Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

Prism
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Post Post #3150  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:00 pm

Rereading nn's Day 1 I see how it could be an opportunistic vote, as #983, where nn first voted her, is a bit presumptive and is the vote putting her at L-2, but I still am not really sold on it being a bus. If that's all there was, maybe, but nn went ham in #1238 and made repeated posts trying to persuade people like Gamma not to lynch Eager. #1266 is really awkward from boring but she made a lot of awkward posts with basically everyone, and I really liked nn's response to it.

More likely faked than I originally thought? Yeah. Still less likely faked than anything Shadow did? My instinct says yes despite not having reread Shadow in awhile.

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Post Post #3151  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:05 pm

Posts like #1251 not really helping my paranoia of nn's read on me but hopefully that'll be cleared up soon.

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Post Post #3152  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:19 pm

As far as your play, Prism, while I was reading the thread as a spectator, I thought you were probably scum. I stopped reading closely somewhere near the end of D1. I remember second-guessing my original Boring-Prism-LUV scumteam guess when I saw you and Boring pushing LUV together. I wondered if he might be town being pushed by scum but he flipped scum. Boring was a very strong scumread so that remained but I wasn't sure if you were scum or if someone I was townreading was but I felt that I was most likely wrong in my initial guess. I wasn't writing everything down because I thought I might not get a chance to play because of how active everyone was.

Regarding your replace out, everyone wants to be townread for their awesome play and not because of some silly reason like saying they replaced out. But when something like that happens, as town I can't ignore it. I really don't think that if you and Boring were the scumteam and Shadow kept insisting that you be lynched back to back (even if he was a little overconfident about it), I think you'd find some way to wiggle out of it rather than decide to replace out because you got caught. But as town, I could see you in the heat of the moment thinking "that's it, I'm done with this guy" and post a replace out request.

It's not about posting an "easily retractable reason" and then rescinding it. Honestly, as scum I wouldn't even have bothered mentioning that. I haven't actually rescinded my townread on you. My feeling is still the same. The only reason I'm reading the thread is that this is 3-way lylo and it would be irresponsible to vote without thoroughly considering the possibility of you being scum.

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Post Post #3153  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:00 pm

If Shadow was scum, he likes to fly pretty close to the sun.

Also, his actually subbing out would never happen if he was scum.
Spoiler:
In post 1543, Shadow_step wrote:That's a weird kill.
Definitely made to frame boring.

In post 2092, Shadow_step wrote:Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/
VOTE: Nn

In post 2096, Shadow_step wrote:Mind=blown

In post 2209, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2201, podoboq wrote:
Lil Uzi Vert, Mafia Goon, was lynched Day 2.
It is now Night 2. Please PM all night actions to me by the deadline, or bold them in your associated private thread.
Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-29 08:44:00)

Only if bastars mod hadn't put 2 town ascetics, had this scum fuck day 1.

Boring is most likely town.

In post 2294, Shadow_step wrote:I've been giving boring a free pass so far because people seemed to be a soft target and people voting her because of her previous games as scum.
When I attacked LUV on day 1, boring had a "problem" with it.
I think one of [boring, prism] has to be scum because of LUV's readlist.

In post 2466, Shadow_step wrote:I pretty much am confirmed town.


This Boring defense parallel struck me as strikingly similar. When she defends herself from both me and Shadow, her first instinct is to ask 'are you even paying attention?' 'Are you trying?'

Spoiler:
In post 2853, boring wrote:
In post 2849, Shadow_step wrote:Not out of character. DF lynch wasn't likely to happen and I wasn't going to no lynch.

So you think both scum were voting Df but you still vote him anyway?

Are you even trying at this point?

1) I had already stated intent to hammer DF, and he was at L-1. It was absolutely going to happen. Why do you think people fell for your stupid fake-hammer? Remember? You fake-hammered DF, and then you hopped off the wagon first at the least suggestion from Implosion, taking Dier from L-1 with intent to hammer to nothing special.

2) I was talking about the Grendel wagon having 1-2 scum on it. You know, the one that had the conf. town support, and was a counterwagon to DF? The one ripe for sheeping? The one you sheeped? That wagon. Grendel's. Grendel's wagon.

