Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[BlackVoid]

if you don't think that post is a pretty good point then you probably don't belong on that council yourself

No it isn't. The fact that I explained why and MariaR just ignored that and continued harping on it like it was a silver bullet showed me she just wanted something she could sell, and wasn't interested in trying to read me.

[BlackVoid]

I didn't find your explanation at all convincing and I certainly don't get how you thought it was going to change Maria's mind.

What is there to not find convincing?

MariaR claimed that I was treating Cloud and Sotty7 differently. I pointed out that I wasn't. I did look at other options besides Sotty7 D2 and finally came back to her as the best lynch. I unvoted Cloud to look at other options today and kept him on the backburner to weigh alongside everything else.

If MariaR was town, I expected her to realize that she was comparing what I did at the end of one day to the beginning of another.

What I think actually happened is that a couple of people were receptive to that argument so she is hammering it home because she thinks it resonates.

[BlackVoid]

@GM, how did you forget about your Rask scumread from yesterday? The one you suddenly voted for when it looked like he could be lynched and now you are back to "Rask is conf-biasing."

You voted a lot of people that are flipped town or that I think are town or that I know to be town (Victor, IAI, Hoopla, Creature, me), but despite having Sotty7 as a supposed scumread, your vote was never seen there. Why? D1, you said you'd join the Sotty7 wagon. Why didn't that ever happen?

[BlackVoid]

Is the hopelessness of the situation making you turn to wifom?

No, I'm starting to wonder if you and Victor were right and GM's been screwing with me for a very long time.

[BlackVoid]

I am not claiming ever even with intent until its 2 days before the deadline. Hammering me here should be considered a full scumclaim and this wont change, i wont claim because theres a very fine reason that i dont want to, its better for town if i dont

You won't last until two days before the deadline if I can help it. And no, hammering you will not be considered a scumclaim. Claim in your next post please.

[BlackVoid]

Because Rask obvTowned, as I pointed out here:

How did Rask obvtown? You said nothing about it in the post you quoted.

Not liking a wagon just seems like an excuse to not vote Sotty7. You haven't liked any wagon that had cropped up.

[BlackVoid]

By the way, if Cloud doesn't claim in his next post, anyone that hammers him will be considered

confirmed town

in my book tomorrow and I won't entertain their lynch.

[BlackVoid]

Well, I'm convinced Creature is town but I'm not entirely convinced Rask is town. If you want to lynch one of them, you'll have better luck convincing me to lynch Rask.

[BlackVoid]

Alright then, hammer away for infinite towncred tomorrow.

[BlackVoid]

Look, here's the deal. I'm not even very confident that you are scum. If you are town, I just want you to claim so I can assess it and move on to actual scum.

What you are doing is incredibly anti-town. My vote isn't going away until you claim. Unvoting you at this point would be very, very poor play. This is the ideal scenario you are envisioning:

You get run up to L-1 and multiple people ask for a claim.

Your response: Nope, not claiming.

Town's response: Oh okay, that's fine then. We're good.

That's not how it works on any forum I've played at. I haven't played on Epic Mafia so I can't speak for how it's done there. Asking you for a claim is not scumtelling.

One thing you need to realize is that we have a limited number of mislynches (three) before we lose. I'm asking you to please not force us to waste one on you. If you are a PR, you should be one of the clears. One of the people we POE out so our lynches are more accurate. Getting lynched is the worst outcome. Claiming is not the end of the world. You've been happy to declare intent on anyone that's at L-1. There is no way you are getting away without claiming. Please claim ASAP.

Like i said, not claiming yet, if clear wants a hardclaim he has to ask me directly

He has:

anyway, I would also be down for getting cloud to claim.

VOTE: cloud

[BlackVoid]

I'm at the point where I believe GM is probably scum and trolling me.

[BlackVoid]

@GM, before you go, please claim. If Cloud's claim somehow checks out, I'm going to push for yours next. I'm having second thoughts about MariaR being scum. If we have to wait until Saturday, it's going to be a huge delay.

[BlackVoid]

Arona specified that he wanted your claim. He said exactly why he was voting you so quit delaying please.

Pushing you is not a scumtell. Stop kidding yourself.

[BlackVoid]

No, here's a better deal. You fullclaim. If I buy it, then I'll claim. If I'm so scummy to you, you must love to lock me into a claim, right?

[BlackVoid]

Deal is only valid for your very next post. If you delay, I'll eventually convince someone to hammer you and you are not getting my claim. One post.

[BlackVoid]

There's the possibility that he's town, yeah. But if we run someone up to L-1 and they refuse to claim, I'm not going to just let that slide.

I didn't actually want a hammer. I was hoping that upping the pressure would get him to reveal his claim.

[BlackVoid]

I don't care.

[BlackVoid]

I'm town. I don't.

[BlackVoid]

By the way, I think refusing to claim at L-1 with intent is anti-town. I don't think continuing to demand that claim is anti-town.

In fact, I'd argue that you showing up and suggesting that he could be town, implicitly trying to let him off is anti-town. Because by doing that, you are undermining the mechanics through which we get claims. You are essentially creating an environment where the next person we pressure can get out of a lynch by refusing to claim.

[BlackVoid]

@Hoopla, please hammer him.

[BlackVoid]

Or Creature can do it if you are squemish.

[BlackVoid]

He's scum and deliberately wasting time so that there's a last minute scramble.

[BlackVoid]

No it isn't.

[BlackVoid]

You've had way too many chances. There's no way I'm ever entertaining a lynch outside of you unless you claim.

[BlackVoid]

I don't care what you would have done as scum. Claim now and I'll consider your scumreads. Rask and Hoopla were people that I was looking into as well before you started this distraction. If you are town, either you can claim and we can focus on actual scum or you can waste a day getting lynched and then we focus on scum tomorrow. Your choice.

[BlackVoid]

That already happened. Arona specifically said that he wanted the claim.

[BlackVoid]

No she isn't. Letting you off isn't towny. Telling you to claim isn't scummy. You fall into the trope of people doing dumb things hoping to catch scum and then saying that people who voted them are scum.

[BlackVoid]

By the way, I think refusing to claim at L-1 with intent is anti-town. I don't think continuing to demand that claim is anti-town.

In fact, I'd argue that you showing up and suggesting that he could be town, implicitly trying to let him off is anti-town. Because by doing that, you are undermining the mechanics through which we get claims. You are essentially creating an environment where the next person we pressure can get out of a lynch by refusing to claim.

I mean, it's annoying that he hasn't fully claimed yet, and I still want him to full claim, but getting more annoyed and doing an even more antitown thing in hammering him (or requesting hammers) doesn't achieve anything.

The irony of the situation is him doing this has revealed (in my eyes) that he's actually prob-town, and thus despite the act of doing an antitown thing, he has probably provided a net positive to the town. I don't like the way it has come about, and don't want him to keep stalling, but it has happened. You're letting your ire of the situation overlook the silver lining here and seeing the town tell for what it is.

If you want him to full-claim, not following up on that by not hammering isn't going to get you one. You should be hammering right about now.

[BlackVoid]

Can someone give intent again and actually follow-through with it?

[BlackVoid]

You are being extremely anti-town.

[BlackVoid]

Absolutely not. You can't just let him off for refusing to claim.

[BlackVoid]

If you want to look anywhere else, state intent to hammer and actually get his claim.

[BlackVoid]

Hammer him and I'll tell you.

[BlackVoid]

I don't see a hammer...

