You didn't actually contribute anything to the Dierfire discussion. You hopped on in 3122 once town had already come to a consensus.
Hey Prism, when you get back, let me know when you're ready. You played one hellofa game and if I lose to you so be it. You deserve it.
Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3301
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:01 pm
Analysis on nn30's previous games
First off, I'll say that his play here is unlike either his town or scum games. He's got three completed games. As town, Newbie 1757, and Newbie 1749. As scum, it's Newbie 1741 and the associated Mafia topic is here.
His townplay is pretty low-key and there haven't been any wild jumps back and forth between reads. In 1757, he gets some early pressure on page one for mixing up his thought processes but nothing like what I've seen here. His scumplay is rather like his townplay (awkward and low-key). It's quite apparent that if he's scum here, he definitely improved since his first ever forum mafia game. My major hesitation in voting nn30 basically comes down to just how much stuff there is in the thread. Constant case-making, constant pushing in every direction, there's just a ton of content in the thread which is harder to fake than Prism's measured, reasoned analysis. I also think strategic busses at good times would be a hallmark for a player like Prism who claims to be experienced and competent. There is a post here where nn30 as scum votes someone because if he's scum, good, if he's town, he's unhelpful. That's the exact same mentality he showed towards Shadow_Step and it doesn't feature in his towngame.
However, one of the reasons I had a mild townread on him was due to his constant meta-reads on others which shows he's putting in effort. But this is something he does as scum rendering it null.
Finally, saying that he was not considering all options when he was scum in lylo is either a lie or a stretch because he was pushing and considering everyone, waited for a townie to vote another and then quickhammered which is similar to what he's doing here. In his two towngames, he was endgamed both times. One of those times, he quickvoted a town player. In the other one, he was pretty sure who he wanted to vote and hammered that player (incorrectly). But none of this crazyness of pushing all sides. Based on nn30 meta, I guess I lean slightly towards him as scum but I need to finish up this game since I replaced in. I want to see if there's anything that might change my mind.
First off, I'll say that his play here is unlike either his town or scum games. He's got three completed games. As town, Newbie 1757, and Newbie 1749. As scum, it's Newbie 1741 and the associated Mafia topic is here.
His townplay is pretty low-key and there haven't been any wild jumps back and forth between reads. In 1757, he gets some early pressure on page one for mixing up his thought processes but nothing like what I've seen here. His scumplay is rather like his townplay (awkward and low-key). It's quite apparent that if he's scum here, he definitely improved since his first ever forum mafia game. My major hesitation in voting nn30 basically comes down to just how much stuff there is in the thread. Constant case-making, constant pushing in every direction, there's just a ton of content in the thread which is harder to fake than Prism's measured, reasoned analysis. I also think strategic busses at good times would be a hallmark for a player like Prism who claims to be experienced and competent. There is a post here where nn30 as scum votes someone because if he's scum, good, if he's town, he's unhelpful. That's the exact same mentality he showed towards Shadow_Step and it doesn't feature in his towngame.
However, one of the reasons I had a mild townread on him was due to his constant meta-reads on others which shows he's putting in effort. But this is something he does as scum rendering it null.
Finally, saying that he was not considering all options when he was scum in lylo is either a lie or a stretch because he was pushing and considering everyone, waited for a townie to vote another and then quickhammered which is similar to what he's doing here. In his two towngames, he was endgamed both times. One of those times, he quickvoted a town player. In the other one, he was pretty sure who he wanted to vote and hammered that player (incorrectly). But none of this crazyness of pushing all sides. Based on nn30 meta, I guess I lean slightly towards him as scum but I need to finish up this game since I replaced in. I want to see if there's anything that might change my mind.
-
podoboq
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: November 07, 2015
- Location: Cincy
- Pronoun: He
Post #3302
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:34 pm
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3303
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:18 pm
Pages 116 - 122 (rest of D4 since my replace in)
The biggest red flag for me is how he's suddenly able to see Boring as scum once I made the case on her. When Shadow_Step was pushing Dierfire's mislynch, nn30 was happy to not say much about Boring. He was never convinced by Implosion's or Prism's cases against her. So, how is me repeating the same things suddenly a reason to scumread her?
He also seems overly concerned with who is lynched if one of Boring/Dierfire flips town. But that's circumstantial and Prism's late hop onto Boring was done at a time when it's basically his only option.
nn30 immediately scumreading me after I said Prism was conf-town and that he and Boring were most likely scum is also something I see as coming from scum. He'd know that it was going to be him or me if I never vote Prism and Boring and Dierfire were the lynches. He even suggests that I should be lynched first so he has the juicy Dierfire mislynch waiting for him in lylo.
I thought the Zoronos suspicion looked really fake and like a "I wouldn't kill him after I suspected him move." He keeps arguing that he's batshit crazy but his towngame didn't consist of suspecting literally everyone. In fact, his reads overall were fairly believable.
