Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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That one I never really got, because my prior two posts were pushing Grendel. I said I liked RVS and said one post was high quality but that was it in 2000 pages.In post 3475, nn30 wrote:@Grendel - on re-read, when you said 'I have the feeling Prism is trying to pocket me' it really pinged me. You are part of why I was able to vote him. So kudos.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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This game, for the record, it the first game where I have been mislynched.
In retrospect I still think that my lynch D3 was a weak choice, and I really should have been able to over throw it. I wish I decide to power through my sinus infection and try and deride my wagon. At the time I think I was focus on going after who I thought was scum was more important then defend myself.
I just kept assuming that it was clear I'm town, and that my wagon should fizzle out. Especially considering that Zoronos was doing jack squat to push my case. His whole case was associative tells, the assumption I'd bus, and that my play style is objectively "bad, and pro-scum". He never built off of that, and when I tied to engaged early in the day he cried AtE. He also spent more time pining outdated scum tells on my responses then caring what I said. It was at that point I recognized that talking to Zoronos would be pretty useless. Lastly, I still stand by what I said that Zoronos's push was personally fueled (ei he convinced himself that I was scum regardless anything I say).
Looking at my wagon:
Nn30provided an in-depth read through where he came to the conclusion that I was a...moderate---weak town read, (I don't recall the spefic point he back tracked from this read, I just remember thinking it was gross and scummy)
It seemed likeDierfireonly voted me for an apparent PoE for the entirety of the day. I thought that was really lazy from my PoV. Plus, I he talked to me like he knew I was town on multiple occasions.
Prismwas scum, yet ironically, was the one to post the most through case on me.
Shadowcompromise hammered.
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There was nothing resembling a smoking gun on me, and none of the town players had what I could comfortably call good reasons to be on my wagon. Did I miss some vital information that made me conf!scum to you all in the thread proper?
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@Nn30thanks though it was appernt in the scum pt that Prism wasn't aiming for that in the least.
@PrismYes, it was mainly that you admonished me for my RQS, and said I made high quality posts. The reason I brought it up was B/C you made no effort to wk me in you D3 posting when I started coming under fire. Well actually I would have brought it up ether way. If you kept patting me on the head I likely would have scum read you, if you voiced reasonable suspicion then it you would have stayed null-town. In any case, I didn't view mentioning me as an after thought to be a "hard push" as you put it.-
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Dierfire Mafia Scum
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@Grendel
You're not wrong! It was a fairly lazy way to work on my part. I was not really an asset to the Town in this game--my apologies.In post 3478, Grendel wrote:It seemed like Dierfire only voted me for an apparent PoE for the entirety of the day. I thought that was really lazy from my PoV.-
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Gamma Emerald AnySurvivorAny
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Dierfire Mafia Scum
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Ha ha, I guess that that depends on what you mean by "safely ignore" here! It's true that most of the time when I'm addressing someone specific I don't really require anyone else to weigh in, but it seems to me that if you wanted to know what I was thinking (in order to read my alignment, correct my mistakes, or be persuaded by my arguments) a good first step would be to read what I write.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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This is the reason I tried to make my posts as succinct and clear as possible, unless I was purposely trying to have it be lost. A lot of the ones I wanted at the forefront still got lost. I have a hard enough time being heard and understood in person.In post 3481, Dierfire wrote:Ha ha, I guess that that depends on what you mean by "safely ignore" here! It's true that most of the time when I'm addressing someone specific I don't really require anyone else to weigh in, but it seems to me that if you wanted to know what I was thinking (in order to read my alignment, correct my mistakes, or be persuaded by my arguments) a good first step would be to read what I write.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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Actually nn30 did present reasons for scum reading me beyond, "I'm sheeping Zoronos B/c he is the best player"Grendel wrote:
Nn30provided an in-depth read through where he came to the conclusion that I was a...moderate---weak town read, (I don't recall the spefic point he back tracked from this read, I just remember thinking it was gross and scummy)
Though the points he raised weren't particularly original regarding LUV associative tells. And that was the crux of his case. :/
Also this:
Was really bad reasoning b/c nn30 was acting like my reads shouldn't change over time. He even says, this is what Grendel said _six_ days later. A lot of things can change in 144 hours.In post 2685, nn30 wrote:This post is regarding Grendel.
First spoiler - this is Grendel explaining why he unvoted me earlier in the day. For the purposes of this exercise I want you to read it and determine, on the basis of this post alone, what Grendel's read on me was at that time: scum, null, or town? Then move onto the second spoiler.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
He's very clearly scum reading me IMO. Does this match the read he had on me from the above spoiler quote, in your opinion?
Spoiler:
Also, if somebody thinks your scum, while saying otherwise. Wouldn't that imply that their scum read on you was genuine?
What motivation would scum have to say, "Sure I think you're town", while their actions toward you indicate otherwise?
If you arguing that scum are inconsistent. You should take note the level of priority the scum had put into this game to keep their plays consistent. Most the time an inconsistent opinion is only applicable to newbie scum, which I am not. Meanwhile town will always struggle with consistency because that isn't something they pay attention to the degree that scum do.
You'd also be arguing that scum would be faking their motivations, which is ahardthing to pull off as scum.
