Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

nn30
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Post Post #3325  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:43 pm

@Prism - I want to see you scum hunt BV. I'm not interested in you defending yourself - that's a time sink.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3326  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:50 pm

Day 6 - Pages 130 to 133 (current)

@Prism

- I'm just curious what you mean by "power play" here. Can you elaborate a bit?

- Here's something you are missing. Your job isn't simply to lynch Boring. It's to figure out her alignment. If you are town, you first need to interact with her, engage her, and develop your read. You said yourself that you like interacting with people to get reads so just saying that you weren't talking to Boring because people won't be convinced by that misses the point that figuring out Boring's alignment is something you should have been doing if you had suspicions that she was scum (she seemed to be in your null-scum area for most of the early game).

- I don't understand how you buy this so easily. This isn't a particularly strong argument in context. People change their scumplay based on how a game unfolds.


@nn30

- I have no idea where Boring would put her buddies but I know it's not right at the top of her list. I'll also say I found it somewhat weird that she said Slandaar's replace out was scummy. It felt like inside info.

- I didn't find anything significant about and . The fact that he's responding to Boring in the way he did gives us a baseline for how he interacts with his partners. His response to Prism seems similar but I don't find it alignment-indicative.

- I think Boring was taking advantage of the cc situation. This is actually one of the things I wanted to bring up as for why my slot is town. If it was pre-determined by the scumteam that Shadow would counterclaim, wouldn't Boring have put Eager somewhere null to scum? Having Eager and Shadow both as top townreads and then having Shadow counterclaim Eager means Boring has to do a pretty big re-evaluation of her reads which shows it wasn't pre-planned. The scumteam was legit taken by surprise at this counterclaim. Then they all jumped at the opportunity. Boring on Eager and LUV on Shadow. It became apparent that they couldn't get the back to back lynches though so they seemed to have dropped the idea but I remember Boring pushing my predecessor as late as D4 so maybe not.

- This doesn't really sit right with me. Like I said, just because you decided in that scumgame, in that circumstance that bussing was a bad idea doesn't mean that you wouldn't do it in a completely different circumstance.

- I (and I assume most people who have played mafia for a while) tend to use similar kinds of rhetoric and similar case-making regardless of alignment. But it doesn't happen in the same way at the same time. Saying "you are kidding, right?" is more of a personality quirk. Looking over interactions is something I do as town all the time. It comes naturally to me as scum because I try to replicate my townplay the best I can.

- Implosion's post honestly didn't convince me one way or another. When I was convinced you were scum, it didn't sway me. Now when I've come around to thinking it's Prism, I guess Implosion was probably right.

- You are correct that it's totally different behavior. A few things account for this: There, I was replacing into a conf-town slot in LYLO, I had not followed that game, and was coming in with barely any information. So, I started talking to both of my lylo companions, asking them questions, and finally did a read of the game and cast my vote. Here, I was following the game since D1. I cheered when the Boring wagon cropped up. I gaped at my screen horrified when EagerSnake was getting lynched. I got annoyed when people started thinking one of the two had to be scum and Implosion and MariaR were the only ones making sense. I was surprised Boring survived as long as she did despite being scummy D1. So, when I replaced in, my reaction was noticeably different than in my other game. I wanted Boring dead as she lived way longer than she should have so started pushing the hell out of her.

- I noticed it independently, later realized you said the same thing regarding it being a co-ordinated bus.

- That's basically where I'm at. I know I'm town so I know one of you were wrong about the other and it was easier to see Prism as the experienced player pocketing to newer player than that he's been completely and utterly oblivious to you being scum. Obviously, this is a biased reading with knowledge that I'm town.

- Like I said, just because you didn't bus once doesn't mean you won't bus in a different game even if it's at the same time. This is not a strong argument and even if you are town, I'm not making my decision based off of that.

- You made a case on Boring. You hopped onto a town led wagon in fifth place. Both of these are objective facts, not "ideas" that I have.

- It's true that there could be scum motivation behind posting a weak read on Dierfire and letting town lynch him without my assistance. But put yourself in my shoes: I'm town. I had a weak read on Dierfire. I thought it was most likely you but wondered if I was wrong and everyone else was right. I didn't want to take a chance at derailing a scum lynch and game end. I wasn't hard-townreading Dierfire so with a read like that, it'd be impossible to convince everyone that they were wrong.