2993 feels like a setup for his push on Dierfire next after he realized that there was no way he was going to get me lynched first. There's no real reason for townreading me and his D5 play where he suddenly townreads me and says Dierfire is scum is pretty convenient as well.
Everytime I read an nn30, my reaction is "what in the hell?" There's probably a case on every single person in the playerlist nested under spoiler tags with quotes from that player added with his own scummy little twist.
3036 - The final post from Prism D4 where he explains the nn30 townread. I really don't follow this at all. Honestly, it seems like the kind of vague reads scum give on townies which I hate. The rest of his analysis is fine. I do get that sometimes it's really hard to explain townreads so that could be it. On balance, end of D4, I think I still want nn30 over Prism.
Day 5 (Pages 122 to 126)
Prism's reaction of voting Dierfire is something I expect from him as either alignment. nn30's 3056 is something I find mildly scummy. Says I'm town so he can get Dierfire lynch locked in while throwing paranoia around calling it "too easy."
3072 - I think you are overvaluing a mafia PR. There were four town votes on Boring. It's unlikely that five townies independently suspected Boring on D1 and the lynch still didn't go through. Likelihood of at least one scum bussing is pretty high. It's not just that Boring was a mafia PR, her play was scummy and it seemed like she was going to get lynched at some point so bussing makes sense here.
3080, 3082, and 3083 is scum just egging me on to vote Dierfire.
3089 - I think this devil's advocate play points somewhat to nn30 being town? 3091 is dumb if he's town because if Dierfire named him, that would be an auto-loss. Making a deal with him to lynch me while cautioning people not to townread Dierfire is so blatantly scummy, I'm honestly not sure what to make of it.
Suggesting that he's undecided between me and Dierfire is pretty much what he would have to do as scum. I did a similar thing in that I was undecided about Dierfire but thought nn30 was scummier. It's a surface-level scummy thing but the fact that nn30 is milking it so much is what's making me lean towards it being him.
Prism's end of day post wasn't bad and I could see it coming from town. If he's scum, he covered his bases really, really well. I'm going to start going over the D6 stuff that I missed in detail now and post direct responses.
The biggest red flag for me is how he's suddenly able to see Boring as scum once I made the case on her. When Shadow_Step was pushing Dierfire's mislynch, nn30 was happy to not say much about Boring. He was never convinced by Implosion's or Prism's cases against her. So, how is me repeating the same things suddenly a reason to scumread her?
He also seems overly concerned with who is lynched if one of Boring/Dierfire flips town. But that's circumstantial and Prism's late hop onto Boring was done at a time when it's basically his only option.
nn30 immediately scumreading me after I said Prism was conf-town and that he and Boring were most likely scum is also something I see as coming from scum. He'd know that it was going to be him or me if I never vote Prism and Boring and Dierfire were the lynches. He even suggests that I should be lynched first so he has the juicy Dierfire mislynch waiting for him in lylo.
I thought the Zoronos suspicion looked really fake and like a "I wouldn't kill him after I suspected him move." He keeps arguing that he's batshit crazy but his towngame didn't consist of suspecting literally everyone. In fact, his reads overall were fairly believable.
2993 feels like a setup for his push on Dierfire next after he realized that there was no way he was going to get me lynched first. There's no real reason for townreading me and his D5 play where he suddenly townreads me and says Dierfire is scum is pretty convenient as well.
Everytime I read an nn30, my reaction is "what in the hell?" There's probably a case on every single person in the playerlist nested under spoiler tags with quotes from that player added with his own scummy little twist.
3036 - The final post from Prism D4 where he explains the nn30 townread. I really don't follow this at all. Honestly, it seems like the kind of vague reads scum give on townies which I hate. The rest of his analysis is fine. I do get that sometimes it's really hard to explain townreads so that could be it. On balance, end of D4, I think I still want nn30 over Prism.
Day 5 (Pages 122 to 126)
Prism's reaction of voting Dierfire is something I expect from him as either alignment. nn30's 3056 is something I find mildly scummy. Says I'm town so he can get Dierfire lynch locked in while throwing paranoia around calling it "too easy."
3072 - I think you are overvaluing a mafia PR. There were four town votes on Boring. It's unlikely that five townies independently suspected Boring on D1 and the lynch still didn't go through. Likelihood of at least one scum bussing is pretty high. It's not just that Boring was a mafia PR, her play was scummy and it seemed like she was going to get lynched at some point so bussing makes sense here.
3080, 3082, and 3083 is scum just egging me on to vote Dierfire.
3089 - I think this devil's advocate play points somewhat to nn30 being town? 3091 is dumb if he's town because if Dierfire named him, that would be an auto-loss. Making a deal with him to lynch me while cautioning people not to townread Dierfire is so blatantly scummy, I'm honestly not sure what to make of it.
