Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3275  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:31 pm

Well, two-thirds of the game.

Also, it would really help if both of you engage my posts in depth.

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Post Post #3276  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:38 pm

Official Vote Count 6.11
LynchingWith 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Anybody (0):

Not Voting (3): BlackVoid, nn30, Prism


Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-14 08:15:00)
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

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Post Post #3277  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:59 pm

In post 2276, Prism wrote:If you want me to describe my own scum meta, I can do so on request, but I suspect it will not be helpful due to the credibility issue.

I'd like this actually.

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Post Post #3278  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:19 pm

In post 3275, BlackVoid wrote:Also, it would really help if both of you engage my posts in depth.


I'd like you to engage mine as well.

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Post Post #3279  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:20 pm

Like I said, I will when I get to it. I'm reading the game from start to end and am currently on page 92. When I get to D6, I'll start responding to stuff I didn't before. Feel free to respond to my walls though.

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Post Post #3280  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Will do.

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Post Post #3281  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:18 pm

Pages 89 - 116 (D3 and the beginning of D4 to the point of my replace-in)

- So, this is where nn30 retracts his Boring scumread. I find it null.

- Prism pushes on. This would have been a really risky double bus following a bus on LUV. I get now what you mean when you say that your play spoke for itself. Still curious how Boring wasn't lynched that day. Need to check what happened later on.

- nn30's reaction here is how I expect scum to react. Saying that Boring's bus on LUV made her town.

- Leaning towards this not being a scum to scum interaction since Boring seems so hesitant and polite but that's just a gut feel.

- This is a pretty weak reason to suspect Grendel and came right when Grendel suggested that he might be paranoid of Prism so it reads to me as opportunistic. Is Prism bussing here or is nn30 bussing? Someone has to be.

- This is the crucial unvote from nn30. It looks like he's saw the suspicion Grendel had from Prism and is encouraging Prism and Implosion to look to him as an alternative to Boring.

- I really like this post from nn30 because it seems like he's listening to people about Boring which is consistent with what he did when I pushed Boring.

- Interesting thing from this VC though is that everytime nn30 voted Boring, it's always when a wagon has formed on her. He's never the driving force behind a Boring lynch.

- Boring is at L-1 here. Need to see how the wagon collapsed after this VC.

- This is a slight towntell since he was arguing against a Boring townflip condemning him. But I also think that if he truly didn't know Boring's alignment, he'd be more wary about Penguin trying to set up lynches. In my experience, town are extremely paranoid about people who try to set them up to be lynched after someone else flips town.

- This is a good post as well and doesn't feel like Prism has inside information about Boring. I'm wondering though how he's so wrong on nn30 given his scumhunting skills so far seemed to be pretty good (he was scumreading both Boring and LUV D2 and D3). The Implosion push was terrible though and doesn't match with the competence he displayed on these two reads.

- On the other hand, playing into the "either Prism or Boring" mentality seems more likely to come from scum.

- I think this points against Prism being scum. Boring is trying to persuade him to vote Penguin.

- This is an interesting post. Prism's switch from Boring to Grendel here making him the top wagon as opposed to her has tons of scum motivation. I could see it from town because some of the reasons he gave are not bad but as far as purely scum-motivated posts go, this one is up there. I think it's somewhat odd that he reads Boring as town now but says that Grendel's hesitance to vote her makes her scum which is pretty classic tie-scum-to-townie.

- This Prism post is deadly risky because he suggests that Implosion singularly pick the day's lynch. Implosion has been pretty clear that he wanted Boring so it seems obvious that Boring is who he would push. He also lays down some plans for what Zoronos should do which I think would be shooting himself in the foot if he was mafia. I'm just not sure where his skill level is at and what are the kinds of things he could fake.

- This is really weak. NN30 hasn't been overwhelmingly town in this game. To be fair, I skimmed some of his posts. Making over 500 posts is overkill and I can't keep track of any of his thoughts or opinions which change on a dime. He's all over the place. I fail to see how you can make any sense of his posting. To call him a god or town is really a stretch.

- This post is terrible. I think someone clearly as competent as Prism would see why Grendel was town because his posting really seemed like town at the last minute getting their reads together so I don't like it.

