mhsmith0's Large Normal Review

[mhsmith0]

I'm actually pretty flexible about specific power mix here, what I primarily want is a 12/3/3 game where one scum team has a traitor, and both scum teams have a little bit of nk protection, and I'll freely admit that I really don't know what the "right" mix of town power for that to work appropriately is.

For instance, turning vengeful into like a 1-shot strongman vig.
Or hider into some other reasonably useful role.
Or adding or tossing a town pr.
Etc.

[mhsmith0]

Notes

1) I think I'm gonna revise to just red mafia and blue mafia, and get rid of confusing werewolf terms (elder is werewolf kill proof fwiw)

2) 9/2/2 is standard for mini normal multiball, so I'd think 12/3/3 is about right for 18p multiball. Overall scum #s are higher in multiball than single ball since there's cross-killing IIRC. It's also pretty messy to balance a game of this size if scum factions are NOT equal size.

3) If town is overall under-powered (and I'm very curious what balance considerations are for this # of players), why does it make sense to nerf the vig?

4) traitor is non-recruitable, gets end-gamed if his teammates are killed. not sure about hider vs traitor though. If that's messy I can easily sub in a different role (or two, but that would mean >50% of town is PR, which I'd GUESS is too much)

5) I can nerf roleblocker to be odd night role blocker if that would help balance. First consideration IMO is balancing the two scum teams, then after that I'd want to balance town against them. My thought was roleblocker is much less powerful in mutilball compared to single ball but could be wrong.

[mhsmith0]

So let's say:

Red Mafia
Goon
1-shot elder
Roleblocker

Blue Mafia
Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him)
1-shot bp
Odd night ninja, even night strongman

Town (12 total)
Vig
1-shot strongman vig
Doc (works on all kills)
Tracker (works on all actions)
Hider (standard mechanics, dies if visiting anti-town, not sure about traitor)
1-shot bp
6 vts

If hider is messy, I can do something else like jailkeeper, innocent child, etc. not doing cop though.

[mhsmith0]

Typo, should have been bp.

So let's say:

Red Mafia
Goon
1-shot bp
Roleblocker

Blue Mafia
Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him)
1-shot bp
Odd night ninja, even night strongman

Town (12 total)
Vig
1-shot strongman vig
Doc (works on all kills)
Tracker (works on all actions)
Hider (standard mechanics, dies if visiting anti-town, not sure about traitor)
1-shot bp
6 vts

If hider is messy, I can do something else like jailkeeper, innocent child, etc. not doing cop though.

[mhsmith0]

1) yeah so I'm just swapping to two color mafia factions and making terminology more normal. I'd just missed the elder the first time.

2) 9/2/2 setups are standard mini normal multiball. Though there's only like two such games run from 1401 on. I'm open to making it 19p instead of 18p, MAYBE even 20p if needed for balance.

3) interestingly, towns have done much better when power is concentrated on fewer more useful roles instead of multiple crappy roles.

4) I'm a bit flexible on town #s if needed. I do think 12/3/3 ought to be ok but 14/3/3 is something I'm willing to do if it is balanced correctly. I do like having traitor on one team, make sit more interesting. I'm inclined to not give the traitor a bp; that SHOULD be a potential point of weakness IMO.

5) could you clarify what you mean by "survivability" here?

6) yeah I'll announce multiball

7) I don't especially see why vig should be macho? Doc only stops one shot anyway, so if scum gang up there they can combine to kill him.

[mhsmith0]

Wrt vig, there's also strongman from one team and roleblocker from other. I feel like it's fine for town to have 1-2 strong roles without counters to them baked into their own design. If town kills roleblocker and strongman then they SHOULD potentially be able to press the advantage.

[mhsmith0]

@myko: I eliminated werewolf terminology, so where I am right now:

Red Mafia
Goon
1-shot bp
Roleblocker

Blue Mafia
Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him - can't be recruited, endgamed if/when teammates die)
1-shot bp
Odd night ninja, even night strongman

Town (12 total)
Vig
1-shot strongman vig
Doc (works on all kills)
Tracker (works on all actions)
Hider (standard mechanics, dies if visiting anti-town, not sure about traitor)
1-shot bp
6 vts

And I'm pretty flexible on hider here.

[mhsmith0]

^doctor: stops 1 kill per night only, but works on any source of kills. Given that killers are mafia/vig this is less interesting than previously.

