Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

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Post Post #2897  (isolation #0)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:45 am

Hi, I was following the game from the beginning. I'm going to note down all the claims so I have a bird's eye-view of the game before digging into reads.

eagerSnake - Town Ascetic - was lynched Day 1
MariaR - Vanilla Townie - died Night 1
Lil Uzi Vert - Mafia Goon - was lynched Day 2
Gamma Emerald - Town Cop - died Night 2
Grendel - Vanilla Townie - was lynched Day 3
PenguinPower - Town Deputy - died Night 3

BlackVoid - Town Ascetic
Zoronos - Town Jailkeeper (N1: Penguin N2: Grendel N3: nn30)
implosion - Vanilla Townie (confirmed town via Gamma Emerald)
nn30 - Vanilla Townie
boring - Vanilla Townie
Dierfire - Vanilla Townie
Prism - Vanilla Townie

Correct me if I make a mistake anywhere.

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Post Post #2899  (isolation #1)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:11 am

As far as reads go, I spent most of the time I was spectating from D1 onwards thinking that Boring, Prism, and LUV were the scumteam because I was townreading everyone else. I was really sad to see Eagersnake lynched because despite being cc'd, he was really, really obvtown. Implosion was too and the cop investigation on him wasn't the best idea in my opinion.

While it's technically possible Zoronos is scum, I don't think his play around LUV looked like he was cc'ing a partner. For one, he did it way too quick instead of checking to see if town cc's him first. I don't find him scummy either way so I'll safely eliminate him from suspicion along with Implosion. That leaves me with four players: Boring, Prism, nn30, and Dierfire.

Boring is the one I'm most confident is scum. D1 play had a lot of scum motivation, and I found some of her posts to be really manipulative. The nightkill only cemented that. In hindsight, the fact that four confirmed townies were voting her is another mark against her. Frankly, I'm surprised she it made this far when she should have been lynched D1 over Eagersnake. But everyone's finally coalesced on a scumread of her so better late than never I guess. By the way, her attack on my predecessor today was really bad too. Despite being so wrong early on, it was SO obvious that Shadow_Step was town based on how he cc'd Eagersnake.

I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.

So, I'm fairly confident boring's partner is between Dierfire and nn30. Knowing I was wrong about Prism, one of my townreads on either Dierfire or nn30 is also wrong. It seems the consensus is that Dierfire is boring's partner but I think I want to read both their ISOs to see if I feel the same way as the others.

In the meantime, @Implosion, if you could explain to me why nn30 is town (or just link me to posts if you've done this already), that would be fantastic. I was actually leaning the opposite way (nn30 being scummier than Dierfire) but that's from memory and I need to re-read. Either way, I want to go with Boring first since that's who I think will definitely flip scum, and then worry about who her partner is tomorrow.

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Post Post #2903  (isolation #2)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:46 am

I don't know the mod. I was just casually following. No particular reason.

Implosion did a really good job explaining why Boring's play around LUV doesn't preclude them from being partners. That aside, LUV was an early wagon, he wasn't widely townread. It looked like sooner or later, he was going to take the fall. He was also a goon. Bussing a little before you need to is actually optimal strategy for a bus because that's when you get maximum cred. Not all scum are going to sit by voting townies until their partner is nearly lynched and then bus at the last moment.

Boring herself was scumread enough to have an L-2 wagon on her D1. When multiple scum are under pressure or in people's process-of-elimination lists, it can be very hard to stop themselves from being boxed out and lynched one by one. To do well in a situation like that, it isn't enough to fly below the radar, you have to be on people's townlists. If your own play can't achieve that, bussing is the last resort.

On Zoronos, even if they planned it, they wouldn't want to do it quickly. What if there was an actual town doc or town jailkeeper? Those aren't exactly uncommon roles. It would have been a disaster.

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Post Post #2921  (isolation #3)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:33 pm

Sure, I can post the stream-of-consciousness notes I took in excel. Not sure how helpful it'll be to read me since I did them all before receiving my role PM but it'll help you see my reasoning.

Spoiler: Notes
STRONG TOWN
Shadow_step - Counter-claiming the ascetic modifier is so, so town I'm willing to write him off as conf-town. The way he did it was incredibly town as well.
Implosion - #131 is an astute observation. But is it really townish? Scratch that. He caught Penguin's towntell which is the same thing I did and his thoughts matching mine is awesome.
eagerSnake - Ascetic claim, slight towntell because it allows actions to not be wasted on him. Townread on nn30 after looking through his meta, checked if he was an alt. #109: like the complexity here. Reads Zor town, Boring scum, Shadow_step scum. All seem like okay reads. No issues with any of them.
PenguinPower - #78: Reaction to LUV's entrance was the same as mine. Pressing LUV, the passing comment about GE defending LUV. #219: Endgame thing is not scum. Calls out both nn30 and LUV. Solid.
Zoronos - #97: Picked up on the same thing about Grendel that I liked. Grendel turn-around seemed like he was actually scumhunting. Could be coaching LUV. Too abrasive and involved in scumhunting to be scum. The coaching tell may not be relevant since he scumhunts that way and did it to Eager as well.
Dierfire - Early townreads on Implosion, nn30, and Grendel are fairly solid. Overall stances and questioning make a ton of sense. Pretty confident in a town read here.
Gamma Emerald
nn30 - Self-vote + RQS response slightly scummy. Checking Eager's meta seems town but timeline seems off. Ask about this. Why PRs? But odd for scum to ask in thread. No opinions about RVS? Suspects Grendel due to response to Implosion, questions why Zoronos is town, then agrees with Zoronos to vote Implosion. Then agrees on Grendel-town. Wierd. Too much agreeing, stances change conveniently. Not Boring's partner. The case isn't bad at all.

LEANING TOWN
MariaR - Talked sense during Eager/Shadow cc, latched onto Boring pretty well. But not 100% on it, re-evaluate later.
Grendel - Biggest reason is his argument made me second-guess myself. His suspicion of Eagle makes sense as does his earlier townread. Don't lynch early but be very wary of this read. Too conscious about whether his reads lined up. Could be boring partner. It seemed like he was distancing but never joins the wagon + how did he catch Eager's manipulation but missed Boring's? Paranoia of Dier seems townie (wants him to be town) after Dier townreads him. The over-focus on him was off-putting but why? Think more on this if Boring is scum.

NULL
Lil Uzi Vert

SCUM
boring - Highly manipulative push on Eager, egging on the cc while calling Shadow obvtown reads like she knew he'll be attacked tomorrow anyways. CW to town-Eagle. Wagon disappears.
Prism - Bad push on implosion. Questions Boring in his first post but waffles between implosion and Eager as the final choices.


There's nothing in Gamma and LUV's sections because I didn't have a read on them until later in the game and I just didn't bother to type them in. LUV was mostly gut from early game and Gamma was null until he voted Boring over Eager which I saw as a towntell because I was scumreading Boring and townreading Eager pretty hard. Some reads switched around but I stopped updating when I felt that I figured out the scumteam through POE.

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Post Post #2922  (isolation #4)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:41 pm

By the way, Implosion was obvious town from day one. He started slightly towntelling as early as the point where he said he had "lots of interesting things to say" and then continued being even more town with his D1 case on Boring, and trying to talk sense into my predecessor when he and Eager had their cc battle. I was rather annoyed to see everyone dismissing those points, even more so when Shadow_Step opened D2 by saying that the nightkill was meant to frame Boring and people started assuming Implosion could only be right because he was scum and knew both cc's were town. And I wasn't even playing the game.

Because the fact is, both Eager AND Shadow were incredibly town on D1. I simply don't understand why people were both unable to see that and then act as if someone who pointed this out has to have insider information. Oh, and off of memory, there was this pretty cool towntell that I saw Penguin hit when he told Grendel something like "what's going to happen at endgame?" and I thought that was town. Implosion was the only one who saw it while everyone else just kept pressuring him.

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Post Post #2932  (isolation #5)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:22 pm

In post 2923, nn30 wrote:@Blackvoid - one question, why am I strong town in your stream of consciousness list? The note you have about me contradicts that. If I were to guess based on the note I'd put me at a scum lean.

What gives?

Also, can you qualify your prism scum read with some post D1 stuff? I've had him strongly town for a while - I'd like to know why this contradicts what I think.

As I mentioned earlier, I had a fairly strong scumread on Boring and a very strong townread on Eagersnake so some of my day one reads were informed by that. When you made a case against Boring, and voted her over Eagersnake, I put you in the town category for that. It did outweigh most things you did D1.

On Prism, I'll just give you the stuff I remember. I didn't like his preference for lynching Eager over Boring. I didn't like his Implosion push. I'm not going to go into the nitty-gritty of every argument as I'm confident he's town now for that attempted replace out. There was also POE as most others did something I thought was town.

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Post Post #2934  (isolation #6)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:27 pm

Here: Image

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Post Post #2935  (isolation #7)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:28 pm

I'm not sure I'd vote you over Dier but I'd definitely vote you over Prism or Zoronos.

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Post Post #2937  (isolation #8)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:46 pm

I thought I just said why a couple of times... if my predecessor did just nail the team (Boring/Prism), I don't think Prism's response as scum would be "you're so arrogant, I'm out." That goes against every principle of sportsmanship ever. I talked about why Zoronos counterclaiming so quickly points heavily against him being partnered with LUV and you agreed.

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Post Post #2939  (isolation #9)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:50 pm

Unless you are asking I'm not sure whether I'd vote you over Dier. It's a tossup, really. I'm going to have read really closely to figure that out and I just want to get a confident scumflip out of the way before sitting down to re-read.

