Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[CloudKicker]

Hey looks whos actually towntelling now, its hoopla holé holé

[CloudKicker]

reinforcing my reads that hoop/bv isnt a thing

[CloudKicker]

No she isn't. Letting you off isn't towny. Telling you to claim isn't scummy. You fall into the trope of people doing dumb things hoping to catch scum and then saying that people who voted them are scum.

And ure falling into the trope of people voting town bro, whos anti town now ? this gimmick also gaves me reads and still does

[CloudKicker]

Next person to show true intent i will claim, despite its funny to troll bv i dont really want to get lynched for it

[CloudKicker]

Just believe me its better i dont at least later into the day

[CloudKicker]

Its scummy that you should actually try to entertain the possibility that theres a reason why i prefer not to claim and that it is town motivated, you should try to read beyond the scope of the environnement where town gets claims

[CloudKicker]

Actually, now that I think about it...

I think Cloud is prob-town enough to the point where I don't care if he claims or not, since I don't want to lynch him any more. Just as long as it happens before or during massclaim -- whenever he feels it's best.

love you, town points for you

[CloudKicker]

My read is that either he's scum and stalling, or he's town and you are trying to frustrate me by not getting his claim in an expedient fashion so that I keep pushing him harder and harder until I finally get a town lynched after putting in way too much effort.

If you are town here, you'd be trying to make the process simpler, not throw additional wrenches into the mix.

Hes not, ure the one whos stubborn here

[CloudKicker]

He is a lynch candidate. Nothing has changed. If he doesn't claim, there is nobody else that I'll consider for a lynch.

Will you claim if i claim ? and if so, its almost like massclaiming at this point

[CloudKicker]

you said that 3 times lol

[CloudKicker]

BV, i will claim if you claim in your next post

[CloudKicker]

He's just trolling at this point. Creature, when you get here, please hammer him.

Oh wait, you didnt follow up with me asking to claim in your next post ? why do you expect ppl to do it if you dont

[CloudKicker]

LOOOL LOOK AT THIS

[CloudKicker]

By this vote, you either think we are both mafia and hes defending his partner or you think hes mafia and defending town, which makes no sens since you asked me to get hammered a bunch of time, either way its pretty inconsistent with your earlier reads

[CloudKicker]

@rask Me claiming only benefits scum, seriously or town if we massclaim for setup spec reads, theres literraly 0 town gain from me claiming here but to give me credibility, if i already have that credibility aka townread me, theres 0 incensitive for me to claim believe me

[CloudKicker]

To be fair, i kinda softed my role not voluntarily as pr, not my actually role and the more we talk the less i become useful yknow

[CloudKicker]

which makes no sens since you asked me to get hammered a bunch of time, either way its pretty inconsistent with your earlier reads

White knighting here does make sense, although I think it's more that hoopla out of all people should know better.

What about, hoop is town and hes right ? Even if its suboptimal to let me ''not-claim'' hes still actually right on me and BV is in the wrong

[CloudKicker]

BV whole last 2-3 pages and actions are based of mechanics, something he scumread me for defending sotty on, he also somewhat evades hoop questions about his actual reads on me, despite the my seemlingly anti-town behavior

[CloudKicker]

My gimmick reinforces all my previous reads imo, i hope clear can see that

[CloudKicker]

I will be back later on, please dont hammer me while im gone

[CloudKicker]

Hi, i see bv read me as lean town too, must be infuriating to kinda tr the dude antagonizing you

[CloudKicker]

Trolling is also a way to get reads btw winky wink

[CloudKicker]

also, hoop/bv interactions looks genuine even if i dont agree with all the content, again hoop/bv not a team

[CloudKicker]

@Hoopla, Creature - here's where you CAN do something. Vote Cloud and leave me with the hammer. The claim will come, trust me.

That woud be unfun tbh

[CloudKicker]

Yo, congratz on outing me asshole bg 1-shot and not used, i didnt want to out because i wanted to trade myslef with a clear or investigative role. I didnt plan on outing the affix but i dont trust you to not hammer me just cause i didnt out it, heres the claim i typed earlier today. I also thought about just not posting anymore for a while just to troll you even further but i actually want to win this game and not be banned for trolling every game. To sum it up, i wanted to test sotty and to protect her/clear her etc, imo it was optimal to not lynch her straight away in any scenarios and this is also the reason why i believe she was bussed




Heres my claim without my affix,

I hardclaim bodyguard

- started typing this @ #2423

From another game and havent read titus, i believe that a protective role shouldnt crumb right ? Its not an actual crumb imo in the sens of it but i remember i tried to push the idea to actually test the tracker because Sotty couldve proved to me, i said that many times.

My whole d2 reason not to lynch sotty was because i wanted to be on her that day and maybe try to track outside, if this happened i wouldve crumbed who i was going on [sotty] to possibly clear her and wins a ml since we wouldnt have to lynch sotty anymore because she was virtually scumread by most of the town, that was essentially my plan. Also from slight setup meta on specs, i believe that town masons + track + weak-ish proctective role did made sens since theres over 1 investigative and 1 protective in most setup.

I also wanted to further get reads from a lynch outside the sotty claim because imo it was optimal in every way.

If i was on sotty and i get killed for it, sotty is clear, we win ml, her track is considered true++. I also seriously doubted that i wouldve been killed while not bodyguarding if Sotty was mafia, because i hard defended the shit out of her, not reason ti nightkill me the mason claim.

If the flip outside her was incriminating Sotty i wouldve probably no bodyguard or on the mason claim, idk i didnt actually think too much about it but that was essentially my state of mind.

The reason why i didnt want to full claim is because i expected to trade myself at somepoint in the game with another pr or a clear, claiming here just kill me pretty much and makes me completly useless. As far as meta goes and from em, protective roles should almost never claim.

