Shadow_step Mini Normal Review

[mhsmith0]

Villagery pop in

Off the cuff, 5 town prs vs three wolf prs seems scum sided by MS norms unless town prs are strong (and they're not in this case at current glance).

[mhsmith0]

I tend to prefer closer to vanilla games myself, fwiw. I'll +1 to Mastin here; a bunch of strong scum roles means that you need to have a bunch of strong town roles, and then you basically get a game that's really heavy on PR reliance and night actions, which gives people something to do but I think gets away from the typical spirit of "normal" games.

I might also suggest an encryptor as a mafia PR if you don't mind a passive pr, but that's a YMMV thing.

Wrt town roles, I'd actually suggest full neighborizer instead of 2-shot masonizer; neighborizer is a less swingy role (won't fail or die if targeting scum, won't suddenly crate multiple confirmed town if it succeeds) that demands better play from the people in the hood instead of easier mech clears.

[mhsmith0]

So I think it's fine to have more town PR's that are generally crappy PR's, but if you do that scum should be close to vanilla. More scum power = more town power.

Can you restate what your currently intended town vs scum setup currently is? I want to make sure I'm on the same page.

[mhsmith0]

six town PR's too many. five at most. i do like the scum neighborizer concept though. maybe make it even night watcher and kill the voyeur? even night watcher means that it's a slot that has to stay under the radar for two nights otherwise can't help, and it's fairly likely that he'll only get one use anyway. if even night watcher is able to survive for two useful peeks that's just really good play.

maybe do odd night rolestopper / even night neighborizer? I'm not super familiar with motivator and balancing that one; what do you think mastin?

[mhsmith0]

so are you down to five town pr's? I think that's basically the max that's considered normal.

[mhsmith0]

1-shot vig not necessarily bad by itself, but it's in many cases negative EV (since it takes away a mislynch if it misses), so would need to be carefully balanced against the rest of the setup.

[mhsmith0]

and i do really like the scum neighborizer (presuming ok with normal), an unusual role that makes game more interesting

[mhsmith0]

[mhsmith0]

getting a bit tired, will try and pick back up tomorrow. am alive in 5 games currently (4 on MS) including a SUPER high intensity one on POG. plus modding three on MS.

[mhsmith0]

oh wait, i'm only alive in three on MS. That's MUCH more reasonable

[mhsmith0]

ah, sorry

[mhsmith0]

Sorry for slanking last couple days. Will get back on this tonight or tomorow morning.

[mhsmith0]

So my understanding is current setup is:

Encryptor
1/2-x Rolecop
Odd-night Neighborizer

vs.

Vanilla Cop
2-x Watcher
Even-night Rolestopper
Day 1 IC
Fruit Vendor
VT x 5

Given that setup:

1) I might swing the role cop to an even night role cop. It adds realistic odds of the rolestopper messing with it, in a way that isn't super likely for scum to have an immediate recognition of.

2) Town's power here is more in sheer numbers than it is utility of PR's. The vanilla cop is kind of interesting given a full mafia PR set; its utility I think would come wrt claims and verification of VT claims, as opposed to aggressively finding scum. The big town power use comes from the watcher, and I'm somewhat inclined to suggest making it either a full watcher (probably too much) or perhaps just a odd night watcher (so that the rolestopper can't interfere with it).

The downside of making watcher odd night is that it makes the odd night neighborizer stand out setup spec wise (one town/scum odd night, one town/scum even night).

So actually I guess I'm ok with 2x watcher. IC+watcher is a bit cheap of a way to catch scum, but that's why you don't just lazily shoot the IC.

So off the cuff I think I'm ok with (this or something close to it):

Encryptor
Even night Rolecop
Odd-night Neighborizer

vs.

Vanilla Cop
2-x Watcher
Even-night Rolestopper
Day 1 IC
Fruit Vendor
VT x 5

MAYBE jack up the watcher to 3x instead of 2x if town needs more power, though frankly I'd be somewhat surprised to see the watcher last that long.

Also, does day 1 IC get announced at game start? Or is that something which is announced at twilight if the IC hasn't already outed via mod PM?

[mhsmith0]

Actually if role cop is just 1x rolecop that's fine too. But I think 2x role cop is too much.

I'm also worried that we're giving town too little power; fruit vendor especially is pretty much useless in a game where scum can use their power and kill at the same time, and there's no actual tracker to show that the FV only went to one person.

