Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[MiniDeathStar]

VOTE: CloudKicker

The new meta is that whoever is trying to look scummy on purpose is probably actual scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

Also HIIII KAIRAL AND AGENT JIN ♥

(And Io.)

[MiniDeathStar]

I was being serious about Cloud though. Remember a fellow who claimed scum recently and turned out to be the real scum? Hint, their name also starts with C.

There's also this:

Hello, i fliped my favorite alignement :3 its a secret tho which one it is

Sound like it's town? Because to me it doesn't sound like town would be a secret.

[MiniDeathStar]

The new meta is to act scummy on purpose ("okay let's do something scummy now, haha hilarious right? ") in hopes people townread you for 'playing loose'. I can't be more specific than that atm but it's a trend I've noticed.

[MiniDeathStar]

Would we typically expect 4 scum in this game size?

3 mafia + serial killer is totally possible.

[MiniDeathStar]

MDS, what do you think of the D9 roll instead of D12 or 13?

I don't think much of it. I think it's an established part of MafiaScum's culture to fos whoever is rolling dice in the RVS for making a genuinely random vote and denying town information with it. But like, he was rolling the dice to look scummy on purpose, which is what pinged me.

[MiniDeathStar]

Ok so you think 4 maf is unlikely? Why did he choose a 9 then? If he was deliberately doing a 'lol I so scummy, look at me excluding scum from the vote' he'd do d10 right? Himself + 2 others. If he was Maf he wouldn't know if there's a serial killer I assume.

That would only make sense if the bottom 4 names were all mafia. You're reading too much into it.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh no Kairal, I wasn't talking about Cerbieber, the C I meant literally claimed scum and did obvious scummy things in some weird WIFOM attempt and it actually worked on me for a while, which is why I'm never falling for that trick again. Cloud

Killer

is getting lunched today, no way out of that.

Question is, who's on the menu after that.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh, I remember who accused me last game of thinking too highly of myself because I called them scum. That's right, the scum did.

Relax, Cloud, I'm not going to get you lynched this early and over 3 posts, but your reaction doesn't exactly persuade me you're town.

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't think my post was bad? I made a strong accusation to see how you'd react and if someone would follow. If you literally thought I accused you of being *related* to the other C, or expected me to lead an actual lynch on page 2, idk what to tell you.

As for your reaction, I don't think clinging onto your 'townslip' and inventing reasons to vote me is super town-indicative. ~shrug~

[MiniDeathStar]

It was relevant because there are people here who were in the same game where the scum claimed scum and almost got away with it. You're so wrong if you think I won't be suspicious of anyone else who claims scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yes, Cloud, we get it, I called you scum and I still don't think you're town. Why are you repeating it? Like literally what was the purpose of that wall?

@culted:

Not sure yet. I've played with Jin twice so far and from what I saw he's a bit weird/scummy in tone and playstyle so I can't read him until I've seen actual decisions from him.

[MiniDeathStar]

Let me ELI5:
- I think you're scum because you claimed scum, and because you've been freaking out all over the place after I called you out on it
- The fact I *think* you're scum and I'm voting for you doesn't mean I'm asking everyone to sheep me on page 2; that I can probably forgive you since you said you're new here
- C is not related to you in any other way besides that he also claimed scum (and ultimately flipped scum); I mentioned his name to hint at the people who were in that game with me. Read the posts in context.

As a bonus, I find your forced attempts to make me look scummy eye-roll worthy (""actually scumtelling"", ""textbook mafia""). If that's the best you can do, just say I'm confscum to you and stop talking to me. You're clogging the thread and I literally don't care about your reads atm.

[MiniDeathStar]

Kairal's town. Very transparent.

Unless he's pulling a Börk Börk on me, for which he should know I'd murder him post-game.

[MiniDeathStar]

Anddd my reads are being sheeped again. Lovely.

Like please think for yourselves once in a while guys.

[MiniDeathStar]

How about addressing the scum claim. If someone claims scum day 1 or really outside of an investigative check assume it's a joke. It means nothing as no one would game throw that hard and not just out their scum buddies.

Of course. The intention isn't to gamethrow, it's to try to get a free pass for being scummy. As long as it looks like a joke, townies ignore it and may start townreading you for 'playing risky'.

Example: Harkonnen in Open 656. He pulled that trick a few times on Day 1 and became a universal town read thanks to it. He was town that game but literally nothing stopped scum!him from doing the same. Case in point: he got a scummy replacement and almost got lynched. Everyone's townread had suddenly evaporated.

My point is, it's becoming something of a trend and now that I've been fooled a couple times by it, I'm not going to let it slide anymore. It's bad WIFOM, it's anti-town and it's suspicious.

Absolutely not, i did answer on his post from my pov while mini's answer was not even jin related in anyway

Holy misrepresentation Batman. I was literally giving my meta on Jin. I have two games with him where I read him correctly despite his eccentric style, but it took me some time. Like are we even reading the same thing here?

Thanks for the condescension, but did you consider that I simply posted my thoughts?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending. I just dislike it when people basically say the same stuff as I without elaborating much, because I can't tell if I'm being sheeped or if they came to the same conclusion independently.

[MiniDeathStar]

Another read you guys wont buy but ill out it anyway, if flub is mefia he scumsliped cleared me there.

Its not bad play, i thought mafiascum player would be better than the average joe on epicmafia, apprently not so much. Everyone is so preoccupied about mafia faking slips and such, town does slips much more often than scum does, now disregarding that.

Lol.

VOTE: IO

Well that's a terrible vote.

Tbh actually I'm starting to think CloudKiddo is more like Cerberus. Scummy af and stuck in his own little universe, but probably town.

Still, make sure to lynch him if he gets tracked to nobody.

If you legitimately believe Cloudkicker is scum as you say, why would you be actively against people sheeping you? You do this more than just here.

Because last game people sheeped me and I was voting town 50% of the time. We're a majority for a reason, everyone should be contributing to the discussion, not blindly following the village elder.

Oops forgot my random not-actually-random vote!

VOTE: Kairal

And just like that, massive starts slowly oozing down towards the scumpile.

@culted:

Jin is known to say weird and scummy stuff. I wouldn't read too deep into it.

Other general reads:

Kairal is obvtown. Culted looks town. Grey looks town. AJ unsure, but I doubt he actually scumslipped with 'confbias'. I'll be watching that duel and see if it looks town-on-town or town-on-scum. Everyone else is pretty much null.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yup, not pushing that wagon for now. VOTE: massive

[MiniDeathStar]

His questions felt pointless, and that vote on Kairal was super bad.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh, sorry, totally forgot about Jin. Nope, not seeing town!Jin yet. He's pretty difficult to read at a first glance though.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm happy leaving CloudKirby live for today.

massive has to get off the island though.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm sheep voting with you? I had no idea. My read on massive was utterly independent of yours.

Oh wait, you don't even have a read. Just an RVS vote.

[MiniDeathStar]

FOS: Flubbernugget

[MiniDeathStar]

Damn, I didn't realize you were that savage.

