Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Prism]

@Prism - post all the walls you want, but this is what I'm hung up on. I don't see a way for scum Shadow_Step to diss me before he replaces out.

Can my last few posts and think them through? BV's last two pages are a trainwreck and I don't see a way for them to come from town, and that's trying to be as objective as possible. I have more I want to point out-a lot more indicative than that-but it doesn't make sense to until you process what I've already thrown out there-especially the last one. I posted the easy stuff first, that's not even the heavyhitters.

I don't see what you see about the diss. It's a final parting shot, I can speculate that it's just continuing to play to his alignment on the way out or that he was even legitimately frustrated (and I think it was the latter-I think he sincerely very frustrated). What makes it town to you?

[nn30]

I see it as town because of this.

1) Obviously I'm town (since I haven't voted you)

2) Scum!Shadow would know that I'm town. I don't see a world where he calls me a clueless newbie on his way out the door. He should pride himself for being part of why I've been chasing my tail all game.

3) Town!Shadow, on the other hand, would be pissed at me for not seeing anything he's said all game. I see a world where town!Shadow disses me on the way out the door.

Also, I'm not reading BV's last page as a trainwreck. I'm noticing a lot of the same things he is. There's the question of whether or not he figured out how I was reading the game and fit the things he's 'noticed' with that but he's also disagreed with a lot of my associative takes. It seems balanced enough that these things actually just represent what he thinks rather than his trying to manipulate me.

[BlackVoid]

My scumread of you wasn't opportunistic. There was something about your play that I thought was really shifty and like cheeky scum. Mostly, the way you changed positions was was hard to keep track of. One moment you'd push one read, and then you'd push another. Something about that felt weird.

When I replaced in, I thought Prism was for-sure town because of how he got frustrated with Shadow_Step and needed time to "cool down." I just couldn't believe that he would go so far as scum (and I'm sure he'd justify it in endgame by saying that he was just frustrated with Shadow overall). So, with that townread on Prism, a hard scumread on Boring, and Implosion and Zornos being clear, that just left you and Dierfire. I wasn't completely sure which of you it was but I was leaning towards it being you.

You then responded by scumreading me. I thought you figured that it was going to be you vs me at endgame and decided to scumread me to set up for that. That made me more confident you were scum so I doubled down.

The first ping I got from Prism was when he started arguing that he would in fact post that replace out request as scum. It seemed like he was trying to justify it and refute my reasoning that if he was scum, he was unsportsmanlike. He really seemed bothered by that implication. The next ping I got was when he started highlighting Shadow's ego and making all sorts of ridiculous arguments about how he wasn't justified to have the ego he did. That felt like he was trying to make you angry at my slot as opposed to honestly believing what he said.

The other thing is what I mentioned before when I took a break from the game. It seemed like the evidence on the surface pointed towards you but it just didn't feel right: you didn't push Boring much after D1 or after the LUV lynch and Prism's record seemed pristine. And yet, you put so much content in the thread in so many different directions I had a hard time pulling the trigger. So, I looked at the alternative: Prism has a low rate of posting, is usually concise and to-the-point, and he's been accurate with his reads, yet his analysis wasn't very strong. "LUV plagiarized me" is a weak thing to pick up on and that he was right felt more like an informed stance. A close look at his jump onto the Eager wagon was what finally sold it for me. That reasoning was total nonsense and it got a mislynch when it looked like scum was in trouble.

I really was hesitant to vote anyone but you because I felt like I had you pegged since I replaced in and it would have sucked if I let you endgame me so I was somewhat stubborn about that read. But ultimately, the evidence stacked up and it became apparent that Prism was playing the long-game by strategically bussing his partners.

[Prism]

I wrote this and realized I've been really snappy today so my apologies. It's just been a really bad week, and despite promising to come into today with everything I had I really haven't, for reasons both inside and outside my control, and that's led to me getting more frustrated when it doesn't help.

2) Scum!Shadow would know that I'm town. I don't see a world where he calls me a clueless newbie on his way out the door. He should pride himself for being part of why I've been chasing my tail all game.

3) Town!Shadow, on the other hand, would be pissed at me for not seeing anything he's said all game. I see a world where town!Shadow disses me on the way out the door.

I don't see why scum Shadow would make that comment when he's been playing the "nn is a dumb newb" angle all game and probably even meant it. His replace out makes 0 sense if he wasn't frustrated to begin with, the parting comment means literally nothing to me and I don't get how to convince you of that. I've already explained why Shadow's frustration was likely legitimate, if you're looking for me to convince you that it wasn't I can't do that.