I think that's it until Prism returned. Going to tackle these directly.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3327  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:01 pm

In post 3321, Prism wrote:The post where I voted Eager after realizing I can't get Implosion:
In post 1195, Prism wrote:Eager has pretty quickly switched from "perfect scumplay" to overplaying his hand hard with the constant "I'm town and I'll flip it watch out." It shows that he saw what was working and decided to keep approaching that angle without realizing the returns diminish significantly as you go. I really wanted to vote Implosion here but it's pretty clear to me that nobody is willing to do it-hit me up if that changes.
My reasoning for thinking Eager was scum was just like everyone else's-mechanical skepticism, followed by his reaction well after his "perfect scumplay/genuine townplay". His assertion that Shadow was town too was what was NAI-the Shadow lynch was straight up never happening Day 1 and everybody knew it. Scum Eager is forced to call him town, just like town Eager might arrive at the conclusion naturally.

You said that either Eager was scum or that both were town so straight up, you buy the possibility of two town ascetics. That should never have been a reason for you to vote Eager. You've admitted that pretty much everything is not alignment indicative except for Eager saying "I'm town and I'll flip it, watch out." That's a crap reason to vote him over your other suspect Boring.

nn30
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Post Post #3328  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:06 pm

In post 3326, BlackVoid wrote:3254 - This doesn't really sit right with me. Like I said, just because you decided in that scumgame, in that circumstance that bussing was a bad idea doesn't mean that you wouldn't do it in a completely different circumstance.


You seem to be thinking that I was referring to the specific game in question. In post 29 of the scum PT, I say: "All the theory I've read has talked about scum bussing each other as being overrated."

That's a very general statement - one which is not very subject to change based on context.

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Post Post #3329  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:17 pm

Sorry, have had to pause due to more real life issues, but there will be more posts tonight and I should be able to carve out an okay chunk of tomorrow and all of Wednesday.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3330  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:17 pm

@Prism, it's true that you pushed Boring after LUV's lynch but Implosion and others were not buying her as town and it didn't seem like the town at large thought she was clear (at least from memory of my re-read). You could have noticed that Boring was getting lynched anyways and decided that you needed to double-bus. That's what getting to me. Town rarely have "perfect-looking play." Town doesn't know who scum is so play is typically more chaotic and sometimes horrendously wrong. Yours wasn't. You always had Boring and LUV as suspects. Yet, it took four days to lynch them. Both D1 and D3, you hopped onto some very opportunistic town lynches, first with Eagersnake and then with Grendel.

When I was reading as a spectator, yeah I thought you were scum initially, then the LUV push made me second-guess but I stopped following the game really closely and didn't have anyone I was suspecting in your place. When you posted that replace out request, initial reaction was "oh, well I was wrong. No way Prism posts a replace out request here."

In any case, doesn't really seem like you are trying to figure out the game. The notable thing is that both I and nn30 had considered both options. You haven't. You stuck with your nn30 read for I-don't-know-what reason and it just feels like you are having trouble trying to come up with a new read because nn30 was the guy you wanted to bring to endgame. The only time you really question him is when I was attacking him and he made a case on you. But once I turned on you, it's suddenly back to me being scum. It all reads very convenient. I've made my decision and I think it's time we just vote each other.

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Post Post #3331  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:19 pm

@Prism - as of right now, the game ends in 30 hours. The mod has not spoken as to whether or not the game will be extended.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3332  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:19 pm

Key thoughts I'm basing this decision off of:

Prism's vote on Eagersnake while nn30 pushed a Boring case.
Prism's sticky townread on nn30 reading like manipulation.
Opportunistic switch to Grendel and just not seeming like he was trying to read Boring or LUV and coming off as informed.
I just think nn30's ridiculous level of activity and playing both sides in lylo would be hard to fake as scum.

VOTE: Prism

nn30
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Post Post #3333  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:22 pm

In post 3330, BlackVoid wrote:I've made my decision and I think it's time we just vote each other.


My heart just skipped a beat.

I don't want that kind of pressure on me.

But I kind of do because I want to be in control of my own destiny.

But I don't because I'm obviously not very good at this game.

Bleh.

nn30
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Post Post #3334  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:23 pm

!!!!!

.....

@Prism - get in here and make your alignment obvious to me so that I can make the correct decision.

Prism
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Post Post #3335  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:23 pm

In post 3331, nn30 wrote:@Prism - as of right now, the game ends in 30 hours. The mod has not spoken as to whether or not the game will be extended.
Not my choice. My fault, not my choice.

You'll have more than you'll know to go through in the morning. I realize I've been full of hollow time promises, and I can elaborate more on why if you want, but I'm here to play mafia, not give you a sob story or justify my inactivity.

