Micro 670: Death Miller Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[GuiltyLion]

guys I'm so happy to be town, I was scum in my last three micros and being scum is just so exhausting

VOTE: karnos
serious vote, I've made a similar RVS vote as scum before

[GuiltyLion]

RK is town

I'll say it right now: if a cop gets a guilty on me, you lynch me, it's just the correct play.

this is a lynchable post, regardless of your alignment this was a bad thing to say

[GuiltyLion]

culted why

I got townvibes from 36 and 40

[GuiltyLion]

@lion
Why do you think RK is town?

36 and 40 are pro-town points and inquiries, RK is calling out scummy behavior from karnos.

Care to explain your logic? A guilty is 66% likely to be a true scum. You lynch that every fucking time, it's much better odds than anything else in the game.

it's not about your logic that you posted
it's about what you implied by posting it and the fact that you didn't consider or realize what you were implying when posting it

[GuiltyLion]

lmao

That's not gonna go anywhere

Do you understand what my problem is with your post, or do you not? You argue that I "didn't explain" my logic, yet you also implied that you get it when you say "I see what you're trying to do". Which is it? Do you see why your post was bad?

[GuiltyLion]

I currently like rb and Lemons for town as well

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not sold on scum!karnos but I don't like how his reaction in 52 was to try to peg me for some kind of hypocrisy so I'm trying to get more there if/when he answers my questions

why is 37 a scumpost?

[GuiltyLion]

Guilty u should answer 58 i wanna know why im town

a) I don't think 40 was proved to be inaccurate, the setup spec point doesn't matter nearly as much as your point about karnos defending himself against an accusation that hasn't happened. And everything else in 58 is exactly my problem with what karnos did. I'm on the same wavelength as you and it looks to me like you're trying to sort people. That's enough for a D1 early TR

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not sold on scum!karnos but I don't like how his reaction in 52 was to try to peg me for some kind of hypocrisy so I'm trying to get more there if/when he answers my questions

why is 37 a scumpost?

What you did is scummy, but spelling it out rewards scum so I can't do that right now.

Hopefully other posters can put 1 and 1 together to realize you are scum.

Oh no no no, what YOU did was scummy and what I did was call you out on potential bullshit.

You clearly get my problem with your original post by now, and you conceded it was a "play error". Why are you calling me scum for saying it was a bad post? And do you have no other thoughts on anything else that's happened?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm also not sure that it really was "intended" by karnos at the time, seeing as he asked me to explain to him why it was bad.

[GuiltyLion]

This is scum right here. Read the post in question. Think about my motivations, and why I would say what I said. Yes, there is a reason why I'd say what I said, it should be obvious to anyone who read the game setup.

WIFOM about your role on page 2 is not pro town bud, sorry. Either you made a VI move or you said something scummy and are trying to cover it up now. The fact that you're taking a hardcore binary approach of "GL calling me on this = scum" is not a good look for you

[GuiltyLion]

jumping on as only scum would

why do you believe this. Give me a neutral, objective answer.

[GuiltyLion]

No. Answer my question. You effectively claimed VT on page 2 because you weren't thinking about what you were saying, regardless of alignment. Is that because you're scum or VI? And why would "only scum" push you on it when you say something horrendously anti-town? Why is it impossible for me to be town in your eyes?

[GuiltyLion]

If you refuse to answer my question in 87, I will treat it as a literal scumclaim

[GuiltyLion]

lmao

WIFOM is scummy

not moving my vote unless karnos gets his head out of his ass and talks to me straight up about why I can't be town here

[GuiltyLion]

When the time comes I will explain.

also if I have my way, that time will be coming soon when you're at L-1

[GuiltyLion]

rb noah fence but this logic doesnt make any sense and youre missing that charlouxs initial scumread post was a blatant joke

even if youre scumreading him for his tone and responses, which is fine u do you, dont pretend this logic holds water

This also feels like she knows rb is town.

-Logic makes no sense - is that not why we scumread people? lol
-You somehow know he missed the joke and isn't scum misrepping
-Throws the biggest benefit of the doubt I've ever seen like, where did rb talk about tone at all
-Doesn't care if he keeps pushing him but doesn't think it holds water --- what

Like it feels too easy but I think it's just RK + someone who hasn't shown up yet.

in other news, now that RK has responded, I don't find this argument from culted convincing at all. I don't see a convincing reason to believe that RK "knows" rb is town versus the alternative explanation where RK is simply townreading rb.

