Micro 669 - Procrastination Mafia - At The End...(GAME OVER)

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: gamma

First time as a hydra, this'll be fun.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

There's a secret agent...someone better follow him and see what he's up to.

VOTE: SAJ

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why not ask me the same thing?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: BnL

My gut says so.

-Limited

[Infinite Justice]

What's wrong with a 3-vote RVS wagon?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

That's silly even if you're roleplaying here, I mean it takes effort to unvote but not to stay on a wagon

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: Infinite Justice

we got a different kind of justice around hERE

Zach's only post before dunn's vote...

Dreamer I love your stream-of-consciousness but it's gonna get cluttery if you do that all game so can you maybe cut down on it a little?

[Infinite Justice]

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Was it the extent or the way he did it that bothered you?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

BnL, the second post doesn't really count as RPing. You really think that town wouldn't RP in 3 posts early on?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I don't think it is the RP that is bothering, I think it's just that it seems forced and overdone and that is not ever good because 1 it skews an ability to read you (and so just comes off scummy)

Well that's not what BnL said

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

L-2 in a 9p is 3 votes

[Infinite Justice]

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I don't see how that's a big deal

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I'm not sure whether to give BnL townpoints for sticking to his guns or scumpoints for calling out such a small number of essentially fluff posts.

[Infinite Justice]

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Anything to comment on?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

There is a world where he believes that, it's just unlikely I guess.

No, I think significant amount of fluff in places where content is expected is scummy for sure. But content isn't really expected by page 4. Look at dunn and zach for example, no one's calling them out. And 3 posts of fluff in any case is not enough to be scummy, and most townies would agree with me I think.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why's it unlikely?

Because I don't often see town holding that opinion. Not to say unorthodox opinions are scummy, but this one seems more likely for scum to think they can justify.

When's content expected?

Well it's not a hard and fast line, but lets say page 10 in a micro.

If you think someone should be calling out dunnstral and zachstralk why are you not calling them out?

Because I don't expect content from everyone on page 4

Why does one need to be town to agree with you on what content is readable vs not?

You don't, but there are certain things I expect town to read people based off of and certain things I don't. That doesn't mean those expectations are true, and I didn't call BnL scum, just voiced a concern.

Personally I read by every word I possibly can, if you disagree that's theory, and I think that's where your push on bullet stems from.

Well you have a point, but I think you're in the minority. I also find it a common scum strategy to nitpick on a few posts to build reads.

Like, would you have found it more forgivable if he had called out a

larger

number of fluff posts, or didn't take issue with someone roleplaying awkwardly at all?

Yes, I would've.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

culted do you have an opinion of your own on anything? Or are you just going to ask questions?

I like this because I was thinking the same thing but didn't feel like it needed to be said.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why dreamer?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Ok can you unvote to avoid a QH tho

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

That's patently false, town quickhammer in about the same proportions if not more than scum do.

And I'm not going to claim when we're barely out of RVS, many players still haven't posted content, and 2 of the votes on me aren't serious. Are you insane?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

For example, quickhammering is definitely sometimes town!dunnstral would do and has done as both alignments. I'm very glad he's already voting me right now. Now please unvote.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

As a frequent micro player, I can say that you can and should expect at the very least a significant amount of content from everyone on d1. It will get better if we make it get better.

You saying you'll try to lynch anyone who hammers me isn't comforting given the statistics.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Have you played in a micro before? Why do you seem intent on ending the day early as opposed to letting it play out and lynching someone if it's going slowly?

-Inf

PEdit: Given how many times both town and scum have quickhammered people when the day should not have been over, I think my fear is pretty reasonable.

And no I can't give a fuller assessment of BnL, because I don't have enough to read him off of.

[Infinite Justice]

You seem to be intent on at least starting to end the day. Having someone claim is sometimes followed by a lynch. Point is, I don't see a reason to start working towards a lynch unless the deadline is near or the game is going slow, neither of which are true. Also as far as I know only 1 person other than you is scumreading me (cause titus has barely shown up yet lol)

Different sites are going to have different customs, and you have to adapt when you change sites. Though I have no evidence for this, I bet you mafiascum would have a higher town winrate for the same setups than other sites that tend to end days really quickly.

But this is getting nowhere, so w/e

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Days go how Days go

no matter the size

can't dictate how they go based on your conceptions of how they should go

I agree with you, and since so far the game seems to be developing in a productive direction I don't see why we'd end the day.

[Infinite Justice]

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I got that.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

my HS has a good number of really exceptional players

I don't want to share it publicly, sorry, I'd rather not be meta-mined or whatever else (have some shameful games too! woo!)

in SMURFIA I was scum with nacho and he kicked butt and I did meh okay - tammy has played on there too (game I modded)

our pace is generally 1-2 week Days and 3-5 day Nights
content tends to be deep

Given that, it seems very weird and unnatural to me that you'd ask for a claim in a game that's progressing yet still in its early stages. Try to explain?

-Inf

PEdit: I don't see how you're confident you've found scum based on this much reasoning, and even if there was a confirmed scum right now I'd wait to progress the day much further before lynching them because I believe d1 content is very important for later days. Maybe that's just me, but I want to try to understand why you disagree in this instance and I don't think you explained it properly.

[Infinite Justice]

found scum based on this much evidence*

[Infinite Justice]

My vote on BnL is titus's vote. Believe it or not there are 2 players in this slot, and I didn't find a better place to put it, so I didn't see a reason to change it.

Proper response later.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

And you're in this game??

