Mini 1860 - Game Over!

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Gamma
This time don't lynch pinger when you literally GOT PINGED and forgot about it

[Raskolnikov]

Hey guys what do you call it when something's pretty funny but you're also still kind of salty so you don't laugh that hard

[Raskolnikov]

Why is there a greyice alt in this game.

[Raskolnikov]

I actually think keyen could be scum here

[Raskolnikov]

Keyen say something interesting so I can judge it.

[Raskolnikov]

Which part specifically looks genuine to you?

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE: TwoFace
Meme is stale now.

This unvote is weird.

[Raskolnikov]

Either keyenpeydee hasn't been lynched yet because scum don't want to lynch their buddy, or people are being cautious.
One of the two, really...

What's your mafia experience?

[Raskolnikov]

Why am I scummy? @whoeversaidthat

You sound awkward and come off pretty self-conscious, in particular you play it cool in your reaction and pretend like you aren't nervous when it feels like the complete opposite.

You have any thoughts on the game so far?

[Raskolnikov]

I feel like voting without reading the keyen-gear meta for what gear mentioned would be somehow irresponsible but at the same time I really can't be bothered to do meta research this early into a game

[Raskolnikov]

I want to see more of psychodave.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Gear
Voting TwoFace arbitrarily looks bad to me. You should be able to tell that Dave's post is one of someone who is more used to a faster paced mafia environment where random speedwagons are common D1, so he shouldn't be a consideration.

Lol WTF what kind of expectations are these
Clearly, you should be able to infer from the style of his posting that he is from a faster paced environment, and in such environments speedwagons are more common, so he shouldn't be a consideration for you based on that.
Jesus christ what is this projection do you actually expect this much out of people?
Not to mention that even if true that doesn't somehow clear, it would just make the thing nullish.

[Raskolnikov]

Voting TwoFace arbitrarily looks bad to me.

This is the part you should expand on. Although if you had a legitimate complaint about gear it should probably be how fast the meta read came when what keyen did wasn't even much of an omgus. That added reasoning about what he said of dave is ridiculous though and if not stretching is super ultra naive.

[Raskolnikov]

For future reference, this is why you don't timewarp.

[Raskolnikov]

It's when you respond/react to things in the past without catching up. In this case that exact question was asked and answered since that post but he missed it.

This one is super minor and I was mostly poking fun but when people actually do it hardcore is when it gets really ridiculous.

[Raskolnikov]

Man this feels like a newbie game lol.

[Raskolnikov]

I also see a lot of 'your post isn't worthy, my post is!' Raskolnikov for instance making Lil Uzi apologize. Why are you backing down Lil Uzi? What exactly is wrong with you posting your running thoughts as you catch up? More posts only help garner reads. Anyone trying to shut you down without reason should be suspect.

My bad, I do come off condescending a lot and I have to work on that. Wasn't intending to shut down lil or deny him a voice or something like that lol.

Man this feels like a newbie game lol.

How so? Explain your feels

Just the discussion on theory and basics like when to use meta being as much of a focus as it is. Was a throwaway comment not a super vital gamebreaking observation

[Raskolnikov]

@Kyouko I think you are just reading too far into it out of what looks like eagerness. I've played a bit and I hesitate making that same judgement you are (it's giving the benefit of the doubt at any rate) and even those who'd agree wouldn't go as far as to say it's obvious or clear. IMO it's giving people too much credit on both counts, on the assessment itself and given that, that people would think the same and reach your conclusion.

However, by choosing arbitrarily he implies that they are equally suspicious, or at least that they are close to the same level of suspicion.

This part too, most people do just go willynilly if it's earlygame rvs-ish there to vote for the sake of it, and your approach/analysis here would fit more in a later-day context. IOW you're probably better questioning/wide-focus this point as you run a risk overanalysing shallow things if you go that deep this early.

[Raskolnikov]

if key flips scum, keep an eye on tywin.

If key flips town?

What's your opinion?