When sonia said that i was hardtrying today, i even reminded her the game when i got lynched as doc because i didnt claim, that was another soft and she mightve picked it up? idk she didnt push on me.

[CloudKicker]

If you hammer me after this claim, again, should be considered a hard cc and a scumclaim for tomorow, now unvote

[CloudKicker]

lol i fosed the guy, not wasting on non-confirmed pr or someone i think is town

[CloudKicker]

On sotty it was mostly a way to clear her + get a ml back considering she was getitng lynched, not that i tred her just that mechanically it was useful

[CloudKicker]

Ill just die

[CloudKicker]

i mean, night killed, not by protecting

[CloudKicker]

You also know that if theres a roleblock and we ml today and ure town, we are in autoloss. So essentially you are asking mafia to put yourself in autoloss if ure town

[CloudKicker]

Its easy for them to hit outside and blame me with bv threatening me to autoloss if hes town + we ml

[CloudKicker]

nvm about outside, i meant roleblock

[CloudKicker]

The scenario where BV is town + mafia roleblock = autoloss for me. So from BV, if mafia has roleblock this is a townloss

[CloudKicker]

So the very existence of his threat is anti town because it gives a clear and possible autowin for mafia

[CloudKicker]

If your claim makes sense with the setup it's believable in-of-itself though. Someone would have to cc you to fill that space otherwise.

You dont understand rask, we have ml. If we lynch town today, tomorow its lylo. I am town, if town votes me because of mafia actions (killing arona + rb) then mafia will both vote me for a townloss

[CloudKicker]

If mafia has roleblock my win condition would be to ml BV regardless of alignement, this is quite funny

[CloudKicker]

I suppose if he's fake-claiming, we'll find out when we setup-spec after all the claims are out. By the way, if anyone has a PR, they should be soft cc'ing Cloudkicker right now.

VOTE: goodmorning

I don't feel from the core of my bones that she's scum but she's an option I want to explore. Mostly comes down to too many bad votes and no vote on Sotty7. Still have lingering feelings that town are playing chaotically and Hoopla and Rask are being the voices of reason scum but I'm going to go to Occam's razor for now and assume GM's play is indicative of scum and Rask and Hoopla being reasonable is because they're town. I'll see how this pans out and decide later.

There's one other reason that I'll keep to myself, this is just a reminder for me to bring it up later in case I forget.

@Cloud, first off, it's not going to be lylo if we mislynch today. Secondly, I'm going to consider all the possibilities including that of a roleblock before I make any decisions. Don't worry, I'm not one to risk autoloss

.

i like to hear that

[CloudKicker]

UNVOTE: bv unvoting for now

[CloudKicker]

What do you mean by softclaiming pr over mason ?

[CloudKicker]

Like softing-ccing the mason claim ?

[CloudKicker]

Joey vote Creature rn

Nudes first

[CloudKicker]

But seriously no, i will wait for arona to come back and have a lil chat

[CloudKicker]

What do you mean by softclaiming pr over mason ?

I'm saying if there's RB then softing PR already gets you RB'd 99% and hardclaiming doesn't change that.

Yea but i mightve just get killed over getting rbed + clear killed if i didnt hardclaim, which is towngain and my whole point

[CloudKicker]

wait a BV wagon is legit HOLY SHIT IT MUST BE CHRISTMAS MORNING
VOTE: BV

i unvoted jsyk, only gm and you are voting him atm

[CloudKicker]

Despite everything I said, one of GM or Maria with hoopla is looking a little more reasonable than GM+Maria acting in the exact same fashion this past while as team >_>

Implying you hard tr bv, both gm and maria are my entry d2 trs and bv has a case againts him imo, why do you hard tr the guy?

[CloudKicker]

@Cloud

Maria, GM, back to this.

But to resond more specifically, I don't see why BV would have to bus sorry for towncred when he was the most consensus town player there was at the time. Sotty's lynch wasn't inevitable at the time so it's not like he had to move on it to mantain those townreads.

Why does BV as scum bus when already heavily townread? What does he gain from it?

I think that BV didnt actually hardbuss if you actually iso the guy. I believe that the sotty/bv ineractions were and could easily be mafia interactions since BV unvoted a bunch of time and some of his posts seems really inconsistent with a hard sotty sr. It seemed like he bussed to be consistent with his read as town!BV which his actions/behaviors did not match it. Being consistant when you antagonized your partner is also a way to strenghten your town position since he literraly lynched a mafia pr-claiming, something that is really ballsy imo so everyone would believe he hard sr her right ? I think that town!BV wouldve been even more consistent with his reads on sotty as per votes and the wagons, i also think that EVEN SO he wouldve been more careful about lynching a pr claim.

The wierd interactions, speech/behaviors non-matching but still ends up lynching a pr claims all points to scumplay imho, maybe im confbiasing too but this is the general feeling i got, maria also relieved good points. So its not more as to get towncred but to be consistent + solidify position, he literally got hammer on me today because of it and if hes mafia, theres no reason to hammer me here when he can just night kill without a loss of cred yknow.

[CloudKicker]

I also think that this is a fairly weak reason to hard tr someone rask, the jaack/sotty interactions are much more indicative of MvsT than bv/sotty's. BV also included some post with overjutification while voting sotty, as to make himself open to come back on his read and not lynch sotty if the wagon ever appeared to die

[CloudKicker]

I hard townread him earlier though for the work he was doing theorycrafting d1/d2 and in general he's put by far the most into figuring the game out. I can personally tell his work isn't BSing/agenda-driven even if I disagreed with the conclusions sometimes because you can follow the methodology and judge for yourself if it's reasonable (and it generally is).