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Post Post #2941  (isolation #10)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:01 pm

Just me being transparent that they shouldn't be a reason to read me as town. I'd prefer to pull my own weight as town. Why does it bother you? You don't think, if I were scum, I could have posted genuine town thoughts and not said anything and be townread for it?

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Post Post #2943  (isolation #11)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:24 pm

It's fairly common for a player who is following a game they replace into, to have thoughts about the game before replacing in. Regardless of what alignment they are, these can't be used to read them because either way, they come from a town perspective. If someone posts a lot of notes upon replacing in, whether or not they made those notes before or after replacing in is very relevant information which is why I offered it.

What I asked was: if I drew scum, why do you think I'd just post them and say "here's stuff I had before replacing in" instead of waiting a day or so, tweaking my notes, and posting them? Since most of them would have been town thoughts anyways, that would have gotten me townread

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Post Post #2945  (isolation #12)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:53 pm

On the subject of Shadow_step, I'm honestly surprised anyone could read that D1 play as scum. It's not just that he cc'd, it's that he went out of his way to get additional reads, to let Eagersnake play normally, and for people to react to him and finally revealed. But you are not the only one so I don't know if that's necessarily scummy.

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Post Post #2956  (isolation #13)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:20 am

Since it's likely one of Zoronos and Implosion won't be here tomorrow, I'm ready for a hammer after they both get another chance to post final thoughts/JK target (unless there's anything else). I need to process Dierfire's posts and re-read closely but I'd rather do that after flipping Boring and confirming that she's indeed scum.

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Post Post #2959  (isolation #14)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:32 am

Double checked my role PM just to make sure. Still town.

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Post Post #2970  (isolation #15)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:45 am

Uh no, I highly doubt scum don't have a roleblocker.

I think everyone's agreed that the remaining scum has to be between nn30, Dierfire, and me. We have two chances to get it right. We shall see how it pans out.

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Post Post #2971  (isolation #16)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:55 am

NN30 being so easily convinced that Boring was scum after I posted reasons seemed pretty suspicious actually. He was apparently townreading her for bussing, but then as soon as I make the argument, he's suddenly all for it, then pushes me and Boring as a team which is a weird progression. I think he's pushing me simply because he knows Boring is likely dead and Dierfire is pretty much a guaranteed mislynch, and I'll vote him in 3-way lylo.

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Post Post #2972  (isolation #17)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:03 am

In post 2474, implosion wrote:Alright, nn's play today feeling town:

I think it's pretty much entirely encapsulated . That post gives me two reasons to think nn is town:

-the indignance with which he describes his play as town. This is more of a gut thing, it isn't going to be rigorously justifiable. It does go beyond simply indignance; it feels to me like nn is genuinely trying to work with people to solve the game. His insistence that the people pushing him give cases, his rhetoric towards Zoronos, and so on.

-his throwing townreads out left and right. If he's scum then the way that he went into today is painting himself into a corner, immediately striking out both pp and boring as likely directions for him to push in going forward. Granted, he did flip on boring now, but in a reasonable way in response to new information which him as scum wouldn't have known would be guaranteed to happen. To generalize he is playing this day very off-the-cuff, throwing reads out and laying his opinions bare for everyone to investigate. Saying he , then giving to vote him 7 minutes later. And then saying he got more from Grendel 40 minutes after that. He's responsive. He doesn't have a plan. His play just doesn't feel like scum who's trying to get a person in particular lynched, or avoid lynching anyone else in particular, or try to avoid being lynched himself; his play is just too much a combination of putting himself out there and not having a plan behind it to be scum, I think.

So, I read the posts you are pointing out. Obviously I need to re-read them in context before I can comment on them but he has a completed game as mafia so I'm going to check whether these are not just all playstyle-indicative.

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Post Post #2976  (isolation #18)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:20 am

If scum have a roleblocker and roleblock anyone OTHER than Zoronos, two potential drawbacks: one - their kill target may be protected by Zoronos in which case they miss their kill; two - Zoronos jailkeeps the killer which casts suspicion on them and they miss their nightkill. Tl;dr - if they have a roleblocker, roleblocking Zoronos is the way to go. They could have killed him as well but that leaves Penguin free to investigate anyone he wants.

I don't Penguin was likely to get mislynched at all. I think people realized how well his role fit into the setup. Without it, town would be underpowered.

You being easily convinced doesn't explain why Implosion making similar arguments didn't sway you. (I'll have to look back to confirm this though). It also seems weird that your top suspect besides Boring is the one that showed you why Boring was scum.

Advocating for my lynch outside Dierfire doesn't mean that he won't be lynched anyways due to concensus so that the next day you can say "told you guys, it was BV." It also doesn't mean that you can't change your mind in 3P and vote Dierfire anyways. In fact he'll be a hell of a lot easier mislynch than me in 3P because everyone is so against him.

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Post Post #3024  (isolation #19)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:33 pm

Can we just lynch Boring and get done with it?

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Post Post #3027  (isolation #20)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:43 pm

Same here. But she's at L-2. It's more a question of putting her in self-hammer range just in case anyone had anything really pressing.

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Post Post #3030  (isolation #21)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:35 pm

VOTE: Boring (Lynch - 1)

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Post Post #3054  (isolation #22)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:20 pm

A full roleblocker and a neapolitan seem overpowered against a cop, deputy, and jailkeeper. I wondered if there was an x-shot roleblocker but what I really think makes sense is some type of mafia ascetic.

Having two town ascetics and one mafia ascetic could create quite a bit of confusion, nerf the power roles (because without a roleblocker, this seems mildly townsided). That's what I'm guessing the last mafia is and the game fits together really well in that scenario.

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Post Post #3066  (isolation #23)  » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:07 pm

What worried me about your posts D4 were that you wrote a lot of stuff without concretely saying that anyone is scum. I want to see you make direct accusations.

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Post Post #3081  (isolation #24)  » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:35 pm

I'm still not sure which of nn30 or Dierfire it is. I guess I'll have to do this the hard way and re-read again. This is going to take a while.

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Post Post #3102  (isolation #25)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:54 am

Just give me a few days to read this game. 100+ pages full of walls is a lot but I'll try and look for important parts. I don't want to get to lylo. That would suck. Just want to make absolutely sure.

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Post Post #3104  (isolation #26)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:59 am

Yeah, I'm talking about double-checking DF.

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Post Post #3110  (isolation #27)  » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:22 am

Haven't gotten to reading the game but will try and do that this weekend.

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Post Post #3118  (isolation #28)  » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:59 am

Still a hard decision.

@nn30, how did you go from scumreading me to suddenly townreading me and then pushing Dierfire as the lynch? You did a similar thing where you were townreading Boring and I pushed her, and then you out of nowhere voted her too.

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Post Post #3122  (isolation #29)  » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:32 pm

So, from an ISO of Dierfire, I find him somewhat scummy. He's very hesitant to push Boring D1 and prefers the Eagersnake wagon which I hate. Then is also hesitant to consider the MariaR kill to be indicative of Boring being scum. But he slowly moves towards her as a scumread, briefly votes her, says she and Grendel are the team and switches to Grendel. Finally there's the lame vote on me. The only thing that gives me pause is that he seemed really intent on checking to see if Boring was scum before finally lynching her D4. I'd expect scum to be more bus-happy when it became rather obvious that Boring was going to be the lynch. Overall, probably scum but nothing stands out like a smoking gun and I don't think it's impossible for him to have those progressions as town. I'll take a look at nn30 more closely but unless something is extremely incriminating, I'm probably going to vote Dierfire as the path of least resistance and if I'm wrong, move to 3P lylo.

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Post Post #3137  (isolation #30)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:38 am

So, leaning towards it being nn30 but my townread on Prism is mostly based on Prism's replace out so I want to look at Prism's actual play before voting.

I've already gotten scumvibes from the way nn30 has played so far in the game. The sudden townread on me and push on Dierfire was pretty opportunistic. I think he wanted to get that Dierfire mislynch out of the way before pushing me. I had started going through nn30's ISO and even on D1, he was very aware of Boring being scum to the point where he already tying other people to Boring. More tomorrow.

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Post Post #3141  (isolation #31)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:10 am

There was a five person wagon on Boring D1. I don't think they were all town. I guess they could be but I'm not going to townread every one of them just for voting her. Odds are pretty high at least one scum was on that wagon.

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Post Post #3142  (isolation #32)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:16 am

nn30 also never followed up by voting Boring D2 which he would have if he was town honestly believing in the case and push he made. But when Implosion continued to push Boring nn30 didn't offer support. He voted Gamma. Then he voted Penguin. This is odd because when I replaced in and pushed Boring, I remember him telling me that Boring was town because he didn't think she would bus LUV. But LUV flipped at the end of D2 and there's no real explanation for why he didn't continue pushing Boring on D2.

I agree Boring was a more valuable role but I think roles play a small role in deciding whether scum want to bus or not. Much more important is play, and Boring was in general pretty scummy throughout the game.

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Post Post #3145  (isolation #33)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:37 am

Nothing about 3122 was scummy except for the fact that it looked "surface-level-bad" in a way that scum can take advantage of.

I read through Dierfire. I thought there was the possibility he could be scum but nothing I felt strongly either way. With that kind of read, persuading every other player to lynch someone else would have been a monumental task since they were all confident it was Dierfire. They kind of needed Dierfire to flip before looking anywhere else. I decided not to fight the lynch and see what he flips. Hey, I might be wrong and maybe the game would end and there would be nothing else to worry about. If I thought he was strongly town, then I would have fought the lynch.