3) I'm voting Dierfire because I think he's scum with you, and I'm waiting for you to ditch his wagon just before the lynch again. Of course, there's also the problem that for reasons far beyond my comprehension, no one seems open to the idea that you're scum. Even if you're just really, really bad town, he remains likely scum. I figure having everyone watch you leave his wagon again will help my case. If you do somehow follow through this time, that's great too. I see it as a win-win.

In post 1266, boring wrote:
In post 1238, nn30 wrote:From before the CC:
Boring was doing little / no scum hunting. She joined the Zoronos wagon (3rd there). Aside from questioning his logic once or twice, she loses interest in Zoronos fairly quickly. She joins the Penguin wagon (also 3rd) and aside from her rainbow read list (putting Penguin as her top scum read) she spends the next 15 posts without engaging with Penguin again.
After the CC:
She votes Eager with little to no thought about the CC (literal minutes between SS announcing and her voting Eager). She drops Eager (previously a 2nd to top town read) to her biggest scum read with little to no explanation, thought, consideration... nada. This feels very opportunistic.
Also, this:
In post 1037, boring wrote:@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).
In post 1165, boring wrote:...
If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
...

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.
Fishy. Fishy fishy.
I had a slight scum read on Boring before the CC. The most quantifiable thing is that her read list felt hinky to me (like she was posting it instead of actually scum hunting). There was also a gut feeling, which is more difficult to quantify.
Snake also pointed out that he parked his vote on Boring the entire day - and nobody nibbled - meaning 0 scum tried to hop onto the wagon and test the waters (implying that Boring herself is scum, causing the lack of interest in her wagon). I like this logic a lot.
Fin.

So, you haven't been paying attention like, at all? Hopefully when this trip is over, I'll have time to go through and show you point-for-point where you've clearly glossed, ignored, and misrepped. I realize this isn't the first time you've gotten totally confused in this game, but geez.
It's like you're pretending to be Zoro, except Zoro actually brought up some valid concerns (unfortunately for me).
Anyway, my request stands. Please wait for me to come back and post if y'all get to the point of intent to hammer on me. Or just lynch eagerSnake. Either one works.



As for Prism:

The bolded in the first quote reads as helly manipulative.

He's apparently forgotten 2927, too.

Spoiler:
In post 3149, Prism wrote:
In post 3148, Prism wrote:The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.
This was supposed to go at the very end of that post, directed at nn, rather than in the middle and directed at BV.


In post 2927, Prism wrote:Alright, that basically removes any doubt I had about the Shadow slot. Black gave that list in 30 mins, there's no way he faked it. Those reads were legit and I doubt it was convenient to keep the same reads as scum. Maybe he could have gone back and revised just one/two but there's no way the whole thing is fake.

I feel bad for DF since I literally have barely read anything he's said and basically haven't even given him a chance, but at this point I really don't think I need to. If boring flips town then I'll be forced to as that means I'm wrong on one of Zoro/nn but I'll cross that bridge if we get there.

VOTE: boring




Yeah I'm seriously considering this path.

@BV - can you explain why you had a scum read on Prism before you entered the game?

I re-read the sub out fiasco. At the moment, it looked like Prism may have wanted to leave because of Shadow's aggressive treatment. Maybe he felt this way because he felt personally attacked - and wanted to sub out - even though he was scum?

That, coupled with the fact that Shadow was a ballsy jerky player all game, why the hell would he sub out if he were scum? The's the kind of person that would LOVE teeing off the town as scum.

Plus there's this.

In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.


You don't say this on your way out as scum. If you're scum, you're secretly happy that I'm lost because you're taking credit for confusing me. You're not going to insult me because you successfully confused me - doing so undermines any confidence you (rightly) should have derived for sending me through so many loops all game if you were scum.

@BV - I think we've been scum reading each other incorrectly. I think that I'm still alive because I'm a bit of a VI (meh...) - Prism felt he could manipulate me with a hard town read on me.

