Shadow_step Mini Normal Review

[mastin2]

Simple is better, as has been conveyed already.
I can't in good conscience ever allow an all-PR scumteam to pass review (it's absurdly overpowered), and even a two-PR scumteam is overkill. Towns need some level of "base" PRs, and scum do NOT need a counter to every existing town PR.
But on the other hand: towns--while inherently dumb--are not this incompetent. Neapolitan is a cop-lite. Watcher is one of the strongest town PRs in existence. Rolestopper functions as a stronger doctor, shutting down the mafia's PRs/kill. Friendly Neighbor is a confirmation role, IC lite. They hold a lot of modifiers, sure, yes. But I don't think, even with these modifiers, they are something I'd be comfortable letting through.

Plus, game right now is ridiculously swingy.

I'd recommend getting rid of the scum roleblocker for a start (that's quite literally the strongest scum role in existence we haven't blacklisted), and then one of the other scum roles as well.
On the town side of things, I'd recommend just having three ungated roles, or four roles with one or two of them slightly gated.
Friendly Neighbor, Follower, Voyeur, and then something like a 2-shot rolestopper I could maybe see as more balanced: weaker information roles, with some protection to give them support.

[mastin2]

Friendly Neighbor, Follower, Voyeur, and then something like a 2-shot rolestopper I could maybe see as more balanced: weaker information roles, with some protection to give them support.

Further thought, if you went with this, a scum 2-shot rolecop would work well. To my eye, that works REALLY well.

As I said, the roleblocker is a ridiculously strong role I heavily recommend against using.
The JOAT's powers are a ninja and a strongman. Strongman is ridiculously strong, and I consider it up there in roleblockers in strength: even gated as a one-shot, it might be a bit much. Also, given that this is a follower (a type of tracker), a ninja is gigantic "fuck you" to the town: tracker-type roles are only of marginal use to towns anyway. They require precise targeting to be of any use, and are best when there's only one scum left. A ninja removes their utilization altogether. (The ninja is mostly to counter the strength of a watcher, just like a godfather is for a cop.) So, I'd recommend against the JOAT.

But with a 2-shot rolecop, the scum have a chance to gain information about the town's PRs, yet not so overwhelmingly so that they are able to instantly shut them down. The 2-shot rolestopper means that the scum can, at worst, let the town gain a mislynch if both rolestop shots block a kill. The town can get some minor confirmation from the voyeur and the follower, including some potential innocents, but the only possible guilty is a follower tracking the kill.

It's simple, but it'd work. About as little swing as possible, town has some strength, scum aren't defenseless, yet scum aren't in possession of perfect counters to the town PRs.

[mastin2]

Make RB -> vengeful

I believe that scum vigs are blacklisted, and while a vengekill may not be the same as a vig kill, it can be arguably even worse, and I do not think this would go over well, so I would have to say 'no' to this.

Also, as I previously said: you're giving the scum the strongest possible roles in the game.
They don't need the help.

Strongman is ridiculously strong, especially up against weakened protective roles.
Ninja is ridiculously strong, especially up against tracker roles and/or a weakened watcher. I'd have no problem with a gated ninja against a full watcher, but a ninja in ANY capacity (even 1x) against a gated watcher is a big fat "no" to me.
Roleblocker is a ridiculously strong role, able to shut down any of the town's roles, save for the target of a rolestop.

Also, a masonizer should absolutely not be two-shot. Plus, being in the same game as a Neapolitan is another "no".
Three roles with two of them as super-strong would be okay to me if they didn't particularly work well together, but Neapolitan and masonizer have such ridiculous synchronicity that it'd be hard to make the town lose a game with them both in it, even if they were both gated.

[mastin2]

But like I really want an all PR mafia team.

If you want an all-PR mafia team, we're talking things like:
1-shot rolecop
1-shot roleblocker
1-shot ninja

Yes. One shot each, of weak scum roles.

I'm dead serious.
Anything more than that is overkill.

There's a difference between making a game fun, and making a game be unbalanced. Too much power is the latter.

Which is why I keep saying: simpler would be better. You don't need to have complexity to make a fun game. A functional game is ten times more enjoyable than a dysfunctional game, and I guarantee you that if you try to make the game 'interesting' with swingy roles, it's going to be dysfunctional.

[mastin2]

1 shot Strongman
Joat[Rolecop + RB]
Neighboriser odd night

Town
Vanilla cop
2 shot watcher
Rolestopper even night
Desperado
Fruit Vendor
5 VTs

If the JOAT was turned into a 1- or 2-shot rolecop, and the strongman was substituted out for something like encryptor, I would say we'd be closer to being in business.