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Post Post #3147  (isolation #34)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:21 pm

I've considered that possibility. Right now, I'm going to finish my reading and then lay out the evidence pro and con for each before deciding where to vote so you'll get to make your case then if you think it's Prism.

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Post Post #3152  (isolation #35)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:19 pm

As far as your play, Prism, while I was reading the thread as a spectator, I thought you were probably scum. I stopped reading closely somewhere near the end of D1. I remember second-guessing my original Boring-Prism-LUV scumteam guess when I saw you and Boring pushing LUV together. I wondered if he might be town being pushed by scum but he flipped scum. Boring was a very strong scumread so that remained but I wasn't sure if you were scum or if someone I was townreading was but I felt that I was most likely wrong in my initial guess. I wasn't writing everything down because I thought I might not get a chance to play because of how active everyone was.

Regarding your replace out, everyone wants to be townread for their awesome play and not because of some silly reason like saying they replaced out. But when something like that happens, as town I can't ignore it. I really don't think that if you and Boring were the scumteam and Shadow kept insisting that you be lynched back to back (even if he was a little overconfident about it), I think you'd find some way to wiggle out of it rather than decide to replace out because you got caught. But as town, I could see you in the heat of the moment thinking "that's it, I'm done with this guy" and post a replace out request.

It's not about posting an "easily retractable reason" and then rescinding it. Honestly, as scum I wouldn't even have bothered mentioning that. I haven't actually rescinded my townread on you. My feeling is still the same. The only reason I'm reading the thread is that this is 3-way lylo and it would be irresponsible to vote without thoroughly considering the possibility of you being scum.

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Post Post #3162  (isolation #36)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:18 pm

Not convinced. Just seems like you trying to look town by considering both options.

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Post Post #3165  (isolation #37)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:08 pm

In post 3163, nn30 wrote:
In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.


@BV

The above quote is the strongest reason I have to believe you're town. It's so strong that I back-tracked on my Prism town read due to it.

1) Do you feel that my reading of this quote is accurate? Why or why not?


2) If you think the above quote is a good reason to town read you, the onus is on me to earn a town read from you. I obviously have my work cut out.

For the moment I'm still interested in why you were scum reading Prism before you entered the game - I'd like to talk about that.

I actually agree that I don't think Shadow would have been frustrated in quite the same manner if he were scum. I wouldn't say it's the strongest reason I've townread him. It's his general demeanor and high confidence as well as how hard and how genuinely he pushed that Eager lynch that I found most town when I didn't know his alignment.

My scumread on Prism was based mostly off of his Implosion push. Contrary to most of the game, I thought Implosion was not only town but one of the few voices of sanity that was making sense in a chaotic game. I looked at any case on him negatively and at some points, even wondered if Zoronos was hamming it on pointlessly complaining about Implosion writing words but not saying much - when in reality, he was saying a lot of good stuff. But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.

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Post Post #3168  (isolation #38)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:55 pm

In post 3167, nn30 wrote:you should be town reading me for it.

This seems to be the reason you did it though. I think you wanted the "why would nn30 go for Prism if he were scum rather than try to get his vote?" cred.

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Post Post #3189  (isolation #39)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:25 pm

In post 3169, Prism wrote:If he's town who thinks he's nailed the scum he's got scum flailing and even trying to replace out out of frustration with him. While I wasn't the only one hounding him, nn was too, it's apparent based off the followup post that he did it with me in mind.

I think he didn't want people to replace out on his account and would rather do it himself as a courtesy. If I were in his place and I pushed someone really hard, they get mad at me and post a replace out request, my reaction would be to apologize or to offer to replace out myself. It wouldn't be "haha, I pressured scum so hard they cracked and now they want to replace out." That kind of thought process would be ridiculous and I have no idea why you'd expect Shadow to think that way.

In post 3169, Prism wrote:His post itself is completely bullshit. It's possible he was really that delusional but who on earth reads Shadow's ISO and agrees with this conclusion:
In post 2890, Shadow_step wrote:I can't take this constant misrep and insult of my play when I'm not being arrgant or cocky at all. I can't help it if people perceive it that way.

You're kidding, right? Do you really think he'd perceive himself the same way you perceive him? Everyone has their own perspective of themselves. Just because you believe someone is arrogant doesn't mean they agree with you and also think of themselves as arrogant.

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Post Post #3192  (isolation #40)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:13 pm

What I don't get is why you townread nn30 in the first place. Both you and Implosion have been really vague about it and I don't think I understand that read at all.

Coming in, nn30 was the one I thought was scummier than Dierfire, and the scummiest player in the game besides Boring. He had a lot of shifty interactions (like immediately voting Boring when I pushed really hard there despite an earlier townread), noticeably preferring a Dierfire lynch (I think, I have to re-read) over Boring, saying that Boring pushing LUV is a point for her being town, etc. There's also the fact that he stopped pushing her D2 and I have a hard time buying that every player on the Boring wagon was town.

To claim that he's god-level scum if he's scum here is ridiculous to me. I did read somewhere that he prefers playing scum so I won't discount that he may have geared up to manipulate people in the game. I almost get the feeling from you that you are locked in and not interested in considering that I'm town at all but I don't know what that means yet.

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Post Post #3197  (isolation #41)  » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:33 pm

Will get to this later.

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Post Post #3203  (isolation #42)  » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:25 am

Still re-reading. Hopefully, I'll be able to make a decision with at least a couple of days left.

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Post Post #3207  (isolation #43)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:58 am

That's a pretty quick turnaround there. One moment, you were pushing Prism, when I didn't buy it, you decided I was scum after all.

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Post Post #3209  (isolation #44)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:28 pm

I'm pretty sure it is. You figured out I'm not buying what you are selling so pushing me seems like your only option.

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Post Post #3211  (isolation #45)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:53 pm

I've been pretty clear on how I felt about Dierfire. I thought you were the most likely scum but couldn't confidently say that and that Dierfire was town. Everyone seemed dead-set on lynching him so I didn't argue against it and let it happen. You keep trying to twist it into a scum narrative but as town with the reads I had, would you have expected me to do something different?

Your reads are actually really convenient. When I replaced into the game calling you scum, you scumread me back. Then everyone gets settled on Dierfire. Through some bizarre trickery, you decide I'm town and that Dierfire is scum and are suddenly all for lynching him. Once he flips town, you go "oh, wow, he was town, turns out BV is scum."

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Post Post #3212  (isolation #46)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:57 pm

To say that I haven't done any scumhunting is grossly inaccurate. I've correctly pegged one scum (Boring) and possibly another (you). I heavily pushed for her lynch when before I replaced in, the default lynch was Dierfire, a townie. I was the primary cause of scum being lynched that day. I don't bring this up in my favor because I recognize that if I had drawn scum, hard-bussing at that point before taking the guaranteed Dierfire mislynch would have been a very viable option for me so it's null. But it shows I have been scumhunting.

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Post Post #3217  (isolation #47)  » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:43 pm

In post 3213, nn30 wrote:Ugh. I thought you had come in a day later - I actually remembered incorrectly. You did come in and push Boring.

Lylo is hard.

How did you forget that when I was the reason you voted her?

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Post Post #3221  (isolation #48)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:00 am

Yeah, I need more time too. I have a good idea which way I'll likely be voting but want to do another close re-read of the thread and questions for both of you before voting.

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Post Post #3223  (isolation #49)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:05 am

Probably. And?

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Post Post #3224  (isolation #50)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:09 am

The real question is why aren't you re-reading? Clearly, you are not ready to vote either given you haven't, so you should be reading to help you feel more confident in your decision.

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Post Post #3236  (isolation #51)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:54 pm

Okay. I'm going to go over the game bit by bit and analyze. Hopefully I'll be able to put down a vote with at least 48 hours to go so I can spend time convincing whoever is town.

Day 1, Part 1 (Pre-Shadow's counterclaim) - Pages 1 - 26

My read on nn30 is conflicted. He dug through Eagersnake's completed games in 20 minutes which is superficially townish. But there's a general tone of being overly agreeable that I don't like. For example, he questions why Zoronos is town in , then agrees with Zoronos on Implosion in and votes Implosion. Then there's him calling Grendel's post scummy in but agreeing with PenguinPower that Grendel is town in . I thought was townish in an "am I the only one who sees this?" sense and I don't think his suspicion of Boring in is all that bad.

On Prism, I don't like the suspicion of Implosion not just because I think he was very town, but the subtle ties to Boring there. In , he claims to be scumreading both Boring and Implosion while also implying that Implosion and Boring are partners by calling it "half-hearted opinion fishing." His position is basically that Boring shares his Implosion scumread but for completely different reasons. I see this is potentially distancing from a partner while voting town but also could be a townie who thinks Boring and Implosion are partners. Given this, it's odd that he never votes Boring though when a wagon springs up. I'll have to check how this read progressed.

As far as interactions from Boring's side, I think 622 is more likely to be talking to a partner. The overblown type reaction to stir up theater. Whereas in 639, it seems like she's trying to persuade nn30 and calmly explain her read. Going to do my next bit of analysis later tonight.

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Post Post #3251  (isolation #52)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:22 pm

That's a lot of new posts. I'll get to them after this.