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Post Post #3154  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:41 am

In post 3153, nn30 wrote:If Shadow was scum, he likes to fly pretty close to the sun.
That was always my assumption and why I didn't give it serious consideration until today. CC'ing ascetic is incredibly ballsy. The only way it's possible is through scum making gratuitous use of daychat.

In post 3153, nn30 wrote:Also, his actually subbing out would never happen if he was scum.
Was one of my first thoughts but it was strange to me that he had such a high ego after basically never being right. Despite his statements about "having LUV" he never voted him outside of RVS and boring had yet to flip. His ego made no sense to begin with.

When half the game hates you, you're going to take personal offense regardless of what you are. You're working under the assumption here that I took personal offense despite being scum but not giving the same consideration to Shadow.

I'm not seeing anything town in the first spoiler, #2294 is awful and he spent a decent amount of time trying to get me lynched over boring in #2870, #2882, #2884, and #2888. He only flipped off of you when it became apparent I wasn't budging and it's not really clear when/why he did so if he were town. His appeal to you to lynch me was basically "God you fucking noob can't you understand?" when he literally had no reason whatsoever to be this arrogant. He spent the whole game voting Eager, Gamma, Grendel, and you (nn), and Dierfire-and all but the last two, had flipped town when he was going on his explanationless egokick.

More importantly, why on earth would he replace out if he thought I was scum? Making scum ragequit is a townsperson's wet dream. There's no reason to take offense and replace out when the person you are pushing as scum is taking offense to you supposedly nailing them.

It's obvious he replaced out due to taking personal offense, but this is more likely to happen as mafia, not as town. You replace out if you're feeling disrespected by the town, either as town or mafia, because you're doing what you're supposed to and they're insulting you for it, you don't replace out as town because you think mafia is flailing.

More in a sec.

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Post Post #3155  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:52 am

In post 3153, nn30 wrote:As for Prism:

The bolded in the first quote reads as helly manipulative.
It's my telling you how to get my vote. I know that you can make the logical connection that voting me is a possibility, but why on earth would I encourage you to? I'm not going to let you bark up the wrong tree all day if it's not going to convince me of anything if you're town, it's not a game of "Keep Away"

In post 3153, nn30 wrote:He's apparently forgotten 2927, too.
I said it removed all doubt because I was confident it was Dierfire and anyone who reads my yesterday can see that. When it's not Dierfire, that means that yes, I do have to backtrack, because one of my townreads was completely wrong. Me being wrong doesn't mean it's time to scumread myself. This doesn't work as a defense in my favor because it's something I could do as scum too, but it's very clear that I had to know ahead of time that I would be forced to backtrack on one of these reads were I scum.

Re: Second Spoiler
Some great quotes of boring doing the same against me:
Spoiler: Especially the 3rd/4th ones
In post 622, boring wrote:
In post 614, Prism wrote:I don't think Penguin is undeinably rocksolid town but comparing him to people like Implosion, boring, LUV, Gamma, Maria, or even Grendel he might as well be the Pope.

How on earth is PP less scummy than me? Do you have any decent reasons? Or is it just that I actually bothered to elaborate on my Zoro read like ten pages ago?

Either way, it's lovely to know that someone who apparently exists solely to swipe at low-hanging fruit is totally cool with you.

In post 1965, boring wrote:@Prism, I don't get how you can be sitting on the bandwagon I'm leading and say I'm your second most likely scum. It makes no sense at all. I dug through his ISO and made a case today. I named him as probable scum end of day 2 too. If you really think I'm scum, wouldn't that make you question your read on LUV, of vice versa?

In post 2286, boring wrote:
In post 2278, Prism wrote:VOTE: boring

I do not get the boring townreads at all. Boring was coming off a borderline disastrous Day 1 where she got herself into a 1v1 with someone who flipped town, then had someone who hard scumread her nightkilled. It makes a lot of sense to bus Day 2. Reading boring does nothing to convince me that this isn't the case. The Day 1 pushes people are widely citing are offhanded comments here are there while she pushes someone else. Her end of day suggestion to go on LUV over eager was in #1452, when the vote was 5 eager 3 boring with Eager yet to vote. It was already locked between her and Eager and whether or not she'd lose seemed up in the air. A lot of these newfound townreads on boring are just reflexive reactions to the LUV flip, and at least one of them is coming from scum. I still think Maria dying wasn't a coincidence.

