Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[Flubbernugget]

No no no no No fucking NO

I really can't belive you guys are arguing like you can only be paranoid of one single thing in the world

If you're going to quote my post, try to make yours relevant to what I said in that post.

Stop fighting with people because the way they define words doesn't have your seal of approval

If they twist definitions to fit into a scum mindset, then yes I'll lynch them over it.

As opposed to you twisting definitions to fit a scum read?

All me when I've done that.

Guys, either scum read one another or dont and stop arguing. If this is TvT then it does nothing to actually further the game, i am politely asking you to focus.

Grey is playing in a way that makes his intentions ambiguous and that needed to be highlighted

You have again made a post more meaningless than the ones you are calling out.

[Flubbernugget]

Though in light of what I said, Grey why are you even going to argue with me if your intent is just to bicker?

[-Grey-]

No no no no No fucking NO

I really can't belive you guys are arguing like you can only be paranoid of one single thing in the world

If you're going to quote my post, try to make yours relevant to what I said in that post.

Stop fighting with people because the way they define words doesn't have your seal of approval

If they twist definitions to fit into a scum mindset, then yes I'll lynch them over it.

As opposed to you twisting definitions to fit a scum read?

All me when I've done that.

And we now have gone full circle through the pointlessness of your pedantry. Am I supposed to know how you define and see the world without knowing you?

Nor should you act as if you do.

[Kairal]

If massive flips scum, she would be less suspicious, not more.

Scum have more motive to defend town than their buddies.

I just finished a game where scum played like you're suggesting. She succeeded in buying town cred but because she never tried to throw suspicion or defend her scum buddy she lost by process of elimination. Scum want to look town but at some point have to start playing towards a scum objective or else they too will find themselves losing from PoE. In this case massive is a possible but not certain lynch - exactly the time for scum buddies to come forward and try to shift the wagon elsewhere. That's why I think Io is a likely scum buddy for massive. That said obviously you vote the person you think is actually scum and then look for buddies later. Thus I'm voting massive and simply pointing out Io's interaction in case I don't make it to tomorrow.

[Flubbernugget]

No no no no No fucking NO

I really can't belive you guys are arguing like you can only be paranoid of one single thing in the world

If you're going to quote my post, try to make yours relevant to what I said in that post.

Stop fighting with people because the way they define words doesn't have your seal of approval

If they twist definitions to fit into a scum mindset, then yes I'll lynch them over it.

As opposed to you twisting definitions to fit a scum read?

All me when I've done that.

And we now have gone full circle through the pointlessness of your pedantry. Am I supposed to know how you define and see the world without knowing you?

Nor should you act as if you do.

I will explicitly state my point

Your idea that someone is scum over how they use one or two words is shit

It is also the perfect way to play if you can't formulate a meaningful read

[-Grey-]

No no no no No fucking NO

I really can't belive you guys are arguing like you can only be paranoid of one single thing in the world

If you're going to quote my post, try to make yours relevant to what I said in that post.

Stop fighting with people because the way they define words doesn't have your seal of approval

If they twist definitions to fit into a scum mindset, then yes I'll lynch them over it.

As opposed to you twisting definitions to fit a scum read?

All me when I've done that.

And we now have gone full circle through the pointlessness of your pedantry. Am I supposed to know how you define and see the world without knowing you?

Nor should you act as if you do.

I will explicitly state my point

Your idea that someone is scum over how they use one or two words is shit

It is also the perfect way to play if you can't formulate a meaningful read

I will explicitly state my point.

You not liking my point doesn't nullify it.

Arguing with me without even attempting to understand me is not going to sway me to your point of view.

Now piss off, in done with you.

[Io]

@ Io. You've ignored my every attempt to question you until now and I suspect you will continue to do so, but hey doesn't cost anything to try. Why did you vote AJ based on a post I hadn't made? To me this suggests you don't really care about reasoning through your AJ vote- the obvious explanation is that you already know you want to lynch him because you are scum and he is town. Thus you screwed up by citing a post that didn't exist and have refused to explain it because you can't.