Day 1, Part 2 (Post-Shadow's counterclaim) - Pages 27 - 62

What I don't get about nn30 was why he was so convinced Shadow_step was scum counterclaiming. Even as a spectator before I knew Shadow was town, my initial reaction was "no way that's scum regardless of Eager's alignment." The pressing issues seems to be that Shadow waited a while before counterclaiming but didn't wait long enough and get enough reads, and also that he was scumreading someone Eager had pushed (Penguin). I see this as a fairly weak point. Shadow had to claim at some point, and scum do bus. @nn30, I'm going to read your completed scumgame but if you want to save me time, let me know if you ever bussed your partner or voted them at any point. This is at least consistent with you saying Boring was town after the LUV flip because you don't seem to believe that scum would bus. It seems like bussing is so alien to you and I want to check if that is accurate. The timing of the case on Boring was quite good and nn30 overall did push scum over the town cc's. There were two points he tied Shadow to Boring pretty blatantly and from a newb-scum, this makes sense although I do see why he would think that way as town. Boring's responses to nn30 seem fairly neutral but I'm leaning towards her talking to town based on her tone.

Prism comes off a lot worse D1. I partly want to believe his tunneling of Implosion is real because of how much bold and caps he uses (believes in his case), but the actual reasons are terrible, Implosion was obvtown, and I can't for the life understand how anyone could scumread him. The remarks to LUV seemed more like passing token remarks about a lurking buddy which he never follows up on. He also criticizes the Boring wagon (I assume this is where he started second-guessing his Boring scumread), and votes Eager as a second choice if he can't get Implosion lynched which feels like classic scum having the top lynch as a "compromise" option so he can go back to pushing Implosion the following day. He never votes Boring despite scumreading her even though he keeps implying that Implosion wasn't pushing his Boring scumread hard enough (which means he's saying that they are partners). I just find it hard to buy either his Implosion scumread or his Eager scumread. It's true that Eager did what scum would do (townread Shadow) but Prism is ignoring that if Eager was town, this is exactly how he would play the game because Shadow's move indeed made no sense as scum.

End of day one, I'm definitely leaning towards it being Prism but that's no surprise. I want to read day two very closely to see how he pushed LUV and also go back over the replace out request. Hopefully, I'll be done tonight. D1 was the bulk of this game taking up nearly half the posts. By the way, holy crap, there are so many things that clear Shadow based on how scum interacted with him and reacted to his claim. I'll go over those after I vote and figure out which of you is town.

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Post Post #3259  (isolation #53)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:15 pm

I'm not. Wait until I finish reading.

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Post Post #3262  (isolation #54)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:33 pm

Dude, if you are town, I don't know what to tell you. Everytime a new piece of evidence comes up, your response is "oh, this is probably scummy but ultimately I'm leaning towards nn30 being town." You just keep repeating the same line over and over. It doesn't look like you are trying to solve the game. It doesn't look like you are considering the options. It looks like you are scum that decided that nn30 probably is less likely to figure out the game than I am and decided that I was going to be your "scumread" in lylo so you can convince him to vote me. If you are actually town here, we've got two days left to figure that out.

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Post Post #3263  (isolation #55)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:34 pm

Don't vote me by the way. Let nn30 vote first. I want to see him make a decision and stand by it.

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Post Post #3268  (isolation #56)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:00 pm

@nn30, you are basically pushing both of us at the same time. Who do you scumread? If you had finished reading, you should be able to make a decision. It's one thing to argue that you are town, it's quite another to argue that both of us are scum.

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Post Post #3269  (isolation #57)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:01 pm

In one word, who do you suspect?

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Post Post #3271  (isolation #58)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:09 pm

So, what's all of the last page about?

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Post Post #3274  (isolation #59)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:29 pm

I'm just going to address the most recent posts once I get there. Might as well do this linearly. With day two, I finished roughly three-fourths of the game page-wise anyways.

Day 2 - Pages 63 - 88

- This is Prism's first content post of the day ending with an LUV vote. What's notable is that Boring also voted LUV on D2 so it could be a co-ordinated bus that both competent members of the scumteam are doing. But he has LUV as a top scumread and Boring as a secondary one. Why join the LUV wagon led by Boring though? If who is on the wagon puts you off from joining it (see D1), Boring being on the LUV wagon should be cause to second-guess it.

- nn30 hedges on LUV trying to decide if it's scum or bad town. In fact, Prism was apparently so town that LUV's suspicion of Prism is what's causing this.

- Gamma becomes nn30's strongest scumread. What I don't get is how you suddenly forgot about the massive Boring case you made yesterday especially given that the counterwagon flipped town. That should have re-iterated your scumread of Boring. But this seems to be a recurring theme where you make up a scumread, and then push somewhere else, and you are constantly changing your opinions. At least, that's consistent all the way through.

- This is very hypocritical considering your play this game and how easily you forget previous reads and general forgetful nature.

- This VC points towards Prism-town since I doubt both scum would be bussing here while there's a town counterwagon.

- I like nearly everything about this post. The suspicion of both Boring and LUV as well how thorough he's double-checking that Implosion clear. I didn't like the digs at Implosion's theory post but that's probably not alignment-indicative.

- nn30's readslist also contains both flipped scum in his scumpile. It's a believable list as town. As scum, he would have to be bussing.

- This is a really good post because lynching Boring at that point would have been incredibly disadvantageous for scum. The best move is to double down and push LUV and get the cred for bussing so both Boring and LUV are semi-clear and can dominate the town. I suppose he could have specifically be laying down false interactions and he does pride himself on his scumgame but overall, it comes across as town. Now, I just wonder why Boring wasn't lynched after LUV. Need to see how Prism's D3 plays out. I guess he could be one of those ultra-bussers but if he is, he's a lot smarter than your typical run-of-the-mill scum who bus poorly.

So, overall Prism comes off way better than nn30 on D2. He not only pushed LUV's lynch but also had Boring as a backup. nn30 forgot about his D1 Boring read for the most part, didn't engage LUV or take stances on him, and mostly pushed players that we now know to be town. The one thing that's bugging me though is I'm wondering if the bus on LUV was co-ordinated by Boring and Prism. It just seems weird that Boring decided to bus the hell out of LUV and nn30 ignored that wagon forming and looked elsewhere. I wish I had Prism meta to read. @Prism - can you link me to your previous games offsite?

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Post Post #3275  (isolation #60)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:31 pm

Well, two-thirds of the game.

Also, it would really help if both of you engage my posts in depth.

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Post Post #3277  (isolation #61)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:59 pm

In post 2276, Prism wrote:If you want me to describe my own scum meta, I can do so on request, but I suspect it will not be helpful due to the credibility issue.

I'd like this actually.

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Post Post #3279  (isolation #62)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:20 pm

Like I said, I will when I get to it. I'm reading the game from start to end and am currently on page 92. When I get to D6, I'll start responding to stuff I didn't before. Feel free to respond to my walls though.

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Post Post #3281  (isolation #63)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:18 pm

Pages 89 - 116 (D3 and the beginning of D4 to the point of my replace-in)

- So, this is where nn30 retracts his Boring scumread. I find it null.

- Prism pushes on. This would have been a really risky double bus following a bus on LUV. I get now what you mean when you say that your play spoke for itself. Still curious how Boring wasn't lynched that day. Need to check what happened later on.

- nn30's reaction here is how I expect scum to react. Saying that Boring's bus on LUV made her town.

- Leaning towards this not being a scum to scum interaction since Boring seems so hesitant and polite but that's just a gut feel.

- This is a pretty weak reason to suspect Grendel and came right when Grendel suggested that he might be paranoid of Prism so it reads to me as opportunistic. Is Prism bussing here or is nn30 bussing? Someone has to be.

- This is the crucial unvote from nn30. It looks like he's saw the suspicion Grendel had from Prism and is encouraging Prism and Implosion to look to him as an alternative to Boring.

- I really like this post from nn30 because it seems like he's listening to people about Boring which is consistent with what he did when I pushed Boring.

- Interesting thing from this VC though is that everytime nn30 voted Boring, it's always when a wagon has formed on her. He's never the driving force behind a Boring lynch.

- Boring is at L-1 here. Need to see how the wagon collapsed after this VC.

- This is a slight towntell since he was arguing against a Boring townflip condemning him. But I also think that if he truly didn't know Boring's alignment, he'd be more wary about Penguin trying to set up lynches. In my experience, town are extremely paranoid about people who try to set them up to be lynched after someone else flips town.

- This is a good post as well and doesn't feel like Prism has inside information about Boring. I'm wondering though how he's so wrong on nn30 given his scumhunting skills so far seemed to be pretty good (he was scumreading both Boring and LUV D2 and D3). The Implosion push was terrible though and doesn't match with the competence he displayed on these two reads.

- On the other hand, playing into the "either Prism or Boring" mentality seems more likely to come from scum.

- I think this points against Prism being scum. Boring is trying to persuade him to vote Penguin.

- This is an interesting post. Prism's switch from Boring to Grendel here making him the top wagon as opposed to her has tons of scum motivation. I could see it from town because some of the reasons he gave are not bad but as far as purely scum-motivated posts go, this one is up there. I think it's somewhat odd that he reads Boring as town now but says that Grendel's hesitance to vote her makes her scum which is pretty classic tie-scum-to-townie.

- This Prism post is deadly risky because he suggests that Implosion singularly pick the day's lynch. Implosion has been pretty clear that he wanted Boring so it seems obvious that Boring is who he would push. He also lays down some plans for what Zoronos should do which I think would be shooting himself in the foot if he was mafia. I'm just not sure where his skill level is at and what are the kinds of things he could fake.

