Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[karnos]

VOTE: Lmkguy

Confusing abbreviations in his username.

[karnos]

VOTE: LmkGuy
Story please.

Alright but don't say I didn't warn you...

I always had lame 12ie names for my accounts, but this name comes from minecraft. Now when I had to make my username for MC, I didn't know about multiplayer and I didn't really care about my name, so I made it

lmknjbhvgcfxdz (+10 internet points if you figure out how I got that)

Then when I started playing other games after this, I used to make my name lmk - chris

One day I was playing Dota2 with some friends and we all added 'guy' onto the ends of our names (so RoughBread became RoughGuy, Enyoyo became EnyoGuy etc etc). I guess after that I figured LmkGuy was as good a name as any, so I just left it and have used it ever since.

If anyone is still awake that's how I came up with my name, its not fucking 'let me know guy'

Anyway, I still think we should kill Karnos for this grievous offence against me

So it's an abbreviation for Let-Me-Know-Guy? Gotcha.

[karnos]

Odds on you being a scum for pushing him so hard so early in the game for no legitimate reason other then you "having a gut scumread" which is a 50/50 true or false (basically a good way to justify an illegitimate reason).

TL;DR you don't really a good reason to push alpaca so hard

Challenge accepted.

VOTE: AlpacaAlpaca

[karnos]

VOTE: karnos

Totes scum.

Could this be the game where we both rolled the same alignment? I feel like it's due, but randomness can be funny.

[karnos]

Odds on you being a scum for pushing him so hard so early in the game for no legitimate reason other then you "having a gut scumread" which is a 50/50 true or false (basically a good way to justify an illegitimate reason).

TL;DR you don't really a good reason to push alpaca so hard

Challenge accepted.

VOTE: AlpacaAlpaca

What does this mean?

It means I am more than willing to be seen as scum for pushing "so hard" early in the game.

1- I don't have a problem with being seen as scum by some random dude I've never played with.

2- Pushing hard and getting a real wagon going is how the game starts to get real, I'm certainly not going to resist it because someone thinks it looks scummy.

[karnos]

This guy still seriously thinks that alpaca is a good lynch.

I thought you wanted to hammer Alpaca. What changed?

[karnos]

How haven't I been causing conflict? Did you miss my argument with pp?

The argument you tried to blow off as a joke?

[karnos]

How haven't I been causing conflict? Did you miss my argument with pp?

The argument you tried to blow off as a joke?

When did I do this?

151 Are you acting dumb on purpose?

[karnos]

And what do you think of karnos?

That is an open question to everyone.

I'm pretty sure he is town.

[karnos]

SCUM DETECTED, LYNCH TRACER ASAP.

People, the post above me is a generic strategy of lazy/afk scum 101... Please gather your votes and remove the scum tracer out of the game. Thank you.

Okay.

VOTE: tracer

[karnos]

And what do you think of karnos?

That is an open question to everyone.

Karnos is on the scummy side of null. Hasn't posted all too much, but when he does, mainly one liners.
@Karnos: Why do you think Tracer is scum besides what iron said?

I don't. Iron seems fairly towny, following his lead seems like a good plan for now in the absence of any strong scum reads.

[karnos]

so you don't think that tracer is scummy but your voting her because you don't have any scum reads? If thats the case do you have any other town reads

I sure do. I don't see any reason to talk about them right now though.

[karnos]

shoo Nero.

[karnos]

so you don't think that tracer is scummy but your voting her because you don't have any scum reads? If thats the case do you have any other town reads

I sure do. I don't see any reason to talk about them right now though.

So you don't see any reason to talk about your reads? Or just the Tracer read?

I don't see the need to announce who my "conf town" are, as all it does is give them a list of good nightkill targets. If someone was getting wagoned hard and I thought they were town, I'd speak up. And when the game progresses it'll be nice to compare reads to find the final scum by PoE, but my general philosophy is that sharing all information at all times is anti-town.

[karnos]

Sharing town reads gives scum a road map to victory.

[karnos]

Sharing town reads gives scum a road map to victory.

Karnos, I remember you saying this exact thing as scum in our first game together. You say you don't have any scum reads(and clearly aren't making an effort to scum hunt) but also that you wouldn't call out who you read as town until they were wagoned. In other words, you're going to lurk and be dead weight for the town until someone you want lynched gets wagoned.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Karnos

That is dead wrong. I shared full reads lists, had multiple "scum" reads, confirmed town as confirmed town etc. And I was scum, that is the one thing you do remember correctly.

And as scum, I won because town sharing full reads gave us an easy path to victory, we just killed the people who scum read us the most and kept town alive who had poor reads.

[karnos]

This was my reads post from the game saru is talking about:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7995623

I'm not sure how anyone can say that that play was similar to my refuse to share irrelevant reads in this game. I doubt saru would pull this BS as scum, because it's so easy to prove wrong, yet nevertheless he is spewing BS that makes no logical sense. I think he is just town that was sore from losing mini 1800 and wants to get me lynched so there is no chance of being fooled again. Unfortunetly, I am town this game, so he is just hurting town by pushing to lynch me.

[karnos]

Greetings all, read the last two pages (or a page and a half, however you care to parse it)

Unvote: AlpacaAlpaca
Vote: Karnos

Explains vote on me via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

The wagon on me appears to be based on activity for a slot that eventually replaced out - the defense rests.

What else is happening right now?

Not a very strong defense. I don't see a need to unvote based on your silly OMGUS and reiteration of what everyone has seen occur in thread.

[karnos]

@Karnos - if you don't think discussing town

and scumreads

are valuable to town how do you propose we find who scum is?

Quit spreading misinformation. I said sharing town reads is counterproductive.

I have no problem at all with the sharing of scum reads, by all means spill your guts: who are your scum reads, alpaca*2?

[karnos]

From Mini 1800. So yes, you did say this. Also, the argument that I would want to lynch you because I'm "sore" from losing to you is silly and egotistic. You didn't even do anything in 1800, that was all Math coaching you. If anything, I wouldn't be sore because I beat Math just recently as scum in my previous game, so I guess I got my revenge?

Also, nice strawman. I clearly said you're not scum hunting this game but are also not willing to provide town reads this game. So you're doing nothing. You're just sitting there, twiddling your thumbs, probably waiting for a town player to get wagoned to hop on.

Yeah okay, you are way over-invested in this because of past games. BTW, your memory is faulty, MathBlade was trying to bus me all game, certainly didn't push to defend me in any way at all.

The fact that you mention beating Math later

proves

had something to make up for after that loss, and nailing me would be obviously #2 on that list. TBH I'm tempted right here to just throw and let town lynch me, because seeing you screw up the game would be satisfying from a personal perspective, but to play to my win condition it would be a terrible play. And then there is the edge case where scum!Saru risks it all because of a personal vendetta against me, it would be a utter fail to let you get me miss-lynched in that case.

And you are wrong. I am scum hunting, I'm sorry if you aren't observant enough to realize that. Sometimes the best way to catch scum is to dangle a bit of bait.

[karnos]

The bolded has nothing to do with what I've been saying, but ok?

Oh come one now, we aren't that stupid. "You didn't even do anything in 1800, that was all Math coaching you. " Is there some other interpretation to that other than you trying to implie that I only survived until endgame and won as scum (with a single loss of my team for that matter) was because MathBlade carried me. Yet he was busing me the whole game, so the implication in your post is an obvious lie. Yes, you are being careful to not directly lie, but instead you are making statements that are only actually relevant if you make assumptions that aren't actually true.

I was at L-1 several times in that game. MathBlade didn't jump in and save me, in fact he was voting me every time. You and the rest of town in that game made the decision to not lynch me, repeatedly, because of my actions. MathBlade was an awesome scum partner and we bounced a lot of ideas in scum chat, but if you are going to claim he was coaching me all game you need to re-visit the game and the scum thread.

You have some really dumb arguments.

Okay, that sounds like something worth talking about, instead of this irrelevant meta-gaming argument that I must be scum. What are my dumb arguments, from this game?

The only reason I mention Math is because I'm trying to prove a point that even if your argument about "vendetta" had any merit, it would be disproven by that. You brought it up first, genius.

How can you be so oblivious? I brought it up without having any idea whatsover that you later "beat" MathBlade in another game. I was guessing it might be a personal vendetta, you confirmed my guess. If I brought it up and I was wrong you wouldn't have confirmed my statement by admitting that were apparently keeping score.

Also, #2? wtf!? lmfao! I guess I should start seeking out Magna too to make sure I get my personal revenge on him? You really sound foolish, you're doing nothing to help the town, and just seeking to discredit me but not my arguments. You need rope. Badly.

Magna? Wow, you memorized the whole scumteam from that game. More evidence that it apparently hit really hard when you got that loss.

I have no problem at all with the sharing of scum reads, by all means spill your guts: who are your scum reads, alpaca*2?

"I have no problem saying my scum reads, but hey, here's a post where I don't put out scum reads." LOL

Yeah, sorry I care more about quality than quantity. Your scum read of me is dead wrong, might want to fix your radar. I mean if I wanted to act like Saru I could give a handful of scum reads based on idiotic meta observations, but they wouldn't be very accurate.

[karnos]

TBH I'm tempted right here to just throw and let town lynch me, because seeing you screw up the game would be satisfying from a personal perspective, but to play to my win condition it would be a terrible play.

This is a terrible over-reaction, and feels fake as fuck.

I also kinda get the same feeling about it being fake I hate those "just lynch me" reactions.

Yeah, cool, you both get a feeling of something being fake that I am not even doing, that is nice. Care to comment on what I actually am doing?

[karnos]

As for Karnos, he is playing a scum recklessly or he is a frustrated town member. I am not too sure which side of the fence he lands on, based on reading his ISO. I am not super convinced of the meta-scum argument that saru is basing his read off, but his reaction to said read is what interests me the most. It seems like he is getting extremely worked up over this and that is why I have my read on him as either frustrated townie or overconfident scum.

Incoming off-topic game play theory, skip if you don't care.

Meh, it's an evolution in my play. I'm not a long time veteran, but I have been playing here for some 9 months or so I think. When I first started, I played like this, and I got scum-read for it, and sometimes miss-lynched. After a few games I adjusted my play style to something that fits more into the general "town meta" of these boards, and didn't get miss-lynched as often, but it didn't actually make me win any more often as town.

I've come to realize that playing to the meta is really just playing to lose. At best you play the same as everyone else and maybe have a 50% chance to win, but anyone smart enough to play in a way that counters the general meta style will easily deceive you. I'm not going to play to lose. If it gets my lynched because my fellow town players are too dumb to think there might be a way to play other than standard meta, so be it- if that is the case is probably a loser game for town anyway, so my lynch won't change anything anyway. So that is where this defeatist attitude comes from. I am not going to change my play style, I am not going to give you your "reads" you want so bad, because it's BAD PLAY.

I mean, the most hilarious thing to me about the common meta here is that giving town reads is seen as A+++ good townie move, but any speculation at all about power roles is super bad scummy play. Except if someone is actually scum, they can discuss PR in scum chat, while town reads just give scum a guide on who to kill first, who to bus, etc. It's hilariously bad logic, but because it's become ingrained into the meta here everyone seems to think it's a good way to play.

[karnos]

You clearly don't know the difference between being coached and being bussed. Yes, Math bussed the shit out of you, but that has nothing to do with the fact that she coached your play throughout. In fact, it has nothing to do with what I've been saying. She literally would fix minute details of your posts and read lists to make them more townie-friendly. Her bussing you means nothing. That was her doing things to make herself look more townie because of site meta.

Doesn't this sound ridiculous to anyone else?