She is pretty savage, it worries me sometimes but she gets things done and her savageness doesnt bother me as its effective.

If you legitimately believe Cloudkicker is scum as you say, why would you be actively against people sheeping you? You do this more than just here.

Because last game people sheeped me and I was voting town 50% of the time. We're a majority for a reason, everyone should be contributing to the discussion, not blindly following the village elder.

A -- if you were only voting town half the time, you're actually doing better than would be expected (since town is 75% of the game) so again, why would you not want people sheeping you? And B -- honey, if you think people are going to follow the village elder, maybe you better check my join date.

I said *blindly* following. I'm not against people voting with me, I'm against people sheeping me for no reason. The game I mentioned could have been lost with a single mislynch after Day 1, and I almost got town lynched twice. People should not blindly sheep anything, period.

By village elder I actually metaphorically meant the person acting as a leader/advisor, not literally the eldest player.

Very interested what it is about my vote that makes me scum. And no, 157 isn't even remotely close. And no, trying to push the town based on 157 with no additional reasons is practically bullshit.

So, out of all possible people you could have voted, you dumped it on the most obvtown person in the game for literally no reason. And, if you actually meant it to be a *random* "not totally random" vote, that makes it even worse. What motivation could town possibly have to drop a vote like that? Like please walk me through it.

What is exemplary of your point above?

You mean which questions were pointless?

"Why would you be actively against people sheeping you [on page 2]" - obviously because it gives me no information.

"Is it important the order in which these things happened?" - how is that remotely relevant?

These are the exact sort of questions scum would be asking to distract people and appear helpful without actually getting any helpful answers. Cf. Kop in Open 656, bangthemafia in Open 658.

Massive, I would like your read on cloudkicker. I see your 94 as not reading them as town, yet your 95 votes for someone else for *reasons*

And my vote is staying on you.

@minideathstar

Didn't see that, my bad. I still wasn't "sheeping" you though.

Like am I wrong on what sheeping actually means? I thought it only referred to joining a wagon without good reason or literally any reason. I wouldn't call just happening to vote the same person "sheeping".

[MiniDeathStar]

There are people here who were in those games, but basically I just referenced them

by the way

so people can ask me to show quoted examples or check if I'm not pulling rabbits out of a hat.

[MiniDeathStar]

Why would I be asking questions that give YOU information?

That is so not what my point was. You asked a question that had an obvious answer.

In any event, voting for someone and then actively working against having other people vote alongside you could mean you voted for your scumbuddy and now OOPS people are gonna run him up, so you need to start working to save him. And the whole thing is patently ridiculous because you are OBVIOUSLY asking people to sheep you:

Take a deep breath and stop. Redefine 'sheep' as 'follow blindly with no thought or evidence'. Reread.

39: Cloudkicker definitely getting lynched, sheep me

"Definitely getting lynched" on page 2 is obviously me being the bad cop. Thanks, good to know I suck at it. (Or am *too* good? What's the difference?)

49: I'm not gonna get you lynched Cloudkicker

Who lynches people on page 2? Seriously?

51: It was all a reaction test!

What else do you think a threat on page 2 is?

65: I still think you're scum but again please don't sheep me on this
80: No really guys don't sheep me

Yes, I thought he was scum because his reaction was bad. No, I didn't ask to be sheeped because

*blindly* following on someone else's read

is super anti-town.

154: Cloudkicker is probably town

CloudKinetics said a lot of stuff between 80 and 154 and it made me think his scumminess is just part of his style. There's many other players like him, for example Secret Agent Jin.

"Is it important the order in which these things happened?" - how is that remotely relevant?

It might be, but I don't know yet. I haven't gotten an answer to the question.

Newman

that one is for you.

You... don't know how it's relevant. But you asked anyway. This is exactly what I mean.

Were they not relevant to the current discussion, that being Cloudkicker at that time? What exactly was I distracting people from?

No. They were *related*, but not *relevant*. Their answers didn't matter. They were filler questions.

Despite what you may say, Kairal is not obvtown. At the time I was not happy with how he jumped on the Cloudkicker wagon due to the d9 slip, even despite it being explained to him how his view of the slip made absolutely no sense. It made it look like he wasn't concerned with his own reasons and was willing to jump on the CK wagon no matter what.

Why are you saying all this *now*? Why didn't you attach all of that to your vote? It kind of makes me think you only came up with it now.

Plus, you're wrong. As soon as we explained it to him, he acknowledged his mistake and switched. Kairal is a new player and tends to ridiculously overthink certain things and slide in the wrong direction. I've played one game with him already and I know how he is. An experienced player like you should at least tonally recognise a newbie and read him accordingly. Your "unhappiness" looks a lot like grasping at straws.

[MiniDeathStar]

FOS: Io

. I'm thankful you took my side on the sheeping definition but honestly, there's better things to do than dictionarying around for

yet another page

.

Well, how would I find out if it's relevant if I didn't ask?

I'm not sure I follow? Grey pointed out two scummy things about CloudKlepto and you're asking him why he ordered them the way he did. How would it be relevant regardless of the answer? Like that's literally the randomest question you could've asked.

Pretty much false. Some people just have way too much trust. If you're going to have an issue with it, look for WHY they sheep you. There's a few players on site who like to townbloc as a way to wincon, which basically involves one or two townleaders and a fuckton of sheep. The sheep there just have to make sure they're comfortable with what's going on.

And that's exactly what bothers me, because the town leaders aren't wizards, they can be wrong and if the whole village is mindlessly agreeing, it binds everyone to the leader's biases and blind spots. I was the town leader last game, I cleared two scum, almost led a deathwagon on a few townies and it took me ages to figure everything out because barely anyone was helping me. Of course I want to avoid this happening again.

I think when you're calling CK's reactions bad, you're on the wrong road for what was so weird about it. He wasn't actually reacting to much at all, rather his choices to focus on himself was the far stranger part of his entire reaction. Unless we're speaking of 1 and the same thing (CK's calling his own townslip, CK calling himself town off a flip that hadn't happened), i'd like to see exactly what reaction you're referring to.

I *did* call that out though? It was him clinging to his 'townslip' and conjuring this forced OMGUS on me that didn't impress me.

Hi Dierfire

The person you replaced hadn't done much so far so I'm currently voting you in order to encourage you :p

VOTE: Dierfire

I know you mean well but in my experience this kind of "CPR votes" is incredibly useless.

[MiniDeathStar]

Sheeping discussion. Personally I've never really understood the concept. The whole reason I make arguments is in order to persuade people. To me sheeping seems like successful persuasion.

Which is grand when you're onto the scum. It's less grand when you're onto the town and the lynch is sponsored mostly by misled town while the scum are rofling in secret away from the wagon. It's also less grand because people stealth-vote without giving any new reads, which makes *them* harder to read.

Also two heads, better than one, etc. etc.

