Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 6.10

Lynching

With 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Anybody (0):

Not Voting (3): BlackVoid, nn30, Prism

Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-14 08:15:00)

[BlackVoid]

That's a lot of new posts. I'll get to them after this.

Day 1, Part 2 (Post-Shadow's counterclaim) - Pages 27 - 62

What I don't get about nn30 was why he was so convinced Shadow_step was scum counterclaiming. Even as a spectator before I knew Shadow was town, my initial reaction was "no way that's scum regardless of Eager's alignment." The pressing issues seems to be that Shadow waited a while before counterclaiming but didn't wait long enough and get enough reads, and also that he was scumreading someone Eager had pushed (Penguin). I see this as a fairly weak point. Shadow had to claim at some point, and scum do bus. @nn30, I'm going to read your completed scumgame but if you want to save me time, let me know if you ever bussed your partner or voted them at any point. This is at least consistent with you saying Boring was town after the LUV flip because you don't seem to believe that scum would bus. It seems like bussing is so alien to you and I want to check if that is accurate. The timing of the case on Boring was quite good and nn30 overall did push scum over the town cc's. There were two points he tied Shadow to Boring pretty blatantly and from a newb-scum, this makes sense although I do see why he would think that way as town. Boring's responses to nn30 seem fairly neutral but I'm leaning towards her talking to town based on her tone.

Prism comes off a lot worse D1. I partly want to believe his tunneling of Implosion is real because of how much bold and caps he uses (believes in his case), but the actual reasons are terrible, Implosion was obvtown, and I can't for the life understand how anyone could scumread him. The remarks to LUV seemed more like passing token remarks about a lurking buddy which he never follows up on. He also criticizes the Boring wagon (I assume this is where he started second-guessing his Boring scumread), and votes Eager as a second choice if he can't get Implosion lynched which feels like classic scum having the top lynch as a "compromise" option so he can go back to pushing Implosion the following day. He never votes Boring despite scumreading her even though he keeps implying that Implosion wasn't pushing his Boring scumread hard enough (which means he's saying that they are partners). I just find it hard to buy either his Implosion scumread or his Eager scumread. It's true that Eager did what scum would do (townread Shadow) but Prism is ignoring that if Eager was town, this is exactly how he would play the game because Shadow's move indeed made no sense as scum.

End of day one, I'm definitely leaning towards it being Prism but that's no surprise. I want to read day two very closely to see how he pushed LUV and also go back over the replace out request. Hopefully, I'll be done tonight. D1 was the bulk of this game taking up nearly half the posts. By the way, holy crap, there are so many things that clear Shadow based on how scum interacted with him and reacted to his claim. I'll go over those after I vote and figure out which of you is town.

[nn30]

@BV - I basically never had to interact with my partner in that game. I FoS them once, but that's the extent of it. Never voted, and barely conversed directly.

[Prism]

I feel like both of these are again gross mischaracterizations, as a nicer way of saying flat out false, and by default someone is doing it as town. Both my posts today and in prior days are being regularly misinterpreted or ignored. Cut it out.

I'll have more explanation later.

[nn30]

@BV - Re: Bussing seeming foreign to me: Check out my 29 and 48 from the scum PT. I discuss my feelings on bussing with my partner.

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68401&start=25

D1 of this game (podoboq's mini normal) went from October 4th - October 16th. My comments in the scum PT of my completed game occurred on October 3rd and October 19th - so approximately the same time frame.

[nn30]

I feel like both of these are again gross mischaracterizations, as a nicer way of saying flat out false, and by default someone is doing it as town. Both my posts today and in prior days are being regularly misinterpreted or ignored. Cut it out.

I'll have more explanation later.

Most of what I've done is look at LUV/Boring's interactions with you and BV. As a result, I've found individual reasons to town read BV and associative (stemming from the way Boring / LUV treated you) reasons to scum read you. Unfortunately for you, it's less about what you've done and more about what you didn't do.

These are the only things I've brought up which are your actions which be 'misinterpreted.' I'd like your responses to each of them.

Boring asks Prism for a run down of what she's done that Prism thinks is scummy in 2430. It's worth noting that Prism was voting for Boring at this time. Prism's next 2472 three 2473 posts 2545 totally fail to respond to this. Wouldn't you focus on the person you were voting for if they asked you this question if you were town?

