Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[Sotty7]

First page discussion about dice voting
Second page post about not random voting

Only thing missing is a shameless bandwagon discussion

vote: goodmorning

[Sotty7]

I'm curious Cloud, how do you kick start games on epicmafia without random voting?

RVS has been here for as long as I have been on this site, or at least as long as I remember. It's changed and migrated over the years, but it is pretty much always fruitful in starting the game from nothing, especially since day starts became more common. It's not perfect but the reason it is still here is because there hasn't really been anything to replace it.

I mean right now we have you and Michel debating playing style over anything that has really happened in the game yet. Strongly held play ideals won't change from a scum to town role, but perhaps how someone enters the game in "RVS" will.

[Sotty7]

Is that what you were looking for?

Exactly.

[Sotty7]

Beggars can't be choosers.

Unvote, Vote: Raskolnikov

[Sotty7]

Happy enough with hoopla's post on Michel to have him as my first town read. Hoopla piggybacks off this with a slight town read as well, even though she probably would point this out as scum or town.

Cloud I have a neutral read since most of his posts have been about playing style but I'm hoping that's just because he is new.

Everyone else is pretty much nothing at this point.

[Sotty7]

Happy enough with hoopla's post on Michel to have him as my first town read. Hoopla piggybacks off this with a slight town read as well, even though she probably would point this out as scum or town.

Cloud I have a neutral read since most of his posts have been about playing style but I'm hoping that's just because he is new.

Everyone else is pretty much nothing at this point.

lol funny, i have no idea why youd make a post avec someone null-telling with non-alignement tellings posts about mechanics. Also, whats the difference between ''much nothing at this point'' and ''neutral read'' -> isnt everyone a neutral read by default when you dont have any reads on them

What do you think of this wagon that's popped up?

You're right about the neutral read but I wanted to make more of a mental note when it came to you.

[Sotty7]

Also, looking over goodmorning's ISO, I don't see a lot there that's making me feel good about the slot. Better bandwagon then Rask, IMO.

Vote: goodmorning

@Hoopla, sotty: care to come back?

I'm tempted but rask's case on hoopla is pretty weak I'd rather keep my vote there for now and see where it goes.

Pre edit: I haven't read her post above me yet. During the hours of 8-6 CST I'm at work and posting on my kindle. I'll be doing my best to keep up but my more substantive posts will be in the evening.

[Sotty7]

Of those three I think Sotty is most likely. She had an empty vote, but at the same time added a few weak reads right afterword. Seems like someone who knew their vote was not good, so they decided to put down some content so as to not get blamed for fluff. 86 also shows more self awareness about the quality of her posts.

Of course I want to generate content, that's part of the reason I attempted to start two separate wagons (gm and rask) I won't make excuses for the quality of my posting (yeah, it was an empty vote) but I do think you're being a little harsh considering everything you listed here could also be ascribed to town posting. That said, I like your tone and for page five I've seen worst cases.

I don't want to step on Hoopla's toes because gambits are the name of her game. I find her generally hard to get a read on in the early game so I tend to sort her town and let her out herself as scum as the game draws on. It helps that I value her as an extremely strong town player and would really like to tag team on this game if she is indeed town. Because of this I found Rask's initial case and vote on Hoopla weak, but most of it could be down to a lack of experience with her which could be understandable. However, Rask's vote remains despite Hoopla's reasonable responses to his points.

I like BBT more for scum at this point. He came in with a vote on Rask to start a wagon, there were already two other players with two votes at the time Blackvoid and gm. It seems to be an attempt to sort Rask which comes quick and with no further elaboration. I would have expected more considering the history they both speak to. Feels like he started the wagon then panicked a little when it took off. I also remember BBTScum being very no nonsense cutting to the heart of the matter, were as townBBT being more open.

Unvote, Vote: BBT

Rask - What do you think of BBT now? Is my meta outdated?

I like twoface so far, I mean he hasn't done much but I don't get the feeling he is trying to hide anything from his posts.

Other scum reads, Cloud maybe? I can't decide on him. We'll put I am Innocent as a scum read for now just for lurking. Like what the hell dude?

[Sotty7]

gm defending Hoopla is cool by me as well. Less willing to join Michel there as a result.

[Sotty7]

Not just you.

I'm having mixed feelings cause the first part of Scotty's post felt like BS but I agree with the BBT read

Tell me more. Mostly how these two thoughts jive with each other

[Sotty7]

>I dont actually know if this is towny or considered anti-town for outing possible soft but, why using the word

Innocent

capitalized over town/townie/sided with the town ? And if this was a soft, wold you make yourself the goal to have interactions with me almost every single you have? like i feel you have 0 actuals reads on me.

Innocent is capitalized because I was talking about a player that is in the game -> "I am Innocent" I don't blame you for missing it that, he's a lurking bum right now.

I agree with Blackvoid's feelings when it comes to Rask, his wagon and Hoopla. Post 147 is good.

VOTE: Sable Spread out the votes

Wrong game?

[Sotty7]

Twoface is right I don't think you're lurking cloud. I was talking about IAI aka I am innocent the player who just posted his v/la until Tuesday. I thought I already cleared that up.

[Sotty7]

Rask - thanks for the response. I'll read it over in more detail when I get home tonight

[Sotty7]

Rask - Thanks for the meta input. I think it might be better for us to continue this once BBT comes back and starts posting more. I'll put a pin in it for now.

Twoface being like antisocial and giving a "fuck you" vibe doesn't get any points but it's hard to judge it from style from an alt without meta available. Him not voting anyone despite seeming to have problems with people is kind of weird to me. Would think he'd vote victor or maybe cloud at this point given the things he said.

I didn't even notice he wasn't voting anymore. Town read downgraded.

I really don't care about the coin flip thing, I'm not taking it to mean he is letting the coin decide his vote expect maybe in the initial stages of the game. It's a quirk I'm fine with. The lack of a voting is more damaging than anything else, you should always be trying to work your vote as it's your strongest tool. Not only that but it provides info about were you stand at any given time, not to mention potential VCA's. It's day one Twoface, what are you waiting for, vote your top scum read and lets get going.

Was about to vote victor actually but his response makes me think town, and goodmorning's push on him has been weird.

Why were you about to vote victor? Cutting through GM's style I fnd myself agreeing with things she has posted (hoopla stuff, BBT stuff, maybe not so much Victor stuff) Why don't you come and join me on BBT instead? I know you kinda want to.

I'm not really interested in a Victor vote. His stuff on Twoface is mostly good and I haven't hated his responses to GM. If he addresses Hoopla's questions, that would be even better.

[Sotty7]

LOL woops btw i just townsliped that i cannot be mafia with i am innocent or i am a pro at forum mafia in my first game

Usually when you point out things like this yourself they're less likely to be true than if someone else noticed it themself. Kinda like when people use the argument "I would never do X as scum", when that person has been doing X all game.

I come from a site where its very very hard to townslip on purpose and this was genuine. Its not alignement indicative to point said slip, you can then judge for yourself if you believe it is one or not Mostly scum will disagree, ppl who will 100% buy it are scum pocketing you and the rest is yolo. Seriously most of the users on EM are disgustingly incompetent at mafia so i point out the slips. But i agree with the wifom.. i would never wifom like that as scum
Also, its just a non-team slip and its an obvious one

Someone points out why self meta is bad, you quote them and continue to self meta.

The flirting stuff is gross too

EBWOP: This is all because you can't read her Cloud? The vote suggests you are leaning more scum than anything else. When you say you want a read from her- you want her to read you or the game in general?

MariaR - Have you seen this from Cloud before?

[Sotty7]

This reads to like you are saying that Rask's case on Hoopla is weak because Hoopla is an extremely strong town player. Unless you meant to write something and forgot, that doesn't really make sense. Can you rephrase?

My problem with Rask's case on Hoopla was that he was finding Hoopla scummy for things Hoopla does all the time. Things like dice tag voting are just reaction testing things she does. He would then go on to push Hoopla's suspicion of gm which I felt was pretty obvious how strong that was. I just felt like he was missing the point by a wide mark, which is why I made the comment about not having experience with Hoopla. Other Rask's posts lately feel good though, his case on GM is kinda like his case on Hoopla, so I'm thinking that's just how he reads potential scummy behavior, more black and white and less in between the lines.

As for the partner stuff, I'm not looking to make connections right now. I am leaning more BBTscum - RaskTown though.

Hmmm, I feel like I have a lot of town reads and not many scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sotty7

I've felt vaguely suspicious of her for a while for reasons I can't put my finger on yet. I also feel like she's been preemptively buddying me and has ruled out the possibility of trying to read me/interact with me today.

Well this does make me sad. I was waiting for BBT to come back to try and get you to join with me. I was also seeing what would become of you and Victor since I am reading him different than you at this point.

His stuff on Twoface is mostly good

The fact you're not voting. Again, why?

I feel like Hoopla/GM v Victor is a town scrap, at least to me seems to be centered around misunderstanding how others are posting. I'm not seeing anything really scummy here. I'm becoming more and more suspicions about Twoface who is dacing around this back and forth and who isn't even voting when it looks like he has clearly picked a side. Fanning the flames more than anything.

Unvote, Vote: Two face

[Sotty7]

The fact you're not voting. Again, why?