Anyway right now we have 2 votes on AJ (from Massive and Io) and I don't see any reasoning provided for either. Mind explaining? Personally I looked through his ISO and he looks fine to me. By which I mean he has a reasonable number of posts and doesn't seem afraid to create solid interactions with people, and is actively creating content. Now sure my reads are often poop as previously established but if you post persuasive arguments as to why he should be lynched maybe I'll vote him too :p.

Yup, Kairal's town.

You better not be pulling a Börk Börk / oddmusic on me because you'll be murdered post-game and never townread by me again, you know that right?

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm starting to feel better about Aj the Scummy btw.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Grey:

Thanks but I'll pass for now. I kind of have this

massive

situation here that needs to be resolved asap.

Grey, how do you feel about massive's responses to me so far? I'm not super impressed to be honest, but I could be sinking into a tunnel. I need opinions.

@CloudKicker:

Wow, ouch. I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to insult you. It's just a thing I do sometimes to tease people. I had no idea it bothered you so much.

[MiniDeathStar]

Obviously he wasn't going to answer you, massive. Anyway, I guess that makes sense. I don't know if it makes enough sense for me to unvote though.

@CloudKicker:

Lol. I don't think I've ever seen anyone *that* desperate to throw mud on someone. And here I felt guilty because I thought I genuinely offended you. Yeah, no, you're CloudKleenex again.

[MiniDeathStar]

FTR: There's a certain someone that Kairal can tell you about who earned about 500 different nicknames from me, all varying in offensiveness. We were both town. Make of that what you will.

[MiniDeathStar]

Only unvoting if shes mod cleared

Well that's one less vote that's going to be helpful to town. Not that I had much faith in your votes to begin with, but at least I'm glad you parked it on a scumread of yours and not a totally random person who just happened to call you CloudKitchen.

P. Edit: Oh, wow. Literally no regrets.

[MiniDeathStar]

Its you guys whos going to waste your time and the investement in the game if i get lynched d1, not me lel

Gamethrowing is a violation of site-wide rules and might get you banned, so be careful how you're playing. Your attitude is not helping either faction atm.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Kairal:

Honestly, I don't have a case on Cloud. I think he's town, which is incredibly unfortunate atm, but calling me scum for changing a couple letters in his name just tempted me to resume trolling. I know I'm probably the bigger arsehole here but somehow I can't feel a lot of sympathy for someone that petty.

Um, no, Cloud. Refusing to provide reads/info and locking your vote on someone who may or may not get lynched is not helpful to either wincon.

[MiniDeathStar]

I also do nicknames to ppl, i dislike you doing it because i feel its scummotivated for some reason

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh, okay. So you're not voteless and mute, just voteless. I can live with that. But just fyi, I'm never getting lynched.

[MiniDeathStar]

That being said (as I've highlighted already) Saj is doing very little

That's kind of part of his meta on Day 1.

[MiniDeathStar]

I think Grey is town. He's voting Aj for good reasons (ISO him and you'll see). Massive and Io are people I already suspect independent on their votes on Aj.

[MiniDeathStar]

In fact, now I think I'm feeling slightly better about massive, so:

UNVOTE: massive

FOS: massive

VOTE: Io

[MiniDeathStar]

You literally declared your play is neither optimal nor good, you admitted to gamethrowing and the mod called you out on it. This is not alignment-indicative for either of us.

[MiniDeathStar]

@swan its not a good idea nor optimal

This is you admitting to deliberately making bad decisions. Let's please not sugarcoat it. Now quit posting in the thread, you're being replaced.

[MiniDeathStar]

Scum Meter
Kairal
Elhabe21
Cloudkicker
-Grey-
culted
HellloooNewman
I Am Innocent
Secret Agent Jin
Aj The Epic
massive
Flubbernugget
Io

town

|

~town

|

null

|

~scum

|

scum

[MiniDeathStar]

@mod: You clearly stated that CK is not playing towards his wincon.

This means that he is either town tunneling town or scum bussing. If he was scum voting town, he'd be playing towards his wincon. If he was town voting scum, he'd be playing towards his wincon.

No, it means he *self-admitted* to making sub-optimal decisions. Playing towards your wincon means making the decisions you feel are best. He deliberately didn't do that, which is literally gamethrowing by definition.

[MiniDeathStar]

How does this justify a hard town read??

It wasn't that, it was her replacement's opening, but I copied the old name from the OP. Sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

You're reading too much into what Gamma said. He's an experienced mod and he wouldn't slip. As much as I'd love to be mod-confirmed town, I am not. Sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

Gamma would've converted and modkilled him or restarted the game in that case. Like, please don't base your reads on either of us based on the other's alignment just because Cloud got replaced for deliberate bad play.

[MiniDeathStar]

When Kairal asked CK if he thought voting me was a good idea or the best choice, he denied. That's playing against his win condition.

[MiniDeathStar]

It's quite obvious that CK was playing suboptimally, but playing suboptimally isn't a force-replaceable offense or it would happen in just about every single game.

By itself it isn't. But *deliberately* playing suboptimally is. CK *admitted* that

as far as he was concerned

voting me wasn't the best choice, but he did anyway. Please stop bringing it up, it's been two pages already.

Gamma referred to CK's own admission, not our actual alignments.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm done talking about this. You're being ridiculous.

[MiniDeathStar]

If you're going to lynch one of us, make it CK. I'm useful.

[MiniDeathStar]

This is what's going to happen. You lynch CK, mafia NK's me, Day 2 starts with 2 less townies and we've gained literally nothing. You do realise that even if by your logic one of our flips "confirms" the other as town, mafia will instakill the other one, right?

[MiniDeathStar]

Lynching town is a terrible choice, period. How do you know there are protective roles at all? How would you analyse an obvious NK? That's without mentioning you're inventing an association between our alignments that only exists in your head and CK's and use it as a basis for your argument.

Like I can't even express how ridiculous this whole thing is.

[MiniDeathStar]

I find it really humorous how many people are like "Kairal's behavior is so obvtown!" because all it reads to me is newbscum. Like, his partners are cringing in their heads thinking how they can ditch him. Kairal's "moving on" in 66 didn't make sense to me either. His explanation post is 119 which is after 99, and I didn't get to thinking about it until overnight. That whole time, though, I'm still thinking newbscum.

I am not remotely surprised that my scumspect is trying to cast doubt on what's becoming a universal town read.

The best part is Kairal's partners wondering how to ditch him when he's being townread by half the village.

[MiniDeathStar]

If I were scum with CK right now, I'd be asking Gamma for a role redistribution.

P. Edit: OMG HI SHADOW ♥

[MiniDeathStar]

@Grey:

Trust me, I'm not scum and scum would kill me sooner than later. I'm a terrible choice for today's lynch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Couldn't be more transparent, could you massive.

UNVOTE: Io
VOTE: massive

[MiniDeathStar]

So humour me, what's going to happen if I flip town and CK has been scum the whole time but everyone is considering him clear for some arcane reason? That's game over.

I appreaciate how you doubled down on it though.

[MiniDeathStar]

No, I don't. Gamma already explained what he called CK playing against his wincon.