- This is really weak. NN30 hasn't been overwhelmingly town in this game. To be fair, I skimmed some of his posts. Making over 500 posts is overkill and I can't keep track of any of his thoughts or opinions which change on a dime. He's all over the place. I fail to see how you can make any sense of his posting. To call him a god or town is really a stretch.

- This post is terrible. I think someone clearly as competent as Prism would see why Grendel was town because his posting really seemed like town at the last minute getting their reads together so I don't like it.

- I really don't get this emphasis on trying to get people to townread him for good reasons. It's a bizarre thing to focus on. If someone is townreading you for bad reasons, then you probe those reasons to figure out their alignment. Who cares if town is townreading you for bad reasons? All that matters is that they are right.

- Slight towntell to agree with Boring here and say that Shadow was likely scum. It would be odd for scum to be the only ones pushing Shadow.

- This is a really weird post. D3, nn30 was pushing Boring but then switches over and says he's not convinced Boring is scum. Seriously, all your stance changes are giving me whiplash.



So, this could honestly go either way. I'm right at the point where I replaced in. I'm going to take a break and come back and analyze Prism's replace-out request and continue re-reading stuff that happened while I was here.

@Prism - Here's what I really need you to go a LOT in-depth on:

1. Explain to me why you are townreading nn30 as hard as you were at the point you submitted your replace out request. You called him god-level if he was scum and it seemed to me like he was the one townread you were going to take to the bank. I found this an odd choice really. Either you are scum or wrong and I want to figure out which it is.

2. Would you have posted a replace out request at that point if you were scum? This is important because you keep arguing that the replace-out request shouldn't be the reason for a townread on you. Do you really think it's not alignment indicative? Why exactly did you want to replace out. What post of Shadow's triggered this?

Other than that, engaging with what I posted seems like a good idea but those are the most pressing questions I want answered. nn30 is batshit crazy and I don't know if I'll be able to get a confident read there. I need a read on you to be my most solid one. Although I will read nn30's three completed games before I continue on with this game since my replace in and get to responding to all of the D6 stuff.

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Post Post #3288  (isolation #64)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:15 am

In post 3287, Prism wrote:Can't respond tonight, will tomorrow sometime after 9 PM PST.

Okay. I'm in PST as well so we only have two more days left (today and tomorrow). I'll be there after 9PM today so we can talk one-to-one before I decide where to vote. I really do want to spend time tomorrow as well to make my case for why my slot (and Shadow) is town so if I vote right, whoever is town can also make the right decision.

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Post Post #3289  (isolation #65)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:36 am

So, your defense to all of that is "I'm a VI?" Here's a post from a towngame of yours where you describe your bussing tendencies:

Spoiler: Quote from nn30's towngame Newbie 1757
In post 329, nn30 wrote:Hah,

Funny story. My first game on this site I sas scum. During this game my partner made some convoluted BS phaux-analytical post. Town didn't see how bad it was but I certainly did.

I 'scum read' her for making such a poorly analytical post.

The rest of the game her analysis was impeccable. I knew who was town and even I was beginning to scum read town slots.

Mission accomplished.

Wyvernites post feels to be in a similar vein; scum coaching scum.

Obviously wyv could be town but just a wrinkle to consider... Continuing my wyv / Deer ISO..

From someone like that I could totally see you thinking Boring looked scummy and pushing her. I don't like how you are pointing out one game and saying that you didn't bus there means you don't bus at all. People can play differently from game to game. By the way, I just read that one completed towngame. I still got another towngame and a scumgame to go before I continue with this one.

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Post Post #3292  (isolation #66)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:52 am

You said in the scum PT of one game that bussing seemed to be a bad idea. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't bus in a different circumstance in a different game. There was a town-led wagon on Boring which you joined.

I didn't misinterpret that quote. What it shows is that you are not averse to noticing that your partner looks scummy and calling them out on it. Your case on Boring is pretty much that.

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Post Post #3293  (isolation #67)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:54 am

I'm coming close to making my decision. At this point I feel like you are playing both sides. My vote will likely end up on you. The only thing that would really change my mind is you voting Prism and showing me why I'm wrong. If you really think he's scum pocketing you, now's the time to back up your words.

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Post Post #3298  (isolation #68)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:07 pm

This isn't convincing me. I don't feel like you are actually trying to figure anything out. If you are scum, this is exactly what I expected - for you to backtrack and say I'm scum when I press you to vote Prism because you know that voting him and confirming me as town will reduce your chances of winning. So, yeah, likely my vote is ending up on you once I'm done.

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Post Post #3301  (isolation #69)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:01 pm

Analysis on nn30's previous games

First off, I'll say that his play here is unlike either his town or scum games. He's got three completed games. As town, Newbie 1757, and Newbie 1749. As scum, it's Newbie 1741 and the associated Mafia topic is here.

His townplay is pretty low-key and there haven't been any wild jumps back and forth between reads. In 1757, he gets some early pressure on page one for mixing up his thought processes but nothing like what I've seen here. His scumplay is rather like his townplay (awkward and low-key). It's quite apparent that if he's scum here, he definitely improved since his first ever forum mafia game. My major hesitation in voting nn30 basically comes down to just how much stuff there is in the thread. Constant case-making, constant pushing in every direction, there's just a ton of content in the thread which is harder to fake than Prism's measured, reasoned analysis. I also think strategic busses at good times would be a hallmark for a player like Prism who claims to be experienced and competent. There is a post here where nn30 as scum votes someone because if he's scum, good, if he's town, he's unhelpful. That's the exact same mentality he showed towards Shadow_Step and it doesn't feature in his towngame.

However, one of the reasons I had a mild townread on him was due to his constant meta-reads on others which shows he's putting in effort. But this is something he does as scum rendering it null.

Finally, saying that he was not considering all options when he was scum in lylo is either a lie or a stretch because he was pushing and considering everyone, waited for a townie to vote another and then quickhammered which is similar to what he's doing here. In his two towngames, he was endgamed both times. One of those times, he quickvoted a town player. In the other one, he was pretty sure who he wanted to vote and hammered that player (incorrectly). But none of this crazyness of pushing all sides. Based on nn30 meta, I guess I lean slightly towards him as scum but I need to finish up this game since I replaced in. I want to see if there's anything that might change my mind.

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Post Post #3303  (isolation #70)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:18 pm

Pages 116 - 122 (rest of D4 since my replace in)

The biggest red flag for me is how he's suddenly able to see Boring as scum once I made the case on her. When Shadow_Step was pushing Dierfire's mislynch, nn30 was happy to not say much about Boring. He was never convinced by Implosion's or Prism's cases against her. So, how is me repeating the same things suddenly a reason to scumread her?

He also seems overly concerned with who is lynched if one of Boring/Dierfire flips town. But that's circumstantial and Prism's late hop onto Boring was done at a time when it's basically his only option.

nn30 immediately scumreading me after I said Prism was conf-town and that he and Boring were most likely scum is also something I see as coming from scum. He'd know that it was going to be him or me if I never vote Prism and Boring and Dierfire were the lynches. He even suggests that I should be lynched first so he has the juicy Dierfire mislynch waiting for him in lylo.

I thought the Zoronos suspicion looked really fake and like a "I wouldn't kill him after I suspected him move." He keeps arguing that he's batshit crazy but his towngame didn't consist of suspecting literally everyone. In fact, his reads overall were fairly believable.

feels like a setup for his push on Dierfire next after he realized that there was no way he was going to get me lynched first. There's no real reason for townreading me and his D5 play where he suddenly townreads me and says Dierfire is scum is pretty convenient as well.

Everytime I read an nn30, my reaction is "what in the hell?" There's probably a case on every single person in the playerlist nested under spoiler tags with quotes from that player added with his own scummy little twist.

- The final post from Prism D4 where he explains the nn30 townread. I really don't follow this at all. Honestly, it seems like the kind of vague reads scum give on townies which I hate. The rest of his analysis is fine. I do get that sometimes it's really hard to explain townreads so that could be it. On balance, end of D4, I think I still want nn30 over Prism.

Day 5 (Pages 122 to 126)

Prism's reaction of voting Dierfire is something I expect from him as either alignment. nn30's is something I find mildly scummy. Says I'm town so he can get Dierfire lynch locked in while throwing paranoia around calling it "too easy."

- I think you are overvaluing a mafia PR. There were four town votes on Boring. It's unlikely that five townies independently suspected Boring on D1 and the lynch still didn't go through. Likelihood of at least one scum bussing is pretty high. It's not just that Boring was a mafia PR, her play was scummy and it seemed like she was going to get lynched at some point so bussing makes sense here.

, , and is scum just egging me on to vote Dierfire.

- I think this devil's advocate play points somewhat to nn30 being town? is dumb if he's town because if Dierfire named him, that would be an auto-loss. Making a deal with him to lynch me while cautioning people not to townread Dierfire is so blatantly scummy, I'm honestly not sure what to make of it.

Suggesting that he's undecided between me and Dierfire is pretty much what he would have to do as scum. I did a similar thing in that I was undecided about Dierfire but thought nn30 was scummier. It's a surface-level scummy thing but the fact that nn30 is milking it so much is what's making me lean towards it being him.

Prism's end of day post wasn't bad and I could see it coming from town. If he's scum, he covered his bases really, really well. I'm going to start going over the D6 stuff that I missed in detail now and post direct responses.