[Raskolnikov]

It's just much more like saying that he's scum because it's what he's doing to all players when we're scum together.

Can you be more specific?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: keyen

Explain your gear jarjar and tywin reads for me.

[Raskolnikov]

I caught up and still have null reads on pretty much everyone...

1. Why did you unvote twoface when you did?
2. What do you mean in 63?
3. There have been several exchanges by now to judge and the keyen wagon and you don't have any comment on any of it?

[Raskolnikov]

@Lil what are your thoughts on keyen etc?

[Raskolnikov]

I looked at keyen-gear game and he was pretty lynchbait there so I like gear personally saying we should treat him with kids gloves though I still think keyen's legit scummy here.
In that game with vijayanagar he did clean sweep though which feels amusing. More votes would be good at this stage I think.

As a side note, the problem with bringing out meta that early is that now keyen actually did start to be omgusy but it's invalid because it was after gear brought it up so meh.

[Raskolnikov]

Fuck meta though for now, too problematic. Let's what he promised tomorrow.

[Raskolnikov]

Why aren't you taking a stance on the keyen wagon?

[Raskolnikov]

Your focus is baffling given what's happened in this game.

[Raskolnikov]

So do you think gear's scum too or?

[Raskolnikov]

Gamma did you come to that conclusion in the 3 minutes of ISOing you had?

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not your buddy, friend.

[Raskolnikov]

Ok Gamma it's good you're sharing now, especially if you have an opinion on leading wagon voicing that.

My concern now though is you were pretty nonchalant up until I asked you and then sprung to life with the superfast iso and team judgement after I asked what you thought of keyen wagon. In other words you didn't seem interested in what was going on until you felt eyes on you.

If you think jarjar/gear are both scum off this you should look at everything they did and give more analysis on it.

[Raskolnikov]

Huh, didn't realize this wagon was this big.

Jarjar isn't getting lynched btw, I wanted gamma's vote/case there for gamma's own sake not as an actual consideration.

[Raskolnikov]

People who I'd consider good votes atm:
keyen
psychodave
gamma emerald

[Raskolnikov]

Also grey looks like an alt of someone very experienced (who I may or may not know) and sounds confident but isn't necessarily having the equivalent level of impact.

[Raskolnikov]

Nah it's not greyice lol, that was an rvs poke, greyice is temp banned so it'd be against site rules for him. Someone else.

[Raskolnikov]

Anyways that's like, a side point.

[Raskolnikov]

One of the best towntells is when you scumread someone but don't explain it and then someone comes along and explains it and it's what you have. I call it mirroring and it's what looks like what jarjar experienced.

I know it's awkward looking for you guys but I buy it.

[Raskolnikov]

If not, why did you ignore his tr on you but not vijarada's?

?

[Raskolnikov]

Trying to make sense of this. Raskol, why isn't jarjar being lynched? This doesn't look right

Because I don't want it, and I can be pretty influential when I want to be.

[Raskolnikov]

Everyone please, I've played with jarjar multiple times and he rubs a few people the wrong way every time with his somewhat "harsh" or judgmental-looking demeanor. I don't think he's scum here.

[Raskolnikov]

That's not very specific.

[Raskolnikov]

I've played with him before too, doesn't change the fact he feels scummy here regardless

Distancing judgement this earlygame too is weak especially when you haven't done the due diligence on it either. If you think someone is scum for what looks like "shoddy distancing" you do the follow up and read the other person (gear) too in a more comprehensive way. You're not even looking to see more information from him it seems, but decided what you did incredibly fast and easily.

[Raskolnikov]

Huh. Well I can see where your coming from at least then, though I still disagree.

[Raskolnikov]

Jar has been asking a lot of questions and not giving answers. But, if you inspect his reads, they make sense. I can see why he's voting Key (even though I kinda disagree right now) And he also has a tr on tywin, which I can also see why he TRs tywin.

Wanna cw JJD wagon?

[Raskolnikov]

There are other reasons and I addressed them too.

