Mini 1860 - Game Over!

[TwoFace]

Spoiler: Quotes

Note that I'm quoting this as a new link so I just copied and paste it. Quotes are being randomized.

Hmm. I didn't have it as a scum read at all really against Lil Uzi. Looked inconsequential, but I didn't like Rask's shut down followed by calling the game 'newbie' as an aside. It seems Rask is trying to avoid conversation here, and regardless if the question was about an older post (this game hasn't even been active long enough for that time lapse excuse), what exactly was wrong with the question to shut it down and claim 'this is so newbie' after? Rask said it was a joke, and then called it ridiculous for others to not take it that way.

I find all that to be far too defensive for little reason. Aside from defensive, it has not-so-subtle barbs littering the whole post sequence. Elitism/ego at work, or scum shutting down anything before it starts? If Rask is such a light hearted player who jokes oh so much, then why am I reading it differently than supposedly intended? Maybe the humor is forced? Otherwise, it may just be bad.

Your thoughts Rask?

Accurate.

Why am I scummy? @whoeversaidthat

You sound awkward and come off pretty self-conscious, in particular you play it cool in your reaction and pretend like you aren't nervous when it feels like the complete opposite.

You have any thoughts on the game so far?

My thoughts on the game are being unrealistic. Everybody seems normal to me although I find Gear, 2F and JarJar sketchy. Oh yeah post 154 is not a good response but what I agree with.

Why am I scummy? @whoeversaidthat

If you read someone saying you were scummy, how do you not know who said it?

What did you hope to accomplish with that question?

It looks like forced to me. I mean it's not like it's been 20 pages, it's been 6. He could have asked directly, but instead it looked like he was trying to avoid direct confrontation with someone

It's not. Look, I woke up at that time, trying to read the unread posts. Just finished it and too lazy to where I read that. But see, I've quoted it. Is there still a problem with that? And if I'm avoiding confrontation with someone, then I shouldn't be playing mafia after all.

I've played with Keyen before, I was scum, and had a front row seat to him OMGUSing everyone who suspected him (among other things, but that's what's relevant here). I saw that from him here, and it's good enough for me for now. Now, I am voting someone new.

But he hasn't omgused everyone voting him.

You expecting me to do that?

Yyyyyyyyyyyy

The red letters in your role pm.

No. You looked at your role pm.

VOTE: Gear

Do you think I'm scum?

Yes. Maybe.

Non sense. Do you expect me to say your town when you've actually did is to act, not scummy, but not that townish?

I think Keyen is town. He seems pretty genuine right now. I also concur with JJD in that Gear's reasoning was pretty garbage, but I don't think garbage reasoning is a scum-tell.

I think you're scum because I read you as like my scum partner on that newbie game.

I actually think keyen could be scum here

agree

Why?

.
Keyen - why so concerned about whether or not we're in RVS?

So I know if I'll post another shit posts.

All in All here's my reads:

Town:
Lannister

NullTown or just unsure reads:
All that isn't mentioned.

Leaning Town:
Gamma
Vijarada
Ssbm

NullScum:
Dave
TwoFace
Rasko

Leaning Scum:
Gear
JarJar

Why waste time making half ass reads list? At least take the time to explain them or something

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Please note that in 151, can is supposed to be can't

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@Gamma Emerald: it's an obvious example of how meta can be used by anyone to twist whatever they want. Yes, this is minor and not AI, but he literally has kept links to his 'meta' to show everyone how 'I always do this' is his thing. He clearly gets questioned on it in other games or who would save that? It just shows how true my statement on meta is IMO. It's an easy excuse for people to manipulate whatever they'd like in their favor. We are supposed to ignore Gerryoat's statement according to him due to his many times of 'always doing this' as if doing it before means it excuses repeating it in an entirely different game.

@Lil Uzi: what makes them impossible to read? Mafia isn't a science anyways. It's a psychological game with lots of manipulation. You really think those great players you mention can't/don't manipulate their meta? Look at GerryOats doing it. Regardless, while some players are harder to read than others, using a bad tool to attempt it isn't really a good thing IMO.

Aside from that little rant, can someone explain the keyan wagon with any clarity besides 'this looks contrived' or 'self-consciousness' as if it is anything other than your feels? That wagon got loaded fast without much of anything worth mentioning. I see a lot of 'I feel like this, I feel like that' without evidence to back up those feelings.