Suggesting that he's undecided between me and Dierfire is pretty much what he would have to do as scum. I did a similar thing in that I was undecided about Dierfire but thought nn30 was scummier. It's a surface-level scummy thing but the fact that nn30 is milking it so much is what's making me lean towards it being him.
Prism's end of day post wasn't bad and I could see it coming from town. If he's scum, he covered his bases really, really well. I'm going to start going over the D6 stuff that I missed in detail now and post direct responses.
-
nn30
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: August 15, 2016
Post #3304
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:42 pm
In post 3301, BlackVoid wrote:However, one of the reasons I had a mild townread on him was due to his constant meta-reads on others which shows he's putting in effort. But this is something he does as scum rendering it null.
There's a difference between glancing at a wiki and digging through past games in order to glean play style and tendencies.
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3305
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:50 pm
Well, I took a break and thought about this game. The thing that's bugging me is that Prism's play is almost a bit too perfect. It's the kind of scumplay I would expect from someone that's very, very good at scum. Strategic bussing at crucial points to make it to lylo but with just enough scum-motivated play (the switch to Grendel for instance, and the vote on Eagersnake D1). Now he's in lylo with a damn good record and is on the verge of winning the game. nn30 has been wildly pushing everywhere. I honestly don't know if a player is even capable of making THAT many posts and occupying a huge part of the game. That's why I'm wondering if it's Prism.
By the way, asking you to vote Prism was obviously not a bait. I don't have any motivation to do that as scum over just voting someone and pushing them. I did that as town because it would give town a better chance of winning with me confirmed, because it seemed to me that even if I vote right, there's a good chance, I'll be voted. I'm going to get back to reading D6 soon but if you are town, "I'm a VI" isn't a going to cut it as a response. I'd prefer seeing actual thought processes there and I really don't like how everytime one of us posts something about the other, you jump on that while at the same time, there doesn't seem to be much progression of your own reads. You were quick to vote both times you were town in lylo. Why would you wait this long now? (This isn't an invitation to vote by the way, I still want to finish up D6 and interact with Prism's responses first.) If you're scum, I pretty much only have tonight to lay down my case and convince Prism. If Prism's scum, it's a lot more convenient since we'll have all of tomorrow and I can show you exactly why Shadow's D1 play never comes from scum.
By the way, asking you to vote Prism was obviously not a bait. I don't have any motivation to do that as scum over just voting someone and pushing them. I did that as town because it would give town a better chance of winning with me confirmed, because it seemed to me that even if I vote right, there's a good chance, I'll be voted. I'm going to get back to reading D6 soon but if you are town, "I'm a VI" isn't a going to cut it as a response. I'd prefer seeing actual thought processes there and I really don't like how everytime one of us posts something about the other, you jump on that while at the same time, there doesn't seem to be much progression of your own reads. You were quick to vote both times you were town in lylo. Why would you wait this long now? (This isn't an invitation to vote by the way, I still want to finish up D6 and interact with Prism's responses first.) If you're scum, I pretty much only have tonight to lay down my case and convince Prism. If Prism's scum, it's a lot more convenient since we'll have all of tomorrow and I can show you exactly why Shadow's D1 play never comes from scum.
-
nn30
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: August 15, 2016
Post #3306
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:56 pm
In post 3305, BlackVoid wrote:Well, I took a break and thought about this game. The thing that's bugging me is that Prism's play is almost a bit too perfect. It's the kind of scumplay I would expect from someone that's very, very good at scum. Strategic bussing at crucial points to make it to lylo but with just enough scum-motivated play (the switch to Grendel for instance, and the vote on Eagersnake D1). Now he's in lylo with a damn good record and is on the verge of winning the game. nn30 has been wildly pushing everywhere. I honestly don't know if a player is even capable of making THAT many posts and occupying a huge part of the game. That's why I'm wondering if it's Prism.
Keep talking.
In post 3305, BlackVoid wrote:I'm going to get back to reading D6 soon but if you are town, "I'm a VI" isn't a going to cut it as a response.
What would cut it? Because either I'm a VI or I like to get wild with my scum games. I've been all over the place this game - the I'm a VI thing is basically the best thing I can give you. The game re-read you've just done encompasses my second forum mafia game. My first forum mafia game I wasn't that great at scum - my partner carried me to victory. It stands to reason that I wouldn't really know what to do in my first town game, either.
In post 3305, BlackVoid wrote:You were quick to vote both times you were town in lylo.
And it bit me in the ass.
Twice.
I've learned from that mistake.
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3307
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:15 pm
Honestly, it reminds me of a couple of my off-site scumgames where I decide to just go full-on bus-mode and play it like I'll be the last one standing. His push on LUV is based on something that's not very strong (LUV apparently plagiarized what Prism wrote), and he starts a massive push there. The wording especially ("the more votes on LUV" declarations) really reminds me of what I'd do if I committed to bussing. If he's scum, he's been pretty smooth with that and the reasons have flowed pretty well. But the more experience you have, the more believable you can make your busses.