[Raskolnikov]

Idk about "unable", when you don't say something it doesn't necessarily mean you can't say it especially earlygame.

I think you misread the latter thing too, it was referring to me questioning vijagar's townread onto keyen.

[Raskolnikov]

I just read Gear's iso which is full of Keyen meta whatever scum yada yada on me. Seriously Gear, If you find me scummy, State some quotes, reasons or whatever which is related on the game and not on the previous game we had.

Uhm, his argument was actually in your favour. He was defending you.

[Raskolnikov]

Maybe the meaning of the phrase doesn't translate well, the gist of it is he was saying you should be treated delicately/carefully because he saw you as an easy lynch in your last game together.

[Raskolnikov]

Keyen what do you see as the difference between twoface and jarjar that made you decide on twoface?

[Raskolnikov]

Keyen what do you see as the difference between twoface and jarjar that made you decide on twoface?

[Raskolnikov]

One last question, what's your vij read now if that was a joke before?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Psychodave

There's still weirdness from keyen but I could see a lot of it coming from rvs + wagon nervousness and phone-posting (any maybe language barrier).
I kind of like 371 because it feels as though he's owning up to what was said in some way if that makes sense. Idk about the explanations but they aren't terrible, and his reads/pov at this point isn't that unreasonable either.

[Raskolnikov]

I get a newbscum feel from him for the keyen wagon comment and then not following up on it and saying everything null.
Useless is one thing but I think he's maybe not interested in the game because he rolled scum.

[Raskolnikov]

Although keyen wagon is stale as fuck and if I didn't have this I'd probably wagon something new anyways for the sake of it.

[Raskolnikov]

Grey you have pretty strong opinions on gamma emerald but you don't seem to be pushing any alternative.

[Raskolnikov]

Also grey looks like an alt of someone very experienced (who I may or may not know) and sounds confident but isn't necessarily having the equivalent level of impact.

[Raskolnikov]

FTR I do think keyen is scummier than gamma emerald from what I know of gamma emerald (the admittance of half-assing reads is bold), though I expect gamma to be an easy sort over enough time anyways. IDK how this guy can be so confident at this point on him either though.

[Raskolnikov]

You can't put no input in what goes on and then complain at the result though. If you think gamma is a bad wagon you should offer alternatives.

[Raskolnikov]

Seriously what is your tywin vote?

[Raskolnikov]

How could you know gamma well enough as a player to judge him this confidently this early and at the same time think blind sheeping him is a good idea?

[Raskolnikov]

Uhh no offense gamma you know I love you right?

Blind sheeping anyone willynilly is bad though. And if everyone started blind sheeping like this guy is saying is ideal the game would degenerate into factions and cliques with only a few people talking and there wouldn't be much to look at. I.e. if lazy sheeping is acceptable how do you distinguish between a scum sheeping someone and a town?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Grey

Jarjar used your own logic to illustrate how little sense it made and you're taking that at face value as a lie.
I doubt you actually fail to see the connection so I think you're being extremely disingenuous here.

[Raskolnikov]

He was clearly mocking you in that context when he said it was sheeping.

[Raskolnikov]

Did I play with you before?

[Raskolnikov]

Initially you treat jarjar as stupid town for his scumteam call and that you hate day 1 because you're used to everyone playing like that. Apparently you're used to people, including town, pushing on nai things or shitty reasoning. You say so yourself.
But now you think he's scum. Where if you had some awareness you would realize how blind sheeping is extremely rare and almost no one shares the viewpoints you have expressed, and you say yourself you're used to being pushed on this, that it isn't something new by any means to you.

What made the distinction here? To follow your own logic what is his scum motivation? You say it's because he cannot give scum motivation for your actions, but you yourself have expressed awareness that most people don't even think like that and that it regularly annoys you.

[Raskolnikov]

This is some complicated shit.

[Raskolnikov]

So what's his scum motivation?