[mhsmith0]

Traitor is normal given

is Mafia-aligned
knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

right now only non normal variants are 1-shot strongman vig and the hider, so I think it fits. I'm also flexible about those two roles in particular; could do 2-shot vig instead of strongman for instance, maybe could do innocent child or role cop instead of hider if that's considered better.

I think my #1 priority is getting a sense of balance; if it's about right, then I can play with details, but if it's way off, then bigger changes will be needed.

[mhsmith0]

So that'd look like:

Red Mafia
Goon
1-shot bp
Odd night Roleblocker

Blue Mafia
1-shot bp Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him - can't be recruited, endgamed if/when teammates die)
1-shot bp
Even night strongman

Town (12 total)
Vig
1-shot strongman vig
Doc (blocks one bullet per night)
Tracker
Hider (or possibly some other power like IC)
1-shot bp
6 vts

I'm a little bit concerned that blue mafia is UP compared to red, but the BP on the traitor does help with it. Overall there's enough weird stuff going on that town doesn't have an easy roadmap to victory through cheap PR investigations, but it's also potentially winnable at night with really good doc/vig/tracker actions. I'm open to adding another 1-2 VT's and/or swapping something for hider if you guys think that would improve the balance, but my gut says that we're at least close.

[mhsmith0]

Worst case:

for red: bp lynched D1, goon and roleblocker shot N1, they lose

for blue: bp lynched D1, strongman shot by red or a vig, traitor endgamed N1

for town: VT lynched D1 (have to think a PR wouldn't be, except maybe the BP), 2-3 PRs shot N1 (4 possible but at some point let's not go nuts), D2 down to (let's say)
Vig
Tracker
Hider
1-shot BP
5 vts

Basically any team has the potential to get crushed early on. There's a big incentive for scum teams NOT to cross-kill (and a BP being on both teams is a hint that the other team might have one as well), but obviously scum could cross-kill anyway (whether on purpose or not). Scum need to not get hit by cross-killing or vigs and to at least achieve occassional mislynches (lynching other scum team also works). Town need to either get helped by cross-kills or have solid scum-hunting or night actions.

[mhsmith0]

The real question is how realistic 4 kills per night would be, given:
1) A doctor
2) Four 1-shot BPs
3) Likely kill overlapping

I might mull over swapping out the 1-shot strongman vig, but IMO that's a role that likely holsters early on until there's a clear and obvious target. And obviously vig or strongman vig could die early.

[mhsmith0]

I don't know that I'd explicitly make it night 2, but I'm fine with adding a "not night 1" modifier to the 1-shot strongman vig.

[mhsmith0]

Frankly, I'm increasingly convinced that people who rand 1/2 shot PR's blow their shots too early, and that's part of why town win rates are so bad with 1-2 shot roles. So I'm fine with basically forcing the 1-shot not to blow it N1.

[mhsmith0]

I'm ok w follower instead of hider. Enough killing roles here that it's not a cheap guilty or the like.

[mhsmith0]

I could slap on an even night one shot modifier if needed to the strongman vig, that gets rid of any possible issues with a simple "not n1" modifier.

[mhsmith0]

Draft opening posts:

Welcome to Large Normal xxx!

Your moderator is mhsmith0 and your backup moderator is xxx. This setup has been reviewed by Firebringer, Cogito Ergo Sum, and mykonian for normalcy and balance.

Playerlist:

* = prods

Spoiler: Living Players

Spoiler: Dead Players

Spoiler: Event History

[/list]

General Site Rules that we all pretty much know:

• If you have something that you need to communicate with me
  bold
  your text or I cannot guarantee I will see it.
  
• As the MOD I reserve the right to modkill or force-replace players as I see fit.
  
• If you feel I have erred send me a PM and let me know.
  
• That said, do not bring disagreements with me into the thread. That is what the PM is for. The same goes for disagreements with other players.
  
• Do not use invisible or in some way encrypted fonts or typing.
  
• Follow all the site rules. Play to your wincon but above all play to have fun. Do not ruin the game for others.

General game rules:

• I will use the colour
  #FFAA00
  . This is my color and only my color. Don't use it.
  
• A lynch is reached when a majority of all players (half rounded down plus one) are voting for the same target.
  
• If a majority is not reached by the deadline, a No Lynch will occur.
  
• You may vote No Lynch in the same way that you vote for a lynch. Once a majority has voted for a no lynch the day immediately ends.
  