[MiniDeathStar]

What am I talking about? My head hurts a lot I blanked out and thought Grey was accusing Gamma of being scum for some reason.

Poor Io.

[MiniDeathStar]

i dont know where his faux-bias is coming from or why he is so biased towards MDS

I have a very simple explanation: he's mafia.

He screwed up with that opportunistic vote-hop, then tried to double down on the faulty logic when Grey revealed he had been baiting him. He never expected Grey to take my side and it took him by surprise.

I'm going to repeat this: nobody has confirmed that CK and I share alignment. Do not assume he's conftown when I die as town, or assume I'm conftown or confscum if he dies as town/scum. Like, pretty please.

[MiniDeathStar]

That's exactly my point.

[MiniDeathStar]

Aj the Rubic, why are you scumreading Io btw? I looked through your posts but you never actually mentioned that until now.

[MiniDeathStar]

She's the one I'm actually most worried about, because while she *does* look somewhat scummy and anti-town (like choosing to argue definitions for pages instead of talking about the game, staying under the radar), I have the feeling she's one of those players who read super similar as either alignment and can easily confuse town later in the game.

It's also going to be extremely difficult to build an actual case on her. I suggest whatever cops exist in the game point their radar guns there.

[MiniDeathStar]

Directing power roles, SAUCY

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh, I totally missed that mafsive brought up my sheeping argument again. Let me reiterate for the last time: please think for yourselves and carefully consider every argument and explanation that you agree with. Agreeing is not bad, agreeing without thinking is.

[MiniDeathStar]

You know, in case the mafia try to make you believe I'm totally against people voting the same targets as I.

That said, I think I should sleep now. Night everyone. ♥

[MiniDeathStar]

I'd like everybody who is scumreading Kairal to some degree to let me know please.

[MiniDeathStar]

No, I meant people who see him as scummy or "newbscum" or whatever.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm currently sorting into two baskets. Would not lynch day 1 and the rest. Right now I have Mini, Grey, Dierfire and Culted in basket 1. Including myself that means I have the bare minimum for a town read from 5 of 13 people. That's not my 'would never lynch, clearly town bff' list. That's my exceeded bare minimum to not get lynched list. If I'm super generous I could maybe fit Jin in there.

So here's the thing. Kairal's actively trying to reduce the pool of suspects, which is incredibly town and super bad for scum unless he put his partners in his "basket 1". And tbh if those people are the scum, we may have already lost the game, we just don't know it yet.

Either way, I don't see how any scumread on that man could be justified other than with forced nitpicking.

The only people who work to actively *expand* the possible pool of lynchables by feigning paranoia before MYLO/LYLO and looking to cast doubt on others' townreads, are the scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

Mini why are you feeling better about Massive? I believe you already had FoS on Io previously so I get why you changed the vote to her. But why not massive?

That was back then. Part of my suspicion on him was because of his questioning which I thought was pointless. But then he explained his intentions and I thought they made sense, so that was one point of my case against him struck down.

It didn't erase my whole scumread though, and his opportunistic wagoning and doubling down on the bad logic pretty much dropped him back to the bottom of my scum meter.

[MiniDeathStar]

And yeah, the lady doth protest too much.

VOTE: MiniDeathStar

This is your bad logic. This part was in reference to my protesting the idea that CloudKitten and I shared alignments. Which is what

the bloody mod

said, too.

There's no way you can actually read MDS as town.

Really? Several people are townreading me atm. Are they all scum with me?

You'd have to start with explaining how scum-CK voting town-MDS is playing against his wincon.

And this is you doubling down. First, you realise you're accusing

the mod

of lying, right? I don't have to explain why this is ridiculous, do I?

Second, I really shouldn't have to explain this for the gigantilionth time, but here:

CloudKicker self-admitted he wasn't making the best decision or playing optimally by sticking his vote on me. This admission was what got him replaced, not the actual vote.

[MiniDeathStar]

No no no, massive, sorry but you don't get to backpedal on that now. You very clearly stated it right here:

You'd have to start with explaining how scum-CK voting town-MDS is playing against his wincon.

[MiniDeathStar]

Answer to your direct question, which you seem reluctant to quote along with it.

So humour me, what's going to happen if I flip town and CK has been scum the whole time but everyone is considering him clear for some arcane reason?

That wasn't an actual answer to my question though? You just dodged it.

Like, I very clearly explained why I'm not treating CK's slot as mod-confirmed town and all you did was repeat the bad logic.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm scumleaning on Flubsy (you're reading the meter backwards). I just haven't reviewed him lately because I've been stuck in this massive tunnel, but I'll ISO him tomorrow morning and see if I can find anything town in there.

I really should sleep now though, I'm tired and still a little sick. Good luck. ♥

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh no, I thought I'd placed Flub at the top of the orange section and you interpreted him as my top scumread. I don't actually care that much to sort people *within* each category, just to sort them in categories.

Thanks Kairal. ♥

[MiniDeathStar]

Okay, I've read Flubby's ISO twice now and I don't see anything like *outrageously* scummy, it's just the fact he keeps asking these one-liner questions and barely actually addresses the responses. I don't think he's ever given any sort of analysis so far.

It kind of looks like the

'a question a day keeps the tracker away'

tell. As in, you appear helpful, while not actually providing any content yourself, while keeping people distracted and focused away from you.

I'm not removing my FOS on him. Not yet at least.

[MiniDeathStar]

With current site meta your best bet really is to ignore scum reads on you unless there's something off on a really fundamental level

This is super anti-town behaviour which you've been adopting rather generously this game. Not addressing an accusation just makes me think you know it's true. It also robs town of opportunity to get reads or catch scum (you never know which side the accusation is coming from until you investigate). You know your role. You're the best person to determine the alignment of the accuser or convince the rest of your alignment. Here you actively refuse to do that.

I seriously don't like how you've been playing so far, and if it weren't for this massive event horizon of scumminess I would definitely be voting you right now.

[MiniDeathStar]

So I went from not *outrageously* scummy to the bottom of your scum list over one post you're just seeing now as opposed to the two times you iso'd me?

No. You descended further down the scumpile after I made an accusation and you completely ignored it. I wasn't going to bring up your "meta" post if you had just paid attention to me, but you decided to go ahead and ignore me.

That's not going to fly any longer though.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yes, I think deliberately engaging in anti-town behaviour is scummy?

[MiniDeathStar]

But you decided to declare it anti town well after you had seen it because?

Because I decided in that context it was just, well, anti-town. However, by the time I called you out on it you already had FOSes by several people, and the fact you pretended nothing happened drew my attention to that post once again.

I don't think there's anything wrong with town-on-town. If *you* are town, accusations by town would by definition already be town-on-town, so the sooner everybody *knows* it, the better? On the other side of the equation there's scum-on-town, which is even worse to ignore.

Like, please don't try to justify your anti-town behaviour in some weird attempt to make me look scummy for calling you out.

[MiniDeathStar]

If you wanted to argue theory you shouldn't have done it when you decided you wanted to make a push

I'm not "arguing theory", I'm backing up my scumread.