If I wasn't in a hydra now, my vote would be random, let's just say that.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

1.) for me it is completely natural, no matter the circumstance: if you're at L-1, you fucking claim (if you're town, also if you're scum because smartscum try to be towny and town always should claim imo), because of the potential for QH, because it shows your desire to shake the wagon and not lose your role/vote/view to a lynch - to me you're trying to force the game into a "stage" that it is not in, you're at L-1, that is the primary thing, regardless of what other conceptions you might hold about how it "should" be, how it is is you're at L-1 and should be claiming so that we can judge whether to stay on you or get off.

I kinda get what you're saying here, but me and most other players I've played with on this site see it very differently. A claim is sort of a last resort to determine whether or not someone is scum, because you want to give as little information to scum as possible. In my view, no one should claim until town is basically ready for a lynch. So I think you guys should question and observe me to determine my alignment rather than have me claim, and mitigate the risk of a quickhammer by not having me at L-1 so early as opposed to, again, having me claim. Not only that, once again, it seems that 2 of the votes on me are not serious, which makes it even more ridiculous to me that we'd have a claim. Again, claims for me should only happen when you'd have a lynch in a vanilla setup. Otherwise, I'd be giving away information to scum when my lynch can definitely be avoided without it.

I don't think I'm forcing the game into a stage it's not in, if anything you're the one who's doing that imo. The game seems to be in the early d1 stage, and you seem to be forcing it into the late d1 stage. If you disagree, ok but I think you might be a minority.

2.) I often don't function on pure "reasoning" - this is mafia and to me it is a lot of behavioral analysis, motivations, associations, attitude, the genuineness I feel in it all - there's a combination of these things that lead me to intuit that you are scum, it's a skill I'm usually good with, there's not much reason to it a lot of time, it gets me SR a lot because I try to push a read like this and it doesn't often go over well because I don't know how to go about it so well when it's like this - the main thing is, I am confident in voting you as scum. I know I'm town. I know I have town's best interests in me, and I know that it is not good to vote without that feeling of confidence. I don't vote without confidence/comfort in a vote. If I feel this good about it, I'm sticking with it. No doubt. It serves me well. often.

Look, I'm a big believer in gut, but even the best of the best won't be able to make a very accurate gut prediction based on 7 pages. You're going to be wrong a decent amount of time, and you're wrong here. Keep questioning me and try to figure me out to supplement your gut.

3.) I agree but that is a generalization and a stalling or muddying of things as the day progresses is also something scum often will do when town is on the right track "wait wait, we're moving too fast! how can we be so sure they're scum so soon?" well we can't be SO SURE, but it's D1, and there's nothing TO KNOW, and if you've got comfort in a vote, go for it, give the reasons the best you can, and move forward. Everyone at their own pace, certainly, but don't halt your pace based on someone else asserting taht you shouldn't be advancing the game yet. That's ridiculous.

Again, the Day has not ended, has it? There is content generating, right now, so, quit balking the advancement of the game.

I think you should slow down and take your time not based on my personal opinion of how games should go, but based on my assessment of how this game is going. Yes, there is content being generated right now, and funnily enough, our argument is generating quite a bit. But if it was up to you, there would be a claim. Not to say a claim gets in the way of generating content, but when you are generating content and so far away from the deadline and just not necessary. I don't think you're giving enough weight to the importance of scum knowing someone's role, especially in a micro. That or you're not putting enough important on continuing to generate content when there's more content to be generated.

That said, I do think it's likely that you believe what you're saying.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Play the game

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Let's be completely honest here. Are you willing to listen to my side? If not, there's no point in having this discussion because I think you're town.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Done. vote stays, no question.

Let's be completely honest here. Are you willing to listen to my side? If not, there's no point in having this discussion because I think you're town.

-Inf

of course I am

but I can't listen if you're not saying anything that you haven't said already

say something, I'll listen

Which is it? If we're going to continue this discussion I need you to be completely honest with yourself and try your absolute hardest to be unbiased. In return, I'll drop the points we're getting nowhere on and will stop repeating myself. To be completely honest, it's fucking annoying being tunneled on and it's just not worth my time if you're not going to change your mind no matter what.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Ok. I have class in a few minutes so in a couple hours I'll respond to you. I really don't think I've brought the tunnel on myself, and I've been trying to bring up new points and say them in a way you'd understand, but I guess I didn't really do it well enough.

Also I'll talk more content about other stuff when other people contribute more since this is basically all that's going on at the moment but yeah

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

My vote on BnL is titus's vote. Believe it or not there are 2 players in this slot, and I didn't find a better place to put it, so I didn't see a reason to change it.

Proper response later.

-Inf

you are 1 slot 1 entity and therefore you get ONE READ from me

to me this equivocates to "I don't know why I'm voting who I'm voting for"

this is an unacceptable answer at this point in the game, especially when you're L-1 and you are voting for the person that the person who is pushing your wagon thinks you are buddies with - I mean, it's not hard to see the HUGE ISSUES here

vote explanation is utter bogus and you are contradicting yourself and that is SCUM SCUM SCUM

I don't see why you put so much important on where my vote is. To be honest, my vote could be on BnL, on you, my top townread, or on no one, and it wouldn't make too much of a difference to me. So I kept my vote because the best purpose for it right now is to let titus to whatever she was gonna do with it. Titus did then tell me by pm that I could move my vote, but I don't see a reason to because I don't have a place for it. It seems to me that you put a lot of importance on where people's votes are at any given time, but I don't in the early game and that's basically what this is.