[BlackVoid]

My read is that either he's scum and stalling, or he's town and you are trying to frustrate me by not getting his claim in an expedient fashion so that I keep pushing him harder and harder until I finally get a town lynched after putting in way too much effort.

If you are town here, you'd be trying to make the process simpler, not throw additional wrenches into the mix.

[BlackVoid]

You are being very anti-town right now. He

literally

said that if there was actual intent, he would claim. All you had to do was confirm that you had actual intent and we would have moved on but then you decided to "change your mind" and actually consider letting him get off without claiming at all.

Now you are creating even more of a distraction from the main issue by claiming I'm being anti-town as well.

[BlackVoid]

I'll pick it apart if you hammer him. Otherwise no.

[BlackVoid]

He is a lynch candidate. Nothing has changed. If he doesn't claim, there is nobody else that I'll consider for a lynch.

[BlackVoid]

He is a lynch candidate. Nothing has changed. If he doesn't claim, there is nobody else that I'll consider for a lynch.

Will you claim if i claim ? and if so, its almost like massclaiming at this point

Only if you claim in your next post.

[BlackVoid]

He's just trolling at this point. Creature, when you get here, please hammer him.

[BlackVoid]

Actually I do see the light.

VOTE: Hoopla

[BlackVoid]

Hoopla has twice undermined the pro-town environment of this game. First she started encouraging this apples/oranges dichotomy. For a functioning town, you need people working together, not divided into their own camps because it makes it harder to get a lynch. Second, she bailed on stating intent to hammer after Cloud said he would claim if she did.

We shouldn't be having a conversation with people at L-1 explaining to them the benefits and pitfalls of claiming. By not making the process pretty much automatic, we created several pages of clutter and nonsense back and forth.

[BlackVoid]

The original purpose of Cloud claiming was because he was suspicious enough to lynch. I (and I hope others see it too) now realise he's highly likely town, so there's no point continuing the claiming process if there's no intention to lynch there any more.

You're just frustrated (or ignoring) that the way this information came to light was through Cloud's antitown behaviour.

You are right that I'm frustrated. I think with his claim, I'll be able to get a much better picture of the gamestate. If his claim is believable, I can continue looking elsewhere without worry about connections to him. I can rest easy knowing that we're not letting a really cheeky scumbag slip away right in front of our noses by being blatantly pro-scum.

There's also the fact that he revels in trolling. I've genuinely invested myself into the game and put in my time to try to figure out the puzzle. He knows that him being purposefully obstructionist is just frustrating me. He's happy about that.

Even if you think he's more likely town, it would be much nicer if you could just make him claim to get it over with so I can refocus. Just help me out here. You claimed to be townreading me heavily after I derailed your lynch and went for Sotty7. Arona is clear. Jaack is clear and Jaack has been pretty tunneled in on Cloud.

[BlackVoid]

It's possible that he's town, yeah. But I also don't want to leave this half-done or just cave because he's trolling and refusing to claim. I'm just confused about why you are acting in a way that would cause more tension and frustration on both sides rather than just state intent again, get his claim, and move on.

Him concealing his role has very limited value and I don't think that value is higher than what we would get if we all have a concrete claim that we can analyze and also a sense a closure so we feel like we actually got something so we can reset and think about it.

[BlackVoid]

I guess I just dug my heels in because he's being overtly antagonistic about not claiming and the deeper you go down that hole of stubbornness, the harder it is to back out. But I still want to see this through and finish what we started.

[BlackVoid]

You are right. He probably wouldn't have claimed even if you stated intent.

I'm coming around to thinking he might be town, yeah. But it's not a dichotomy. There's a chance he's scum and it could go either way. I'll think it over when I'm not pissed off at his refusal to claim.

[BlackVoid]

He'll claim if I have the hammer though.

[BlackVoid]

@Hoopla, Creature - here's where you CAN do something. Vote Cloud and leave me with the hammer. The claim will come, trust me.

[BlackVoid]

I'll give him a post to claim.

[BlackVoid]

You've been reading me as town since the beginning. Just trust me here. This'll work.

[BlackVoid]

If he's scum, I don't want him to get away by blatantly anti-town and rubbing it in our noses. If he's town, we'll still have the claim to analyze and I really don't think we should back down just because someone trolls us.

[BlackVoid]

C'mon Creature, the guy is trying to make a mockery of forum mafia. Let's not indulge him.

[BlackVoid]

He has also stated that he's going to purposefully delay his claim. I think claiming now will be to our benefit as we have time to think on it without rushing it.

[BlackVoid]

Thanks!

@Cloud, I have intent to hammer. Claim in your next post please.

[BlackVoid]

He knows I'll hammer if and only if he doesn't claim. I hope so too.

[BlackVoid]

Why didn't you protect Victor N1 when he claimed Mason?

[BlackVoid]

Okay. Protect Arona tonight. Don't try to be cute and wifom scum by waiving or protecting someone else because you think you can outmaneuver them. If Arona isn't still alive tomorrow, I'm permanently leaving my vote on you.

[BlackVoid]

I suppose if he's fake-claiming, we'll find out when we setup-spec after all the claims are out. By the way, if anyone has a PR, they should be soft cc'ing Cloudkicker right now.

VOTE: goodmorning

I don't feel from the core of my bones that she's scum but she's an option I want to explore. Mostly comes down to too many bad votes and no vote on Sotty7. Still have lingering feelings that town are playing chaotically and Hoopla and Rask are being the voices of reason scum but I'm going to go to Occam's razor for now and assume GM's play is indicative of scum and Rask and Hoopla being reasonable is because they're town. I'll see how this pans out and decide later.

There's one other reason that I'll keep to myself, this is just a reminder for me to bring it up later in case I forget.

@Cloud, first off, it's not going to be lylo if we mislynch today. Secondly, I'm going to consider all the possibilities including that of a roleblock before I make any decisions. Don't worry, I'm not one to risk autoloss.

[BlackVoid]

I won't be here most of the day but I feel like doing a thanksgiving matrix to give thanks to this game of mafia. I'm excluding Arona and Cloud for claims. Upon reflection, I buy Cloud's claim and am fairly sure he's town. Excluding Jaack as well. Here are the potential scumteams. I highly doubt anyone outside this Matrix is scum so I think this is fairly comprehensive.

Player	Rask	MariaR	GM	Creature	Hoopla
Rask	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
MariaR	Probable	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
GM	Eliminate	Probable	N/A	N/A	N/A
Creature	Probable	Probable	Eliminate	N/A	N/A
Hoops	Probable	Unlikely	Probable	Eliminate	N/A

Rask could be scum with MariaR, Creature, or Hoopla.
MariaR could be scum with Rask, Creature, or GM.
GM could be scum with MariaR or Hoopla.
Creature could be scum with Rask or MariaR.
Hoopla could be scum with Rask or GM. Perhaps MariaR but unlikely.

So, if I'm to believe Hoopla, she says it's Rask and Creature which I guess isn't impossible.

Rask's POV is the most interesting one. He went from GM + one of Hoopla/MariaR to Hoopla + one of GM/MariaR. Problem is, if we go back to our earlier assessment, Hoopla and MariaR don't make sense as a team either. So, it seems Hoopla/GM is the only plausible team if you are town and right. There is the possibility that you are town and wrong (about GM). That would put MariaR/Creature as the only real scumteam possibility. Since you bring up pre-flip interactions almost as much as I do, let me know your thoughts on MariaR/Creature being a possibility.

Then there's always the Rask/Hoopla possibility where they distance, link each other to other townies on the list and push those townies.