Yea i did tr him too, strong scum players on em, like me, do control the town with seemingly towny stuff when actually its just NAI, methodology is NAI and if you disagree with the conclusions then thats another tell. i prefer ppl to have shit logic with same conclusions than the other way around, mafia is much more caution and neutral in their train of thought than town, they also feel like they have to be critic-proof and so on annnd all this is even more true when you consider it was early game, you can coast the whole game with good-neutral ish posts that looks like hes game solving while slowly pushing his agenda. Just like his recent vote on gm, he justified himself in the very same post sayin' ''i dont feel it in my bones but i still vote them cause blablabla'' he did that all game, i can quote a certain post im thinking about when he was wondering about hoop/sotty d2 which was a bad post

[CloudKicker]

Exactly rask lol, mafia bussed and thats the sole reason why sotty was lynched as uncc tracker claim

[CloudKicker]

Because if mafia didnt buss then sotty wouldve never been lynched imho

[CloudKicker]

(not that day)

[CloudKicker]

Its really easy to just bus then attack someone outside the wagon lynch sotty and then go into straight lylo

[CloudKicker]

HOLY CRAP I JUST RALIZED WE HAVE 2MLS THIS IS GAMECHANGING

[CloudKicker]

@ rask maybe ure right but you still shouldnt hard tr him imo for that the same way jaack is townread

[CloudKicker]

UNVOTE:

I don't really buy his claim (1418 doesn't strike me as particularly likely to come from a bg) but it's veracity will be evident with time.

I'm not really feeling any strong enough about anyone else's chance of being scum so I'm going to review some isos and stuff.

BlackVoid is still town though obviously. I literally don't see a case against him.

I never planned to claim ever but to crumb the night before i wanted to use my visit, so again ur rebutal is not valid

[CloudKicker]

I dont like the gm wagon when both my srs kind of want him and i doubt im wrong on both. Rask could easily be the voice of reason scum and she outed several posts last page about her getting lynched, sounds just like textbook scumwifom to me

[CloudKicker]

Everyone kind of towntold and at this point a strategic flip would help alot imo

[CloudKicker]

Im pretty much the first who outed a hard read on rask in the beginning of the day before my claim and seemingly everyone ignored me

[CloudKicker]

Id be down for rask/creat so far, i think hoop towntold more than those 2

[CloudKicker]

Also if rask get lynched its mosltly out of respect to her scumplay and the slight meta i got on her

[CloudKicker]

oh look at jaack coming around with the same read i outed at day start, funny

[CloudKicker]

Smith, arona unvoted me somewhere and VOTE: rask my own fos + bv/jaack rationale that they agree on, not unliking it

[CloudKicker]

thats a weak reason rask

[CloudKicker]

when in rome ?

[CloudKicker]

i googled it

[CloudKicker]

dont self tho

[CloudKicker]

i know i did that but it was out of spite and town sucked dicks that game

[CloudKicker]

Not sure if hoop is the way to go, i know most of you didnt have the same feeling as i did but imo he towntold fmpov before outed, that mightve been an chainsaw but id prefer crea/rask today, crea needs to give good content

[CloudKicker]

VOTE: Hoop

This is L-1 best way to go I'm very confused at how things are playing out between creature/BV

I thought you wanted creat/bv ? why this vote

[CloudKicker]

Why dont you even try ? BV just outed that he might want to flip it to creat, why not just unvote here and then vote creature ? Are you afraid because youre starting to believe that one of them is town etc ?

[CloudKicker]

@ BV creat is also my top lynch atm VOTE: Creature @ mariar heres your chance

[CloudKicker]

Maybe infamous mariar and bv will both ally to maybe lynch mefia ??? ehehehe that would be a cute story

[CloudKicker]

lmao that was fast

[CloudKicker]

<3

[CloudKicker]

Nevar forget

[CloudKicker]

Spam it with nudes

[CloudKicker]

lol dat unvote

[CloudKicker]

I dont want to be that guy but, rask's strong meta looks like a soft check, if so it would help town a lot

[CloudKicker]

I dont want to be that guy but, rask's strong meta looks like a soft check, if so it would help town a lot

YOU DON'T ASK THESE THINGS
Y O U N E V E

R A S K

crumbed...

[CloudKicker]

Im curious as to why, im down not to rush the lynch

[CloudKicker]

UNVOTE: creature

[CloudKicker]

i can act as a clear >_<

[CloudKicker]

>_<" kawaiii

[CloudKicker]

Im actually trying no to troll too much and play for my win con, but at times theres the troll urge inside me, the gt urges

[CloudKicker]

50 SHADES

[CloudKicker]

LOLED, THE GIRL IM SEEING IS JUST BESIDE ME AND TOLD ME TO STOP TRYING TO GET INTO THE PANTS OF ONLINE ANIME GRILLS LOL mariar

[CloudKicker]

already too late dont be jelly

[CloudKicker]

Rask you realize that you softed pretty darn hard, its not that i dont trust you its just that im not okay quickhammering someone youre strongarming when you were my only somwhwat serious scumread d2 yknow

[CloudKicker]

Youre ingnoring what i said and just answer like half of it ;-;

[CloudKicker]

I am not yet comfortable hammering this + i want you to explain me the creature read

[CloudKicker]

bv, do you still want me on arona or you ?