Your argument boils down to the fact that I don't cry when people scum read me and thats pretty laughable thing to push

No, it boils down to the fact you totally ignore any read on you, which is super anti-town. There's a difference between actively scumhunting/building a case and avoiding distractions, and simply ignoring any accusation on you in hopes it would eventually go away.

You aren't scumhunting, Flubbernugget. You're not doing anything besides dropping random questions and comments.

[MiniDeathStar]

Ignore reads on me = not crying when I'm scum read

I'm sorry but repeating "you're wrong" won't actually make me wrong. However you try to sugarcoat it, you *were* ingoring accusations on you, which *is* anti-town.

Not only am I scum hunting you right now, I started the massive wagon too

What does that even mean? You had an RVS vote on massive, don't credit yourself.

You fucked your reads up and you're not going to be able to backpedal to have it make sense no matter how hard you tried

No I didn't? You've always been a scumread. I just added more weight to it. There was no backpedaling whatsoever involved.

[MiniDeathStar]

Not addressing an accusation just makes me think you know it's true. It also robs town of opportunity to get reads or catch scum (you never know which side the accusation is coming from until you investigate). You know your role. You're the best person to determine the alignment of the accuser or convince the rest of your alignment.

I've never refused to acknowledge a scumread on me as town. I don't know much about the "town doesn't care about being scumread" meta, but I definitely don't see it as pro-town behaviour.

[MiniDeathStar]

Blame me all you want IDGAF

And BTW, IDC about responding to farside rn.

Can you guess what Gamma was that game? Scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

Nah. Flubsy-bubsy is scummy but massive is a whole next dimension of scumminess. I'm still entertaining the slight possibility that Flub is actually town, just really really scummy/lynchbaity town. I remember he was in everyone's scumpile in Io's game and ultimately got mislynched and town lost. That's why I'm going to give him a little more leeway.

[MiniDeathStar]

You voted him during the RVS with no bloody evidence and you still credit yourself with "starting his wagon".

Like, it's not like I even care who started the wagon. It just boggles me why you keep bringing it up, as if you're trying to squeeze out some town credit in case he flips scum.

Is it because you *know* he is scum?

[MiniDeathStar]

I just don't see how MDS is still running this town.

Probably because I'm actually explaining stuff while you're sticking to "omg wtf" lines like this?

[MiniDeathStar]

^Grey conf scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yes, I was making the first accusations on him. You're accusing me of not scumhunting when I began voting him for the same reason you did later

Also, you blatantly lied. And it shows that you thought you would get away with it because you're AGAIN trying to handwave when I began to have an actual scumread on massive.

Tbh you have a point. You *were* scumhunting, lackluster as it was. It's just, the fact all your posts look pretty much the same, and the fact you never actually gave reads or overarching analysis on anybody, makes it very difficult to see the actual scumhunting from you.

But yeah, your defence makes more sense now.

UnFOS: Flubbernugget

[MiniDeathStar]

Well, I was accusing him of not scumhunting and he showed me evidence. I know that it could have been a distancing vote but it *could* have been scumhunting, too. I can't prove it either way until massive flips.

[MiniDeathStar]

If massive is mafia, Flubber could be a partner. Otherwise, not sure. I don't think he looked like an easily mislynchable low-hanging fruit at that time.

[MiniDeathStar]

I also kind of need to see what effort Flub would put into sorting the rest of the village.

[MiniDeathStar]

Kairal, remember Börk Börk.

[MiniDeathStar]

The reason why I'm iffy on it is because Flub could have quoted a number of other posts as evidence for his scumhunting, but he was specifically anchored on that *one* post and brought it up several times. It kind of looks like he wants bussing to pay off, if he's indeed bussing.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yeah, you're right, I'm definitely not hanging Flub-nub today... as my UnFOS should have shown.

[MiniDeathStar]

Wait, did I say hanging? I totally meant voting off the island.

[MiniDeathStar]

I have a bit of a reputation for clearing people prematurely...

[MiniDeathStar]

Aj makes a good point on Flubz actually. Maybe I'm just confirmation-biasing my read. In any case, I'm definitely not sold on him being town just yet. I need a lot more convincing for that, and it has to come from the man himself.

As for Jin, I think you should know he's a bit overly reliant on my logic. It's just what I noticed from our last game, and it seems to be the case this game, too.

[MiniDeathStar]

No way we're lynching massive until we hear from everyone. Just saying.

[MiniDeathStar]

Poor Kairal. Your timezone really sucks, haha.

[MiniDeathStar]

Well that was a bad morning.

CloudKicker self-admitted he wasn't making the best decision or playing optimally by sticking his vote on me. This admission was what got him replaced, not the actual vote.

I swear the next person to insinuate I'm scum with Shadow based on something *the mod* has said, goes straight to the scumpile. This meme has to die. If you think I'm scum, make an actual case so I can tell whether you're legit paranoid about me, or just committing my #1 scumtell.

[MiniDeathStar]

That's kind of why he used an argument someone else made?

[MiniDeathStar]

Sooo...

*CK is replaced for admitting he was playing bad on purpose*
*Mini explains why it's NAI*
*mod explains why it's NAI*
*Mini explains a few times more*
Newman: Naaah, the mod fucked up. It's AI. Vote: Mini

I was going to just say "suit yourself" and forget about you, but you being the third person to latch onto that "mod confirmed alignment" bullshit is a bit too much for me to just ignore.

FOS: HellloooNewman

[MiniDeathStar]

Not alignment indicative.

[MiniDeathStar]

I mean, sure. Probably. I think if I was actually scum with Shadow right now I'd be freaking the hell out to Gamma and demand he restart the game or replace me or idk. I'd definitely hate the game if some mod slip was what caused me to lose as scum when I established myself as a village leader. But you have no way of knowing how I'd react, so I totally understand where you're coming from.

But ignoring the most probable explanation, and going for something arcane (like the mod replacing scum who was "bussing too much", then slipping about it and confirming the other scum [which would be even worse gamethrowing], then trying to cover it up), is just, like, way too scummy. Like you want me out of the game asap but can't make an actual case, and don't want to risk nightkilling and hitting a doctor's target.

[MiniDeathStar]

Twilight zone bussing is not a force-replaceable offence though? It would just mean he's a very shitty player, but that's life. You play long enough, eventually you *are* going to lose a game as scum thanks to useless partners. I had a shitty partner very recently and while he did make me lose the game, I never actually reported him or told him to replace.

Plus, if you looked at the thread, you'd see the post Gamma quoted when he issued a warning was CK's confession, so the mod slip argument doesn't even make sense by itself.

[MiniDeathStar]

I agree with Kairal actually (in that massive has been scummier so far). I just can't tell if Newman is town-paranoid about me, or scum-paranoid about me, or legitimately believes I'm scum but can't build an actual case.

[MiniDeathStar]

Ughhhh I just reread some of the thread from the beginning and seeing CloudKaflooey again made me instantly regret it.