Also, I'm not reading BV's last page as a trainwreck. I'm noticing a lot of the same things he is.

That would be because you're not looking in the right places, so again, can you actually give my posts a shot? The reason I scumread you to begin at the start of the game was because you weren't reading what I was saying when you responded, before I realized it wasn't purposeful, and that's happening again.

[nn30]

1) Sorry that you're going through some stuff right now. Game aside, I feel for you.

2) I did read your posts. It's putting a lot on me to read the quotes you've presented in the same way that you are. On a more macro level, BV's analysis today has been a lot better than yours. I see your recent posts as NAI. More than wanting to see you defend yourself, I want to see you find scum motivation in Shadow's posts. Any good scum can defend themselves. I want to find a good reason to scum read BV rather than a good reason to town read you.

3) Where do you suggest I look?

[nn30]

@Prism - gather yourself, come back tomorrow. We've got till Friday for me to make my decision.

[Prism]

Thanks for understanding. I still want to do as much as possible even if I can't play up to my usual standards, as I've clearly dropped the ball all day at the worst possible time.

It's putting a lot on me to read the quotes you've presented in the same way that you are.

Yes, but you don't really have a choice, and my quotes haven't been for you to scrutinize with a magnifying glass-it's to get you to see that these claims are blatantly false.

Example:

But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.

The other thing is what I mentioned before when I took a break from the game. It seemed like the evidence on the surface pointed towards you but it just didn't feel right: you didn't push Boring much after D1 or after the LUV lynch and Prism's record seemed pristine. And yet, you put so much content in the thread in so many different directions I had a hard time pulling the trigger. So, I looked at the alternative: Prism has a low rate of posting, is usually concise and to-the-point, and he's been accurate with his reads, yet his analysis wasn't very strong. "LUV plagiarized me" is a weak thing to pick up on and that he was right felt more like an informed stance. A close look at his jump onto the Eager wagon was what finally sold it for me. That reasoning was total nonsense and it got a mislynch when it looked like scum was in trouble.

I want you to read these. He claims here a few things, but the key ones here are:

1. He stopped scumreading me Day 2. My LUV push eroded his scumfeels for me.
2. My play was "pristine", I've "played perfectly as scum", "covered all my bases", etc.
3. My reads have been accurate all game.

I want you to really think through everything that BV has said about me, not just today but previously.

I played a perfect scumgame, too perfect, so much that it's hard to believe I'm mafia-he's thought I was town basically all along, but this isn't true. He had me as mafia before.

I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.

On Prism, I'll just give you the stuff I remember. I didn't like his preference for lynching Eager over Boring. I didn't like his Implosion push. I'm not going to go into the nitty-gritty of every argument as I'm confident he's town now for that attempted replace out. There was also POE as most others did something I thought was town.

See the bolded which is a clear contradiction, and one that's virtually impossible to make if he were town. That's a lot more than just forgetting something/having trouble keeping memory straight. That's a straight up lie.

Second he's playing a very manipulative game with regards to how he's portraying my reads. On the one hand my reads have been impeccable, highly accurate, etc. but simultaneously they've been atrocious like on Implosion. I'm going to go back over my LUV reasoning in a bit, and explain it more clearly even though I thought I did a good job Day 2. With boring I wound up being dead wrong until it was literally just her and Dierfire to choose from. I was the first to own up to blowing the game by voting Grendel over her, even though IIRC it was only after you requested me to. Even if if I were, my reads being right are the last reason you want to lynch me.

[nn30]

1) You point out a contradiction. I scum read Gamma for this (I was wrong) probably Penguin (I was wrong) and, frankly, I've contradicted myself all game. I don't see this as scummy. I see this as indication of reads evolving.

2) I do think it's a little wierd that you entered the game, FoS both currently dead scum, and then let Eager die D1 and Grendel die D3. I agree with his assessment.

3) You're still defending yourself. Go find things that Shadow did that aren't related to you and give me interpretations of those. Go find things BV did that don't involve you and find scum motivations for those actions. I'm not interested in you defending yourself; you'll do so, and do so well, regardless of your alignment. I want your analysis.

[Prism]

3) Where do you suggest I look?