[CloudKicker]

i expect to not be killed with 3 masons

[CloudKicker]

im too busy atm to review and have new reads, will check this out tomorow

[CloudKicker]

yea ill check it out, depending on the flip too

[CloudKicker]

With 2 mls we should lynch individually not team-based imo. Todays flip should strategic and optimal for tomorow's lynch, this is how i proceed on em and im successful so, we either a liability-scummy (like creat, maria and gm but i think are town) lynch or a respect lynch for a netter town position (rask her who imo scumtold at the start of the day but got town to 180 on her and hoopla who towntold a few tome but is getting heavily fosed atm). Raks still ignored me when i asked about the soft considering shes a vt claim and appealed to
Me to lynch hoopla fast, i think in her eyes she didnt mind being scummy and try to lynch anyone outside her since she thought shed be lynched if not? I would say the its generally towny imo but the use of the soft and then ignoring me about it, feels scum to me. I also think the creat hard tr looks artificial, as if shes either buddying or outed a tr shes locked into as scum

[CloudKicker]

VOTE: rask

[CloudKicker]

@ rask ure roght that its different on em, and thats also a reason why i think its scummy, you disnt pr told imo and out a soft and try to grt a quick hammer out of it, funnily enough its the kind of stuff i do as town all the time but i get to lynch mafia to clear myself

[CloudKicker]

Seriously i would heavily prefer a creature/rask lynch but id be down on hoop since rest of town blocks seems to be in favor, i wouldnt if we only had 1 ml tho

[CloudKicker]

VOTE: creature

[CloudKicker]

@ Mariar why not rask ? so i wasnt alone that felt like she softed something, what do you think of the fake soft ?

[CloudKicker]

Eh, it seems the chips are falling my way and I will be a pretty heavily suspected candidate no matter if someone else is lynched today, so I accept my unfortunate fate.

Waking up today, I had the idea that the likeliest team was goodmorning/Creature. I agree with BV that Rask's mania during the last couple of days has been quite town and I might just be paranoid. If he's scum he's playing very well -- really, whoever is scum is playing well and I'm still unsure about the team. I still don't find Rask's meta read of Creature convincing and I think him being wrong about me today should show that his confidence in Creature doesn't mean it's right given he's equally confident about me being scum (and wrong).

I'll answer any questions while I'm here, but I don't think my reads will provide much more insight into who the team. I will say the town should follow and trust BV more, and I hope Cloud protects our masons well tonight!

Will do my best, im assuming you prefer creat over rask ?

[CloudKicker]

I don't think Creature/Maria

or goodmorning/Creature

are a thing, so goodmorning/Creature

typo in here lol. don't know what i was thinking there

Slippp 1!!!

[CloudKicker]

Stop playing for teams, play the man and trust me on this, its the best course of action

[CloudKicker]

oh shit mfw i just came back and hoop is lynched

[CloudKicker]

lets see

[CloudKicker]

i wouldve prefered creat

[CloudKicker]

lol @ rask thats feels wrong

[CloudKicker]

Youre really trying to justify your vote pre-flip from a gut read based on a violin meme and btw everyone pm smith for reduced deadline please

[CloudKicker]

SPEED DEADLINE PLS PM SMITH

[CloudKicker]

i missed but i wanted bv to be the one to stay alive so its all fine for me since i wanted to keep playing I didnt actually want hoop that much and i was right when she defended me pre claim, that was town so im going to start with her reads into consideration an applies mines to it

@Hoopla, if you are town, give us one last lynch list. You throw around a ton of teams but I'd like to see one clear ordered list starting from your top suspect to your least.

goodmorning

/

creature

-

rask

/

maria

-
-

rask

/

creature

-

jack

/

creature

,

jack

/

maria

jack

/

goodmorning

,

rask

/

goodmorning

,

maria

/

goodmorning

,

maria

/

creature

-

cloud teams

~~

can i die in peace now? none of this slow torture please!

also, last words: don't value rask's meta read on creature.

[CloudKicker]

MariaR, now thats your here and the only one woke up its your time to prove me that youre actually town -> i want your reads on the flip + opinions on rask and gm

[CloudKicker]

Sonia, we only have 1 mls i want to revises all my reads so no im not kidding

[CloudKicker]

It didnt magically went away, sotty fliped and i really doubt they bussed that early in the game. Also if ure right on rask and im right on jack, thats leves creat/gm and no mafia bussed sotty. My initial read about the sotty bus was that she was lynched as a pr claim and like bv explained, it was because of the 3 masons who knew that a tracker made 0 sens so maybe all town voted sotty? I think that the rask refusal to explain the creat read beyond meta and her thingy soft when she appealed to me to hammer hoop was scummy. If shes mafia imo its probably not with creature since i doubt mafia would hardbuddy their partner with 2 mls, that leaves gm that makes no sens so jack/you wink wink

[CloudKicker]

Like i can see mafia trying to increases the lynch pool today on jack fairly easily and i dont really want to go back to that read on a ml, if it even comes to it it would be tomorow if we still mislynches @ mariar

[CloudKicker]

Because even if im wrong, theres still 1 mafia outside, this is exactly how i proceed on em

[CloudKicker]

BTW, if no mafia bussed sotty, that leaves mariar creat gm, maria creat not a team that leave GM. So if gm is town, and he knows, then he should be 100% certain that 1 on jack/rask is mafia. So from GM povs, imho, theres a the very very least 1 mafia in jack/rask (rask) and 1 in the creat/mariar. This is all reinforced by the fact that maria/creat wouldnt hardbus on mylo and that i fairly doubt sotty was double bussed especially by jack

[CloudKicker]

Teams
Rask + MariaR
Rask + Creature
GM + MariaR

Non-Teams
Rask + GM
MariaR + Creature
Rask + Jack (double buss d1?)

Green to red on how certain i am about theses

[CloudKicker]

VOTE: rask[/rask]

[CloudKicker]

lol woops VOTE: rask

[CloudKicker]

@jaack im fairly sure that rask is scum and im not giving her another day

[CloudKicker]

Rask makes the most sens compared to everyone on the table btw, the hoop flip and the d1 wagon + other stuff, individual hard sr, her hard tr on creat all this is scum

[CloudKicker]

CReature please, can you revise the rask read ? I think she knows she was almost getting lynched yday and appealed to me to quickhammer hoop in the hope she can still lives 1 day, then somehow everyone fliped her read on her and got ate'd pretty hard.