In both these arguments, you're suggesting that I've completely changed my scum-play (and possibly suffered brain damage in the interim). Hard bussing from Day 1 is idiotic. Especially when there are so many bad town running around to provide easy counter wagons. So is killing the person most vocal against you, by the way. Not to mention it being crazy for a scum team to allow that kind of reckless killing pattern.

In post 2278, Prism wrote:Then there's this:
In post 2240, boring wrote:I was expecting you to be dead today too, since going for Gamma would be a huge gamble, but here we are. I agree that it would have been unhelpful to block Gamma on his last productive night. I'm thinking that roleblocker is more likely, by the way.
It's unhelpful to block Gamma last night, and thus Zoronos isn't going to do it. She acknowledges this. If a random town knows it scum knows it. Why did she expect a Gamma death?

I can't even.

Okay, assuming that was a typo, and not a senior moment, there's a difference between suspecting and knowing. There's no way that scum would risk a no-kill night. Unless the scum team can't math. Of course, your assumption that I'm scum seems to be based on the belief that I'm stupid, so maybe simple arithmetic is beyond me. :facepalm:
In post 2384, boring wrote:Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?

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Post Post #3156  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:20 am

In post 3153, nn30 wrote:@BV - I think we've been scum reading each other incorrectly. I think that I'm still alive because I'm a bit of a VI (meh...) - Prism felt he could manipulate me with a hard town read on me.
Every death since N1 has been a PR. When did I mastermind time to keep you alive? I could have pushed you in earlier days for a lynch but I didn't because again, you've been a hard townread. At some point I'm going to have to walk back one of the townreads on you/BV if I'm scum. In that scenario this three way was decided eons ago and I've had weeks to plan it. Hard townreading anyone is a dangerous game, because of cases like this, and because of me being forced by way of being dead wrong to reconsider statements I made with certainty day/days ago.

This means a lot less because it's coming from me but after being tipped off looking for her behaving aggressively towards me, just look at the way boring interacted with me repeatedly.
Spoiler: Lots of quotes
In post 2181, boring wrote:Honestly, I think Prism's copy-cat thing seems a little petty to be the main issue leading to a primary scum read. I've thought LUV was scum most of the game thus far, and I've been glad for the company on his wagon, but I wish Prism was a little less near-sighted with his reasoning.
This is directly discrediting my read on LUV and encouraging me to rethink it without actually coming out against his lynch.
In post 2244, boring wrote:I think the weirdest thing about Prism yesterday, aside from his odd reasoning on LUV, was that he didn't seem bat an eye over LUV's Doc claim. That said, he's still a town lean.
More discrediting even when he flipped scum, but makes it clear she doesn't want to 1v1 me (To see why, who wins if she tries?)

I already linked #2286. She tries to basically shame me into getting off of her and make me doubt myself. It didn't work and immediately she becomes more amicable in future posts as she realizes she's more likely to get results that way:
In post 2384, boring wrote:Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?
In post 2430, boring wrote:@Prism, thank you for understanding, somewhat. Please, do me a favor and give me a tl;dr of the items you feel I've left unaddressed. I'll do my best to go over them one-by-one.

We have plenty of time, so there's no need to rush my lynch. (well, I'd understand PP's urgency, but most of the rest of you can afford the time).
In post 2458, boring wrote:@prism - I don't remember if you've been asked this already. I get that you're all gungho on the boring wagon today, but how are you feeling about PP? If I was off the table, how willing are you to lynch him?
In post 2575, boring wrote:
In post 2572, Prism wrote:
In post 2567, boring wrote:1) It appears that people are using their claim list as a scum-to-town reads list, in which case, here's mine: Penguin, Shadow (already claimed), Dierfire, nn30/Grendel, Prism, Implosion/Zoronos (already claimed).
Why am I so high on this given that you thought my points about you were nonsense, and my reads are close to the reverse of yours?