That was good? Damn you must be a shitty player

I already answered him, so why did you just ask me when you should know the answer?

No real need for this, however true or not it might be. I answered your question as to why I liked what he said about you. Your answer obviously didn't sway me otherwise I wouldn't be voting you. I was under the impression the coin flip was a gimmick, to that end, wither you flipped a coin to stay in or out of RVS isn't important. Like you said in post Post 239 you'll have reasons to vote and unvote, you must have a reason to not be voting at the same time. Are you saying that the coin is real and you will wait until it lands were it needs to be? If that's the case I would rather you'd follow Hoopla's lead and use dice tags so at least we can see your working and fully buy into the gimmick.

In the same breath, talk to me about your Victor scum read. If anything Victor has been playing Hoopla's game in not being overly clear but he has expanded on his reads/votes since their initial confrontation. Post 238 (BBT) Post 293 (BBT, Hoopla) two examples.

You seem overly fixated on a semantic battle over Victor disagreeing with Hoopla on reads. What do you think of his GM vote? Do you find Hoopla scummy? Would you vote BBT?

[Sotty7]

Wait this is interesting, didn't notice this.

Why was missing the point or not knowing hoopla meta something scummy to you?
I got the impression you voted for gamestate or the sake of getting an early wagon, but the contrast here with "his other posts are good" implies you scumread my case on hoopla.
But I don't see how "it's wrong, you don't know her/have experience with her like I do" equates into a scumread, even though I know you said you had changed your mind since then.

It all plays in. Early game it was worth a vote to see what happened. I didn't find you not having experience with Hoopla to be scummy, just something that could explain your reaction to her if you were indeed town. I really wanted to see how far you would take it and if it would become a stretch for you to keep your vote on her. You didn't try to justify your position on her as she gave you more responses to your questions. I'm happy enough with your transition away from her, hence my willingness to move away from you.

@Sotty7, I agree with you that Rask is town now and BBT might be scum. But I'm more interested in what you were thinking at that time so I can gauge your alignment. You said BBT pushed an early wagon and panicked. I want to know what your gut reaction was then. Whether you thought he was calling off a bus or got worried about being implicated in a quick mislynch. Perhaps it's playstyle but I find it hard to have scumreads be completely independent of anything else especially when they are based off of how two people interacted with each other.

Fair enough. Like I said I don't build day one votes on potential buddying because it tends to go down in flames, I don't look for buddying or bussing until we have a least one scum flip, even then I keep in mind it is something scum can and will manipulate. I was much more interested in BBT's about face with no further elaboration before dropping off the face of the earth.

I also want to discuss your read on TwoFace. He seems very town to me. Being so sure in his scumread of Victor that it blows his mind that I disagree with him is indicative of someone who truly believes their read. I don't think the lack of voting is indicative of much if his coin-flip gimmick is something he does across games. You were leading the BBT-wagon. Why switch over from BBT before he has a chance to react?

I think I addressed your questions about my twoface read. As for why switch? BBT has gone from lurking to a potential replacement candidate, not having an active scum target makes me feel extremely stagnant. My switch doesn't mean I am giving up on my BBT read I am just looking to keep push and digging up the other scum reads as well.

This is starting to get confusing.

GM can you go into your 1-2 of your other reads so I can judge them instead of this exchange?

Or if you can break down your issue with Victor into like a paragraph without the quote wall. That would be extremely helpful, cause I'm not getting it. At all. Actually I have the same request of Victor RE: his GM read as well.

[Sotty7]

Mod: Can we get a BBT prod please?

[Sotty7]

No need for what? To call you a shitty player? You said victor asking me why I wasn't voting since post 107 or whatever number was a good post. That's literally the most useless question of the game so far. So yeah that says to me that if you're town, your opinions are horrible.

phew, it's a relief you added that emoji to help soften the blow

sotty, you better go work on your game.

Always try to get better, that's my motto.

Doesn't always play out, but there you go

[Sotty7]

But let's rewind for a bit. You originally said "stuff victor said" which implies multiple things and the only thing you pointed to was 1 useless question. Where's the other "stuff"? There was no other stuff. Victor hasn't made a good post yet.

Definitely disagree, his reasoning on BBT for example is actually pretty good. The only issue I have with Victors posts is the formatting and that sometimes he leaves off the names in his quote trees which makes things even harder for bad players like myself to understand. Otherwise I know where he stands. But hey, you're voting, guess I'm doing something right.

I THINK I like sotty now, although it really doesn't help that I saw her mentioned in the goat thread, and now that I check again its for scumplay no less.

Goat thread? I did win a scummy for being scum, but that was another life time ago.

[Sotty7]

I think all the talk about the wagon on rask itself is really a wild goose chase and talking on it is pointless because it was a RVS wagon trying to think if scum were on the wagon or not is just trying to overthink when there are much more important topics you could be talking about

What topics do you think are more important? Cause you could bring them up for discussion you know.

[Sotty7]

Hey Jaack, what do you think of twoface?

[Sotty7]

Greatest Player of all time thread. Yeah, I saw that too. I almost think if Sotty7 were goat-level scum, I'd be reading her as town.

@Sotty7, what would you say is your biggest strength and weakness as scum?

Okay, now I am embarrassed.

Take this with a pitch of salt, this is my first full game back in a long time. I replaced into a game last month towards end game and before that my last full game was team mafia last year were I played terribly as scum in a nightless game. My biggest strength was knowing when to bus and making it look rational and even realistic. I'm not sure how site meta is now but I would bus a lot. I started to get try and get away from that after I became known for it. Biggest weakness I would say forcing myself to post. As town I feel much more relaxed, scum became a pressure for me and I would over think everything and it would stress me out so my posting would reduce as a result.

[Sotty7]

But hey, you're voting, guess I'm doing something right.

My voting had nothing to do with you.

Not even a tiny little thing?

[Sotty7]

#ForevernullMaria

Talk to me about your Michel scum read or if it even is one. You have left your vote here for a long time now with little to no pressure, why should we be lynching him?

Also, I think she slipped up when she spoke of BBT spent time on his rask townread as there's no way she reach that conclusion as town which is why she's ignored 320 and not responded to any of my points/questions.

I'd say this would be the strongest point on GM. The RVS thing seems like you both have different beliefs on what can and cannot be found in the opening stage of the game. I don't find that necessary scummy.

[Sotty7]

I'd feel sad and distraught and ask what's going on?

[Sotty7]

Yup I feel all those things.

So what's going on?

[Sotty7]

Who is the first point about?

I was calling Michel town.

I'm willing to put a pin in my BBT meta, I can believe it's outdated. That catch up however felt very forced and minimal and I don't like that Maria vote as a result. BBT what's your read on GM v Victor? Are you town reading Hoopla?

Mod - I'm voting Twoface

[Sotty7]

What did you like?

Post 238 Has a good point how you latched onto Jaack's read of the wagon. Post 293 goes into more detail.

Well it does, because Sotty was attempting to push a baseless scum read and instantly gave up on it when it wasn't going anywhere. She literally gave no reasons for why I was scum.

Except this isn't what happened. I voted you for you quick push and dump on Rask then you dropped off the face of the earth and what I thought was a good meta read - these are reasons.

Well it does, because Sotty was attempting to push a baseless scum read and instantly gave up on it when it wasn't going anywhere. She literally gave no reasons for why I was scum.

Not true. I gave my reasons and instead of staying in a holding pattern I moved over to another scum read. I fail to see how that is scummy and why I can't work with multiple scum reads at once. It would be one thing if you were active and posting but you were nowhere to be found. How exactly am I going to build a case of the three or four votes you had made in thread at the time?

This is Sotty desperately trying to hold onto a BBT scum read. She is now justifying her scum read after the fact. What was forced about my catch up?

What don't you like about my Maria vote? Are you town reading her? If so, why?

I like BBT more for scum at this point. He came in with a vote on Rask to start a wagon, there were already two other players with two votes at the time Blackvoid and gm. It seems to be an attempt to sort Rask which comes quick and with no further elaboration. I would have expected more considering the history they both speak to. Feels like he started the wagon then panicked a little when it took off. I also remember BBTScum being very no nonsense cutting to the heart of the matter, were as townBBT being more open.

Unvote, Vote: BBT

You can keep repeating it but I clearly gave reasons for my vote at the time and I wasn't trying to justify it after the case. If anything you are doing the exact same thing. You voted me with little reasoning and now have come back to justify that read.

What don't you like about my Maria vote? Are you town reading her? If so, why?

I am now, mostly because of your reaction to her.

Unvote, Vote: BBT

Trying to frame my vote into something it wasn't. The reasoning he scum reads me now is because I had "no reasons" for my vote on him which is blatantly false.

[Sotty7]

Sotty has what sounds like a strong bbt read too but wants to lynch twoface for something that sounds a lot weaker and kind of lame. Earlier pushing of each other is reasonable to assume wouldn't go that far, given weak reasonings given at that point. Sotty asking me if his bbt meta was outdated possibly expected me to say it was

Or maybe I just haven't played with BBT for over a year and wanted more current input? I think meta can be useful if two people claim to know each other pretty well.