MathBlade busing me meant an extra vote on me. My other scum partner was also busing me much of the game. And you STILL failed to get me lynched- in fact you decided I was a good target to recruit as a mason, and you killed yourself trying to recruit me. I guess that is why you are still sore about it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=66834

For the record, MathBlade didn't want me to claim Neapolitan, yet I did because I knew it was a decent play. It saved me from lynch day 1, and every day after. Apparently it fooled you too. Feel free to continue to blame the loss on MathBlade, but saying I did "nothing" that game is just pure ignorance.

The dumb argument is that you think I'm pushing you because I'm mad about the loss, and you're still pushing that line of attack. That is not an argument for why you're town, but only an argument to discredit me as a person. As scum, it's in your best interest to just discredit when you don't have an argument. And I'm not using meta to call you scum. Forget for a moment that I even mentioned Mini 1800. How about what I said about your play this game with you doing nothing? You have time to respond to my posts accusing you, but can't muster up the time to scum-hunt or put out reads? I don't think so.

You are really not paying attention. I thought you were town, sore about the loss. How in any way is that me discrediting you as a person?

But the way you have started obsessing over this and trying to defend your obvious lies makes me think that maybe you are scum, and you don't dare admit where you lied. Town!Saru could just say saru for the misteak, I was wrong. Scum!Saru has to won the argument, as wrong as it is, and push it until you get your miss lynch. This is looking like the later.

What? Are you even reading what I said? I said that your argument of personal vendetta is total nonsense and I was making a mostly jokish remark about beating Math, therefore having gotten my "revenge." It was a poke at your silly argument. See: the laughing emote at the end of that sentence.

If it's nonsense why are you so focused on it? Why are you keeping score? Why are you re-reading old games of mine? Are you reading through old games for everyone in the game... 12 players *X games each.. where do you have the time? Or is this just a personal vendetta against me?

Guess what buddy, there are things called archives. You can go back and read games from the past, surprise, I know!

Yes you can. My question is why just me? If you are legitimately scum hunting, you should be reading through everyone's games or no ones games. Why are you hyper focused on me?

So your excuse for not scum hunting is because you wouldn't be very accurate? I guess we should all just stop scum hunting then and wait until the deadline? Like, that is no excuse. No one is perfect, myself included. Yes, you might be wrong, so what? Atleast you tried. Or would you rather be a dead weight all game?

I'm voting someone. Are you reading the tracer/thor slot as town? Why not talk about that if you have issue with my scum hunting?

I don't think sharing town reads is pro-town. That is my stance, period. That doesn't mean I am not scum hunting, quit trying to put lies into my mouth. That is what scum does. You are quickly eroding the bias-town read I had of you and turning it into a malicious-scum read.

[karnos]

If you claim who your scum reads are - what prevents scum from just reversing the list to get your town reads?

This turns into a circular argument: as town, why should I bother giving you guys my town reads, you can just look at my scum reads and use PoE to see who I read as town.

Of course the real answer is that it's more complex than that. There are varying levels: "confirmed town, obvious town, probably town, nullish town, etc. If, for the sake of argument, I was being globally read as obvious town, and of course scum knows I am town, they might use that information to nightkill me because they know I would be hard to get a miss lynch on. OTOH if I am largely read as scum, null, or at best nullish town, that tells scum that they can let me live and try to get me killed through a lynch. But if you don't give out town reads as specific as that, all the scum really gets is that X people scum read karnos, no idea about the rest... they have less information.

It's good to keep town power roles secret from scum, everyone agrees on that. So why is it good to tell scum who your most trusted town reads are? It's completely illogical.

That doesn't work with PRs last I checked, because there's no such thing as a "not a PR list".
The proper compare - would be forcing multiple claims, especially on slots you don't scum read, which does narrow down scum's pools, and people do argue that as anti town.

First you say there isn't a "not PR list", and then you point out that such a thing actually does exist once people start claiming. You contradicted yourself here, so I don't really need to go into further detail. Suffice to say it's yet another illogical contradiction of the common meta that it's terrible bad to speculate about power roles but it's A+ good to get a claim out of a suspected scum.

Your debate with Saru is becoming very much white noise to me. I do tend to agree with his stance, because you appear to be more emotionally worked up, and I think his point about suggesting his scum read on you is based on you beating him elsewhere is pretty plainly fabricated (feel free to explain how it's a valid issue if you can - it looks like flail to me).

Are you calling Saru scummy?
If not, can we drop the debate and/or simply focus on what he's calling you scummy over?

@Saru - same goes for you, let's just pretend you bested Karnos on all the piddly points, and narrow down those walls by about half, yeah?

In the scenario where Saru is scum, and the Tracer/Thor slot is scum, this is scum!Thor telling Saru to back off because he is drawing too much attention to himself and he will be the next one lynched after I flip town.

[karnos]

So - how does your case make any sense at all in any way?

It's scummy that you're still acting like it does.
Justify your play?

But what have you don since you replaced in? You placed an OMGUS vote on me, and... pretty much nothing else. Until your last post on the Saru/Karnos argument, pretty much all your posts have been self defense. Where are you scum hunting? You aren't me, and you don't seem to agree with my philosophy on sharing reads, so where are your reads?

[karnos]

I think you are easily more likely to be flipped than Saru from this debate - in fact it is my intention to flip you regardless of the debate.
I don't see Saru being particularly at risk regardless of your flip though - no one is remotely making that claim.
Arguably, myself as your largest scumread (maybe) is the more likely person to be lynched if you flip town, right?

I note that you don't actually clarify the simple question of if you're scumreading him for these comments, nor do you address me pointing out how you're flailing, which you are.

Am I getting this correctly?

You want me lynched, and you don't care if I am town, but you are pretty sure Saru is town and you don't want him read as scum for getting a townie lynched.

That sounds pretty damn scummy to me, but maybe I am misunderstanding you.

[karnos]

I would suggest that my "OMGUS" is scumhunting. I expressed why I found you scummy, voted you, and that is a far more active and clear stance than my predecessor. It's pretty silly to suggest I'm playing like here whether or not I have a lot of reads now, because you've played with me multiple times and are fully aware that inactivity and hiding my opinions is not how I play regardless of alignment, so why are you trying to suggest that it is?

Why are you putting OMGUS in quotes?

Can you re-phrase your case on me without mentioning the fact that I am voting your slot? I don't think so.

[karnos]

As to my reads, currently I have expressed scum on you and Iro though I have said your scum flip would pretty much auto town Iro for me. By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden . I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

So you think my strategy is flawed, but you are following it anyway? That would be anti-town from your point of view.

[karnos]

If scum can't figure out confirmed town and obvious null read lurkers and then look at scum reads to not be able to figure out town reads - then I think town has less things to worry about then stating their town reads.

I'm tired of the walls, but I want to respond to this point because it's such BS.

So you think scum can figure out who is town-read without read lists easily enough, but you think town are too dumb to figure out the same?

Why is it pro-town to share town reads if players can figure out town reads so easily anyway?

Or, if you think scum can figure out town reads but town players can't, why do you think players lose several dozen points of IQ when they roll town?


In truth, I think the opposite is generally true. Scum already know who is town! They start with perfect information on that, they don't need to analyze posts as much as town. town are trying to figure out who is scum, and in that process develop some useful town reads. But when it comes time to pick a night kill, scum love nothing mroe than nice organized lists that they can look at and compare to figure out the best kill target.

[karnos]

My bad, I left out the tags - edited them back in to help you.

The tags don't change shit. You still aren't sharing reads, which from my understanding is something Thor doesn't believe is pro-town.

As a joke or not, why are you acting anti-town?

[karnos]

Why are you putting OMGUS in quotes?

Can you re-phrase your case on me without mentioning the fact that I am voting your slot? I don't think so.

Explains the vote he is making

via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

Done and done.

So your idea of a case without mentioning the vote on you is to just mention that I am making a vote and leave out the fact that it is a vote on your slot. I see you are very jokey today. Do you have any serious answers or are you now willing to admit it's obvious a case of OMGUS?

[karnos]

Maybe I overestimated your grasp of sarcasm, or underestimated my ability to make a joke?

I guess you are just scum.

The point is you were asked to provide reads. A joke isn't reads. Your case against me, if I understand it correctly, is my refusal to share reads + my vote on your slot. But here you are using sarcasm and joking instead of offering reads.

You are the one who is saying sharing reads is a good thing and yet you are not doing that.

[karnos]

Your case against me, if I understand it correctly, is my refusal to share reads

I did what in the where now?
I happily disagree that it is pro town, but I never said it made you scummy.
I said the concept that you're claiming it is anti-town while performing actions that don't agree with your stated concept of how to play pro-town is scummy.
Functionally I'm calling your hypocrisy scummy.
You're now arguing insane things with me.

@Iro - why the direct dodge of my question about your case on me followed by sheeping onto the wagon I'm currently supporting?

402 "Explains the vote he is making via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right."

In 402 you said you find me scummy because of 1- voting you, 2- because of my philosophy on sharing town reads.

If it doesn't make me scummy, then why is it your stated case on me? Are you saying you don't find me scummy, but you are voting me anyway? Is that an accidental scum claim?

[karnos]

Ah, I guess you are ignoring 340 and calling me a hypocrite because I shared a town read.

Sorry, nice try but that argument doesn't fly. I am against needlessly sharing town reads, but I will share reads if there is a clear benefit. In the case of voting you and following iron's lead it was a clear case, at least to me, where sharing my town read of him was overall a positive.

[karnos]

If it helps your ego, then sure, you totally helped your team win the game man. Totally. Again, this discussion isn't really relevant to what I'm talking about and just serves as a distraction.

LOL, it's not about my ego. Your whole point was you didn't care about losing to me because you didn't think I did anything to cause you to lose. That is, you were trying to make it sound like you have no reason to be bias against me. After changing your story, you now have a reason to be bias. I get the obvious sarcasm, but sarcasm can just be a convenient way for you to avoid answering a hard question truthfully when you know the answer paints you as a liar.

It's you saying

"don't listen to anything Saru has to say about me because his judgement is clouded from a previous game!"

Besides that just being a flail argument, that is also an attempt to discredit me, and not arguing against my arguments. It basically tries to invalidate any point I try to make on you with a broad brush.

What post of mine is that quote from? Don't misrepresent me, don't use quote marks if you are not actually quoting me, that is the same as lying.

I mean sure it is a flail argument, but it's one I didn't make so what is your point?

I know for a fact you're lying here about my meta because from Mini 1800 it should be clear that the latter is more town!Saru. I literally posted like a half a page wall on Dierfire in 1800 and I didn't let down on him until he was lynched. And even when he flipped town, I didn't stop walling on people. As town, I'm pretty damn out there because as scum I'm too scared of being lynched to get into wall arguments with people. My last game as scum is a good example of that. I lurked 24/7 basically.

I'm not claiming anything about your meta. If you are town and you want to win, and you made an obvious error in an accusation, you should realize that the scum read based on an error is leading you astray. It has nothing to do with your meta, it has to do with fucking basic logic. If your initial assumptions are wrong, your result is going to come out wrong as well. The fact that you instead keep trying to twist things around and move your goalposts show that you don't see me as scum because of my refusal to share reads, but instead you just decided I was scum (or an easy miss lynch) and are making up reasons after the fact.

[karnos]

Can you flail a little less? Thanks. Point to a post where I said I was reading old games of you? I've not read a single old game of yours. Everything I've been saying when it comes to past things is in reference to 1800, if you haven't noticed, since that's the only game we've played together. So you're either lying or you're so scared to be lynched that you're just typing without thinking. Either way, you're scum.