Outside of that, I have a hard time understanding GM's and MafiaR's POV because they both seem to think

I'm

partnered with Creature.

Finally, I think Creature hasn't been very involved lately and I want to see his POV of the situation.

I'm also interested in Jaack's and Arona's and maybe Cloud's thoughts on the matter. I'm not sure Creature is the way to go partly because all the people in my POE pool seem to be drawn to him. I'd rather build a wagon that me, Jaack, and Arona can get behind.

[BlackVoid]

Hey GM:

it's a great chance to talk to someone you think is scummy in real time.

I have some time now so if you are town here, feel free.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, so try as I might I'm just not seeing GM as scum. The wagon has given me the reactions I needed so that's good. Apart from the stuff I mentioned about her back and forth with Sotty7 on D1, there's also the really early interactions where she says something is off with BBT and Sotty7 immediately agrees with her and pushes him. I hate that she cast around for counterwagons at the last minute during Sotty7's lynch but I just don't get the feeling that she already knew Sotty7's alignment.

I'm leaning more towards Rask. Here's my problem with Rask: reading him in ISO, there's never a point where I feel that him and Sotty7 are definitely not partners. He suspects Sotty7 early, cuts through her BBT scumread and votes her. Then he colors a wagon with Sotty7 as his strongest scumread but leaves open room for her being partnered with GreyICE. Then quickly moves over to Victor even though Victor was apparently a townread (a "fringe townread" but a townread nevertheless). The funny thing is, he does everything he can to work with GreyICE to push a counterwagon despite throwing around Sotty7/GreyICE team possibilities. I think he wanted towncred for being against the GreyICE wagon while at the same time leaving him lynchable if Sotty7 flipped. I'll add that Hoopla is right that him saying she wasn't doing anything to "pressure" Sotty7 may indicate a partner tell.

Then D2, he spends most of his time pushing GM. Some of his points are accurate - GM did in fact do nothing when GreyICE was getting lynched and she posts in a way that can be difficult to parse and understand at times. But there's no smoking gun, and no passion in this push. He is quick to switch over to Sotty7 when the counterwagon picks up. If he was so sure GM was scum, I think he'd be resisting the Sotty7 counterwagon but it feels almost like he knows she's scum and is being very, very careful not to look bad from a Sotty7 flip. There was one small place where he said he assumed Sotty7 was a mason that I thought looked like a not-partner tell but I don't think it's beyond him to fake. Hopping onto Sotty7 late D2 with "oh, yeah GM could be a partner" just mirrors his D1 where he pushes Sotty7 as a potential BBT/GreyICE partner.

The final straw for me that sealed it was that a lot of his points are regurgitated from others. For example, Victor was the one who brought up the fact that he was doing more than BBT so GM shouldn't suspect him. He also complained about GM not reading his posts. Rask brings up both these points in his GM push. This is more of a general trend in Rask's posting. There were times when I really liked his posting but many points he brings up are unoriginal and when I read the thread, I realize someone else had made that argument before (one example I'll give is that he came up with a paranoid theory that BBT and Sotty7 were together

after

I suggested that they could be scum vs scum counterwagons). I've tried to see his POV but I just can't get behind his reads. GM does all the wrong things like voting Rask when scum was about to be lynched but she just

doesn't fit

as a Sotty7 partner in the same way Rask does.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

[BlackVoid]

I think it's more likely you're a Sotty7 partner than GM (or anyone else really). GM/Sotty7 interactions don't look like they are both scum. She does a lot of things that don't look good. She commits to joining the Sotty7 wagon but never comes around to it. She pushes BBT along with Sotty7 in tandem. She calls Sotty7 town all of a sudden just because the "wagon is bad." None of that makes sense from someone who knew that Sotty7 was scum.

You on the other hand - you looked like you played with the knowledge that Sotty7 was going to flip. You never do anything that might be perceived as bad in case she's scum. You don't stick with your GM vote when Sotty7 was being wagoned even though you seemed so, so sure GM was scum. You stay on the Hoopla wagon until I called her posts sincere and then you switch to Cloud. When it finally seemed as though Sotty7 was the one who would eat rope D2, you move gracefully onto her wagon. Out of my five options, you fit in best. GM doesn't. Creature, MariaR, and Hoopla are toss-ups.

[BlackVoid]

an actual bad association for me is one that's unnaturally clean in one direction and kind of artificial-looking.

Right. This is the basis for my suspicion of you. GM's Sotty7 interactions are, let's say "dirty" for lack of a better word. But they are natural. Yours are clean and artificial-looking.

You never truly consider the possibility of Sotty7 being town. There are others who haven't, like TwoFace and Jaack but their interactions are completely different. Hyper-aggressive, tunnely town that have locked in on scum. Your play had the certainty of Sotty7 flipping scum but your actions mesh more with someone who had a lean scum read there but wasn't really sure. You didn't push hard enough but you also never felt uncertain on Sotty7.

[BlackVoid]

I think that BV points on rask might have merit but at the same time rask looks rather town to me and has for most of the game.

The biggest hangup for me was when his reads stopped making sense and it looked like he was trying to force-fit them. He insists it has to be two of GM, Hoopla, and MariaR but none of them make sense. GM's interactions with Sotty7 look bad but really aren't bad which I think Rask is ignoring. He's basically taking some of the annoying things GM is doing and calling them scummy. Creature hasn't been posting much lately but he's pretty steadfast in a townread there despite the other pairings not really fitting. I think he decided to townread Creature either to defend a partner or buddy a townie and is sticking with that.

[BlackVoid]

@Jaack, I still think you should ask yourself, if not Rask then who? I have a hard time seeing a scumteam outside of Rask. The only one I can see is Creature and MariaR but it's a bit iffy. There's also the IAI nightkill. IAI mildly suspected Rask saying that he thought Rask was just telling him what he wanted to hear which is exactly how I felt about Rask at times. If no one sticks out as obviously scummy, I think it points to one of the better players being scum and Rask and Sotty7 fit as a team extremely well. One other thing - when Sotty7 started D2 by voting Rask, my initial thought was "that's probably a bus vote." I think she anticipated pressure D2 based on the TwoFace kill and wanted to start by distancing.

[BlackVoid]

How boring do you think BlackVoid has been this game?

Too much. I think he should change his username to BoringVoid.

[BlackVoid]

Impatient with what?

[BlackVoid]

I can't even form {aronagrundy, BlackVoid, CloudKicker, Jaack} townblock again.

What do you think of joining me on Rask?

[BlackVoid]

No, I mean joining me on the Rask wagon.

[BlackVoid]

I'll lynch MariaR with you tomorrow if he winds up flipping town.

[BlackVoid]

You currently have the scum team as Rask/Maria, right?

Here's the current Matrix I'm working with. Since the last one, I crossed out a couple. MariaR are Rask don't seem likely - too much genuine interaction all the way from the beginning of the game until now. Lots of wagon jumping together, verbal sparring with each other. It doesn't look fake to me at all.

Hoopla and GM don't seem likely for GM's vote and hop off of Hoopla wagon on D2. Voting your partner, letting a wagon form and going "whoops, I'm indifferent to the wagon, let me unvote and fiddle around doing nothing" is not scumpartner interaction.

Player	Rask	MariaR	GM	Creature	Hoopla
Rask	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
MariaR	Unlikely	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
GM	Eliminate	Probable	N/A	N/A	N/A
Creature	Probable	Probable	Eliminate	N/A	N/A
Hoops	Probable	Unlikely	Unlikely	Eliminate	N/A

Four probable teams. I don't think it's any of the ones I eliminated. It could be one of the teams I found unlikely but someone will need to put a convincing case to change my mind on why.

