Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[GreyICE]

Hi friends. How goes? I saw the player list and replaced in without reading anything else.

[GreyICE]

Don't know black void. Don't care. Pleasure reading his posts. The man is town.

ClownCracker's first post was bollocks. Lie in a game with me and I'll gut you. Whine to me about it in the post game. I'll do it again the next one. The second post where he whined no one was paying attention to him was pretty town. If he gets bigger no one will cry, but not much desire to lynch today.

Goodmorning can be town for her reaction to lynchbait McGee. I dunno. I could say something is off. Could say town... town!

Hoops is town. Can one of you be obvscum and make my job easy?

[GreyICE]

Hi friends. How goes? I saw the player list and replaced in without reading anything else.

Welcome old friend, but your slot is on the ropes. There's no shame in phoning it in if you're scum and hanging out in the dead thread. I'll be there after N1 to come and reminisce about days gone by.

Mislynch me day 1? Hoopla, there ain't a scum on site who could do that. They have to shoot me in the head night 1, thems the rules.

[GreyICE]

IAIs ISO is a teenage wasteland. I'll be caught up soon! Uh huh. Obviously it's bad. Not enough to motivate me to lynch day 1, but an acceptable vig target.

Jack is... a good vote. A really good vote. His posts are just fake feeling and shallow. Like reading from a script.

Maria is town.

I've never played with MichaelSableheart before. We're going to press all each other's buttons. I think he's town though.

Rask is town. Sotty town. Two face town. Victor scum.

Huh I have too many town reads. Unless it is Victor/Jack/IAI. Feels wrong.

[GreyICE]

Hey Jack! Remember Sotty, your top scum read? Have anything to say about anything she's done in... ever? The vote has calcified. It's fucking fossilized. You made the vote top of page 5, and have said shit about it for 20 pages. So if you're that hard tunneled, have you done a damn thing to make us listen to you? I mean besides occasional commentary. She remains bottom of your list, so we know this is intentional.

[GreyICE]

How are you at the point of calling out specific teams 90 minutes after replacing in?

I'm not. Told you it feels like something is off.

How are your reads so bad? Your entire list made me cry.

[GreyICE]

Well I mean besides day 1 Hoopla yadda yadda. But like... sotty scum? Jack null? Why?

[GreyICE]

If I'm wrong about a strong player (and I am) it's probably MichaelSableheart. He says Hokies to explain what he's thinking, and he does. And it's shallow observation. Hmmmmmm... need to think more. Some time tomorrow.

[GreyICE]

Hokies? Autocorrect wtf? Whatever. Sleep time.

[GreyICE]

Well let me get home and off this phone to lay it out further, but for now a simple question: assuming you're aggressive, prickly, and have strong feelings, what do you do when you get widely town read?

[GreyICE]

[GreyICE]

What pressure? I'm not getting lynched today, there's no pressure ^_^

Check out my usual position on the night kill train in previous games, you'd be nuts to do the scum's job for them.

[GreyICE]

What's your proposal to deal with a slot that won't produce anything Victor? Lynch them? Hope they're town? Nah. IAI should be vigged tonight if we have one. Won't waste a lynch on him if have a vig shot.

Hey, you started off RVSing him~

[GreyICE]

Also IAIs first content is to setup speculate. Poorly, since mafia vigs are explicitly non-normal.

We could just lynch him actually.

[GreyICE]

@BlackVoid:

Interesting that you read Biker Wars, and yet are willing to dismiss me so lightly. I'm not here to toot my own horn, but surely you read these posts, right?

Subject: Mini 1834: Biker Wars: Blood in the Streets Mafia PT

Well that was an absolute debacle

Sorry SC. You were going down and I needed that sweet sweet towncred. Also that's town-me's play 10 out of 10 times so... sorry not sorry

Anyway I think we have to kill GreyICE. he's got both of our numbers and he can probably push a lynch.

Subject: Mini 1834: Biker Wars: Blood in the Streets Mafia PT

Yeah, he's really good and will destroy us given the chance.

I agree

So why don't you talk to me? Surely there's something you're curious about. If nothing else, I want the town to win if you mislynch me today, and to do that I need you to understand my reads. Surely just hammering me without even finding out why I think something is a bad idea, right? Yes, I am town reading Hoopla and Sotty. I... think they're both town. I'm decently confident in my ability to read Sotty, since I replaced in there's no way she could be specifically trying to fool me. And Hoopla, I'm much more likely to misread her as scum when she's town than visa versa.