You need to learn how to read properly. Go look at what that "archives" point was responding to.

When I said you memorized the whole scumteam, this was your response:
"Guess what buddy, there are things called archives. You can go back and read games from the past, surprise, I know!"

So were you lying then when you implied that you went back to read the game (which means I was right on the money, you did memorize the scum team), or are you lying now, saying you have not read a single old game of mine? Which one is a lie?

I'm voting someone. Are you reading the tracer/thor slot as town? Why not talk about that if you have issue with my scum hunting?

You voted someone by sheeping another person who you thought was town. Nice scum hunting skillz. Also, scum now knows that you town read iron. Good job, you just handed them the game. /sarcasm
[/quote]

More sarcasm. Afraid to take a real stance against my points now, so you have to resort to joking and sarcasm. You can't afford to get caught up in more lies, so don't say a single thing in a serious manner. I got you figured out.

I don't think sharing town reads is pro-town. That is my stance, period. That doesn't mean I am not scum hunting, quit trying to put lies into my mouth. That is what scum does. You are quickly eroding the bias-town read I had of you and turning it into a malicious-scum read.

Funny. What happened to my "personal vendetta?" Guess that argument of yours was BS after all lmfao.[/quote]

What? Are you now trying to argue that because of being bias against me, you couldn't have rolled scum? how exactly does your personal bias interact with the moderators role & alignment selection process?

It doesn't. You are making an idiotic argument. You are bias, and you might be scum or town, doesn't change that fact.

[karnos]

EBWODP

Can you flail a little less? Thanks. Point to a post where I said I was reading old games of you? I've not read a single old game of yours. Everything I've been saying when it comes to past things is in reference to 1800, if you haven't noticed, since that's the only game we've played together. So you're either lying or you're so scared to be lynched that you're just typing without thinking. Either way, you're scum.

You need to learn how to read properly. Go look at what that "archives" point was responding to.

When I said you memorized the whole scumteam, this was your response:
"Guess what buddy, there are things called archives. You can go back and read games from the past, surprise, I know!"

So were you lying then when you implied that you went back to read the game (which means I was right on the money, you did memorize the scum team), or are you lying now, saying you have not read a single old game of mine? Which one is a lie?

I'm voting someone. Are you reading the tracer/thor slot as town? Why not talk about that if you have issue with my scum hunting?

You voted someone by sheeping another person who you thought was town. Nice scum hunting skillz. Also, scum now knows that you town read iron. Good job, you just handed them the game. /sarcasm

More sarcasm. Afraid to take a real stance against my points now, so you have to resort to joking and sarcasm. You can't afford to get caught up in more lies, so don't say a single thing in a serious manner. I got you figured out.

I don't think sharing town reads is pro-town. That is my stance, period. That doesn't mean I am not scum hunting, quit trying to put lies into my mouth. That is what scum does. You are quickly eroding the bias-town read I had of you and turning it into a malicious-scum read.

Funny. What happened to my "personal vendetta?" Guess that argument of yours was BS after all lmfao.

What? Are you now trying to argue that because of being bias against me, you couldn't have rolled scum? how exactly does your personal bias interact with the moderators role & alignment selection process?

It doesn't. You are making an idiotic argument. You are bias, and you might be scum or town, doesn't change that fact.

[karnos]

In the case of voting you and following iron's lead it was a clear case, at least to me, where sharing my town read of him was overall a positive.

A positive how?

Let me explain it to you like you are five.

Karnos votes Thor.

Someone asks why.

Karnos says "no reason".

Karnos gets lynched, Karnos flips town.

That is a net negative, in any measure. You can try to twist my words around as much as you want, as long as the town players are smart enough to see through your misrepresentation I don't think I have anything to worry about.

[karnos]

wtf? So then you disproved yourself in regards to your stance of never sharing town reads

That has

never

been my stance and you know it.

This repeated obviously intentional misrepresentation can only be scum motivated, you aren't that stupid to play like this as town.

VOTE: Saru

[karnos]

402 "Explains the vote he is making via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right."

In 402 you said you find me scummy because of 1- voting you, 2- because of my philosophy on sharing town reads.

If it doesn't make me scummy, then why is it your stated case on me? Are you saying you don't find me scummy, but you are voting me anyway? Is that an accidental scum claim?

That's not what I say in 402 - in 402 what I do is say that there is hypocrisy in claiming and sheeping a townread while not chasing your own scumreads considering your stated meta. You could have voted any of a theory claimed townread's scum reads and my case would be just as valid.

You are Saru both seem to have a major reading comprehension problem.

"if someone was getting wagoned hard and I thought they were town, I'd speak up. And when the game progresses it'll be nice to compare reads to find the final scum by PoE, but my general philosophy is that sharing all information at all times is anti-town."

You read my post above and still believe sharing a single town read for a reason is inconsistent with it, you are scum. Saru is your partner. No other explanation.

[karnos]

The point of the hypocrisy is - your concept of hiding town reads is to protect them from scum.

Nope. You aren't this dumb to misunderstand things so badly as town, you are scum trying to misrepresent me.

Nothing is going to prevent scum from getting a night kill except a lucky doc. That isn't the goal of not sharing town reads. The idea is that if the town, overall has a general "obv town" guy and a "maybe kinda scummy but i think he is town" guy, that gives scum the easy path to victory of killing the obv town and leaving the sorta scummy town guys who are much more likely to be night killed.

By sharing a single read, I tell scum basically nothing to help them in the above. Sure, they know I think iron is town, but they don't know if I might have other even townier town reads, or less towny reads. They are still in the dark.

[karnos]

You are Saru both seem to have a major reading comprehension problem.

"if someone was getting wagoned hard and I thought they were town, I'd speak up. And when the game progresses it'll be nice to compare reads to find the final scum by PoE, but my general philosophy is that sharing all information at all times is anti-town."

You read my post above and still believe sharing a single town read for a reason is inconsistent with it, you are scum. Saru is your partner. No other explanation.

Or you seem to have a consistency and hypocrisy problem. The quote that you bolded has 0 to do with you sheeping Iron because you town read him.

"if someone was getting wagoned hard and I thought they were town, I'd speak up."
You weren't speaking up about a town player being wagoned, so this has nothing to do with what Thor and I are talking about.

"And when the game progresses it'll be nice to compare reads to find the final scum by PoE, but my general philosophy is that sharing all information at all times is anti-town."
And there was no need to share your read on Iron today because the game hasn't progressed yet. It's still D1, so why do it if it's anti-town? You literally just claimed to be anti-town.

Saru, you said "your stance of never sharing town reads"

"if someone was getting wagoned hard and I thought they were town, I'd speak up. And when the game progresses it'll be nice to compare reads to find the final scum by PoE, but my general philosophy is that sharing all information at all times is anti-town."

That is what my stance actually was, and still is. Notice how I said I would speak up in some cases, and reveal town reads as the game progresses? That is the opposite of "never sharing town reads".

Simply put, I caught you in a lie and now you are trying to move the goal posts and change the subject. Nice try scum. Enjoy your rope.

[karnos]

You said:
"if someone was getting wagoned hard and I thought they were town, I'd speak up."
But the situation your ass was caught in was sheeping Iron, who you gave a town read to. Iron wasn't being wagoned, so he didn't have to be revealed to be a town read by you. So you aren't even consistent in your own stance.

If Iron was being wagoned and you said "Nah guys chill, he's town and I town read him" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's not what happened. Your scum. kthxbai.

Spoiler: saru logic

Saru, you never said you would use meta arguments against me, and then you used one against me at the beginning of the game! That means you are scum!

/saru logic

Now back to reality, you aren't a liar because you did something you didn't say you would do. You are a liar if you do something you said you wouldn't do.

If I had said something like "I will never share a single scum read". then you might have a valid point.

If.

But if I didn't say that? (Hint: I didn't). Your argument is bullshit.

[karnos]

Saru and Thor have the same avatar drawn in different styles.

/Irrelevant but observations.

[karnos]

There's enough people at various times trying to passive-aggressively derail this karnos wagon that it's probably right. At least some of them must be protecting a buddy.

VOTE: karnos

Why is it that you suddenly think any counter wagon is a buddy protecting me, when it is equally likely to be a counter wagon protecting Thor?

Also: why do you think a counter wagon could be a buddy protecting scum, but you don't think the Thor/Saru tag-team against me could be scum buddies?

Do you have a reason to think I am scum outside of these circumstantial stretches?

[karnos]

[quote="In post 449If the town is 100% set on lynching karnos I'll help out but like I think knight is just coming off terrible here and I can't leave that alone.[/quote]


Town isn't. It's a scum pushed wagon, I guarantee it. If I do get lynched, flip Saru tomorrow.

[karnos]

@Karnos - what is your read on Iro as currently stands with his vote and read hopping around your wagon? Answered on the presumption you are town, natch

I think he is probably town still. I saw his vote on me as sort of a reaction test, and/or trying to figure out where the wagon on me was going. I don't see why he would switch votes as scum.

I doubt he accurately guessed the entire scum team, but I see why he listed the three he did. IMO if you and Saru are scum, the 3rd scum is probably staying far away from my wagon because of risk of being all caught by association is too high. There is also a fair chance that between you and Saru one is actually town just being taken advantage of by the scum, but I'm fairly confident that at least one of you is scum

[karnos]

@Mod I'm actually voting Saru. From

427

[karnos]

I don't find you scummy, so I'm not voting for you. Others were, and now they are hopping off. I would like to hear why as the answers provided thus far were not very informative.

I switched to Saru because his misrepresentations stink of scum to me, and puts him in the #1 scum slot in my reads. Thor is still my second pick , and I'll probably switch back to voting him if it comes down to deadline without a viable Saru lynch.

[karnos]

Was re-reading a bit, this stuck out to me.

Not seeing it, this feels like flail, sticking to my take.

Are you claiming you have never seen a town flail?

TBH, the term "flail" is highly abused and doesn't really have a strict definition, so I don't agree in it's usage to describe my behavior, but even if you think I am flailing does that somehow make me more likely to be scum?

[karnos]

I think he is probably town still. I saw his vote on me as sort of a reaction test, and/or trying to figure out where the wagon on me was going. I don't see why he would switch votes as scum.

I could easily see him switching votes as scum, I find it less likely that he would do what he did if you weren't a buddy though, i;ll agree with that.
How do you think he reaction tested anything though?

He got no reaction at all, afaik. If he was expecting a certain reaction from me as scum and didn't get it, then that would be a reason to unvote.

[karnos]

I will agree that it makes perfect sense, if town reading you, to think one of those three is scum.
Calling all three the scumteam though is nonsensical, and I think you realize that but aren't saying it clearly for some reason.

I said "I doubt he accurately guessed the entire scum team", I don't see how I was unclear at all. Why are you having trouble reading my posts?

[karnos]

It's not like Saru nor I are flailing all over you - we're being very specific, and you can't handle that. Hence the flail. Hence the scum read.

Yes, you are being very specifically wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong: your assertion is that I am scum because I said I would never share a single town read, after claiming to have a town read on iron.

The problem being, I NEVER said that I wouldn't share a single town read. I specifically said that sharing all information was anti-town, but then I gave several examples of exceptions to that. I actually didn't think it would be necessary to spell out an exception in something I was already doing, but I guess scum can be pedantic and their arguments.

[karnos]

Do you think he would honestly expect 100% of the scum team to gang jump on a single player?
You know that's weird reasoning.

So what? It's still the correct play to lynch your top scum reads, even if it's unlikely they are all scum.

Picking randomly, you are about 23% likely to find scum in this game.