His Boring push is similar. There's no real smoking gun. Just a lot of calling Boring scum for I don't know what reason. It's not like Implosion's suspicion which was absolutely dead-on. Then there's the subtle "why isn't Implosion pushing Boring more" which ties them together. I don't really understand how he got the reads he did basically. Boring and LUV are always in his scumpile except for some points where he votes a strategic mislynch (Eagersnake or Grendel). The competence he displayed with going after Boring doesn't square with his horrendous push on Eagersnake, Implosion, and now me (assuming he's town, you have to be scum so he'd be wrong).
His Boring push is similar. There's no real smoking gun. Just a lot of calling Boring scum for I don't know what reason. It's not like Implosion's suspicion which was absolutely dead-on. Then there's the subtle "why isn't Implosion pushing Boring more" which ties them together. I don't really understand how he got the reads he did basically. Boring and LUV are always in his scumpile except for some points where he votes a strategic mislynch (Eagersnake or Grendel). The competence he displayed with going after Boring doesn't square with his horrendous push on Eagersnake, Implosion, and now me (assuming he's town, you have to be scum so he'd be wrong).
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3308
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:23 pm
Contrary to Shadow_Step's insistence that the lynch had to happen no matter what, I actually think scum would have benefited tremendously from that EagerSnake lynch. They get a mislynch in the bag, Shadow_Step looks scummy as heck from it, and so on. Your vote on Boring just shows that you didn't treat her any differently than you treated anyone else. You made a spoilered case on her. Scum really needed that Eagersnake lynch over Boring and Prism's vote was one of the votes that put it over the top. If Prism truly was suspicious of Boring like he claims, he should have voted her D1 but that suspicion somehow falls to the wayside and he helps Eager get lynched.
His reasoning for voting Eagersnake is pretty much crap. Eagersnake apparently is playing it exactly like he should as scum? How on Earth was he expecting a town-Eagersnake to play it if Eager was reading Shadow as town? That consideration was never there and the vote was incredibly opportunistic.
His reasoning for voting Eagersnake is pretty much crap. Eagersnake apparently is playing it exactly like he should as scum? How on Earth was he expecting a town-Eagersnake to play it if Eager was reading Shadow as town? That consideration was never there and the vote was incredibly opportunistic.
-
Prism
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: August 19, 2015
Post #3309
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:28 pm
@Podoboq: Is it possible to get an extension through Thursday?
It is impossible for me to answer even a third of what is here the next two days without doing massive corner cutting. I have all the free time in the world after Wednesday, but today through Wednesday 9 PM EST I've got <2 hours a day to dedicate to the game.
It is impossible for me to answer even a third of what is here the next two days without doing massive corner cutting. I have all the free time in the world after Wednesday, but today through Wednesday 9 PM EST I've got <2 hours a day to dedicate to the game.
-
podoboq
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: November 07, 2015
- Location: Cincy
- Pronoun: He
Post #3314
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:15 pm
I am open to offering an extension of 60 hours, however all players must agree to the extension. If you would like to extend the deadline by 60 hours, please PRIVATE MESSAGE me to let me know that. If any player is against, I will not extend the deadline. Seeing as how we are close to deadline as is, I will need feedback soon. If I do not receive an answer from everybody within the next seven hours (36 hours to deadline), I will assume that you are against the extension, and I will not offer it. Respectfully, I ask that you not discuss this any further in the game thread.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3315
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:42 pm
Day 6 - Pages 126 and 127
I'll separate this out for Prism and nn30.
@Prism
3138 - A couple of issues I have with this post. One, making nn30 explain why he townreads you looks to me like you are encouraging him to townread you even more by getting into the mindset of explaining why he thinks you are town. Two, I find the focus on townreads of you to be a really weird thing to be pressing on. It seems like you are more interested in getting people to give townreads that are hard to walk back on while you should be aware that re-evaluating and re-assessing reads is absolutely necessary for good town play. It feels very self-preservationist. Why does it matter to you so much that people can't easily back out of their townreads on you? If they do it in a scummy way, then you've nailed them. The focus is all wrong here.
3148 - The way I phrased that read (by saying that it would be poor sportsmanship of you to replace out as scum) is the reason I take so much issue with your trying to refute that read and trying to imply that you would have done it as scum too. I'm going to straight up ask again: would you have posted that replace-out request as scum? If so, my understanding of you as a player has been wrong. If not, then I fail to see why you take as much issue with the read as you are doing. For most people, this would absolutely be a towntell. Replacing out when they get caught is just a really shitty thing to do as scum. I think Shadow_Step recognized that too. Why you expect him to think that he's got scum on the ropes and they flailed and replaced out boggles my mind. It makes me wonder if you actually did do it as scum.