I also see a lot of 'your post isn't worthy, my post is!' Raskolnikov for instance making Lil Uzi apologize. Why are you backing down Lil Uzi? What exactly is wrong with you posting your running thoughts as you catch up? More posts only help garner reads. Anyone trying to shut you down without reason should be suspect.

What I meant by good group is that a solid 1/4th of this site would be impossible to read without meta in my opinion. An example of this would be a player by the name of Naomi-Tan. If you ever get a chance to play with her you will know what I mean. I can't really say anything more since it's sadly still ongoing.

I wasn't backing down. Rask doesn't strike me as having an imitating personality but I could be wrong.

I caught up and still have null reads on pretty much everyone...

That's okay for now, do you at least have any thoughts on some of the arguments the have transpired and hot takes so far? Sharing would really help me feel better about your alignment.

I also see a lot of 'your post isn't worthy, my post is!' Raskolnikov for instance making Lil Uzi apologize. Why are you backing down Lil Uzi? What exactly is wrong with you posting your running thoughts as you catch up? More posts only help garner reads. Anyone trying to shut you down without reason should be suspect.

My bad, I do come off condescending a lot and I have to work on that. Wasn't intending to shut down lil or deny him a voice or something like that lol.

Man this feels like a newbie game lol.

How so? Explain your feels

Just the discussion on theory and basics like when to use meta being as much of a focus as it is. Was a throwaway comment not a super vital gamebreaking observation

Your fine Rask

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Spoiler: Quotes

Note that I'm quoting this as a new link so I just copied and paste it. Quotes are being randomized.

Hmm. I didn't have it as a scum read at all really against Lil Uzi. Looked inconsequential, but I didn't like Rask's shut down followed by calling the game 'newbie' as an aside. It seems Rask is trying to avoid conversation here, and regardless if the question was about an older post (this game hasn't even been active long enough for that time lapse excuse), what exactly was wrong with the question to shut it down and claim 'this is so newbie' after? Rask said it was a joke, and then called it ridiculous for others to not take it that way.

I find all that to be far too defensive for little reason. Aside from defensive, it has not-so-subtle barbs littering the whole post sequence. Elitism/ego at work, or scum shutting down anything before it starts? If Rask is such a light hearted player who jokes oh so much, then why am I reading it differently than supposedly intended? Maybe the humor is forced? Otherwise, it may just be bad.

Your thoughts Rask?

Accurate.

Why am I scummy? @whoeversaidthat

You sound awkward and come off pretty self-conscious, in particular you play it cool in your reaction and pretend like you aren't nervous when it feels like the complete opposite.

You have any thoughts on the game so far?

My thoughts on the game are being unrealistic. Everybody seems normal to me although I find Gear, 2F and JarJar sketchy. Oh yeah post 154 is not a good response but what I agree with.

Why am I scummy? @whoeversaidthat

If you read someone saying you were scummy, how do you not know who said it?

What did you hope to accomplish with that question?

It looks like forced to me. I mean it's not like it's been 20 pages, it's been 6. He could have asked directly, but instead it looked like he was trying to avoid direct confrontation with someone

It's not. Look, I woke up at that time, trying to read the unread posts. Just finished it and too lazy to where I read that. But see, I've quoted it. Is there still a problem with that? And if I'm avoiding confrontation with someone, then I shouldn't be playing mafia after all.

I've played with Keyen before, I was scum, and had a front row seat to him OMGUSing everyone who suspected him (among other things, but that's what's relevant here). I saw that from him here, and it's good enough for me for now. Now, I am voting someone new.

But he hasn't omgused everyone voting him.

You expecting me to do that?

Yyyyyyyyyyyy

The red letters in your role pm.

No. You looked at your role pm.

VOTE: Gear

Do you think I'm scum?

Yes. Maybe.

Non sense. Do you expect me to say your town when you've actually did is to act, not scummy, but not that townish?

I think Keyen is town. He seems pretty genuine right now. I also concur with JJD in that Gear's reasoning was pretty garbage, but I don't think garbage reasoning is a scum-tell.

I think you're scum because I read you as like my scum partner on that newbie game.

I actually think keyen could be scum here

agree

Why?