- I really don't get this emphasis on trying to get people to townread him for good reasons. It's a bizarre thing to focus on. If someone is townreading you for bad reasons, then you probe those reasons to figure out their alignment. Who cares if town is townreading you for bad reasons? All that matters is that they are right.

- Slight towntell to agree with Boring here and say that Shadow was likely scum. It would be odd for scum to be the only ones pushing Shadow.

- This is a really weird post. D3, nn30 was pushing Boring but then switches over and says he's not convinced Boring is scum. Seriously, all your stance changes are giving me whiplash.



So, this could honestly go either way. I'm right at the point where I replaced in. I'm going to take a break and come back and analyze Prism's replace-out request and continue re-reading stuff that happened while I was here.

@Prism - Here's what I really need you to go a LOT in-depth on:

1. Explain to me why you are townreading nn30 as hard as you were at the point you submitted your replace out request. You called him god-level if he was scum and it seemed to me like he was the one townread you were going to take to the bank. I found this an odd choice really. Either you are scum or wrong and I want to figure out which it is.

2. Would you have posted a replace out request at that point if you were scum? This is important because you keep arguing that the replace-out request shouldn't be the reason for a townread on you. Do you really think it's not alignment indicative? Why exactly did you want to replace out. What post of Shadow's triggered this?

Other than that, engaging with what I posted seems like a good idea but those are the most pressing questions I want answered. nn30 is batshit crazy and I don't know if I'll be able to get a confident read there. I need a read on you to be my most solid one. Although I will read nn30's three completed games before I continue on with this game since my replace in and get to responding to all of the D6 stuff.

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Post Post #3282  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:41 pm

@BV - Did you read the completed scum game / scum PT? The scum PT should show my feelings toward bussing fairly transparently. I'd like to know what this pings you as.

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Post Post #3283  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:43 pm

Also, take a look at how I treated Dominator / Iron Stove in Art Mafia. There's a lot of 'batshit crazy' going on there as well.

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Post Post #3284  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:19 pm

All quotes in this post are from BV. Spoiler tag for length.

Spoiler:
In post 3274, BlackVoid wrote:What's notable is that Boring also voted LUV on D2 so it could be a co-ordinated bus that both competent members of the scumteam are doing.


I noticed this as well. Did you notice this independently of my musings on the topic yesterday/earlier today?

nn30 hedges on LUV trying to decide if it's scum or bad town. In fact, Prism was apparently so town that LUV's suspicion of Prism is what's causing this.


LUV was a big fat question mark for me all game. I was never part of his wagon because I never thought he was scummy enough. Obviously, I was wrong.

1749 - Gamma becomes nn30's strongest scumread. What I don't get is how you suddenly forgot about the massive Boring case you made yesterday especially given that the counterwagon flipped town. That should have re-iterated your scumread of Boring. But this seems to be a recurring theme where you make up a scumread, and then push somewhere else, and you are constantly changing your opinions. At least, that's consistent all the way through.


Don't attribute to malice what could just as equally be attributed to stupidity.

1834 - This is very hypocritical considering your play this game and how easily you forget previous reads and general forgetful nature.


Yes it is. My town game needs work.

1848 - This VC points towards Prism-town since I doubt both scum would be bussing here while there's a town counterwagon.


LUV put Gamma at L-1 a couple posts up. It's likely that scum wanted to be the hammering vote here.

1933 - I like nearly everything about this post. The suspicion of both Boring and LUV as well how thorough he's double-checking that Implosion clear. I didn't like the digs at Implosion's theory post but that's probably not alignment-indicative.


Finger of suspicion is a thing.

The one thing that's bugging me though is I'm wondering if the bus on LUV was co-ordinated by Boring and Prism.


Check out . What I point out here would add to the coordinated bus theory.

2278 - Prism pushes on. This would have been a really risky double bus following a bus on LUV. I get now what you mean when you say that your play spoke for itself. Still curious how Boring wasn't lynched that day. Need to check what happened later on.