[GuiltyLion]

let's get even more serious now and make things abundantly clear

1) karnos posted something stupid by implying that he can be guilted
2) I said it was a bad post
3) karnos asked me why
4) I pointed out that it implied he could be guiltied
5) karnos says I'm scum for pointing out that he implied that he could be guilted
6) I ask him why does that make me scum
7) karnos refuses to answer and starts WIFOMing that he actually intended to imply that for "reasons" which will be explained "later" aka he is now trying to soft that he actually can't be guilted after all

None of it what karnos is doing is town play. If karnos were town he'd be willing to answer me about why only scum would do #2 or #4, he'd have a good reason for thinking that. But he can't give a good reason, because I'm town and I did #2 and #4 to try to sort him based off of #1, to see if #1 was legitimately a stupid post or a scum post. karnos' response was to tunnel on me, refuse to engage with me directly, and also start instead trying to imply that he's a PR deliberately WIFOMing in #1. That's not a town response.

[GuiltyLion]

GL is playing very anti town. Without going into detail, one big difference between town and scum is such: a town player will look at a reason why an action might be taken by town, while scum players just need to look for a reason why an action might be taken by scum.

The is a perfectly good reason for my plan, I assure you, but the act of explaining it would ruin it.

uh, no, sorry, more bullshit.

Even if you are town, your "plan" is complete shit and indistinguishable from scum, and therefore trash play. What you did is functionally no different than claiming VT on page 2 in a normal setup (like a Newbie matrix setup, for example). It's WIFOM for the sake of WIFOM and completely worthless,

while giving you a cover to explain why you weren't NK'd, if you are scum

. Town shouldn't ever bullshit and introduce WIFOM and play games, town should hunt scum.

Which, by the way, you are not doing. You still haven't explained why I can't be town in your opinion. Do you disagree with my summary in 103? Do you not see why my actions could be taken by town? Who else, besides me, do you have any sort of read on?

[GuiltyLion]

and what's even worse is you didn't even explicitly claim VT, you just "slipped" it (or scumslipped) and then backtracked by trying to imply that it was actually an intentional play. Which again, doesn't make sense, because you had to ask me to point out what was wrong with your initial post. Now you're trying to set it up so you can claim to be either a VT or a PR.

Either talk to me and explain why I can't be town for calling you out on your anti-town play, and simultaneously start scumhunting elsewhere, or else you can get lynched, because you're doing absolutely nothing that is useful to anyone and there's a significant chance you're just bullshitting scum.

[GuiltyLion]

like, let's just pretend for the sake of argument that karnos is ACTUALLY a town PR intentionally spreading WIFOM to trick those silly scums into keeping him alive

would a PR be comfortable letting himself be run up to L-1 and then being forced to claim at that point? Would a PR just be sitting around obtusely referring to this master plan but not actually trying to game-solve and just be town to show to his voters that he's town?

Do his actions make more sense from a town!PR perspective or a scum perspective, where he'd be trying to soft a PR but not actually claim it to dissolve the wagon on him, yet keep his play as flexible as possible?

If karnos were a VT then he already slipped at this point, and what he should do is make the most of it and relentlessly hunt scum and be aggressive and be so obnoxiously obvtown that scum are forced to kill him anyway, because he's unlynchable. But karnos isn't doing that either, instead he wants to pretend he's got some genius next level "plan" in hopes that we get bored with him and look elsewhere.

[GuiltyLion]

"everyone should have my playstyle and anyone who doesn't is scum"

who's your second best scumread GL tythx

Don't be reductionist. karnos isn't scumhunting. karnos is accusing me of being scum for weak reasoning and is refusing to explain. His play isn't doing anything to help find scum.

Second best scumread is culted

[GuiltyLion]

Whats your read on RB then? His play so far can be summarized in pointing fingers at me. How is that different from Karnos? Also i can't see Culted as anything but a jokester, and even though my RVS vote is still there i have a null read on him. What did you see in his posts that looks scummy?

I would not summarize rb's play as simply "pointing fingers at you". rb has also called karnos town, argued with RK over chainsawing for Charloux, and soft-defended myself as town too. He's interacting with others, presenting reads, advancing the game.

Meanwhile, karnos' opinions on anything/anyone are...?

with respect to culted, I thought his case on RK was weak and made to misrep RK rather than coming from genuine intentions and thought process.