I also don't see where I contradicted myself

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

people claim on this site like it's the trendy thing to do - all of the fucking time, when they're not at L-1 at all

And those people are dumb

in my view L-1 means town is ready for a lynch and the only thing now is for the person to claim so anyone on the wagon can decide to get off and anyone off can decide to get on (or hammer if no one gets off)

I agree. Do you think we should ask everyone whether they are ready for a lynch? Do you think the people whose votes on me aren't serious are ready for a lynch?

you criticize dunnstral for not playing the game, but, it is you who are stalling and not playing the game - he is just waiting for you to get on with it, as are we all I think at this point

I put out a lot more content not just related to defending myself than dunnstral did. And I don't think the game is delayed by me refusing to claim, given how much we have to discuss (sorry for repeating that but I think it needed to be repeated)

1.) DONE

I would argue in the process of being done, but ok

2.) *looks at timestamps* - argument of fearing a QH no longer valid

Fair enough

WTF? so you're just NOT GOING TO CLAIM AT ALL THEN?

I'll claim when I believe most townies are ready for a lynch.

I absolutely know the weight of importance of these things. If you don't want to claim, do something that makes people unvote you.

I'm trying, but I will also say that towntelling on purpose is kinda scum's job not town's job.

[Infinite Justice]

Back to class

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

See, most people vote based on very small things in the stage past RVS, but I don't particularly want to point out those things because I want to see if those behaviors continue for a longer time. Therefore, I don't have a good place to put my vote. If you think no town could possibly have no good place to put their vote at the moment, fine--there's no way I'm convincing you.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

UNVOTE: Secret Agent Jin

VOTE: drealmerz7

I think his initial gut read of IJ/BNL scumread is nonsense, and him persisting it is a newbscum tactic (yes, Drealmer is new), especially with a lack of scumhunting elsewhere.

The bottom of page 3 and post 117 is also inconsistent with his deathtunnel on IJ

You think town don't often tunnel early on?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I'm fine with you having issues with my play, I'm not ok when you accuse me of shit like twisting your points, contradicting myself, or stalling the game which I never fucking did. And you're being hypocritical as fuck when you saying that I'm defending myself and not scumhunting while you're attacking me and doing nothing else.

-Inff

[Infinite Justice]

Voting no one helps no one. Even if I did have somewhere else to vote, I'd keep voting BnL now just to spite you tbh

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: BnL
VOTE: BnL
VOTE: BnL
VOTE: BnL

Why isn't he lynched? Oh wait I forgot,

it's one fucking vote, it doesn't matter

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

zach, why are you doing nothing

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Can you at least do something at some point during d1

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Dreamer is my strongest townread, I don't see a reason to put himself out there as much as he did so early

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

You can be pissed off at someone at still townread them. Over time I've come to accept that people who aggressively tunnel, on me as well, are almost always town, no matter how pissed I get at them.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I'd like people to give their opinions on the back-and-forth between me and dreamer

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Missed it for some reason

I'm not describing their play as scum

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Yeah pretty much

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Now give your opinion on these wagons and our fight. Do you really think dreamer is scum?

No one vote dreamer since he'll probably claim at L-1 and although that would be funny it'd be counterproductive.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Then you might want to move your vote gamma?

/hypocrisy

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I think it's the second cause again, scum very rarely put themselves out there like that.

VOTE: zach I like this actually

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Yes I agree that IJ is town, but that's just going off my gut.

IJ: You seem to be town reading Drealmer because "he's too scummy to be scum", and I disagree that's towny. Explain this?

Not understanding the Zach wagon.

My internet broke earlier. I do approve of the vote by my other head.

Drealmerz is pretty town. It's real easy to get on his bad side, just disagree with him.

The Limited signature was just to show I am not infinity. I was not planning on lurking.

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: BnL

My gut says so.

-Limited

Hmm.. I decoded this and it seems that Titus will only be able to post in " Limited " capacity.

You're welcome guys.

No one vote dreamer since he'll probably claim at L-1 and although that would be funny it'd be counterproductive.

how

It's counterproductive because it gives info for scum

I appreciate you defending me zach, but it doesn't seem like you personality as town and last time you defended me you were scum (although you did it differently tbf). I'd rather you try and find scum/explain your scumspects than try to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.

Yes I agree that IJ is town, but that's just going off my gut.

IJ: You seem to be town reading Drealmer because "he's too scummy to be scum", and I disagree that's towny. Explain this?

I'm not, putting yourself out there aggressively is not too scummy to be scum, it's just something that scum don't do. It's just not necessary and takes too much effort and not many other people townread it like I do.

only on my bad side cause you're scum

my strategy with how I hooked you is hard to describe, but, I do use it on the regular and I know the feeling of scum at the end of my line - it's a weight that doesn't let go

town it "let's go"

that's the best I know how to describe it

Plus scum usually don't try to make up stuff like this to explain themselves.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

For real?

You've been at L-1 already,but you don't think the placement of your vote is important?

This shit can't be right.

I'm kinda fuzzy on the point you're making here.

That vote placement is important. That we are out of RVS. That anyone with a vote in a spot just for the hell of it could end up in a lynch they don't support. That they should probably actually do something since they are a viable lynch.

I'm sure there are other things, but basically their lack of care for their vote is very concerning and not something I appreciate.

Ok well I've already explained this a million times to dreamer so I'm not gonna try to explain it to you again. If titus hadn't voted BnL my vote would've been random. If there was a wagon on BnL I would've unvoted. That's it, that's how I play the game and if you don't like it suck it up.

You seem very off ari, you usually play very nice and friendly. What's up?

Also fuck you for quickhammering, seriously.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I don't really understand your perspective on this either tbh. I didn't have anyone I wanted to vote so I respected my hydra partner's vote. Would you have just unvoted there?