He follows up the Boring scum read in but then something shiny catches him in , , , and culminates with a scum read (and push) on Grendel in . He certainly started the day here, but his follow through was not the strongest.

2279 - nn30's reaction here is how I expect scum to react. Saying that Boring's bus on LUV made her town.


I actually don't think scum do a whole lot of defending their partners, but I could be wrong. Even if I'm wrong, check my completed scum game. I barely talked to my partner, let alone defended her.

2428 - This is the crucial unvote from nn30. It looks like he's saw the suspicion Grendel had from Prism and is encouraging Prism and Implosion to look to him as an alternative to Boring.


Malice and stupidity.

2376 - Interesting thing from this VC though is that everytime nn30 voted Boring, it's always when a wagon has formed on her. He's never the driving force behind a Boring lynch.


Check D1 again. I'm fairly certain I was like a dog with a bone.

But I also think that if he truly didn't know Boring's alignment, he'd be more wary about Penguin trying to set up lynches.


I was unhappy about it. I may not have behaved like you wanted me to, but I didn't like that he was trying to line me up behind Boring based on her flip.

2549 - This Prism post is deadly risky because he suggests that Implosion singularly pick the day's lynch. Implosion has been pretty clear that he wanted Boring so it seems obvious that Boring is who he would push. He also lays down some plans for what Zoronos should do which I think would be shooting himself in the foot if he was mafia. I'm just not sure where his skill level is at and what are the kinds of things he could fake.


This isn't risky at all if scum have a role-blocker (which town has mused about for a while now).

2699 - This is really weak. NN30 hasn't been overwhelmingly town in this game. To be fair, I skimmed some of his posts. Making over 500 posts is overkill and I can't keep track of any of his thoughts or opinions which change on a dime. He's all over the place. I fail to see how you can make any sense of his posting. To call him a god or town is really a stretch.


Yep. I claim village idiot. I'll remove my crown once I've figured out how to play better. I think you're right to point this out about Prism - though he has been saying I'd have to be a god to be scum.

2860 - This is a really weird post. D3, nn30 was pushing Boring but then switches over and says he's not convinced Boring is scum. Seriously, all your stance changes are giving me whiplash.


*Shrug* Sorry man. Like I said, check out Art Mafia. I did a bit of that there as town too.

Check out Implosion's 2474 - specifically how he says I don't have a plan. Grendel called me the 'waffle peddler' before we lynched him. It's pretty fitting frankly. With the lens that Implosion provides, see if you can't see my posts in a new light.

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Post Post #3285  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:22 pm

@Prism - Can you give me a scum motivation for

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Post Post #3286  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:28 pm

In post 3281, BlackVoid wrote:You called him god-level if he was scum and it seemed to me like he was the one townread you were going to take to the bank. I found this an odd choice really.


When this game is over and I flip town, you'll see that I'm actually just a VI.

Somebody who has been playing for this long will be able to recognize that. He probably pocketed me because he felt that he could manipulate me in LyLo.

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Post Post #3287  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:07 pm

Can't respond tonight, will tomorrow sometime after 9 PM PST.

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Post Post #3288  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:15 am

In post 3287, Prism wrote:Can't respond tonight, will tomorrow sometime after 9 PM PST.

Okay. I'm in PST as well so we only have two more days left (today and tomorrow). I'll be there after 9PM today so we can talk one-to-one before I decide where to vote. I really do want to spend time tomorrow as well to make my case for why my slot (and Shadow) is town so if I vote right, whoever is town can also make the right decision.

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Post Post #3289  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:36 am

So, your defense to all of that is "I'm a VI?" Here's a post from a towngame of yours where you describe your bussing tendencies:

Spoiler: Quote from nn30's towngame Newbie 1757
In post 329, nn30 wrote:Hah,

Funny story. My first game on this site I sas scum. During this game my partner made some convoluted BS phaux-analytical post. Town didn't see how bad it was but I certainly did.

I 'scum read' her for making such a poorly analytical post.

The rest of the game her analysis was impeccable. I knew who was town and even I was beginning to scum read town slots.

Mission accomplished.

Wyvernites post feels to be in a similar vein; scum coaching scum.