3154 - Wtf is this? Shadow had an ego and you didn't understand why so he's scum? You claimed to have played mafia for five years so surely it would occur to you that there are so many players who look at their town play through rose colored glasses. Who think that their scum lynch rate is absolutely awesome and when they are wrong, they just blame it on the person they mislynched because "he shouldn't have been so damn scummy!" Shadow being convinced that the Eager lynch was necessary was frustrating but is hardly something that you would never see from town. This entire post reads like you are manipulating nn30 and trying to make him angry that Shadow called him a newbie. Shadow's replace out was absolutely not likely to happen as mafia. I'm not even saying it wasn't alignment-indicative. I'm flat-out saying it's a towntell. As mafia, if people are dismissing you as VI-town or calling you arrogant-town, you thrive on that, you win the game, and you show them who's the VI. But as town, being disrespected can be frustrating and I assume that's why he's had enough and replaced out because of that.
3157 - So, your major reason to suspect nn30 is simply because of his push on you. Throughout this lylo, the only criticism you had of him was that he was pushing you which struck me as a very odd thing to focus on. The major reason to suspect me early on D6 was that you were worried that I'd walk back on the townread I gave you for almost replacing out. I also said that you were scummy through my initial read of the thread so it seems like you are worried that I'd be the one to figure you out and are pre-empting that by choosing to set yourself up against me. As opposed to nn30 who the two of you've been mutually townreading all game. I also don't see what scum motivation I would have to hard-townread you for that replace out when no one did and then walk back on it, when I could have simply left you in the lynchpool to begin with.
3169 - This interpretation of Shadow's replace out is ridiculous and I have a really, really hard time buying that you actually believe it for reasons I outlined in the previous few paragraphs.
@nn30
3143 - This is just a bad mentality to get into. There is no circumstance under which town don't deserve to win the game. I'm of the opinion that every game is solvable. This is probably one of the harder lylo decisions I've had to make. Typically I find it a lot easier.
3153 - Somehow I missed the timing of this post the first time around. This definitely happened when I said I was pretty much voting nn30 and it seemed like he could win a 1v1 against me with Prism as the decider. Prism later saying that he never gave nn30 an olive branch seems like a stretch because as of this post, I'm sure Prism would have voted me over nn30 so I do take this to be a towntell. I in fact, don't understand why the heck Prism was townreading you so this pretty nailed it.
I'll separate this out for Prism and nn30.
@Prism
3138 - A couple of issues I have with this post. One, making nn30 explain why he townreads you looks to me like you are encouraging him to townread you even more by getting into the mindset of explaining why he thinks you are town. Two, I find the focus on townreads of you to be a really weird thing to be pressing on. It seems like you are more interested in getting people to give townreads that are hard to walk back on while you should be aware that re-evaluating and re-assessing reads is absolutely necessary for good town play. It feels very self-preservationist. Why does it matter to you so much that people can't easily back out of their townreads on you? If they do it in a scummy way, then you've nailed them. The focus is all wrong here.
3148 - The way I phrased that read (by saying that it would be poor sportsmanship of you to replace out as scum) is the reason I take so much issue with your trying to refute that read and trying to imply that you would have done it as scum too. I'm going to straight up ask again: would you have posted that replace-out request as scum? If so, my understanding of you as a player has been wrong. If not, then I fail to see why you take as much issue with the read as you are doing. For most people, this would absolutely be a towntell. Replacing out when they get caught is just a really shitty thing to do as scum. I think Shadow_Step recognized that too. Why you expect him to think that he's got scum on the ropes and they flailed and replaced out boggles my mind. It makes me wonder if you actually did do it as scum.
3154 - Wtf is this? Shadow had an ego and you didn't understand why so he's scum? You claimed to have played mafia for five years so surely it would occur to you that there are so many players who look at their town play through rose colored glasses. Who think that their scum lynch rate is absolutely awesome and when they are wrong, they just blame it on the person they mislynched because "he shouldn't have been so damn scummy!" Shadow being convinced that the Eager lynch was necessary was frustrating but is hardly something that you would never see from town. This entire post reads like you are manipulating nn30 and trying to make him angry that Shadow called him a newbie. Shadow's replace out was absolutely not likely to happen as mafia. I'm not even saying it wasn't alignment-indicative. I'm flat-out saying it's a towntell. As mafia, if people are dismissing you as VI-town or calling you arrogant-town, you thrive on that, you win the game, and you show them who's the VI. But as town, being disrespected can be frustrating and I assume that's why he's had enough and replaced out because of that.
3157 - So, your major reason to suspect nn30 is simply because of his push on you. Throughout this lylo, the only criticism you had of him was that he was pushing you which struck me as a very odd thing to focus on. The major reason to suspect me early on D6 was that you were worried that I'd walk back on the townread I gave you for almost replacing out. I also said that you were scummy through my initial read of the thread so it seems like you are worried that I'd be the one to figure you out and are pre-empting that by choosing to set yourself up against me. As opposed to nn30 who the two of you've been mutually townreading all game. I also don't see what scum motivation I would have to hard-townread you for that replace out when no one did and then walk back on it, when I could have simply left you in the lynchpool to begin with.