I like to put my vote to work, with BBT's inactivity I didn't find in towns best interest to just sit around and let the game get stagnant. I'm going to move my vote, I'm going to pressure people. It's the name of the game and it was part of the reason I wanted twoface to commit with a vote. I have a feeling that if I had left my vote on BBT, he would have found that scummy as well.

Sotty7 wagon seems a lot more viable than BBT at this point.

VOTE: Sotty7

To be clear, I actually think it's likely BBT and Sotty7 are partners. The MariaR theory was me just brainstorming although I wouldn't necessarily rule it out.

How is my wagon more viable? I still can't believe we're trying to call partners day one with no flips. I don't get it. Is bussing still that rampant on the site?

[Sotty7]

Hoopla, what's your BBT read? I'm stating to feel you're just treading water here, first with your Maria vote and then the back and forth with Victor. Also with your vote and pressure or lack of on me.

[Sotty7]

Now, the vote away while BBT was inactive isn't so bad. But when you say his catchup was scummy again in 416 I kind of expected a change back, and you were even conscious of vote there given your statement to mod.

I decide to engage him first and I think my twoface vote did some good despite of what you think of it.

I was very conscious of my vote, I wanted the mod to fix the count for vote count analysis done down the pike line.

[Sotty7]

I'll be heading out here soon for the night (going to Monday Night Raw ) If anyone has anything they want me to go over throw it out there now, otherwise I'll be back around noonish tomorrow.

[Sotty7]

Town I have Michel, Rask and GM. Scum BBT, Twoface and I'm not sure on a third right now. I'd just be throwing someone random in here so I'll leave it open. Hoopla is starting to fall towards null/scum, Maria has moved up towards null/town.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty7, the only thing you said about Michel was that's he's town for the PSA-style declaration in his opening post. Do you have an opinion on his later posting?

It's typical of what I expect from Michel. This stuff with Hoopla, especially Post 321 where he breaks down peoples reactions to her opening dice throw, was good. I don't agree he's wishy washy.

Town I have Michel, Rask and GM. Scum BBT, Twoface and I'm not sure on a third right now. I'd just be throwing someone random in here so I'll leave it open. Hoopla is starting to fall towards null/scum, Maria has moved up towards null/town.

No read on victor? That's odd.
Hoopla read is very odd also

Odd why? Victor is town as well, I posted that reads list as I was on the way out of the door so not everyone popped into mind at the time.

Hey sotty, talk to me, i am a great read and if youre actualy town then i will defend you

What do you think of BBT's push on me?

When I ask you what other stuff about me, because victor didn't have any other stuff about me, you talk about unrelated stuff? Why.

I'm confused.

I said I liked Victor's stuff on you. This didn't mean that is was different from the stuff I had posted on you. I don't get what you are driving at here at all. It wasn't until Victor brought up you still weren't voting that I noticed and then took the time to look back. Your transition onto me is pretty transparent at this point unless you can elaborate more on this.

[Sotty7]

1. That isn't anything. he asked me a question and the question was a useless one.

2. "stuff" implies multiple things, or at the bare minimum more than 1 thing.

Victor didn't make any posts about me. He and I had a conversation answering questions and such, but he never made any negative points against me outside of me not answering his question.

so Can you please link me to the "stuff" victor supposedly said that you agreed with please.

To me the not voting thing it's something.

I'm not sure why were being this uptight about the meaning of the word stuff, but okay. Seems to be theme of this game.

Victor made posts that had things about you inside of them, hence he made posts about you. Post 199 and Post 203 are mostly what I am talking about.

Stuff means "what was posted" It doesn't mean "multiple things posted" otherwise I would have said "things" Probably? I don't know but this is getting ridiculous.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty7, while you are here, can you talk about your read on Hoopla? When there was a wagon developing on you, you said that she was starting to fall back into null/scum. That came out of the blue. What prompted that? You also didn't seem to show any interest in trying to read her earlier. When she voted you, it was just sadness. Can you go over your entire progression of your read there, where it started, how it changed and what your read is now, and talk about what specific posts caused these changes?

My progression was what has hoopla done lately. I said in my post 471 that I felt like she was treading water. She did her gambit, she got her reactions but nothing really came of it. She went back and forth with victor that didn't yeild much then switched to me. I think it was rask who asked her if she was going to pressure me but nothing really came from it execpt when she said she wasn't joking with her vote. She was engaging with me but on a very light scale. That's why I poked and downgraded my read

[Sotty7]

I'm putting a pin in my

stuff

interaction with twoface until I can read what he posted with a clearer head.

[Sotty7]

My progression was what has hoopla done lately. I said in my post 471 that I felt like she was treading water. She did her gambit, she got her reactions but nothing really came of it. She went back and forth with victor that didn't yeild much then switched to me. I think it was rask who asked her if she was going to pressure me but nothing really came from it execpt when she said she wasn't joking with her vote. She was engaging with me but on a very light scale. That's why I poked and downgraded my read

Okay. Can you also go over your reads on GM and Jaack? I have a few thoughts on them but want to see what you thought before saying. Specifically, regarding GM's interaction with BBT, and Jaack's initial vote on you.

I'll go into more detail tonight when I can look through iso's. I have a town read on GM because some of her eariler stuff with hoopla, GM's posts struck me as funny but had substance if you looked. My jaack read is a little more fluxy. I liked his initial surge into the game but since then he has been lurky and not interested in engaging with me which makes his vote look like a bit of a place holder. He was town initially more null right now.

[Sotty7]

Innocent is capitalized because I was talking about a player that is in the game -> "I am Innocent" I don't blame you for missing it that, he's a lurking bum right now.

I'm working on it I'm working on it...

PS - words hurt Sotty

It comes from a place of love

[Sotty7]

I need to get a handle on some other people. Who should I start with first? Any suggestions?

How about your reads on jaack and Maria?

[Sotty7]

I need to get a handle on some other people. Who should I start with first? Any suggestions?

How about your reads on jaack and Maria?

Why these 2 in particular?

Jaack was on my mind after my convo with BV and you had just asked for a case on me and BBT when it's pretty much what the thread is full of right now.

[Sotty7]

1. Who are you to tell me how to play?
2. How can you even tell me to vote my biggest scum read when I said in posts 242/243 that I don't have any reads. Which means I didn't have a "biggest scum read" to vote? I even said when I have reads I would vote which makes your comment to me very shallow.

1. I wanted to get a reaction. I got one.
2. In the early game no one really has any strong reads but if no one voted there would be nothing to react to and we'd all be sat around talking about nothing. The Rask bandwagon is a great example of what I am talking about.

I think I have made it pretty clear that I don't fully buy into your coin flip deal because the minute I started to hard push against you (AKA voted) you found a way to get your vote on Victor. Perhaps it was just a coincidence and you're really sat at home flipping a coin, but the timing was a little too much for me to believe. You have since butted heads with me hard fighting every possible point I have made against you to the point of tunneling. I'm starting to think we're chasing each other in circles and that your stubbornness could easily come from town which frustrates me. I'll reassess once I see more of your other reads.

[Sotty7]

lol

So about those other reads? Were you at?

[Sotty7]

Okay. Can you also go over your reads on GM and Jaack? I have a few thoughts on them but want to see what you thought before saying. Specifically, regarding GM's interaction with BBT, and Jaack's initial vote on you.

Reading through GM's ISO I still get lost in her back and forth with Victor. The whole thing just kinda washes over me and doesn't leave me with a strong impression either way. Her early town read of Rask and Two face is good, where she talks about "scum are more likely to get the subtly" I think is a good point that she didn't have to bring to the table at the time. She does leave her BBT read swinging in the wind opting instead to push on Victor, who I think is very likely town. Looks like she is cutting BBT slack that he quite honestly doesn't deserve and I think your push to ask her to detail why me over BBT is a pretty good one, but her early game play minus the Victor stuff is good.

[Sotty7]

I need to get a handle on some other people. Who should I start with first? Any suggestions?

I'd like a BBT read too, I don't see anything detailed in your ISO about him. Just saying you wouldn't vote him before he came back from his prod. Anything changed? What do you think of him being my competing wagon and the composition of those wagons?

What the hell, I'm feeling greedy ~ GM read too would make my day.

[Sotty7]

Now you're getting greedy. Plus giving reads on 4 people is getting close to reads list.

How about i just reread the thread and I'll add a couple of names into the possible scum pile. Who I'm town/null reading aren't really necessary

Fair enough, I was getting greedy.

[Sotty7]

-response to Face is bad
-asked me and Victor to condense reads on each other; didn't follow up when I did this, vaguely commented on like one line of Victor's
-support for entering Toffee wagon shallow (which I was pretty indifferent to (366)), continued reasoning on Toffee shallow (which I am much less indifferent to)
-projects a lot of what I think of as 'surface activity' which is basically looking like you're posting content, but not actually posting content. A good way to do this is to seize up on little things or get into a tunnel battle.

I think I have addressed you v Victor a lot actually. I mean what more do you want from me? I think you were barking up the wrong tree. Surface activity point is junk though I've generated plenty of content and I'm trying to disengage from a possible tunnel.

[Sotty7]

Welcome grey. I'll second hoopla's request for a more detailed victor reasoning. I have him as strong town right now.

[Sotty7]

So you have nothing at all to ask me about anything in the game?