1965 Boring asks Prism a question which Prism's next two posts blow off: 1978 & 1986. He never answers Boring.

2458 yet another Boring question addressed to Prism which he somehow misses (despite his vote being on her when she asked).

[nn30]

What I don't get about nn30 was why he was so convinced Shadow_step was scum counterclaiming.

I got high that night. Like, really high.

I got up the next day and gave up on the idea because of how much blowback I'd gotten.

Clearly high me wasn't as discerning as I'd like.

[Prism]

That one I can respond to without being at a computer-that one's not a misinterpretation, ignoring boring was entirely purposeful. I saw no reason to get into an extended dialogue with one of my scumreads-her opinion didn't matter to me. Instead I spent my time advocating her lynch to Zoronos and others and explaining it that way. Her opinion was the last one I cared about. If I had spent more time talking to her, you'd probably just label it bussing.

I didn't dodge the boring issue, I dodged boring. Nobody is going to vote boring because of what I say to boring. However, they might vote boring because of what I say to them about boring.

[Prism]

ie. That one you're actually right on but you're drawing the completely wrong conclusion. I didn't care to distance from boring, I just wanted her lynched.

@BV - Re: Bussing seeming foreign to me: Check out my 29 and 48 from the scum PT. I discuss my feelings on bussing with my partner.

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68401&start=25

D1 of this game (podoboq's mini normal) went from October 4th - October 16th. My comments in the scum PT of my completed game occurred on October 3rd and October 19th - so approximately the same time frame.

This is some next level shit, I didn't even think to compare the dates here.

Despite the mischaracterization I'm 99% sure (mildly exaggerated) it's nn town and will probably vote soon.

[BlackVoid]

I'm not. Wait until I finish reading.

[Prism]

It's a litte bit different than the game due to 3 scum vs 2 but I don't know how you can justify this scum nn as likely:

"I think bussing is overrated" "Don't start it on me but hop on if you need to" "I don't think bussing should be a go-to"

busses neopolitan Day 1

I'm biased as hell and think that my play and interactions shine through if you care to look etc etc but I don't have anything outside of the game with a big flashing sign pointing to the town signal

[nn30]

@Prism - dig up some reasons to scum read Shadow / BV. I think it's great that you town read me (I'm town wooh!) but my decision here isn't based on that. I need a way of choosing between you and BV and town reading me isn't going to cut it.

[BlackVoid]

Dude, if you are town, I don't know what to tell you. Everytime a new piece of evidence comes up, your response is "oh, this is probably scummy but ultimately I'm leaning towards nn30 being town." You just keep repeating the same line over and over. It doesn't look like you are trying to solve the game. It doesn't look like you are considering the options. It looks like you are scum that decided that nn30 probably is less likely to figure out the game than I am and decided that I was going to be your "scumread" in lylo so you can convince him to vote me. If you are actually town here, we've got two days left to figure that out.

[BlackVoid]

Don't vote me by the way. Let nn30 vote first. I want to see him make a decision and stand by it.

[nn30]

VOTE: boring

I do not get the boring townreads at all. Boring was coming off a borderline disastrous Day 1 where she got herself into a 1v1 with someone who flipped town, then had someone who hard scumread her nightkilled. It makes a lot of sense to bus Day 2. Reading boring does nothing to convince me that this isn't the case. The Day 1 pushes people are widely citing are offhanded comments here are there while she pushes someone else. Her end of day suggestion to go on LUV over eager was in #1452, when the vote was 5 eager 3 boring with Eager yet to vote. It was already locked between her and Eager and whether or not she'd lose seemed up in the air. A lot of these newfound townreads on boring are just reflexive reactions to the LUV flip, and at least one of them is coming from scum. I still think Maria dying wasn't a coincidence.

Then there's this:

I was expecting you to be dead today too, since going for Gamma would be a huge gamble, but here we are. I agree that it would have been unhelpful to block Gamma on his last productive night. I'm thinking that roleblocker is more likely, by the way.

It's unhelpful to block Gamma last night, and thus Zoronos isn't going to do it. She acknowledges this. If a random town knows it scum knows it. Why did she expect a Gamma death?

It doesn't help that her posts have come off the wrong way to me all game as that just makes me more prone to confirmation bias.

My other top votes for today so far would be Grendel and PP, still need to reread Dierfire. If boring turns out to be town then I'm pretty lost.

I had this weird feeling creeping up on me yesterday that Prisum has been trying to pocket me this whole game.

But has made zero attempts at white knighting since I've come under fire. So I guess I was wrong?