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like everyone is like "wait oh shit karnos could be a PR slipping VT for WIFOM, he's softing it, let's townread him"

well, I've been playing for a year and a half and I have seen a lot of scums soft PRs and get away with it. I just recently lost a game partially because I thought someone was the doc when they weren't. I'm not letting that happen in this game, if karnos is town he needs to stop trying to play bullshit WIFOM plans and needs to play openly and straighforwardly

[GuiltyLion]

if karnos is town he needs to stop trying to play bullshit WIFOM plans and needs to play openly and straighforwardly

So are you asking me to claim on day 1 when I'm not even at L-1?

no, I am asking you to answer questions about why you said "only scum" would push you on talking about what you'd do against a potential guilty. Like it's hilarious that you said:

Without going into detail, one big difference between town and scum is such: a town player will look at a reason why an action might be taken by town, while scum players just need to look for a reason why an action might be taken by scum.

and yet you continue to call me scum without ever explaining why. I'm obvious town and your only push this game is bad.

[GuiltyLion]

again

jumping on as only scum would

why do you believe this. Give me a neutral, objective answer.

If you refuse to answer my question in 87, I will treat it as a literal scumclaim

[GuiltyLion]

I kinda think Charloux is town tbh, like can someone who is scumreading the "fake" frustration break down for me why it's fake and not genuine?

karnos is still scum. It's frustrating that he's gonna just post one-liners like 179, ignore everything else going on, and you all are letting him off the hook for it.

culted's kinda making me paranoid too, like the stuff he's been saying as of my last post is pro-town and makes complete sense but it's really on the pulse about what's going on, like he's being extremely diligent to pay attention to what people are saying and he's really perceptive of the general threads of conversation. I want to push on this:

Naked votes aren't always scummy. Unless you're one of those robots who scumreads things irregardless of context then more power to ya.

That's also a terrible excuse to not vote a scumread.

VOTE: Charloux

Why exactly do you think Charloux is scum? Is it something more than "not voting a scumread"?

[GuiltyLion]

Why are you obvious town?

serious question: are you saying that I am not? I've been obvtown since my first post of the game tbh

[GuiltyLion]

Why are you obvious town?

serious question: are you saying that I am not? I've been obvtown since my first post of the game tbh

Explain why you are "obvtown". This is a serious question as you are at the moment marginally the scummiest here. No one can be obvTown in this game barring a Cop or Gunsmith clear.

no, it's on you to explain why I'm scummy. My alignment speaks for itself

[GuiltyLion]

like are you both seriously asking me to just explain why I'm town? What use is that to either of you? How is that a helpful question?

[GuiltyLion]

omg the semantics

I am saying I will attempt to figure out what everyone else's alignments are, not justify my own. There is nothing I can just say as a magic answer to "why are you town" that scum!me couldn't also say. You're asking a stupid question. The real point of the matter is that if you can't see that I'm town here then either your game needs to improve or you have ulterior motives.

[GuiltyLion]

I kinda think Charloux is town tbh, like can someone who is scumreading the "fake" frustration break down for me why it's fake and not genuine?

karnos is still scum. It's frustrating that he's gonna just post one-liners like 179, ignore everything else going on, and you all are letting him off the hook for it.

Yeah, this is still scum.

My proposal: we lynch guilty lion. If he is town, he should be okay with being lynched because his flip will validate his argument and theoretically town could lynch me in retaliation. Except that won't happen because he is going to flip red.

Except you still haven't ever given a single reason as to why I'm scum. You have absolutely ZERO reason to be this confident in my alignment, and you completely ignore every single time I or anyone else asks you to explain. You get no say in the lynch because you haven't answered any questions asked of you.

Also,
karnos: Guilty is scum!
Guilty: no, I'm obvtown
Everyone: huh why are you obvtown?!?

The Question You Should Be Asking is: why am I scum, according to karnos?

Like seriously guys, learn to play. The game is about explaining why people are scum, not why they are town. It doesn't matter why I think I'm obvtown, it matters why karnos can't give an actual reason as to why I'm scum. Also rb like you literally just saw my scumgane in GoT, I'm not really sure why you can't see the differences here.