3169 - This interpretation of Shadow's replace out is ridiculous and I have a really, really hard time buying that you actually believe it for reasons I outlined in the previous few paragraphs.
@nn30
3143 - This is just a bad mentality to get into. There is no circumstance under which town don't deserve to win the game. I'm of the opinion that every game is solvable. This is probably one of the harder lylo decisions I've had to make. Typically I find it a lot easier.
3153 - Somehow I missed the timing of this post the first time around. This definitely happened when I said I was pretty much voting nn30 and it seemed like he could win a 1v1 against me with Prism as the decider. Prism later saying that he never gave nn30 an olive branch seems like a stretch because as of this post, I'm sure Prism would have voted me over nn30 so I do take this to be a towntell. I in fact, don't understand why the heck Prism was townreading you so this pretty nailed it.
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3317
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:24 pm
Actually, you telling me to vote you made me think you were scum because that's exactly what I would have expected if you were scum waiting on one of us to vote so you could quickhammer.
What really started making me think Prism was scum was when I finished reading up to D5, decided I was likely going to vote you, took a break and thought about this game. It just didn't feel right so I started thinking about the possibility Prism was scum. Then seeing his posts this lylo was what really sold it for me. His interpretation of Shadow's posts seemed like he's stretching past the point of believability. Without any offence, I'll also say that Prism came across as more experienced than you. You seem to have started playing mafia on a forum only recently, and it's more a stretch to believe that you are playing like this than it is that Prism strategically bussed and that his too-perfect play is actually indicative of good scumplay.
The fact that I couldn't get behind why he was scumreading Boring or LUV added to that and it seemed like an informed perspective. Your early case on Boring doesn't seem too good to be true because you were literally throwing out spoilered cases left, right, and center. It's only natural that you would have a case on Boring at some point. You didn't treat her any differently than you treated anyone else.
The Eagersnake/Shadow cc battle was extremely advantageous for scum. Prism's play there took advantage of it despite him saying that Boring was scum at a very critical juncture. Yours is contrary to the scum wincon. If Boring was lynched D1, scum would have been in a much worse position. Prism's actual reason for scumreading Eagersnake was several levels of horrible that only sunk in once I really started thinking about and investigating it.
What really started making me think Prism was scum was when I finished reading up to D5, decided I was likely going to vote you, took a break and thought about this game. It just didn't feel right so I started thinking about the possibility Prism was scum. Then seeing his posts this lylo was what really sold it for me. His interpretation of Shadow's posts seemed like he's stretching past the point of believability. Without any offence, I'll also say that Prism came across as more experienced than you. You seem to have started playing mafia on a forum only recently, and it's more a stretch to believe that you are playing like this than it is that Prism strategically bussed and that his too-perfect play is actually indicative of good scumplay.
The fact that I couldn't get behind why he was scumreading Boring or LUV added to that and it seemed like an informed perspective. Your early case on Boring doesn't seem too good to be true because you were literally throwing out spoilered cases left, right, and center. It's only natural that you would have a case on Boring at some point. You didn't treat her any differently than you treated anyone else.
The Eagersnake/Shadow cc battle was extremely advantageous for scum. Prism's play there took advantage of it despite him saying that Boring was scum at a very critical juncture. Yours is contrary to the scum wincon. If Boring was lynched D1, scum would have been in a much worse position. Prism's actual reason for scumreading Eagersnake was several levels of horrible that only sunk in once I really started thinking about and investigating it.
-
BlackVoid
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: September 15, 2016
- Pronoun: He
Post #3319
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:46 pm
Day 6 - Pages 128 and 129
@Prism
3194 - I did understand what you were saying about Shadow. You're saying that he's scum being disrespected despite doing his job well and that's why he replaced out. That's ridiculous. If you are scum, everyone dismissing you as bad town is a dream. They're the ones who'll get a shock after you win against them. I'm aware that you didn't say his arrogance was a scumtell. But even saying that he had no reason to be arrogant is a poor argument because it's perfectly possible that Shadow thought that the Eagersnake lynch was absolutely necessary. In fact, the way he reacted to it by saying that only scum would be against it makes perfect sense with the rest of his personality and opinion of himself. He still thinks he did the right thing by pushing that lynch.