[BlackVoid]

What happened to your creature read? Did you seriously go from clearing him to doubting him entirely on an associative basis with me?

No, it's because he doesn't seem very engaged with the game. He has slowly become less active, offered less contributions, less strong reads, pushes and opinions. I see it as a scum trend in general. I'm not saying he's scum for sure but he's no longer a strong townread.

[BlackVoid]

If not Rask, I'm willing to compromise on MariaR - that's my second choice. I'm not as confident she'll flip scum as I am for Rask though.

[BlackVoid]

But seriously Jaack, Rask keeps saying that he was totally scumreading Sotty7 to the point of never considering that she was town. Yet, Rask was never the driving force behind the Sotty7 wagon any of the three times that she was wagoned. D1, it was TwoFace and you. D2, it was us both times. Rask was in the background and his vote always came when it looked like Sotty7 would be lynched. But it's never been Rask telling people that she should be lynched. He was quick to move to Victor D1 (MariaR also did this), spent most of his time on GM during the first D2 wagon, and voted Cloud before he voted Sotty7 on the final D2 wagon. Remember that Victor was an actual townread on Rask's when he voted him. Why so quick to abandon the Sotty7 wagon despite scumreading her, despite TwoFace continuing to push the wagon, despite his speculation that GreyICE was a Sotty7 partner? If he really believed that, he would have stuck with Sotty7 with the worst case being GreyICE would get lynched anyways. But he actively pushed Victor as a counterwagon.

[BlackVoid]

Honestly I don't get why people won't work on BV/Creature more a lot of people have me in these scumteams and none of yall are voting me it's like???
Hello

I guess I'll vote you to find common ground with Jaack since you really seem to want to get lynched. But I do want Jaack and others to see where I'm coming from with Rask.

[BlackVoid]

Well, you seem to be getting bad vibes from every push I make. If your only criteria for a good lynch is one that I'm not on, I don't think we're going to get anywhere.

[BlackVoid]

That's been true of most people though, not just you. A lot of people have been considering possible teams. You keep saying it's definitely Creature and me. But you should consider why Rask is hard-townreading me and Creature if we're the scumteam. Have we just pulled the wool over his eyes so effectively that he absolutely refuses to lynch any of the scum in the game?

[BlackVoid]

You should post it.

[BlackVoid]

MariaR committed to voting Hoopla so I guess I'm hoping GM votes Rask and puts him at L-1 too letting Arona decide. Either that or for Jaack to switch. I'll give it one last shot to try and summarize why I think Rask is scum.

A lot of the time, I clear people based off of interactions when they display knowledge that they have no idea who the scum are. For instance, incorrectly assuming that a scum is town or that a townie is scum. That's something I never see with Rask.

Take these two back-to-back posts for example:

I THINK I like sotty now

, although it really doesn't help that I saw her mentioned in the goat thread, and now that I check again its for scumplay no less.

PoE is actually starting to push BBT and IAI down at this point... GM still fishy but victor himself is one of my fringe townleans, and the whole exchange feels muddled. That said, probably not SonS.

Cloud was one of my better townreads but I don't know what the fuck he's doing now.

Don't feel like hoopla is pressuring sotty at all despite the vote.

In the first one, he stated a weakish townread on Sotty7. But then immediately he accuses Hoopla of not pressuring Sotty7. He doesn't outright say it but the implication is that he thinks Hoopla and Sotty7 are partners and that Hoopla is distancing from Sotty7 but not really pushing her. So, that post is made with an underlying assumption that Sotty7 is scum.

That's the core of my Rask suspicion summarized into a single paragraph. Throughout the game, he always works with the assumption that Sotty7 is scum. He never develops reads with the assumption that she's town even when he calls her town.

Also, voting a "fringe townread" Victor is really bad given the three posts below.

GreyICE (6)

-

Sotty7

,

Hoopla

,

MichelSableheart

,

BlackVoid

,

VictorDeAngelo

,

I Am Innocent

L-1,

Sotty7 (3)

-

Jaack

,

Raskolnikov

,

TwoFace

sotty/bbt theory still holds up though and especially against the why-no-cw logic

VOTE: Victor

GreyICE is a null read that could be partnered with his major scumread Sotty7 (which explains why no counterwagons), but he wants to go for a fringe townread anyways. Really feel like he's playing up to GreyICE there.

There's also this really weird interaction between Rask and Creature where Rask townreads Creature for reasons unknown and Creature just moves him out of the lynchpool and moves everyone else including me back in. Not to mention MichelSableheart voting the BBT counterwagon to Sotty7. If I have to take a guess, I'd probably go with Creature/Rask as our team. I'll try and see if there's anything at all that might contradict that view. Goodmorning, if you are town here and think Creature is scum, look at how the two of them subtly removed each other from their scumlists and vote Rask please.

[BlackVoid]

Meh, if you are town, I basically blew it this entire day phase. You certainly haven't been playing "scummy" or badly. On the contrary, I thought you were being far more reasonable than most. But nothing else makes sense and the teams you are proposing make much less sense than you being scum. I'm still agonizing over this although you can't tell from the way I make pushes and I have D1 open in a separate tab looking for anything that might contradict you being scum.

I don't have a strong townread on Hoopla and it's possible that when she saw herself and Sotty7 both being pressured, they decided a one-way bus of the person who made a PR claim was their best shot. But there's still the way Sotty7 buddied her on D1 and Hoopla never buddied her back that makes me think it was Sotty7-scum and Hoopla-town. I also think that Sotty7 enlisting MariaR's help in pushing Jaack and using her Jaack push as a reason to townread her is something scum do to town. That's more likely than two scum just deciding to push Jaack and townreading each other for making the same push. That leaves us with GM. I'm still looking for any indication that might point her way and coming up short.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, but this is based off of Sotty7 interactions and she flipped.

[BlackVoid]

GM doesn't. MariaR might be going for a "why would I defend my partner" gambit but she did push Jaack and Sotty7 was having a major clash with him D1. After that push, Sotty7 townreads MariaR and tells me how amazing her Jaack push was. That looks like scum who found town to support their push. Hoopla is iffy but like I said Sotty7 was buddying her. Rask is the one who does make plenty of sense as a partner.

[BlackVoid]

Whose D1 interactions?

[BlackVoid]

The only times Sotty7 really wasn't under pressure was in the first few pages and nothing there is really telling. Then finally when the Victor wagon cropped up in response to GreyICE, it became a town vs town counterwagons for the day. MariaR and Rask were the ones who caused this to happen by voting Victor when they did.

[BlackVoid]

Can we just lynch Creature then? I don't think Rask is happening today since we even if Arona votes him, he still needs one more vote and GM is townreading him. Sableheart voting BBT at the time he did to push it as a counterwagon does make sense as a Sotty7 buddy I think and nothing Creature hasn't struck me as amazingly town or anything like that. I don't feel confident Hoopla is scum but she has that consistent, logical style where I feel like the longer she's alive, I can get an accurate read on her.

[BlackVoid]

Rask's best partner is probably goodmorning

I've been thinking about this all day so it's funny that you bring it up now. Her townreading Rask back after his case on her is really weird and she put the onus on me to explain why Rask's case on her was scummy. But from my read of D1, her interaction with Sotty7 looked very natural, she almost committed to voting Sotty7 over BBT (why even do that when she was already scumreading BBT anyways?) I didn't find anything suspect in her progression there, Victor was her top scumread so it doesn't bother me that she never moved off of the Victor wagon especially when GreyICE replaced in and started hard-pushing it. Rask did act like a GM scumflip would vindicate him though.