[Sotty7]

Wtf is it with the strong victor townreads o-o

Break it down why he's scum then. The only person who has put any real effort into a Victorscum read was GM and it wasn't very a strong case.

So you don't want to move your own vote because you don't think it would be useful off of either of the major wagons.
But you also question people won't move their votes off of a major wagon onto you.
Somewhat contradictory isn't it?

Exactly. No effort being spent to dig up leads or develop reads.

Yeah, I think vigging IAI is a pretty horrible idea. If he's been busy irl and hasn't posted till now, it makes sense that once he posts more, we should be able to get a read on him. So far, his two scumreads match nicely with mine which is enough to give a slight townlean. If anyone should be vigged for low contribution, it should be Jaack.

I was about to be down with a IAI vig shot but the Jaack idea is insanely better. They both make excellent targets.

Jaack saying "but why didn't you engage me" is tickling my funny bone immensely.

I think arguing who is a better vig shot isn't really going to help us at this point. Player preferences don't make scum. Hoopla is right about IAI's entrance. He put Grey at L-1 without really investing or committing to the game. His reads are common and popular and he hasn't attempted to elaborate. Cutting him slack because he has only just started posting doesn't work for me.

[Sotty7]

When IAI has the same scumreads as me, I'm more inclined to believe IAI is town and "gets it" than that he's scum, and my entire view of the game is flawed. That I should chuck it out and start anew because a guy who was too busy to post during the first week of the game has now caught up and agreed with me.

I get were you're coming from, but there are a lot of people right now who are scum reading Grey and Jaack. Slipping in with the crowd here creates very few ripples in the pond. I'm skeptical, at least until I hear more about how he got to where he is.

[Sotty7]

I missed a lot over night. Fridays are my busy day at work so I'll check in tonight with substance

[Sotty7]

So early on Victor was getting significant pressure. A feud with GoodMorning, several votes, people pushing him, etc. He had to defend himself. Then it tapered off. What did Victor do? He tapered off. It's not like any of his comments were particularly insightful or probing earlier, but after the town read? He didn't try and sell a single person on voting GoodMorning. He just was happy to leave his vote there until the "oh gee, I guess I better join the wagon under duress".

I think the fact that Victor was more willing to leave GM than GM has been willing to leave her one vote on him show more townie cred than otherwise. He realized that GM wasn't going to happen a few people were town reading her, and he moved on. It wasn't like suspicion from him on your slot is out of the blue so switching there makes a lot more sense than say GM plowing along with her vote Victor while saying she is willing to vote either wagon. The vig stuff could easliy, yet again, be another issue on play style. I really don't find that scummy. At that point why would he suggest a vig shoot GM anyway? It's clear he has no support there anyway.

@Sotty: I disagree, as is probably obvious. I'm not really looking to have an argument about it and wouldn't have even bothered posting any of that had I not been directly asked. I've been pretty averse to pushing weakish wagons on players who are probably better than me since NY169.

Okay. Lets try this then. You're the only vote on Victor, what would you say would be the most compelling reason that he is scum. The entrance into the game point you made I don't agree with. He's moved on from interacting with Hoopla. What about his other stances makes him scum? Did you think his BBT/Grey vote was scummy?

I'm happy with Maria being town at this point.

Jack is a really good vote that hoopla, maria, blackvoid, myself have all expressed suspicion of...yet votes victor.

When GI flips scum jack is next.

I was getting ready to switch to Jaack but Grey's vote on Victor stops that dead in it's tracks. I'm staying right were I am.

This feels contradictory. Her case on BBT was a good part meta, but after Rask sort of argues against that (209), sotty wants to simultaneously drop discussion of BBT's meta while also getting Rask to vote?

I asked Rask's opionon of my BBT meta which was from awhile back. She said I was wrong I said okay, let me wait for BBT to post more and we can take it from there. Nothing contradictory.

But in that interim, she does very little to push on that TwoFace vote.

Okay that's just blatantly untrue. I push Twoface hard and we have an extensive back and forth that could have easily became a death tunnel. I am interacting and questioning twoface who starts off answering me and then just really falls back to insulting and taking pot shots at me. I pushed his voting behavior, I asked him for several reads a couple of pages back that he still hasn't provided. What would you consider "pushing a scum read"? Vote them then disappear for several pages and never interacting or questioning them again like you have been doing with me?

[Sotty7]

The contradiction is that you push rask to vote BBT immediately after saying you'll wait and allow BBT to post more.

I waited, he posted a little, I interacted with him he then replaced out. I still don't see it.

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Hey Sotty, a bunch small number of people are attacking me viciously. What does this remind you of?

I don't know what your getting at, but there is a pretty big wagon on you at this point. If you're talking about the nightless game, I have scrubed a lot of that from my memory, but I can go back and read that. If your not talking about that you're going to have to hold my hand.

Why do you think Jack is town exactly?

He's sharing my reads for the most point. his sotty push is good. Scum wagons especially early have the most resistance and I don't see more resistance to a wagon than the one sotty has had. Sotty's contribution is bland which makes the resistance to his wagon odd. Makes me think somebody who's town read hard is scum with him. Hence why I'm thinking it's you. You abandoned your vote on sotty for bad reasons which means your vote was for show. He got to 4 and you decided to hop over to an easy target.

He just admitted part of his reasoning for suspecting me was wrong, the rest of his reasoning is pretty junk as well, but brick wall, head and so on.

[Sotty7]

I find there two aspects of 271 to be contradictory.

Oh my bad. I must have missed before. My line of thinking was that I might be wrong about meta but there could still be scum here come join me. I don't agree that's contradictory especially early game trying to build a wagon.

People are writing off sotty's interactions with me but its single handily the most scummiest thing to happen. It reaks of LAMIST while not even helping progress the game.

I thought you were saying lamest before, but that's not what that is right? What does LAMIST mean?

A. I am not the only vote on Victor.
B. I am not interested in helping you look like you're doing more than you are.
C. Does the fact that the misrep was in the past make it not a misrep?
D. I am clearly not going to be able to convince you on this and I really don't want to try.
E. Is there something about the vote that I should find particularly scummy? And why ask me about that in particular?

Fair enough, Grey did just join you. I'm just trying to engage you when it comes to Victor to try and understand where you're coming from. I could be wrong, it won't be the first time and sadly not the last time. When I have different reads from someone who I read as town I want to see if maybe I'm missing something. "I don't want to help you look like you are doing something" but maybe help yourself? I'm looking at your Victor vote like Jaack's vote on me, stuck back on page 5 or whatever when all this other stuff has happened in the game that should have strengthened or weakened your point. Instead your just content to sit on there. I don't get it.

Now, for his Sotty7 vote. I found that Jaack in general doesn't actively spend a lot of time and effort pushing his scumreads. He's content leaving his vote in what he thinks is a good place and just responding to questions if they ask him any. So, that's null too.

What do you think about his back and forth with Maria when she has her vote on him asking her why she didn't "engage him"?

Oh? You honestly think I'm scum here? I don't give a fuck about BBT, do you think I'm scum?

I think your slot is scum yeah. I don't like the Victor vote and I am of the same mind of Hoopla when it comes to putting your vote there instead of on Jaack. You came in all guns blazing but your vote doesn't match your bluster, in that I think you could have swung a Jaack flash wagon. I hell I probably would have joined you over there. Instead your kicking your heels on Victor that isn't going to go anywhere. That's not the Grey I remember.

I'd like to see more of Rask. He seems to have let the foot off the gas a little since he became a universal town read. I want more.

[Sotty7]

What do you think about his back and forth with Maria when she has her vote on him asking her why she didn't "engage him"?

I'm not sure what are asking. Can you rephrase this?

In other news, I was hoping to get your take on Rask since we see eye to eye on GreyICE/BBT. I think he's the most likely partner. Can you also explain your townread on MariaR?

I'm also curious whether you think I'm missing something so commenting on my reads as a whole would be nice, especially the null reads. I think the third partner to GreyICE and Rask is in there. I just can't figure out who yet.

Reads

Town: Victor, IAI, Sotty7, TwoFace, goodmorning, Jaack, Cloud
Null: Hoopla, MariaR, Michel's slot
Scum: GreyICE, Rask

I can't link right now but posts 658 and 662 are him asking Maria why she wouldn't engage him. It feels like a push that doesn't match his behavior. Rask I have as town right now,he just started to drift into the background. Is this part of the reason you are scum reading him?

Maria is town because of her interactions with jaack and general tone feels town. There are a few reads we disagree on. I'd swap rask and two face and move jaack into the scum pile. I'd also switch Maria and cloud and hoopla is more town than null.

Why is two face town? I can take another look at rask when I get home tonight to see if anything sticks out.

[Sotty7]

Hi friends. How goes? I saw the player list and replaced in without reading anything else.

Welcome old friend, but your slot is on the ropes. There's no shame in phoning it in if you're scum and hanging out in the dead thread. I'll be there after N1 to come and reminisce about days gone by.

This has been a good hustle by Grey so far. He's really doing his slot proud, but I'm still not sold on Victor scum, sooooo I'm just gonna chill on the Jack wagon for a while...

We can see from minute 1 that she's been discouraging me from posting or giving my thoughts on the game, because she's pretty convinced she has this one tied up.