Picked from a pool of 3, in which 2 are scum, you are 66% likely to hit scum. Even if he (and I, as I share similar reads on you and Saru) are way off and only one of the 3 are actually scum, that is still a 33% chance of hitting scum, significantly above the average.

[karnos]

Hmm this GreyICE replace in really turned the game around, I need to re-read a bit and think about things.

[karnos]

Oh. I wish you hadn't done that.

Why?

[karnos]

Knighty Knight has requested replacement.

Searching for one now.

And I was just thinking he would be a good alternative lynch.

[karnos]

The problem being, I NEVER said that I wouldn't share a single town read. I specifically said that sharing all information was anti-town, but then I gave several examples of exceptions to that. I actually didn't think it would be necessary to spell out an exception in something I was already doing, but I guess scum can be pedantic and their arguments.

So what is the logic of this exception to your rule?
It's okay to call out a town read to sheep him on a slot that you maybe sorta scumread?
Explain how that logic works within your reasoning to not reveal townreads - because I am missing it.

What you are missing is that I said I didn't want to reveal ALL town reads. Revealing one town read is not revealing all town reads. Revealing two town reads is not revealing ALL town reads.

Are you really all hung up on this because you don't know the difference between "any" & "all"?

[karnos]

So it's okay to reveal any number of townreads - allowing scum to know who people townread - as long as you don't reveal 'all' town reads, because this will not allow them to know who people townread?

If you actually read through my ISO, you wouldn't be asking such questions.

I don't see the need to announce who my "conf town" are, as all it does is give them a list of good nightkill targets. If someone was getting wagoned hard and I thought they were town, I'd speak up. And when the game progresses it'll be nice to compare reads to find the final scum by PoE, but my general philosophy is that sharing all information at all times is anti-town.

There are varying levels: "confirmed town, obvious town, probably town, nullish town, etc. If, for the sake of argument, I was being globally read as obvious town, and of course scum knows I am town, they might use that information to nightkill me because they know I would be hard to get a miss lynch on. OTOH if I am largely read as scum, null, or at best nullish town, that tells scum that they can let me live and try to get me killed through a lynch. But if you don't give out town reads as specific as that, all the scum really gets is that X people scum read karnos, no idea about the rest... they have less information.

Scum already know who is town! They start with perfect information on that, they don't need to analyze posts as much as town. town are trying to figure out who is scum, and in that process develop some useful town reads. But when it comes time to pick a night kill, scum love nothing mroe than nice organized lists that they can look at and compare to figure out the best kill target.

Nothing is going to prevent scum from getting a night kill except a lucky doc. That isn't the goal of not sharing town reads. The idea is that if the town, overall has a general "obv town" guy and a "maybe kinda scummy but i think he is town" guy, that gives scum the easy path to victory of killing the obv town and leaving the sorta scummy town guys who are much more likely to be night killed.

By sharing a single read, I tell scum basically nothing to help them in the above. Sure, they know I think iron is town, but they don't know if I might have other even townier town reads, or less towny reads. They are still in the dark.

[karnos]

Knighty Knight has requested replacement.

Searching for one now.

And I was just thinking he would be a good alternative lynch.

Then hop on the wagon.

But I still think Saru &/or Thor are scum. Lets see what the replace has to say.

[karnos]

Nothing is going to prevent scum from getting a night kill except a lucky doc. That isn't the goal of not sharing town reads. The idea is that if the town, overall has a general "obv town" guy and a "maybe kinda scummy but i think he is town" guy, that gives scum the easy path to victory of killing the obv town and leaving the sorta scummy town guys who are much more likely to be

night killed.

By sharing a single read, I tell scum basically nothing to help them in the above. Sure, they know I think iron is town, but they don't know if I might have other even townier town reads, or less towny reads. They are still in the dark.

Bolded should be "miss lynched", missed that error when I originally posted.

[karnos]

But I still think Saru &/or Thor are scum. Lets see what the replace has to say.

Then why did you think he would be a "good alternative wagon" if you think scum is in Saru/Thor?

Because there are 3 scum, and if neither Saru nor Thor are lynched today, I'm going to pick the next best option...

[karnos]

@Karnos - you're selling, I'm not buying.

I wouldn't expect scum!Thor to be convinced by anything I post, so this isn't shocking.

[karnos]

I find it scummy as hell when someone who has been coasting for weeks suddenly gets a little pressure then decides to quit. Esp when others follow that with "oh too bad, I was super ready to jump on that wagon you guyz"

Excuse me if I'd like to hear some reads from the replace, and get a claim, before letting some scum hammer the wagon.

[karnos]

But I still think Saru &/or Thor are scum. Lets see what the replace has to say.

Then why did you think he would be a "good alternative wagon" if you think scum is in Saru/Thor?

Because there are 3 scum, and if neither Saru nor Thor are lynched today, I'm going to pick the next best option...

So, it's not that you think scum is in Saru/Thor. It's that you think that Saru, Thor, and Knighty are scum.

No.

I think Sara is likely scum.
I think Thor is likely scum.
I think Knighty is probably scum.

They could all 3 be scum, or not. Tomorrow, if one of them is flipped today, additional information might cause me to adjust these reads.

There is no such thing as a 100% scum read. Even if we were talking about a game in which only 2 scum exist (such as a newbie game here), I'd still rather lynch my 3rd choice than someone else, because I could be wrong about my 1st or 2nd choice.

[karnos]

I think

Saru

is likely scum.

fix

[karnos]

@karnos: 3 days left and it doesn't look like either wagon is going to take off. I know you love putting people at L-1...

I will after the replace. I don't want to see my L-1 immediately hammered before we can at least get a claim & reads.

[karnos]

Why do you think it would be immediately hammered?

Chrome ate my post. Attempt #2.


If I am right on the money about Saru *or* Thor, I think a scum partner of might go ahead and hammer town!Knighty to avoid any chance of the wagon growing on the actual scum. The scum could then turn things against you or others who were strongly in favor of lynching Knighty.

That said, I could be off base, and/or Knighty could possibly be scum with Thor or Saru. I will put him at L-1 24 hours to deadline, or after we have heard from a replace.

If someone else beats me to the punch, consider this a tentative

intent to hammer

, I don't want any cheap excuses from the replace about not claiming because nobody gave intent.

[karnos]

Why do you want to wait until so close to deadline? Pretty anti-town, especially considering there is no alternative wagon at this moment.

Do you think there is a serious danger of being stuck with a no-lynch?

[karnos]

VOTE: Fire Assassin

Please claim, offer reads on slots other than your own.

Town: it's a scum claim to quick hammer, don't do it.

[karnos]

Do you think there is a serious danger of being stuck with a no-lynch?

Well in your case, you put him at L-1 with 24 hours left. The intent comes sometime within the next 4-6 hours, let's say. He claims town PR and we currently have 3 alternative wagons at two votes each. So, 18 hours to convince people to compromise on a wagon. I'm not as concerned with ending with a no lynch as I am with a rushed, compromise lynch. Scrambling at the end of the day to secure a lynch is the type of play that scum likes, so I don't understand why you - as town - would advocate for it.

He is replaced, so this is irrelevant now.

But how would me putting him at L-1 when the slot is absent help in getting a claim/reads? If nobody is playing the slot, we aren't getting anything.

[karnos]

For the record, from what little I have read, I am townreading GreyIce.
I need to go more into the game though since I have zero scumreads.

Read up through the Thor:karnos crap. Tell me if you think I am scum, or he is. Or maybe you think we are both scum busing each other, whatever it is I want to hear your opinion of that particular interaction.

Mainly because I think Thor is scum and he seem to be pretty sure I am scum.

[karnos]

Karnos, what did you think of Tracer?

Present tense: upon re-reading, seems fairly scummy to me.

Past tense: I didn't think she was too much obv scum at the time when she was still in the game, but I didn't have a scum read on anyone else at the time either.

[karnos]

Ugh, I want a Saru wagon to be true, but do we have time?

[karnos]

VOTE: saru

[karnos]

Fire Assassin: you are still near the top of my potential scum list. I'll return my vote to you before seeing a no lynch, so this is just a tentative change.

[karnos]

FA: are you an alt that was in 1800, or just someone who read the game?

[karnos]

vote:Mal

since we have a extension

Why does having an extension make you want to vote a V/LA lurker?

[karnos]

@mod: Surely mal needs to give some sort of estimate as to when he will be back. He can't just say indefinite V/LA and then come back D6 and win the game (exaggeration of course). I mean we could lynch him but again, that seems unfair to force town to lynch someone purely for V/LA'ing 5eva

His V/LA officially ends on the 25th, according to his profile. After that he will be subject to prods and/or replacement.

Does this seem a little convenient to anyone else? V/LA ends right as this day ends? Am I reading into this too much?

If the V/LA was changed after the game deadline changed, that would be suspicious. If Mal set V/LA before the deadline extension it can only be a coincidence.

I don't really like this last minute counter wagon. I still think Saru/Thor are scum. At least one of them, probably Saru.

Mal might be scum too, hard to say given his lurking, but lets not rush and lynch him when he isn't here to defend of claim.

[karnos]

Power-role advice, since it was requested:

Investigate: thor/me/nero
Protect: me/iron/your main townread
Roleblock: thor/saru if not lynched/mal
Kill: mal/thor/saru if not lynched

[karnos]

Actually investigate penguin, I'd like to know if he is actually town with some certainty.

[karnos]

I feel like mal just needs to replace out. He's got that whole 'indefinite V/La' thing going on. We are essentially voting this guy right now due to him being active on site, but not posting on the thread. Do we really gain anything from lynching him (unless he is scum ofc).

We get the same info as any other lynch.

Well, except we won't get a claim, reads, or a defense from him.

Or worse- he comes back, does give a valid claim/defense, and we are scrambling to find a good lynch in the last 10 hours of the day.

I think it's too late for a good push on mal. He could be scum lurking, he could also be town lurking. No need to push it so hard today.

[karnos]

Investigate: pp/lmk/iron/karnos
Protect: thor
Roleblock: pp/lmk/iron/karnos
Kill: pp/lmk/iron/karnos

This is an odd post.

You're scum reading me, karnos, pp, and lmk.

You're town reading, thor, saru.

You're null reading aron, grey, lowell, alpaca, and fire.

Did I get that right?

Guys, I'm pretty sure that nero is scum.

Vigi I changed my mind, please shoot nero. THANKS!

Yeah. Nero's reads are way out of whack with reality. I'm not sure he is scum though. I can sorta see how he got there. Reading you as scum, assuming you are pushing to lynch town, you end up with reads like nero.

I'm hoping we just lynch saru and he flips scum that will clarify a lot of confusion.

[karnos]

Well, except we won't get a claim, reads, or a defense from him.

We will clearly never get reads from him - he is actively choosing to play that way and that is a fact.
There is no defense for what he is doing short of claiming that he is a bad player who should replace out.
I will agree we won't get a claim.

See you are just being silly. Going on V/LA once doesn't prove a player will be V/LA forever.

@Mod - V/LA till Sunday the 23rd

You yourself went V/LA for the last 4 days, which would have been until the end of day 1 if we didn't get a deadline extension. Maybe we should lynch you?

You also came into the game and faced a wagon on the tracer slot that was largely built upon the case that tracer was lurking scum. You called that case weak because tracer eventually replaced out. Shouldn't you be willing to wait and see if mal gets replaced out?

I disagree - it is the perfect day to do that -especially if you think he is town or a PR.

So you are saying it's perfect to push mal and get a last minuted claim if he is a town power role? What side are you on?

[karnos]

I am actively aware of Mal's activity elsewhere.
Mal wagon is fine and dandy - so is Nero.