I can try and explain again.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Shadow_step. You are town. You have been wrong literally every day of the game, leading on town after town. You claimed a right to the LUV lynch but never voted him and never pushed him. In this alternate universe I guess you can justify this to yourself as still being right and claim victory for it. Your ego grows and inflates more over the coming days despite you just lynching more town. You thinks you've nailed the mafia-it's boring and Prism. Prism, your scumread and the person you're trying to get lynched today, disagrees with your ego and assertiveness. Eventually Prism replaces out over the ego. In a change of heart, Shadow turns a new leaf and offers to replace out of the game for his top scumread's sake. You make sure to give a parting shot to that darned nn30 who prevented you from lynching scum back to back before turning down Prism's offer to both stay and work things out.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a Shadow_step again. You are mafia. You have convinced everyone you are town. You made a risky play Day 1 and it's paid off in spades, you're just getting to trash everyone knowing you're playing them all for suckers. Your ego inflates more as the days go by, even though you're frustrated with that darn nn30 who is still throwing a wrench in your plans and occasionally FoSing you even when everyone else hasn't. Calling him a noob seems to be getting to him and Prism both, and I mean how can he not townread your sick play? The whole game fucking hates you and trashes you but that's okay because you're clearly a rational, levelheaded person who is okay with not getting credit despite thinking it's due considering your stellar play, evidenced by your rational, levelheaded posts that matched your accomplishments ingame. It looks like Prism hates you so much that he's about to replace out over it. You really have been a dick all game, you have to say. You still hate that darned nn30 too. You think you hate this game. Why do you not make this post?

[Prism]

1) You point out a contradiction. I scum read Gamma for this (I was wrong) probably Penguin (I was wrong) and, frankly, I've contradicted myself all game. I don't see this as scummy. I see this as indication of reads evolving.

That's not an evolving read. This is his historical read. The contradiction is not just forgetfulness.

He said the LUV flip made him townread me, but this is fundamentally untrue, in a historical sense, and not in a way that is easy to forget.

He never townread me until he replaced in, only thinking I was town based on the replace out. But that isn't what he says here. The fact that his flip comes at a time when I'm obviously not switching and probably wouldn't even have time to consider his arguments even if I might, whereas you instantly bit when you threw out that it might be me, is telling as fuck.

Go find things that Shadow did that aren't related to you and give me interpretations of those. Go find things BV did that don't involve you and find scum motivations for those actions. I'm not interested in you defending yourself; you'll do so, and do so well, regardless of your alignment. I want your analysis.

I'm already working on doing this but I want to scream, this is how I scumhunt. It's the reason I asked for people's opinions on me 500x over, and is what wound up catching LUV. It's fine to want more than that but if you're just disinterested in anything else you're turning a blind eye to my biggest strength here.

[Prism]

I missed his explanation on the last page.

When I was reading as a spectator, yeah I thought you were scum initially, then the LUV push made me second-guess but I stopped following the game really closely and didn't have anyone I was suspecting in your place. When you posted that replace out request, initial reaction was "oh, well I was wrong. No way Prism posts a replace out request here."

Still fundamentally different from what was portrayed and took twice around to get it, and there's still more I want to get to and will.

[Prism]

Okay, sorry, but the reread on Shadow is going to have to wait until tomorrow. I've been awake for almost 56 hours straight and I feel like death. I'll be able to post more around 5 PM PST tomorrow.

My parting words for the night even though I know they're not what you prefer to hear is more refutation of what I still am adamant is a BV trainwreck.

3194 - I did understand what you were saying about Shadow. You're saying that he's scum being disrespected despite doing his job well and that's why he replaced out. That's ridiculous. If you are scum, everyone dismissing you as bad town is a dream. They're the ones who'll get a shock after you win against them. I'm aware that you didn't say his arrogance was a scumtell. But even saying that he had no reason to be arrogant is a poor argument because it's perfectly possible that Shadow thought that the Eagersnake lynch was absolutely necessary. In fact, the way he reacted to it by saying that only scum would be against it makes perfect sense with the rest of his personality and opinion of himself. He still thinks he did the right thing by pushing that lynch.

Wtf is this? Shadow had an ego and you didn't understand why so he's scum? You claimed to have played mafia for five years so surely it would occur to you that there are so many players who look at their town play through rose colored glasses. Who think that their scum lynch rate is absolutely awesome and when they are wrong, they just blame it on the person they mislynched because "he shouldn't have been so damn scummy!" Shadow being convinced that the Eager lynch was necessary was frustrating but is hardly something that you would never see from town. This entire post reads like you are manipulating nn30 and trying to make him angry that Shadow called him a newbie. Shadow's replace out was absolutely not likely to happen as mafia. I'm not even saying it wasn't alignment-indicative. I'm flat-out saying it's a towntell. As mafia, if people are dismissing you as VI-town or calling you arrogant-town, you thrive on that, you win the game, and you show them who's the VI. But as town, being disrespected can be frustrating and I assume that's why he's had enough and replaced out because of that.