Looking back at it I just said the wrong name actually. I went ahead and re-read the first 7 pages since that's what I was referring too (mostly page 5 and 6) and I said you're name when I had meant Grey. The post I had made in 166 was in response to to 116 and the previous few posts. I just never double checked who was talking and thought it was you so then the post I grabbed from your ISO about AJ was the first one I saw from you about AJ. But yeah I was meaning to have talked about Grey not you.

I also haven't ignored you, pretty sure I've answered everything you said, most of it asking me to explain the vote which is annoying since I did it I think 5 times now 6 albeit just not realizing I said the wrong name.

@IAI no, but I'm still not seeing a reason to move it to someone else, no one has been giving any reason to vote them or another person that I have seen.

Hmm. Hmm. I guess it is the obvious explanation. Is there a scum motivation to not explaining you meant grey instead of me until now? I can't really see one.

Well the motivation is I just noticed my mistake.

My reasons for town reading Massive are based off of my Flubber slight scum read. It's not that I'm extremley confident he's town, just I don't think he is scum.

Pretty confident in Newman, Grey, and kai being town.
To lesser extent Shadow and Massive.

I said here my only strong reads are those 3, but my slight town were Shadow and Massive.

[Flubbernugget]

No no no no No fucking NO

I really can't belive you guys are arguing like you can only be paranoid of one single thing in the world

If you're going to quote my post, try to make yours relevant to what I said in that post.

Stop fighting with people because the way they define words doesn't have your seal of approval

If they twist definitions to fit into a scum mindset, then yes I'll lynch them over it.

As opposed to you twisting definitions to fit a scum read?

All me when I've done that.

And we now have gone full circle through the pointlessness of your pedantry. Am I supposed to know how you define and see the world without knowing you?

Nor should you act as if you do.

I will explicitly state my point

Your idea that someone is scum over how they use one or two words is shit

It is also the perfect way to play if you can't formulate a meaningful read

I will explicitly state my point.

You not liking my point doesn't nullify it.

Arguing with me without even attempting to understand me is not going to sway me to your point of view.

Now piss off, in done with you.

Really? If there was something I didn't understand you surely would have caught it as soon as I accused you of being pedantic (ie meaningless)?

[Aj The Epic]

Starting the final's gauntlet so this is mostly a prodge.

If massive flips scum, she would be less suspicious, not more.

Scum have more motive to defend town than their buddies.

I just finished a game where scum played like you're suggesting. She succeeded in buying town cred but because she never tried to throw suspicion or defend her scum buddy she lost by process of elimination. Scum want to look town but at some point have to start playing towards a scum objective or else they too will find themselves losing from PoE. In this case massive is a possible but not certain lynch - exactly the time for scum buddies to come forward and try to shift the wagon elsewhere. That's why I think Io is a likely scum buddy for massive. That said obviously you vote the person you think is actually scum and then look for buddies later. Thus I'm voting massive and simply pointing out Io's interaction in case I don't make it to tomorrow.

Scum doesn't necessarily have to do something scummy, they just eventually will have to be wrong. But as this is expected, it IS possible to play a perfectly town game as scum, they'd just end up with a few mislynches here or there.

[Kairal]

Starting the final's gauntlet so this is mostly a prodge.

If massive flips scum, she would be less suspicious, not more.

Scum have more motive to defend town than their buddies.

I just finished a game where scum played like you're suggesting. She succeeded in buying town cred but because she never tried to throw suspicion or defend her scum buddy she lost by process of elimination. Scum want to look town but at some point have to start playing towards a scum objective or else they too will find themselves losing from PoE. In this case massive is a possible but not certain lynch - exactly the time for scum buddies to come forward and try to shift the wagon elsewhere. That's why I think Io is a likely scum buddy for massive. That said obviously you vote the person you think is actually scum and then look for buddies later. Thus I'm voting massive and simply pointing out Io's interaction in case I don't make it to tomorrow.