[CloudKicker]

Somewhat comprehensive list of Rask posting yday when she was getting voted by BV+jack+ myself. Shes saying multiple time that she wouldnt mind getting lynched if thats what masons wanted, if it could help town but at the very same time shes ate'ing pretty fucking hard MariaR and BV but not everyone else. She never somewhat reconsidered her hoop fos the whole day but she kept throwing shade at me and even pushed the idea that hoop was the lynch if i was a fake claim, imo thats opening the pool + bad reason to lynch a town for an easy ml -> some comments

Spoiler:

Maria if you're town, I'm town, AND gm is town why has it been so ridiculously hard to push or wagon her this game?

Rask starting to ate maria really hard here.

The problem with selfvoting is it would give people counter-ammunition when I proceed to full-nuclear lash them out postgame

Post-game ate, scummy

You can lose the game, but you can't afford to lose the moral high ground.

Post-game ate, scummy

If you're actually scum though very well done.

Her to BV before the BV mason claim, thats a sort of buddying, its like saying ''I townread you despite you voting me, but in the case you are mafia (implying youre wrong) then you are a very skilled player'' -> trying to reflect the feeling of an outplayed townie who might tr mafia, but this is a textbook scumtell from EM and i do that as mafia all the time because it works

I wonder what your main account is.

Again, buddying, Implying his main is someone skilled, shes implying that shes getting outplayed by possibly a skilled player and is ''curious'' about the main ? I dont think she even asked that in the whole game, she only did when getting heavily fosed by bv and getting lynched ding ding

Without exception though, every time someone's made me legitimately annoyed they have flipped town.

Again, buddying. Implying shes town everytime she go annoyed and that ppl who annoys her ends up flipping town -> buddying. i also use this as scum

Scum are always those friendly quiet guys sticking up for you when you do get totally shafted by the pillars of town
or if they do oppose you are so completely spineless and ineffectual about it you don't notice their little squeaking getting drowned out by everything else

little itty bitty mousies
SQUEAK SQUEAK SQUEAK
cowardice and spinelessness

It's all over GM it's all over hoopla it was sotty in a nutshell

maria has a good scumgame and doesn't act like that as either align and I can't read her for shit so respect that but I don't feel it.

Those last 2 quotes are throwing shade + self meta or trying to influence how people view the gamestate. Shes an experienced player and she sould know thats not how good scum play, imo shes just doing that as to give herself more credit with self-meta while throwing shade, again at gm + hoop and even mariar but in a scummy way, this look like a mariar/rask team-tell where she lefts something ''open'' to interpretation so if she flips its not too obvious, something like that

Meh, if you are town, I basically blew it this entire day phase. You certainly haven't been playing "scummy" or badly. On the contrary, I thought you were being far more reasonable than most. But nothing else makes sense and the teams you are proposing make much less sense than you being scum. I'm still agonizing over this although you can't tell from the way I make pushes and I have D1 open in a separate tab looking for anything that might contradict you being scum.


I don't have a strong townread on Hoopla and it's possible that when she saw herself and Sotty7 both being pressured, they decided a one-way bus of the person who made a PR claim was their best shot. But there's still the way Sotty7 buddied her on D1 and Hoopla never buddied her back that makes me think it was Sotty7-scum and Hoopla-town. I also think that Sotty7 enlisting MariaR's help in pushing Jaack and using her Jaack push as a reason to townread her is something scum do to town. That's more likely than two scum just deciding to push Jaack and townreading each other for making the same push. That leaves us with GM. I'm still looking for any indication that might point her way and coming up short.

BV before pussying out

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65286

Everyone fucked up early but at one point d2-3 scum mutually hard pushed each other.
I preferred lynching the scum I felt more confident on than the other one, but compromised on the other one in meh fashion for the d3 lynch as I saw them as possibly both scum anyways.
And I looked really bad as a partner in that case for that preference.

This guy MagnaOfIllusion just came in before that lynch and was CONSTANTLY pushing me on associations and scumteams for the rest of the game and it was annoying as fuck because it was all earlygame stuff I couldn't say a word to, and eventually the lynchpool d4/pre-lylo boiled down to me and another person I KNEW was town but I had to lynch them over myself because those were the only two options this guy even allowed. He had reasoning like "if it was a really good bus as you theorise then why weren't you convinced by it?" and "oh you defending yourself like this is the classic scum move when they're under pressure" and so on and we kept having arguments where after days and days it broke down and I basically called him ignorant and delusional and he told me to get bent, and literally replacements into the game are what saved me because they had different views and weren't around early. The worst part was scum wasn't even playing well they were actually completely terrible and obvious because it looked like an easy win.

Even I was having some trouble because none of the teams made sense with a third but I followed my individual reads and stuck true, and finally we got the lynch in lylo because he "would feel less bad losing to me-scum than lurkersac obvscummcgee" and didn't even really change his mind, and won right there as it turned out it was actually traitor third in the end (I know this is a HUGE taboo to ever mention or bring up for some reason but fuck it) and if I did a single conciliatory action or listened to anybody else that game was a loss. But in this case the only other viewpoint in the game that remotely makes sense is jaack's.

Shes using others game as to self-meta further, i do that as scum because i change my meta all the time and thats what good scum should do

Maria please go back to hoopla.
Cloud hammer hoopla.

Maria PLEASE put hoopla back to l-1

Sweet fucking jesus I've never seen rask beg before
VOTE: Hoopia

Cloud please hammer hoopla for me.

Rask appealing hard to me and mariar to lynch town!hoop

Rask you realize that you softed pretty darn hard, its not that i dont trust you its just that im not okay quickhammering someone youre strongarming when you were my only somwhwat serious scumread d2 yknow

It's not a quickhammer. She claimed VT, the day is near deadline, and if you don't do it someone will probably unvote and this entire process will repeat itself.

Hoopla, GM, and Sotty7 as the team makes far less sense than Rask, Creature/Michel, and Sotty7. Even if Hoopla is scum, I have a tough time getting to GM-scum. I could be way off track and Rask's passion and persistence has definitely eroded my Rask scumread a bit but he still makes more sense to me than the alternatives.