Sorry about irl stuff, I hope you'll be able to get engaged in the game and have fun

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

LOL we got trolled so hard

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Ok let's play sensible.

VOTE: gamma

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

The funny part is the mod was either trolling us too or actually thought there was a hammer

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Because I don't think this is how you play as town

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

It was partly not having scumreads culted, and partly the slight issues I noticed were playstyle/tone things, and I wanted to wait a little longer to see if they kept up.

On that note though, it'd make me and probably other feel better if you gave some sort of read. I know it can be helpful to sit back and make observations, but it's very convenient for scum if they aren't bound to anything.

I'd like gamma to explain what he thinks me and zach are noticing with his play and if he has an explanation for why that is.

-Inf

PEdit: I doubt that gamma, I often say when you're town that you're all over the place and hyperactive. You seem to be much more subdued here, can you come up with a possible explanation?

[Infinite Justice]

Weren't people engaged in watch dogs? How about scout's mini normal?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

>obligatory middle finger at dreamer for how much content is being generated by me and others

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

they didn't have scumreads at the time

Here's my problem. They should have at least 1 person worth pushing/voting. Why didn't they have someone to push or prod?

No, the only people I had issues with (e.g. zach) I needed to wait and see if they continued their behavior

I have seen scum!gamma and iirc it's more subdued in general but not always

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Weren't people engaged in watch dogs? How about scout's mini normal?

-Inf

Watch Dogs was a Blitz, I WAS being subdued in scout other game, because I was a watcher and didn't want to stick my neck out. I DID try to boost thinks Day 1 though.

Blitz will change your post frequency, it shouldn't generally change your aggressive tone or being all over the place. In scout's mini normal, you were still joking, votehopping, and such and it still reminded me of your town play.

What's your read on ari and do you still scumread zach?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Gonna lurk this harder than Zach

Rest of you guys lynch Infinite justice, they're probably scum and deserve to be wagonned anyway just for being a hydra of infinity and titus

VOTE: Dunn

You just tripped my favorite scumtell of all time.

[Infinite Justice]

Yup, we should do this.

~Titus

I am back...Silly me ignored this bc hammer.

[Infinite Justice]

The fact he doesn't bother to ask about the tell worries me

Me too. What changed your read on zach btw?

I don't think zach should get towncred just for saying that he didn't see the fakehammer

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Who is scum if not zach gamma?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

IJ is probably town, this feels like genuine frustration.

The more I think about this post the more it bothers me, I don't know why

I feel like town would engage or something, gamma seems to be saying that just to be the first one to say it

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

The fact he doesn't bother to ask about the tell worries me

Couldn't care less about tells

Dunn, what's your read on us? I want to see more of your thought process this game

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Culted's playstyle here is useful to scum as scum but can also be a town way of playing. I need an opinion from him to sort him. The opinion can be any read.

I definitely agree with you, but I'm not sure if I should townread you for sharing my thoughts or scumread you for parroting me

VOTE: BulletNLynchproof

Ok this is a stance, can you explain it?

[Infinite Justice]

I have issues with you just saying that now without pointing it out before. I expected if you townread zach after the fakehammer thing for you to immediately vote for who you think is scum or try to find them.

VOTE: gamma

Why did you scumread SAJ before his latest post?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I have issues with IJ on this page.

IJ, is it scum motivated to be not voting instead of voting next strongest scumread?

It's not town motivated when there's a certain amount of time when someone has no scumreads and doesn't care or doesn't even mention it, especially for the normally hyperactive gamma. It makes a lot more sense for scum to just wait for something to come along that they can call scummy.

The fact he doesn't bother to ask about the tell worries me

me too
but that IJ doesn't go into more detail about it themselves also worries me

That's cause titus said that and she hasn't been here, zzz

IJ is probably town, this feels like genuine frustration.

The more I think about this post the more it bothers me, I don't know why

you don't know why?

I feel like town would engage or something, gamma seems to be saying that just to be the first one to say it
-Inf

but then you do?

why does it "seem" that way? what advantage does it get him for being the first to say it? how would it have been different in a genuine "first to say it" post?

Why did you ask the question if it won't change your mind one way or the other? If it matters at all to anyone else I'll answer it but there's no way you're getting out of your tunnel.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I have issues with IJ on this page.

IJ, is it scum motivated to be not voting instead of voting next strongest scumread?

It's not town motivated when there's a certain amount of time when someone has no scumreads and doesn't care or doesn't even mention it, especially for the normally hyperactive gamma. It makes a lot more sense for scum to just wait for something to come along that they can call scummy.
-Inf

So lack of town motivation means scum motivation?

Waiting around for something to call scummy instead of being proactive about it is scum-motivated.

Really don't see your issue here, it's pretty straightforward.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

^ ok come on guys that can't look town to you

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Ok, I'd be interested in the results later on.

But me calling you scum doesn't prevent you from testing a theory

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Dreamer, do you think you could at least try to critically analyze the behavior of everyone that isn't BnL and I because otherwise you'll just be stuck in confbias the whole game

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

IJ - sure but it'd be swell if my points got addressed as well and not just discarded as they have been since the beginning by you and BNL for non-reasons

If I see evidence that you're actually trying to solve my alignment, I'll answer your questions, but I don't think it's unreasonable not to engage with you if I don't think anything productive will come out of it.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

My case: Zach's claimed vt when he was "hammered" as scum before and everyone unvoted him and ignored that

I hear you, and I'm not saying zach is town because of that. But I also don't see how it makes him scum... Mainly in letting him off the hook because I think gamma is a lot scummier.