Scum doesn't necessarily have to do something scummy, they just eventually will have to be wrong. But as this is expected, it IS possible to play a perfectly town game as scum, they'd just end up with a few mislynches here or there.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for scum to perfectly pretend to be town. I'm saying it's a losing strategy, and as such I expect scum will try to influence discussion away from their partners, try to fan suspicion against townies. If they never do so they run a risk of town getting too organized and losing badly.

In this case we currently have 3 quite likely lynches: Io, massive and Newman. It's unlikely they're all town and also unlikely they're all scum (at least to my mind). Therefore this is exactly the time when scum will try to subtly shift discussion towards some wagons and not others. Depending on the flip we get the conversation around this time could be extremely enlightening in hindsight.

[massive]

You know on second thought that might be a bit overaggressive. In any case, you need to re-assess me Kairal, and you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance because you're going to find a LOT of players who won't and who will further demand that you follow them based solely on their reputation. I'm voting who I think is scum. End of story.

So uh a lot of players are anti town

Why is this okay and why does it excuse your play

I'm not saying it's ok nor am I trying to "excuse" my play. I don't have any issue with my play.

[massive]

Also, VOTE: Secret Agent Jin

[Dierfire]

@Io

Looking back at it I just said the wrong name actually. I went ahead and re-read the first 7 pages since that's what I was referring too (mostly page 5 and 6) and I said you're name when I had meant Grey. The post I had made in 166 was in response to to 116 and the previous few posts. I just never double checked who was talking and thought it was you so then the post I grabbed from your ISO about AJ was the first one I saw from you about AJ. But yeah I was meaning to have talked about Grey not you.

I also haven't ignored you, pretty sure I've answered everything you said, most of it asking me to explain the vote which is annoying since I did it I think 5 times now 6 albeit just not realizing I said the wrong name.

Ha ha, I'd think that you'd acknowledge that the repetition was warranted now that you've also acknowledged that your given response didn't make much sense!
Anyway, this is the post from -Grey- to which you refer:

However Confbias can absolutely come from scum (they know the roles from the getgo).

Scum cannot confbias a scumread, which is what you were accusing me of.

Hair splitting and doubling down does nothing to make me townread you.

I'm not really finding that a compelling reason to vote for Aj The Epic (not even then, but certainly not now). I've already discussed (in 655) why I also don't find compelling reasons in your 439. Have you more to offer?

You said that you thought that HellloooNewman and massive are Town. I think that you've discussed most of the players voting for them, but maybe you could share your thoughts on Secret Agent Jin and Kairal? I'm reading the former in the Null-Mafia range and the latter as Town.

[-Grey-]

I'm not really finding that a compelling reason to vote for Aj The Epic (not even then, but certainly not now). I've already discussed (in 655) why I also don't find compelling reasons in your 439. Have you more to offer?

You said that you thought that HellloooNewman and massive are Town. I think that you've discussed most of the players voting for them, but maybe you could share your thoughts on Secret Agent Jin and Kairal? I'm reading the former in the Null-Mafia range and the latter as Town.

Do try to be current in reads if you are going to question them.

Get back to me when you've caught up.

[Dierfire]

I've checked again, and as best as I can tell those are the most current reads that Io has given.

(Or perhaps including the quote from your ISO was confusing? Io cited your 116 as a reason to be suspicious of Aj The Epic and I am asking her whether she still stands by that)

[-Grey-]

I've checked again, and as best as I can tell those are the most current reads that Io has given.

(Or perhaps including the quote from your ISO was confusing? Io cited your 116 as a reason to be suspicious of Aj The Epic and I am asking her whether she still stands by that)

Your post appeared to be addressing me, not Io.

[Dierfire]

I apologize for the confusion. Every address in that post is for Io ("your 439" refers to a post by Io, "this is the post from -Grey- to which you refer" refers to her explanation given in 691)

[Dierfire]

@massive

Also, VOTE: Secret Agent Jin

I can think of reasons to vote for Secret Agent Jin, but perhaps you have others to share?