@Jack:

You voted Sotty on the top of page 5, because you thought she had the weakest vote on a wagon. That's a good page 5 reason. We're now on page 28. I haven't seen any evolution of those reads in the past 23 pages, and the Sotty read was:

Of those three I think Sotty is most likely. She had an empty vote, but at the same time added a few weak reads right afterword. Seems like someone who knew their vote was not good, so they decided to put down some content so as to not get blamed for fluff. 86 also shows more self awareness about the quality of her posts.

As for the other two, there's not enough from BBT to make note of pretty much anything, since his only post is the rask vote. I do have a slight scumread on TwoFace though, although it might just be the coin gimmick getting on my nerves. Scumread on Sotty is stronger.

VOTE: Sotty

You understand other things have happened in the past 23 pages, so saying your strongest scumread is still Sotty... I'd expect you to have more than one scumread, and I'd expect your reasons for Sotty scum to have evolved a bit since page 5. So what's happened in your mind since then?

[GreyICE]

Also I'd deeply love to chat with MichaelSableheart. Very much so.

[GreyICE]

Hoopla, Sotty: Why Victor? Here we go.

As a veteran irascible asshole, let me assure you of two things. First, you don't necessarily change because you're scum. Second, being townread is simply a tool to lynch scum. If people town read you they're more willing to listen to you, if they're more willing to listen to you, they're more willing to vote with you. Certainly we none of us think Victor is ambivalent about who gets lynched, yes?

So early on Victor was getting significant pressure. A feud with GoodMorning, several votes, people pushing him, etc. He had to defend himself. Then it tapered off. What did Victor do? He tapered off. It's not like any of his comments were particularly insightful or probing earlier, but after the town read? He didn't try and sell a single person on voting GoodMorning. He just was happy to leave his vote there until the "oh gee, I guess I better join the wagon under duress".

That's supremely weak. You get town read, you use it to smash home wagons on scum. You don't sit there and wank off about it. Even useless prickly people like Furcolow try to push wagons home on people they think are scum (yes, Furcolow was supremely bad at it, but his inevitable detonations were because no one would listen to him). Victor prickles, but then backs down. It's weak as hell.

If you want to talk since then, he's been the most passionate about how we shouldn't shoot IAI. That's funny. He's been on site since 2013, he's very well aware that many extremely strong players have the philosophy that vigs should default to shooting useless lurkers precisely because they have no content and its hard to read them. This is not a controversial opinion or one that is rarely voiced, it's very mainstream, and IAI is the prime candidate of this town under that. The "at least people would have to take a stance" thing is super weird. Does he think that scum wouldn't bus IAI? It's not like he's playing well at all. It just seems an attempt to preserve IAI's life without actually doing much that would commit him one way or the other. It's a very weird stance to take. More interestingly he didn't even argue the scum should shoot Goodmorning. He just wanted it to be not-IAI, he didn't even think of Goodmorning getting shot. That's very, very odd for someone who is so strongly reading her as scum. He's strongly reading her, but he isn't really willing to push her and doesn't even think of having a vig shoot her? That's downright off.

So as to why I'm scum reading him, yes.

[GreyICE]

Interesting that you read Biker Wars, and yet are willing to dismiss me so lightly.

I haven't dismissed you. I think if you are town, it's good for town. If you are scum, it's good for scum. I'm reading your slot as scum.

I'm happy to discuss your reads although it's going to take a lot to change my mind here. Your read on goodmorning is the one I'm most curious about. I have her as likely scum with your slot based on interactions with BBT.

Well you understand that sitting here looking at my town role PM and knowing I'm in BBT's slot, this is hyper strong eye roll material. I mean if you do lynch me today you'd know I'm not lying and then you'd be reading her as town, yes? So if I set aside the "she's scum with confirmed town" line of logic (which is not convincing to me, obviously) then what do we have? Not much.

What we do have is someone who is actively annoyed at being ignored.That's always good. Lets look at her logic:

If there is scum on the wagon

I like that you start by saying "IF" and then somewhere between there and the end of the post it magically changes to "IS" with no real explanation.

And by "I like" I mean "I don't like." Also VCA is dumb ok

That's actually insightful thought, buried under the trolling and silliness.

Come join me on the Victor wagon, everyone! It's becoming better and better by the minute!

She's wagon building, she has a specific lynch candidate in mind and she wants people to join her.

I mean what more do you want. It's not like these are isolated, she has more things I like when I read her. She fucks around but doesn't use it as an excuse to not provide content. She has strong reads and she pushes them. She feels like she's genuinely trying to solve the game. That's not someone I read as scum.

[GreyICE]

@BlackVoid:

So why Victor town? Obviously I disagree, but I'm curious as to your reasons.

[GreyICE]

Oh god no, Rask was hyper obviously town from post 1.