Also, this post in general is not at all town motivated. I will flip green. If karnos is town he is literally chaining mislynches. Only scum has incentive to be so bullheaded in their push that they wager their own lynch on it. If karnos were town I would expect him to be a little more uncertain. like I keep saying, I still don't understand why he thinks I'm scum, and he constantly refuses to answer.

[GuiltyLion]

To further explain why you are asking the wrong questions:

Let's say I'm lynched today (lol) and I flip green. What do any of my posts about my alignment matter at that point? What information do you get from reading me explain how I'm obvtown after the fact, when you know I'm green?

You know what would be way, way more useful? karnos (or BTD6) posting a detailed case on everything I've done and why it can only come from scum and not town. Because then afterwards he has to explain why his reasons were wrong and defend that his intentions were genuine. His posts become far richer after my flip, whereas mine defending myself become thread clutter (except for all the salient and meaningful points that I make about other players, ofc )

[GuiltyLion]

@Karnos: Why didn't you propose the other way around?

RK is obvscum though, still didn't explain why i am scum but is just adding comments that fit her read on me. Me being pissed off isn't fake, you just used those wordings instead of "Scum can get frustrated as well, and i think this is it" so it would look more appealing for the others who read it.

Charloux, RK actually did make a real point though that she doesn't believe town!Charloux would self-vote and get mad that quickly. She said since you're not a new player, you flying off the handle doesn't fit what she would expect to be town play. Do you think that should count as a valid explanation?

[GuiltyLion]

You want me to townread you for seeing your 'scumgame' recently - well karnos is playing his exact towngame from 624 as well and you conveniently ignore that.

karnos was far more engaged in 624 than he is here, IMO. He was snarky and abrasive in both games, but in 624 he actually provided substance as well.

Like I said earlier, not moving my vote unless karnos actually starts being town.

[GuiltyLion]

also I don't think I'm joining a Charloux wagon today in general, if you wanna push that one through I'm probably not gonna be on it. I've seen Charloux ask some good questions and I think the frustration was real.

[GuiltyLion]

rb you should actually go back to 624 and re-ISO karnos before you try to tell me this is his "exact towngame".

[GuiltyLion]

That's a pretty boring angle to push. You can read the post you just quoted.

Why are you being snarky here instead of clarifying? I read the post I quoted, it still doesn't make sense to me. Do you have more behind your Charloux scumread beyond "he's not voting his scumreads"? Or is that it?

Also, can you show me some examples of RK sorting the game?

Sure - 36, 41, 74, 145 and 171 taken together, 208.

If you think RK is scummy and my townread is wrong, why not vote her and sell me on it? You suggested having doubts about scum!Charloux in 160, well I think Charloux is a Bad Wagon and your vote on it needs more justification, especially if you're gonna simultaneously be asking me about why I'm townreading another player.

[GuiltyLion]

How are you exactly reading BTD's push on you here? Hard to tell.

honestly BTD just makes me exhausted when I read his posts, dude's a brick wall and it seems like he's trying his damnedest to ignore the point of what I say and reframe the argument into something stupid. I'm not sure if he's scum or if he's just doing it unintentionally

[GuiltyLion]

Charloux's frustration seems forced to me. I can't understand how someone would get this upset over a day 1 L-2, to the point of self voting. It's also suspicious that he hasn't voted for anyone he finds scummy, as others have pointed out.

I don't buy this and neither should you. You can't understand him being upset, why not ask him about it? Why is it suspicious that he hasn't voted, why is that something that scum is more likely to do than town? Especially since other people have been asking him about it and voting him for it already.

[GuiltyLion]

Also, your next posts are just as bad. "Everything I've done and why it can only come from scum and not town". This is serious misrep. I did not hold you as obvscum or even a moderate to strong scumread. In fact, I held you as nullscum. In that case, why would I be convinced that everything you did can only be from scum and not Town?

I was mostly referring to karnos instead of you in that section. See these quotes from karnos:

and you conceded it was a "play error".

Nope. I said it *might* have been a play error.

But luckily you revealed your alignment by jumping on as only scum would

, so it's a fair trade.

My proposal: we lynch guilty lion. If he is town, he should be okay with being lynched because his flip will validate his argument and theoretically town could lynch me in retaliation.

Except that won't happen because he is going to flip red

.

I do want to know, BTD6 - why aren't you holding these claims up to the same level of scrutiny as you took on my "obvtown" remark? karnos is calling me scum and depending on his alignment he will naturally have different thought patterns as to why he is making that claim. My point is that his statements are more worth diving into, especially given that you're voting me already.