In past days I've said virtually nothing about your alignment, the only times I did were that I liked your RVS questions and that I liked one specific post Day 2. The only reason I've ever given to townread you is based off Maria's death. In contrast, I've also pointed out that certain posts of yours were bad, and some of them worse yet replying to me without actually reading the original post (which suggests you weren't interested in them to begin with). You've been basically in the middle to bottom half of the game, and I've made it explicit that I intend to vote you today if I can't get boring. If boring is town, you are almost certainly scum by PoE. If boring is scum, you are still a very likely candidate for the partner.

You didn't even acknowledge repeated announcements for you as a potential alternative lynch, both today and yesterday. I'm not just not whiteknighting you, I'm straight up more on the offense. Between this and 2-3 other posts that appear unconcerned as to what I'm actually thinking, and boring pushing a PP lynch, you've definitely earned the second spot. I'll ISO you sometime tomorrow night.

p-edit - not even how early she wanted LUV on day one

I think it means nothing when it was halfhearted at best up until Day 2.

Boring (wanted LUV's booty for two days)

I really, really don't feel like this is the case. When was the last time you ISO'd it? I see no realistic pushing on LUV until boring was a 50/50 for the lynch.

In both these arguments, you're suggesting that I've completely changed my scum-play (and possibly suffered brain damage in the interim). Hard bussing from Day 1 is idiotic. Especially when there are so many bad town running around to provide easy counter wagons. So is killing the person most vocal against you, by the way. Not to mention it being crazy for a scum team to allow that kind of reckless killing pattern.

1. You barely went after LUV Day 1 despite mentioning him repeatedly 2. No, it's not.

Okay, assuming that was a typo, and not a senior moment, there's a difference between suspecting and knowing. There's no way that scum would risk a no-kill night. Unless the scum team can't math.

Actually, the math shows they can afford one no death without giving town an extra mislynch. It's not about "suspecting" there was a roleblocker either-you acknowledged in the post that it's stupid to jail Gamma but were apparently surprised he died.

Of course, your assumption that I'm scum seems to be based on the belief that I'm stupid, so maybe simple arithmetic is beyond me.

Can you quote examples of me basing my belief on you being scum as the belief that you're stupid? I've suggested nothing of the sort. This just entire post just reads as a poor ad hom defense more than anything else.

I find scum tend to mark their scum buddies as 'neutral' and will constantly express mild to moderate suspicion on them *while not pushing them*. That is classic distancing. "Yeah A is scummy but let's all vote B" is scum play 101. So those things you flag as 'breadcrumbs' to me are potential setups to join the bus in case LUV goes down. Which is basically what happened yesterday. Those were specifically the things that led me to conclude he might be scum with LUV.

What you are describing is what boring did Day 1 with LUV.

Prism (he intentionally draws attention to himself for people to state reads on him as scum wouldn't do).

What's your basis for this? I do it because my reads are a lot more accurate when gained through 1 on 1 interaction, but this is precisely the thing you want to be said about you as mafia and I play as such accordingly. I don't mean to be arrogant but as scum I've got the behavioral quirks down pat. If you're going to townread me, it should be more on the basis of my votes and my reasoning/timing, and it should be done sooner rather than later. I think my reads on implosion prior to his confirmed status and now boring are the best chances to evaluate that.

@Prism - check out newbie 1742. BV is scum. On D3 (LyLo) he said the phrase: "I'm going to have to look over interactions" (332) and "You're kidding, right?" (363). In this LyLo he's done the same (will re-read) and said, to you, you're kidding right? (3189).

What do you make of this?

Scum game BV ISO: viewtopic.php?p=8385736#p8385736

[nn30]

@Prism - viewtopic.php?f=94&t=68443&start=25

Check out post 41 from the mafia topic. His plan for LyLo is to push the opportunistic angle on a townie.

3137 - He does the very same thing with me.

[nn30]

Quotes in 3264 weren't meant to be there.

[nn30]

Alright, nn's play today feeling town:

I think it's pretty much entirely encapsulated here. That post gives me two reasons to think nn is town:

-the indignance with which he describes his play as town. This is more of a gut thing, it isn't going to be rigorously justifiable. It does go beyond simply indignance; it feels to me like nn is genuinely trying to work with people to solve the game. His insistence that the people pushing him give cases, his rhetoric towards Zoronos, and so on.