First, I wouldn't describe our reads as reverse. Yours was Grendel, boring, PenguinPower, Dierfire, Shadow, nn30, which reads like scrambled eggs to me.

Second, thinking you're way off base is different from thinking you're scum. Regardless your rank is less a reflection of you, and more a reflection of the game-state. I think Penguin is the most likely scum, followed by Shadow. Close after that is Dier, whose neutral/null play is concerning. Then nn30's and Grendel's ranks are a bit of a concession to the VCA and POE arguments that can't all be generated by scum. Though while the arguments against nn30 are more likely generated by scum than those against Grendel, nn30 worries me a tiny bit, independently. Though, certainly not enough to leap over my already-bursting scum pool. You're next because you've got nothing particularly scummy going on, and you've banked a few towny moves. Implosion and Zoronos are obviously the highest town, as they're confirmed, and unchallenged JK, respectively.
In post 2645, boring wrote:You have been off in your own world with your cases and reads, which I think indicates a town motivation. Not only that, but you are clearly shooting in the dark, which also indicates town. I know I'm projecting somewhat, but I think you'd be swim more toward the middle if you were scum.
Again trying to loosen my grip while qualifying her stance on me.
In post 2704, boring wrote:
In post 2699, Prism wrote:-I don't get most people's reaction to Grendel, the past few pages of his are all over the place and it reads as trying to dodge autoloss at any cost.

I'm not seeing it. When you have more time, can you explain what you mean?
Sees me being wrong on Grendel and pushes me further along the path while tagging along.
In post 2645, boring wrote:
In post 2927, Prism wrote:Alright, that basically removes any doubt I had about the Shadow slot. Black gave that list in 30 mins, there's no way he faked it. Those reads were legit and I doubt it was convenient to keep the same reads as scum. Maybe he could have gone back and revised just one/two but there's no way the whole thing is fake.

He could very well have made a couple easy tweaks to his "stream of consciousness". Regardless, how long would it take to type something like that up? 5 minutes, if you have an excuse not to edit. There's nothing original in there, either. His every post thus far is middle-of-the-road designed to appease our lovely conf. town.

In post 2931, nn30 wrote:My gut says it's Black Void. Here's why:

In post 2921, BlackVoid wrote:Sure, I can post the stream-of-consciousness notes I took in excel. Not sure how helpful it'll be to read me since I did them all before receiving my role PM but it'll help you see my reasoning.


If you're reading a game and you don't have a role pm, you're a ghost with a town's perspective.

This quote suggests that Black Void's reading of the game changed when he received his role pm - suggesting he received a scum pm.

Thoughts?

I makes me question why you're on my wagon with him if you think he has ulterior motives. Since it's clearly unlikely that I'm SvS with that slot, why not vote Dierfire? He's likely scum in either scenario (me or Blackvoid), and it gives you time to decide what to do next.

We need to have as many scum lynches as town in order to survive to the end (preferably more scum than town!), so we need to lynch the player that's in nearly everyone's bottom two by POE (i.e., DIERFIRE).

p-edit: I started writing this like an hour ago and got distracted. In the meantime, i was ninja'd by like 5 or so posts. Hopefully I haven't posted moot. I'm too pressed for time to read again. I'll try to be back tomorrow. Sorry.
Takes the time to take us to WIFOM city knowing she's going down, her next post is the hammer WIFOM.

Those wound up being a little bit more than just showing her interactions with me but you get the idea. She tried pretty desperately to get me to loosen grip on her, switching even the way she was addressing me when I showed I was more willing to work with her that way (to no avail for her). This doesn't happen in a world with daychat and outlined expectations of what each other are doing.

I still think Dierfire presented a pretty good reason for why I'm town with his analysis of the LUV interactions-LUV trying to evade me and hope nobody listens rather than addressing me directly was telling. While I wound up saving boring with a Grendel lynch Day 3, I don't think any of my interactions with her/LUV were scum interactions or indicative of me bussing. Of course I'm going to think that, but this is my attempt to back that up from a more objective standpoint, whether it's successful or not.