[GuiltyLion]

I do agree with karnos that if karnos is town, Lemons would look a lot worse as of his latest few posts.

Currently I'm sitting here

townblock: {RK, rb}
probably town: {Charloux}

needs to actually do shit: {AA9, BTD6}
scummy-but-there's-at-least-one-town-in-here: {karnos, Lemons, culted}

[GuiltyLion]

I hate to answer for someone else, but your question is so illogical it demands a response.

My claim that you are scum actually puts me at risk. If I am wrong, and you come up as town somehow, I'll probably get lynched in return. i'm willing to take that risk, obviously, but it's a risk I am taking.

OTOH you are not really taking any risk at all by claiming you are obvtown, as the only way to prove you wrong would be to flip you or investigate you, in which case you are dead anyway. You aren't *really* risking anything by making the claim, because disproving the claim costs you your life in the game anyway.

nothing that you said runs against the point of the question. In fact, it only supports me, if anything. "I'm obvtown" is a risk-less statement, you're right. So why is BTD6 making a huge deal out of it? Whether I'm town or scum, it doesn't matter, I can say some shit or I can ignore his question, talking about it is absolutely useless.

Meanwhile, if you're serious, you ARE taking a huge risk by gambling your own life on my alignment. Don't you think BTD6 should be curious about that? Don't you think it'd be valuable for BTD6 to get a sense of your alignment and determine on his own whether your intentions are genuine or not? What you are doing is far, FAR, more impactful - and therefore scrutiny-worthy - than my throwaway "obvtown" remark, which he's dragged out for several posts.

you should have followed your first instinct and not answered

[GuiltyLion]

on RK - I've already answered several questions about my townread on RK. See here:

36 and 40 are pro-town points and inquiries, RK is calling out scummy behavior from karnos.

here:

Guilty u should answer 58 i wanna know why im town

a) I don't think 40 was proved to be inaccurate, the setup spec point doesn't matter nearly as much as your point about karnos defending himself against an accusation that hasn't happened. And everything else in 58 is exactly my problem with what karnos did. I'm on the same wavelength as you and it looks to me like you're trying to sort people. That's enough for a D1 early TR

and here:

Also, can you show me some examples of RK sorting the game?

Sure - 36, 41, 74, 145 and 171 taken together, 208.

It's pretty clear to me that RK is trying to get a grip on others alignments, rather than faking it. If you disagree and you don't think RK is town, then make the case that she's scum. Discrediting another player's townread is more pro-scum than it is pro-town.

[GuiltyLion]

BTD6

my point was that talking about whether or not I'm obvtown is stupid. I have no interest in doing it, and I've been over this repeatedly.

people's reads on others are what matter. not self-reads or defense of themselves

[GuiltyLion]

Lemons why did you choose to vote AA9 instead of Charloux? Charloux is being wagoned and you said his lynch would be "alright", so I find it odd that you went in a different direction as we approach the end of the day.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: ArcAngel

would currently prefer this to Charloux

[GuiltyLion]

Lemons still feels kinda stiff but I can't really find any problem with the stuff he's been saying, maybe just a playstyle issue more than anything AI

[GuiltyLion]

I would say it's not a dumpster fire! But there are quite a few slots who aren't really playing

[GuiltyLion]

I'd like to see Charloux participate more now that a counterwagon is forming

Merry Christmas scummers

[GuiltyLion]

ArcAngel is actively scummy with her last post, she's trying to bully us off the wagon rather than find scum.

karnos if you really are a PR then go ahead and investigate me bub. If you're town then our 1v1 would be best resolved without a flip.

[GuiltyLion]

The problem with lynching ArcAngel is that her flip won't tell anything about the others. Nobody pushed her nor did she push anybody. She didn't even write a name in her posts.

I mean ArcAngel is at this point purposefully trying to put as little content into the game as possible, which is far more scummy than townie and makes her a good lynch. We can't exactly keep her around if she's playing like this, and I think everyone who is actively contributing (the "informative" flips) is town anyway.

[GuiltyLion]

hey, great job town! culted/Charloux good job making the right call in LYLO - I'm also gonna take credit for this win for defending Charloux and keeping him alive on D1

this was an enjoyable game, thanks for modding myko! And thanks to everyone for being fun to play with