• Abuse of an infinite no-lynch/no-kill loop will not be tolerated. Do not even contemplate it.
  
• Votes must be written in
  bold
  as
  Vote: Player
  or use the VOTE: Player tag. Votes that are not tagged will not be counted.
  
• Votes in quotes, spoiler tags or otherwise hidden will also not be counted.
  
• Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will be counted as normal as long as I understand what you are getting at.
  
• Unvotes are helpful, but not necessary. Let me know if I make an error in vote counts and I will correct them.
  
• I will try and do vote counts often but if you want one just let me know.
  
• As the MOD I will keep communication down to the absolute minimum possible (aside from vote counts and the like). I do not want to influence the game itself – that is for the players to do.
  
• This is a closed setup. The setup has been reviewed for normalcy and balance.
  
• Flips will have full role revealed (I will essentially post the PM you received on your flip with the obvious required reductions)

Game Flow:

• The Game will begin and the thread will be unlocked after 10 players confirm via PM.
  
• Please announce if you are going on V/LA. I prefer this announced in thread unless there is a specific reason not to.
  
• If you have not posted for 48 hours you will receive a prod. If you do not post within 24 hours of a prod you will be replaced.
  
• Three prods will result in being replaced.
  
• The first two day phases will last a maximum of 14 days. Day Three will last a maximum of 12 days, Day Four a maximum of 10 days, and all subsequent Days Phases no more than 8 days.
  
• Each Night Phase will last 48 hours. Starting on Night Three, I will accept speed deadlines if ALL players (including those without night actions) ask for it via PM.
  
• You may communicate as normal during the twilight phase until I close the thread but votes/un-votes will not count.
  
• Extensions may be granted for replacements or extenuating circumstances.
  
• A missed Night Action will result in a No Action.
  
• The game will end when all threats to town have been eliminated or that is not possible.
  
• A single player may potentially perform up to two actions per night phase. This means that, for instance, a scum player may use an active ability AND kill a target player on the same night.
  

[mhsmith0]

So I get the sense that numbers are part of the issue, so how about this:

19 players

Red Mafia
Goon
1-shot bp
Odd night Roleblocker

Blue Mafia
1-shot bp Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him - can't be recruited, endgamed if/when teammates die)
1-shot bp
Odd night ninja / Even night strongman (given blue mafia is weaker, I don't see why this role should be nerfed, especially given that there's only a single tracker anyway)

Town (13 total)
Vig
1-shot novice strongman vig
Doc (blocks one bullet per night)
Tracker
Innocent Child
1-shot bp
7 vts

Normalcy:
Non-whitelisted roles:
1-shot novice strongman vig: Novice/strongman are both non-white listed modifiers (the latter whitelisted for anti-town), but neither is blacklisted

Balance:
Town has just over 2/3 the number of players, and the scum teams are against each other, so I wouldn't think that scum should necessarily have a strong thread presence. I swapped IC for hider mainly because with all those bullets flying around, it'd be a pretty swingy sort of role with a lot of potential to get shot N1 even with a correct hide. I want to say that this is pretty balanced; what do you guys think?

[mhsmith0]

Firebringer was the one talking numbers, so I was reacting to his commentary. Wrt town/scum sided, simply adding vts SHOULD I think help with balance, though obviously I don't have a great sense of what is exactly the right numbers here.

I may do some comparisons to prior large normals on this front. Intuitively I'd think it's ok balance wise but obv am not sure.

[mhsmith0]

So that would give us:

Red Mafia
Goon
Goon
Odd night Roleblocker

Blue Mafia
1-shot bp Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him - can't be recruited, endgamed if/when teammates die)
Goon
Odd night ninja / Even night strongman

Town (13 total)
Vig
1-shot novice strongman vig
Doc (blocks one bullet ONLY per night)
Tracker
Innocent Child
1-shot bp
7 vts

I suspect it's a touch town-sided, but I don't really have an issue with it, since there's going to be tremendous swing given the full vig, and that doctor/tracker could easily do nothing or be counter-productive.

[mhsmith0]

Basic Role PM's (for flips, with redactions - other role PMs to be made after setup is finalized)

VT:

Welcome to Mini Normal 1843! You are a

Vanilla Townie

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Red Mafia Goon

Welcome to Mini Normal 1843! You are a treacherous

Red Mafia Goon

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may communicate with your

{REDACTED}

during the day as well as each night here.