@nn30
3205 - It's true that some scum don't talk to their partners but what you pointed out regarding Shadow and Prism is within the margin of error. Whether or not scum talk to their partners also depends on the circumstances of the game. I will say that sometimes scum tend to push their partners without interacting with them much because when you bus, you are doing it for show and for the towncred more than you do it to sort your partners alignment which is what I suspect with Prism. Shadow was townreading Boring for most D1 for supporting his Eagersnake push. I know the townread was dumb but it's something that makes sense from his perspective. So, he didn't feel the need to talk to her very much because he had dismissed her as town. If you are town, you should also know that drastic flips can come from town. Evidence: your play this game. Shadow's flip on you isn't damning at all, since new information came to light through flips, he naturally changed his reads. I don't think Shadow's argument that there was at least one scum bussing Boring was a bad one. It's reasonable to speculate on it and work it into everything else when making a decision.
@Prism
3194 - I did understand what you were saying about Shadow. You're saying that he's scum being disrespected despite doing his job well and that's why he replaced out. That's ridiculous. If you are scum, everyone dismissing you as bad town is a dream. They're the ones who'll get a shock after you win against them. I'm aware that you didn't say his arrogance was a scumtell. But even saying that he had no reason to be arrogant is a poor argument because it's perfectly possible that Shadow thought that the Eagersnake lynch was absolutely necessary. In fact, the way he reacted to it by saying that only scum would be against it makes perfect sense with the rest of his personality and opinion of himself. He still thinks he did the right thing by pushing that lynch.
@nn30
3205 - It's true that some scum don't talk to their partners but what you pointed out regarding Shadow and Prism is within the margin of error. Whether or not scum talk to their partners also depends on the circumstances of the game. I will say that sometimes scum tend to push their partners without interacting with them much because when you bus, you are doing it for show and for the towncred more than you do it to sort your partners alignment which is what I suspect with Prism. Shadow was townreading Boring for most D1 for supporting his Eagersnake push. I know the townread was dumb but it's something that makes sense from his perspective. So, he didn't feel the need to talk to her very much because he had dismissed her as town. If you are town, you should also know that drastic flips can come from town. Evidence: your play this game. Shadow's flip on you isn't damning at all, since new information came to light through flips, he naturally changed his reads. I don't think Shadow's argument that there was at least one scum bussing Boring was a bad one. It's reasonable to speculate on it and work it into everything else when making a decision.
-
Prism
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: August 19, 2015
Post #3321
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:05 pm
Bless you podoboq.
First two things I'm pointing out especially now that BV is putting all of his chips on it. This is what I mean when I say everything is being falsified/mischaracterized:
First two things I'm pointing out especially now that BV is putting all of his chips on it. This is what I mean when I say everything is being falsified/mischaracterized:
I wasn't scumreading him for it, I was saying it was NAI. Here's the post:In post 3308, BlackVoid wrote:His reasoning for voting Eagersnake is pretty much crap. Eagersnake apparently is playing it exactly like he should as scum? How on Earth was he expecting a town-Eagersnake to play it if Eager was reading Shadow as town? That consideration was never there and the vote was incredibly opportunistic.
Follow ups:In post 797, Prism wrote:Moving on, I think either Eager is mafia or they're both town. Eager is playing this exactly how he should as scum, because there's really no way for him to come out of this alive unless he convinces everyone they're both town. I believe he's ascetic-I don't buy so much that he's a town one. Implosion being one of the ones pushing that eager isn't mafia for it really doesn't ease my mind.
In post 1023, Prism wrote:MariaR wrote:WHAT IS THIS BS?????
The same thing I've been saying the past 5+ pages, nn30 and implosion are my top two scumreads and despite Eager playing his role strongly he's doing exactly what I'd expect if he was cc'd scum. If it flips town I wouldn't be shocked at either of you/Gamma turning out to be scum.
The post where I voted Eager after realizing I can't get Implosion:In post 1042, Prism wrote:eagerSnake wrote:You mean I'm doing exactly what I should do regardless of alignment, which makes my actions either
A) Genuine townplay
OR
B) Perfect scumplay
I don't think realizing that getting Shadow lynched is suicidal takes a mafia genius and you're not going to sell me on that one.
My reasoning for thinking Eager was scum was just like everyone else's-mechanical skepticism, followed by his reaction well after his "perfect scumplay/genuine townplay". His assertion that Shadow was town too was what was NAI-the Shadow lynch was straight up never happening Day 1 and everybody knew it. Scum Eager is forced to call him town, just like town Eager might arrive at the conclusion naturally.In post 1195, Prism wrote:Eager has pretty quickly switched from "perfect scumplay" to overplaying his hand hard with the constant "I'm town and I'll flip it watch out." It shows that he saw what was working and decided to keep approaching that angle without realizing the returns diminish significantly as you go. I really wanted to vote Implosion here but it's pretty clear to me that nobody is willing to do it-hit me up if that changes.
-
Prism
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: August 19, 2015
Post #3322
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:25 pm
Really? Because I gave a shit ton of reasoning. The best summary is this one but I've included others:In post 3307, BlackVoid wrote:His Boring push is similar. There's no real smoking gun. Just a lot of calling Boring scum for I don't know what reason. It's not like Implosion's suspicion which was absolutely dead-on.