She unvoted and gave you time which you used to vote victor. I wouldn't call that discouraging.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty7, since you seem so sure GreyICE is scum, you are not concerned about any of the players trying to derail his wagon? As for my reads, I'll break this down by player.

You mean the same players who keep complaining about a lack of counter wagon but aren't really doing anything to generate said counter wagon? At least they have something going with the Victor wagon now I suppose even if I disagree. I just really hate the world view of "this is too easy" without really rallying anyone to any kind of flag.

Jaack: He was hypocritical but I don't think hypocrisy is scummy. What do you think about the points I made in 817?

For one you overstated the inevitability of a Jaack lynch, we can see that with hindsight. Several people were willing to move over but it never really surfaced. If we're going to talk about counter wagons, that one had the potential to explode and yet it didn't. The meta thing could be a good point, I just find his poking on Maria about why she didn't engage him to be a little disparate and it doesn't match with his "world view". I have asked him a couple of times why he hasn't engaged me and he keeps shrugging it off as if it's nothing about nothing, why is he so keen to get an answer from Maria? Doesn't add up to me.

Rask's buddying of Grey in the last page or so is really the only thing lately that has given me pause about that slot. It seemed less like an attempt to sort than an attempt to position himself to go either way. "I don't know if I should trust you" gave me the creeps. Pick a side and commit. Not enough for a scum read though.

MariaR: Really dislike the constant refrain of "if GreyICE is town, doesn't it bother anyone that there isn't a counterwagon." It seems like a twisted argument because she's using that to create a counterwagon. We could flip the question and ask why there's so much resistance to the GreyICE wagon that we've got first you, then Jaack, then Victor as counterwagons. Looks like a pathos-driven argument that's coming from someone who wants to push an agenda.

I'll give you this point. The counter wagon point holds no weight with me considering they have a band of players that could have done something about that by now. Why are you town reading Cloud?

TwoFace: The way he's pushing his reads, first Victor, now you. TwoFace being so sure that you are scum that he's close to the point of giving up looks sincere to me and his worldview of a Sotty7-based scumteam and frustration with the counterwagons makes sense.

Did you look at twoface's reason for his initial vote on me? He is voting me for my use of the word stuff. He repeated this reasoning in a recent post and it's just awful. Since then he has just sat on my wagon and thrown out more crap about the counter wagon (something you are scum reading Maria for) and done very little to attempt to read me. I've asked him for reads that aren't me and he still hasn't delivered. Scum can very easy fake anger here while wasting a vote and not moving it. There is an active counter starting now with Victor. Where is Twoface's vote? Still on me.

[Sotty7]

Seriously what does LAMIST mean?

[Sotty7]

Oh never mind I googled it again and I found it on the mafiascum abv page.

[Sotty7]

In a nutshell

You voted me for agreeing with the points victor made against me. Problem was victor made no points against me. So you thought you were sheeping/buddying victor and basically lying because when questioned about it was unable to provide these points you agreed with.

You voted me for not voting my scum reads, but I had just said I didn't have any scum reads.

Voting me for not voting is ploy to appear productive and look town but it's really not productive and doesn't make you look town.

you make a couple other posts that are easily made by scum meant to earn town points aka LAMIST

You're also trying to lynch bbt/grey who's obviously town and your reason for suspecting that slot from what I remember was weak.

You say I haven't given reads which is bullshit cause I've given the names of 4 people I think are scum. (More lying)

"Look at me I'm so town" is such a bullshit reason to suspect me. But I'm not going down this road again with you, I feel like I am yelling into the abyss

[Sotty7]

I mean I even gave you the summarized definition in my post above.

I couldn't get the context, plus I'm old. I'm only just getting used to "NAI"

[Sotty7]

Twoface, would you lynch Victor?

[Sotty7]

[Sotty7]

Rask why did you unvote? Espically since you said Grey's VT claim makes you feel better about him.

Oh right IAI claimed vigilante.

Pretty sure this didn't happen.

Grey saying Hoopla wasn't giving him time should be more than enough to get him lynched. Hoopla unvoted specifically to do just that and Grey puttered around laying a vote on Victor and then spent time on Hoopla's playstyle that may or may not be scummy to him. It just feels like he is stalling and trying to get people to look anywhere that isn't his wagon.

Grey with a VT claim shouldn't stall this wagon. We're back to a full player list so that shouldn't stall the wagon. The only thing at this point that needs waiting on is Cloud to post some thoughts about Grey v Victor and possibly move his vote.

[Sotty7]

I re-read vic and his points on greyice's read-progression are actually alright.

But COUNTERWAGON, plus your almost guaranteeing Grey gets lynched.

I'm on my way out the door to work so I'll look read Grey's reads later on.

[Sotty7]

Convinced one of my critical town reads is way wrong, don't think it is BV. Thinking Rask and/or potentially GM. Not interested a Hoopla vote, I feel like too many people are saying they don't like her with no one actually putting their vote were their mouth is. Makes me think scum is behind that whole underground bubbling. Perhpas IAI, but I ended up agreeing with most of what he said when he got active yesterday.

Vote: Rask

The counterwagon that was derailed by his unvote. The tiptoeing around Grey at the end of the day. The going back and forth on Victor. The disappearing when he became the default town read.

[Sotty7]

With TwoFace now being confirmed as town, I think it's worth bringing up sotty-scum again. Yeah, the wagon stalled yesterday, but looking back at that, it's odd that there were two townies (myself and TwoFace) hanging out on that wagon for a good portion of the day, but the wagon failed to gain much traction past that. Neither TwoFace or I were ever really universally townread, so, if sotty were town, it would be a strong opportunity for scum to push that wagon and then let the blame fall on TwoFace, or, more likely, me.

VOTE: Sotty7

At the same time, I could definitely go for an IAI wagon as well.

PEdit: Well what do you know, someone else would like a sotty wagon.

The fact you think that no one fancies a wagon on me is ridiculous. Nearly everyone in the game has positioned themselves to vote for me at some point today. I fully expect to be one of the major centers of attention, especially now with that kill.

What are your reasons for wanting a IAI wagon?

[Sotty7]

Let it also be known I do not believe this mason bs but for now I can't do anything to victor.

This can stop right now. We're not lynching Victor today, no matter how anyone feels about the mason claim. I don't have the patience for anyone floating the "scum fake claim masons all the time" theroy. It's bullshit.

[Sotty7]

The GM ISO is better than I remembered. The only thing I really dislike is the ease she seems to be willing to join either the BBT wagon or my wagon but never actually ever does either. Her posts have a lot of content the early game posts about Twoface and Rask feel logical and as scum she could have opted to fan the flames with little blow back. I've spoken enough about the back and forth with her and Victor. The posts going and back with BV are decent as well. She can stay town

Still agree with a lot of IAI's posts yesterday as far as reads go. His start today feels a little shaky and stand offish. Waiting for myself and Hoopla to post reads before getting stuck in is really the only thing that gives me pause.

[Sotty7]

Okay. Here's my problem. You had three major scumreads on D1:

#1 GreyICE/BBT who you voted on page five. As it turns out, a viable wagon developed on that slot, you kept your vote there and pushed until he got lynched. I never got the impression that you were actually trying to read him or wonder if you may be wrong. If you were so sure, it's doubly concerning that you never once suspect anyone that was trying to derail the wagon (Rask and MariaR come to mind).

#2 TwoFace who was obvtown but suspected you so you reacted by suspecting him back.

#3 Jaack - same deal although he wasn't as obvtown.

Your suspicions are based simply around whoever pushes you. Two of them flipped town and my bets are on Jaack being town as well. Your reads have fluctuated a small amount but for the most part have been fairly static. So far, I haven't found any of your reads to be compelling or insightful.

Nearly everyone has either expressed an interest in voting me, outright voted me or pushed me in this game. This is stretch on your part.

I didn't keep my vote on BBT. I moved it and pushed Twoface when it looked like BBT wasn't coming back, something I also got heat for. Twoface as "obvtown" is a big stretch, but clearly I was wrong there so I'm not going to argue. I disagree with having static reads. I am trying to reevaluate the game right now like anyone would do considering what happened yesterday.

[Sotty7]

The fact you think that no one fancies a wagon on me is ridiculous. Nearly everyone in the game has positioned themselves to vote for me at some point today. I fully expect to be one of the major centers of attention, especially now with that kill.

What are your reasons for wanting a IAI wagon?

I'm not talking about the difficulty of starting a wagon on you now, but yesterday. While a lot of people may have suspected you, only TwoFace and I actually stuck with a vote on you for very long.

As for IAI, his D1 entrance was awful, with suspicions on two townies (GI and myself) who also just happened to have been the favorite wagons at the time. Oh and remember how everyone was starting to doubt their Hoopla townreads at the end of D1? Look at IAI's first scumread of the day (1133).

Your IAI points are solid.

What do you think of just how long it took to actually lynch Grey yesterday?

[Sotty7]

I could also see scum in Cloud and/or Creature

[Sotty7]

Go back and check who pushed on who first when it comes to me v Twoface. Also forcing your scum meta on me doesn't work since I'm not you.