.
Keyen - why so concerned about whether or not we're in RVS?

So I know if I'll post another shit posts.

All in All here's my reads:

Town:
Lannister

NullTown or just unsure reads:
All that isn't mentioned.

Leaning Town:
Gamma
Vijarada
Ssbm

NullScum:
Dave
TwoFace
Rasko

Leaning Scum:
Gear
JarJar

I can see SSBM somewhat but why are you leaning town on Gamma and Vijarada?

@Lil what are your thoughts on keyen etc?

Honestly I don't know what to make of Key. I don't really see the motivation for him to play the way he's playing as either alignment. His reads feel like he's just scum reading whoever he thinks is bullying him.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Spoiler: Quotes

Note that I'm quoting this as a new link so I just copied and paste it. Quotes are being randomized.

Hmm. I didn't have it as a scum read at all really against Lil Uzi. Looked inconsequential, but I didn't like Rask's shut down followed by calling the game 'newbie' as an aside. It seems Rask is trying to avoid conversation here, and regardless if the question was about an older post (this game hasn't even been active long enough for that time lapse excuse), what exactly was wrong with the question to shut it down and claim 'this is so newbie' after? Rask said it was a joke, and then called it ridiculous for others to not take it that way.

I find all that to be far too defensive for little reason. Aside from defensive, it has not-so-subtle barbs littering the whole post sequence. Elitism/ego at work, or scum shutting down anything before it starts? If Rask is such a light hearted player who jokes oh so much, then why am I reading it differently than supposedly intended? Maybe the humor is forced? Otherwise, it may just be bad.

Your thoughts Rask?

Accurate.

Why am I scummy? @whoeversaidthat

You sound awkward and come off pretty self-conscious, in particular you play it cool in your reaction and pretend like you aren't nervous when it feels like the complete opposite.

You have any thoughts on the game so far?

My thoughts on the game are being unrealistic. Everybody seems normal to me although I find Gear, 2F and JarJar sketchy. Oh yeah post 154 is not a good response but what I agree with.

Why am I scummy? @whoeversaidthat

If you read someone saying you were scummy, how do you not know who said it?

What did you hope to accomplish with that question?

It looks like forced to me. I mean it's not like it's been 20 pages, it's been 6. He could have asked directly, but instead it looked like he was trying to avoid direct confrontation with someone

It's not. Look, I woke up at that time, trying to read the unread posts. Just finished it and too lazy to where I read that. But see, I've quoted it. Is there still a problem with that? And if I'm avoiding confrontation with someone, then I shouldn't be playing mafia after all.

I've played with Keyen before, I was scum, and had a front row seat to him OMGUSing everyone who suspected him (among other things, but that's what's relevant here). I saw that from him here, and it's good enough for me for now. Now, I am voting someone new.

But he hasn't omgused everyone voting him.

You expecting me to do that?

Yyyyyyyyyyyy

The red letters in your role pm.

No. You looked at your role pm.

VOTE: Gear

Do you think I'm scum?

Yes. Maybe.

Non sense. Do you expect me to say your town when you've actually did is to act, not scummy, but not that townish?

I think Keyen is town. He seems pretty genuine right now. I also concur with JJD in that Gear's reasoning was pretty garbage, but I don't think garbage reasoning is a scum-tell.

I think you're scum because I read you as like my scum partner on that newbie game.

I actually think keyen could be scum here

agree

Why?

.
Keyen - why so concerned about whether or not we're in RVS?

So I know if I'll post another shit posts.

All in All here's my reads:

Town:
Lannister

NullTown or just unsure reads:
All that isn't mentioned.

Leaning Town:
Gamma
Vijarada
Ssbm

NullScum:
Dave
TwoFace
Rasko

Leaning Scum:
Gear
JarJar

I can see SSBM somewhat but why are you leaning town on Gamma and Vijarada?

@Lil what are your thoughts on keyen etc?

Honestly I don't know what to make of Key. I don't really see the motivation for him to play the way he's playing as either alignment. His reads feel like he's just scum reading whoever he thinks is bullying him.

[gerryoat]

Okay, I think we're out of that dumb phase, we can start playing the game now congrats everyone

VOTE: Gerryoat

This is a bad vote because you've played with me enough to know I say this every game. Did you finally flip maf and trying to push a vote, despite knowing that this is something that I regularly say?