P-Edit: Don't know what to say other than sweet.

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Post Post #3336  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:23 pm

If you want to wait like 2 hours, sure.

nn30
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Post Post #3337  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:26 pm

Well we have (at least) 30. So yeah, go for it man.

podoboq
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Post Post #3338  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:27 pm

Official Vote Count 6.13
LynchingWith 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Prism (1): BlackVoid

Not Voting (2): nn30, Prism


Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-16 20:15:00)


The deadline has been extended.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3339  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:28 pm

Nice! It's been a really long time since I've voted wrong in lylo. I've been mislynched in lylo once offsite but won all my other lylo games as town, and it's been nearly two years since I've actually cast a wrong vote so I'm pretty stoked to have solved this game.

@nn30, I'm going to lay out exactly why Shadow_Step is town. Given I haven't been here for most of the game, I feel that this is necessary. Also, note that I'm not taking the route that scum just LOVE to take which is "I can't answer for any of predecessor's actions" because I have been explaining to you what he was thinking all along.

In the meantime, if you have any other doubts about me, bring them up and we'll go over them.

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Post Post #3340  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:29 pm

The deadline is on Friday 4:15 PM PST. Just putting this out here so I know when it is.

nn30
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Post Post #3341  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:31 pm

3339 feels very genuine.

Here's where I am - and I want Prism's response on this.

Shadow_Step doesn't piss on me on his way out of the game as scum. I can't see a way around this.

@Prism - post all the walls you want, but this is what I'm hung up on. I don't see a way for scum Shadow_Step to diss me before he replaces out.

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Post Post #3342  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:34 pm

In post 3339, BlackVoid wrote:"I can't answer for any of predecessor's actions"


Funny, I spent all of Art Mafia saying that about the guy I replaced as town.

Go on though.

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Post Post #3343  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:41 pm

In post 3335, Prism wrote:Not my choice. My fault, not my choice.


What do you mean by this?

nn30
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Post Post #3344  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:46 pm

@BV - when I did meta dives of you, your scum game felt a lot more like this game than your completed town game. When you subbed into that ridiculously long game the first thing I noticed was you talking to players whereas you hopped into this game and just started dictating to us what you thought. This dictation was also present in your completed scum game.

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Post Post #3345  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:53 pm

I explained it here:
In post 3326, BlackVoid wrote:You are correct that it's totally different behavior. A few things account for this: There, I was replacing into a conf-town slot in LYLO, I had not followed that game, and was coming in with barely any information. So, I started talking to both of my lylo companions, asking them questions, and finally did a read of the game and cast my vote. Here, I was following the game since D1. I cheered when the Boring wagon cropped up. I gaped at my screen horrified when EagerSnake was getting lynched. I got annoyed when people started thinking one of the two had to be scum and Implosion and MariaR were the only ones making sense. I was surprised Boring survived as long as she did despite being scummy D1. So, when I replaced in, my reaction was noticeably different than in my other game. I wanted Boring dead as she lived way longer than she should have so started pushing the hell out of her.

Did you want me to elaborate or did you just miss this post? As far as my scumgame, I replaced in and posted my reads because that's what would be expected. When I replace in midgame, I post my reads and push suspects. It's what I do as town and what I try to replicate as scum. Replacing in as conf-town in lylo is different because the game hinges on my decision.

nn30
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Post Post #3346  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:56 pm

Elaborate - I read that already. I see why you behaved the way you did in your town game, but why does it feel like you did a lot of dictating in both this and your scum game?

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Post Post #3347  (ISO)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:57 pm

If by "dictating," you mean pushing my reads, that's a standard thing I'd do regardless of what my alignment was.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3348  (ISO)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:00 am

Pushing lynches on my scumreads is how I win games as town which is what I did here. I had Boring as a really solid scumread so I pushed there. As scum, I'm not going to do something entirely different or that would be a dead give-away. I replace in, decide what reads I want to fake and push those fake reads in a way that I think I would push them as town.

nn30
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Post Post #3349  (ISO)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:04 am

I think the meta read isn't super useful here. You say that your behavior in town game was due to subbing into a conf town slot and talking. This makes sense. Without another town game to compare to, I can't really get much more out of this.

What made you so confident that Prism was scum? I know you've put this in other posts but you flipped pretty hard. You've been on me since you subbed in. I want more on this.

P-edit: Hah, 'meta isn't useful lol' I have a meta question. Your scum game, you pushed the 'opportunistic angle' on one of the townies. You did that this game as well. Why?

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