Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

Prism
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Post Post #3175  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:24 pm

In post 3167, nn30 wrote:
In post 3166, Prism wrote:To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.

@Prism - if I'm the last remaining scum and I read this from a townie:

In post 3149, Prism wrote:
In post 3148, Prism wrote:The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.


I'd say 'yeah mean, I'm town look at me! oooohhhh look how scummy BV is!'

And then I'd take that check and cash it at the bank for a free Win.

By creating my best scum case on you, I've taken that olive branch and thrown it to the ground. I'm taking the path of least resistance and, frankly, you should be town reading me for it.

Your above quote DOES mean that if I wanted to I could have taken your vote on BV for granted. I didn't do that.
That quote directly says that you have to do more to earn the vote and that's it's not a given. It's directly telling you that convincing me that something BV did Day 5 was scummy was likely a waste of time and giving you clear goals telling you what I'm looking for. Nothing about that says that I'm autovoting outside you.
In post 3167, nn30 wrote:@BV - Take a look back at Prism's ISO. His first post of the game is a vote for Boring, then his second post of the game () contains a weak walk back on his scum read of Boring, possible FoS on LUV, and a vote for Implosion.

For him to enter the game, peg two scum in the way that he did, and end up on the Eager wagon () is bizarre.
I hadn't fully caught up with the game yet and had just voted based off the first post I didn't like. I got my Implosion scumread (just explained a bit of it to BV) and went for it with full force. As far as LUV goes, again may I direct you to Day 2 where I powertunneled LUV and boring tried to discredit my read on LUV without actually removing herself from the wagon. My vote on Eager was due to me also thinking that two town ascetics was unlikely (thinking Eager flipped scum ascetic and assumed he was the only one). I made it clear that I thought that either Eager was scum or both
In post 3167, nn30 wrote:He began D3 with a fairly strong scum read on Boring (). Yet, directly following that vote, he spends a lot of time and energy on other people until finally he switches over to Grendel .

The chain of posts I just linked to were in chronological order starting with his vote for Boring in and ended with his vote on Grendel in .

For somebody who felt strong enough to vote for Boring, he didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to gather votes onto her. He mostly just argues with other people about unrelated things.
This isn't true at all.

#2236 is almost entirely dedicated to boring, with only the first and last quotes being unrelated. The rest is all me questioning/explaining my read to boring, telling you why I didn't agree with your townread on boring, and encouraging Zoronos to reconsider his read.

#2238 was purposely separated from #2236, people were pushing you over boring and I wanted to make it clear I wasn't going to go along. "Thank god for Implosion" is also referencing him coming back and voting boring, because nobody else was agreeing with me until he rolled in 3-4 posts before.

#2421 also dedicates significant time towards explaining more of my scumread on her to boring and more convincing Zoronos boring is mafia. The only thing unrelated is me trying to convince Shadow to stop tunneling you...again so he'll vote boring.

#2423 is a direct response to Shadow and still is me trying to convince him boring is scum.

#2472 is the only one completely unrelated and it was to give Shadow an ego check because he was making it impossible to work with him, and the posts that you've linked here show that I tried very hard to.

I'm not going to dispute that my Grendel read was off the mark, he was the first person I got a chance to reread between him and Dierfire and I found a shit ton I didn't like, and it wound up costing us a lot, and that's my fault. I've been the first to own up to me likely costing us the win that day and have listed it myself as a reason against me. The biggest thing I can say here is to actually go through and evaluate my reasoning on Grendel and see that it's coming from a town point of view. This is what I've been saying all game.

In post 3167, nn30 wrote:This line of play could obviously come from town. But... the more I read it the more it feels scummy to me.
You didn't even read them.

Prism
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Post Post #3176  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:26 pm

In post 3174, nn30 wrote:@Prism - your entire feeling towards shadow in is predicated on Shadow having enough self-awareness to know how arrogant he was being.

He did not have this self-awareness.
No it doesn't. The point of it is that he had no reason to be that arrogant to begin with as town, consciously or not, and he had no reason to take that level of offense to me as town given that I was his scumread. This doesn't respond to that point at all.

Prism
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Post Post #3177  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:28 pm

Scumread it for AtE all you want but yes, if you're mafia you probably should have just taken the olive branch and tried to work with it, because your case on me sucks, the first one still didn't even try to consider counterpoints in my favor, the second one you didn't read any of the posts you linked.

Prism
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Post Post #3178  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:34 pm

Still waiting on a response to any of #3154-#3158, the only thing you responded to was the lowhanging fruit of explaining why you're making a case on me which didn't even answer the question.