VOTE: Rask

@Cloud, Hoopla - let's get back here.

Again Bv before pussying out and he was right imo

Actually that was my initial guess before IAI flipped, huh.

Slight scumtell but mafia usually are more conscious about pr reads and whatnot, half the town pushed on BV at some point but she probably knew he was pr from her pov

Just fucking kill me now.

walmart ATE

Get arona to vote me I'm tired of this.

walmart ATE

A game where competence means you "have too much information".

walmart ATE

I've been going on the hope that arona would end up voting hoopla but if you're masons together he's not going to go against you.

walmart ATE

Should lynch hoopla.
Even if cloud is scum he DID NOT create that fakeclaim by itself, hoopla prob drafted it for him to fit mason setup.
{GM, hoopla} >>>> {Cloud, hoopla} ?if cloud is actually fake [GM wouldn't create that fakeclaim either]

Don't think maria is scum anymore.

Again, team telling with mariar + throwing shade at me + using IT as leverage to get a somewhat terrible read on hoop and then to lynch/vote him, THIS POST WAS SCUMMOTIVATED

Offering myself as the lynch at multiple points was pretty much claiming VT though.

She says that but never actually did

[CloudKicker]

So this further proves rask is buddying up to mariar or that theyre both mafia either way i want her gone

[CloudKicker]

id say trying to use it to manipulate and a gain

[CloudKicker]

@Maria creature please vote rask

[CloudKicker]

@GM you should vote rask too

[CloudKicker]

I dont want rask in lylo since i want her lynched this game and id im wrong its better on ml

[CloudKicker]

The lack of tracktion for rask is also pretty odd, if she was town at least one of thr mafia outside would somehow give me support implicitly, something not happening rn because the clear got played

[CloudKicker]

What is more believable ? that 2 scum somehow tred rask and are too deep into their tr or that rask is scum, 1 scum is tring her and only one townie is wrong on her ? ill take my chances

[CloudKicker]

rask is the scum pillar, when she goes down the game is won imo

[CloudKicker]

I agree but i might not be able to lynch her alone bv, since if maria flip town and you die, everyone will push on gm (rask/jack) and if creature is with one of them (rask) then itll be hard

[CloudKicker]

Do you really depend on a Rask flip to solve the game (even a townflip)?

Yes

[CloudKicker]

Rask whats your reads atm, you tried to remove your somehow hard tr on creature magically after the hoop flip, how convenient

[CloudKicker]

true, i have 0 experience with how ppl hammer on forum mafia, on em tho mafia might slowroll just to be sure they have the win tho, if ure really sure ill vote mariar but i want rask

[CloudKicker]

VOTE: MariaR get rask tomorow @bv

[CloudKicker]

L-2

[CloudKicker]

VOTE: rask going back to that until youre decided

[CloudKicker]

@Rask, what's there to like about GM's comments on BBT? If you are talking about post #8, there's nothing in there that's an alignment marker. Just looks like an early vote on someone they played with before and hoping that he is town which is something I could see from either alignment.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

This entire post gives me bad vibes:

I actually like what GM said about BBT

unless it's a super catered pocketing attempt.

Also him saying the game was annoying I think mirrors how I felt about people arguing over the dice,

although that's an assumption.

I'm wondering what the likelihood is micheal would issue that PSA #1 as scum, I think very low.

The only issue is the chance he thought of it from pre-game and planned to say it regardless of role pm, instead of just now (makes sense given the circumstances).

No scumleads yet though.

Too many qualifiers. You undermine pretty much all the points you are making.

^not bad, not bad.

I feel like goodmorning is close to finally cracking and going into full meltdown, but consider me voting for Raskolnikov too.

I actually like what GM said about BBT unless it's a super catered pocketing attempt.

What did you like about it?

Not much has happened so far - we need to get a wagon going.

VOTE: Rask

Beggars can't be choosers.

Unvote, Vote: Raskolnikov

Im trying to reread to get better reads and heres a little something, first 4 posts are ppl starting a wagon on rask
BV town
Hoop town
Creat ?
Sotty scum

It looks like sotty is mafia and jumped on a town wagon right ? thats what i actually thought and was my initial impression and i was kinda happy to see something contradicting myself for once, but if you actually read rask's rxn to the wagon:

I liked it because it's what I thought, I had a lot of trouble with

BBT

our last 2 games. One game it took me 4 days to make my mind up on him, but he mislynched me, next game I mislynched him day 1 and got nightkiilled. The caveat is because it's an assumption I would have to later check it again, but it was okay for early.

CK:This is about rask appealing to creature

Ironically, now that I said that and people actually voted me for it, 47 rubs me the opposite way. People won't like me saying this, but fuck it.

CK:sounds fake af tbh ''i know im scummy but pls dont lynch me''

As for the qualifiers point, this is lame but I do think like that. People hate wishywashyness so much though, sometimes I bury the doubts down and just present a simplified viewpoint to make things easier for people. But then again I've been getting nightkilled early in recent games so this might be for the best.

CK: self meta and what not

Of those on my wagon.

Blackvoid

vote has understandable reasoning and I like him thinking that way.

BBT's

makes sense because he'd probably want to sort me based of our experience, but there are caveats.

twoface/sotty is blank/neutral, I assume the "justification" is to get an early wagon going but I can't read into alignment on that so much.

CK: that looks like she doesnt want to go into a sotty read and ingore it along with twoface (who voted 5th). I think this is a farily classic way for mafia to put their partners in a null catergory or unreadable as to avoid drawing attenion and being locked up in a read

I don't like

hoopla

vote justified on association; If you scumread someone enough this early to look at associations, I think you'd keep pushing them instead. 57 is a little ridiculous.