[Raskolnikov]

Grey you voted tywin with your justification being sheeping gamma emerald. That's terrible justification for everyone who doesn't agree with your d1 sheeping theory, which is most people if not everyone.
Therefore why would jarjar have felt the need to justify his vote on you if he sees your justification as just as bad, particularly if he scumreads you? You can't say it's necessarily inability if there is a good other reason for that same behavior.

I think if anyone reads his posts they should be able to surmise what his problem with you is, though I'll just give what I see as the obvious interpretation and let him speak for himself for any details. In essence, complaining when you have no real alternative beyond blind sheeping is absurd, and the question is if you're town how you could take so much issue with his scumhunting where you've essentially done nothing of you own. A very strange position for town to take, and then specifically the series of events where you started as questioning the tywin scumread by gamma, then asked gamma why he isn't voting him which got him to do so, and then when he did vote you voted as well on a sheep. As opposed to, you know, just forming your own read on tywin and thinking for yourself whether to vote or not. The gist of your wagon, "I don't see how this can be a legitimate town perspective", is a very common justification for votes and scumhunting, whether your "theory" says it's a good or bad approach.

Your stances if town, true or false are still quite bizarre or at the very least at odds with the norm, so combined with you being "used to" this I question how you can be unaware of that and so quick to cast judgement as a result.

[Raskolnikov]

Twoface I think tywin is a red herring. I believe you remember byf.

Tywin I can empathize (I think you fought over a technicality) but it might be better not to egg someone on if you don't think they're scum.

[Raskolnikov]

Could we get a vote count?

Do you need a vote count to form an opinion on the game?

[Raskolnikov]

Whoops my bad.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't have opinions. I only judge things based on facts.

Like... in terms of what? I feel like Keyan and Grey are scum, but not both. Still null on Gamma

Can you go into more detail?
If it's not on opinion but on fact then it should be easy to describe and get in some specifics.
And why not both keyen and grey?

[Raskolnikov]

@Gear
I liked your earlier statement on keyen (regardless of his align) as it seems like a good intention to say considering what happened in your last game.
But looking back I don't get you originally wanting to speedwagon him in the first place and asking for the votes to pile on if you knew that. Why make the decision to rvs wagon someone if you in your experience think they should be treated with kid gloves?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: keyen

Don't mind going back to this.

[Raskolnikov]

Claim was a little early.

If there's doctor they should hold off on counterclaiming until d2 minimum.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think eagersnake would put 2 bodyguards in a game either, only a few mods do things like that.

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah it's either a death sentence via cc in the long run or actually legit. I don't remember a game without a protective.

[Raskolnikov]

Keyen could be with lil uzi as well. Not much of a stance on him and his play hasn't really impressed me either.

[Raskolnikov]

Gamma
Gear

PsychoD
Grey
LilUziV
Vijara
keyenpy

Two tier suspect pool atm. Out of 6 others, gamma and vijarada have the hard stance defending keyen.
ATM dave is more nullish now than earlier giving he's keeping up the style, though his stance went from "keyen is either scum or people are cautious" to "keyen prob town gray scum" and with gut being the reasoning this is still open. Gear was kind of weird wanting the flashwagon than saying he should be treated carefully but that's still weird even for partners and I don't mind gear outside of that.
Vijarada initially joined the wagon and unvoted because he seems genuine but disagrees with gear and says he shouldn't be treated carefully because of the perfect scum win they had together. Push on dave is on the logic that dave was trying to mislynch keyen though so the read is at least consistent. Although I'm not sure how keyen's joke-read fits in here.
Grey didn't comment much on keyen until voting him.

[Raskolnikov]

Hold off on hammering for a day or so, I wanna wrap a few things up.

[Raskolnikov]

Well played peeps.

I think when you get too many PRs what usually happens is they start fighting each other and you get lynches onto PRs, but that didn't happen here.

[Raskolnikov]

Hey why did you guys kill me did you think I was PR or something?

[Raskolnikov]

A setup that is balanced with an sk and then the sk is removed without much changes made otherwise is probably gonna be townsided, fwiw.

What about an open setup ran as a closed?