Prism
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Post Post #3179  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:36 pm

In post 3175, Prism wrote:I made it clear that I thought that either Eager was scum or both were town
EBWOP, obviously this has become less certain to me since the DF flip but I'm explaining my Day 1

Prism
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Post Post #3180  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:39 pm

Sorry to post so many times in a row but a bonus from #2236 before I ISO'd Grendel:
In post 2336, Prism wrote:You've been basically in the middle to bottom half of the game, and I've made it explicit that I intend to vote you today if I can't get boring. If boring is town, you are almost certainly scum by PoE. If boring is scum, you are still a very likely candidate for the partner.

You didn't even acknowledge repeated announcements for you as a potential alternative lynch, both today and yesterday. I'm not just not whiteknighting you, I'm straight up more on the offense. Between this and 2-3 other posts that appear unconcerned as to what I'm actually thinking, and boring pushing a PP lynch, you've definitely earned the second spot. I'll ISO you sometime tomorrow night.

nn30
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Post Post #3181  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:56 pm

Prism - you're quoting everything I'm saying and replying with 'nuh uh!'

Stop that.

Chill.

Let BV get a word in edgewise - his opinion is the one I'm looking for here.

A good scum can talk their way out of anything. Forgive me for not allowing a scum!Prism be the one to refute the case on him.

Prism
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Post Post #3182  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:59 pm

In post 3181, nn30 wrote:Prism - you're quoting everything I'm saying and replying with 'nuh uh!'

Stop that.
Because all of it is bullshit.

Why didn't you read any of the posts you linked?

Prism
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Post Post #3183  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:02 pm

I'm not going to "chill", if you're town I want an explanation and if you're scum I'm going to sink my teeth into you. Stop dodging and respond to me.

nn30
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Post Post #3184  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:05 pm

I did read them.

Mentioning Boring/talking to Boring and pushing townies to vote for boring are not the same thing.

Prism
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Post Post #3185  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:10 pm

In post 3184, nn30 wrote:I did read them.

Mentioning Boring/talking to Boring and pushing townies to vote for boring are not the same thing.
No, you haven't, even when I've explained why.

These are all in the posts you quoted:
In post 2336, Prism wrote:
In post 2279, nn30 wrote:p-edit - not even how early she wanted LUV on day one
I think it means nothing when it was halfhearted at best up until Day 2.
In post 2308, nn30 wrote:Boring (wanted LUV's booty for two days)
I really, really don't feel like this is the case. When was the last time you ISO'd it? I see no realistic pushing on LUV until boring was a 50/50 for the lynch.
In post 2311, Zoronos wrote:I find scum tend to mark their scum buddies as 'neutral' and will constantly express mild to moderate suspicion on them *while not pushing them*. That is classic distancing. "Yeah A is scummy but let's all vote B" is scum play 101. So those things you flag as 'breadcrumbs' to me are potential setups to join the bus in case LUV goes down. Which is basically what happened yesterday. Those were specifically the things that led me to conclude he might be scum with LUV.
What you are describing is what boring did Day 1 with LUV.
In post 2421, Prism wrote:
Zoronos wrote:What is the rest of the case, beyond 'a bunch of town voted for her D1'?

I guess I'm missing the thrust of the case kinda other than the bussing part but maybe I'm the dumb.

Only speaking for me but a few of the reasons I'm voting her are:
-Maria death
-Acknowledging why Gamma wouldn't be jailed but claims to be confused about why he died
-Voting LUV with me really doesn't convince me given the timing. LUV did something incredibly scummy and it doesn't take a town to see that. This may be confirmation bias speaking but a lot of her votes both today and other days seem opportunistic, ex. #1763 gives the possibility of her switching to Gamma. Kind of hypocritical of me to point out as I've said numerous times to make sure your vote is somewhere it counts, but the who it is question is still there.
-LUV voting Shadow then quickhammering Eager rather than just voting one of Eager/boring in a natural way to begin with is really strange if they're both town.
-Part of it is just me staring blankly at my computer, blankly looking at the names Dierfire/Grendel/boring/PenguinPower, and asking myself who's the most likely scum out of the 4.
In post 2423, Prism wrote:As far as your read on boring/me goes-I don't really get the dichotomy but going with it: What incentive do I have to bus LUV that boring doesn't? If anything boring had everything I did, and a lot more.