What sort of scum says "folks, I'm changing my playstyle, so deal y'all" and then doesn't even bother to tell you what she's changing her playstyle to or use it to provide excuses or anything? Good god, it would take scum with enormous titanium nads to just run something like that out there with no explanation. Scum always want to explain big things, because they have thought of an explanation to explain why its townie when they post them, and then they want to show off that explanation. She was just like "fuck off with the meta reads meta is fucking stupid and I'm doing something different."

Fucking town as hell, thank you very much.

[GreyICE]

@grey. Once you're done questioning about victor. I actually have a question for you but want to wait until you're done asking about victor

Sure, I'll wait for BV to answer.

[GreyICE]

Grey, I have a question to ask you too. But I want to wait until Twoface asks his question.

Question Queue

• TwoFace
  
• Hoopla

[GreyICE]

@Grey, I think GM's point on Jaack was a good one but that was an exception. It was one of the reasons I was townreading her for earlier. But her reads on BBT and Sotty7 are shifty regardless of your alignment. She started out scumreading BBT, then was okay with a completely boring answer from BBT and then said she prefers the Sotty7 wagon. Detailed version is in 565. By the way, have you caught up? I thought if you were caught up enough to have reads on the entire playerlist, you'd notice my wall on GM.

Victor is explained in 281 and 284. Your case assumes that every town that gets townread uses that to "smash home wagons on scum" which is playstyle-dependent, not alignment. I fully agree with him that IAI shouldn't be vigged. IAI literally mentioned that he had business in NYC, etc during the first week of the game. Interpreting that to mean "lurker" is uncharitable unless you think he's lying about it. Now that he's here and caught up, I assume he'll get engaged and people can get an actual read on him. That's very different from the idea of shooting "useless lurkers."

I'll be honest, I tend to focus on people I'm scum reading harder than I focus on town reads when I've got 700 posts to read. As a result I've probably skimmed a few of your posts. But honestly your reasoning in 565 is weak. "You should focus more on X than Y" is silly. It basically boils down to "in my opinion X is scummier" and unless you think someone is transparently manufacturing reasons to make reads, it's a point so weak it's non-existent (protip: everyone is inconsistent if you squint hard enough. Yes, even you). I mean honestly your entire case is "she's scum with you" which I know factually isn't true. Sooooo... yeah. It's just factually not a thing that is true. If that's it, I can rest assured whatever else happens you're not mislynching her, so I think we're good on this one.

Hey, wanna see something interesting though? This forum has a feature that lets you see all of a user's posts. Here, let me link you: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 0&sr=posts

Tell me more about how IAI didn't have enough time to post on say, October 21st. Or 20th. Or 19th. Yep, he definitely didn't seem to have any time.

[GreyICE]

Well if that isn't a melodramatic ridiculously over the top read greyice I don't know what is
no comment on the rest but who needs to read any further when you can make out a small (nai?) disclaimer to be the rosetta stone

Pffft, those are the best rosetta stones. When someone puts a ton of thought into things they produce something that's really structured and sensible and can be totally non-alignment indicative. Little throwaway comments? Those can be awesome.

I mean it also helps you're like obvtown without that, but yeah, you were town from post 1.

[GreyICE]

Wait what.

No.

Unvote

[GreyICE]

I dunno. I'd like to hear from Michael Sableheart. I kind of feel like you're really town and like I kind of want to lynch Jack too, so I think we're on similar pages.

[GreyICE]

I mean I guess we could karaoke or something.

But we'd probably get lynched for spamming the thread.

[GreyICE]

I mean I guess we could karaoke or something.

But we'd probably get lynched for spamming the thread.

[GreyICE]

So, the more I think about this, GM is probably town. I do like her points on Jaack and I think the emotional push on Victor looked townish which means my scumteam theory is probably wrong. There was also something about the way Jaack was grilling MariaR that gave me townvibes.

Making a note to myself to look at Grey/Rask/Hoopla interactions. All of them are weird and there might be something there. The Rask/Hoopla early game cases on each other + Rask voting Sotty7 after he called her scum with BBT and then defending GreyICE + Hoopla's unvote of an L-1 wagon with intent to hammer. There's something there and I need to figure out if that's the team. That's my new working theory.

Sooooo... all I need is for BV to find 9 scum reads and 3 town reads and I think we've got this game in the bag.

[GreyICE]

F is for friends who do stuff together-Aw fine
Do you want to talk to Michael cause you think he's town or just wanna hear what he's gotta say

Because I genuinely have no read on him. If you pointed a gun at me I'd guess scum. There's just too many contradictions in a bad way. But then he goes and follows up on a point or something and I feel better. But like things like this grate:

I'm very concerned with how other players perceive me, so I make sure to make my thoughts as explicit as I possibly can. That way, players see I'm coming from a town mindset.