((Like nn30, you took something that could considered a town tell in some circles as scummy))-
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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eagerSnake Mafia Scum
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BlackVoid Mafia Scum
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Since you asked for feedback, if I could make a small constructive suggestion:
The way you asked me and Prism to respond to each other is something that I think could be improved on. Normally, you don't want to ask people to make cases on each other. From my POV, Prism was confirmed scum so anything I say about him at that point would be conf-bias and not a genuine case. Since I'm approaching the case with inside knowledge of alreadyknowingthe answer, it would look a lot like a scum case. What you did (tell us not to defend ourselves) was actually something that would have been more useful because explaining why my slot is town would have been good. In fact, I don't suggest asking people to respond to each other at all. Asking us direct questions and interacting with us would have been much better. I didn't want to talk to confirmed scum. I wanted to talk to you directly so bring up points that you thought were convincing.
Anyways, that's just my perspective. It's debatable whether asking two people to make cases on each other in lylo is a good thing and if that helps you, I suppose you should go for it. But normally I think it won't.-
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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Well you helped get boring, and Luv lynched!In post 3479, Dierfire wrote:@Grendel
You're not wrong! It was a fairly lazy way to work on my part. I was not really an asset to the Town in this game--my apologies.In post 3478, Grendel wrote:It seemed like Dierfire only voted me for an apparent PoE for the entirety of the day. I thought that was really lazy from my PoV.
I wish we worked together more this game tbh. Maybe we would have realized we were both town.-
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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I think that this was my biggest regret this game.In post 2330, Grendel wrote:Consider how much I value meta, do you really think I'd soil my ability to self meta in future by using it as scum?
It was a cheap move on my part. And I would have felt bad later if I got town cred for it.
Getting scum read for what would have been a largely useless bus, (if I was maf), really got under my skin. Being accused for something that I've always been against practicing made me even more aggravated.
I think my biggest weakness as a player is that I don't handle fast, acute, unexpected pressure well. I always have these bad knee jerk reactions that put me in an even worst position then what I started from.-
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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I guess this draught was why Zoronos was using such outdated meta to gauge what was scummy and what was townie?
Really disappointed that Zoronos chose to site flake after being night killed. I legitimately wanted to talk about this game with him. While I think he played poorly this game, I wouldn't say he was a bad player in general. He seemed pretty experienced, competent, etc. If he wasn't so hung up on other's methods of approaching the game he might have done okay here. Or at least not scum read somebody for ignoring his advice on mafia theory lol.-
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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I'm not on the review team, but I feel like it's generally considered likely that both ascetic roles claim early D1, and the simple nature of that claim largely clears each other.In post 3472, podoboq wrote:
Stay tuned for the setup review, where people much more experienced than either of us have this conversation and come to a very different conclusion.In post 3470, Shadow_step wrote:Two of the same roles being town is really really bad though and I didn't expect them in a mini normal. Cause they can lead to back to back mislynches.
Imagine Eager and I both making it to day 3 and neither of us had claimed ascetic. Under l-1 he claims ascetic. I CC him, he flips gown I get lynched next.
*checks review thread, sees that's not what actually was theorized, lol smith*
Honestly, looking at the setup I think the only way scum team has a realistic chance is if the two ascetics mislynch each other, because town has a LOT of power here, and a double ascetic clear turns the mislynch pool into a very small group (even more so since the cop isn't ever going to check the ascetics, which means that cop/deputy only needs to not die or get jk'd). Like, if the cop clears a VT on N1, then unless scum run the table on mislynching all of the vanilla townies, or mislynch a PR (and cop/jk/deputy claims are hard mislynches), they no longer have a path to victory, and that's assuming they only kill PRs and not VTs.
So basically on a fundamental level the whole thing was super swingy as to whether town realized that the ascetics really were ascetics, since two ascetic mislynches makes the game pretty easy for scum, and the ascetics becoming self-confirmed via claim makes the game pretty easy for town.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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And looking at results, waht actually happened was one ascetic got mislynched, and the other didn't. Interesting I guess.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
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eagerSnake Mafia Scum
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Yes. One ascetic claimed at day start. The other ascetic and thought the first one was gambiting scum. He stalked him all day 1 trying to figure out who his partners were and then counter-claimed ascetic half-way through Day 1. The first ascetic advocated they were both town by the nature of his cc. It is exactly right to say "the ascetics being self confirmed via claim makes the game pretty easy for town" as it would have been easy had the second ascetic and a couple others believed in them both being town. Also spot on saying two ascetics mislynches makes it easy for scum as that would have put them nearly in lylo. As it happened, it took all 3 scum on the wagon to finally lynch the first ascetic D1. However the other ascetic who counterclaimed was still pretty much conf town by the nature of his claim so only 1/2 of the ascetics ended up being lynched. Cop investigated a townie N1 and a goon lynched day 2. The cop was then killed n2. Due to a questionable mass claim decision d3, and following a townies lynch, the deputy was rendered irrelevant as they were eliminated n3. The neopolitan was lynched day 4 and the jail keeper was taken out n4. Following a d5 townie lynch and the death of another townie n5, one goon, one townie, and one town ascetic were left in a final lylo situation. After two weeks of deliberation, the ascetic and townie vote to lynch the last goon to win the game. It was a close game that could have easily gone either way-
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podoboq Mafia Scum
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eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"-
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Shadow_step Mafia Scum
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Scum can do all kinds of shit, so not lynching a CC because "lol how can this be so easy?" is WIFOMShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
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Nexus HemissHe
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