[BlackVoid]

I'm bussing him like I bussed Sotty7. If you want him dead, you can help me with that.

[BlackVoid]

VOTE: Creature

[BlackVoid]

Don't hammer. Let GM come back and takes a stand on everything that happened. We can figure it out then.

[BlackVoid]

Hoopla, GM, and Sotty7 as the team makes far less sense than Rask, Creature/Michel, and Sotty7. Even if Hoopla is scum, I have a tough time getting to GM-scum. I could be way off track and Rask's passion and persistence has definitely eroded my Rask scumread a bit but he still makes more sense to me than the alternatives.

VOTE: Rask

@Cloud, Hoopla - let's get back here.

[BlackVoid]

I've been thinking this over and I've decided to claim. I'm not 100% sure on Rask so maybe I shouldn't be pushing that hard. I'm obviously not going to get lynched but what I really need right now is for MariaR and GM to post reads that aren't dependent on "BV is scum so whoever is pushing is town."

I

need to read

them

and this isn't making it easy for me. The next nightkills are pretty much set in stone and nearly everyone has claimed so I can't see any possible benefit in delaying. Maybe if I reach 3P, I can use that to conf-town myself but that's a long shot so whatever.

I'm a Mason. I, Victor/Arona, and IAI are part of a three-person masonry.

Arona will confirm when he gets back on. So, there you go. Everyone scumreading me make up new scumreads and they better be good.

[BlackVoid]

Cloud's role makes sense because it's weak enough that I can see three Masons and a 1-shot bodyguard. Sotty7's tracker role never made sense with 3 masons which is why all three of us pushed her lynch.

@Jaack, Creature, Rask, GM - if you are a PR, you need to claim so we can lynch Cloud. If not, I'm basically going to treat him as conf-town. Just three masons with no other PR seems too weak to me.

[BlackVoid]

Actually that was my initial guess before IAI flipped, huh.

I thought you had Sotty7 as a Mason.

[BlackVoid]

Can everyone just massclaim? Rask softed VT but I think just everyone outing their exact role should make things clear and unambiguous.

[BlackVoid]

I'd love it if someone unvotes Hoopla so I can wait for GM to react to everything that happened. Jaack?

[BlackVoid]

There's one other reason that I'll keep to myself, this is just a reminder for me to bring it up later in case I forget.

Part of the reason I was suspicious of GM here is that D2, she townread me (probably thought I was a Mason), but D3, after I pushed Sotty7 and IAI flipped, she all of a sudden scumread me. It almost feels like she thought I was mislynchable once she figured she was wrong on me being Mason.

Also, Sotty7 knew I was a Mason with Victor:

Read wise this is where I am at in order:

Town: Victor, BV,GM
Null to town: Maria, Hoopla
Null to scum: Jaack, Cloud
Scum: Rask, Creature, IAI

Jaack and cloud are a lot closer to scum than null. Maria is a lot closer to town than null. Hoopla is nicely in the middle of null and town.

As fair warning I will be gone all of the day tomorrow again. It's bad timing, but my job put me in a month training class at the last minute so I won't be able to real time respond until around 6ish CST tomorrow evening. I also have to try and sleep for real now.

So, I think scum were working under that assumption that I was a Mason, at least on D2. So, why the IAI kill?

When I asked why I wasn't dead yet at the beginning of today, I wasn't tooting my own horn about my towniness. It felt like I was the more obvious partner to Victor. I consistently townread him and had him as my top townread through D1. I as good as told GreyICE that I was coming around to him being town but if it's between Victor and him, I had to vote him. So, why IAI when I was the obvious Mason and Sotty7 knew it?

[BlackVoid]

I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out. I claimed partly to read her reaction.

I don't think it's a horrible idea to lynch Rask and let him pick the next lynch by the way.

[BlackVoid]

I think the IAI kill implies that they didn't know you were a Mason during D2 as you are a much better NK target than IAI. I think scum probably have a Role Cop and found IAI N1.

No, Sotty7 put me and Victor as her top townreads right next to each other. I doubt it's a co-incidence. I think she figured it out. She also put IAI down in her scumlist.

[BlackVoid]

bv, do you still want me on arona or you ?

I don't know. Unless someone cc's you, you are conf-town. Just do what you feel is best.

How does me being mason affect your reads/vca that you did earlier? In particular your reads on Rask and Hoopla?

[BlackVoid]

I feel like Hoopla is trolling at this point.

But regardless, the suspicion of me was from people that weren't on the Sotty7 lynch apparently thinking I bussed, blaming me for it is just silly. I'm not even sure who scum is anymore. I'll come back with a fresh head tomorrow. Hopefully GM has checked in by then. Please don't end the day until this happens and I get a chance to talk to GM about her reads and stuff. Then we'll see.

[BlackVoid]

For anyone

Do you think scum!Raskolnikov makes sense with town!me?

It's not impossible for him to be whiteknighting you, no. Why do you ask?

[BlackVoid]

Right. So, after sleeping on it, I think Rask has gone beyond the point where most people can fake their play as scum. Not just in his anger towards me (I'm sure that can be argued as non-alignment indicative even I don't think it is), but in how he's trying to gamesolve. He went from GM, Maria, and Hoopla to then narrowing it down to just GM and Hoopla and I really do get the feeling that he thinks he solved the game whether he's right or not. So, Rask is probably town.

[BlackVoid]

@Creature, you need to claim so we know whether we can clear Cloud or not.

[BlackVoid]

As far as Hoopla goes, I don't know. I think her D2 play is suspicious. This is a weak reason to townread Sotty7:

found the meta analysis of her being more active as town and quiet as scum convincing. I wouldn't be super surprised if she's scum, but there's at least three others I'd lynch before her.

Mostly just piggybacked off of my early D1 reasoning but never really evolved. In fact, it did seem to me later on that Sotty7 was having trouble posting. She followed a pattern that I sometimes see from scum which is post regularly at certain intervals (morning and evening). Someone who prefers playing as town tend to pop in at random times to add stray thoughts.

Finally, her reason to vote Sotty7 comes when she's on the ropes. It's looking more and more like she bussed the partner who had gotten locked into a claim.

But there's still the fact that if she was planning for Sotty7 to claim and lynch someone else, surely she could have been on the wagon. I thought her reaction under pressure was sincere but I may be reading too much into things that are just playstyle/personality based.

[BlackVoid]

@Jaack, you completely set on Hoopla or you'd still consider lynching elsewhere?

[BlackVoid]

Well, I think Hoopla is probably scum but I'm not sure and I think another flip would help to read her. But I don't want to hold up a lynch on someone who may as well be scum and who I was scumreading all of D2. In the event Hoopla is town, if you really think the flip will help you get better reads, then I'll go ahead and hammer. If not, then it might be worth exploring other options. MariaR is who I'd want lynched just because her trying to do everything the opposite of what I do feels fake but I admit I could be a bit biased there. Although she did use that as an excuse to not vote Sotty7 so there might be something. I'm not wholly confident there though. If it's Hoopla, who do you think is the partner?

[BlackVoid]

I was the one that said it:

I also think that Sotty7 enlisting MariaR's help in pushing Jaack and using her Jaack push as a reason to townread her is something scum do to town. That's more likely than two scum just deciding to push Jaack and townreading each other for making the same push. That leaves us with GM. I'm still looking for any indication that might point her way and coming up short.