Also, looking over goodmorning's ISO, I don't see a lot there that's making me feel good about the slot. Better bandwagon then Rask, IMO.

Vote: goodmorning

REALLY FUCKING EXPLICIT THOUGHTS THERE AMRIGHT? OH NO WAIT ITS TRANSPARENT AS LEAD

I don't think his reasoning is very good, which is a very bad sign from someone who states his goal is to make his reasoning as explicit as possible. I think it's a hard playstyle to do as scum, and I think the alignment non-indicative "this is how I play" and "I lynch all liars" stuff is giving him a town read his posting hasn't earned.

Soooo... I think it's time me and him have an explicit chat. He can bring the reasoning, I'll bring the profanity.

[GreyICE]

I'd like to nominate the post above me as the single most fake post in this thread.

[GreyICE]

I put it in an authenticity detector and it said "Donald Trump's hair"

[GreyICE]

Diary of BV, Day 37: I see a connection between Maria and Goodmorning now. How will we pull this together? If only we could isolate a common factor... aha! Mhsmith0. That man ties the entire plot together. Surely he is the reason that I am alone in this universe, except for my good friends IAI and Victor, who will surely not keep me alive to LyLo while all my scumreads get night killed.

[GreyICE]

I'd like to nominate the post above me as the single most fake post in this thread.

So you don't want to respond to anything else I said?

Sure. Lets see. Hmmm.

- You're stretching!
- You should read!
- You're reaching!

Then you respond by my point that you're not pushing Goodmorning or working with any of the people townreading you to get her lynched by saying "well yeah I'd still lynch her". You know what? I imagine you would.

You want the only response any townie should have?

Vote: Victor

Let's rumble bitch

[GreyICE]

You're a broken record. Stretching! Read more! Stretching! I mean I'm proud you found a thesaurus and discovered reaching was a synonym for stretching but your response sucked. And now you're trying to taunt me.

I seriously wanted sableheart to chat because I don't like some of his stuff, but you're uncomfortable with where you stand. It's predictable, the only things you've really cared about is other people's town reads (getting your own scum reads pushed at all is a distant second) but if you're not going to sit patiently, then I'll cram a wagon down your throat and talk to sableheart too. It'll be multitasking.

[GreyICE]

This has been a good hustle by Grey so far. He's really doing his slot proud, but I'm still not sold on Victor scum, sooooo I'm just gonna chill on the Jack wagon for a while...

You casting shade on me while saying stuff like this is not a good look for you Hoopla.

[GreyICE]

Grey, I have a question to ask you too. But I want to wait until Twoface asks his question.

Question Queue

• TwoFace
  
• Hoopla

What do you make of sotty's attempts to buddy victor? Also thoughta on Sotty doing a list of reads when he left victor off.

I'll read the rest later. Going to go early vote

I think it's a little odd, but I think it's also similar to how you might react if someone was voting a town read of yours. If Sotty is scum, then I'd say it points towards Victor town, since she'd have had to have made a conscious decision to support his towniness, and then left him off her reads list after specifically deciding how to treat her buddy? If it was most other players I'd dismiss the possibility out of hand, but Sotty might think to do that. Regardless, I think that the more likely explanation is the simple one. Sotty is town, she thought of some town reads off her head when she was asked, she didn't think of victor.

As for the buddying... I honestly don't see it. Buddying is like "oh you're such a strong player" only not quite that transparent. She says she thinks Victor is town. I mean that's not exactly buddying, I might think someone is town but think their posts are shit (see: ClownFucker)

[GreyICE]

IAI's fake vigor is as hilarious as it is pathetic. "I run this town!" He's using it to disguise the fact he doesn't want to give any reads. It's fake aggression from a player that's very well aware he has earned a vigging and desperately wants to avoid that.

As for the Michael Sableheart, you're watching my thoughts immediately after I replace in versus my thoughts after I read over more and think about it. But I guess when you have nothing, you have to cling to every little scrap.

[GreyICE]

...

[GreyICE]

IAI's fake vigor is as hilarious as it is pathetic. "I run this town!" He's using it to disguise the fact he doesn't want to give any reads. It's fake aggression from a player that's very well aware he has earned a vigging and desperately wants to avoid that.

As for the Michael Sableheart, you're watching my thoughts immediately after I replace in versus my thoughts after I read over more and think about it. But I guess when you have nothing, you have to cling to every little scrap.

What are you going on about here? Casting shade, lying about my reads (I've got a list with every player!), saying I'm afraid of a vigging yet why would I be since when you flip scum I'll be nearly confirmed with my L-1 vote and hard push to get a seventh vote (see offer made to maria).