Shit. I see this is totally correct. I apologize, the mal wagon is good. Didn't realize he was blatantly posting in other games while avoiding this one on V/LA.

Still annoys me that Saru might slip by today, but this seems like the best way to go right now:

VOTE: malpascp

[karnos]

That is L-2 because ironstove unvoted.

[karnos]

VOTE:

Thor

Saru or Thor are my lynch preferences. Since Saru seems willing to vote Thor, this seems like the easier flip.

[karnos]

Karnos case in a nutshell;

A. States that townreads should not be revealed so as to hinder scum (does note a handful of reasonable exceptions - like defending a townread from lynch)
B. Vote moves onto a wagon in an opportunistic manner.
C. Is asked why - because vote looks opportunistic.
D. Defends self by claiming he was sheeping a town read (doesn't clarify if actually believes scum read - though later scum reads slot for unassociated things).
E. Is called on this.
F. Flails.

A-F

added to above for clarity.


Haha. Very funny.

Nice try at being deceptive, Thor. B, C, D occurred first. Then A. As such, there was zero logical reason to include the prior event as a listed exception

because I already did it

. Not the other way around, as you seem to be trying to imply.

Interesting thing though.

This is Thor's entry to the thread:

Greetings all, read the last two pages (or a page and a half, however you care to parse it)

Unvote: AlpacaAlpaca
Vote: Karnos

Notice this is post 356, on page 15 of the thread. So he read the prior two pages of the thread, and ignored everything else as irrelevant apparently.

My vote on tracer (Thor's slot) was 300, first post of page 13 in the thread.

I find it very interesting that Thor arbitrarily decided to read from that point on. Almost seems like he knew he wanted to push a case on me, so he just read back far enough to craft an argument, and nothing more.

I also find it interesting that he calls it an opportunistic wagon, yet he claims to have not read earlier than that point. How does he know it's opportunistic? Maybe there is an AMAZING argument in favor or wagoning tracer on page 11, but Thor just missed it because it came before the point where he started reading?


I'm pretty sure Thor is scum. Saru might also be scum.

[karnos]

Damned site downage combined with moving.

Why isn't Thor lynched yet?

[karnos]

Ok, catch up was easier than I thought.

Thor, I've given cases. You are scum though, not expecting to convince you to vote yourself, as long as the town players read and vote appropriately it's all worthwhile.

[karnos]

Saru:Thor:Nero being main scum reads prior to today.

Due to interactions, I think it's much more likely Thor is scum than Saru at this point. Scum Thor would be perfectly happy to town read Saru, knowing Saru would flip town. Scum Thor would also be happy with killing GreyICE, who was mainly pressuring Saru.

Nero is a bit odd this game. In his "suggested moves" he said to protect Thor. Why? WTF? He had literally no posts mentioning a town read or any read on Thor prior to that. Like the problem is this seems bad from any alignment. If he is town, WTF would he ask for a protect on someone with no basis- and risk of seeing Thor flip as scum due to a wrong read will make him look bad. But if Nero is scum, it creates an association with scum buddy, which might lead to both of them being sunk.

Honestly I'd be willing to lynch any of the three, but Thor makes the most sense to flip right now from my PoV. His play has been hyper-focused on me from his first post in the thread. Does town!Thor tunnel like this? I seriously no idea and no time to read through his other past games, but it doesn't seem very townie from my perspective.

[karnos]

Thor is scum.

He isn't this bad of a player to be town. In other games, town!Thor might have put some pressure on me, but he has never blindly tunneled like this.

This is either scum!Thor or Thor ODed on drugs and lost 50 points of IQ. This isn't the usual town!Thor I have seen before.

[karnos]

Thor is scum.

He isn't this bad of a player to be town. In other games, town!Thor might have put some pressure on me, but he has never blindly tunneled like this.

This is either scum!Thor or Thor ODed on drugs and lost 50 points of IQ. This isn't the usual town!Thor I have seen before.

The whole back-and-forth between you and Thor is getting to be obnoxious. Who is scum outside Thor?

Thor is scum. I don't want to lynch anyone else, because it doesn't make sense to ignore a sure-thing to go for a maybe.

Saru could be scum still, maybe they realized pushing me together was terrible and decided to switch pushes to distance, but I also think there is a fair chance he is actually town, would much prefer to lynch Thor.

Nero might be scum as well, I found his read lists to be terrible earlier in the game, haven't fully caught up so not sure if he is making more sense now or not.

If you are asking me who I want to lynch, it's Thor. If you are asking who I might compromise on a lynch for, I did that crap yesterday and we lynched town, so I'm not going to settle for a crappy lynch today.

[karnos]

VOTE: Thor

[karnos]

I feel like a terrible lurker because I am not contributing much, but I'm not going to relent this time. Lynch Thor or lynch me and then lynch Thor.

This is scum!Thor.

[karnos]

It's interesting he switched from Thor (my #1 scum MVP) to Nero (my second choice for potential scum, almost tied with Saru).

Not sure if it's a case of great town minds thinking alike, or scum trying to take advantage of my reads to push a lynch into a townie instead of a scum buddy.

[karnos]

Did you just claim you aren't town? LOL.

[karnos]

i'm sorry for my absence, cleaning house over the weekend and the impending election is eating up a lot of my time (I'm actually D Trump IRL).

VOTE: Thor

[karnos]

I dunno, need to do a full re-read of the last dozen pages. But my initial thought is his scum pool almost mirrors mine, so either I am WAY OFF, or we are both town.

In the crazy scenario where thor flips town, maybe Bji and Saru are scum, and someone else hiding under the radar. But I greatly prefer the scenario where Thor & nero are scum, because that is what my reads have been telling me.

[karnos]

Penguin, do you have a case for town!Thor?

[karnos]

What is this, writing in haiku form?

[karnos]

Thor pushed a hard lynch
he had no legitimacy there
lets lynch him now, friends

[karnos]

Yeah, but he hasn't spent his entire time on one person, which is my experience with scum!Thor. I could be wrong, but I like him more than you right now.

He did until he was called out on it.

[karnos]

Yeah, but he hasn't spent his entire time on one person, which is my experience with scum!Thor. I could be wrong, but I like him more than you right now.

He did until he was called out on it.

Why did you jump on mal's wagon if Thor was already on it?

Because the Thor wagon wasn't going anywhere, we were near deadline, Thor could have been busing, Thor could have been town... but mal's flip reinforced my opinion of Thor being scum.

[karnos]

Just peeking in to give

intent to hammer

.

I actually find the case on me so offensive that I'm going to refuse to claim.
I am a PR - but since you guys don't even have a case, I want to teach you a lesson about what you're doing.

My prediction is scum bji/Karnos at the very least - along with a bunch of town too dense to notice that there isn't actually a reason to think I'm scum outside of the most vague connective hoo-hah type cases.

Hammer away, slappy.

1- Refuses to claim.

2- Is playing against win condition if town, to teach us a lesson.

3- Calls me scum. Sorry Thor, checked my role PM, you are still wrong.

This is scum. Please hammer him.

[karnos]

Because the Thor wagon wasn't going anywhere, we were near deadline, Thor could have been busing, Thor could have been town... but mal's flip reinforced my opinion of Thor being scum.

You weren't on Thor...you were on Saru - the leading wagon. Thor also hopped on mal when he was the third smallest wagon - why would he do that if he were bussing? He also switched earlier than you.

If anything, your hop onto the wagon looks worse than his.

Why did mal's flip reinforce your scum!read on Thor?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8449770 Thor/Saru were my main picks for scum. They both still are, but Thor has moved up a notch and has a viable wagon while Saru doesn't.

As to why it solidified my scum read of Thor, re-read this page: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=750

Thor was pushing the wagon and convinced me to ignore my hesitations, such as the fact that lynching a lurker would cause us to miss out on a claim & reads.

FWIW, Nero was the one who started the wagon. Nero/Saru team isn't out of the question, but I think it's just as likely that scum!Nero might divert a wagon away from town Saru so we can misslynch Saru later. TBH if we could just lynch Thor, Nero, & Saru I'm fairly confident 2 of the 3 will flip red.

Thor is the lynch for today, it's too late to second guess.

[karnos]

VOTE: Thor665

die scum.

[karnos]

Nero for scum, btw, in case I get night killed.

[karnos]

@Karnos why did you feel we needed to end the day?

are you kidding? been trying to lynch this scum since day one. not going to slowplay it and risk someone getting cold feet.

[karnos]

I'm thinking this might mean Saru & Nero are town. Lowell, what is your excuse for the terrible day 2 no-lynch?

[karnos]

VOTE: MathBlade is scum. Lowell is probably scum #3.

Nero was acting hella scummy, but I don't think scum Nero would actually post an hour before deadline and blatantly not hammer.

[karnos]

VOTE: MathBlade is scum.

Where did this come from? Surely not just OMGUS?

And please, for the love of god, don't say it has something to do with 1800 ...

I had some time this morning, so I read from MathBlade's replace.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1250

If you have time, take a look. It's very telling now that we know Thor's alignment.

Major red flag is how MathBlade chides Lowell's intent to hammer, insisting that he let MathBlade catch up first. Then MathBlade catches up, very slowly. The Lowell/MathBlade interactions first looked to me like scum MathBlade giving his partner an out, an excuse to not hammer. There is the Lowell is town scenario though, in which case I read MathBlade's post as a very defensive push to protect Thor for one more day, before pulling a full 180 based on the tracker flip.

The only thing bothering me is the number of people who failed to lynch Thor day 2 exceeds the number of possible scum. So between Nero/Lowell/Saru/MathBlade there are at least two town, possibly even three. This is why I am thinking Nero might actually be town, and through PoE I think MathBlade & Lowell are more likely scum than Saru.

[karnos]

UNVOTE: mathblade

Interesting. If mod doesn't confirm, obviously this is scum, but no reason to rush things right now...

[karnos]

I'm still pretty sure scum are among the nero:lowell:mathblade:saru pool. Lowell, assuming for the moment you are town, and mathblade is indeed confirmed IC, between nero and saru which one is most obvious scum?

[karnos]

VOTE: Lowell

I know this is a protest vote as it is too late in the day. Call me a crybaby or spoilsport but Lowell is scum IMHO.

Karnos is scum.

Here is my first crumb if anyone cares.

Scum is in Karnos,Lowell,Bji, iron stove in that order.

Do you have a read on penguinpower? Is he obvious town?

You were completely wrong on your Thor read, after realizing that did *any* of your other reads change or are you just assuming it was a fluke?

[karnos]

you use crumbs as scum all the time, I'm not sorry for voting you when you were acting like scum.

But anyway, lets win the game. I don't really see how your reads can be such polar opposite to my reads. Especially given that of the flips since you replaced in, my read on thor was 100% spot on.

[karnos]

Nero was a lot more active when he was town in a previous game. Seems like he isn't doing much. But I still don't see why scum!nero would draw attention to the fact that he wasn't hammering Thor, unless that was just a play to create more WIFOM debates.

[karnos]

MathBlade, I thought I was busing my partner, not town reading him.

In the interest of full disclosure, aronagrundy recruit me last night before he died as he thought I was pretty towny after the Thor flip. I won't immediately reveal the other neighborized players unless they choose to reveal themselves.

[karnos]

7:11AM is what it says. My time zone was set to eastern time but didn't adjust for daylight savings, so it's off by an hour.

@MathBlade, mod said in the original posts that you need to PM any setup related question.

[karnos]

@Karnos when did you get the notification?

Last night. And it wasn't because arona thought he was towny (which is clear in that thread), so not sure why he said that.