In my own experience I love to push association tells as scum (because it's easy and low-commitment) and people rarely call you out for pushing things on it.

I also enjoy
a) linking a scumpartner with a townie in associations, best case scenario townie lynch makes the scumpartner look better, worst case scum gets lynched and get the townie in return
b) super scumread a scum for strong reasons but end up pushing/voting town for weak reasons
but in this case, although the switch by hoopla from gm to me is weird I don't think that was distancing. I would imagine goodmorning would have fought hoopla back a bit more if that was the goal, instead of voting victor. Same with goodmorning's comment on being annoyed earlier.

Mostly though, the post saying she feels her scumread is about to crack under pressure but she changes vote is absurd to me. You pressure someone and then right when you feel you're almost there, you switch to something like an weak association as town. I think the frustration in 62 is over the top considering she didn't really put that much effort into changing people's minds. Again, anecdotal, but as scum I love to complain about "oh no I have to do this because everyone else" and not take responsibility or effort into fighting against it and changing people's minds (for obvious reasons)... she didn't really push gm with much effort before complaining like this, if you look at the iso.

VOTE: Hoopla

She pretty much talk about hoop, bv and Creature slot a lot but doesnt talk about sotty/twoface. So even if sotty's vote on her (4th) seems like scum jumping on wagon, rask foses the early voters and ignores the rest, imo the sotty and twoface vote were much more scummy -> she avoid outing a read on it since they voted the same for somewhat the same reason

[CloudKicker]

Votecount 4.01

Raskolnikov (1)

CloudKicker ,

Creature (1)

MariaR ,

MariaR (1)

Creature ,

Not Voting (4)

Raskolnikov , goodmorning , Jaack , BlackVoid ,

Day four deadline is Saturday December 10, 11 PM PST. (expired on 2016-12-10 23:00:00)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!

[/size]

[CloudKicker]

Rask + maria/you/jack in order if im being thorough

[CloudKicker]

Also rask isnt pushing on GM hard today and removed her hard tr on creat, leaving room for her to vote outside

[CloudKicker]

mariar all the teams points to either 1 of you or rask, so if ure town you should be wrong

[CloudKicker]

They arent but rask is scum and if shes not, ure pushing a world where creat/gm is a thing girl

[CloudKicker]

Im saying that your reads points at you being scum, so by definition, if youre town im asking you to revise your reads yknow, thats what town do

[CloudKicker]

Gm wont be lynched before you rask, if anything maria will go first

[CloudKicker]

You're lynching 2 town blackvoid honestly My townread is based on meta and the fact you won't look at other options is why this game is going downhill I suggest you do another re read and come back with an easy because to me were outright going to lose the game the way this is going I shouldn't have unvoted creature instead of hammering hoopia that's my fault lol I don't think you're reading
I think Creature is flipping scum over GM so why do you tr Creature he's been very non consistent the whole game this feels like a fucking set up

Hey mariar, from your pov, if rask is town then both GM + creature are mafia, that means that if mafia isnt hardbussing in a town ml then creature should be confirmed from your pov if jack is town so you should try to get creature today, especially if hes your top sr, that gm vote is ew

[CloudKicker]

Conversely, if GM flips town I'll accept being counterlynched 100% and you can get people to agree as a collective to do that if you want.
It's safer than saying the exact same thing for maria (which is what you're doing) and tbh if I'm wrong on GM I'd probably deserve the loss anyways, whereas I can't really read maria for shit so that doesn't feel fair.

Also this is a scum post, you could self and if ure town we lynch gm and it would make the same results, yet i doubt you would if i promise to vote gm tomorow and try to get them if ure town

[CloudKicker]

And putting youtself in possbile autoloss just because youre wrong on 1 read is scumclaiming and textbook tell

[CloudKicker]

The GM vote isn't ew when GM can be scum with Creature so suck it Cloud

Sonia, theres literraly no reason why ure voting with Scum!rask atm and not vote your natural push from your pov, which is creature

[CloudKicker]

Also, rask hard trs creature for d2, by voting GM shes pretty much calling you mafia mariar but she isnt doubting herself when you are sheeping her and not counterpushing creature, if she was town she would second doubt herself when her tr's (creature) direct cc (mariar) is voting her top scumread (GM)

[CloudKicker]

I might make a more detailed diagram eventually.

[CloudKicker]

Then vote rask and youll be settled

[CloudKicker]

Nah since rask is mafia, both cant be scum

[CloudKicker]

The gm/mariar team doesnt even make sens

[CloudKicker]

@BV i really want rask please

[CloudKicker]

I think he knows i know hes scum and he gave up appealing to me

[CloudKicker]

Waiting for gm wont change my reads imo, either get mariar/rask

[CloudKicker]

WOW CREATURE

[CloudKicker]

Its funny that today's lynch pool [mariar/rask] are both voting the afk, no doubt 1 of them is mafia

[CloudKicker]

^ yep hence the maria/rask today

[CloudKicker]

2 more votes for rask and she makes no comments about her hard tr voting for her lel

[CloudKicker]

I just feel like rask is flip floping really hard, she leaving all the lynch options open and then come back on her ''mistake'' on hoop yday which was more like she hard sred hoop and like i said, she even was 100% sure about creature and appealed to everyone on the table trying to not get lynched, she ated hard and now that hoop fliped shes going back on her creature read right off the bat entering the day, also creature voted rask with me but then switched off to mariar the moment jack did without commenting why he thinks mariar > rask etc. He aslo prefered to vote with jack over me which is again odd. I think rask is going back on her reads, no having a strong stance atm even on gm, leaving everything open so she isnt insta voted if gm flip town. Her going againts mariar rn who voted gm as well, is again, odd. Imo rask is scum with either mariar or creature

[CloudKicker]

Mariar shoudlnt be with creature obviously, today reinforced that read Mariar/creature should be an option.