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Post Post #3305  (isolation #71)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:50 pm

Well, I took a break and thought about this game. The thing that's bugging me is that Prism's play is almost a bit too perfect. It's the kind of scumplay I would expect from someone that's very, very good at scum. Strategic bussing at crucial points to make it to lylo but with just enough scum-motivated play (the switch to Grendel for instance, and the vote on Eagersnake D1). Now he's in lylo with a damn good record and is on the verge of winning the game. nn30 has been wildly pushing everywhere. I honestly don't know if a player is even capable of making THAT many posts and occupying a huge part of the game. That's why I'm wondering if it's Prism.

By the way, asking you to vote Prism was obviously not a bait. I don't have any motivation to do that as scum over just voting someone and pushing them. I did that as town because it would give town a better chance of winning with me confirmed, because it seemed to me that even if I vote right, there's a good chance, I'll be voted. I'm going to get back to reading D6 soon but if you are town, "I'm a VI" isn't a going to cut it as a response. I'd prefer seeing actual thought processes there and I really don't like how everytime one of us posts something about the other, you jump on that while at the same time, there doesn't seem to be much progression of your own reads. You were quick to vote both times you were town in lylo. Why would you wait this long now? (This isn't an invitation to vote by the way, I still want to finish up D6 and interact with Prism's responses first.) If you're scum, I pretty much only have tonight to lay down my case and convince Prism. If Prism's scum, it's a lot more convenient since we'll have all of tomorrow and I can show you exactly why Shadow's D1 play never comes from scum.

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Post Post #3307  (isolation #72)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:15 pm

Honestly, it reminds me of a couple of my off-site scumgames where I decide to just go full-on bus-mode and play it like I'll be the last one standing. His push on LUV is based on something that's not very strong (LUV apparently plagiarized what Prism wrote), and he starts a massive push there. The wording especially ("the more votes on LUV" declarations) really reminds me of what I'd do if I committed to bussing. If he's scum, he's been pretty smooth with that and the reasons have flowed pretty well. But the more experience you have, the more believable you can make your busses.

His Boring push is similar. There's no real smoking gun. Just a lot of calling Boring scum for I don't know what reason. It's not like Implosion's suspicion which was absolutely dead-on. Then there's the subtle "why isn't Implosion pushing Boring more" which ties them together. I don't really understand how he got the reads he did basically. Boring and LUV are always in his scumpile except for some points where he votes a strategic mislynch (Eagersnake or Grendel). The competence he displayed with going after Boring doesn't square with his horrendous push on Eagersnake, Implosion, and now me (assuming he's town, you have to be scum so he'd be wrong).

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Post Post #3308  (isolation #73)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:23 pm

Contrary to Shadow_Step's insistence that the lynch had to happen no matter what, I actually think scum would have benefited tremendously from that EagerSnake lynch. They get a mislynch in the bag, Shadow_Step looks scummy as heck from it, and so on. Your vote on Boring just shows that you didn't treat her any differently than you treated anyone else. You made a spoilered case on her. Scum really needed that Eagersnake lynch over Boring and Prism's vote was one of the votes that put it over the top. If Prism truly was suspicious of Boring like he claims, he should have voted her D1 but that suspicion somehow falls to the wayside and he helps Eager get lynched.

His reasoning for voting Eagersnake is pretty much crap. Eagersnake apparently is playing it exactly like he should as scum? How on Earth was he expecting a town-Eagersnake to play it if Eager was reading Shadow as town? That consideration was never there and the vote was incredibly opportunistic.

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Post Post #3312  (isolation #74)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:43 pm

Sure, I wouldn't mind. I didn't think the mod would actually allow it or I would have asked sooner.

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Post Post #3313  (isolation #75)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:45 pm

By the way, if we do have an extension, I prefer the deadline to be sometime during the evening or night PST as opposed to the early AM. I'd like to be actually on at deadline.

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Post Post #3315  (isolation #76)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:42 pm

Day 6 - Pages 126 and 127

I'll separate this out for Prism and nn30.

@Prism

- A couple of issues I have with this post. One, making nn30 explain why he townreads you looks to me like you are encouraging him to townread you even more by getting into the mindset of explaining why he thinks you are town. Two, I find the focus on townreads of you to be a really weird thing to be pressing on. It seems like you are more interested in getting people to give townreads that are hard to walk back on while you should be aware that re-evaluating and re-assessing reads is absolutely necessary for good town play. It feels very self-preservationist. Why does it matter to you so much that people can't easily back out of their townreads on you? If they do it in a scummy way, then you've nailed them. The focus is all wrong here.

- The way I phrased that read (by saying that it would be poor sportsmanship of you to replace out as scum) is the reason I take so much issue with your trying to refute that read and trying to imply that you would have done it as scum too. I'm going to straight up ask again: would you have posted that replace-out request as scum? If so, my understanding of you as a player has been wrong. If not, then I fail to see why you take as much issue with the read as you are doing. For most people, this would absolutely be a towntell. Replacing out when they get caught is just a really shitty thing to do as scum. I think Shadow_Step recognized that too. Why you expect him to think that he's got scum on the ropes and they flailed and replaced out boggles my mind. It makes me wonder if you actually did do it as scum.

- Wtf is this? Shadow had an ego and you didn't understand why so he's scum? You claimed to have played mafia for five years so surely it would occur to you that there are so many players who look at their town play through rose colored glasses. Who think that their scum lynch rate is absolutely awesome and when they are wrong, they just blame it on the person they mislynched because "he shouldn't have been so damn scummy!" Shadow being convinced that the Eager lynch was necessary was frustrating but is hardly something that you would never see from town. This entire post reads like you are manipulating nn30 and trying to make him angry that Shadow called him a newbie. Shadow's replace out was absolutely not likely to happen as mafia. I'm not even saying it wasn't alignment-indicative. I'm flat-out saying it's a towntell. As mafia, if people are dismissing you as VI-town or calling you arrogant-town, you thrive on that, you win the game, and you show them who's the VI. But as town, being disrespected can be frustrating and I assume that's why he's had enough and replaced out because of that.

- So, your major reason to suspect nn30 is simply because of his push on you. Throughout this lylo, the only criticism you had of him was that he was pushing you which struck me as a very odd thing to focus on. The major reason to suspect me early on D6 was that you were worried that I'd walk back on the townread I gave you for almost replacing out. I also said that you were scummy through my initial read of the thread so it seems like you are worried that I'd be the one to figure you out and are pre-empting that by choosing to set yourself up against me. As opposed to nn30 who the two of you've been mutually townreading all game. I also don't see what scum motivation I would have to hard-townread you for that replace out when no one did and then walk back on it, when I could have simply left you in the lynchpool to begin with.

- This interpretation of Shadow's replace out is ridiculous and I have a really, really hard time buying that you actually believe it for reasons I outlined in the previous few paragraphs.

@nn30

- This is just a bad mentality to get into. There is no circumstance under which town don't deserve to win the game. I'm of the opinion that every game is solvable. This is probably one of the harder lylo decisions I've had to make. Typically I find it a lot easier.

- Somehow I missed the timing of this post the first time around. This definitely happened when I said I was pretty much voting nn30 and it seemed like he could win a 1v1 against me with Prism as the decider. Prism later saying that he never gave nn30 an olive branch seems like a stretch because as of this post, I'm sure Prism would have voted me over nn30 so I do take this to be a towntell. I in fact, don't understand why the heck Prism was townreading you so this pretty nailed it.

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Post Post #3317  (isolation #77)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:24 pm

Actually, you telling me to vote you made me think you were scum because that's exactly what I would have expected if you were scum waiting on one of us to vote so you could quickhammer.

What really started making me think Prism was scum was when I finished reading up to D5, decided I was likely going to vote you, took a break and thought about this game. It just didn't feel right so I started thinking about the possibility Prism was scum. Then seeing his posts this lylo was what really sold it for me. His interpretation of Shadow's posts seemed like he's stretching past the point of believability. Without any offence, I'll also say that Prism came across as more experienced than you. You seem to have started playing mafia on a forum only recently, and it's more a stretch to believe that you are playing like this than it is that Prism strategically bussed and that his too-perfect play is actually indicative of good scumplay.

The fact that I couldn't get behind why he was scumreading Boring or LUV added to that and it seemed like an informed perspective. Your early case on Boring doesn't seem too good to be true because you were literally throwing out spoilered cases left, right, and center. It's only natural that you would have a case on Boring at some point. You didn't treat her any differently than you treated anyone else.

The Eagersnake/Shadow cc battle was extremely advantageous for scum. Prism's play there took advantage of it despite him saying that Boring was scum at a very critical juncture. Yours is contrary to the scum wincon. If Boring was lynched D1, scum would have been in a much worse position. Prism's actual reason for scumreading Eagersnake was several levels of horrible that only sunk in once I really started thinking about and investigating it.

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Post Post #3319  (isolation #78)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:46 pm

Day 6 - Pages 128 and 129

@Prism

- I did understand what you were saying about Shadow. You're saying that he's scum being disrespected despite doing his job well and that's why he replaced out. That's ridiculous. If you are scum, everyone dismissing you as bad town is a dream. They're the ones who'll get a shock after you win against them. I'm aware that you didn't say his arrogance was a scumtell. But even saying that he had no reason to be arrogant is a poor argument because it's perfectly possible that Shadow thought that the Eagersnake lynch was absolutely necessary. In fact, the way he reacted to it by saying that only scum would be against it makes perfect sense with the rest of his personality and opinion of himself. He still thinks he did the right thing by pushing that lynch.