@Everyone: Remember when I said that meta sucks and gave reasons why? Look at this guy ^. This is a guy that knows his meta and so uses it as a defense. He clearly thought this through beforehand.

Do we all know why meta sucks now? It allows crap like this to happen.

I think you're reaching very hard. It was just something that I say every game, and something that I feel like as town he wouldn't push on. But i guess he wasn't aware of it as I thought he would be.

I'm not reaching at all. If I was reaching, I'd have called it AI and voted you. I did neither. I simply used you as an example for why meta is useless. You used your own meta to defend yourself, which obviously is a good example showing how meta can be manipulated.

So where's the reach? Do you disagree with my assessment? Did you not use your own meta as a defense?

I don't like meta as a defense, but sometimes I do use it. I didn't really feel it was a bad use of meta though, cause it's something I literally say every game lol.

[gerryoat]

2F, your reads are as shit as ever. I remember you being so aggressive and ruining town.

lol yeah fine lynch me. go ahead.

JarJar, I still don't get why you're scum reading me. Mind to give reasons?

idk guys, he kinda sounds like me when I'm fos'd as town and upset lol. I'm kinda hesitant to vote him based on that alone. I want to see what he 'figured out' when he gets back, though.

[Vijarada]

VOTE: Gear

for that fake-ass scumhunting

There is no way that you believe that.

Vote: Jar-Jar

There's no way you believe Keyen is town for the reason you gave since what you said happened, never actually happened.

I don't think he's town, so much as I think there are better places for my vote.

I'd love to know what Varanja thought was genuine from Keyen.

He seems very casual, uncaring, laid-back. I know a lot of people think that he's doing it on purpose but I think it's genuine posting as kind of a tonal thing. That was what I felt at the time I made that post, anyway.

[Vijarada]

But I think Keyenpeydee needs to be treated with kid gloves.

Or at least take a look at
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=67926

I played a different newbie game with him, he was scum and fooled everybody. Never treat anyone with kid gloves.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo stop breaking the quote tags

[Vijarada]

See what I think happened is keynpeele realized that he posted a reads list that totally contradicted what he said in that post and tried to retcon himself.

This is reaching HAAAAARD from JJD. He made a joke referencing a previous game where we were scumbuddies, then said it was a joke in the very same post. That's just being sillly, and JJD's attempt to read it otherwise falls flat. Do you really think JJD that key wouldn't have just edited it out before posting if he realised he contradicted himself?

[PsychoticDave]

I caught up and still have null reads on pretty much everyone...

1. Why did you unvote twoface when you did?
2. What do you mean in 63?
3. There have been several exchanges by now to judge and the keyen wagon and you don't have any comment on any of it?

1. The random voting thing is a meme. I always unvote memes.
2. Pretty self-explanatory.
3. I'm really not good at scumhunting or anything. I just point out WIFOMs and try to figure shit out. I'm still pretty new to FM.

[-Grey-]

The random voting thing is a meme. I always unvote memes.

Simply unvoting instead of finding a new home for your vote looks scummy as fuck.

Stop it.

[Vijarada]

I'm gonna ISO guys like JJD (after a cursory read, leaning scum on him but I need to ISO), Keyen (still pretty sure is town), Gear etc. Before I do that, though, I would like to
VOTE: PsychoDave
He hardpushed a wagon for one post saying that keyen should be lynched already. He then fails to follow it up, claims to have caught up with no analysis, and then claims to have no scumhunting skills (so that he can back off from his previous or future reads). He still isn't voting anyone, and seems to want to do nothing except for his one ridiculously aggressive post on keyen, which could have been pushing for a town lynch from someone with no idea what he's doing.

[Vijarada]

[quote=Gamma Emerald"]Yo stop breaking the quote tags[/quote]

Sorry man. For some reason this always happens when I post at school, which is most of the time I have to post. I'm just clicking the quote button and not changing anything, so I have no idea what's going on with that. Maybe I should start just using post numbers.

[Gamma Emerald]

I checked: part of the URL is missing it seems.