Here's the history that I've found of 5 town PR mini normal setups

Spoiler: 5 town PR setups

1457
BG, Reporter, 1-shot macho cop, doctor, even night hider
vs
Roleblocker, Goon, Goon
Mafia wins with 2 alive

1460
BG, Neighbor, Neighbor, Odd-night cop, Miller JOAT
vs
2-shot roleblocker, neighbor, goon
Mafia wins with 1 alive

1481
JK, Tracker, Neighbor, Neighbor, Even night vig
vs
Roleblocker, Encryptor, Goon
Town wins

1521
1-shot BP, Compulsive Vig, Even night tracker, mason, mason
vs
Role Cop, Godfather, Goon
Mafia wins with 2 alive

1543
Doc, Even night compulsive vig, neighbor, neighbor, neighbor
vs
JOAT, nurse, traitor
Mafia wins with 1 alive (traitor)

1589
Cop, Neighbor, Neighbor, Jailkeeper, 1-shot Dayvig
vs
Rolecop, goon, goon
Mafia wins with 1 alive

1666
Tracker, 1-shot BP, Cop, 1-shot Vig Neighbor, Neighbor
vs
Roleblocker, Neighbor, Godfather
Mafia wins with 2 alive

1682
Friendly Neighbor, Voyeur, Motion Detector, Doctor, 2-shot Tracker
vs
Rolestopper, Doctor Enabler, Vanilla Cop
Mafia wins with 1 alive

1749
Odd-night cop, 1-shot BP BG, Party Animal, 1-shot Vig, Miller
vs
Ascetic, Motion Detector, Goon
Mafia wins with 1 alive

Obviously none of these setups are exactly what you've done (lack of essentially useless neighbor or bodyguard town PRs is notable, but there also aren't any cops, doctors, or vigs)... but the scum teams have pretty consistently crushed these kinds of setups. Given that you haven't given out a full roleblocker, role cop or other super useful scum power I think there's sufficiently less scum power here vs there that I think it should be more balanced. But I think a lot is going to depend on whether the scum team gets caught binking the IC night 1, and that may create some angst among whichever team gets the bad end of that swing.

Since FV isn't actually doing anything, what do you think of converting it to a 1-shot doctor, giving you:

Encryptor
1x rolecop
Odd-night Neighborizer

vs.

Vanilla Cop
2-shot Watcher
Even-night Rolestopper
Day 1 IC
1-shot doctor
VT x 5

That increases the chance of the watcher seeing the doctor visit the IC for the attempted save (so town is less screwed if scum shoot in a random spot and avoid the trap), and makes it a bit more plausible that town can get itself two prevented night kills (since otherwise the even night rolestopper is pretty limited utility, as only stopping one night kill isn't as strong as people think, especially given that there really aren't any town roles that are going to become super strong endgame and that NEED to be protected long term)

[mhsmith0]

Mafia
1 shot Strongman
Joat[Rolecop + RB]
Neighboriser odd night

Town
Vanilla cop
2 shot watcher
Rolestopper even night
1 shot Friendly Neighbor(can add 1 shot BP to this for better balance)
I'd prefer Vote thief > over FV
5 VTs

Given the "scum can use role power and kill" I'd say FV is almost entirely useless and should be replaced by something actually helpful. Vote thief is interesting potentially; I'm not an expert on what you're allowed to do wrt roles that aren't even discussed on white/black list, so I'll defer to the other reviewers on that point. You could probably also turn it into a hider or weak visitor, which is a fun role that can be potentially very useful in the right hands, but is definitely swingy and can screw town in the hands of a bad player (cue my bragging for GOAT'ing as odd night weak doctor in 1844 )

Scum power seems overall strong; the neighborizer may or may not have much utility, but the 1-shot strongman and rb/rc JOAT are substantial power against a town that actually doesn't have all that much power (and most of its power is x-shot, with the shots likely to be used relatively early on). I'm somewhat inclined to suggest that scum gets 1-shot RB, 1-shot RC, and junk the strongman altogether, given how limited town's ability to prevent kills is anyway (town successfully stopping two night kills in this setup would basically be GOAT play by the rolestopper, and scum should have limited ability to prevent that from happening IMO).

[mhsmith0]

in that case I'd say nerf the JOAT into just a 1-shot role cop. Right now town's primary power is in the sheer number of named roles, as opposed to those roles being especially important (barring the lol wolves getting their hands caught in the IC cookie jar night 1 scenario).

Notably:

1) Town power as given almost certainly cannot stop two night kills, which means that the utility of stopping just one night kill is relatively low. Even the "lol rolestopper and fuck you scum" scenario basically just delays the death (and setup WIFOMs scum a bit), especially since basically zero of the town PRs have full utility through end game. Like, vanilla cop is the main investigative power, and it's medium utility since it can't full clear anyone (since it doens't know that there aren't any goons), rolestopper can't self-target, two other roles are x-shot, and the fifth role is TBD.