@nn30

- It's true that some scum don't talk to their partners but what you pointed out regarding Shadow and Prism is within the margin of error. Whether or not scum talk to their partners also depends on the circumstances of the game. I will say that sometimes scum tend to push their partners without interacting with them much because when you bus, you are doing it for show and for the towncred more than you do it to sort your partners alignment which is what I suspect with Prism. Shadow was townreading Boring for most D1 for supporting his Eagersnake push. I know the townread was dumb but it's something that makes sense from his perspective. So, he didn't feel the need to talk to her very much because he had dismissed her as town. If you are town, you should also know that drastic flips can come from town. Evidence: your play this game. Shadow's flip on you isn't damning at all, since new information came to light through flips, he naturally changed his reads. I don't think Shadow's argument that there was at least one scum bussing Boring was a bad one. It's reasonable to speculate on it and work it into everything else when making a decision.

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Post Post #3326  (isolation #79)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:50 pm

Day 6 - Pages 130 to 133 (current)

@Prism

- I'm just curious what you mean by "power play" here. Can you elaborate a bit?

- Here's something you are missing. Your job isn't simply to lynch Boring. It's to figure out her alignment. If you are town, you first need to interact with her, engage her, and develop your read. You said yourself that you like interacting with people to get reads so just saying that you weren't talking to Boring because people won't be convinced by that misses the point that figuring out Boring's alignment is something you should have been doing if you had suspicions that she was scum (she seemed to be in your null-scum area for most of the early game).

- I don't understand how you buy this so easily. This isn't a particularly strong argument in context. People change their scumplay based on how a game unfolds.


@nn30

- I have no idea where Boring would put her buddies but I know it's not right at the top of her list. I'll also say I found it somewhat weird that she said Slandaar's replace out was scummy. It felt like inside info.

- I didn't find anything significant about and . The fact that he's responding to Boring in the way he did gives us a baseline for how he interacts with his partners. His response to Prism seems similar but I don't find it alignment-indicative.

- I think Boring was taking advantage of the cc situation. This is actually one of the things I wanted to bring up as for why my slot is town. If it was pre-determined by the scumteam that Shadow would counterclaim, wouldn't Boring have put Eager somewhere null to scum? Having Eager and Shadow both as top townreads and then having Shadow counterclaim Eager means Boring has to do a pretty big re-evaluation of her reads which shows it wasn't pre-planned. The scumteam was legit taken by surprise at this counterclaim. Then they all jumped at the opportunity. Boring on Eager and LUV on Shadow. It became apparent that they couldn't get the back to back lynches though so they seemed to have dropped the idea but I remember Boring pushing my predecessor as late as D4 so maybe not.

- This doesn't really sit right with me. Like I said, just because you decided in that scumgame, in that circumstance that bussing was a bad idea doesn't mean that you wouldn't do it in a completely different circumstance.

- I (and I assume most people who have played mafia for a while) tend to use similar kinds of rhetoric and similar case-making regardless of alignment. But it doesn't happen in the same way at the same time. Saying "you are kidding, right?" is more of a personality quirk. Looking over interactions is something I do as town all the time. It comes naturally to me as scum because I try to replicate my townplay the best I can.

- Implosion's post honestly didn't convince me one way or another. When I was convinced you were scum, it didn't sway me. Now when I've come around to thinking it's Prism, I guess Implosion was probably right.

- You are correct that it's totally different behavior. A few things account for this: There, I was replacing into a conf-town slot in LYLO, I had not followed that game, and was coming in with barely any information. So, I started talking to both of my lylo companions, asking them questions, and finally did a read of the game and cast my vote. Here, I was following the game since D1. I cheered when the Boring wagon cropped up. I gaped at my screen horrified when EagerSnake was getting lynched. I got annoyed when people started thinking one of the two had to be scum and Implosion and MariaR were the only ones making sense. I was surprised Boring survived as long as she did despite being scummy D1. So, when I replaced in, my reaction was noticeably different than in my other game. I wanted Boring dead as she lived way longer than she should have so started pushing the hell out of her.

- I noticed it independently, later realized you said the same thing regarding it being a co-ordinated bus.

- That's basically where I'm at. I know I'm town so I know one of you were wrong about the other and it was easier to see Prism as the experienced player pocketing to newer player than that he's been completely and utterly oblivious to you being scum. Obviously, this is a biased reading with knowledge that I'm town.

- Like I said, just because you didn't bus once doesn't mean you won't bus in a different game even if it's at the same time. This is not a strong argument and even if you are town, I'm not making my decision based off of that.

- You made a case on Boring. You hopped onto a town led wagon in fifth place. Both of these are objective facts, not "ideas" that I have.

- It's true that there could be scum motivation behind posting a weak read on Dierfire and letting town lynch him without my assistance. But put yourself in my shoes: I'm town. I had a weak read on Dierfire. I thought it was most likely you but wondered if I was wrong and everyone else was right. I didn't want to take a chance at derailing a scum lynch and game end. I wasn't hard-townreading Dierfire so with a read like that, it'd be impossible to convince everyone that they were wrong.



I think that's it until Prism returned. Going to tackle these directly.

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Post Post #3327  (isolation #80)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:01 pm

In post 3321, Prism wrote:The post where I voted Eager after realizing I can't get Implosion:
In post 1195, Prism wrote:Eager has pretty quickly switched from "perfect scumplay" to overplaying his hand hard with the constant "I'm town and I'll flip it watch out." It shows that he saw what was working and decided to keep approaching that angle without realizing the returns diminish significantly as you go. I really wanted to vote Implosion here but it's pretty clear to me that nobody is willing to do it-hit me up if that changes.
My reasoning for thinking Eager was scum was just like everyone else's-mechanical skepticism, followed by his reaction well after his "perfect scumplay/genuine townplay". His assertion that Shadow was town too was what was NAI-the Shadow lynch was straight up never happening Day 1 and everybody knew it. Scum Eager is forced to call him town, just like town Eager might arrive at the conclusion naturally.

You said that either Eager was scum or that both were town so straight up, you buy the possibility of two town ascetics. That should never have been a reason for you to vote Eager. You've admitted that pretty much everything is not alignment indicative except for Eager saying "I'm town and I'll flip it, watch out." That's a crap reason to vote him over your other suspect Boring.

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Post Post #3330  (isolation #81)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:17 pm

@Prism, it's true that you pushed Boring after LUV's lynch but Implosion and others were not buying her as town and it didn't seem like the town at large thought she was clear (at least from memory of my re-read). You could have noticed that Boring was getting lynched anyways and decided that you needed to double-bus. That's what getting to me. Town rarely have "perfect-looking play." Town doesn't know who scum is so play is typically more chaotic and sometimes horrendously wrong. Yours wasn't. You always had Boring and LUV as suspects. Yet, it took four days to lynch them. Both D1 and D3, you hopped onto some very opportunistic town lynches, first with Eagersnake and then with Grendel.

When I was reading as a spectator, yeah I thought you were scum initially, then the LUV push made me second-guess but I stopped following the game really closely and didn't have anyone I was suspecting in your place. When you posted that replace out request, initial reaction was "oh, well I was wrong. No way Prism posts a replace out request here."

In any case, doesn't really seem like you are trying to figure out the game. The notable thing is that both I and nn30 had considered both options. You haven't. You stuck with your nn30 read for I-don't-know-what reason and it just feels like you are having trouble trying to come up with a new read because nn30 was the guy you wanted to bring to endgame. The only time you really question him is when I was attacking him and he made a case on you. But once I turned on you, it's suddenly back to me being scum. It all reads very convenient. I've made my decision and I think it's time we just vote each other.

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Post Post #3332  (isolation #82)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:19 pm

Key thoughts I'm basing this decision off of:

Prism's vote on Eagersnake while nn30 pushed a Boring case.
Prism's sticky townread on nn30 reading like manipulation.
Opportunistic switch to Grendel and just not seeming like he was trying to read Boring or LUV and coming off as informed.
I just think nn30's ridiculous level of activity and playing both sides in lylo would be hard to fake as scum.

VOTE: Prism

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Post Post #3339  (isolation #83)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:28 pm

Nice! It's been a really long time since I've voted wrong in lylo. I've been mislynched in lylo once offsite but won all my other lylo games as town, and it's been nearly two years since I've actually cast a wrong vote so I'm pretty stoked to have solved this game.

@nn30, I'm going to lay out exactly why Shadow_Step is town. Given I haven't been here for most of the game, I feel that this is necessary. Also, note that I'm not taking the route that scum just LOVE to take which is "I can't answer for any of predecessor's actions" because I have been explaining to you what he was thinking all along.

In the meantime, if you have any other doubts about me, bring them up and we'll go over them.

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Post Post #3340  (isolation #84)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:29 pm

The deadline is on Friday 4:15 PM PST. Just putting this out here so I know when it is.

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Post Post #3345  (isolation #85)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:53 pm

I explained it here:
In post 3326, BlackVoid wrote:You are correct that it's totally different behavior. A few things account for this: There, I was replacing into a conf-town slot in LYLO, I had not followed that game, and was coming in with barely any information. So, I started talking to both of my lylo companions, asking them questions, and finally did a read of the game and cast my vote. Here, I was following the game since D1. I cheered when the Boring wagon cropped up. I gaped at my screen horrified when EagerSnake was getting lynched. I got annoyed when people started thinking one of the two had to be scum and Implosion and MariaR were the only ones making sense. I was surprised Boring survived as long as she did despite being scummy D1. So, when I replaced in, my reaction was noticeably different than in my other game. I wanted Boring dead as she lived way longer than she should have so started pushing the hell out of her.

