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Post Post #2175 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:00 pm

Post by Ankamius »

I've played 10 support games now and can confirm that its a lot less frustrating to play than ADC is.

It also helps that every random ADC I've gotten so far was either polite or a mute.
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Post Post #2176 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:35 pm

Post by Maestro »

In post 2175, Ankamius wrote:polite or a mute
I'd take the former over the latter almost all the time.

And I don't even have to speak in hypotheticals. I'm not sure I'd be positive which one it was if I looked over my history, but I distinctly remember a very polite and fun and encouraging Caitlyn (maybe?) who wasn't too good at being an ADC, but it was just an enjoyable lane and I really didn't care about my rank so I had fun, made some good plays (IIRC) and we did ok. No idea if we won or if the sunshine and rainbows was specific to laning with her.
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Post Post #2177 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:40 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

Yeah well i don't think any ADC main is polite simply because of riot screwing them so hard and often these days.
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Post Post #2178 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:40 pm

Post by mykonian »

At some point I did the exact opposite. ADC's get it to so easy. Get farmed, group up, don't die, if you live, shoot towers. Follow someone around the map. In stead of getting fed by your support/jungler, then trying to outplay whoever 1v2, dying, and blaming peel wasn't happening, or pushing some sidelane for that next item. Don't think, you've got teammates for that.
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Post Post #2179 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:51 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Adc is frustrating because it takes remarkably little to get screwed over in a game and be useless. Plus there's the ever-annoying situation of losing lane and being unable to farm at all because of constant fights and/or having to compete with the rest of your team for farm.

Regarding random ADCs, I don't really care whether of the two I get. As long as I'm not being raged at, they can do whatever they want. I go into support games willing to sacrifice what I need to in order to win and getting slapped in the face despite that doesn't impress me.
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Post Post #2180 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:54 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 2178, mykonian wrote:At some point I did the exact opposite. ADC's get it to so easy. Get farmed, group up, don't die, if you live, shoot towers. Follow someone around the map. In stead of getting fed by your support/jungler, then trying to outplay whoever 1v2, dying, and blaming peel wasn't happening, or pushing some sidelane for that next item. Don't think, you've got teammates for that.
The two highest skill cap roles in the game is jungle and ADC.
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Post Post #2181 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:57 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 2177, JasonWazza wrote:Yeah well i don't think any ADC main is polite simply because of riot screwing them so hard and often these days.
The last random Adc I got said literally nothing all game except to praise me after I said my bad for taking the first kill in the lane. Granted, I was still pressuring Vayne enough to make her not take advantage of Ezreals power through, so.

They still exist at least.
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Post Post #2182 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:54 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 2178, mykonian wrote:At some point I did the exact opposite. ADC's get it to so easy. Get farmed, group up,
don't die
, if you live, shoot towers. Follow someone around the map. In stead of getting fed by your support/jungler, then trying to outplay whoever 1v2, dying, and blaming peel wasn't happening, or pushing some sidelane for that next item. Don't think, you've got teammates for that.
Don't die while you have all the assassin's, all the tanks, all the fighters, all moving on you to kill you, many times at least one of these groups will be fed as well.

The amount of times i just play "fuck the vayne ADC because your playing vayne and need to be dumpstered" is getting to be staggering, and the nerfs she is getting isn't enough to stop me just automatically doing this.
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Post Post #2183 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:47 pm

Post by zoraster »

what exactly do you hope to play against as an ADC if you think assassins, tanks and fighters are ganging up on you?
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Post Post #2184 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:59 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Everyone gangs up on ADCs. The problem is surviving them while also still being able to do anything.
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Post Post #2185 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:27 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 2180, Ankamius wrote:
In post 2178, mykonian wrote:At some point I did the exact opposite. ADC's get it to so easy. Get farmed, group up, don't die, if you live, shoot towers. Follow someone around the map. In stead of getting fed by your support/jungler, then trying to outplay whoever 1v2, dying, and blaming peel wasn't happening, or pushing some sidelane for that next item. Don't think, you've got teammates for that.
The two highest skill cap roles in the game is jungle and ADC.
I'd love to hear your arguments for this one. Like given you include jungle, I don't imagine you are talking mechanics, but choice. Now jungle I'd agree on with you, but after that mid and support seem to have bigger choice trees than ADC to me. Now you would have a lot of depth in your choice as ADC, given you played that role for ages, but I can't see it atm.
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Post Post #2186 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:59 am

Post by JasonWazza »

Myko it's generally a 2 way skill cap.