It totally was. In posts 5 & 8 he clearly says he is just trying to neighborize town. In post 20 he basically saysd 'who should I do next, karnos?' In 22 you said 'if thor flips scum add karnos'.

Sure, i'll give you that he didn't just say "karnos is obv town so i am adding him", but from the context of the thread he was obviously trying to add the most towny people and the choice to add me came from that line of reasoning.

[karnos]

I mean, what is the alternative narrative? is penguin trying to suggest that aron was recruiting someone he thought was scum, or someone he was unsure of? Why would he even do that?

[karnos]

karnos (3) - MathBlade, Nero Cain, PenguinPower

could it be?

Nero & Penguin scum team?

If town gets reckless and quick-lynches me somehow, please go and lynch Nero tomorrow.

[karnos]

Why couldn't I just be town and wrong?

vote:Karnos

his hammer to end the day and cut off discussion was scum motivated.

Anyone else notice the obvious fail here?

Nero let day 2 end in a no lynch, but apparently he thinks my early hammer on a scum is scum motivated?

[karnos]

Very interesting turn of events.

I keep asking myself, "why is penguin suddenly scum reading me?"

If he is town, it just doesn't make much sense. His reasoning isn't anything new, so he should have been scum reading me all along based on it. Yet, just yesterday he was saying he would tunnel-vote me forever if Thor flipped town, so presumably the scum flip of Thor should make me more towny in his eyes, yet instead it seems to have had the opposite effect.

Now if he is scum, it *still* doesn't make a lot of sense, but I think I am seeing why this is happening. In 1431 I said

"I'm still pretty sure scum are among the nero:lowell:mathblade:saru pool. Lowell, assuming for the moment you are town, and mathblade is indeed confirmed IC, between nero and saru which one is most obvious scum?"

Shortly after that (1474) penguin voted me.

It was really puzzling me, why the turn, but I think I may have figured it out. My comment to Lowell was based on the idea that Lowell, whether scum or town, would never admit to being scum, so either way he was only going to admit to a scenario in which he was town. I wasn't town reading him, I just wanted to phrase my question in a way that he might give a useful response. But maybe Penguin thought I was, and he knew that his partner was among nero:saru pool, which meant we could lynch both, deal with taking one miss lynch, and then possibly lynch him, so he panicked and decided to try to push a wagon on me. It feels like a stretch because it is: I really thought penguin could be town this game, I just see zero town incentive to turn this day into a 1vs1 lynch situation when there were more likely scum to pick from.

Between nero and saru, which one would be penguin's partner?

[karnos]

Lulz. karnos is ignoring the entirety of the neighborhood thread and the Innocent Child claim. Totes scum. This will be good post game.

So scum can easily fool you by hinting at being an IC, without invoking the power? I didn't ignore the role once it was mod confirmed, but I legit scum read MathBlade and I wasn't going to drop the case just because of a hint of a role.

[karnos]

VOTE: PenguinPower & 1 of nero:saru (almost certainly nero)

[karnos]

If you lynch me, scum needs one more miss lynch to win, so penguin would happily help you with that. He might even help you bus his partner.

[karnos]

In any case, as a general FYI, here is some info from the neighbor topic:

9: Fire Assassin suggests adding Nero cain as he is sure he is town
10:aron says he would consider nero if thor flips scum
12: fire assassin says penguin is town because of the aggresive pushing on him
13: fire assdassin says thor is scum because of the tracjker claim, and he says to add penguin
22: this is where penguin says if thor flips scum, add karnos penguin also says he thinks scum resides between saru/lowell
23: aron agrees that 1 of saru/lowell is scum
26: penguin says i am obvtown because of my tunnel on thor
27: aron says nero and bji are likely town from the flip (this was monday at 1pm)
28: penguin says 'well damn' (wed 8am)

This is where I was added to the topic, the rest has been mentioned in thread already.

[karnos]

Looking it over myself, my take-away is that penguin was avoiding mentioning Nero, and he outright called me "obvtown", which really makes his tunnel on me town puzzling from a town perspective.

I think we got this. Even if somehow town royally screws up and lynches me, just lynch nero & penguin after my flip. GG!

[karnos]

I dunno what you mean?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1425

I unvoted, I shared my scum reads, and then you mysteriously started pushing for my lynch even though you called me 'obv town' on Monday.

What part of that made you change your read on me, the unvote? the scum read on nero?

[karnos]

I'm sorry, why does aron think nero is conf!town after thor flipped scum? Nero was fighting a thor lynch the entire game....

Honestly I have no idea. He didn't go into detail in the topic. Now, to be fair he didn't say "conf town", he just said nero (and bji) are "likely" town due to the thor flip.

Karnos, why are you scum reading nero again? You were town reading him earlier when the day started, and you were also scum reading him prior to nightfall. What's going on?

It was a very slight town read, based purely on the theory of "why would scum stick their neck out like that". Since then, penguin has basically admitted to being scum with his weird unexplained flip, and based on his reads I am thinking it can only be because of nero. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe penguin was planning to bus lowell or saru and nero really is town, but then I am just left scratching my head as to why on earth would penguin go on attack mode instead of letting a lynch happen on one of saru/nero/lowell.

[karnos]

Okay, re-read nero's iso. Feeling real good about the penguin:nero scumteam.

[karnos]

We are going around in circles. I agree with bji that we need some feedback from lowell & saru.

[karnos]

I'm confident penguin is scum, but I'll unvote to ensure mathblade can post further.

UNVOTE: penguin

[karnos]

Maybe a negative utility PR?

[karnos]

My guess would be some flavor of enabler... maybe. I dunno.

Iron, I think it makes sense to come out, but I don't really care. I just think it might be beneficial for town to be united, I think this back and forth between you and MathBlade is not terrible constructive.

I'd prefer to lynch penguin, but I'm fine with nero as well.

[karnos]

Why do you think Karnos couldn't have known Mal was town?

This is such a "water is wet" statement I can't believe you are pushing it.

That statement could literally be true of everyone in the game, except MathBlade the innocent child.

I think we got this wrapped up. Nero is defending himself and Penguin as expected, they are probably the last two scum. If Nero is town, I'm sorry he has been duped so badly but I think he is better than that.

VOTE: Nero Cain

[karnos]

Here comes karnos setting up the two mislynches needed for a scum win! Great job, karnos!

How on earth would I be setting up 2 miss-lynches? If we lynch you and you come back town, do you think anyone is going to be listening to me tomorrow?

[karnos]

Town

MathBlade

ironstove
bji

Saru
Lowell

Nero Cain

PenguinPower

Scum

[karnos]

Town

MathBlade

ironstove
bji

Saru
Lowell

Nero Cain

PenguinPower

Scum

GAH! I'm the scummiest and you took your vote off me! I don't get you.

You are the scummiest from my PoV because your attacks on me could only be scum motivated (I KNOW I am town, others can only speculate). However, I am also pretty sure Nero is scum. If the towny players would rather lynch Nero first, I'm fine with that.

If it makes you happy, I'll do this:

Intent to hammer Nero Cain

VOTE: PenguinPower

Now my vote is on the scummiest, but it's clear that I also wouldn't mind a Nero lynch.

[karnos]

@Penguin: Are you town reading Nero for any reason

other

than just to disagree with those who are scum reading you?

Tinfoily speculation: maybe Nero isn't actually scum, while Penguin is. Penguin thinks that by defending Nero hard, we will lynch Nero tomorrow after Penguin flips red today, and give Penguin's actual partner an extra chance to win.

[karnos]

I agree. Now would you please be willing to vote Nero so we can progress the game?

That would involve me believing that karnos is town. That's hard for me to do right now.

And this is all because I voted an IC, before the IC was mod confirmed?

[karnos]

Calm down iron.

[karnos]

VOTE: karnos

Breaking my heart.

Ugh...I'm done. I've made my points...your vote and logic are bad. Like, bad bad.

I agree that one of me and karnos is scum. Karnos is scum, and flipping him will give us one more mislynch to find the remaining Lynch me, and then you will be lynching karnos and have no buffer to find the remaining.

The rest of the town can decide now. I've made my case.

Mostly this. I don't see how town penguin, who had other scum reads, would push for my lynch like this with the "1v1 me bro!" type of argument.

And the fact that it seemed to come out of left field, with no triggering reason for the sudden change in reading.

[karnos]

I scum read MathBlade before we got a mod confirmation of the IC role. That is why penguin thinks I'm scum.

I don't buy it.

[karnos]

Karnos = scum based on his unwillingness to lynch nero, despite stating nero is a scum read + his sudden flipping LOL. Pretty ridiculous. He's had pretty clean play up till the penguin flip. Interesting.

I am fine lynching Nero, but WTF does that actually change?

Nero flips scum, that isn't going to make Penguin look any more town, I'm still going to want to lynch Penguin tomorrow, and so... nothing really changes. If by some freak Penguin is actually town, it sucks, but I want him lynched either way so it's not like lynching Nero today would save us from needing to lynch Penguin.

[karnos]

You really think that both of the wagons are on scum? That's just dumb.

Question is, if one wagon is on scum and the other is on town, wouldn't a scum jump wagons to make sure the town player gets lynched?

Or do you also think both scum are voting on the town wagon?

[karnos]

Damnit, sometimes I hate this game. Thinking about my last comment, and looking at the wagons...

PenguinPower (4) - Saru, Lowell, karnos, Nero Cain (L-1!)
Nero Cain (3) - ironstove, bji, PenguinPower (L-2!)

Other than me, PP wagon is all of my main scumy reads, while the Nero wagon is the most towny players in the game besides confirmed MathBlade.

UNVOTE:

I'm on board with a Nero lynch over penguin.

[karnos]

Nero+Saru is a possible team on paper.

Stove let's assume Nero flips town who is the scum team?

Why are you limiting your request to stove?

If nero flips town, penguin is absolutely scum.

[karnos]

Saru and Nero could be scum, but it means Saru & Thor pushed a wagon on me which seems dangerous for scum to try.

Lowell could pretty much be scum with anyone, he has been such a lurker he hasn't really been offering any strong reads, but just because he is a lurker doesn't mean he is scum.

Dammit. I re-read lowell's iso. While I'm not saying he has moved down to my preferred lynch spot, I'd really like it if some others could read through his iso and give opinions.

Specifically, he seemed to be doing everything he could to derail the Thor wagon without outright calling Thor a strong town read.

If Lowell is scum, penguin is Town. Lowell could be scum with Nero or *gasp* Iron, but I think Nero is much more likely. I don't see how Saru could be his partner as he has been repeatedly suggesting to move lynches to Saru.

[karnos]

If it happens then I'll give you a serious answer, because Nero flipping town goes against my entire understanding of the game and anything I say at this point would be something I pulled out of my ass. But seriously, if he flips town I will have a long look through the game.

Lowell & Nero, how do you feel about that possible team?

[karnos]

The Lowell case. I think I am a bit bias, since a lot of this is based on voting during my Thor vs Karnos debate, so I'd really like some other eyes to look at these quotes in particular and see if you agree.

thor looks better than karnos in this exchange, but gun to my head I think it's town v town.

Scum knowing I'll flip town, setting things up so scum-buddy Thor isn't automatically lynched after his wagon on me results in a town flip.

Wait, so you think Karnos is town?

Recent exchanges notwithstanding, yes, I do.

Of course he knows I am town if he is scum. But he has to phrase it as such "Recent exchanges notwithstanding" so he can excuse himself for hammering, if my wagon reaches that point.

Lmk and knighty are attacking each other for doing the exact same thing. My work here is done.