Anyway, Flub, I did vote massive for slightly different reasons, mostly because he was voting an obvtown person (rather than an 'unexplained' vote), but like, okay, we got it, you were scumhunting and I was wrong about that. There, happy?

[MiniDeathStar]

All this pushing on Newman made me want to reread him carefully again. This kind of stood out:

I understand you FOSing me and beating down my point. I mean, if I'm correct it's not as if you'd agree with my ascertain, know what I mean?

Yeah, reading what I wrote, it SOUNDS ridiculous. But, actually reading the thread....that's what it reads like to me.

Do these read slightly off to anyone else? Like he's trying to convince *me* of his reason for voting me? Shouldn't I be the last person he needs to justify himself to? It kind of sounds like he's... afraid of me? And wants to persuade me not to start a wagon on him?

Like, I'm not going to lie, Newman looks pretty bad atm. I just find it incredibly unlikely that *both* scum would be using the same argument that got *them* voted the first time.

I don't know.

[MiniDeathStar]

Io, ignoring that for now, what are your thoughts on the massive/Newman/Flub situation?

[MiniDeathStar]

Kairal once again wins the thread.

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't think Io is necessarily scum for the time travelling though. I think anyone can make a major lapse like that, and if I remember correctly she said she had a migraine and thought Grey was calling Gamma scum. So I'm not surprised she's being a little inconsistent.

She's still scum for other reasons though.

But right now we have this supermassive scum hole and Mr. "Trust me, you're scum if you think about it" Newman, and I think at least one of them is almost certainly mafia.

[MiniDeathStar]

It's called sheeping

And yes I hate it, too.

[MiniDeathStar]

reasonable sheep

lol

[MiniDeathStar]

LOL, yeah Mini, I'm terrified of you.

You guys are so caught up in the "mafiascum meta" that your posts all sound so robotic, and the same. Half the time, I have to double check the username, just to remind myself who's talking. I'm sorry that I post differently than you guys, and by extension seem scummy to you. Sorry, shouldn't say "scummy" because that apparently makes me look bad too.

I'm real simple. I call it as I see it. If y'all don't like that, or think that makes me scum, then vote me.

Why do you think I scumhunt exclusively on meta? I don't.

I thought it was super odd that you (1) used a mod message to call me scum, (2) which was already discredited as an argument and then (3) tried to convince *me* that your argument against myself was genuine.

Like, I should have been the last person you'd need to convince.

I literally don't know what villager would attempt to persuade the mafia herself that she's mafia.

[MiniDeathStar]

Gamma:

I will be V/LA until Wednesday the 14th. Travelling so I probably won't be able to access mafiascum at all.

[MiniDeathStar]

Hi lovelies, I'm finally on solid land but I really can't catch up right now, probably later today. Sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

Spoiler: Summer-y of my catchup

Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and it's not like I really disagree with you a ton. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

I called you scum, and I called scum all the people you called town. Shouldn't you be kind of disagreeing with me on pretty much everything?

That definitely helps to shore up my opinion that you are nowhere near the obvtown that people want me to believe you are.

Obvtown people are such a pain, right? Can't lynch them, can't risk NK'ing them and running into the doctor. What to do, what to do... throw some shade maybe? Yeah! That'll show them!

you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance

But... it *is* anti-town.

Scum can't be paranoid, they have to fake it which is what Newman is doing.

Actually I think there's two kinds of scum paranoia: that you look scummy, and that this person over there is onto you/your colleague and you must discredit them asap.

Your push reeks of covering up what you thought would provide for an easy lynch

Reality check:

I wouldn't be averse to swinging the wagon over to Flubs.

Nah. Flubsy-bubsy is scummy but massive is a whole next dimension of scumminess. I'm still entertaining the slight possibility that Flub is actually town, just really really scummy/lynchbaity town. I remember he was in everyone's scumpile in Io's game and ultimately got mislynched and town lost. That's why I'm going to give him a little more leeway.

MDS, SAJ, maybe Grey

Excellent. Then help me and Grey bus massive.

Umm guys. The Grey/Flub argument is literally the most pointless thing in this thread after the agree/concur debate. Please drop it.

I can think of reasons to vote for Secret Agent Jin, but perhaps you have others to share?

Massive sharing reasons for his vote? Which dimension did you come from, I want there like asap.

Okay done.

Still voting massive, but I could switch over to Io. Unsure about Newman, he looks kind of too scummy to be actual scum atm, if you know what I mean? Like, scum would probably be at least a bit more careful.

[MiniDeathStar]

Like I said it was the entire interaction between the 2, that post was mostly just the wrapping up point. 106 and 110 were the 2 main points I agreed with the most. The comfbais thing can be written off an NAI.

Was that meant for me? I don't think it makes sense if it was, sorry.

too scummy to be actual scum

That's not a thing.

Have you never seen a super scummy villager who just says the wrong things at the wrong time, all the time? I feel like scum would at least make an actual effort not to look so bad.

[MiniDeathStar]

Prove it. Show me any game ever where every unexplained vote was by scum and every explained vote was by town.

Anti-town doesn't always mean scum. Anti-town are just things that hurt town instead of helping (like lurking, claiming without reason and so on). I feel like you should already know this, so why are you pretending you don't know the difference?

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh, so we just disagree. I 100% believe in the powers of tonal reading. Motivations are often ambiguous.

[MiniDeathStar]

How is my voting without explaining my vote "hurting town"? I feel like you should know that all of this stuff, including the stuff you just listed, is NAI, so why are you pushing them as scummy?

I'm pushing them as anti-town, not as scummy? I think I said that twice already.

Blank votes are anti-town because they provide absolutely no information about the motivation and reasoning to vote those people, which makes both the voter and the voted harder to read. Villagers kind of need to read people, it's how they decide on a lynch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Um, honestly 5 days is not *that* little, it's over a third of Day 1. DAE find Io's voteshift onto a leantown read of hers a little worrysome?

Then there's her 601 that was addressed to me, which I asked about and she didn't explain:

Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and

it's not like I really disagree with you a ton

. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

Io says she doesn't disagree with me a lot, even though I
[1] scumread her,
[2] scumread the people she thinks are town (massive and Newman), and
[3] townread the people she thinks are scum (culted, a little bit Aj).

scumslip

,

n

/'skʌmslɪp/

A careless mistake that exposes one as scum.

‘You think I'm scum and your reads the the polar opposite of mine but it's not like I really disagree with you a ton’

VOTE: Io

[MiniDeathStar]

If Newman is town, he's definitely managed to outscum the real scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

Newman is at

L-1

DO NOT HAMMER. ANY HAMMER WITHOUT DECLARING INTENT WILL BE TREATED AS A SCUM CLAIM.

[MiniDeathStar]

December 15, 2016 - 12:00 PM (GMT)

Day 1

In the prolonged absense of the mayor, Gamma Emerald, the citizens of Murdertown tentatively
recounted the vote slips themselves and updated the bulletin board.