I'll be fully honest, the setup in question still wouldn't exactly leave me happy, but I feel like it'd be approaching a fair compromise of being what you envisioned, while still satisfying the requirements.

So for clarity, that would be:
Encryptor
1/2-x Rolecop
Odd-night Neighborizer

vs.

Vanilla Cop
2-x Watcher
Even-night Rolestopper
Desperado
Fruit Vendor
VT x 5

As a starting point. (It may require a little more nerfing on the town's part.)

[mastin2]

I was under the impression there was still discussion going on between you and mhsmith.

[mastin2]

Drop the gunsmith and I'd be fine with it, but as-is, I'd say the town's too strong.
Gunsmith has a miller in the form of the desperado (who can EASILY prove their role and become conftown from it because scum vigs are blacklisted and desperado is a vig variant) but is otherwise a straight-out cop. And the scum can't claim vig here thanks to the desperado. A guilty is a flat-out guilty, and an innocent is a hard-innocent. (I do believe that the JOAT still shows as having a gun because their role is not Mafia Doctor. Doctor is simply a power there. So all results are basically accurate.)
The watcher, and the rolestopper, furthermore would mean that the scum get absolutely FUCKED over a single guilty.
Guilty scum N1. Scum block them N2 if the JOAT lives, but are caught by the watcher doing so. JOAT gets lynched. Scum are down to one member and now must kill the watcher, AND the gunsmith, and this while dealing with the rolestopper.

That's just plain unfair to the scum.

If this were a worst-case scenario, that'd be one thing.

But this is not at all in any way even REMOTELY a stretch--it's not a simple unlikely possibility, but a very strong PROBABILITY to occur.

But minus the gunsmith, that same setup is golden: no scum stick out as possible liars from their claim alone (aside from the ever so slightest of possible concerns between a JOAT with a tracker with a follower/JOAT with a doctor with a rolestopper, but I don't think that's a major issue), given the odd-night/even-night/non-consecutive night roles. The town has two decently reliable ways of finding the scum: the follower and the watcher. The rolestopper gives them decent strength. The vanilla cop is a mostly net-neutral, slight positive lean for the town, helping their investigations and confirmations. Given the Desperado to give the town an extra edge (even though the Desperado is, statistically speaking, almost assuredly just gonna shoot town), and they're neither overpowered nor underpowered.

The scum's neighborizer is similarly a mostly net-null: it is not gamebreaking for them to have, but can potentially be used to help influence the game. And their JOAT with its track can further give them information. They have a doctor shot which can help provide them with cover, and a single roleblock to help weaken the town's synchronization.

The town works well together, but is gated; the scum can disrupt the town and blend into the town, further masking their presence.

I mean, if, say, all players truthfully claimed D1, the town would realize they have too many power roles, sure.
But they don't have any way of discerning who the liars are, not without extra lynches and flips and guesswork off of play.

So THAT I would call balanced.

But with the gunsmith, fuck no, that's begging for a town landslide.

[mastin2]

Stats for a mafia neighbor are different than stats for a mafia NEIGHBORIZER.
Neighborizer is a much weaker role.

I also maintain that with this many roles in the game, not only is it incredibly swingy, it is also just not fair to the scum, especially since they can't effectively work their way out of any result on them. Gunsmith result on them? They get vigged. Watcher result on them? They get lynched. VT claim with evidence to the contrary? Lynched or vigged. Doctor? (A possible claim.) They get lynched. Roleblocker? Probably getting lynched! Cop? Definitely lynched. Rolecop? Turbolynched. Neapolitan? Still lynched. Tracker? In a game with a gunsmith and a vanilla cop, there's a good chance that gets lynched. Same for Follower. Commuter? Also somewhat doubtful and convenient, so lynched. JOAT with a truthful claim? Without the gunsmith I can see that role being believed by the town. (Albeit only 50/50.) It's actually REMARKABLY plausible in the game. WITH the gunsmith in the game, there'd be no way that would pass a review. (Being, JOAT with decent abilities + rolestopper which is arguably a stronger doctor + gunsmith + vanilla cop + watcher + desperado. That'd be SIX strong town roles, only slightly gated. Minus the gunsmith, you get "five" town roles--a bit of a stretch still, yes, but plausible enough to be believable. "Six" town roles, however, would never make it past ANY reviewer. This, ignoring the neighborizer. That puts things at "SEVEN town" roles.)