Prism
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Post Post #3186  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:12 pm

For those of you keeping track at home, double bussing on Day 2 with a claimed cop and later that day a claimed JK while town still has 3 lynches to burn is not conducive to winning the game as mafia.

nn30
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Post Post #3187  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:19 pm

Prism.

You've just spammed me with at least 2000 words to respond to.

I'm going to need you to tone down the level of pissed you are at me for not jumping at responding to all of that at 11:15 at night.

I'll take another look at things tomorrow when I have ~2 hours to do so (because responding to everything you've just posted will take that long).

If we're both town we'll figure this out together. Until then, I'm going to need you to quit treating my attempt to build a case on you as an affront to your existence.

Prism
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Post Post #3188  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:20 pm

I'm clearly getting way too heated about this in the moment so I'm going to step away for the night but yes, if you're town, you need to read what I'm typing and actually respond to it, because yes it matters, because I'm doing a fuck of a lot more than just saying "nuh uh", and I don't see how you could possibly hold the opinions you're having if you read them.

I'll be back tomorrow.

P-Edit: Already ahead of you but it's really hard not to treat it as an affront to my existence when from my perspective I can't see it as anything other than hogwash.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3189  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:25 pm

In post 3169, Prism wrote:If he's town who thinks he's nailed the scum he's got scum flailing and even trying to replace out out of frustration with him. While I wasn't the only one hounding him, nn was too, it's apparent based off the followup post that he did it with me in mind.

I think he didn't want people to replace out on his account and would rather do it himself as a courtesy. If I were in his place and I pushed someone really hard, they get mad at me and post a replace out request, my reaction would be to apologize or to offer to replace out myself. It wouldn't be "haha, I pressured scum so hard they cracked and now they want to replace out." That kind of thought process would be ridiculous and I have no idea why you'd expect Shadow to think that way.

In post 3169, Prism wrote:His post itself is completely bullshit. It's possible he was really that delusional but who on earth reads Shadow's ISO and agrees with this conclusion:
In post 2890, Shadow_step wrote:I can't take this constant misrep and insult of my play when I'm not being arrgant or cocky at all. I can't help it if people perceive it that way.

You're kidding, right? Do you really think he'd perceive himself the same way you perceive him? Everyone has their own perspective of themselves. Just because you believe someone is arrogant doesn't mean they agree with you and also think of themselves as arrogant.

podoboq
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Post Post #3190  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:41 pm

Official Vote Count 6.02
LynchingWith 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Anybody (0):

Not Voting (3): BlackVoid, nn30, Prism


Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-14 08:15:00)
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

Prism
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Post Post #3191  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:01 pm

I don't have a lot of time the next few days so my apologies. I'll try to be as active as I can (but hopefully less so than I was last night).

Reflecting on last night, I did understand even then that I typed up a huge wall and that you (nn) were interested in BV's opinion, but fundamentally I think your points were atrocious, and those walls were me expressing that. Some of them weren't important and some were, ones that were important were in quick memory: not even trying to consider things from the perspective of me town (like you did for BV, with one example being the boring interactions but there were others), not even reading the posts you linked/giving a distinction that just reinforced that, stomping on an olive branch doesn't mean much when the olive branch never existed (Me saying "You have to do this to win my vote" is not telling you you already have my vote). I definitely wasn't just saying "nuh uh" and feel strongly that I made points that can't be denied even if I'm the one they're coming from.

I realize it's a lot to ask but yeah, I still want a response to them. A lot of the paragraphs are clearly not needing a response (ex. My explanation for Grendel, my explanation of my opening votes on boring/implosion) but a lot of them, like the ones listed above, I expect a response to. If it's unclear what those things are, I can try and list them another day. It would probably do wonders for clarity given how long those posts were/how frustrated I was when I made them but I don't have time to do it right now.
In post 3189, BlackVoid wrote:I think he didn't want people to replace out on his account and would rather do it himself as a courtesy. If I were in his place and I pushed someone really hard, they get mad at me and post a replace out request, my reaction would be to apologize or to offer to replace out myself. It wouldn't be "haha, I pressured scum so hard they cracked and now they want to replace out." That kind of thought process would be ridiculous and I have no idea why you'd expect Shadow to think that way.
I think that's also a solid possibility, and was my first assumption was that it was entirely out of courtesy for me. I'm now reevaluating that assumption. Why wouldn't he think that way given that I was scum misrepping him in his eyes? I can definitely see it given his attitude throughout the game (I had this scum fuck, fucking noobs, why does everyone suck, etc.) It's strange to replace out for your scumread's sake, and all game Shadow showed he didn't give a damn about other people's feelings or perspective.
In post 3189, BlackVoid wrote:You're kidding, right? Do you really think he'd perceive himself the same way you perceive him? Everyone has their own perspective of themselves. Just because you believe someone is arrogant doesn't mean they agree with you and also think of themselves as arrogant.
My point isn't that he was lying. My point is that he had no reason to be that arrogant as town, especially unconsciously. I don't think he was conscious of it, in fact. He literally never voted mafia except for his RVS vote on LUV. Where on earth was that attitude coming from? It's weird to envision with that history thinking they were rocking the game as hard as Shadow thought he was rocking the game.