You did take a brief detour onto TwoFace before coming back to BBT, that's true. That doesn't take away from my point that most of your D1 play was you pushing BBT/GreyICE. GreyICE was towntelling hard at the end of the day. How didn't you notice that? There were times where I almost wanted to unvote.

But you didn't did you? There comes a point in the game were a lynch has to be forced through. I was happy enough with my scum read of Grey to stay committed. When he first came in I was willing to give him time, Hoopla's unvote provided him that. Grey then proceeded to put a vote on Victor despite what looked to me, like an attempt to warm the town up to a Jaack wagon. It didn't add up, so I was happy to follow through, even more so when all the talk of a counter wagon produced Victor votes. I will take my share of the responsibility for the Grey lynch, I won't deny that I was key in getting him lynched, but don't sit there and tell me he townslipped and how I didn't see it when you where the L-1 vote.

Maria's a weak town read, based on her tone and interactions with Jaack. You're welcome to convince me that I am wrong.

What do you think about my Rask vote? I noticed you didn't say anything about it yet.

[Sotty7]

Okay we can come back to Rask later.

Alright, let's talk about MariaR. Give me more than "tone and interactions with Jaack." You said the same thing in 902 ("interactions with Jaack and general tone"). What does that really mean? You are going to have to dumb this down for me a bit because it's apparently going over my head.

There are a ton of different play styles on mafiascum and a lot of them are very different to mine and what I would consider "optimal" play. Doesn't mean their way of play is any better or worse than mine, just means I need to try and read based of how they play, not how I would want or expect them to play.

With that in mind, Maria comes across as a very fluid type of player. I haven't played with her before and I am not very good at reading this style of play which is why it took me so long to commit to a read of her. Maybe it helped that she was pushing and voting for one of my scum reads at the time Jaack. I felt like Jaack's panic to the vote was disproportionate to the pressure coming from Maria. It felt like she voted him in an attempt to see if a wagon would start there and kick something going that wasn't Grey. It didn't kick off, I would say mostly because Grey didn't move his vote. Maybe I was reading too much into this since Maria never really claimed this was her plan, but that's how it looks to me looking in.

The tone thing is mostly a gut reaction. She feels relaxed and at ease which makes me think town more than scum. There is a lot of fluff in the ISO but there are also reads. She comments about the BBT wagon, on me, on Rask. The Sable vote was pretty bad, but the Jaack vote looks good to me and the Victor push makes sense if she was town reading Grey which is what it looked like at the end of the day.

Maria -

What's your read on Cloud? You two know each other pretty well by all accounts, does he lurk as scum?

[Sotty7]

Of course, I'm not all that thrilled with this conclusion. Why do you think it took so long?

I think we have some lurker scum. I just noticed that Creature didn't unvote Michel's initial BBT vote. Not sure what to make of that.

Creature what was your opinion on Grey v Victor?

[Sotty7]

I try to read but this is all over my head And sotty instead of pushing shades on the lurker maybe you should try to convince ppl why you aint scum.

I'm doing both. You're doing neither.

Are you saying you think Scum don't fakeclaim Mason? Because I have a nice bridge to sell you.

No. What I am saying is that if Victor is scum that will reveal itself over the next day or two as scum will have to kill him. Having people constantly throw doubt on his claim does little to help us right now because in a perfect world we need to keep his partner(s) hidden and force a night kill. Having every other person questioning his claim is a haven for scum.

VOTE: goodmorning

What do you think about her IAI vote?

It's not trollweirdscum, he had scum motivation for his actions. He wanted to cast doubt on people for mislynching greyice and definitely used that (IAI), and even though out of his victor read he couldn't "support" the wagon, he wanted greyice gone anyways as an experienced player so he didn't comment. His ISO is pure casting doubt on people with barely any push or commitment behind it, read what his focus was around the mid/end of yesterday.

This is a stretch. If GM wanted Grey gone she would have voted him. There was plenty of time for her to switch and she had been scum read BBT at the start of the game.

Sotty7: She didn't do much to be important, I didn't notice she was in the game

You should try reading again.

[Sotty7]

On the other hand, Grey was townreading me pretty hard, so I don't know that Scum-me would have wanted him dead.

Grey was also hard town reading me.

Just a heads up that I start a training course at work tomorrow which means I won't be able to post in the day anymore. I'll still be around in the evenings.

[Sotty7]

It's not trollweirdscum, he had scum motivation for his actions. He wanted to cast doubt on people for mislynching greyice and definitely used that (IAI), and even though out of his victor read he couldn't "support" the wagon, he wanted greyice gone anyways as an experienced player so he didn't comment. His ISO is pure casting doubt on people with barely any push or commitment behind it, read what his focus was around the mid/end of yesterday.

This is a stretch. If GM wanted Grey gone she would have voted him. There was plenty of time for her to switch and she had been scum read BBT at the start of the game.

A bit of a simplification here.

If you want to cast shade on people for being on a wagon you don't switch to that same wagon yourself. My point was there wasn't much reason for scum-gm to push victor over greyice, as though greyice did townread gm he was still a potentially threatening player to scum overall; my point was there were reasons scum gm would be happy to have that happen as well. Casting doubt and have grey go through was better than the scum-alternative choice for gm, is my point; assuming victor town if he had been lynched instead it wouldn't have been as easy for goodmorning I think, not having it go through means she didn't have to change any stance. Not to mention that outright scumreading/pushing greyice would have potentially put gm in the firing line of him or others and invited people to ask questions there. I can see the point that she maybe could have just kept a minor scumread on greyice with BBT's play as reasoning, but I don't think it's by any means that simple. For starters, other scum on the greyice wagon would incentivise gm to have held this stance as an alternative.

But doesn't it work just as well for scumGM to say the lynch is inevitable, reason a switch to Grey and have a Victor vote in her back pocket to go back to? Your case reads pretty well really until you get to your conclusions. A lot of it seems based on how you personally would have played either side of the situation. Bringing up GM's experience and saying you are disgusted this might be an option for her play is pretty manipulative. Players make mistakes and players have different styles. You can say you don't think this theroy fits the crime but to paint it as this is the worst possible option out of all the options is too extreme to buy in all the way.

So she's all alone on the IAI wagon and yet once again she's doing nothing. No case, no attempt to interact with IAI, no attempt to move anyone else onto the wagon. It's classic lazy scum voting.

What do you think of the IAI vote Sotty?

I'll admit that I didn't click all those links, but if she really doesn't spend a lot of time on IAI then you have a strong point as far as a "lazy vote" ~ I'll pick though the ISO later tonight. I personally like the IAI vote not necessarily on the strength of GM's position but because I think he could be scum. He came into yesterday with no earth shattering reads, which in itself isn't that damming. But now he is apparently fully caught up and yet is still very much standing on the outside looking in. No vote. Waiting on me, waiting on Hoopla. It feels like he is waiting for someone to come up to him and say it's okay IAI, you can vote Sotty! You can vote Hoopla. He's not scum hunting he's stuck in the mud and doing a lot of nothing.

Do you think IAI could be scum Victor?

[Sotty7]

Sotty that's a no no and you know it. Why are u pushing for a claimed masons read on me...role fishing?

lol wut

[Sotty7]

Actually never mind. IAI, if your town do some work. I want to believe, but you're putzing around not being helpful. Place your vote, even if it's on me. Do something.

[Sotty7]

Sotty was at work. I'm catching up now.

[Sotty7]

Quick skim shows me at lynch -1. I'll claim if someone has intent to hammer.

Otherwise I'm catching up for reals and about, question away.

[Sotty7]

What does NRG mean anyone?

Not really good?
Never really game?
Never random Gnome?

I even checked the Abv page and nothing.

[Sotty7]

Actually, I spent over an hour tracking all the votes from Day 1 (see spoiler), and then got busy with family stuff. So you can stop with all the "do something already" shade. Your 180 in just a few posts on me stinks, as does you day 1 voting history. I'm pretty sure town Sotty would be mixing it up, you're posts lack the passion I've seen from you in your town games. Sorry you drew scum, maybe we can play again after this game and we can be on the same side.

This is so weak. Why do you think I would be mixing it up? If I was hooked on scum why wouldn't I just stay there? How does my voting record compare against other people in the game who have parked their votes all day yesterday and all day today?

VOTE: Sotty l-1

I was hoping to get a lot from how she pushed me and dealt with gm, but

she gave up pretty fast on me and turned around on gm first thing when the wagon on her got going.

Yeah this never happened. I have GM as a town read but agreed her IAI vote could be lazy. If anything you have given up on your GM vote once one one reacted to your big case and are jumping all over me for what exactly?

Also, the mod of this game links the votes in the VCs. It's the easiest thing in the world to ISO the mod and just click the links. I could do the whole damn game in 15 minutes or less.

Yup.

He dodged posting as long as he could while being very active elsewhere. When he finally showed up and had reads they were identical to the majority. His vote on the Grey wagon was one that he could have justified no matter what action Grey had actually taken. His vote on Sotty doesn't make any sense; he strong-pushed TownSotty D1, spoke to her like he was SURE she was Town, now suddenly he's just decided she's Scum for no real reason? And his D2 start was the same as D1: he delayed posting as long as possible so he could see the lay of the land and quietly go along with - who again? - the majority. He still hasn't done anything but randomly vote Sotty (majority wagon hint hint) today either.