@Ari gamma is scum because he is only ever this subdued as scum, there was a time period where he seemed to have scumhunting mode turned off after zach revealed it was a fakehammer, and there were a few posts that pinged me

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

^What are you even talking about...

Citation needed?

Drealmer has an apparently strong gut read that IJ and I are scum and everyone else is town, and we're part halfway.

Zero way that comes from town

That shows being dumb and inflexible, not scum.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Every time someone has hard tunneled me I've townread them, and I've never been wrong

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Every time someone has hard tunneled me I've townread them, and I've never been wrong

-Inf

false

Example?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

BnL, what's your read on gamma

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why BnL culted?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

^ good point

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Like, not giving views as town is a strategy. (That's why I kept my vote on BnL so long). That seemed to be the strategy culted was using up until now, then he gives away his whole readslist and leaves which reads he explains up to the whims of the town (and scum btw). Doesn't seem like much of a strategy to me.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I've said it multiple times already, I didn't want to reveal my slight scumreads on zach or maybe others because I wanted to see if their actions kept up

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

See, most people vote based on very small things in the stage past RVS, but I don't particularly want to point out those things because I want to see if those behaviors continue for a longer time.

It was partly not having scumreads culted, and partly the slight issues I noticed were playstyle/tone things, and I wanted to wait a little longer to see if they kept up.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Because you don't like my early-game strategy and can't argue with it, it must be scumtactics. You have to realize how confbiased you are, dude.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

@Everyone: culted said that BnL and myself are the scum team, what links the two of us and if one flips scum, what makes the other obvscum from looking at the flip?

Why would anyone except culted agree with him that you two are linked? Culted didn't even say that himself, he just said that he has scumreads on both of you.

Tbh I'm fine with the current vote count since there are 3 votes on gamma, but there are only 4 days left so I suggest getting a claim p soon

A great way to do this would be by voting gamma

[Infinite Justice]

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

@Everyone: culted said that BnL and myself are the scum team, what links the two of us and if one flips scum, what makes the other obvscum from looking at the flip?

Why would anyone except culted agree with him that you two are linked? Culted didn't even say that himself, he just said that he has scumreads on both of you.

Tbh I'm fine with the current vote count since there are 3 votes on gamma, but there are only 4 days left so I suggest getting a claim p soon

A great way to do this would be by voting gamma

BnL and myself are the only two scumreads culted has. culted could have scum read us independently but if we are both scum in culted eyes then we must have something linking us or maybe something that looks like one of us is bussing the other. I am not scum and i cant talk for BnL but i can guarantee we are not scum together. As for my question to everyone about BnL and myself being linked, i was asking if anyone else sees BnL and myself as the scumteam. I also am not going to drop my vote on Gamma as it would be a compromise vote for me and there is enough time to scum hunt before a vote like that. Why comment on a question i being forth but never actually answer the question then say you are fine with a split vote count and soft push the fact you want my vote. That post is just distracting and, frankly, it makes me suspicious of you.

With only 4 days left, I disagree that there's enough time to scumhunt without asking for a claim tbh. Also, I though it was clear that I didn't think you and BnL were the scumteam given that I'm voting gamma...

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

4 days is plenty to scum hunt but i will compromise if we get down to 2 and dont have a cohesive lynch.

It's up to you, but 2 days isn't much to lynch someone else if the claim is believable

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Like, not giving views as town is a strategy. (That's why I kept my vote on BnL so long). That seemed to be the strategy culted was using up until now, then he gives away his whole readslist and leaves which reads he explains up to the whims of the town (and scum btw). Doesn't seem like much of a strategy to me.

-Inf

But you did agree with me culted's strategy was a town strategy 305.

I agreed with you that it

can

be a town strategy, but the way it's played out here doesn't seem like that to me. If you're using a strategy as town, you generally don't completely undermine it all at once even if it may have served some of its purposes.

And that's not why you kept your vote on me, I only said that six days into Day 1.

It's not anything that you said, I was using that strategy myself.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Yeah.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

It seems like BnL isn't understand certain things that well but he's questioning them instead of attacking them, which looks town to me.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Who is scum if not zach gamma?

-Inf

SAJ and Dunn I guess, the first is my stronger SR.

This

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

BnL, I see what you're seeing here, but we have 4 days left and need to consolidate a wagon. Vote gamma and have him claim and we'll see where it goes from there.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

4 days last minute imo. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but don't be surprised when we end up with a lynch and no claim or even a no lynch. And judging by the last couple days, not everyone is posting. Compromising is a necessary evil especially on d1.

I don't townread ari, but I don't think it's realistic to wagon there today, and I don't scumread him nearly as strongly as I do gamma.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I get why it feels suspicious to you that I'm seeking the gamma vote not completely based on a scumminess argument but also a necessity argument. But the necessarily argument is definitely there imo, 4 days isn't a lot of time. Just to be clear though, I'd be advocating gamma votes even if there was more time left in the deadline.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

selling the gamma vote*

[Infinite Justice]

Hey I have an idea

Someone vote gamma so we don't have to rush to deadline lynch

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I have issues with you just saying that now without pointing it out before. I expected if you townread zach after the fakehammer thing for you to immediately vote for who you think is scum or try to find them.

VOTE: gamma

Why did you scumread SAJ before his latest post?

-Inf

Actually, why didn't you ask the same question to Ari?

Tbh it's just cause he wasn't on my radar already. But he gets scumpoints for that to

Wait IJ you aren't wanting people to compromise you just want a claim from Gamma don't you?