So confident he was town to now pushing as possible scum, quite the 180 considering no addl posts. I call scum BS!

Hoopla and cloud please trust me on this one. Maria the day 2 offer still stands if you come over as well too.

I'm not casting shade on you. I'm flat out saying you're scum. You were active on site during the period of your "read up" where you weren't apparently able to follow this game, you've provided little content since your return, even your push on me is shit.

You're a lying scumsack that deserves to be shot in the head or lynched.

[GreyICE]

Wait, you mean to say as you actually started posting things I was able to get a better read on you?

Imagine that.

[GreyICE]

And also:

Sorry all real life craziness til Tuesday. Might have a little time Saturday or Monday to get to this.

Apparently I need to be more specific when LA... :-/

Still on business in NYC...

things should slow down by tomorrow/Tuesday for me to start participating

This seems to be the very specific sort of business where you could be active in one game and yet completely inactive in this one.

[GreyICE]

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Sorry, I don't value my own survival above a scum death.

Obviously I prefer not me to me, but given I've got until Thursday to rally a lynch on someone I think is scum AND I want to talk to Sableheart's replacement even more now, I'm perfectly content with this.

[GreyICE]

Although it does make me ask, why are you trying to pressure me before I've even gotten a chance to talk to Sableheart's replacement?

I've been extraordinarily clear that I want to clear up that slot because its communication, although town-sounding, was extremely lacking in insightful comments, and for someone who said he wanted to overexplain all of his actions his votes were explained pretty thinly. Now that he's replaced out, I'm even more interested.

Are you saying that you have him so firmly town that you're not even curious?

[GreyICE]

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Hey Sotty, a bunch small number of people are attacking me viciously. What does this remind you of?

[GreyICE]

oh ffs quote bug.

Hey Sotty, answer the above question.

[GreyICE]

I'm curious, but not four days from a deadline. That slot is no chance of being lynched. Cut your losses and help the town by improving the chance of someone else being lynched. Of course, if you're scum, go ahead and do whatever you want...

I'm pretty sure my preferred order would be Victor>IAI>Jack.

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

[GreyICE]

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

No matter how good you think your reasons are on Victor and IAI, you don't have the cred to call the shots and rally the town. I'm throwing you an olive branch here; a chance of survival by getting a Jack wagon well and truly going, with an opportunity to improve your image and influence in the game tomorrow. He's your third suspect and it's D1 -- how much better do you

really

think the odds of Victor or IAI being scum over Jack are?

Frankly? I'm a fucking excellent player day 1, while you self-admittedly struggle. Now you can argue "oh you replaced in so you don't have cred". To which I respond you have exactly as much cred as you give me. I think the odds are pretty significant that I'm right here. I know the odds are 100% I'm town here. And frankly, I think you know I'm town as well, you just don't want to admit it.

Sell me on Jack being scum the traditional way. Because right now you're being diet ABR, and full test ABR is shit anyway.

[GreyICE]

Now Hoopla, I'm noticing a contradiction that's irking me a little. Unlike

some

people around here I don't think every contradiction is automatically 100% scummy, but I do think this one is obnoxious enough that I want to directly ask you about it.

I'm not afraid of a hammer. Like I said earlier, I think Grey has earnt his keep. The value he provides if he's town overrides the chance of that slot being scum. When I unvoted and moved onto Jack I sensed a real chance of a rapid wagon happening there, but maybe I misread the situation? Either way, I will compromise soon if nobody wants to lynch Jack and I'll get back on the Grey wagon.

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

No matter how good you think your reasons are on Victor and IAI, you don't have the cred to call the shots and rally the town. I'm throwing you an olive branch here; a chance of survival by getting a Jack wagon well and truly going, with an opportunity to improve your image and influence in the game tomorrow. He's your third suspect and it's D1 -- how much better do you

really

think the odds of Victor or IAI being scum over Jack are?

What's my fucking value to the town if you're not willing to listen to me? It's not like I claimed some fucking awesome power role or something (you have no idea what my role is), you're basing this entirely on the strength of my dayplay. So... how strong is my dayplay if you won't give me any goddamn credit.

[GreyICE]

Finally, I'm not comfortable with the inevitability of a Jaack lynch. Regardless of alignment, Sotty7 and GreyICE have people strongly townreading them or refusing to lynch them. Jaack doesn't have that. He's been fairly low-key, and no one has been willing to bat for him particularly hard. So when deadline comes, people from both camps will likely "compromise" on him when they can't get their first choice lynch. I think he's town and I want to open up that discussion before it's too late.

I'm willing to compromise onto IAI since you townread Victor for some reason (seriously man... why).