You may also perform your factional kill each night.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Blue Mafia Goon

Welcome to Mini Normal 1843! You are a treacherous

Blue Mafia Goon

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may communicate with your

{REDACTED}

during the day as well as each night here.

You may also perform your factional kill each night.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

[mhsmith0]

Yeah I'll do OP and role Pms this weekend

[mhsmith0]

Basic Role PM's (for flips, with redactions)

VT (x7)

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a

Vanilla Townie

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Town Vig

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a

Town Vigilante

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.
In addition, at night you may PM me the identity of a player you wish to shoot. The use of this ability is optional; you may holster if you wish.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

One-shot novice strongman vig

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a

Town One-Shot Novice Strongman Vigilante

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.
In addition, once during the game, at night you may PM me the identity of a player you wish to shoot. If you use this ability, your kill will not be able to be blocked by abilities such as doctor, jailkeeper, roleblocker, or bulletproof.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Doctor

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a

Town Doctor

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.
In addition, at night you may PM me the identity of a player you wish to protect. The use of this ability is optional; you may holster if you wish.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Tracker

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a

Town Tracker

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.
In addition, at night you may PM me the identity of a player you wish to track. You will receive a report saying "The target visited ___", "No result" or "The target did not go anywhere". The use of this ability is optional; you may holster if you wish.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

IC

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a

Town Innocent Child

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.
In addition, you have the ability to have me confirm your alignment in-thread at any time by PM'ing me with this request. Such a request MAY NOT be revoked, even if I have not posted alignment confirmation yet.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

1-shot BP

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a

Town One-Shot Bulletproof

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.
In addition, you have a 1-shot bulletproof vest. Due to this ability, the first time you are shot, you will survive the attempt. You will not be informed when this happens.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Red Mafia Goon x2

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a treacherous

Red Mafia Goon

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may communicate with your

{REDACTED}

during the day as well as each night here.

You may also perform your factional kill each night.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Red Mafia Odd Night Roleblocker

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a treacherous

Red Mafia Odd-Night Roleblocker

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may communicate with your

{REDACTED}

during the day as well as each night here.

You may also perform your factional kill each night.

You may also, on odd nights only, choose to roleblock any player. This will prevent that player from taking any actions that night. You may, if you wish, use this ability at the same time as performing your factional kill.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Blue Mafia 1-shot BP Traitor

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a treacherous

Blue Mafia One-Shot Bulletproof Traitor

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may NOT communicate with your

{REDACTED}

at any time. Your identity is unknown by your

{REDACTED}

.

In addition, you have a 1-shot bulletproof vest. Due to this ability, the first time you are shot, you will survive the attempt. You will not be informed when this happens.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Blue Mafia Goon

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a treacherous

Blue Mafia Goon

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may communicate with your

{REDACTED}

during the day as well as each night here.

You may also perform your factional kill each night.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

Blue Mafia Odd Night Ninja / Even Night Strongman

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a treacherous

Blue Mafia Odd-Night Ninja / Even-Night Strongman

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may communicate with your

{REDACTED}

during the day as well as each night here.

You may also perform your factional kill each night. On odd nights, your kill will be unseen, and on even nights, your kill will not be able to be blocked by abilities such as doctor, jailkeeper, roleblocker, or bulletproof.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

[mhsmith0]

Traitor edit:

Welcome to Large Normal 201! You are a treacherous

Blue Mafia One-Shot Bulletproof Traitor

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may NOT communicate with your

{REDACTED}

at any time. Your identity is unknown by your

{REDACTED}

.

In addition, you have a 1-shot bulletproof vest. Due to this ability, the first time you are shot, you will survive the attempt. You will not be informed when this happens.

As a traitor, you cannot be directly recruited by any means, and if you are the last surviving member of your team, you will be automatically endgamed.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

[mhsmith0]

Sorry about not remembering to do this over the weekend btw. Smith lazy lol

[mhsmith0]

Nitpicking the nitpick:

In addition,

once during the game

, at night you may PM me the identity of a player you wish to shoot. If you use this ability, your kill will not be able to be blocked by abilities such as doctor, jailkeeper, roleblocker, or bulletproof.

[mhsmith0]

Smith GOAT

[mhsmith0]

So I think we're good to go, now just need a backup or co-mod. Any of you guys interested?