I do want people to compromise, and it's looking like gamma is the best compromise.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

BnL is acting pretty town and doesn't have much support

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

If BnL has to be our compromise I'll put him at L-1 but i'm pretty sure he's town

culted, Ari, and BnL really need to consolidate. We have just under 4 days and we need to have time to respond to a claim. Which wagon you choose is up to you.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Like, not giving views as town is a strategy. (That's why I kept my vote on BnL so long). That seemed to be the strategy culted was using up until now, then he gives away his whole readslist and leaves which reads he explains up to the whims of the town (and scum btw). Doesn't seem like much of a strategy to me.

Quick correction here.
The reads I explain are up to the whims of I.

Only exception would be like, you could push me for not explaining a read I guess. But if I refuse to then it's not because I'm scum or I can't it's because I don't really feel the need to.

Does that make more sense?

Ok, but giving the readslist by itself is an issue in that context imo.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Ok, but giving the readslist by itself is an issue in that context imo.

Not really when you consider scum can't sheep naked reads.

Interesting, I was looking at the read-hiding thing as a way to slow scum's adjustment to your tells.

Will ISO BnL I guess but rn I'm not seeing scum.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why is gamma town?

I currently have few townread so I'd support most lynches over a BnL one.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I see what you're seeing with 421, but eh

This is frustrating because I thought I caught scum!gamma but it just barely doesn't have enough support

-Inf

PEdit: why is asking a clarifying question that may be unnecessary scumposting? It's consistent from what I've seen of town!BnL

[Infinite Justice]

Ari may be a scummy vote in a different context, like if ari already had any votes, but I don't see why scum would want to try to start a new wagon this close to deadline unless their scumpartner was in danger (i.e. gamma).

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I'm leaning bad town atm, though?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

What do you think I should be doing differently

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

You don't get to call someone bad for having reads different from yours pre-flip. Let's have that discussion postgame. Sorry if I'm being fussy but that really annoyed me.

-Inf

PEdit: so what's the point of the vote...?

[Infinite Justice]

Nitpicking is something town!BnL does all the time. Plus I didn't find his points that terrible, just not super convincing.

Also I don't think scum would vote for just those reasons.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I mean if scum wouldn't think anyone would sheep it, why would they think it made them look more town? I think scum probably knows that vote does nothing there.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I don't think I'm gonna bother towncasing BnL, but I'm probably not going to change my mind on him. Despite his awkwardness and nitpickiness, I see a genuine desire to push for solutions in his posts.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Luckily your vote isn't needed to lynch scum today.

What's with the dispassionate tone in your posts? Is this common for you?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

culted, do you actually think you have passion that's showing through in your posts this game?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I'm not sure if it's a white knight or they're buddies but there's scum in bullet/justice almost guaranteed. Jin's the third if one's wrong. Easy games are easy sometimes.

I'll give you a lot of credit if you're right here, but you're acting overconfident as fuck.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Can't or want to keep it hidden?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I'm not asking if other people can feel it, I'm asking if you believe you see it when you read your own posts.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Your scumhunting is very simplistic culted

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

LOL

I think depth is useful everywhere though. Especially when you may have some awkward or noobish townies in the game.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

If your theory was correct, town ICs would barrel through newbie games. But that's not the case, and it's not just the SEs that stop them.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

My reason for townreading BnL is strong gut, let's say. Pretending to solve a game is not hard, ok, but he's doing it in a way that seems ineffective as scum and it's hard for me to see the scum motivation in his play. The things you call out to be fakesounding to me generally look like town awkwardness.

Stop being so cocky and accept that we disagree. Mafia is hard, people have different opinions, we accept that and continue playing.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Of course I'd vote him to get a lynch, but if any other lynch is possible save a couple then I'd prefer that.

I already laid out my case on gamma, by the way the last discussion went I'm not gonna bother trying to convince you.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

yeah there's not enough time left

screw you dunnstral

VOTE: BnL

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

*grumble grumble* gamma scum *grumble grumble*

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I have recently been reading IJ as scummy because of the insistence on people voting Gamma but not actually pointing out sufficient evidence for me to hop on.

I thought I already laid out enough evidence. But ok

I hope you're not insinuating a lack of time is somehow my fault

No, but the fact that BnL was wagoned and not gamma is mostly your fault.

Meanwhile Gamma is focusing on minute not-really-important stuff here, seems to be asking questions that go nowhere rather than gamesolving

Very true

tbh I think Dunn's push on Zach after the claim was p scummy
I haven't addressed you since no one really asked me to yet.

Showing more lack of initiative.

Actually I'll ask.
Infinite Justice, what does your "screw you Dunnstral" mean?

I didn't like how dunn switched to bnl

How is the way he's going about this game ineffective as scum?

He doesn't seem to be jumping on wagons or pushing lynches that will go through, and a lot of his questions and thoughts don't seem to me like something scum thinks they'd get townpoints for.

What did you hope to gain by asking this question?

If culted could explain the phenomenon well, he'd get townpoints

Narrative slip.

Yeah I wouldn't do that as scum though, and it's pretty apparent if you're played with me before

I had thoughts I hadn't written down. I admittedly haven't done much this game yet

Scummy people now:
IJ
Gamma
SAJ

This post pings me a lot, especially the first line. It's possible he usually wouldn't do that as scum, but did it as scum this time? I don't know if town!dunn or scum!dunn is more likely to WIFOM, or even if scum!dunn is lazy enough to make such a scummy post. But that's definitely a possibility. (dunn is generally a very good scumplayer)

Kinda don't like how bullet just up and vanished either. :/

Throwing shade on the technical IC I see.

Speaking of throwing shade, gamma is just starting to be proactive now and making up reasons to call people scum when the pressure is on him. I don't see how town thinks that slightly calling into question the alignment of someone who isn't even conftown is scummy.