The gunsmith gives zero scum flexibility. They have no wiggle room whatsoever. If they play perfectly, sure, maybe they manage to disrupt the town coherency enough to win. But it requires exactly that: playing perfectly.

As the game is now, I don't see the scum ever winning short of pure blind luck. We're talking, "lynch a PR D1, scum kill a PR N1 without being caught, repeat for D2/N2", luck.
Which, sure, is possible.

But not probable. Not even really plausible.

Gunsmiths are insanely powerful in games. They are

just

weaker than cops. Stronger than Neapolitans, in that they have fewer false guilties and more correct innocents. If you wrote in a 2-shot cop, regardless of the scum's PRs, you could have two other town roles--just two--and that setup alone would be balanced pretty much, regardless of what those extra two town roles were, because the two-shot cop would be THAT powerful.

And this is that same power...except the game already HAS a ton of power.

[mastin2]

So, no, not particularly.

[mastin2]

I hate the setup.
Hate the setup to the point where I wouldn't want my name listed as a reviewer, hate.
It's swingy as fuck. It has five fairly powerful town roles against two fairly powerful scum roles.
I would strongly recommend against running a setup like that.
I would warn that in postgame, players--regardless of their alignment--are going to rant about how unbalanced the game was, ESPECIALLY the losing team.
It is not the kind of setup I would EVER want to see run.

But.
To my eye.

Technically speaking

.
I think it fulfills balance requirements.
So I'd begrudgingly write it off as passing, once I saw the role PMs and whatnot.

[mastin2]

Still swingy to a point beyond what I prefer.
But passable, once I see final role PMs. Scum's PRs don't give them a huge advantage, town's PRs give them decent power which isn't overwhelming and is gated. It might play out as a scum win (that would be my prediction, since it depends on town player skill to use those roles well, and...weeeeelllllllll......), but at least in theory, I believe it is balanced. Smart town play gives them a very solid chance at winning; smart scum play gives them a solid chance at winning.

[mastin2]

(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)

[mastin2]

You will be granted a separate PT to talk to your target. You may talk there anytime you want.

Does that mean each target receives a different PT?
If not, I would reword this.

1 Shot Roleblocker - You may target a player, preventing them from performing a night action if they have any.

Does that mean X-shot roles are refunded?
If not, I would reword this to be "causing any night action they would perform to fail". (The two are NOT synonymous. Preventing = stops from using; failing = it's used but fails.)

You are a Town Novice Desperado

Technically, this is two non-normal things: novice is not a Normal modifier, and Desperado is not a Normal role. I'm not quite sure on whether we can allow that. (Might be an "other reviewers" or even "To Nexus" question.) They're both IN the same role slot, but they are two different things on the same role slot.

All kill attempts on you in a single night will fail. You won't be told if a kill was performed on you or not.

I'm also not quite sure if I'm happy with this wording, though I'm not sure there's a better one. I feel like it may not be clear that what you mean is that the first night they would be killed, they will instead live.

Also, because it IS relevant to the game:
You need to define "x-shot BP vs. protection role" interactions. That being, if the BP still has its vest, and is protected by a protective role, would they use their vest, or would the protective role protect them and preserve the vest? (Given this is a rolestopper I am inclined to say the latter. However, you need a general answer--what if someone claims doctor, be it town or scum? What if someone ASKS about a doctor? And for that matter, what if someone asks about a BODYGUARD? There's also Jailkeeper to take into account. Just because those roles aren't in the game doesn't mean you shouldn't have answers for them.)

[mastin2]

And for that matter: the page on Desperado is ambiguous on whether the role is 1-shot or not.
You have it so that it is a one-shot role, but that is not something universal to it.
If the role is meant to be one-shot, I'd like that clearly stated as a modifier.

[mastin2]

That's good enough for me.

[mastin2]

I thought I had also expressed I was at the point of saying you were good enough.

[mastin2]

Why is Desperado thinking that if he shoots a town BP, the BP loses their vest?
The role PM we approved had it so that if he shot town, he died, and if he shot mafia, they died.
The implication there is that if he shoots mafia, the shot goes through; if he shoots town, the shot doesn't and he dies instead.
(Also lol at Desperado getting the role of...Desperado.)

[mastin2]

So, question.
How did Kain Tepes neighborize RC?
RC's the ascetic watcher, right?
Ascetic means that the neighborize should've failed.