HellloooNewman (L-1)

: culted, Aj the Epic, -Grey-, I Am Innocent, Shadow_step, Kairal

massive (L-4)

: Flubbernugget, Secret Agent Jin, Io

Io (L-5)

: Dierfire, MiniDeathStar

MiniDeathStar (L-6)

: HellloooNewman

Secret Agent Jin (L-6)

: massive

Not voting:

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 actions:

December 20, 2016 - 3:30 AM (GMT)

You have (expired on 2016-12-20 03:30:00) to discuss and decide on a lynch.

Unofficial Vote Count

[MiniDeathStar]

Grey, you're kind of a dick, you know that right?

[MiniDeathStar]

You remind me really strongly of somebody I've played with, I just can't quite put my finger on it...

[MiniDeathStar]

You intent to hammer Newman... whom you never scumread. That's cute.

[MiniDeathStar]

You continue to protect Newman and handwring over his eventual lynch. That's supercute.

Actually I couldn't care less if he dies, I just don't think he has nearly as much of a chance of turning scum as you or Io do.

That intent from you to lynch a townread of yours though? *That* was cute.

[MiniDeathStar]

You are protecting him from having to answer questions designed to get a read on him.

Not really, I was more calling you out on your pointless questions. I didn't even remember who you were asking tbh.

You're voting me for either doing exactly what you FOS'ed Newman for, or for NAI stuff.

I wouldn't call your godawful defence and attack 'NAI', but basically yes. Like, Newman looked very bad, and had you not done literally the same thing, I'd have voted him. The difference is that he did all of that *after* you already ate the bullet for it, which I think would be super pointless for scum to do (whether *you* massive are scum or not).

574 intent to re-read, Newman "looks bad" but still not worthy of your vote.

Explained why.

And then THIS piece of scumposting.

I couldn't comprehend why scum!Newman would do what he did, unless he was just terrible at this game. What makes that "scumposting"?

And then the giant "YOU MUST DECLARE INTENT TO HAMMER" sign and then jumping on me for stating such.

That was a standard procedure and had nothing to do with the lynch being Newman. I just noticed Kairal (?) didn't point out his vote put him at L-1 and I wanted to avoid accidental hammers or lolhammers. Honestly mafia-me would have just held her mouth shut.

Now would town!massive intent to hammer a townread of his in a convenient time like this? I think that's the more important question there. So again, why did you intent to hammer him?

I've been townreading Mini but if Newman flips scum massive might be onto something here. Worth considering at least.

You really think scum!me would risk losing her universal town read over *Newman*? Umm nope. If I'd been scum, I'd most likely have börked him before he could do any more damage to the rest of the team.

Nah all we really gotta do is check on him tomorrow and make him prove he's a cop. We got time.

This.

Vote Io

He's the scum we're looking for, you betcha! Also....who is the consensus for who I should investigate tonight? Make your cases people!

*cough* Io is female. Why do you think she's the scum? (I don't disagree btw, I just want to hear *your* case on her)

Newman I want either massive or Io investigated. The one we don't lynch. That said we don't want scum to simply follow your investigation targets so it's probably good to be ambiguous about it.

What Kairal said.

Io, I'm giving you a sec change operation.

Mini is the only female allowed in this thread.

Lmao. What happened to gender equality and equal representation?

Grey hates girls!! Lynch him!

[MiniDeathStar]

I just love how nonchalant Io is at L-1.

[MiniDeathStar]

Welp, 2 out of my 3 FoSes were town. I'm probably totally wrong on at least one townread of mine.

Does anyone have any vital information they could share?

[MiniDeathStar]

@Gamma:

I'm V/LA until Jan 8 but I'll try to post anyway.

[MiniDeathStar]

I can't help but notice that Flub and Aj are doing exactly what Io (tacitly) predicted they would be doing. As much as I still think massive is scum, I can't keep that mindset from yesterday and expect to be correct this time after I was already wrong about Io. I seriously need to reread some ISOs, like culted, Aj and maybe IaI in particular.

Kairal, please don't ignore dead townies' reads and continue your conviction from earlier. I noticed it's a thing you tend to do, and I think you should try to break that habit. Case in point: Open 656, I correctly named 2 of the 3 scum, who everyone else thought were town, on Day 1. I was killed night 1 and it's like everyone totally forgot I ever existed and let the scum live until lylo. NJAC did that, too: he named 1 scum, ended up lynched by that scum, and town forgot about him.

Please don't make the same mistake.

[MiniDeathStar]

You realize her suspect list was not only bad, but included you, not IaI.

Because ours was so much better?

I read through Io's ISO and either I missed it or she never really made a push on IamI - why are Shadow and Mini suddenly pointing fingers there?

IamI is just someone I didn't really care about because I thought I had a bigger fish to fry. Now I don't, so I started to care.

Both of the flips were lynchbait so I can't see much to analyze from it.

Jin is the biggest lynchbait I've ever seen on this site. He almost got lynched as a claimed mason, and he got lynched as a (pretty obvious) villager in a LYLO recently. You flub were in one of those games, so you should know that.

Also there is something to analyse from Io's wagon but I don't have time atm.

I think MDS Saj and massive are scum. Why should the flips discredit that?

Exactly what does this scumteam gain from massive turning on his universally townread partner at the worst possible moment? Getting himself lynched? I didn't really need the towncredit from that. Getting me lynched? That's obviously bad, and the most it could do would be chain a next day lynch onto Shadow because of the "mod confirmed alignment" bs. Shadow is lynchbaity anyway. As for Jin, uhm. Doesn't exactly have a stellar record with being townread. If anyone had to be bussed, it would've been him.

What I'm saying is, making fantasy teams like that without a scumflip is an utter waste of time. A big part of being scum is creating false associations and you should know this. You're not that new to mafia.

I am neither scum or scum. I am Jin, master townie. Anyways, if i had a gun to my head and i had to lay down a vote i would vote massive from going off of yesterday but i was wrong about Newman and IO, so maybe i am not 100% right all the time. About these votes on me, i dont seem to see a case, am i just missing it?

Does anyone find it a bit weird that Jin is carbon-copying *all* of my reads?

[MiniDeathStar]

Shadow is lynchbaity anyway.

Oh please.
People just like to vote me because I'm not nice. That makes me "lynchbaity" so be it. I don't fake stuff.
Also, this being "lynchbaity", I've been mislynched a grand total of zero times. If you don't count the two times I was lol hammered by shit posters not keeping count of the votes and then once I was quick hammered by scum in 3p lylo for the win.

*cough Masquerade game cough*

I did not believe his claim.

Neither did many others, but they were afraid of lynching a claimed cop when he had a chance to prove himself. Why weren't you?

Everyone, your read & willingness to vote/not vote for Dierfire in your next post please.

Townlean. I don't think I want to vote him atm. Replacing out is not alignment indicative.

Rereading this just makes me realize how hard Kairal should be townreading me by now.

Why?