Gamma is always awkward.

Yeah but he usually shows lack of initivative and is usually all over the place. Plus constantly bringing up points that don't matter very much is a scum trait of his in my experience.

Don't know whether gamma's at L-2 or L-1 but he should claim, if he's at L-2 consider this a vote.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: gamma

[Infinite Justice]

Dunn is reaction testing or something. Gamma should claim full powers so we know whether to believe him, but it's already looking like quite a bit of power.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Actually if dunn isn't daycop then there isn't an issue of power. But I still don't really believe gamma's claim

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Actually if dunn isn't daycop then there isn't an issue of power. But I still don't really believe gamma's claim

-Inf

Why are you acting like my claim could be real?

Well there could be ~shenanigans~ but yeah that's unlikely

What townie comes to the conclusion that someones "misinterpreting their result"

And what scum says that?

Idk I just highly doubt BnL is scum with that claim and play

Gamma can you claim your role name?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Dunn, do you have ~reasons~ for thinking gamma is town? That claim seems super safe and is probably exactly what I would do as scum (if I had to make something up, which we don't know tbf)

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

DUNN IS NOT A DAYCOP

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

He was reaction testing

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

For the first post, I was being dumb

For the second post I said already, there was the thought in the back of my mind that there could be shenanigans. But the "if" there is interchangeable with "since...probably"

I'm not a miller.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Gamma can you claim your role name?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Gamma can you claim your role name?

-Inf

Zach, gamma's claim didn't warrant any votes off of him.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Gamma can you claim your role name?

-Inf

If gamma continues to not answer then someone can hammer

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Oh, sorry

Yeah I'm still fine with a hammer

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

You could be a scum JoaT

You could be a scum neighborizer

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Yeah neighborizer would be a reason to leave you alive but it's not enough imo

Someone set me right if I'm overconfident or conf biased

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

If someone has an issue with the neighborizing thing then we can talk about that. Otherwise we should lynch gamma since the plurality decided he's scum by play.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Dunn, do I get to make fun of you if gamma flips scum?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

If culted could explain the phenomenon well, he'd get townpoints

What phenomenon?

You're trying very hard to read into PASSION. If you can't feel it, you can't. There's nothing I can do about that.

It's true for any quirk in behavior, I often try to ask people to explain it. I asked gamma to explain why he's more subdued, and I got a crappy answer and voted him.

I'm good with gamma being lynched even though he hasn't fullclaimed since there's no version of neighborize, investigate, protect that would make me think he's town. I still strongly believe he's scum and am highly suspicious of the fact that he's getting counterwagoned yet again. Zach would be an ok compromise though, and we may not have much choice, but I haven't been given one good reason not to lynch gamma.

@zach get your vote the fuck back on gamma.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Zach is at L-1

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I'm not FoSing Dunnstral. I think he's scum. He hasn't solved shit much less came up with an actual case on me but you people are going to let him coast to endgame and wonder why you lost.

I hear you, but he could easily be town doing nothing. That's what's so annoying about dunn.

I do think culted's criticism of you for having nebulous scumreads was legitimate, can you address that better?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Also as an aside, there is too little resistance to a Zach lynch, which also worries me.

If Zach doesn't have a claimable VT flavour then ofc we lynch him, but otherwise I don't really like this.

You're giving very good reasons to stay on gamma

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

The gamma wagon can still be a thing if you make it one! (plus BnL is probably going to hop back on)

The me wagon, well, idk but it didn't seem like a very good wagon to me anyway

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Yeah, that infinity guy looks pretty town to me

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

This is pretty hilariously probably going to end up being decided by dreamer, who probably didn't even care enough to read the wagonees' posts lol

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Haha

I'd only make dreal do that if I thought he was scum, which I'm pretty sure he's not. Of course, he can coin flip himself if he really wants to

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

If I thought he was scum I wouldn't hand him the hammer.

Unfortunately it wouldn't really matter since his vote would count equally whether he votes first or last.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

As for culted, it's a lazy anti town push bordering on scummy. The truth is you can't pull a whole lot of meaning out of my ISO. What he did is just construing what he sees to fit any agenda. He already resigned himself to "sheeping Dunn" because he's "been all over the place this game", and yet his next move is to put all of his faith in someone that's had close to zero town motivation and just gets a pass for existing.


This is okay with all of you?

I don't see it as scum-motivated

And there are only 2 scum. This is what culted what criticizing you for, ironically. You don't seem to be looking at the big picture. The scum can't be dunn, gamma, culted, and BnL, so which are they?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

But he doesn't seem to be considering the fact that some of them have to be wrong.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Zach, if you had to guess the scumteam, what would it be?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Gamma, why wouldn't he just vote you since you're an easy counterwagon?

-Inf

PEdit: you're doing p much nothing

[Infinite Justice]

-I ran up BNL
-I ran up Gamma
-I ran up Zach

You pushed those wagons, and they got run up. So ok, I'll give you some credit for that. But I don't see the actual scumhunting, the questioning, the reasoning.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

This has to be the most low-effort case I've ever seen on me.

& it's working..

Zach, if you had to guess the scumteam, what would it be?

-Inf

pick any one of my four scumreads and put two of them together

Zaaaach

If you're town, think big picture

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

What information do you suppose I have that you don't?

It's a tough job trying to find out who's not using their brain and who's taking advantage of that deficiency and blending in

Ok, I get that it's hard but I want to see at least an attempt. "Here's 4 scumreads, make of it what you will" doesn't seem like much of a town mindset to me.