Exactly. People are willing to look past this because they just want me lynched, it will be key information once I do eventually flip so see exactly how he reacted to me day one v day two with no detail in between. As I read his reasons are basically nightkill. Like scum can't manipulate that to make me, the very obvious next mislynch after Grey look awful, but okay, continue with this reasoning something I have no chance to defend because pretty much everything I can say is WIFOM

This is legitimately looking like a lost cause though.

What is looking like a lost cause, my wagon? Or am I reading that wrong?

[Sotty7]

I;m pretty upset that no one else is around right now. What could be more important/pressing than this game right now?

[Sotty7]

Yes.

Or Normal Review Group. But those might be the same thing.

I googled it as well and the only option I found was Energy so I was wondering if it was some hip kid way of supporting my wagon but you clarified so we're good.

[Sotty7]

If anything you have given up on your GM vote once one one reacted to your big case and are jumping all over me for what exactly?

Yeah, I gave up on gm pretty easily, huh?

The switch to me was done pretty easily with little to no reasoning. You saw your out and you took it.

[Sotty7]

Maybe. There was a lot of underground support for you though. I the same vein there was for me, which has changed now obvisouly, but for hoopla as well.

[Sotty7]

What about my response is scum? Blanket statements like that ring very hallow. I get trying to drum up support, but you're going to have to back that up.

[Sotty7]

Raskolnikov (1)Sotty7
goodmorning (1) Hoopla
BlackVoid (1)MariaR
Hoopla (1)goodmorning
Sotty7 (5)BlackVoid , Jaack , Creature, I Am Innocent, Raskolnikov,
Creature (1) VictorDeAngelo
Not Voting (1), CloudKicker

This is where we are at unofficially. Blackvoid and Jaack are the only two "legit" votes on me. Blackvoid is pushing based off where my votes have been (voting for people who suspect me) despite my explanations and the fact that Twoface only started suspecting me

after

I voted him. Jaack's vote is based off reasons that date back to day one that I still think are pretty suspect. Blackvoid is a strong town read of mine, I do like his logical thinking and our reads tend to match up everywhere else. I think he has settled on me lately and has done very little to pressure me in any shape just resorting to banging the drum. Jaack I suspected pretty hard day one, but that has dampened a bit today. I'm not quite ready to say town, but he's not as hard scum as I thought yesterday.

Creature's vote is extremely empty. He says he doesn't remember anything I did in the game. This is pretty bullshit because even if you don't agree with my pushes I have been a focal point in this game for one reason or another. He has used this excuse to slip onto my wagon all but undetected. Likely scum motivation here as there is very little reasoning to his actions.

IAI is all over the map. I goaded him into placing his vote but he still doesn't seem very convinced, his reasoning is vague and is based off things I simply can't defend. It feels like more of a bandwagon vote to make it look like he is doing something while hedging his bets.

Rask is voting me because ??? I'm really not sure. Doesn't think I am the mason buddy, I guess? Abandoned the GM vote that was going nowhere to put me to L-1 even though all his focus is still on GM.

I think this wagon has swelled off the back off initial BVtown push that has fallen to the wayside since. The idea that I might have to claim because of lazy votes pushing me to lynch for little reason is really starting to piss me off. I keep trying to push my points but are making extremely little headway with very few in the player base willing to to interact with me. I could be extra cranky right now, because I just woke up from a nap to the election map from hell, but I really don't think this wagon has any real force behind it or reason behind it to show why I am scum.

[Sotty7]

Read wise this is where I am at in order:

Town: Victor, BV,GM
Null to town: Maria, Hoopla
Null to scum: Jaack, Cloud
Scum: Rask, Creature, IAI

Jaack and cloud are a lot closer to scum than null. Maria is a lot closer to town than null. Hoopla is nicely in the middle of null and town.

As fair warning I will be gone all of the day tomorrow again. It's bad timing, but my job put me in a month training class at the last minute so I won't be able to real time respond until around 6ish CST tomorrow evening. I also have to try and sleep for real now.

[Sotty7]

I see the unvote but whatever.

I'm a tracker, I tracked Jaack he didn't go anywhere. It was a toss up between him and twoface. I realized twoface more of a me read and a couple of people told me that I was tunneling so I ended up going with Jaack as he was my next best read.

[Sotty7]

You've played with scum IAI. Heck you nominated me for a scummy if I recall correctly after our first game. Then we played Zachtown in the Mountains. Which was all over the map IAI? It's not even close. Town Sotty would know my meta, know my cool play as scum and my erratic, don't care if I get lynched play as town.

The only thing I remember out of this is Zachtown, simply because we rolled the scum pretty quick which made it a lot of fun. It was the double day right? I don't remember the last game I played with you, in the last two years this is only my fourth game and I only know it is four games because I went back and looked at my topics. I was convinced it was three. My point is I don't remember a lot of what's past in those two years without activity going back and re-reading, it might be different if I had kept playing but I have little memory outside recent events.

I'm seeing a very tame Sotty, not aggressively pushing wagons on your scum reads, but instead trying to subtly discredit me by accusing me of being all over the place when you would know that is my town play.

I'm not subtly discrediting you, I'm out right calling you scum

Remember my meltdown in the Mountains game against Ben, where I self voted. Would you consider that "all over the place"?

I don't remember (will be going back to check it out though) Meltdown suggests that you were passionate about something. The only passionate thing I have seen from you was your back and forth with Grey which is a neutral thing cause that just escalated out of any game usefulness.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty, you mention this about me "his reasoning is vague and is based off things I simply can't defend"

You just listed Maria as "a lot closer to town than null"

What have you seen in her reasoning this game that gives such a different read on her?

I don't know how often I can say it, but Maria feels like she is playing her natural game and her tone is relaxed. You, not so much.

hmmm, those two posts were not suppose to be there, tho I did find them interesting as two face's final reads.

Sotty, Hoopla, who do you each feel is scum at this point?

One of your opening posts of the day. Feels like your waiting for others to check in, not just me and Hoopla. Why are you waiting to vote, what is that going to accomplish?

I'd like hoopla's and sotty's scum reads when they come in.

Again, not attempting to get any info or draw out reads, just waiting, waiting and doing nothing.

I want to look thru some vote counts but at this time I'm fine with sotty hoopla and GM votes.

Where's the vote?

Hoopla who else do u suspect? Thoughts on Sotty?

No comment directly on what me or Hoopla had posted. Timid questioning.

It's only after I pushed you have you gone into any detail or attempted to give any kind of reasoning beyond these cursory attempts to look busy. At this point I don't buy it. How about you tell me why did you picked to vote me over Hoopla?

[Sotty7]

But with all seriousness, i liked gm's d1 a lot and shes literraly obviously being pushed by mafia who tries to put an agenda on her ass cause shes trolly/wierd/awk, same thing sotty is trying to put on mine or throw empty shade around with 0 substance

Are you really trying to compare your play in this game with GM's? GM has actual content, you not so much

Sotty is town -> she actually out terribles lines and antagonizes town for 0 reason when about to get lynched -> bad play but might be genuine if her sr on me and jack could be backed up, didnt happen yet

sotty is mafia -> Try to get me lynched and flip the wagon onto me.

How am I supposed know you really are town as you claim unless you act town AKA post content, vote, involve yourself in the game etc. Things you haven't been doing.

Also depending on the flip, i dont think that the way it goes i am a good nk target, this means that eventually ill survive to a lylo situation if we keep mling ppl and ill have to be more active, when this will happen i will step up my game.

As town, not being a good nightkill target probably also means you're a great mislynch target in lylo so how about you step up your game right now?

[Sotty7]

Sotty, what's your opinion on Hoopla?

I have a null to town lean on Hoopla. Don't like the vote on GM but she tends to post things I agree with more than things I find terrible. Her questioning of you followed a line of thinking I had for example.

[Sotty7]

I see the unvote but whatever.

I'm a tracker, I tracked Jaack he didn't go anywhere. It was a toss up between him and twoface. I realized twoface more of a me read and a couple of people told me that I was tunneling so I ended up going with Jaack as he was my next best read.

This makes absolutely no sense by the way.

If you've got a read that nobody is believing you on, then you use your night actions on that person to catch them and hopefully prove that they are scum. You don't switch around to a more popular scumread.

Check my ISO again and you'd find Jaack and Twoface were relatively even in my suspicions towards the end of the day. That's why it was a toss up.

[Sotty7]

Thought I unvoted, but whatever.

VOTE: Hoopla

L-2

Unvote, Vote: Creature

People are all up in arms about Cloud threatening to hammer me, but he did the same thing with Grey and it could easily be this Epic mafia style or whatever. Creature has now twice jumped onto blooming weak wagons with no thoughts or logic to back up either vote.

As for the Hoopla wagon and related breakdown of the sotty wagon, I'm actually feeling more confident in sotty being scum at this point then I was when I unvoted (where I was starting to doubt myself due to cloud's activities). D1, the BBT/GI wagon stalled and people unvoted on occasion, but it never collapsed at any point. The sotty wagon, meanwhile, collapsed as soon as I unvoted and started looking elsewhere. I think that points to some scum bussing but looking for an easy out. There's a lot of 'not totally buying that claim but whatever' going around as well which I think feeds into that theory as well. As for hoopla herself

People unvoted because of the claim from what I can tell. Not because you unvoted and looked elsewhere. Can you explain to me why you're debating if I could be a scum role cop or not, or why that makes any sense to do at this point? The two paragraghps at the start of this post make no sense to me. The whole post is disjointed. You could have just came out and said "I don't believe the claim" and revoted. It would have made more sense.