GM doesn't. MariaR might be going for a "why would I defend my partner" gambit but she did push Jaack and Sotty7 was having a major clash with him D1. After that push, Sotty7 townreads MariaR and tells me how amazing her Jaack push was. That looks like scum who found town to support their push. Hoopla is iffy but like I said Sotty7 was buddying her. Rask is the one who does make plenty of sense as a partner.

I was playing devil's advocate but that's when I stopped truly believing MariaR was scum. Thanks for reminding me. I wasn't sure how much weight to put into it.

I'm coming around to thinking that the team is Hoopla/GM as well. I'm down to lynch Hoopla once GM checks in.

[BlackVoid]

You moved on pretty quickly after figuring out I was a Mason. That's a lot less genuine reaction than MariaR's who just had her mind blown. Suspecting Jaack but not Rask is a real stretch. Having MariaR as a townread and Jaack as a suspect is absurd. So, you'd lynch Hoopla, Creature, Jaack and Cloud?

I had questions but everything about that catchup is just oozing scum I don't even know where to start.

[BlackVoid]

But okay, here are questions: how did you get to this strong townread on MariaR? It feels like you didn't even register what happened D2 with the Sotty7 lynch. Because to come into D3 scumreading me and townreading MariaR is something that I find very hard to believe.

By the way, since everyone except the Masons have claimed VT, Cloud is as good as confirmed town. I doubt that there would be just three masons and no other power role.

[BlackVoid]

@GM, just to be clear, you are still townreading MariaR because she told people to let GreyICE catchup and called me and Jaack scum when we pushed on Sotty7? You're kidding, right?

[BlackVoid]

@Hoopla, I was townreading Jaack since D1 even before Sotty7 flipped. I felt that he has towntelled and the flip only added to that feeling. I see your point on Cloud but I agree he's town anyways so we're on the same page there. What do you think of GM's catchup? I thought there was too little evolution of reads and when the rest of us have been trying pretty hard to figure out what was going on and reconsidered reads several times, she's just happy to dish out age-old townreads with no intention of reconsidering them or seeing who she might be wrong about.

[BlackVoid]

Could vote Hoopla but any chance we can do GM first? She's much more obviously scummy.

[BlackVoid]

Alright then, let's hope we're right.

VOTE: Hoopla

[BlackVoid]

@Hoopla, if you are town, give us one last lynch list. You throw around a ton of teams but I'd like to see one clear ordered list starting from your top suspect to your least.

[BlackVoid]

Starting on Night Three, I will accept speed deadlines if ALL players (including those without night actions) ask for it via PM.

Can we do this please?

[BlackVoid]

What I'm wondering is how Jaack suddenly started being thrown around as a lynch possibility. GM started that yesterday I think and MariaR latched onto it. I've been townreading Jaack independent of Sotty7's flip and with that flip, I just don't see any way Jaack bussed her the way he did. The Jaack suspicion is likely coming from scum who don't want to get eliminated quickly based on pairings. Based on today's posting, Cloud has been my strongest townread along with Jaack... which isn't really helpful since I was virtually certain they both were town anyways.

We've got a pool of four: MariaR, Rask, GM, Creature. Here's what I want from each of you. Make a case on who you think the scumteam is, based off of interactions with Sotty7 as well as each other. If you are town, you know that two of the remaining three are scum. Who is it?

I'm not happy enough with Rask's "I'm pushing GM and none of the non-GM teams work." Because GM-Creature doesn't really work as GM was pushing him all along and he seemed completely certain that Creature was town anyways. From his POV, it has to be GM/MariaR but he isn't pushing MariaR.

MariaR's strong townread on Rask is bordering on improbable. If she's town, she should know that scum are two of GM/Creature/Rask but suddenly decides to bring Jaack into the lynchpool.

I don't like GM's suggestion of telling us to lynch her today. If you are town, you are wrong on one of your townreads on Rask, and MariaR. It would be really helpful if you could point out where you think you went wrong.

Creature - what do you think of Rask now? Who's scum?

Anyways, I think I want MariaR or Rask today. Leaning towards MariaR but I really want to see reads from GM.

[BlackVoid]

Damn, wished I could do more.

Do more what? Helped stopped Hoopla's lynch? You were one of the people on it.

[BlackVoid]

Well, you are the only one out of the pool of four I don't want to lynch so I could use your help.

You are either wrong about Rask or our scumteam is GM and MariaR. How strongly do you still feel about Rask being town after that flip?

[BlackVoid]

I'm pretty convinced the scumteam isn't GM + Creature. I could be wrong on one of them but GM has pushed Creature all game. I think we should definitely lynch inside Rask/MariaR today and lynch the other tomorrow.

[BlackVoid]

GM makes the most sense at this point for scum no 1, but I'm pretty stumped as far as scum no 2 goes.

If GM is scum, it has to be with MariaR so might as well lynch MariaR first, right? Because unless you are arguing that GM and Creature are a team (very unlikely), or GM/Rask (lol, although I think GM's townread on Rask is really weird), it has to be MariaR as the partner.

But in MariaR's case, I could see her being partnered with GM, Rask, and even Creature.

[BlackVoid]

By the way posts 40 and 41 confirm Cloud as town after MariaR's scumflip just in case anyone still has doubts.

[BlackVoid]

I actually think you/GM is pretty likely. Rask if scum has gone over and beyond what I think a scum player can do.

I'm actually wondering whether Rask makes more sense than GM but one thing I'm sure of - there's literally no way I want MariaR is lylo. Yeah, you've been doing a good job mislynching townies while opposing scumwagons. How did you even start scumreading Hoopla anyways? That read just came out of nowhere. You were opposed to the wagon D2.

[BlackVoid]

This is true and that's one way of looking at it.

The thing is I don't understand how on earth MariaR has this strong townread on Rask. I don't understand how GM has this strong townread on Rask after he pushed her throughout the game.

I

do

understand Rask scumreading GM and MariaR. Those are sensible reads.

If only one of Rask and MariaR are scum, which is more likely? A town-MariaR going out of her way to defend a scum-Rask or a scum-MariaR whiteknighting a town-Rask telling us that he's town so after we lynch him, she can say "I told you so?"

[BlackVoid]

What is that list and what do the first five players represent?

[BlackVoid]

Tell you what, lynch MariaR today. Take care of Rask tomorrow if she's town. One of us will die tonight. The other can force a Rask lynch by voting him.

[BlackVoid]

I'm comfortable leaving Rask for lylo because I have no doubt you (Cloud) will make sure he gets lynched. I'm less comfortable with the idea of lynching Rask, him flipping town, me getting nk'd and MariaR making it to lylo with GM, Jaack, Creature and Cloud. I don't really know what's going to happen in that lylo and I don't want a scenario where MariaR remains alive. If Cloud is the one that dies tonight, I'll make sure Rask is lynched next. But I want MariaR today.

[BlackVoid]

I agree but i might not be able to lynch her alone bv, since if maria flip town and you die, everyone will push on gm (rask/jack) and if creature is with one of them (rask) then itll be hard

It won't because if MariaR is lynched and somehow flips town, it will be lylo with five players. Two scum, three town. If you vote Rask and no one hammers, that confirms either you or Rask as scum. Since no one is dumb enough to scumread you, Rask will be pretty much confirmed scum and will be lynched tomorrow. Then you get nk'd and the final three would be Jaack, GM, and Creature. Hopefully Jaack will make the right decision there.