[CloudKicker]

And bv, you should actually trust my reads i aint bad just cause im new, my whole playstyle is team readings and poe, im a beast in endgame clutches

[CloudKicker]

Actually I still feel like creature is town on a skim.

That would mean mariar is bussing GM over voting the creature lynch further when even if GM flip scum, she prob wont survive independently of her play today, especially with a ml so ur read doesnt work (cause ure mafia )

[CloudKicker]

Focus on the association part. "Rask is confirmed scum from associations" or something like that.

AtE and waffling is also historically annoying but at least when that happens it's super easy to give past-game examples to each, but that doesn't work for associations.

Im just saying your pov doesnt work if you are correct and town

[CloudKicker]

''Rask is confirmed scum or wrong''

[CloudKicker]

You mean correct ? like i said because the creat/mariar cant be a team and you cant be with gm

[CloudKicker]

Like you cannot townread creature here since mariar is voting gm with you and creature voted mariar farily easily, that would point to a creature/gm team and yet you dont seems to doubt yourself ot actually try to read creat. The only thing youve done is 1 liner about how he should be town etc or obscure meta read

[CloudKicker]

So imo, if you are correct about creature being town, then i dont see a mariar/gm team where maria wants gm to flip, because then you would most likely be townread for at the very least 1 day and mariar would get lynched for overall game buddying and so one, as town with towncread youd also defend your creature read -> i would probably lynch mariar if gm flip scum. So mariar bussing here makes 0 sens rask. So if ure town, either creature is scum/scum is bussing in a really bad position/jack is mefia. I doubt scum is bussing in autoloss on ml and i doubt jack is mefia, that leaves creature that you townread

[CloudKicker]

Thats why, if anything, if Jack is town rask/creat theres at least 1 mafia. If creature is mafia that almost clear mariar. If Rask is mafia, that almost clear gm

[CloudKicker]

I would lynch in creat/rask -> If 1 flips town, id lynch the other. If 1 flip mafia, i would clear gm/mariar accordingly for 1 day and then go from there

[CloudKicker]

We could also actually lynch in gm/mariar for the same thing tho i prefer rask for obv reasons

[CloudKicker]

Rask you dont understand, im saying that you arent playing from a town pov or youre calling jack/myself mafia

[CloudKicker]

Why can't Creature/MariaR be a team? That's actually a possibility I'm considering.

Voting pattern. Creature showed that he might want rask with my vote relunctantly, i was alost quite surprised he did but then Jack voted and creature instant voted mariar w/o any comments. A bus here would try to get some towncread with the vote so like something with the vote, no reason to easily hardbus in that situation with a ml and my hardfosing rask. Mariar wanted creature really hard d2 i think then fliped to gm with the rask vote, either mariar is town and genuinely townread rask which would lead to a gm/creature team and make sens or shes mafia with rask imo since bussing here on GM is completly dumb and cant be team with creat

[CloudKicker]

What im saiyng, is 1 of rask/creature should be mafia yet rask tr creature

[CloudKicker]

Gm/jack/mariar/black/myself in order

[CloudKicker]

maybe mariar before jack

[CloudKicker]

There isnt wrong, if mariar is town then creature should be scum with 1 of gm/rask if jack is town

[CloudKicker]

The gm/creature push i didnt read into, but its obvious that on ml creature isnt pushing gm yet voted twice outside, if anything hes teamtelling with rask/gm, again.

[CloudKicker]

It would imply mariar is bussing which doesnt work

[CloudKicker]

Or again, that jack is mafia and i dont believe either

[CloudKicker]

The way i see it:

2 crosses, rask/gm and creature/mariar. Crosses cant both be scum, but they can be both town. If they are both town, it would mean mafia is bussing on a ml or jack is mafia (improbable and bad play)

[CloudKicker]

@mariar idk why youre saying that, ive always been good when i try and dont troll

[CloudKicker]

Yea, thats why the mariar vote on gm just seems really odd

[CloudKicker]

The 2 votes that seems wierd are creature's hop on mariar and mariar vote on gm over creature

[CloudKicker]

A gm flip would make you a direct cc to jack if creature/mariar arent both scum. I feel like gm/rask is a stronger cross than mariar/creature as well

[CloudKicker]

a gm townflip*

[CloudKicker]

@having if ure town i suggest you vote rask and even if ure unsure about her, shes a great lynch atm and she probably wont unvote you at any point in this game so its playing for your wincon regardless of alignement

[CloudKicker]

What do you mean ?

[CloudKicker]

havingfitz GM claimed PR and said she'd out what she was when she came back
care to tell us what pr you are

@having if ure town i suggest you vote rask and even if ure unsure about her, shes a great lynch atm and she probably wont unvote you at any point in this game so its playing for your wincon regardless of alignement

If she (?) is a great lynch why is no one else voting her?

I still need to do a closer read. Right now my main persons of interest are Creature, Maria and atm in 3rd.....Rask. I should have a vote down tomorrow.

@Rask...why are you so committed to lynching me(GM)?

It actually reinforce my read since all the town alive would probably get fosed here yet she isnt, if shes mafia (like i think she is) then mafia probably isnt bussing on ml and the state of the game go hand-in-hand with my read, how convenient

[CloudKicker]

Its also funny the replacement has the same kind of reads, seems odd

[CloudKicker]

Was talking about the order mostly

[CloudKicker]

The whole scum pool minus 1 voting this, again, proves rask is a better lynch

[CloudKicker]

you lost all credibility and power over me when you didnt vote rask, you know, all day

[CloudKicker]

Since when youre ignoring my reads girl

[CloudKicker]

this is getting to the point where we will lynch on the deadline or close to, i dont like it but lets wait for whatever he typed

[CloudKicker]

good post, i didnt personnaly bother with the pr claims since its not so easy to miss, but not reading into a possible is cc is just a huge scumtell/slip