BV is really phoning it in at this point. See Rask at the end of day one.

[Sotty7]

I agree it was reckless and made very little sense in context with his post. I want him to explain his thinking a lot more than he did.

[Sotty7]

I apologize I was busier this weekend than expected. I will try and catch up before work, but it's more likely to come tonight when I get back.

[Sotty7]

At this point no matter what I say BV is going to twist it to be scummy. Creature being consistent is reason for a town read? Pretty sure one of the reasons BV suspects me from day one was my consistency on both Two face and Grey/BBT. Creature jumped extremely optimistically on both myself and Hoopla and I find that scummy.

Join the jaack vote for a townblock!

I care more about lynching scum, hence the hoopla vote!

What's your Hoopla case? The only thing I can see from this day is post 1133. I was under the impression you were scum reading me and her as a team, or am I wrong with that?

Does Hoopla usually scumslip and then lurks as town?

Where's the scum slip?

[Sotty7]

Stating intent to join the Jaack wagon over the Hoopla one, but I think that's pretty clear. Unless someone can break down a Hoopla case that goes above she's been lurking. When she's been here I've liked her posting. Jaack's logic for re-voting me still doesn't make sense even more so that he seems more intent pushing Cloud than he does me.

[Sotty7]

Grey, you should start scumreading yourself and Jack. I think it might change BlackVoid's mind.

Explain it to me like I am five, what am I missing here?

[Sotty7]

Did you do your homework?

I'm not about to work out your scum read for you.

[Sotty7]

It's not so much consistency as in Creature has said at the beginning that his suspects both you (Sotty7) and Hoopla. When wagons sprung up on both of you, Creature was on them. To twist as scummy is something I found troubling. In fact, if wagons formed on his scumreads and he didn't join them, that would have been scummy. It's not like he's joining any wagon, just the ones on his scumreads. For example, he didn't bite at the GM or Jaack wagons.

Can you tell me his reasoning for suspecting Hoopla?

[Sotty7]

Jaack you want more fine first of all that vote you made was opportunistic as fuck "I was kinda okay with a Hoopia wagon" nanana you're just voting it to save your own ass you only pop up when it's convenient for you and you've coasted a hella ton this game the fact your wagon has so much fight to it shows that Hoop is a counter wagon

I get what you're saying, but the only other viable wagon right now is himself. What do you really expect him to do?

Going to double check I won't be hammering Jaack before I move my vote over.

[Sotty7]

Unvote, Vote: Jaack

Rask moved to Hoopla so this is L-2

[Sotty7]

What are the odds that the night one kill is one of the two biggest threats to Sotty7 that isn't investigated by Sotty7? Her claim and night action is too convenient for me to believe. Her reasoning for investigating Jaack over TwoFace is really weak and sounds made up.

How in the hell is it convenient? The reality is I have no actual information on Jaack. If I was scum faking a no result, why wouldn't I just claim it on Twoface? The result is essentially the same. You are completely tunneled on me for no good reason. Every time I challenge you on it, I get ignored. Why is it weak? Why does it sound made up?

[Sotty7]

Are you trying to Flash wagon GM right now Rask? Why?

[Sotty7]

BV is reading Creature as town because I am reading him as scum. That's what it looks like to me right now away. There is little logic behind the read and why I think it shows he is locked in a tunnel on me which means he is more than likely town.

Maria, you really think Scum would tunnel in so hard right now? I don't see it.

[Sotty7]

BV isn't getting lynched today.

[Sotty7]

Wait, "no result?" I was under the impression that you were saying Jaack went nowhere. There's a difference. Please clarify this.

Yeah I got a result saying he went nowhere. Which as a tracker doesn't mean anything really, a different scum could have easily made the kill. So it doesn't clear him but it sure as hell doesn't implicate him either. It's a wash

Poor wording on my part, I understand the confusion.

[Sotty7]

I also think you're acting a little intentionally ignorant. You can clearly see why the nightkill alone as well as the combination of the nightkill and track choice heavily points to you as scum. Instead of admitting that and arguing that you are still town, you are pretending like I'm being completely off my rocker.

I think the night kill was picked very well by the scum. Combine that with the Grey lynch and ALLLLLL the talk at the end of yesterday that condemned me as scum because of wagons I think they expected today to be very short and end with a nice Sotty lynch. I'm pretty sure why the game has stalled so hard towards the end of the day here, they didn't anticipate my claim and didn't really have a plan B, like at all. I was set up to fail today, why as scum would I do that? I was doing okish going back and forth with Two face, why would scum me risk that kill when it only points back to me? It doesn't point to anyone else in this game, doesn't that ring any bells for you?

I won't lie deciding between Jaack and Twoface was hard for me but I was wrong about Grey and nearly everyone in the game that I thought was town told me I was wrong about Twoface which is what tipped me over to Jaack in the end. You would still be here pushing on me if I had picked Twoface because I would have the same result but this time on a dead townie. We're walking down the WIFOM hole here but I was clearly screwed either way.

[Sotty7]

I would also support a IAI lynch should that pop up.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty7, what do you feel about Hoopla's push on you and change of stance from "let Sotty7's claim sort her out" to "lynching her today is actually a decent/good idea?"

I don't think it is a big of a switch as you are making it out to be considering that she became a very viable lynch candidate as well.

[Sotty7]

Cloud are you voting Rask because she voted you and that's it?

[Sotty7]

Hey I'm here but at this point I don't think it matters. Any questions for me I'll answer but I think we're beyond that point right now.

[Sotty7]

When does deadline actually hit?

[Sotty7]

Ah okay Friday, for some reason I thought it was going to be tomorrow at 1pm. That's a little more time at least

[Sotty7]

Cloud are you voting Rask because she voted you and that's it?

What do

you

think of Rask? You started off D2 by voting him. Did you change your mind on him?

Nope, I still think he is scum. I have zero traction right now so anything I do falls on deaf ears.

Did anyone play Dragon Age mafia btw?

I played the actual game, does that count?

So what changed between these posts?

About 500 game posts and Hoopla becoming a legit lynch option. Come IAI, that's just lazy.

[Sotty7]

If I could lynch Rask or MariaR, I'd do it but nobody wants to go there.

You haven't even tried to get a wagon on either of these two today. You've been locked on me pretty much the whole time.

[Sotty7]

By the way. here's why it doesn't make sense for a scumteam not containing Sotty7 to kill TwoFace: TwoFace despite being obvtown barely did anything but tunnel on Sotty7. If Sotty7 was town, TwoFace has been very useful to the scumteam. Killing him over a claimed Mason would have been dumb.

Considering people are still doubting the mason claim today, I don't think it is dumb.

[Sotty7]

GM and sotty are probably scum anyways, but BV and cloud are demotivating, and creature too has some super permanent paranoia of me from that game I didn't even win. When I did sit down and put hours into casing not a single thing happened.

How is BV demotivating?

Cloud I could possibly understand, but BV?

[Sotty7]

With that said, my townread on GM is nowhere near as strong as before. She's more nullish to me now.

Why, what happened for this shift?

[Sotty7]

I did think it was funny how bbt, debatably the best town player on the board, replaces out, flips town via GreyICE lynch, and is never mentioned or read again.

Jaack also had an great day one. He only voted for me and Cloud yet we still won. We'll never know what would have happened if BBT stuck around.

I don't like the set up. It's probably balanced sure, as a scum player I don't like it. Personal preference.

Great scum win by both Maria and Cloud, I'm impressed by both of them. The fact that so many people are saying it was "obvious" what the set up was or whatever, just shows what a great job they did to hide in the town for as long as they did. Cloud had me worried when he vanished end of day one but he turned it around and thought did really well to win this for us in LYLO. Maria was great too, helped me keep my head when it looked like I was crashing out hard on day one.

Enjoyed playing with a lot of this town, Rask and Blackvoid are two people I had never played with before and would love to play with again. Thanks for modding mhsmith, I had a stressful yet enjoyable time!

[Sotty7]

I did think it was funny how bbt, debatably the best town player on the board, replaces out, flips town via GreyICE lynch, and is never mentioned or read again.

Jaack also had an great day one. He only voted for me and Cloud yet we still won. We'll never know what would have happened if BBT stuck around.

I don't like the set up. It's probably balanced sure, as a scum player I don't like it. Personal preference.

Great scum win by both Maria and Cloud, I'm impressed by both of them. The fact that so many people are saying it was "obvious" what the set up was or whatever, just shows what a great job they did to hide in the town for as long as they did. Cloud had me worried when he vanished end of day one but he turned it around and thought did really well to win this for us in LYLO. Maria was great too, helped me keep my head when it looked like I was crashing out hard on day one.

Enjoyed playing with a lot of this town, Rask and Blackvoid are two people I had never played with before and would love to play with again. Thanks for modding mhsmith, I had a stressful yet enjoyable time!