[BlackVoid]

What I'm really sure of is that at least one of Rask or MariaR are scum. Vote her with me and if you get nk'd, I'll make sure Rask goes tomorrow.

I forgot I wasn't even voting her.

VOTE: MariaR

[BlackVoid]

It's four to lynch so it's L-1 but I don't really mind if anyone hammers so I'm leaving my vote there. Also, yeah if she flips town, we lynch Rask.

[BlackVoid]

UNVOTE:

On second thought, ending the day now isn't a good idea. I want goodmorning to come and post reads, thoughts, opinions, make cases on scumreads and so on. Same with Rask.

[BlackVoid]

Creature just doesn't come across as scummy to me. My top guesses are MariaR/GM, MariaR, Rask, and GM/Rask, The last one is possible. We shouldn't discount it. It was interesting that the same day that I spent wondering if GM and Rask were the team that Hoopla presented the same idea. The major thing that makes me think that is GM's townread on Rask.

[BlackVoid]

Pretty sure at least one if not both of Rask and MariaR are scum. Them not voting each other despite knowing that if they are town, two of the other three are scum pretty much cements that.

GM has been pushing Creature for several days and has pushed hard enough to where it is very unlikely that it's a bus. That means at least one of Rask or MariaR are scum. MariaR's townread on Rask doesn't make any sense and if she's somehow town, I trust Cloud to make sure Rask hangs tomorrow. If she's scum like I think, we can consider all the other options. GM may or may not be scum but it's suboptimal to lynch her today and the possibility of BOTH Rask and MariaR making it to lylo would be my worst nightmare.

Funny how the clears want Rask or MariaR and they both teamed up to lynch GM. But yeah, once GM returns and posts reads and stuff, we should lynch MariaR.

[BlackVoid]

I know bussing is a thing. I'm saying GM's Creature push doesn't feel like a bus to me.

[BlackVoid]

if GM flips town I'll accept being counterlynched 100%

That's what the Hoopla lynch was for. You had the option between GM and Hoopla. You chose Hoopla.

[BlackVoid]

@Mod, can you prod goodmorning?

[BlackVoid]

I think I'm going to wait for GM or her replacement. We still have five and a half days and I want to end this day with a scum lynch that I feel confident about. So far, I've had a scum lynch rate of 33% which is atrocious so I want to be more sure and be right this time. If I have to make a rushed decision, I'd obviously push for Rask or MariaR. This is me trying to figure out if I'm wrong on either or both of them so the delay should be good.

[BlackVoid]

Can you explain the exact reason you passed on the GM lynch option to go for Hoopla? It seemed like GM was your number one scumread for a very long time.

[BlackVoid]

I don't know. I have a feeling Rask is town but need to re-read him to make sure. If I do wind up with a confident townread, I think lynching MariaR and going from there might be a better idea than locking in a Rask lynch if she flips town. That only works if I'm alive tomorrow though. I can't stop Cloud from just voting Rask.

That's why I think waiting on a replacement is good. I want to read the GM-slot from a different angle.

[BlackVoid]

Why can't Creature/MariaR be a team? That's actually a possibility I'm considering.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, let's say you are wrong about Rask and I'm completely off on both Rask and MariaR. What's wrong with MariaR's proposed team of GM + Creature? (Other than what I said about GM pushing Creature). What makes it unlikely that GM is bussing Creature? She did say that she doesn't bus so it would be a good place to change up her "meta."

[BlackVoid]

Let's not rush things guys. Even if GM's slot is scum, it's better to have a replacement, think about our options and then lynch. If it's town, tomorrow is going to be very difficult.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, so HavingFitz - here's the situation. Most players want your head on a plate today because of your predecessor. Rask, MariaR, and probably Jaack. I'm not even against it. We've got three and a half days left. If you want to save your slot, you should post whatever you learned from your reading and give us as much content as you can.

By the way, how did you figure out that I was a Mason and that Cloud claimed? You had 134 pages to read so it seems odd that you knew this. It does make more sense if a scumbuddy was feeding you information about the gamestate.

[BlackVoid]

Hey HavingFitz, while you are here, care to answer my question about how you knew I was a Mason and that Cloud claimed when those claims were buried under 134 pages of content? How much of the thread had you read at that point?

[BlackVoid]

Here's his last replace in as town. He does say that he skimmed over the game. Here's another one. The interesting thing to me is that he takes over two days since his replace in to catch up on both those games. They were both around twenty pages at the point he replaced in. Here, he knew about the claims the same day he replaced in despite this thread being more than six times as long.

[BlackVoid]

I would have bought it if you said that you saw people talking about them in the recent pages since you joined and deduced it from that. But I find it hard to buy that you clicked on 130 pages one by one and scanned them for claims

[BlackVoid]

Don't hammer yet by the way. I'm re-reading ISOs and want to discuss a few things.

[BlackVoid]

I'm midway through reading GM and I'm really conflicted. There are some things she does that seem to come from a scum perspective (the lame townread on me, the easy backing off of BBT when he said he was busy, not voting Sotty7 despite suspecting her, leaving her vote on Victor and not really being focused on achieving a good lynch on D1), but there are also some interactions with Sotty7 that just seem outright bizarre for scum to have with their partners. For example, telling Sotty7 that she wasn't interested in helping her produce content and shutting her out while Sotty7 takes a more consoling and placatory stance towards GM, trying to butter her up and engage her. If scum-theater was what they wanted, I think GM would be happy to have back and forth arguments with Sotty7 but that just doesn't look like it. There's also Sotty7's post where she encourages me to push GM on why she said she would join the Sotty7 wagon. So, I don't know. Need time to think.

[BlackVoid]

If you can give me links to previous games as town where you replaced in and caught up in a similar manner, that would be very helpful. I'm talking about games where you skimmed lots of pages looking for claims and votes.

[BlackVoid]

If Fitz is scum, it pretty much has to be with Creature. I can't see MariaR trying to power through a lynch on her partner when it would clear Rask and leave her and Creature as the most likely two next lynches. I also didn't really see MariaR, GM, and Sotty7 as a team co-ordinating that early BBT push all together. I doubt it's GM and Rask not only for the obvious reasons but because of GM's D2 vote on him.

So, does GM/Creature make sense? I don't know. GM parked a vanity vote on Creature while Hoopla and Jaack were being run up. Then continued to try and push Creature when Sotty7 was getting lynched. But if she was focused on bussing, why not bus the partner that already claimed and would likely be lynched anyways instead of focusing on the one who would be more likely to make it through? The obvious explanation I can think of is that she didn't think Creature was likely to get lynched that day. She only started casting around for Rask and IAI wagons when Sotty7 got heat.

@Fitz, yeah I just want to see how you replace in when you have lots of pages to read.

Can you also clarify for me what exactly you did upon replacing in. Were you following the game before? When did you actually start reading? Did you click on every single page in your initial skim?

[BlackVoid]

Who's the partner then?

[BlackVoid]

Damn when someone scumslips and someone else says it can only be scum with me.

"Scumslip" is a bit of an exaggeration. Did he "slip" the same way Hoopla did? Which, by the way I have no idea what you were referring to when you said Hoopla scumslipped.

Creature might actually be the most optimal lynch today.

[BlackVoid]

It's either Creature/GM, Creature/Rask, or Creature/MariaR.

GM/Rask is a stretch. A big one. Rask/MariaR doesn't really fit because of lots of interactions. GM/MariaR doesn't fit either. They were too in-sync. They were the only two players besides Cloud who pushed me as scum. They along with Sotty7 went for BBT. I could see one of them as scum but not both. So, we lynch Creature. Figure this out tomorrow.