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Post Post #3157  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:33 am

I also want to know how I went from "God behind a keyboard" to "Probably scum" so quickly. The replace out reasoning you gave applies better in reverse against Shadow, and is less likely to come from me as scum as BV pointed out. You didn't even look at boring's interactions with me.

Really not doing wonders for my paranoia that your townread on me was just pingponging it back to me. You've used the same phrasing but clearly have a different mindset about it, my mindset is hard to explain but when I find something incriminating with you my first instinct is to find something that must balance it out or point to it being less than I think, rather than not comparing it to anything at all and taking it at surface level.

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Post Post #3158  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:27 am

In post 3152, BlackVoid wrote:Regarding your replace out, everyone wants to be townread for their awesome play and not because of some silly reason like saying they replaced out. But when something like that happens, as town I can't ignore it. I really don't think that if you and Boring were the scumteam and Shadow kept insisting that you be lynched back to back (even if he was a little overconfident about it), I think you'd find some way to wiggle out of it rather than decide to replace out because you got caught. But as town, I could see you in the heat of the moment thinking "that's it, I'm done with this guy" and post a replace out request.
I understand why even if it's not my favorite, I'm not disputing that it's a valid read.
In post 3152, BlackVoid wrote:As far as your play, Prism, while I was reading the thread as a spectator, I thought you were probably scum. I stopped reading closely somewhere near the end of D1. I remember second-guessing my original Boring-Prism-LUV scumteam guess when I saw you and Boring pushing LUV together. I wondered if he might be town being pushed by scum but he flipped scum. Boring was a very strong scumread so that remained but I wasn't sure if you were scum or if someone I was townreading was but I felt that I was most likely wrong in my initial guess. I wasn't writing everything down because I thought I might not get a chance to play because of how active everyone was.

It's not about posting an "easily retractable reason" and then rescinding it. Honestly, as scum I wouldn't even have bothered mentioning that. I haven't actually rescinded my townread on you. My feeling is still the same. The only reason I'm reading the thread is that this is 3-way lylo and it would be irresponsible to vote without thoroughly considering the possibility of you being scum.
I realize you haven't retracted it-I'm stating why I don't townread you as strongly as I did towards the end of yesterday. You can wind up retracting your townread on me and still wind up town, and you can wind up keeping it and still be scum. My problem with your prior post is that it seemed to forget that the first part of this was true, ie. you should expect to find the reread scummy FYPOV. I'm wary of basically recycling your old reasoning but now saying "Oh yeah but it overpowers the replace out attempt now" (whereas before it was the opposite). This is all speculative on my end-the point is that I townread you for it before, but now I'm the one walking it back.

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Post Post #3159  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:36 am

Official Vote Count 6.01
LynchingWith 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Anybody (0):

Not Voting (3): BlackVoid, nn30, Prism


Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-14 08:15:00)
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

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Post Post #3160  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:38 pm

I would like BV's reaction before I engage with you Prism.

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Post Post #3161  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:04 pm

In post 3157, Prism wrote:Really not doing wonders for my paranoia that your townread on me was just pingponging it back to me.


If you're town - you have to understand that it is in both of our best interests to sufficiently vet one another.

If you're scum - this vague 'quit scum reading me or else' threat isn't going to work.

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Post Post #3162  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:18 pm

Not convinced. Just seems like you trying to look town by considering both options.

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Post Post #3163  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:48 pm

In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.


@BV

The above quote is the strongest reason I have to believe you're town. It's so strong that I back-tracked on my Prism town read due to it.

1) Do you feel that my reading of this quote is accurate? Why or why not?


2) If you think the above quote is a good reason to town read you, the onus is on me to earn a town read from you. I obviously have my work cut out.

For the moment I'm still interested in why you were scum reading Prism before you entered the game - I'd like to talk about that.