2) wrt investigative power, barring the "lol got caught with your hands in the IC cookie jar" N1 outcome (which can happen, including in one game where a freaking JANITOR got caught binking the IC by a watcher, which is about as lol wolves as you can ever get with night actions), town really doesn't have a tremendous amount of power here (and the rolestopper can obviously screw with investigative results too). Vanilla cop is something but limited, ditto friendly neighbor, watcher is 2-shot and swingy based on whether wolves take the TOO obvious N1 shot, and presumably role #5 won't be awesome (though obviously that's still up for discussion). I look at town's investigative power, especially with the chance rolestopper will screw with it, and I don't really see why the mafia particularly needs a roleblocker counter to town PR.

[mhsmith0]

I'm actually curious what the other two reviewers have to say at this point. They may well disagree with my take, but having just done a fair amount of data analysis on the subject, I'd say that there is a pretty substantial and consistent bias in terms of games with high numbers of town roles swinging to scum a LOT.

I might actually say keeping the RB on the JOAT is ok if you make the fifth town PR something pretty useful. Maybe a desperado like your original plan, for instance.

Mafia
1 shot Strongman
Joat[Rolecop + RB]
Neighboriser odd night

Town
Vanilla cop
2 shot watcher
Rolestopper even night
1 shot Friendly Neighbor
Desperado
5 VTs

I THINK that's relatively closer to being balanced, though again this is a sufficiently role-heavy game that I'm very curious what the more experienced reviewers have to say.

[mhsmith0]

Possibly even the desperado becomes 1-shot, as I'm 100% not experienced with balancing that role.

[mhsmith0]

lol true... but the question is what if he actually hits mafia

[mhsmith0]

eh, I pretty much loathe 2-shot vigs when scum have legit kill stopping power (tho BP not as bad as doc obviously). was a huge design flaw in the game we played together. I kinda want to see what the group thinks of

Mafia
1 shot Strongman
Joat[Rolecop + RB]
Neighboriser odd night

Town
Vanilla cop
2 shot watcher
Rolestopper even night
1 shot Friendly Neighbor
Desperado
5 VTs

I feel like that ought to be getting close.

[mhsmith0]

seraph knights?

[mhsmith0]

oh i see
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Seraph_Knight

even there i really don't like it. It drastically nerfs both a vig and gs, and requires (IMO) substantial tinkering to get a game where it doesn't completely blow the structure and scum-side it. If you're interested in that kind of structure we can talk, but I suspect it'd be a lot of back and forth in order to get something reasonable that the whole group can live with.

[mhsmith0]

lol sure, but i'd rather run with something overall similar to what we've already discussed as opposed to a major revision.

[mhsmith0]

Lol wait I just noticed that you reviewed walking dead mafia. How did you allow scum to have a doc when town had odd night GS and even night vig.

Because back then I was young and naive

I think if I could go back I might question that, although mechanically it's not as problematic mainly because the game was larger, so the odds of the doctor interfering with either GS or vig was lower (plus neither was x shot, so they could theoretically just keep going instead of being only named townies after like day 3). In a smaller game it's harder because of how strong that role is; it's not necessarily disqualifying, but I think you need to do a careful job of thinking through how roles interact in relatively small games, where in larger games there's enough noise and swing that specific role interactions are likely to be less critical.

[mhsmith0]

I'm actually shocked by just how horrible town win rates in mini normals have been.

36-69, 34% in 10v3 mini normals from 1401 through 1832 (excluding a few where I didn't have the data to see what the roles were due to mods not showing the role flips on OP and games not getting archived accordingly)

That record is... utterly horrific. Like, my goodness.

[mhsmith0]

I wanna say opens are ballpark 50% town (excepting multi ball), I think newbies are like 45% town. Dunno about micros or various theme boards. I think part of the issue is mini normals are newbie heavy so you get generally mediocre to poor play, and that favors the wolves. Probably the closed nature of the setup lets the wolves get away with fake-claiming more than on some other boards, but I can't swear to that. I know sonia made a brutal fake-claim of cop in LYLO and somehow people believed her in the first mini normal I modded. lol village itt

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, If scum have three PRs, town needs a lot of power. I'm out today, will re-look tomorow.

[mhsmith0]

I would greatly prefer the setup we were discussing in 79 to this latest revision.

I think that the 2-shot weak visitor is a NU role that in the right hands would be ok, but is likelier to just screw up town. Would also greatly prefer desperado to voyeur, as desperado is pretty useful and voyeur is a crappy role.