[MiniDeathStar]

Hi lovelies, I'm finally on solid land but I really can't catch up right now, probably later today. Sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

Spoiler: Summer-y of my catchup

Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and it's not like I really disagree with you a ton. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

I called you scum, and I called scum all the people you called town. Shouldn't you be kind of disagreeing with me on pretty much everything?

That definitely helps to shore up my opinion that you are nowhere near the obvtown that people want me to believe you are.

Obvtown people are such a pain, right? Can't lynch them, can't risk NK'ing them and running into the doctor. What to do, what to do... throw some shade maybe? Yeah! That'll show them!

you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance

But... it *is* anti-town.

Scum can't be paranoid, they have to fake it which is what Newman is doing.

Actually I think there's two kinds of scum paranoia: that you look scummy, and that this person over there is onto you/your colleague and you must discredit them asap.

Your push reeks of covering up what you thought would provide for an easy lynch

Reality check:

I wouldn't be averse to swinging the wagon over to Flubs.

Nah. Flubsy-bubsy is scummy but massive is a whole next dimension of scumminess. I'm still entertaining the slight possibility that Flub is actually town, just really really scummy/lynchbaity town. I remember he was in everyone's scumpile in Io's game and ultimately got mislynched and town lost. That's why I'm going to give him a little more leeway.

MDS, SAJ, maybe Grey

Excellent. Then help me and Grey bus massive.

Umm guys. The Grey/Flub argument is literally the most pointless thing in this thread after the agree/concur debate. Please drop it.

I can think of reasons to vote for Secret Agent Jin, but perhaps you have others to share?

Massive sharing reasons for his vote? Which dimension did you come from, I want there like asap.

Okay done.

Still voting massive, but I could switch over to Io. Unsure about Newman, he looks kind of too scummy to be actual scum atm, if you know what I mean? Like, scum would probably be at least a bit more careful.

[Io]

Like I said it was the entire interaction between the 2, that post was mostly just the wrapping up point. 106 and 110 were the 2 main points I agreed with the most. The comfbais thing can be written off an NAI.

[-Grey-]

too scummy to be actual scum

That's not a thing.

[MiniDeathStar]

Like I said it was the entire interaction between the 2, that post was mostly just the wrapping up point. 106 and 110 were the 2 main points I agreed with the most. The comfbais thing can be written off an NAI.

Was that meant for me? I don't think it makes sense if it was, sorry.

too scummy to be actual scum

That's not a thing.

Have you never seen a super scummy villager who just says the wrong things at the wrong time, all the time? I feel like scum would at least make an actual effort not to look so bad.

[massive]

That definitely helps to shore up my opinion that you are nowhere near the obvtown that people want me to believe you are.

Obvtown people are such a pain, right? Can't lynch them, can't risk NK'ing them and running into the doctor. What to do, what to do... throw some shade maybe? Yeah! That'll show them!

Just because you say he's obvtown still doesn't make it so. But please continue to buddy the crap out of the poor kid. He still has no idea who to trust.

you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance

But... it *is* anti-town.

Prove it. Show me any game ever where every unexplained vote was by scum and every explained vote was by town.

I can think of reasons to vote for Secret Agent Jin, but perhaps you have others to share?

"Scum are causing confusion" (701) but then doesn't actually react to the confusion he believes has been caused as he wants to lynch one of the major wagons today and another tomorrow (712) (unless he thinks Io, Newman, and I are creating the confusion, which seems unlikely)

That being said I'm probably like five posts away from going back to MDS and locking in there for the rest of the game.

[MiniDeathStar]

Prove it. Show me any game ever where every unexplained vote was by scum and every explained vote was by town.

Anti-town doesn't always mean scum. Anti-town are just things that hurt town instead of helping (like lurking, claiming without reason and so on). I feel like you should already know this, so why are you pretending you don't know the difference?