Prism
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Post Post #3164  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:02 pm

In post 3161, nn30 wrote:If you're town - you have to understand that it is in both of our best interests to sufficiently vet one another.
That post wasn't just vetting me, it was a complete flip.
In post 3161, nn30 wrote:If you're scum - this vague 'quit scum reading me or else' threat isn't going to work.
It's again me telling you that I think you've been reflecting my own read/reasoning on you back to me, and that I want more. I've said it 3x now.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3165  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:08 pm

In post 3163, nn30 wrote:
In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.


@BV

The above quote is the strongest reason I have to believe you're town. It's so strong that I back-tracked on my Prism town read due to it.

1) Do you feel that my reading of this quote is accurate? Why or why not?


2) If you think the above quote is a good reason to town read you, the onus is on me to earn a town read from you. I obviously have my work cut out.

For the moment I'm still interested in why you were scum reading Prism before you entered the game - I'd like to talk about that.

I actually agree that I don't think Shadow would have been frustrated in quite the same manner if he were scum. I wouldn't say it's the strongest reason I've townread him. It's his general demeanor and high confidence as well as how hard and how genuinely he pushed that Eager lynch that I found most town when I didn't know his alignment.

My scumread on Prism was based mostly off of his Implosion push. Contrary to most of the game, I thought Implosion was not only town but one of the few voices of sanity that was making sense in a chaotic game. I looked at any case on him negatively and at some points, even wondered if Zoronos was hamming it on pointlessly complaining about Implosion writing words but not saying much - when in reality, he was saying a lot of good stuff. But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.

Prism
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Post Post #3166  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:09 pm

To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.

nn30
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Post Post #3167  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:50 pm

In post 3166, Prism wrote:To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.

@Prism - if I'm the last remaining scum and I read this from a townie:

In post 3149, Prism wrote:
In post 3148, Prism wrote:The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.


I'd say 'yeah mean, I'm town look at me! oooohhhh look how scummy BV is!'

And then I'd take that check and cash it at the bank for a free Win.

By creating my best scum case on you, I've taken that olive branch and thrown it to the ground. I'm taking the path of least resistance and, frankly, you should be town reading me for it.

Your above quote DOES mean that if I wanted to I could have taken your vote on BV for granted. I didn't do that.

In post 3166, Prism wrote:To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.


Take a look at my cases on Dierfire, Grendel, and Zoronos. This behavior has been my MO all game. You just never noticed beccause my case-building never landed on you.

@BV - Take a look back at Prism's ISO. His first post of the game is a vote for Boring, then his second post of the game () contains a weak walk back on his scum read of Boring, possible FoS on LUV, and a vote for Implosion.

For him to enter the game, peg two scum in the way that he did, and end up on the Eager wagon () is bizarre.

He began D3 with a fairly strong scum read on Boring (). Yet, directly following that vote, he spends a lot of time and energy on other people until finally he switches over to Grendel .

The chain of posts I just linked to were in chronological order starting with his vote for Boring in and ended with his vote on Grendel in .

For somebody who felt strong enough to vote for Boring, he didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to gather votes onto her. He mostly just argues with other people about unrelated things.

This line of play could obviously come from town. But... the more I read it the more it feels scummy to me.

@Town!Prism - don't take this as a sleight against you. I'm doing my due dilligence here.
@Town!BV - don't let your conf!bias goggles obscure what I'm trying to put in front of you. Is this case on Prism really bad? Or are you discounting it because you're scum reading me?

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3168  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:55 pm

In post 3167, nn30 wrote:you should be town reading me for it.

This seems to be the reason you did it though. I think you wanted the "why would nn30 go for Prism if he were scum rather than try to get his vote?" cred.

Prism
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Post Post #3169  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:55 pm

In post 3165, BlackVoid wrote:I actually agree that I don't think Shadow would have been frustrated in quite the same manner if he were scum. I wouldn't say it's the strongest reason I've townread him. It's his general demeanor and high confidence as well as how hard and how genuinely he pushed that Eager lynch that I found most town when I didn't know his alignment.
I disagree strongly on the Shadow replace out point. I didn't really think that much of it until nn brought it up but after chewing on it for the past few days it makes less and less sense for me as for why he replaced out if he were town.