Jungle is heavy on the Macro play, and is very difficult in this aspect.

ADC is heavy on the Micro play.
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Post Post #2187 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:29 am

Post by RayFrost »

Utility supports are the heaviest skillcap in the game.

You have to handle your micro play which is adjusted to the micro play of your adc and handle macro play that is adjusted to the macro play of your team.

Bam.
don't you feel silly now?
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Post Post #2188 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:57 am

Post by Ankamius »

Support is one of the roles that is supposed to be directing the macro play, though.
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Post Post #2189 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:12 am

Post by Ankamius »

In post 2185, mykonian wrote:
In post 2180, Ankamius wrote:
In post 2178, mykonian wrote:At some point I did the exact opposite. ADC's get it to so easy. Get farmed, group up, don't die, if you live, shoot towers. Follow someone around the map. In stead of getting fed by your support/jungler, then trying to outplay whoever 1v2, dying, and blaming peel wasn't happening, or pushing some sidelane for that next item. Don't think, you've got teammates for that.
The two highest skill cap roles in the game is jungle and ADC.
I'd love to hear your arguments for this one. Like given you include jungle, I don't imagine you are talking mechanics, but choice. Now jungle I'd agree on with you, but after that mid and support seem to have bigger choice trees than ADC to me. Now you would have a lot of depth in your choice as ADC, given you played that role for ages, but I can't see it atm.
ADC is the only role that can't snowball by roaming to gank other lanes and get them ahead. They snowball by roaming to other lanes and pushing down all the turrets and taking every objective on the map. This is despite the fact that the majority of them are outscaled by just about everybody else in the early-mid game, so you have to be very smart about rotating or making sure that you have backup to provide a real threat if the enemy team doesn't send more than one person to stop you.

You also have to be able to find ways to farm even when you're very behind, because you're already very weak compared to everyone else in that state and most people would froth at the mouth to take advantage of that. It's the support's job to give you opportunities to farm if they're not there with you (and they probably shouldn't be if you lost lane that hard and got pushed in), but you need to be able to take advantage of that to the best of your ability since you're basically nothing without gold.

The most important part is having the mechanical skill to be able to have an impact in teamfights since one small mistake means you're instantly dead and in late game teamfights, that's enough to lose you the game. There's a ton more to teamfighting, but this is the primary thing that makes ADC so difficult to master. It takes a lot of balls to be able to stand next to a Malphite that has no CDs in order to assassinate the enemy ADC to win a fight when it's necessary, but you have to be able to make accurate decisions like that within a split second where you completely throw the game if you make the wrong one.

There's also the part where it's extremely difficult to heavily impact the game as ADC all the way to a win unless your skill level is just that far above the rest of the game.
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Post Post #2190 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:17 am

Post by mykonian »

I mean, I get what you are saying, and quoting you doesn't make my perspective clearer, I guess.

Your conclusion, that it's hard to impact a game as adc all the way to a win, I can sympathise. You can't force teamfights to capitalise on opportunities (unless you are ashe, jhin or sivir), and since people don't realise they kind of need you for objectives you do have to follow them around. I agree that your way to push your advantage is to move to a different lane/part of the map and take objectives. But, and I guess that's the difference in perspective, to a certain point I don't feel the need to min/max everything. As a support or tank, I saw adc's splitpush too far to "catch up in farm", dive off to do golems on the other side of the map in midgame, dive through teamfights for a kill on their adc, trying to dodge out skillshots on their apc or something, while really all I needed for them to do was to kill their tank since nobody else could, clear the wave in mid because that's where the opponents were pushing. I have jokingly called myself the waveclear support, but there was some core of truth in there. Clear the waves, be their with a teamfight, spend your time shooting whatever, and don't dive in unless all other options suck.

So idk, the limited options you get to outplay your opponent feel like it makes it less intensive somehow? I admit that it's really easy to mess up, you see adcs die stupidly all the time. As for people diving you, you have other dudes for that, not as much your problem, they get to outplay that apc/bruiser/assassin, it rarely feels like you have to be the one actively outplaying your opponent as adc, if it got that far you are already in a less than favourable situation as an adc that's alive is more threatening on the map than any other champion, given how well it takes objectives. A 50/50 means the expected value is good for your opponent, and screw that.