[mhsmith0]

I'm curious what minor tweaks Nexus was thinking about, and I'm not sure where Mastin is, but it strikes me as pretty close to balanced. A lot depends on the PRs (on both sides) using powers effectively (which means it's more night-heavy than day-heavy), but subject to that restraint, I'm inclined to think it's around balanced.

[mhsmith0]

I think that's also about good. wrt the desperado, I think it makes sense to make it like an even day desperado (noting that it can only be used once per day), so you can't get spammed shots every day at scum, and it can't be used D1, preventing:

D1 desperado shoots scum
N1 shot at desperado who gets watched
D2 easy desperado shot and maybe a scum lynch

Normally I dislike x-shot roles (the stats for town success given 1 or 2 shot town roles are consistently poor), but I think all of these roles work reasonably well together, with the x-shot on the watcher/gunsmith preventing them from (barring really good early play) dominating the game.

[mhsmith0]

ok 1 shot non-D1 is also fine. i just wanted to make sure it wasn't going to be some kind of potentially super cheap "win the game all by yourself" type thing.

[mhsmith0]

Holiday weekend. Wrt setup, you've kind of been bouncing around bwteeen different ideas. Of the five or so ones you've put up lately, what is the one you like the most? I'd rather go with what you want as a template and work from there with tweaks than just keep bouncing around. For instance, I think you wanted five town PRs and three scum PRs? Is that still the case?

[mhsmith0]

Yes ascetic is normal for any alignment.

[mhsmith0]

@shadow: my sense was you wanted a 5 town pr, 3 scum pr game. Is this correct? Or is 96 what you actually want, with whatever additionally needed modification?

[mhsmith0]

@mastin2: re: 109, mafia neighborizer is WAY stronger than I think you think

Spoiler: mini normal games with mafia neighbor or neighborizer

all games 10/3 unless otherwise noted, non-neighbor PRs are listed
1460 mafia neighbor, mafia win (BG, odd cop, miller JOAT vs 2-shot RB)
1462 mafia neighbor, mafia win (2x masons, 1 neighborizer-JK)
1463 mafia neighborizer, mafia win (gunsmith, BG, even vig)
1618 mafia neighbor, mafia win 10/2/1 (RB, even rolecop, neighborizer, sunsmith, commuter vs odd hider, SK)
1666 mafia neighbor, mafia win (tracker, 1-shot BP, cop, 1-shot vig vs RB, godfather)
1685 mafia neighbor, mafia win (IC, vengeful, JK vs encryptor)
1687 mafia neighborizer, OTHER mafia win 9/2/2 (neighborizer shot N1)
1733 mafia neighborizer, mafia win (commuter, cop, IC, backup vs godfather)

eight games and the only one where a mafia neighbor or neighborizer failed to win was a 9/2/2 when the other mafia shot him N1. This suggests that mafia neighborizer is an incredibly strong role, and/or that towns are incredibly weak against it.

wrt the potentially cheap combo, that would require:

1) gunsmith gets a guilty (as opposed to hitting the v cop or the desperado)
2) scum fail to kill gs OR rolestopper OR watcher


And the thing is, town's power is pretty limited and heavy on early game stuff (watcher/GS are both 2-shot, desperado is 1-shot), the only real mid/late game power is the even night rolestopper and the vanilla cop, neither of which are really THAT useful (rolestopper might stop 1 kill but kills aren't tracked, and would cancel out watcher if that happened anyway, and the odds of RS stopping 2 kills to buy another ML are pretty remote).

So I guess if you're worried about the gunsmith leading to a nasty run, I'm probably ok with turning the goon into a 1-shot doctor, solely as a counter to the GS, although in that case I'd say make the GS 3-shot instead of 2, or maybe odd night, since we'd be notably nerfing GS functionality.

[mhsmith0]

How about:

Mafia

Odd night roleblocker
Goon
JOAT (role cop+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
2 shot GS

5 VT

[mhsmith0]

Actually:

Mafia

Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
3 shot GS

5 VT

Basically mastin and I substantially disagree on the power of the neighborizer, but we all agree roleblocker is really strong, and it mechanically makes the "gotcha" scenario materially less likely for scum. I'm also willing to give the mafia like a 1-shot doctor instead of the goon SOLELY as a counter to the gunsmith if it's needed for balance I guess.