Though I am being a little hypocritical because I haven't voiced any serious scumreads besides gamma, but once you do I feel like you have some responsibility to say which are stronger and speculate which might be partners.

Dunn, I know you don't like to be criticized, but newsflash: the lynch is a method of killing scum, not people you don't like.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I don't think dunn is playing to his usual meta for either alignment

-Limited

(jk it's inf)

[Infinite Justice]

Idk, she said she'd catch up by d2 though.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Well I'm the one who asked her in the first place.

But yeah it's kinda frustrating :/

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

She could be making her plan.

[Infinite Justice]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... iew=unread

Some spicy gamma meta where I caught him as scum and he played pretty much the same to here

Please let's just lynch gamma

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Oh really
How is my play similar?

It's subdued and fluffy

Also you did the same thing here I accused you of in that game which is not responding to accusations

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

That was BnL silly

And I'll do it later but you literally responded to a question in the same post with the accusation

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

No. I'm also not saying you ignored anything either. I'm saying if you were town you would've pushed and pushed until I had changed my mind or at least until we hit a wall in the argument.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

The 6 or so games I've played with town!you

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why Gamma Emerald Necessitates Rope

I doubt that gamma, I often say when you're town that you're all over the place and hyperactive. You seem to be much more subdued here, can you come up with a possible explanation?

IJ is probably town, this feels like genuine frustration.

The more I think about this post the more it bothers me, I don't know why

I feel like town would engage or something, gamma seems to be saying that just to be the first one to say it

I have issues with you just saying that now without pointing it out before. I expected if you townread zach after the fakehammer thing for you to immediately vote for who you think is scum or try to find them.

Please give me your thoughts outside IJ and myself.

they're all town

This pings me. I'm keeping my eye on dreal now.

Meanwhile Gamma is focusing on minute not-really-important stuff here, seems to be asking questions that go nowhere rather than gamesolving

Very true

tbh I think Dunn's push on Zach after the claim was p scummy
I haven't addressed you since no one really asked me to yet.

Showing more lack of initiative.

Kinda don't like how bullet just up and vanished either. :/

Throwing shade on the technical IC I see.

Speaking of throwing shade, gamma is just starting to be proactive now and making up reasons to call people scum when the pressure is on him. I don't see how town thinks that slightly calling into question the alignment of someone who isn't even conftown is scummy.

That claim seems super safe and is probably exactly what I would do as scum (if I had to make something up, which we don't know tbf)

Some spicy gamma meta where I caught him as scum and he played pretty much the same to here

Oh really
How is my play similar?

It's subdued and fluffy

Also you did the same thing here I accused you of in that game which is not responding to accusations

That votecount is beautiful but we need to lynch someone. If you're still not convinced, that's ok but we can't no lynch.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

@BnL stop getting caught up in the flavor shit and look at who's scummiest by play.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Try hard much IJ? I have wanted you lynched for your scummy posts for awhile now.

VOTE: IJ

I hate the phrase tryhard. Yes I'm trying hard. Yes I'm town. I want to win.

BnL I wouldn't worry about the zach claim thing for now.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Can we wagon saj or ari?

Sorry, not a possibility. We have just over a day left.

We're a delayed follower.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

"I'll-do-that-later town follower"

Culted, I get your problems with them, and specifically have my eye on ari. But it's just not feasible to lynch them today.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

How about this: IJ can use their powers on me to see if I really am telling the truth. They can pick any power I have claimed and I will use it.

The problem with this is that it takes until d3 to verify. What do you guys think

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Fair enough but ugh

Who else do we lynch with 1 day left, zach?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: SAJ

ehh this deadline lynch is definitely gonna end up on town but idk what else to do

I'd prefer ari if ppl want to switch to that

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

It's so dumb that we had to out so many roles

[Infinite Justice]

Ughhhh

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

SAJ, who other than me do you most want to lynch

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Meh I shouldn't buy into the AtE

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Gamma use your

rolecop

tonight.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Gamma is the one who suggested the idea. I'll follow him to conf the claim.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I remember your old sig
AtE: a shit buzzword towns use when they're frustrated

There's a reason I removed that, it was outdated.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

SAJ, who other than me do you most want to lynch

-Inf

I want Zach because of the reasons i gave beforehand. Why are you fine with a lynch on Ari? Just in case my wagon deflates.

I guess I'm fine with zach...but I'd prefer to keep him alive another day.

Ari's tone is off from usual and he hasn't done much.

I remember your old sig
AtE: a shit buzzword towns use when they're frustrated

There's a reason I removed that, it was outdated.

-Inf

How?

Town stopped throwing the term around and scum started doing it more as a response.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

VOTE: ari

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Nah, I now prefer a gamma lynch

Aaaaaaa

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why bother putting this off?

VOTE: Zackstralkita!

#YOLO

Does this really seem like something scum would do? (remember the hammer was fake)

It could be, but I'll admit it's towny.

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why culted?

I can see town or scum making that post. If they're scum it's maybe buy some towncred. The opportunity to fake hammer was there seems like a why not kinda thing regardless of alignment.

I think you could say the same thing about gamma saying there's part of his role he hasn't claimed

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

I believe BNL's claim. We should decide who he is going to shoot

No. If scum know he's hitting them, he's going to die.

Didn't you say this earlier @Gamma

Not a definite target: a pool.

What's the point

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Culted is not a viable lynch today. If you're not voting ari you better have a damn good reason to, zach

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

Why bet the game on gamma town just because of the hiding from scum thing culted?

-Inf

[Infinite Justice]

If we do a legitimate compromise, scum is gonna care more about who gets lynched than town. That's my worry.

Zach, you're not starting a new wagon now.

-Inf