Obviously wyv could be town but just a wrinkle to consider... Continuing my wyv / Deer ISO..

From someone like that I could totally see you thinking Boring looked scummy and pushing her. I don't like how you are pointing out one game and saying that you didn't bus there means you don't bus at all. People can play differently from game to game. By the way, I just read that one completed towngame. I still got another towngame and a scumgame to go before I continue with this one.

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Post Post #3290  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:15 am

You just quoted something that has 0 to do with bussing. I called my partner out for her obv scum play. Not bussing.

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Post Post #3291  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:18 am

And I can't believe you're giving more weight to a quote you're misinterpreting than to the scum PT from the time frame of when I would have been bussing Boring.

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Post Post #3292  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:52 am

You said in the scum PT of one game that bussing seemed to be a bad idea. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't bus in a different circumstance in a different game. There was a town-led wagon on Boring which you joined.

I didn't misinterpret that quote. What it shows is that you are not averse to noticing that your partner looks scummy and calling them out on it. Your case on Boring is pretty much that.

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Post Post #3293  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:54 am

I'm coming close to making my decision. At this point I feel like you are playing both sides. My vote will likely end up on you. The only thing that would really change my mind is you voting Prism and showing me why I'm wrong. If you really think he's scum pocketing you, now's the time to back up your words.

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Post Post #3294  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:51 pm

I need you to finish your re-read. Check today - Prism spent a lot of time explaining why he thinks I'm town, but he's done no reconciling of your behavior or your predecessor's behavior from the POV of scum. He's content with 'well Nn30 is obv town, I don't need to double check that by double checking that BV/Shadow is scum.

So, if you're Scum!BV, your POV is that Prism is likely to vote you and that I'm likely to vote you. Your best play is probably to bait me into doing something rash (which 3293 may be) since Prism hasn't really strayed far from the 'it's probably just BV' line today.

On the other hand, if you're Town!BV, you're actually just baffled by how my play could be town motivated. It's so erratic that it's natural to conclude that my play is scummy.

Okay BV - I need you to take a long hard look at LyLo of Newbie 1749 (I'm town) and LyLo of Newbie 1741 (I'm scum). In 1749 I death tunneled Dom. I was certain it was him and I attacked him relentlessly. In 1741, I spent LyLo sitting in the fence by comparison. Check how aggressive I am in the town game vs. how passive I am in the scum game - then ask yourself whether or not I've been passive or aggressive in this game.

If you do this, and come out the other end with the conclusion that I'm scum who changed my play style, so be it.

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Post Post #3295  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:59 pm

In post 3251, BlackVoid wrote:The timing of the case on Boring was quite good and nn30 overall did push scum over the town cc's. There were two points he tied Shadow to Boring pretty blatantly and from a newb-scum, this makes sense although I do see why he would think that way as town. Boring's responses to nn30 seem fairly neutral but I'm leaning towards her talking to town based on her tone.


In post 3292, BlackVoid wrote:You said in the scum PT of one game that bussing seemed to be a bad idea. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't bus in a different circumstance in a different game. There was a town-led wagon on Boring which you joined.


Did I just catch you, BV?

How is it that I present evidence to you that I'm not a fan of bussing, and you use that evidence to walk back what you said earlier today?

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Post Post #3296  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:01 pm

In 3251 you say I made a case on Boring.

In 3292 you say I just hopped on a town-led wagon.

How can you hold both of these ideas regarding my play?

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Post Post #3297  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:05 pm

In post 2921, BlackVoid wrote:[Nn30] - Not Boring's partner. The case isn't bad at all.

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Post Post #3298  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:07 pm

This isn't convincing me. I don't feel like you are actually trying to figure anything out. If you are scum, this is exactly what I expected - for you to backtrack and say I'm scum when I press you to vote Prism because you know that voting him and confirming me as town will reduce your chances of winning. So, yeah, likely my vote is ending up on you once I'm done.

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Post Post #3299  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:29 pm

In post 3081, BlackVoid wrote:I'm still not sure which of nn30 or Dierfire it is. I guess I'll have to do this the hard way and re-read again. This is going to take a while.

Vote me then.

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