[mhsmith0]

Jeez i suck at this

Actually:

Mafia

Odd night roleblocker
Goon
JOAT (role cop+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
1-shot Desperado
3 shot GS

5 VT

@shadow, mastin, CES: thoughts on that proposed setup? obviously town prs COULD steamroll, but a roleblocker has realistic chances of shutting town power down, and I'd think that any game with a roleblocker SHOULD have potential "town can crush" outcomes if the rb dies early or is ineffective (or town should have a bunch of passive roles that the RB can't stop, bp IC masons etc)

[mhsmith0]

Mafia
Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town
2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
1-shot Desperado (I would suggest you make this clear in role PM and in role title)
1-shot BP

Fine I guess. It'll probably be super swingy based on whether the watcher gets anything useful and/or whether desperado shot hits scum on D1 (presuming they shoot then), but basically any setup with this many PRs is gonna hit that kind of issue. Probably scum-sided but reasonably in range with the standard "town gets five PRs" type mini normal. Also it makes it more plausible that town will stop two kills with the BP and rolestopper, although I'd PROBABLY say that the rolestopper should be odd night instead of even night to give town just a little bit more kill stopping power.

[mhsmith0]

Actually I kinda like rolestopper being same night as neighborizer. Really helps nerf that role and create WIFOM against the mafia, since "my target got rolestopped" is super unlikely to be the first thing that comes to mind.

[mhsmith0]

I'd prefer rolestopper as odd instead of even but will sign off on even. I think you guys are under-estimating the power of scum neighborizer, not in terms of setup spec but in terms of ability to manipulate town in the PT, but I guess we'll see.

[mhsmith0]

1shot bp for last town pr works fine for me.

Want to hear what other reviewers hvwe to say.

[mhsmith0]

In post 103, Shadow_step wrote:
Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
one shot bp
5 VT

I'd approve of the above (note:mafia JOAT pm says goon)

[mhsmith0]

I guess I need to know where Mastin and CES are in terms of setup at this point. I don't think it's productive to be fine tuning w shadow unless the other two are broadly ok with the setup.

[mhsmith0]

Still swingy to a point beyond what I prefer.
But passable, once I see final role PMs. Scum's PRs don't give them a huge advantage, town's PRs give them decent power which isn't overwhelming and is gated. It might play out as a scum win (that would be my prediction, since it depends on town player skill to use those roles well, and...weeeeelllllllll......), but at least in theory, I believe it is balanced.

Smart town play gives them a very solid chance at winning

; smart scum play gives them a solid chance at winning.

Translation: scum sweep incoming

Fwiw, high # of pr games aren't really my thing, but subject to that (and I do think that it's good to give designers latitude on the type of game they run), I think we've hit reasonable balance. Probably either side will bitch if they lose, but that's pretty normal IMO.

[mhsmith0]

(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)

Well said IMO. That kind of structure falls within my concept of balance. It's setup so better team should win.

[mhsmith0]

I thinkthe question is whether it's ok for one role to be nonstandard AND have nonstandard modifiers (like a super graylist role) wrt normal guidelines. I admit to not being an expert on that front so can't really answer.

[mhsmith0]

I think we should let this game marinate a few more months

[mhsmith0]

Actual notes:

1) How does the desperado active his action? HURT: PLAYER? A PM to the mod? Something else? I'd actually explicitly lay out mechanically how it's supposed to work ahead of time (especially whether it's something he posts publicly to activate or not)

2) 1-shot BP: I don't know that it matters given lack of vig, but I think it's usually worded that the first kill attempt fials (i.e. if scum and vig target bp, bp dies). Nitpick and not vital, but I think I'd prefer the other way to be safe

3) Vanilla cop: Please clarify in role PM that it's at night (super nitpick there fwiw.. but you may get a total newb randing it)

4) Win con nitpick: what happens if parity is reached after night but the desperado still has his shot left? Like, that clearly should never happen, but should we worry about if it does? Because technically, that doens't lock in a scum win since desperado could still shoot during the day and turn the game around.

5) Maybe link the site rules in your OP general rules #1 post, just in case you have total newbs signing up?

Those are mainly nitpicks though, I think it's good to go into signups, since either way those are easy to resolve.

[mhsmith0]

k. i'd still say it's important to clarify how the desperado power activates, and to make sure little things like night roles are noted as being night roles for potential newbs, are taken care of.

[mhsmith0]

since there's no vig or double kill power it doesn't really matter i guess, as long as someone else can verify that's acceptably normal role pm language

[mhsmith0]

Sorry imthoug tint was implied that I approved.

In signup, please also note that fay phases are 10 days just so people are aware.

[mhsmith0]

[mhsmith0]

Why is Desperado thinking that if he shoots a town BP, the BP loses their vest?
The role PM we approved had it so that if he shot town, he died, and if he shot mafia, they died.
The implication there is that if he shoots mafia, the shot goes through; if he shoots town, the shot doesn't and he dies instead.
(Also lol at Desperado getting the role of...Desperado.)

Yeah that was awesome