See, I'm willing to work with you because you try to talk to me while Hoopla threatens me like a terrorist. There's a lesson there for someone (hint: HOOPLA)

[GreyICE]

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Hey Sotty, a bunch small number of people are attacking me viciously. What does this remind you of?

I don't know what your getting at, but there is a pretty big wagon on you at this point. If you're talking about the nightless game, I have scrubed a lot of that from my memory, but I can go back and read that. If your not talking about that you're going to have to hold my hand.

Oh? You honestly think I'm scum here? I don't give a fuck about BBT, do you think I'm scum?

[GreyICE]

You get a sr and you get a sr YOU ALL GET FUCKING SR'S!

While it's a common misconception, town has to work together. If you plan to play the game on your own you're not playing like town, you're playing like a serial killer.

[GreyICE]

Sadly it's a bad way to win. You'll spend a lot of days not getting shot by scum that way, and you won't be shot by them because you're not a threat to them.

[GreyICE]

Mmmm, okay.

I want you to remember something if you guys do lynch me. You're really bad at this game. I'm confirmed town, and I'm a much better player than you, so sheep my reads.

You need to lynch Victor, IAI, and Hoopla. Those are the three that need to die. I'll be confirmed town tomorrow, and I'm a far better player than any of you, and that's how you guys are going to win.

Sotty, sadly, is town. It turns out she's fucking terrible town, which is sad. She's decent as scum.

[GreyICE]

What's my fucking value to the town if you're not willing to listen to me? It's not like I claimed some fucking awesome power role or something (you have no idea what my role is), you're basing this entirely on the strength of my dayplay. So... how strong is my dayplay if you won't give me any goddamn credit.

Your thoughts have value IF you're town. If we had a full day tomorrow, I'm sure we could talk about anything. You could even interrogate Michel's slot, but now isn't the time. In saying all that, the spirited defenses of Jack put up by TwoFace and BlackVoid, along with your refusal to compromise makes me think that lynch isn't as viable as I thought anyhow and perhaps that window of opportunity has passed, so I'm jumping back on your wagon...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: GreyICE

L-1 again. Someone should declare intent soon...

I don't negotiate with terrorists.

She's putting town to L-1 to threaten me onto Jack's wagon over lynching Victor, when she won't even say that Victor is town or that I'm scum.

Hoopla is scum, and should be lynched.

[GreyICE]

And? If I get lynched I'm confirmed town. Trust me Rask, I'm a better player. Hoopla is trying to see how to play this. She wanted to threaten me into mislynching Jack. She can't, so she's decided to see if she can get my lynch off.

She's definitely scum, this is how scum hoopla thinks.

[GreyICE]

Hi friends. How goes? I saw the player list and replaced in without reading anything else.

Welcome old friend, but your slot is on the ropes. There's no shame in phoning it in if you're scum and hanging out in the dead thread. I'll be there after N1 to come and reminisce about days gone by.

This has been a good hustle by Grey so far. He's really doing his slot proud, but I'm still not sold on Victor scum, sooooo I'm just gonna chill on the Jack wagon for a while...

We can see from minute 1 that she's been discouraging me from posting or giving my thoughts on the game, because she's pretty convinced she has this one tied up.

[GreyICE]

Well you can't do anything. What you can do is lynch Hoopla, IAI, and Victor if I'm dead.

Oh and if you are a vig (and don't say one way or the other), blast hoopla right between the eyes. Her play today has been scum as shit, and she knows I'm town. I needed her to vote me knowing I'm town to confirm it.

Look at her justification for the vote - I won't vote Jack with her. She doesn't even say she thinks I'm flipping scum, she's just trying to narrow the town's options down.

[GreyICE]

The best part? There's nothing she can say to this except double down on her fake read. Because I'm flipping town and she knows it. There's going to be a bright green flip, and all she needs is the town apathy to get there.

[GreyICE]

Yeah. The problem is we have black and cloud. Black is a scum asset, he's just honestly that bad, and cloud... I have no idea. I think he's fucking high as a kite.

If Michael is town (and his last game was scum and he stayed the course, I don't think he replaces out just because he draws scum) then that's basically three townies we're down.

[GreyICE]

thing is GI you're experienced enough that even though I have a lot of bad feelings about this I'm still not entirely sure, and I know I'll feel like a total idiot if I'm in the end wrong

Ok.

Well here's the thing though. Maybe I'm busy bussing my partners. Then lynch me day 3 or something after I've bussed a few. Or lynch me tomorrow if I'm wrong. I could be cop investigated. I could be the cop. Or the tracker.