Did you want me to elaborate or did you just miss this post? As far as my scumgame, I replaced in and posted my reads because that's what would be expected. When I replace in midgame, I post my reads and push suspects. It's what I do as town and what I try to replicate as scum. Replacing in as conf-town in lylo is different because the game hinges on my decision.

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Post Post #3347  (isolation #86)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:57 pm

If by "dictating," you mean pushing my reads, that's a standard thing I'd do regardless of what my alignment was.

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Post Post #3348  (isolation #87)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:00 am

Pushing lynches on my scumreads is how I win games as town which is what I did here. I had Boring as a really solid scumread so I pushed there. As scum, I'm not going to do something entirely different or that would be a dead give-away. I replace in, decide what reads I want to fake and push those fake reads in a way that I think I would push them as town.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3352  (isolation #88)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:25 am

My scumread of you wasn't opportunistic. There was something about your play that I thought was really shifty and like cheeky scum. Mostly, the way you changed positions was was hard to keep track of. One moment you'd push one read, and then you'd push another. Something about that felt weird.

When I replaced in, I thought Prism was for-sure town because of how he got frustrated with Shadow_Step and needed time to "cool down." I just couldn't believe that he would go so far as scum (and I'm sure he'd justify it in endgame by saying that he was just frustrated with Shadow overall). So, with that townread on Prism, a hard scumread on Boring, and Implosion and Zornos being clear, that just left you and Dierfire. I wasn't completely sure which of you it was but I was leaning towards it being you.

You then responded by scumreading me. I thought you figured that it was going to be you vs me at endgame and decided to scumread me to set up for that. That made me more confident you were scum so I doubled down.

The first ping I got from Prism was when he started arguing that he would in fact post that replace out request as scum. It seemed like he was trying to justify it and refute my reasoning that if he was scum, he was unsportsmanlike. He really seemed bothered by that implication. The next ping I got was when he started highlighting Shadow's ego and making all sorts of ridiculous arguments about how he wasn't justified to have the ego he did. That felt like he was trying to make you angry at my slot as opposed to honestly believing what he said.

The other thing is what I mentioned before when I took a break from the game. It seemed like the evidence on the surface pointed towards you but it just didn't feel right: you didn't push Boring much after D1 or after the LUV lynch and Prism's record seemed pristine. And yet, you put so much content in the thread in so many different directions I had a hard time pulling the trigger. So, I looked at the alternative: Prism has a low rate of posting, is usually concise and to-the-point, and he's been accurate with his reads, yet his analysis wasn't very strong. "LUV plagiarized me" is a weak thing to pick up on and that he was right felt more like an informed stance. A close look at his jump onto the Eager wagon was what finally sold it for me. That reasoning was total nonsense and it got a mislynch when it looked like scum was in trouble.

I really was hesitant to vote anyone but you because I felt like I had you pegged since I replaced in and it would have sucked if I let you endgame me so I was somewhat stubborn about that read. But ultimately, the evidence stacked up and it became apparent that Prism was playing the long-game by strategically bussing his partners.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3367  (isolation #89)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:21 pm

Prism's entire premise that "contradictions" are scummy is wrong. Oftentimes, town contradict themselves because they are going over multiple theories and possibilities while trying to solve the game. These tend to come out at various points and sometimes seem inconsistent with previously stated viewpoints. I'd go so far as to say it's rarer for scum to contradict themselves because they already know the answers and have a fairly linear story that they want to sell.

As far as my read as a spectator, I had Boring, Prism, and LUV as my D1 scumteam guess as I followed the game. With LUV's lynch and scumflip, I started wondering whether I was wrong on Prism but I didn't have anyone else I could solidly slot as scum. Maybe Grendel? I wasn't paying much attention to the game at that point as I felt chances of replacing in were slim. But it was definitely a case of me thinking about both Prism-town and Prism-scum possibilities. After Grendel started towntelling and flipped town, I started wondering if it was Prism again but it wasn't really a strong, confident read. When he posted the replace out request, initial reaction was a strong "Prism is town." When I replaced in, I pointed out that I thought it was Boring, Prism, and LUV but with that replace out request, I started thinking it was you or Dierfire.

Prism claims that my entire walls are riddled with contradictions. He's probably right. Heck, I called you scummy for playing both sides, then decided that your playing both sides comes from town. Interpreting events differently and considering multiple theories is just something that happens when you're comparing two sets of evidence and trying to figure out which one fits.

That's where Prism's consistency is scummy. He hasn't been doing this. I think he predicted that I'd be most likely to vote him upon a re-read of the thread because I was scumreading his slot save for that one replace-out which I saw as a towntell whereas you and he were townreading each other throughout. So, he continued with the townread he had on you while setting himself up against me. There aren't contradictions in his posts or evolving stances where he suspects you for something, then thinks it's town and so on. There's just a linear story crafted in a way that he thinks would appeal to you. When you push him, he pushes back (mildly) but always concludes that you're more likely town - almost in a way to discourage you from attacking him.

Also, I have put in a very genuine effort at solving the game. I think this is apparent. Prism's response is to take posts out of context, slap together pairs of quotes and go "oh, look contradiction!"

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3369  (isolation #90)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:32 pm

In post 3365, nn30 wrote:Found this. Might point to why a scum Shadow_Step would see the need to take out the town ascetic in Eager Snake.

viewtopic.php?t=68324&f=90&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=27924&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go

Time frame is similar too.

He complained about balance in a different game but it's still a stretch for him to counterclaim ascetic as scum and risk being lynched in a one for one. That would make the game even more skewed towards the town. He can't have known that he wouldn't be instantly lynched right after.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3375  (isolation #91)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:50 pm

On Shadow's reads - I don't think all of his reads were dependent purely on Eager. I think he planned to get some reads based off of how people reacted to him and how he treated others but it's not going to go perfectly as planned.

He had Penguin and Gamma as his next suspects after Eager. explains his Penguin read pretty well. He thought Penguin had Eagersnake as null because Penguin was a hedging on his buddy. Gamma read is explained in . Then in , he starts trying to wagon Penguin because apparently, he wanted to see how Eager would react to a wagon on him. also explains why he scumreads Gamma and Penguin together. The rest just seemed to be varying degrees of town and null and he doesn't really go into reasons but does mention them in his ISO.

You seem to not buy Shadow's assertion that Eager and Penguin could be scum because Eager was pushing Penguin. But bussing is actually pretty common. Your reluctance to bus isn't something that applies to everyone, and I can see why Shadow thought Eager was bussing Penguin.

I think the bigger point is just how genuine and in-depth his thought process was here. You can tell that he truly believed Eagersnake was scum because he was hunting for Eager's hypothetical buddies and analyzing how they interact with him. That's just at a level I simply found impossible for Shadow-scum to have faked even when I was reading as a spectator.

Shadow may have loved WIFOM but I don't think he's a strong enough scum player to be able to pull off what he did. Did you meta Shadow by the way? His scumgame is actually not very strong. Even in the game you linked earlier, he was lynched mid-game and he wasn't a strong, vocal voice amongst the town.

I don't think the quote you posted is a lie so much as Shadow just misremembering what happened.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3379  (isolation #92)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:36 pm

Dude, I'm town. You shouldn't have voted suddenly like that. It was really, really obvious that my predecessor was town to the point I'd have lynched the whole game before him. I thought you were going to give me more time to help you make the right decision and you just threw that out of the blue without giving me a chance to respond.

I realize this is just a game and I shouldn't get frustrated over it but honestly, this is what I hate about lylos. I pick right and someone else always manages to screw it up for god-knows-what reason. That's why I seriously considered trying to get you to vote Prism rather than leaving you with the deciding vote.

It seemed to me like you were leaning towards Prism anyways so that just came out of the blue and I don't know why flipped the way you did.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3381  (isolation #93)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:41 pm

Holy crap, I thought that was the hammer. I completely forgot Prism never actually voted me. Nicely done.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3384  (isolation #94)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:43 pm

Nah, I'm town. That was really well done. High-five.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3386  (isolation #95)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:46 pm

Out of curiosity, did you vote me just to see my reaction or had you made your decision at that point?

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3388  (isolation #96)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:48 pm

Yeah, I got annoyed because it was so sudden. I had planned to give you an extensive case detailing why Shadow_Step was town.

Prism really screwed up by not cross-voting me.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3390  (isolation #97)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:53 pm

You too. You made the right decision in the end even though Prism was really trying to pocket you. That's all that matters game-wise.

BlackVoid
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Post Post #3487  (isolation #98)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:51 pm

Since you asked for feedback, if I could make a small constructive suggestion:

The way you asked me and Prism to respond to each other is something that I think could be improved on. Normally, you don't want to ask people to make cases on each other. From my POV, Prism was confirmed scum so anything I say about him at that point would be conf-bias and not a genuine case. Since I'm approaching the case with inside knowledge of already knowing the answer, it would look a lot like a scum case. What you did (tell us not to defend ourselves) was actually something that would have been more useful because explaining why my slot is town would have been good. In fact, I don't suggest asking people to respond to each other at all. Asking us direct questions and interacting with us would have been much better. I didn't want to talk to confirmed scum. I wanted to talk to you directly so bring up points that you thought were convincing.

Anyways, that's just my perspective. It's debatable whether asking two people to make cases on each other in lylo is a good thing and if that helps you, I suppose you should go for it. But normally I think it won't.


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