breaking this rule?

How is this issue handled?
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Post Post #24 (isolation #2) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:24 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

Additionally, looking at it from the other perspective, how do you reconcile the advantages this could grant a member of the moderation team?

And I'm not talking about abuse or breaking the rules states here, I mean that there now exist a set of players on site who may or may not have the knowledge of who you are, when much of the point of an alt is often to remove just that.

No matter how you look at it, it provides a significant consideration, even if the moderator DOESN'T know who the person is.

Because the mod is gagged on speaking about it, players are left to make their own assumptions about whether or not the mod knows the identity of the user and thus whether that factors into the strength of their read or how other people view them.

There's just no possible way it doesn't shift the dynamic of the game, at least in some small capacity.
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Post Post #25 (isolation #3) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:33 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.

Or they should be forced to publicly reveal at the beginning of the game "I have no knowledge of the identity of any alts in this game".

Because I trust the mods not to go looking for it if they don't already know. It's more prior knowledge that is a concern.

With that in mind, the obligation to ensure no game contains a moderator who knows the identity of another user under an alt account should fall
to the moderator
.

Because only they could know.

So if they have to replace out due to conflict of interest (wincon vs. site rules) or discuss with the alt who signed up a solution that fits both players (can you not use your alt this game? can you not play this game I would like to play?, etc.)

But the burden has to be on the moderation team, and not people playing under alternate accounts.
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Post Post #29 (isolation #4) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:10 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

That preposterous.

The conflict of interest here is the moderators, not the players. The player is attempting to play without the burden/benefit of their past history and that can be an appealing thing to try.

It isn't their job to ask every moderator "hey do you know who my alt is?"

It's the moderator's job to inform someone "hey I know who you are" and then the moderators responsibility to extricate themselves should no agreement be able to be reached.

I've already mentioned two ways in which the moderator can try to resolve the situation while allowing both parties to participate, but if the player with the alt doesn't want any part of it it is
part of those additional responsibilities that you mentioned for the moderator to cede to the alt.
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Post Post #32 (isolation #5) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:19 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 31, Klingoncelt wrote:The mods know all or at least most of the alts, but other players know the alts too.

I don't care if they know mine.
You're not part of the group that is at risk then.

Like, there are plenty of people who have alts and just publicly link them to their accounts such that anyone with 10 minutes of time can go look it up.

Like, there are bound to be alts who say "yes I don't care if you reveal who I am" and that's not the people we're talking about here because that is a non issue.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #6) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:26 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 33, xyzzy wrote:moderators are volunteers who give up their time and effort to make the community better, and I think it's unreasonable to expect them to shoulder the burden of making sure no one with an alt ever has to play in a game with someone who knows who that alt is. if you play with an alt and don't want to deal with that, then it's really easy to avoid playing in games with moderators.
Moderators are people who take on roles of authority.

By doing this, they are a moderator first and a player second.

As such, given the conflict of interest is with them, they should have to accept the responsibilities of their position and cede, assuming that no other agreement can be reached.
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Post Post #36 (isolation #7) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:27 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 34, Klingoncelt wrote:
In post 32, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: You're not part of the group that is at risk then.

Like, there are plenty of people who have alts and just publicly link them to their accounts such that anyone with 10 minutes of time can go look it up.

Like, there are bound to be alts who say "yes I don't care if you reveal who I am" and that's not the people we're talking about here because that is a non issue.
You got me all wrong. I don't want my alt revealed, certainly not while I'm still in the game. But if they already know it it's no big deal. They can just keep that bit of info to themselves.
ok but as I've highlighted in my posts, it's not just you who is affected, but the entire game state.

Additionally, you're not the one with the conflict on interest.

Finally, it's great that you don't care but there will be those who do, and for a very good reason.
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Post Post #38 (isolation #8) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:33 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 37, TheButtonmen wrote:based off previous situations i think anyone who really thinks the mods dont already know who alts are is kidding themselves lld

they already know this is just codifying it
I mean, given we're now codifying it, is this not the time to discuss this?
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Post Post #40 (isolation #9) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:42 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

neither of those were concerns I raised in my posts, did you read my posts?
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Post Post #42 (isolation #10) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:50 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

You say "you" like it''s personal, when I have exactly 0 non public alts.

Your statement doesn't address the concern though. So what if the mods have always been doing it? Just because something was done doesn't mean it should have been done.
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Post Post #45 (isolation #11) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:15 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 23, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 22, zoraster wrote:
In post 12, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Zoraster, can we talk legal precedent for a moment?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7096589

Given mods have been reprimanded for revealing hidden alts in games prior, where is the stance of the moderation team on this?

Because "Also, it's worth noting that while staff members shouldn't use their position to try to gain an advantage in a game, their official duties may mean they discover your identity." makes it sound an awful lot like "mods won't go out of their way to look you up but if they happen to be privy to some knowledge that they wouldn't otherwise, fair game?

Like I just want to know what the standard moderation response to "A Moderator has revealed who I am to the other players in my game while I was playing on an alt" will be.
It's a good question. A moderator shouldn't reveal who you are to others in your game. Generally their power of detection should be kept to themselves (and other mods) in their official capacity. Part of the problem before was revealing a secret identity to the game in general. The problem wasn't that the mod himself knew the identity of a secret alt.
Where does this coincide with playing to your win condition?
I mean, I'm not an advocate of meta but there's plenty who are
and considering just how powerful that knowledge is... You could see where the player may be stuck in a situation where they now need to choose between not completely playing to their win condition and not breaking this rule?

How is this issue handled?
Yes my Lord, but questions are dangerous, for they have answers.

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Post Post #46 (isolation #12) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:15 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

Reading is tech.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #13) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:20 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

the knowledge of who alts are is a powerful tool for someone who actually uses meta, yes.
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Post Post #67 (isolation #14) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:46 am

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 66, Glork wrote:Secret alts themselves are WAY bigger theoretical problem than forum mods having knowledge of secret alts.

People play differently when I'm in a game. If I wanted to gain an unfair advantage, I'd play under a secret alt and have a distinct advantage over players who don't know they have to play around Glork.

I sort of kind of get what LLD is saying, but I feel as though she's missing the forest for the trees if she wants to discuss the fairness of (secret) alts in mafia games.
I'm not entirely sure I buy it?

Like yes, there are advantages to the loss of your burden of proficiency, but isn't losing that same fame isn't own disadvantage? New players are often disregarded, and secret alts have a stigma against them.

I don't think secret alts gain the advantage you're thinking of, because if general if someone is public about saying "I'm an alt but I won't tell you of who" then I just lynch them?

Also, shifting backwards a moment: If secret alts are such an issue, what about hydras with non labelled heads?
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Post Post #71 (isolation #15) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:06 am

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 57, Nahdia wrote:modding sucks and i think knowledge of everyone's alts is a decent compensation.
Compensation? Isn't this a volunteer position?
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Post Post #72 (isolation #16) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:07 am

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

Also, if it sucks that badly, again, isn't this a volunteer position? They can just resign. It's happened before and can happen again.
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Post Post #95 (isolation #17) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:56 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 94, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 25, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.
I will gladly come back to the site when all alts are banned.
Alright folks, you heard it here. Someone get it done. #BanAllAlts
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