Lynch me the day before LyLo if I'm still alive out of paranoia. That's fine. But don't lynch me day 1 over that, that's just fucking nonsense. You're not even giving the scum a chance to kill me.

[GreyICE]

I don't get talking to someone like this and then voting them to l-1 a bit later

It's called trying to further the game through compromise. Perhaps you and your crew sitting on the stale Sotty wagon should try it some time.

I don't see any wagon really going off besides Grey like I don't see anything starting at all

Does that not worry you even a little?

Me voting Victor has her worried a little

[GreyICE]

What do you mean, what other options Hoopla? We just had a deadline extension. The mod is still trying to replace someone and you don't even want to hear from the replacement? What the hell.

You're trying to pick the best way to get some level of town cred out of day one while avoiding a scum lynch.

[GreyICE]

Oh FFS black void, scum go all in on lynches all the time. My wife had practically made a reputation on site based around 1v1ing people as scum, and most of them are townies. I do it all the time too when I'm scum. Everyone gives you town credit because "scum wouldn't do that" and you get to avoid commenting on other slots. What you're doing is taking one style of scum play (coasting lurker scum who vaguely support their buddies) and evaluating how well they fit that mold. I'm asking you what the town motivation is for Victor dropping off as soon as he was town read or IAI going from zero to hero once he started taking heat.

You forget, IAI is voting the largest wagon. Would you lynch him tomorrow if I'm lynched today and flip town? Nah, you'd say "he seemed townie but was wrong". That's the sob story tomorrow.

Rask, is never in a million years vote. Lynch me first, I don't care. Rask is 90% town and that's only because Maria is setting a new gold standard for towniest person.

Hoopla... I hate. I've mislynched her, scumread her... she fucking sucks day 1. This is sadly consistent with her level of day 1 play. She hides behind it as scum, but I'm not willing to lynch her day 1 again just because her day 1 play is beyond bad.

MichaelSableheart... we're sitting waiting on a replacement:

I honestly think you're used to one kind of scumplay. MS has seen every possible flavor, your tells aren't going to work here if you apply them formulaically.

Remember: you care about credibility because you want to lynch scum. IAI will throw all his away to avoid scum lynches because as long as town is getting lynched it doesn't matter who.

[GreyICE]

Who's your wife?

LadyLambdadelta

[GreyICE]

Sorry friends, I'll save you time and claim. VT.

If you want to hammer do the decency of letting me do a last read through. If I get QHed, I maintain that it's Victor and IAI. I don't like how Victor wanted to specifically stop me from talking to Sableheart's replacement - obviously I can't talk to him about Sableheart's behavior, but you'd think he'd at least be interested in trying to scumread him, given that he is adamant that slots should produce content:

What's your proposal to deal with a slot that won't produce anything Victor? Lynch them? Hope they're town? Nah. IAI should be vigged tonight if we have one. Won't waste a lynch on him if have a vig shot.

Wait, let the slot produce some sort of content first.
If IAI is vigged N1 and flips town, what information do we get going forward? Compare that to if he lives to Day 2 when even if he doesn't produce content, people will have to take a stance on lynching him or not (which will provide some info after he dies).

Then again, he's probably just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

I'm going to be away for the rest of the evening, will get a chance to look at this tomorrow. Again, if I die, Victor and IAI.

[GreyICE]

Have you considered looking at this from another perspective, like that my D1 play may in fact be quite cool and good... and we just have different values? I like to move around my vote a lot, build wagons and then promote compromise early in the game because too often players won't relinquish ego and create stalemates that last until the eleventh hour and then suddenly any vote can be justified in a scramble. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best/most alignment indicative stuff that happens on D1 happens post-claim, and you'll suddenly see the names in everyone's super solid

"ALRIGHT GUYS, THE SCUMTEAM IS X, Y AND EITHER Z OR J"

type posts change dramatically, and then again even more once we get flips.

You're under the delusion that you can solve the game D1 every game, whereas I value cohesion, compromise and securing an informative lynch that isn't just last minute scrambling. I think this is my best way to help the town instead of fooling myself I am nailing half the scumteam from spurious analysis. You are hyperbolic with the declaration of your reads whereas I value transparency about the strength of one's reads -- mine aren't strong at the moment, so I'm not going to pretend they are.

D1's are probably the main reason why I don't play much mafia any more, because reaching a compromise and organising a lynch on D1 is like pulling teeth, and it's laughable how many D1's follow this script. Arguing over inane shit all Day that gets thrown out the window after claims and flips isn't my modus operandi, and I'm confident the reason why you so frequently read me as scum when I'm town is largely due to playstyle differences. We haven't played together for years and I think I've become more radical in my beliefs (especially my D1 beliefs), and I also think your scummeta of me might be stale. I actually haven't been scum in two years and have no idea how I'd play it, so it beats me how you know my scumgame so well.