[BlackVoid]

So, MariaR - if you really think it's Creature and GM, you shouldn't have a problem joining me here.

VOTE: Creature

[BlackVoid]

What got you to this sudden reveal?

Even if GM is scum, I don't see who could be a partner outside of Creature. But I could see Creature with anyone really. That was the tipping point. I still don't entirely trust Rask. It's possible he's protecting Creature. I've also talked about how I think you could be a possible Creature partner. He's the safest lynch and then we can re-analyse tomorrow.

[BlackVoid]

@Cloud, who is scum with Rask?

Honestly, if I'm going purely with Sotty7 interactions, Rask does come across the worst. There are so many things that look like they could both be partners while there are many other things pointing away from GM-Sotty7 as partners and Rask does keep force-fitting scumteams that just don't make sense. My townread on Rask is mostly from reading emotions - like the way he keeps insisting that I was doing the scum's job and that he wants to quote you at endgame and such. He also seems more emotionally invested than in any of the scumgames I've read of his. If he's scum here, he took his game to the next level.

[BlackVoid]

If we do decide to go with Rask, we still need one more vote even assuming Fitz would vote him over himself. Convince another person to vote Rask and I'll think about switching.

[BlackVoid]

I still suspect MariaR. It seems like a gambit to hard-defend a partner and then play up the "I always bus" meta card. She did ignore the Sotty7 wagon day one, then push everyone voting her day two. It almost seems like they had a conversation in their mafia chat.

Sotty7: Should we kill TwoFace? That might lead back to me though.
MafiaR: Don't worry, it's too obvious. If anyone takes the bait and pushes you, I'll say that they are framing you.

[BlackVoid]

You've pointed out two posts so far, why? I've been reading everything that's being posted.

[BlackVoid]

Ah, okay. Didn't realize you wanted comments.

It's possible he's protecting Creature.

Well I am protecting creature. I especially don't want to lynch him out of the 3, he looks the most like a mislynch and probable game over if cloud votes me as expected in a lylo scenario too.

I don't think gm/maria is as bad as what you're making it out to be because you're applying scum burden of proficiency to gm (lol) and expecting maria to be predictable, neither of which are things I would bank on.

I don't really understand your Creature read. I don't know when you started townreading Creature. It seemed to just magically pop up and the read became incredibly strong. This is odd to me because Creature is far from obviously town. I've been going back and forth and having a hard time figuring out what I think of him. Reads I don't understand are bad. But every single player in the lynchpool has reads I don't understand so I don't know.

It's true that if you are town, you'd want to absolutely lynch scum today so you don't autolose with Cloud's vote tomorrow. Obviously, I agree. Where we disagree on is who the scum actually is. I've read over GM and I'm conflicted but still see some of her Sotty7 interactions as weird to come from partners. You had a similar degree of certainty when you pushed Hoopla. Even if you are town, you could be wrong and I don't think going with your most certain read day after day even when you are wrong is viable from my standpoint. I don't know your alignment. I don't know that you'll be right even if you are town.

Out of the 3 players too it's most likely creature's townread is genuine as he has seen both sides of my play. Maria I know loves to buddy and whiteknight often as scum and took a game off me by fooling me that way before, and I never understood either GM townread or fitz ignoring.

I don't understand Creature's townread on you. He just said you are playing differently than you did in another game. How and what differences there are, he never explains. MariaR also uses "meta" to read you without explaining why your meta here is your town meta. I don't think it is at all unlikely that Creature and MariaR are partners. I've brought this up several times and everyone just says that's not the team. Maybe quotes will help me see what I'm obviously missing.

[BlackVoid]

Hey BV, if you assumed two things
1) I'm town
2) I will be mislynched lylo if today is a mislynch

what would you do?

Obviously, I'd just lynch you so that I can eliminate the scenario where you are scum and all potential associations with you.

You are basically saying that town only has one shot at lynching scum because if we're wrong, you are an auto-lynch and auto-loss. In that case, I'd say taking that one lynch tomorrow is a better idea since we have more information to use.

[BlackVoid]

Man, those Rask posts read fake as hell.

[BlackVoid]

I ISO'd Creature and now I don't think he's scum. Sorry I'm so indecisive.

UNVOTE:

This game is hard and while Sotty7 may not have been particularly skilled at dodging a lynch, it looks like she's a pro at hiding who her partners were. She interacted with every single one of Rask, MariaR, Creature, and GM in a way that makes me think she was talking to town.

[BlackVoid]

Maybe we should just go with MariaR. I was scumreading her for the longest time and maybe we should just go with Occam's razor and assume that defending scum is more likely to come from scum.

[BlackVoid]

Maybe if we just lynch havingfitz and MariaR, we don't have to worry about LyLo.

So, Fitz is bussing?

[BlackVoid]

Why don't you want to lynch MariaR though? You just said she and Rask are partnered.

[BlackVoid]

Alright, enough hesitating for me. Let's go for it.

VOTE: MariaR (L-1)

[BlackVoid]

On hindsight, I guess it was fine. Shouldn't have assumed that it would be different from that open setup. The outsized importance that Cloud placed on his role wasn't really something I found to be alignment-indicative. Cloud was an epic-mafia player. I wasn't expecting him to be rational. Delaying claims on weak roles I assumed was just one of those silly things that EM players would do.

[BlackVoid]

If it APPEARS that it's Friends and Enemies, yet only one side is different, wellllll......)

Except we didn't know what the last scum role would be. HavingFitz could have been a scum rolecop for instance. But you are right to an extent. When I saw MariaR flip second goon, I wondered if it was just all goons.

[BlackVoid]

Nah, I took his reads into consideration. His case influenced my decision to go after Sotty7/MariaR at the beginning of D2.

[BlackVoid]

I figured I'd get killed N3 if we did that. If I didn't claim, I'd almost certainly have been killed anyways since they knew I was a Mason. I wanted to stay alive an extra day to hopefully lynch scum and we did lynch MariaR so it wasn't a waste. I was more active than Arona so I thought I could influence the lynch more. If I wasn't there, I don't know what would have happened. Rask probably would have decided the lynches which I guess would be fine. He'd have gone for Fitz before MariaR I think but his reads weren't all that bad.

In that scenario, it would have been:
D4: Lynch Fitz
N4: Kill Jaack (Cloud would say he protected Arona)
D5: Lynch MariaR
N5: Kill Arona
D6: Three way between Rask, Creature, and Cloud

I don't know if it would have been significantly better than what happened from a technical standpoint. Either they buy that Cloud delayed a mason kill for a day or they don't. Which is a similar decision that Fitz and Creature had to make in lylo.

[BlackVoid]

I think the real screwup was lynching Hoopla. That's my regret this game.

[BlackVoid]

Can I know what I did wrong this game I feel like at the end I was stuck in a loop and couldn't do much this was def one of my meh scum games

Honestly, part of my scumread on you was influenced by seeing your townplay in podoboq's game. There you made sense especially when Eagersnake was getting wagoned and suspected Boring so I had you as a townread pretty early on. You might say that you never defend partners before but there's a first time for everything and the way you dug your heels in and defended Sotty7 didn't feel genuine and it didn't show the same depth of thought I expected from you as town. I think if you were town, you would have at least some concerns about Sotty7.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I'd love to play with you too Sotty7, hopefully with both of us being town.

[BlackVoid]

Can we see the private scum topic?