[Tywin Lannister]

This is just bad play. You wouldn't keep your eye on me if Keyan flipped town? Really? Only scum know alignments, so if i were scum, wouldn't it make sense for me to not defend my scum buddy, but defend a townie wagon? I think that's common sense. What I don't like is you trying to pair me with Keyan for no reason other than me asking why the Keyan wagon got so large without any reasoning behind it. You don't seem to like that though. Why? You don't like bad wagons explained? There are plenty of things to vote Keyan for that were no apparent at that point in the game. That means those votes need explanations.

Also, you're not aggressive, just abrasive. There's a difference. You haven't added anything to the conversation that justifies it though.

What's bad play? Me wanting to keep an eye on you if key flips scum but not town? Well sorry I disagree which is why I said what I said.

Also there is no black and white with regards to what scum will do to their buddies. Some people bus, others don't. Early day 1 if a scum buddy gets into trouble it's a tough decision on what's the best way to handle it and I could totally see you as a buddy attempt to discredit the votes like you did. It's the type of defense that can be written off as a cautious townie.(for example, in the game I just finished where scum got lynched fairly early day 1, one scum flat out called the guy town.) There's no one absolute way to handle a partner getting run up.

I'm also not concerned with what you like. I call things as I see them. If that makes somebody upset/nervous/etc that's not my problem.

Also I'm not trying to pair you with anyone. You're the second person to make that mistake. Keeping an eye on somebody doesn't mean I automatically think they are scum. It just means I'll have to reread their posts to see if they make sense as a buddy. That post you made just struck me as odd.

I think town should keep their eye on me regardless of what Keyan flips. That's my point. I also don't know why you paired me with him, except for me asking for reasons from the early voters on him. I think it's a fair question to ask.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Kyouko I think you are just reading too far into it out of what looks like eagerness. I've played a bit and I hesitate making that same judgement you are (it's giving the benefit of the doubt at any rate) and even those who'd agree wouldn't go as far as to say it's obvious or clear. IMO it's giving people too much credit on both counts, on the assessment itself and given that, that people would think the same and reach your conclusion.

However, by choosing arbitrarily he implies that they are equally suspicious, or at least that they are close to the same level of suspicion.

This part too, most people do just go willynilly if it's earlygame rvs-ish there to vote for the sake of it, and your approach/analysis here would fit more in a later-day context. IOW you're probably better questioning/wide-focus this point as you run a risk overanalysing shallow things if you go that deep this early.

I'm not eliminating anyone from my d1 lynches yet. I don't even see the analysis of those posts as deep either, it was an obvious conclusion to me that what gear said was contradictory, so that's why I'm on him now. Still early so I'm still watching people. Until someone does something more suspicious than gear or gear does things to make me tr him my vote will stay. As it turns out I was right about Dave though

[gerryoat]

I understand the case on key, but what exactly is the case on JarJar? I believe he has 4 votes on him right now. I haven't really seen anyone give a case though.

[Vijarada]

Not a fan of two-face saying that Tywin should be looked at if keyen is scum, then saying "There's no one way that buddies interact, we should just read Tywin after a scumflip to see if they make sense as buddies". That seems like a different position taken after questioning.

P-Edit for SSBM: Not sure you were right about PsychoDave. It is true that he probably came from a fast environment, but he pushed a random lynch and then backed off, proceeding to do nothing. Whatever environment you are from, that seems scummy to me. If he was trying to scumhunt from the perspective of a fast paced environment he would continue to push keyen or someone else agressively, but he hasn't.

P-Edit for Gerryoat: I think his unvote early in the game seemed pretty forced, and he's reached a couple of times in ways that I don't like. I also believe that his high activity is an illusion, as he asks many questions but does not provide a lot of opinions on his own (this is my first impression from a cursory ISO, it may turn out that this is not his activity at all, but that is what it seemed like).

[gerryoat]

Okay, I'll ISO him and then i'll let you know what I think after

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'd have to reread to see what all this jjd business is about but it seems like he's just been rubbing people the wrong way.

[Raskolnikov]

Huh, didn't realize this wagon was this big.

Jarjar isn't getting lynched btw, I wanted gamma's vote/case there for gamma's own sake not as an actual consideration.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Quick skim of Jar's ISO and yeah I think this is town Jar. I don't really see what's the problem there. Is it the amount of reads he has this early on in the game?

[Raskolnikov]

People who I'd consider good votes atm:
keyen
psychodave
gamma emerald