To be explicit because I feel this is misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying Shadow replacing out or being arrogant was a huge scumtell. I think it's possible for both to have happened with him as town-but thinking about it it makes a lot of sense as scum, too. If he's scum he was playing great, only to be getting shit on 24/7 for doing his job exceptionally and treated like a VI, and that attitude makes a lot more sense. Replacing out because your strongest scumread hates you is noticeably weirder.

It's against him in my mind, yeah, but this isn't an airtight case in my book, and I wouldn't be surprised either if Shadow is scum yet my speculation is entirely wrong. The main reasons I'd vote against you now is for my nn townread, despite it being on the decline, and to a lesser extent the interactions with boring that I didn't like and finally what I've brought up here.

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Post Post #3192  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:13 pm

What I don't get is why you townread nn30 in the first place. Both you and Implosion have been really vague about it and I don't think I understand that read at all.

Coming in, nn30 was the one I thought was scummier than Dierfire, and the scummiest player in the game besides Boring. He had a lot of shifty interactions (like immediately voting Boring when I pushed really hard there despite an earlier townread), noticeably preferring a Dierfire lynch (I think, I have to re-read) over Boring, saying that Boring pushing LUV is a point for her being town, etc. There's also the fact that he stopped pushing her D2 and I have a hard time buying that every player on the Boring wagon was town.

To claim that he's god-level scum if he's scum here is ridiculous to me. I did read somewhere that he prefers playing scum so I won't discount that he may have geared up to manipulate people in the game. I almost get the feeling from you that you are locked in and not interested in considering that I'm town at all but I don't know what that means yet.

nn30
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Post Post #3193  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:29 pm

@BV - check my join date, and read through my 1 completed scum game.

I recall that you said you'd do a meta dive - I don't think that you ever gave the results of that dive.

I think that if you read my completed scum game and compare it to this game I behave much more boldly (and erratically) in this game than that game.

What conclusions you draw from that are up to you.

I mention join date because, while people do change from game to game, I don't think I've had long enough to develop my scum game from then to now.

Prism
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Post Post #3194  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:10 pm

Thought I had already explained more on the nn read but I'll revisit it later. For now do you understand what I'm saying about Shadow? (Even though I know you won't agree.)
In post 3193, nn30 wrote:@BV - check my join date, and read through my 1 completed scum game.

I recall that you said you'd do a meta dive - I don't think that you ever gave the results of that dive.

I think that if you read my completed scum game and compare it to this game I behave much more boldly (and erratically) in this game than that game.
That was me, and I did pick up on the increased aggressiveness in this game, or rather how much you bent over backwards in your other game (#133 was the one that stuck out to me). One of the reasons it's taken longer (besides me obviously getting entangled elsewhere in the game) is because whereas at first I thought that style of posts was nonexistent in your scumgame, when I saw #174 which suggested that it was more complex than it first seemed. Glancing through now I don't see any others as aggressive but the fact that my initial conclusion was wrong is the reason it's taken so long, but I agree that so far it points to you being town. It's expected that you'd play the games differently even if you were scum in both but that's not what I'm looking for here.

podoboq
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Post Post #3195  (ISO)  » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:19 pm

Official Vote Count 6.03
LynchingWith 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Anybody (0):

Not Voting (3): BlackVoid, nn30, Prism


Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-14 08:15:00)
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

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Post Post #3196  (ISO)  » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:20 pm

Prodge.

Been busy this weekend.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3197  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:33 pm

Will get to this later.

podoboq
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Post Post #3198  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:37 pm

BlackVoid and Prism have been prodded.

This is BlackVoid's third prod. As of now, I am not replacing the slot. If the problem persists, I will begin seeking a replacement.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

podoboq
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Post Post #3199  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:39 pm

Official Vote Count 6.04
LynchingWith 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Anybody (0):

Not Voting (3): BlackVoid, nn30, Prism


Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-14 08:15:00)
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

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