In post 2421, Prism wrote:Only speaking for me but a few of the reasons I'm voting her are:
-Maria death
-Acknowledging why Gamma wouldn't be jailed but claims to be confused about why he died
-Voting LUV with me really doesn't convince me given the timing. LUV did something incredibly scummy and it doesn't take a town to see that. This may be confirmation bias speaking but a lot of her votes both today and other days seem opportunistic, ex. #1763 gives the possibility of her switching to Gamma. Kind of hypocritical of me to point out as I've said numerous times to make sure your vote is somewhere it counts, but the who it is question is still there.
-LUV voting Shadow then quickhammering Eager rather than just voting one of Eager/boring in a natural way to begin with is really strange if they're both town.
-Part of it is just me staring blankly at my computer, blankly looking at the names Dierfire/Grendel/boring/PenguinPower, and asking myself who's the most likely scum out of the 4.
Bonus: "Playing the WIFOM game and winning" in the context of a night kill does not include immediately using it to double bus the two people the kill would have been meant to protect. Call it more next level WIFOM if you want, I call it a one way ticket to being trapped solo in a town that has 3-4 mislynches and multiple PRs left.Prism wrote:There's literally no other reason to kill her [Maria] when if they weren't [correct], she's protecting scum and is a candidate for a mislynch later down the road. I think in general it points more towards boring being scum. I think not making NK speculation is a big mistake-every kill is made for a reason-out of perception of a threat, out of a desire to misdirect, or some combination thereof. My biggest strength as a player is playing the WIFOM game and winning.
boring's is a difficult read. #1609 I think brings up a good point on implosion but you don't have to be scum to find a good point. The frustration is hard to see through, last time I reread it I could see it being legitimate. I liked #1165 at the time but now I read things like this and just want to vote her for it:In post 1165, boring wrote:I'm frankly baffled by my wagon, or that it's lasted this long. I'd congratulate scum, but I don't think they've earned it.
What came after was better but I feel her posts are always going to come off the wrong way. However, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. The MariaR kill is a really, really good reason to vote her, especially if Gamma's report on Implosion is legitimate. She is my top fallback pick for a vote today if LUV doesn't pan out.
My transition was "eh what's the first reason I see to vote while I catch up" -> "This is really strange play" -> "Every time I read her posts her tone gets to me, is this a me problem or a her problem?" -> "Oh Eager probably claimed ascetic not think there'd be a town one, RIP dude" -> "Okay Eager flipped town, back to the drawing board, that Maria kill was strange. Maybe I wasn't wrong on boring?" into a whole bunch of other mishmash.In post 2421, Prism wrote:boring wrote:Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?
I've read it. Saying "I'd have to be stupid to do that" is not convincing. On the contrary, I'm suggesting that you are too intelligent to be surprised by scum's choice of kill given the knowledge that jailing Gamma is a waste of a jail, and that scum can risk one kill-less night. I also think that killing someone who is suspicious of you is a solid play. I see no reason to go on PP-the only questionable thing he's really done is overplay the brash behavior when he realized people townread it. That's scummy, sure, but that's definitely possible as town. If anything right now my second choice would be Grendel-my first impression of his case on Shadow is that he knows he's not winning vs. nn30 and needs a hail mary, especially if you're scum with him. Assuming no two death nights, scum needs at minimum 3 mislynches to win, and they're not going to make themselves. Somebody has to create them, and it's not happening if a red flip comes today.
-
Prism
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: August 19, 2015
Post #3323
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:35 pm
The irony here further is incredible:
BlackVoid wrote:His reasoning for voting Eagersnake is pretty much crap. Eagersnake apparently is playing it exactly like he should as scum? How on Earth was he expecting a town-Eagersnake to play it if Eager was reading Shadow as town?
In post 3303, BlackVoid wrote:If he's scum, he covered his bases really, really well.
BlackVoid wrote:The thing that's bugging me is that Prism's play is almost a bit too perfect. It's the kind of scumplay I would expect from someone that's very, very good at scum.
In post 3307, BlackVoid wrote:If he's scum, he's been pretty smooth with that and the reasons have flowed pretty well. But the more experience you have, the more believable you can make your busses.
-
Prism
- Mafia Scum
- Joined: August 19, 2015
Post #3324
(ISO)
» Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:40 pm
My prior posts are just the tip of the iceberg, this is a fullblown collapse on BV's end, there's a lot more coming.
Thanks for making me go through my own ISO, I forgot about this completely which probably deserves an answer:
Thanks for making me go through my own ISO, I forgot about this completely which probably deserves an answer:
In post 3170, Prism wrote:In post 3165, BlackVoid wrote:But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.
This isn't consistent with what you said when you first replaced in:In post 2899, BlackVoid wrote:I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.
Your reaction to nn is what I expect out of you as both alignments
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group