MDS: Why haven't you voted for Newman by 591? I brought it up yesterday as you protecting him but now honestly I'm really curious. Your vote on me was 354. You have at this point in the day spent 5 or 6 posts talking about it. The wagon on me has somewhat abated and the wagon on Newman was building. Why no vote? You eventually say "too scummy to be scum" in 777 but you clearly believe he's scum in 591.

I thought he looked pretty awful, but my FoS on you was stronger and I didn't think you were scum together. It was more of an either/or situation.

You're either criticizing me for not using pre flipped associatives, or you know a LOT more about the scum team than you should.

Obviously your fantasy scum team makes no sense because I'm on it and I'm town. But even assuming I'm scum, it still makes no sense and I explained why.

It's counterproductive to speculate on scum pairs without knowing at least one scum and you know that. You have a decent chance of being wrong about one scumread, and even a bigger chance of being wrong about two. This is without mentioning that scum deliberately play in a way to hide their connections and create false associations with townies. I'm not scumreading you for dreaming up teams, but I don't think it's in any way helpful, especially since you're wrong.

[MiniDeathStar]

That lolhammer was absolutely awful. I didn't even have time to post. Please don't do that like ever again.

By the way: I just finished a game where Kairal was scum and totally fooled me, so I'm no longer locktown on him. Just town.

[MiniDeathStar]

6 - Io: Dierfire, MiniDeathStar, Aj The Epic, HellloooNewman, -Grey-,

I Am Innocent, culted

Secret Agent Jin (6)

culted , I Am Innocent

, Flubbernugget , massive , -Grey- , Kairal LYNCH!

Either we were all absolutely totally wrong as town and scum didn't even need to wagon these people (and make themselves look bad), or scum decided to sponsor them a little bit.

Do you notice a certain pattern here?

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't believe it for a minute. However we can't take the chance. Well I preferred a massive lynch anyway

VOTE: massive

Nah all we really gotta do is check on him tomorrow and make him prove he's a cop. We got time.

VOTE: Io

If I had an investigative role like Cop, I might target Secret Agent Jin or massive (normally a Town result on a player likely to be lynched is not tremendously useful because the Cop has to claim in order to divert the lynch, but with a role already claimed it's almost as useful to have Town results on players likely to be lynched as it is to have Mafia results).

Nah all we really gotta do is check on him tomorrow and make him prove he's a cop. We got time.

This.

I'm a cop!

ffs

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Newman

For the record, I don't believe the claim but am not so sure that I'd risk lynching a cop D1. Let's see what N1 brings and what Io's alignment is before we consider lynching a claimed cop.

unvote Newman
vote Io

Also down for jin lynch too.

I mean, pretty blatant fakeclaim but I can understand the meta.

INTENT TO HAMMER

Yeah still feeling AJ, Flubber, and Culted. Maybe not Culted, but Culted it probably the most likely other person that could be scum.
I think I believe Newman's claim.

Everyone's reactions to Newman's claim. Notice anything that stands out?

[MiniDeathStar]

Kairal, culted, IamI and massive claimed they didn't believe the claim.

Again. Notice a pattern?

[MiniDeathStar]

I've been meaning to take a good hard look at culted and IamI since Yesterday, but I'm on vacation and another game was (and still is) kind of preoccupying me, so that'll have to come in gradually and in small segments. I'm sorry.

But feel totally free to check them yourselves in the meantime. I think Io might have been onto something there.

[MiniDeathStar]

Why are you so attached to Io's reads over your own?

These are my own reads. They just happen to coincide with hers.

What was believable about his claim?

Benefit of the doubt? I don't know of a town that would lynch a claimed cop on day 1 without substantial evidence. What made it a "pretty blatant fakeclaim"?

Do scum usually vote together like I think you are trying to hint with me and culted?

It could be a coincidence but factions that know each other sometimes tend to sheep each other. Scum, masons, cult.

Do scum usually like to be on all the town wagons? (Look at DGBs scumputer and it shows a greater correlation to being scum for players on some town wagons and off other town wagons)

No. But it still depends on individual teams and strategies. And context. Though I suppose you have a point, I don't think either Io or Jin were difficult lynches that really needed the sponsorship of 2 scummos.

Scum would have known Newman was town, so they would have likely believed his claim. So how would scum act? Once again I think you throw out patterns and assume 1, maybe 2 did not believe him and 1, maybe 2 scum did believe him. (Yes this assumes 3 scum total) like voting, scum are usually pretty careful to try to mix it up and blend in, not go all united together as you are hinting.

Scum would also have hoped to capitalise on the opportunity and lynch a scummy cop, or alterantively sheep the village's opinion that the cop is probably fake but we should give him a chance. Scum like conformity because it doesn't stand out.

Mini, it also doesn't count the fact that you are practically rushing the IO lynch yourself

Ehhh not really. I just thought it was really odd. As town I'd always get upset and emotional when I'm about to be lynched, but as scum I'm more composed and level-headed because I know I'm evil. In either case I'd still give off *some* reaction instead of this chilling calm that Io showed.

Meanwhile what is everyone's read on Kairal?

Atm still town. But I'm definitely not as confident as I was before. I don't want to be fooled again.

Still sticking to my suspicions from before + her vca is awful

Why is it awful? And do you have any better?

Easy stuff first!
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The "slip" line from CloudKicker in 43 is still unlikely from a Mafia player. The decreased activity level from Shadow_step is unfortunate but not suspicious in itself; my recollection and limited review of previous games supports the idea that Shadow_step is no less active as Mafia than as Town.
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I Am Innocent was off of my radar for a long time, but now occupies a position that I'd consider among the stronger Town reads. Checking into my predecessor (893) is a level of effort that seems less likely to come from a Mafia player (also it's an unusual target for effort by a Mafia player).
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In addition to all of my previous thoughts about Aj the Epic that still stand (656 mostly), I'm now adding that Aj The Epic responds to Io as I would expect a Town player to. Some of this is difficult to phrase (relies on things like "tone" and "gut"), but I think that I can safely point to things like 434 (very shortly after Io incorrectly attributes a read to Aj The Epic, he corrects her--this suggests a legitimately held read and familiarity with the thought process as opposed to a falsified thought process that needs checking before a response comes together).
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My secondary tier consists of players like MiniDeathStar, Kairal, and culted. I was reading them as Town D1, but due to time/decay and my baseline assumption that I'm wrong about one or more of the players I was reading as Town, I'm less confident in these.

I actually think I agree with this.

How did Kairal deceive you in the previous game, and what implications does that have for your read in this game?

Mostly on tone. He was a lone scum in that game (at least at the time I was still alive) and his tone matched exactly what I'd expect from town him. His style was also very similar to mine back in my newbtown days which made me apply my personal towntells to him. This is what I said about him that game:

Kairal is a new player and he's pretty close to how I was when I was new (as town). It's easy for me to read him because we follow(ed) the same patterns: open with thoughts, sharing every opinion about the game, narrowing down the pool, getting sidetracked into tunnels, carefully interrogating everybody. We *do* have some personality differences but other than that I can easily see my old self in how he's playing atm.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Gamma:

Please replace me. I won't be able to play until the 9th of January.