-his throwing townreads out left and right. If he's scum then the way that he went into today is painting himself into a corner, immediately striking out both pp and boring as likely directions for him to push in going forward. Granted, he did flip on boring now, but in a reasonable way in response to new information which him as scum wouldn't have known would be guaranteed to happen. To generalize he is playing this day very off-the-cuff, throwing reads out and laying his opinions bare for everyone to investigate. Saying he doesn't want to vote Grendel because he's just a counterwagon, then giving real reasons to vote him 7 minutes later. And then saying he got more town pings from Grendel 40 minutes after that. He's responsive. He doesn't have a plan. His play just doesn't feel like scum who's trying to get a person in particular lynched, or avoid lynching anyone else in particular, or try to avoid being lynched himself; his play is just too much a combination of putting himself out there and not having a plan behind it to be scum, I think.

So, I read the posts you are pointing out. Obviously I need to re-read them in context before I can comment on them but he has a completed game as mafia so I'm going to check whether these are not just all playstyle-indicative.

I don't think you ever commented on this BV.

[BlackVoid]

@nn30, you are basically pushing both of us at the same time. Who do you scumread? If you had finished reading, you should be able to make a decision. It's one thing to argue that you are town, it's quite another to argue that both of us are scum.

[BlackVoid]

In one word, who do you suspect?

[nn30]

You.

[BlackVoid]

So, what's all of the last page about?

[nn30]

I'm still trying to solve the game.

I suspect both of you.

I just suspect you more.

[nn30]

All right Prism, last thing -

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67645&start=5600

He subs into a game and starts talking with townies, asking questions, and trying to solve things.

He subbed into this game and just started telling us what he thought about the game.

Totally different behavior.

Scum motivated?

[BlackVoid]

I'm just going to address the most recent posts once I get there. Might as well do this linearly. With day two, I finished roughly three-fourths of the game page-wise anyways.

Day 2 - Pages 63 - 88

1664 - This is Prism's first content post of the day ending with an LUV vote. What's notable is that Boring also voted LUV on D2 so it could be a co-ordinated bus that both competent members of the scumteam are doing. But he has LUV as a top scumread and Boring as a secondary one. Why join the LUV wagon led by Boring though? If who is on the wagon puts you off from joining it (see D1), Boring being on the LUV wagon should be cause to second-guess it.

1703 - nn30 hedges on LUV trying to decide if it's scum or bad town. In fact, Prism was apparently so town that LUV's suspicion of Prism is what's causing this.

1749 - Gamma becomes nn30's strongest scumread. What I don't get is how you suddenly forgot about the massive Boring case you made yesterday especially given that the counterwagon flipped town. That should have re-iterated your scumread of Boring. But this seems to be a recurring theme where you make up a scumread, and then push somewhere else, and you are constantly changing your opinions. At least, that's consistent all the way through.

1834 - This is very hypocritical considering your play this game and how easily you forget previous reads and general forgetful nature.

1848 - This VC points towards Prism-town since I doubt both scum would be bussing here while there's a town counterwagon.

1933 - I like nearly everything about this post. The suspicion of both Boring and LUV as well how thorough he's double-checking that Implosion clear. I didn't like the digs at Implosion's theory post but that's probably not alignment-indicative.

1971 - nn30's readslist also contains both flipped scum in his scumpile. It's a believable list as town. As scum, he would have to be bussing.

2137 - This is a really good post because lynching Boring at that point would have been incredibly disadvantageous for scum. The best move is to double down and push LUV and get the cred for bussing so both Boring and LUV are semi-clear and can dominate the town. I suppose he could have specifically be laying down false interactions and he does pride himself on his scumgame but overall, it comes across as town. Now, I just wonder why Boring wasn't lynched after LUV. Need to see how Prism's D3 plays out. I guess he could be one of those ultra-bussers but if he is, he's a lot smarter than your typical run-of-the-mill scum who bus poorly.

So, overall Prism comes off way better than nn30 on D2. He not only pushed LUV's lynch but also had Boring as a backup. nn30 forgot about his D1 Boring read for the most part, didn't engage LUV or take stances on him, and mostly pushed players that we now know to be town. The one thing that's bugging me though is I'm wondering if the bus on LUV was co-ordinated by Boring and Prism. It just seems weird that Boring decided to bus the hell out of LUV and nn30 ignored that wagon forming and looked elsewhere. I wish I had Prism meta to read. @Prism - can you link me to your previous games offsite?