If he's town who thinks he's nailed the scum he's got scum flailing and even trying to replace out out of frustration with him. While I wasn't the only one hounding him, nn was too, it's apparent based off the followup post that he did it with me in mind.

His post itself is completely bullshit. It's possible he was really that delusional but who on earth reads Shadow's ISO and agrees with this conclusion:
In post 2890, Shadow_step wrote:I can't take this constant misrep and insult of my play when I'm not being arrgant or cocky at all. I can't help it if people perceive it that way.
Some highlights of Shadow's humble play:
In post 2748, Shadow_step wrote:Don't want to start a dick measuring contest, but I'm better than you at Mafia. And nowhere near useless as shit. Get your head out of your ass.
In post 2882, Shadow_step wrote::facepalm: :facepalm:

Why are you so horrible at seeing the obvious.
Gawd I hate newbies.
And the post nn keeps referring to, coming right after explaining how he hasn't been arrogant at all all game:
In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.
There was again 0 reason for him to ever be this arrogant as town. He never voted or led on mafia, being on town wagon after town wagon. He spent the whole game tunneling nn, taking eons to switch.

It is again possible that he really was this delusional/forgetful about his own statements, but given the context of the replace out I'm finding it unlikely. He's nailed me in his eyes, he's got me flailing, why replace out? Why is he taking so much offense to something scum is saying to discredit him? Why is he even this arrogant to begin with?

He obviously thought he was doing his job and doing it very well and getting trashed for it. He wasn't doing his job well all game unless he was mafia, and thinking he was doing well at that instant just makes replacing out make less sense. Possible explanations for doing this as scum are 1. Feeling prideful because as scum he would be doing a great job and was just getting trashed for it, which grates on any player 2. Recognizing he was ruining the game for me and taking trying to piss me/nn off too far. I imagine it's a bit of a combination but probably moreso #1 if the Shadow/BV slot is scum.

Prism
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Post Post #3170  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:56 pm

In post 3165, BlackVoid wrote:My scumread on Prism was based mostly off of his Implosion push. Contrary to most of the game, I thought Implosion was not only town but one of the few voices of sanity that was making sense in a chaotic game. I looked at any case on him negatively and at some points, even wondered if Zoronos was hamming it on pointlessly complaining about Implosion writing words but not saying much - when in reality, he was saying a lot of good stuff.
I can't remember exactly what it was that pinged me on Implosion because it was so long ago but in general I'm very wary of making sense as being a towntell. Implosion was noticeably competent, and a lot of his posts were reaching vastly different conclusions from my own or making distinctions that I didn't agree with. The one that I most remember is that he scumread someone for inconsistency even when that inconsistency was much more likely from a town perspective-and later he affirmed that inconsistency itself wasn't a scumtell. He was rational and is good at the game, but neither of those decided his role PM, and everyone else was giving him largely a free pass for those things.
In post 3165, BlackVoid wrote:But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.
This isn't consistent with what you said when you first replaced in:
In post 2899, BlackVoid wrote:I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.
Your reaction to nn is what I expect out of you as both alignments.

Prism
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Post Post #3171  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:02 pm

The biggest reason for me to townread the BV/Shadow slot is still the ascetic claim itself so I'm probably going to go over that some more soon.

nn30
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Post Post #3172  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:09 pm

In post 3168, BlackVoid wrote:
In post 3167, nn30 wrote:you should be town reading me for it.

This seems to be the reason you did it though. I think you wanted the "why would nn30 go for Prism if he were scum rather than try to get his vote?" cred.


It isn't the reason I did it though.

PLUS

I had no need to do it. A scum!Nn30 wouldn't need to take this unconventional tact to win the game.

I'd have just tunneled you into the ground after what Prism told me in

nn30
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Post Post #3173  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:11 pm

In post 3169, Prism wrote:He spent the whole game tunneling nn


This isn't accurate.

D1 he had me as basically conf!town.

It was only after I started to get pissed at his arrogance did he start suspecting me as scum.

nn30
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Post Post #3174  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:12 pm

@Prism - your entire feeling towards shadow in is predicated on Shadow having enough self-awareness to know how arrogant he was being.

He did not have this self-awareness.

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