This is a serious double standard here. The base claim is that for someone egotistical, you only get indignant over your quality of play midgame if you're town. I definitely have gotten indignant as mafia on numerous occasions. I'm willing to bet you and BV have too. I'm definitely willing to bet Shadow did. The claim that Shadow is prone to bias and irrationality as town but a by definition an old martial arts master moving chess pieces, chuckling behind the curtain, as mafia, free from the pitfalls of pride and selfdelusion, is ridiculous.

Also, trying to use the fact that I'm directly responding to your question about that specific post when I consider it a nonevent as evidence of further mastermind Prism manipulation is borderline hilarious. I don't even get what you find town about it let alone know how to use it to rile you up. The only thing I've riled up all game was myself over Shadow.

Maybe I'm so tired and fatigued from this marathon of a week that I can't see straight, maybe I'm not doing a good job verbalizing my thoughts, maybe I just haven't verbalized enough of them since I still have so many floating around from the paragraphs upon paragraphs of garbage selfcontradictions, but I don't see how you can view anything in the last two pages as anything but a trainwreck when you compare his statements to reality and really try to match up his thought process.

[Prism]

Thank you to both of you for voting to extend, by the way, I really appreciate it.

[Prism]

A lot of what I said was definitely unclear, now that I'm better rested I can hopefully explain a bit better.

1) You point out a contradiction. I scum read Gamma for this (I was wrong) probably Penguin (I was wrong) and, frankly, I've contradicted myself all game. I don't see this as scummy. I see this as indication of reads evolving.

To highlight the difference here, Gamma and Penguin would give a read and have it magically change a page or two later, like they forgot that they scumread someone or why as they moved on. This is simple forgetfulness and difficulty keeping track of a quickpaced game.

This is different from BV's contradiction. BV is saying that he always townread me for the LUV flip, but his entrance flat out says this wasn't true. This isn't a read that could have changed over time or gotten lost in the flow. He made it in his entrance to the game.

You forget minor things or have your thinking change with new things. Nothing new happened in between BV replacing in to now that would change his read on me at the point he entered. The thing he would have had to forget is not a small thing, it's a complete 180. Neither of these explanations adds up if he were town.

Go find things that Shadow did that aren't related to you and give me interpretations of those. Go find things BV did that don't involve you and find scum motivations for those actions. I'm not interested in you defending yourself; you'll do so, and do so well, regardless of your alignment. I want your analysis.

I'm already working on doing this but I want to scream, this is how I scumhunt. It's the reason I asked for people's opinions on me 500x over, and is what wound up catching LUV. It's fine to want more than that but if you're just disinterested in anything else you're turning a blind eye to my biggest strength here.

Clarifying this some more, I'm not just defending myself, I'm showing why these viewpoints are unlikely to come from town. The way I scumread people is to try and get into their mind and add up whether or not what they're saying is really what they'd be thinking as town, which amounts to my best guess. The thing I have the most knowledge on, by a mile, is my own play, in the sense that if someone starts bullshitting-I can immediately tell. The strength that came from me questioning reads on me all game was doublesided, 1) It served as my best vehicle for reading them and 2) It serves to cement reads on me if they turn out to have basis.

I am doing analysis on BV and more will be done, but you have to realize that the easiest way for me to show you he's scum is to show why what he's saying is bullshit. It's me playing to my strength and the way I've always played, not me dodging analyzing BV. This is the vehicle for the analysis.

[nn30]

@BV - I want you to try to refute what Prism has just put on the thread.

[nn30]

Found this. Might point to why a scum Shadow_Step would see the need to take out the town ascetic in Eager Snake.

viewtopic.php?t=68324&f=90&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=27924&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go

Time frame is similar too.

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 6.14

Lynching

With 3 votes in play, it takes 2 to lynch.

Prism (1): BlackVoid

Not Voting (2): nn30, Prism

Deadline: (expired on 2016-12-16 20:15:00)

[BlackVoid]

Prism's entire premise that "contradictions" are scummy is wrong. Oftentimes, town contradict themselves because they are going over multiple theories and possibilities while trying to solve the game. These tend to come out at various points and sometimes seem inconsistent with previously stated viewpoints. I'd go so far as to say it's rarer for scum to contradict themselves because they already know the answers and have a fairly linear story that they want to sell.