But I get that this comes from a perspective where I also simply could not maximise everything, not being an adc main for most of my lol carreer.
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Post Post #2191 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:23 am

Post by Ankamius »

Being able to keep up in farm and still be around for the majority of the fights going on in the midgame and beyond is a skill that's very difficult to get to as well, but it's one that gets easier over time as people start to understand how to play the map and maximize the amount of minions the team is killing as a whole. I have had plenty of games where I lose bot lane and mid/top both snowball, but I still struggle to ever get any farm solely because I can't ever get to any minions waves before the other laners do, or the only minions that are available are being escorted by 2-3 enemy champions, or the support is on the other side of the map and my side of the map is completely dark, or several other things. The worst games are those where the mid/top laner eventually fall off and I'm too far behind to pick up the slack because I haven't been able to farm.

It's basically a fact that ADC builds are the most expensive builds of every role for how much time it takes for them to start being effective. With the ghostblade build completely dead on most adcs, most everyone is going builds that only start spiking at 2-3 items, which are both expensive in their own right. Now try hitting those power spikes when the rest of the map is looking for opportunities to come down and ruin your entire day.

It's one of those things where it seems like it isn't that difficult since you have a whole second person who generally is there to protect you and give you opportunities to farm throughout the entire game, but you have to be able to handle pressure and gain whatever advantages you possibly can despite that pressure, since any competent team is going to be looking for opportunities to catch you since you're almost always the most vulnerable person on the team. No other role has that attached to them since most junglers and toplaners have the ability to build tanky and still be useful and most midlaners are still able to either stall out a game with waveclear or build more utility-type items to stay relevant despite being behind. ADCs can't get away with not building for damage and they can't build for utility beyond what their kit allows since their purpose is damage.
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Post Post #2192 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:47 am

Post by KaleiÐoscøpe »

I've come to the conclusion that as support, it doesn't fucking matter what you play in gold. I have a 100% winrate on warwick support because people are stupid
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Post Post #2193 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:50 pm

Post by hiplop »

adc the easiest, lowest skilled position imo
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Post Post #2194 (ISO) » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:29 pm

Post by mykonian »

In post 2192, KaleiÐoscøpe wrote:I've come to the conclusion that as support, it doesn't fucking matter what you play in gold. I have a 100% winrate on warwick support because people are stupid
I can extend this. I'm currently on a smurf with hybrid pen/regen/cdr rune support shaco and unless I'm playing with a vayne main who tend to tilt the moment champ select ends, laning phase ranges from fine to winning, mid/late game opposing supports seem to be lost at what to do. My main there is gold 5, on trick pony shaco support with silly runes smurf is silver 1 and climbing.

To a point it doesn't matter what you play, what your runes and masteries are, basics carry you quite far.
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Post Post #2195 (ISO) » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:35 pm

Post by mykonian »

In post 2191, Ankamius wrote:Being able to keep up in farm and still be around for the majority of the fights going on in the midgame and beyond is a skill that's very difficult to get to as well, but it's one that gets easier over time as people start to understand how to play the map and maximize the amount of minions the team is killing as a whole. I have had plenty of games where I lose bot lane and mid/top both snowball, but I still struggle to ever get any farm solely because I can't ever get to any minions waves before the other laners do, or the only minions that are available are being escorted by 2-3 enemy champions, or the support is on the other side of the map and my side of the map is completely dark, or several other things. The worst games are those where the mid/top laner eventually fall off and I'm too far behind to pick up the slack because I haven't been able to farm.
I get this. I mean, from my point of view the thing I picked up last and even then got wrong when I was solidly focussing on it was when I could let my adc go and when I really needed to be there. Still don't think I get that 100% right. But the latter part is on the team, I think. If the side is dark but that's where the farm is, you have to help your adc out, he has to have places where he can shoot things. But mostly, stupid simple stuff, if mid is winning and you aren't, the moment towers drop get him in the long lane and get your adc in the center where the jungler and support get to look after him, while the fed mid carry gets to play and extend his lead in a lane where that's much easier. But you have to enable your adc to do this for you, yes.
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Post Post #2196 (ISO) » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:03 pm

Post by zoraster »

ADCs tend to do well at the very top of the ladder. Last I checked they comprise a heavy portion of challengers, which indicates that it's a place where the skill differential matters.

That said, that's them and we're us.
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Post Post #2197 (ISO) » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:05 pm

Post by FakeGod »

myko have you ever played AP Garen
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Post Post #2198 (ISO) » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:09 pm

Post by zoraster »

he doesn't have a single thing that scales with AP.
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Post Post #2199 (ISO) » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:11 pm

Post by FakeGod »

buy lich bane

get your own scaling

forge your destiny
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