Also there's some major derailing going on from aron. 381 is the post that catches your eye several pages later? Why? It's... fine, I guess? But it causes you to change the vote you just made? (presumably also after having seen epic post 381)

There's enough people at various times trying to passive-aggressively derail this karnos wagon that it's probably right. At least some of them must be protecting a buddy.

VOTE: karnos

Even though he was previously pushing the idea of it being TvT, now he is voting me. Of course he gives reasoning, so it doesn't look *that* bad.

I feel like we have a bird in hand with knighty or lmk. So I'm not sure I see the appeal of saru or thor wagons. saru in particular I mostly just see as a lurker.

Knighty and lmk were both town slots.

VOTE: saru


I don't know how we got here, but fine. There's about three or four others I'd rather lynch but I'm not nolynching to protect a null lurker read.

An alternative to lynching Thor appears, Lowell votes.

VOTE: saru

I don't have a strong case-based reason here, but I do have a strong feeling that the way that day ended was no accident. I recall putting saru to L-1 to avoid a no lynch, then coming back to find some random rube dead.

Just a reminder that saru is still scum. Also saru's latest interaction with aron looks like a distancing ploy. Still, lmk first.

Saru is still scum.

I'll also hammer if scum-saru gets cold feet. FTR I still don't think Thor is scum though, would have been better to get saru or lmk today.

I'll also hammer if scum-saru gets cold feet. FTR I still don't think Thor is scum though, would have been better to get saru or lmk today.

...Why the hell would you hammer a townread after announcement of a replace in?

If anything you would want to give a replacement time to interact with people before nightfall and a chance to see if the read on your replacement lines up.

That's literally the reason I'm waiting, to give you time to weigh in. I'm saying I'll hammer to avoid NL. This is.... obvious. If it's not Thor it's you, so I'll leave it to you to decide where my vote should go.

This & above, Lowell is going to hammer Thor!

I'm out for the next few hours or so. I'll humor math and not LOLHAMMER, even though it's pretty much my favorite thing and it feels like math is stalling since there's no other lynch that's going to happen today. I'll check in before deadline if, surprise, surprise, math comes back after reading and gets cold feet.

Promise unfulfilled. While I was scum reading MathBlade for missing the Thor hammer, the same reasoning could apply to Lowell (or even Nero...). Scummy.

I'm still pretty sure scum are among the nero:lowell:mathblade:saru pool. Lowell, assuming for the moment you are town, and mathblade is indeed confirmed IC, between nero and saru which one is most obvious scum?

My gut answer here is saru. But of course you knew I'd say that since I've been after saru for days and haven't had much to say about nero. So the analytical side of me is saying that this is an intentionally loaded quesiton and the actual answer is nero. Or, perhaps, karnos.

He has been pretty consistent about wanting Saru lynched, even after Thor flipped scum. This time he suggests Nero as an alternative, or me. Finally willing to bus Nero? Or could his partner be someone else?

The more I look at this post the more I think karnos is setting me up to get punked on a fake choice. If we're talking karnos and nero I'd much prefer karnos. And I'd also prefer karnos not trying to butter me up with this shit. I'm also now pretty sure saru is town after all.

Now Saru is town.

I'm still pretty sure scum are among the nero:lowell:mathblade:saru pool. Lowell, assuming for the moment you are town, and mathblade is indeed confirmed IC, between nero and saru which one is most obvious scum?

Also I don't understand those voting nero if you buy that the aron kill was intentional. Either karnos or penguin or both are scum. If that's true, worst situation we lynch both and one is town and we'll be down to one scum at lylo. Why throw that off by lynching nero first? Even if you think he's scum?

This is just so bad to me. I think this is scum jumping on MathBlade's idea and push it because they know the conclusion is wrong. Maybe the Aron kill was just intended to be a low information kill, or maybe scum suspected he was a PR due to posting style, it doesn't mean it had to be penguin (and I know it wasn't me).

[karnos]

Screwed up the quote below. Fixed:

The more I look at this post the more I think karnos is setting me up to get punked on a fake choice. If we're talking karnos and nero I'd much prefer karnos. And I'd also prefer karnos not trying to butter me up with this shit. I'm also now pretty sure saru is town after all.

I'm still pretty sure scum are among the nero:lowell:mathblade:saru pool. Lowell, assuming for the moment you are town, and mathblade is indeed confirmed IC, between nero and saru which one is most obvious scum?

Now Saru is town.

Also I don't understand those voting nero if you buy that the aron kill was intentional. Either karnos or penguin or both are scum. If that's true, worst situation we lynch both and one is town and we'll be down to one scum at lylo. Why throw that off by lynching nero first? Even if you think he's scum?

This is just so bad to me. I think this is scum jumping on MathBlade's idea and push it because they know the conclusion is wrong. Maybe the Aron kill was just intended to be a low information kill, or maybe scum suspected he was a PR due to posting style, it doesn't mean it had to be penguin (and I know it wasn't me).

[karnos]

If Lowell is scum, Saru is town. There is no way Lowell would put in the effort to get Saru lynched over Thor if Saru was also a scum partner.

PenguinPower (3) - Saru, Lowell, Nero Cain (L-2!)

So this wagon is either 2 scum + Town!Saru, or... the town!Nero scenario might be true. I still think Nero is probably scum, but this has been a fun exercise and I think I might prefer a Lowell lynch today if others agree.

[karnos]

Karnos keeps saying he thinks nero is scum, but keeps driving the wagon off nero.

We know there are two scum. Nero & Penguin could be the two, or it could be Lowell & Nero. Or some other combination.

I'm okay with a Nero lynch, the wagon looks like legit town other than penguin, who could be busing or town. But we do have plenty of time until deadline, and we need to talk about the game unless you are 100% sure you have the last 2 scum nailed.

Are you Lowell's partner?

[karnos]

More seriously, Iron:

Are too lazy to read it at this point, or did you read my Lowell case and you think he is town despite it?

[karnos]

Votecount 1.20

AlpacaAlpaca

(1) - malpascp

Thor665

(1) - ironstove

karnos

(1) - Thor665

Fire Assassin

(6) - LmkGuy, PenguinPower, aronagrundy, Saru, Lowell, karnos

(L-1!)

LmkGuy

(1) - AlpacaAlpaca

Saru

(1) - GreyICE

ironstove

(1) - Nero Cain

Not Voting

(1) - Fire Assassin

With

13

players eligible to vote, it’s

7

to lynch!

Day 1 will end in

(expired on 2016-10-24 15:25:42).

Mod Notes:

malpascp is V/LA until the 25th of October.
aronagrundy is V/LA until the 23rd of October.
Thor665 is V/LA until the 23rd of October.

So. If Lowell is scum, and Nero is his scum partner, they did have an opportunity to hammer FA, a claimed town PR. Of course Nero would have gotten heat for it, but he even fake hammered and then tried to convince FA to switch to iron. That doesn't mean Nero is town, it just means he is scum with self control and discipline to avoid quick-hammering a tempting target, but it's notable nonetheless.

Thor was on V/LA so his absence on the wagon isn't really notable at all.

If you take the stance that scum would be on the wagon, that would point to a penguin/lowell scum team, penguin/saru, or the nearly impossible saru/lowell team. None of which jumps out as a likely pairing to me.

vote: Fire Assassin

Maybe Nero was just trying to act like he was giving enough time for intent so he could hammer FA later, but didn't get the chance when the wagon disolved and shifted to Saru.

[karnos]

More seriously, Iron:

Are too lazy to read it at this point, or did you read my Lowell case and you think he is town despite it?

Did you read my 1558 to 1561 ????

Skimmed them. After a re-read, okay you still think Saru is scum. Can't say I view him as obv town, mostly I just don't think scum!Saru and scum!Thor would blatantly push a wagon on me like they did. I guess Saru is the next iso to re-read.

[karnos]

like PP going "oh Nero is town" and then suddenly reading Karnos as town for F all reason is p silly and reeks of buddy play.

Also I don't understand those voting nero if you buy that the aron kill was intentional. Either karnos or penguin or both are scum. If that's true, worst situation we lynch both and one is town and we'll be down to one scum at lylo. Why throw that off by lynching nero first? Even if you think he's scum?

Seems that you and Lowell are of the same mind. Scum buddies?

[karnos]

I find it funny that karnos was voting for penguin when his top scum read, nero was also on the wagon lol. Very amusing.

does the term "busing" mean anything to you?

[karnos]

That aron would recruit both scum into the PT and even if he did, why them having day chat when they've already had day chat for pretty much the whole game should implicate that they're both scum. I'm not really seeing a reason behind that.

I think ita a perfectly sound explanation for why PP would want Karnos to be added.

Interesting theory. If PP and I were both scum, we could say whatever we wanted to say about what was said in the topic and no living player could argue it. In that case, why would penguin say that he asked for me to be added? Why would I collaborate his story?

Penguin might be scum, my recent case on Lowell isn't 100% conclusive, but obviously I know I am not scum and I think even from an outsider perspective the idea should look insane.

[karnos]

It's Monday! The weekend is over.

[karnos]

Lowell:Nero:Penguin
Honorable mention: Saru

It hurts my head to keep trying to figure out which one is more scummy.

MathBlade if you want to hammer penguin I'll re-apply my vote, he isn't my first choice anymore but the information from the flip will be invaluable either way.

[karnos]

VOTE: nero cain

[karnos]

karnos or penguin, please. at least one of the scum has to be in here. i don't see any way karnos and penguin aren't voting each other.

My thinking is it's Lowell & Penguin. But I don't agree with the "it's gotta be penguin or karnos" argument, I think that is poor logic.

I'm actually a little bit relieved that ironstove was killed, as I had a worrying suspicion that I had been wrong about him all game after Nero flipped.

Consider my vote on lowell, but I don't want to rush things today.

[karnos]

^^^ there's zero chance at least one of you isn't scum, and setting up a LYLO mislynch on lowell is pretty much the quintessential scum move, so kudos on your gumption.

why not (virtually) vote penguin if you think he's scum? esp if it's clear that will be an easier majority to reach? this feels like a diversion.

4 to lynch, 6 alive, 2 scum.

MathBlade
karnos
PenguinPower
Lowell
Saru
bji

Fuck, I think Lowell has to be scum. I haven't read the last few pages except the above posts, but if you assume penguin & lowell aren't scum partners, then penguin has be partner with saru or bji if he is scum. Just to simplify my thinking, I'm going to assume bji is town. He isn't 100% confirmed town in my mind, but he is the townies player outside of mathblade & myself IMO.

So it's either penguin/saru, and penguin is busing saru, it's lowell/penguin, and lowell is busing penguin, or it's lowell/saru and nobody is busing.

But... penguin KNOWS lowell was my favored person to lynch, i made that much clear in the neighborhood. So I don't see why penguin/saru team penguin would push to bus saru, he should know i would go for a lowell lynch for easy misslynch win, so why would scum penguin be busing in this situation.

Meh. Waiting until I have time to read all the last few pages.

[karnos]

karnos or penguin, please. at least one of the scum has to be in here. i don't see any way karnos and penguin aren't voting each other.

Why? What is your logic here? Is it the aron kill?

[karnos]

and @karnos, yes, the aron kill. at the time there wasn't an IC claim so aron could easily have been the last verifaibly pro-town player. so scum would want him dead, even at the risk of looking suspicious for it (since, clearly, both you and penguin have been able to survive just fine since the kill anyway). beyond that, at this point I just don't see lurkerteam of bj/saru as viable. so at least one of you is scum anyway.

So...

You either haven't been paying attention, or you are lying- because it's already been well established that the Aron kill was submitted before I gained access to the neighborhood thread. So if that is your criteria for determining who is scum, you should just be saying penguin is scum.