As far as my read as a spectator, I had Boring, Prism, and LUV as my D1 scumteam guess as I followed the game. With LUV's lynch and scumflip, I started wondering whether I was wrong on Prism but I didn't have anyone else I could solidly slot as scum. Maybe Grendel? I wasn't paying much attention to the game at that point as I felt chances of replacing in were slim. But it was definitely a case of me thinking about both Prism-town and Prism-scum possibilities. After Grendel started towntelling and flipped town, I started wondering if it was Prism again but it wasn't really a strong, confident read. When he posted the replace out request, initial reaction was a strong "Prism is town." When I replaced in, I pointed out that I thought it was Boring, Prism, and LUV but with that replace out request, I started thinking it was you or Dierfire.

Prism claims that my entire walls are riddled with contradictions. He's probably right. Heck, I called you scummy for playing both sides, then decided that your playing both sides comes from town. Interpreting events differently and considering multiple theories is just something that happens when you're comparing two sets of evidence and trying to figure out which one fits.

That's where Prism's consistency is scummy. He hasn't been doing this. I think he predicted that I'd be most likely to vote him upon a re-read of the thread because I was scumreading his slot save for that one replace-out which I saw as a towntell whereas you and he were townreading each other throughout. So, he continued with the townread he had on you while setting himself up against me. There aren't contradictions in his posts or evolving stances where he suspects you for something, then thinks it's town and so on. There's just a linear story crafted in a way that he thinks would appeal to you. When you push him, he pushes back (mildly) but always concludes that you're more likely town - almost in a way to discourage you from attacking him.

Also, I have put in a very genuine effort at solving the game. I think this is apparent. Prism's response is to take posts out of context, slap together pairs of quotes and go "oh, look contradiction!"

[nn30]

Shadow's pre-claim reads list:

These are my reads

Town
(nn30, Zoronos)
(Grendel, boring)
(DF, implosion)
(Maria, LUV)
(PP, GE)
(Eager)
Scum

Haven't read prisms latest posts so I'll sort him later.

@BV - this is Shadow's read list from before the Eager CC. I want you to read the game up until that point and, based on how Eager had been playing, justify these reads.

[BlackVoid]

Found this. Might point to why a scum Shadow_Step would see the need to take out the town ascetic in Eager Snake.

viewtopic.php?t=68324&f=90&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=27924&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go

Time frame is similar too.

He complained about balance in a different game but it's still a stretch for him to counterclaim ascetic as scum and risk being lynched in a one for one. That would make the game even more skewed towards the town. He can't have known that he wouldn't be instantly lynched right after.

[nn30]

He claimed to love WIFOM. He also claimed this in an unrelated PT in a mafia game he was playing. Him taking this risk isn't out the realm of possibility. The time frame the scum PT I just showed you indicates that he knows that a town he was playing against had an ascetic claim and that his ability to win was damaged by this. It is in the realm of possibility that he would target an ascetic claim in a following scum game for this reason.

[nn30]

I've been hinting at it all game. Nn is an idiotic townie who can only see what's at the surface

This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy.
On the phone right now so maria can you link to 649?
I had a guilty on maria on night 1. Day 2 I didn't start the day screaming Maria scum maria scum. I pushed her for reads.

This is also a straight up lie. I didn't do this at the time - but his first action on D2 is to vote Maria.

[Prism]

Okay, well that was a great wall saying "Prism is twisting my words and taking things out of context and is mafia for it" while admitting in that post that you are at minimum doing the same thing, but how about explaining how you magically forget that no, you never townread me through the replace out, both according to your Excel sheet and according to your words.

The most recent one is just digging yourself a bigger hole:

Some reads switched around but I stopped updating when I felt that I figured out the scumteam through POE.

With LUV's lynch and scumflip, I started wondering whether I was wrong on Prism but I didn't have anyone else I could solidly slot as scum. Maybe Grendel? I wasn't paying much attention to the game at that point as I felt chances of replacing in were slim. But it was definitely a case of me thinking about both Prism-town and Prism-scum possibilities. After Grendel started towntelling and flipped town, I started wondering if it was Prism again but it wasn't really a strong, confident read.

[Prism]

I've been focusing way too much on this even though there's a lot others to tackle so I'll try and dig through some Shadow posts now.

[nn30]

@Prism - check out 3368 please. I'd like your take on it as well.