Pretty lowell is scum.

[karnos]

edit: Pretty sure* lowell is scum.

[karnos]

I'm good with lowell. Only question in my mind is whether it's lowell/saru or lowell/penguin.

Saru, primary problem with your play is you seemed to be very active early on pushing me, then after you came to your senses and moved off my wagon you didn't really do anything else the rest of the game.

Penguin's main suspect comes from his hard push to defend Thor, but it can be somewhat mitigated by his push to protect Nero. While there has been plenty of play from his slot that makes me think he rolled scum, he is indeed actually playing the game, not just lurking it out like Saru.

[karnos]

VOTE: Lowell

Notice how fast he jumps on voting Lowell when Math wants Lowell gone?

It doesn't really mean anything. Scum or Town penguin would act the same way in this case, so it doesn't tell us anything new.

[karnos]

VOTE: Lowell

Just need to move the game forward. Between Saru/Lowell/Penguin, I feel most strongly that Lowell is scum.

If Bji/Saru is actually the scum team (I hope not) they can quick-lynch now and win.

[karnos]

I think it's safe to say the scum team isn't bji/saru at least!

[karnos]

I'm confident that between lowell and penguin, there is AT LEAST one scum.

[karnos]

I'm confident that between lowell and penguin, there is AT LEAST one scum.

Yeah but, you have to be 100% sure that lowell is scum to not risk the whole game with that vote on him. Saying there is "AT LEAST" one scum in Lowell/Penguin while voting Lowell is basically saying that you're not certain that Lowell is scum, but that you're OK with enabling a quickhammer if he's not. That is anti-town.

Furthermore, Math already expressed an interest in lynching Lowell so the correct town approach would be to agree with Math that Lowell is likely scum but wait for Math to give the go-ahead for the lynch. Having the IC as a hammer is a very powerful tool against quickhammer losses (and quickhammering is how scum wins 90% of the time), so taking the hammer away from Math was also very anti-town.

You don't understand. Penguin is already voting Lowell. If lowell is town and penguin is scum, there is only one other scum who could vote for Lowell, which isn't enough for a quick lynch.

MathBlade is confirmed town. Literally the only way Lowell could get quick lynched is if you and Saru are the scum team.

Since I can't realy see you getting lynched anyway, everyone town reads you, it's not really much of a gamble to risk things an you not being scum.

[karnos]

Having the IC as a hammer is a very powerful tool against quickhammer losses (and quickhammering is how scum wins 90% of the time), so taking the hammer away from Math was also very anti-town.

And I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Hammer is the last vote that leads to a lynch. I put Lowell at L-2, I didn't hammer. Math can still hammer.

[karnos]

Yes, that was my point. If you're town, you couldn't know that myself and Saru are not the team, so you allowed a quickhammer possibility.

Obviously, if I knew 100% who the scum was, the game would be over. Well at least from my PoV it would be, but it would still be up to the rest of town to believe me or not. Since that isn't true, NOTHING is a sure thing. Yes, I took a small risk. Ultimately we are going to lynch someone and if we lynch wrong scum wins, that is a much bigger risk. If I am wrong about you, of all people, the game is over regardless - it's just a matter of time. Frankly I'd rather lose now than drag it out if that is the case.

And actually, even if I'm wrong about you, I have to both be wrong about you AND Saru has to be your partner. Really, it's a huge corner case that I am willing to bet the game on, because the game is not going to end until some much more serious risks are taken.

Math can still hammer, but Math doesn't

hold

the hammer, meaning, that Math is no longer in full control. You gave away our IC's full control. I do not understand why.

Also, you should still be suspicious of me and Saru but you are not. Didn't the sequence of postings by myself and him look like maybe feeling each other out to see if we're online at the same time? Do you think I actually cared about the answer to my question in post 2094? I did not. I was just trying to post around the same time as Saru to see if you'd get nervous and unvote Lowell. But you did not. I wanted to try to time my postings closer to Saru's but I could only get within 15 minutes or so because people kept interrupting me at work.

Your lack of caution is really bugging me.

He essentially is still in control. You know, votes are not immutable. I can switch to another player if MathBlade asks (unless I think he is making a completely insane call, i.e. lynching me).

For that matter, even if MathBlade voted first (not sure how that would work when he wants to hammer), that doesn't inherently put him in control, town or scum players can still vote outside of his vote if they so choose.

My lack of caution is also trying to move the game forward. Lurking and waiting for someone else to make the first move would be easy, but it doesn't really help sort. I'm voting my strongest scum read, aware of the (minuscule, IMO) risk that I could be allowing the real scum team to quick-hammer if I am totally wrong.

Alternative being what, we just wait until MathBlade makes a call? It sounds like it's just going to be a coin flip between who he thinks is likely scum, unless he gets some more information to make reads from. I am providing that.

[karnos]

Messed up quotes. Obviously that second quote is bji, not myself.

[karnos]

And pronouns, I am fail.

[karnos]

UNVOTE:

[karnos]

If Lowell is scum, Saru is town. There is no way Lowell would put in the effort to get Saru lynched over Thor if Saru was also a scum partner.

PenguinPower (3) - Saru, Lowell, Nero Cain (L-2!)

So this wagon is either 2 scum + Town!Saru, or... the town!Nero scenario might be true. I still think Nero is probably scum, but this has been a fun exercise and I think I might prefer a Lowell lynch today if others agree.

Just a reminder of an old point of mine. If we do lynch Lowell, and he comes up scum, that makes Saru town in my eyes. Which means it is Lowell & PP.

[karnos]

What are you referring to when you say Lowell put in the effort to get Saru lynched?

It's all right here.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8532317

This was from before Nero flip, so I was still thinking Nero was probably scum, but the Thor associations still apply.

[karnos]

Yeah. I'm not seeing it. If it's Saru/Lowell/Thor and Saru and Thor were up on the chopping block, and we know that Thor was a PR, then why wouldn't scum!Lowell push for Saru?

Because Nero was another viable wagon, but Lowell stuck to voting Saru.

[karnos]

It's up to bji, pretty much. I think penguin is the scum, but town needs to be 100% united for this lynch so we'll see how bji views the game.

[karnos]

Penguin has been playing the long con, waiting for this one game to play against his self-imposed meta.

Half serious here. I don't think meta arguments mean much when they are brought up by the person who they personally benefit.

[karnos]

But I'm truly on the fence. It could be Saru, he was acting hella scummy on day 1.

Question is what is more likely: penguin defending his partner, or Saru pushing my wagon with his partner.

[karnos]

100% confident Saru is scum now.

I'm done, and quite honestly nothing I say will make a difference at this point. karnos and bji can decide what to do.

Saru is blacklisted for me. Totally an not-fun game when this guy posts.

VOTE: Saru

I don't get this.

I mean, usually you blacklist someone for playing in a scummy way as town. If Saru is playing in scummy way while he is actually scum, whats wrong with that?

It sounds almost like a slip that you know he is town...

[karnos]

Do you have an explanation for Saru's behavior post Thor's flip that fits this narrative?

I don't know.

It can go either way. From Thor's PoV, white knighting town Saru is advantageous, as is white knighting scum-partner Saru, so I just don't know.

[karnos]

I re-read most of Saru's iso. not going to do a line by line wall post response, I just don't have the energy for that.

Ultimately, my conclusion: I don't know. Saru's snap change against Thor reeks of scum realizing the ship is sinking and it's time to bus a partner. But then he has a lot of strong interactions against Lowell before the Lowell lynch is the only obvious choice. I also see a few posts that I don't see typical scum doing, like an early post defending Nero's weird initial reads list.

OTOH, I have Penguins snap change in reads of me, from town to scum, and then apparently back again after he couldn't get traction on lynching me. Penguin had virtually the same post defending Nero's reads list. Penguin voted Saru over Thor when both had wagons.

After reading through Saru & Penguin, while my Saru read is still pretty foggy, I'm more confident in a Scum!Penguin. Maybe a 60/40 lean. I always worry of bias, but in this case both have tried to get me lynched this game so hopefully the bias is cancelled out.

This particular series of posts is what pushed penguin into being my choice for scum, rather than just a coin flip:

1269
This doesn't make sense if you were so strongly scumreading Thor. Why would he be able to convince you of anything (not too mention it didn't really look like he was pushing the wagon that hard)? You also didn't answer why scum!Thor would have potentially bussed scum!malp when he was one of the smallest wagons at the point he hopped on.

You're breaking my heart, karnos.

1289
Dude. Chill out. 14 hours left and Thor already said he wouldn't claim (unless you actually expressed some effort). I think we can give it a bit more time. Still, you're lynching a soft PR claim (same as FA btw).

1320
Can we please hop on the bji wagon now?

1324
Well, I'm certainly not lynching Thor. Strongest toweread claims PR...yeah. This bji wagon is awesome though. More people should join.

1338
Damn it, Thor. You always fool me.

VOTE: Thor

1474
VOTE: karnos

Breaking my heart.

It's just so much resistance to a Thor lynch, including hard pushes to switch to the bji wagon, followed by a switch to voting me... because I hammered scum!Thor? I doesn't make a whole lot of sense from town.

Penguin: what happened to wanting to lynch bji? When did your read of him change?

[karnos]

VOTE: PenguinPower

Please be scum. Please be scum. Please be scum.

[karnos]

Well played bji!

Kicking myself because when I saw penguin suggest a no lynch, I was thinking it probably was the right move, but then I came back to the thread hours later and the game was just one vote away from ending... I took the impatient route and just ended the game.

I still can't believe that town saru and town nero let Thor escape with a no lynch. Come on! Even if you think he is town, he is obvious lynchbait the rest of the game, you don't just give scum a free night kill, you go ahead and reluctantly vote and hammer! Blah.

[karnos]

Thanks for running the game, Foxbird!

[karnos]

Can someone help me out here:

- What is the difference between bussing and distancing? Have I been misusing the term bussing? I use it whenever a scum works against another scum in game thread to any significant degree, especially and including voting, and usually requiring consistent, not just transient, pressure

- What is White Knighting? Is it when someone champions someone else's cause? Most likely when a town player champions a scum unwittingly?

- What is pocketing?

- What is "snowing", as in: "Looks like maybe you snowed Iron?"

IMO, which is probably wrong:

Distancing: disagreeing with a scum buddy, maybe even voting them, calling them scummy or bad, but not wholeheartedly pushing for their lynch in a strong way.

Busing: literally comes from throwing someone under the bus. Pushing a strong wagon to lynch a buddy, or at least appearing to do so.

White Knighting: Scum picking a town to defend, thanks to knowing who is town, and looking good when that defended town gets lynched and indeed flips town.

Pocketing: Reading someone as town in the hopes that helps them read you as town, can be done by scum or town.

Snowing: white frozen water that falls from the sky during some cold days. Occasionally gets me out of going to work.

[karnos]

To Thor & Nero:

So scum who claim tracker always get a free ride in your games?

I've won as scum claiming a cop-ish role at L-1, and I've won as town lynching a claimed cop (who actually flipped cop) because it was the correct play, and at least by going through with the lynch we gained a lot of useful information (admittedly I was night-killed and the town won in my absence, but that is still a win). In that scum game, town has time to re-form a wagon and lybch someone else- if they resorted to a no-lynch it would have been an even easier scum win.

I'd bet overall you would do a lot better lynching last minute claimers, at least until the meta adjusts.

[karnos]

Do you operate under a different scheme than that and want to debate pros/cons of a given method?

Yes, and no. I guess I'm okay with the disagreement, it's just as likely that your current play style may help me in my next game, so I guess I shouldn't try too hard to change it.