I don't know if this is a can of worms I want to open, and don't want to get into a big argument about this. This is just how I play, and hopefully you found something useful from this post either for this game or in the future. If you're town, I'd rather you spent your time doing a final reads post. Maybe try and pander to me and give me a top 2 or 3 in terms of sureness. I'll be more likely to follow your reads if you're honest about their strength and don't try and tell me the team is definitely X and five other players are defs town.

No sorry, this is fucking bullshit. You admit quite freely that your day 1 play is absolute crap, and you have yet to have anything resembling a compelling scumread day 1.

As for reading you as scum, it's the same way I did in the PYP game. You play with a cold logic. It is hard for me to read as town, but when the logical thoughts behind your posts don't add up then you're scum. It's as simple as that. At the moment, I think you read me as town, are aware that your reads are actually garbage, and are selling yourself that the cohesion is worth sacrificing a townie you might be wrong about. Am I scumreading that? Well you're knowingly voting someone you have a town read on. Sorry if it leaves me conflicted.

I'm sad to say I think you believe this. Whether or not that's a town tell... eh, we both know your post is alignment neutral. Suffice to say I believe that the chaos of day 1 is the heart of mafia - divining people's alignment based on their reactions. The power roles and stuff come in later and muddy things up, and I do love the clarity of a good flip (oh how I love it), but the heart is actually reading people.

If you're content to lynch me over Victor, I want you to come back after the game and think about the flips and which was right. Because he's scum and I'm town. So your way of play gets a townie lynch, mine? I'm organizing a wagon on scum. Which one plays to your win condition? At the moment I think mine does.

[GreyICE]

But he's not. I'd put down actual money on it.

[GreyICE]

Yes, that's town paranoia. What reason would scum-BlackVoid have to fake an 11th hour scumread on you when there's no movement to lynch you, no chance of this making anyone take him more seriously and no reason to fake this? He can plant the vote on me easily and just leave. Or pull an IAI and swear up and down I'm scum while leaving an out for him to jump on another wagon and not saying much else. He could always change his mind on a future date.

It's classic town "wait why do I trust this person". I'm not saying I agree, but I recognize where it's from. Victor. IAI. If you must mislynch blackvoid do it after they're dead. Inconsistency is not a scum tell.

[GreyICE]

Sure, go ahead~

But honestly my read is he's town and Victor and IAI are not. I didn't compromise on Jack to try and save my life (even if I didn't love some of his stuff), wouldn't do so here.

But I trust you. Today is frustrating because no one is listening to you. Tomorrow if I get lynched they have no town cred. Take what you deserve and run with it.

[GreyICE]

Oh no, I have last thoughts. But Hoopla has committed, so that's nice. My alignment and Victor's alignment will give you a good guide for reading her in the future.

[GreyICE]

mod: we had one site outage for nearly two days, we had a player slot that didn't post for a week, now we have a player on VLA. Request deadline extension

[GreyICE]

Okay, back, starting my thoughts. Buuuut since this is sticking out at me

Hey Victor:

Assuming I’m right about GreyICE being scum it’s likely all three scum are on my wagon at this point. I think gm is one because she has been scum for a long time. Not sure on the other. I was wondering about Rask until 963 but now I kind think he is town. I think TwoFace is depressingly town because he hasn’t jumped on which would have been the sensible thing to do if he was aligned with GreyICE (in the unlikely event Grey is town though TwoFace is more than likely scum). So it would probably be one of Jaack or Maria. Grey's reluctance to push the Jaack wagon despite the fact he was scumreading him suggests that it's likely to him.

What happened to the all three scum on your wagon since I'm scum? Or have you realized that's not going to fly tomorrow with my townflip?

By the by, Blackvoid, what do you think of this?

[GreyICE]

I'm asking since Sotty and you are practically the only people (at least the only non-IAI people) who are willing to commit to a strong Victor townread, and that entire post was so flaming fucking bad. Please re-evaluate for tomorrow.

[GreyICE]

Yeah sure. The fact I'll flip town has nothing to do with it.

If you guys don't lynch this scumfuck I'll be very sad with y'all.

[GreyICE]

Blackvoid

He's got all my favorite signs of town - paranoia, inquisitiveness, followup. He's communicating well, and he's thinking about things. He has a newbie scum game already, it was classic JAQing off. Not terrible, but he's pretty clearly town here.

I think things like this are just... town. It's natural progression:

Okay but just saying that it's his "town-meta" doesn't help me gauge his alignment or yours. Can you explain in a few sentences what his town-meta is like?

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Feel better with my vote here. I think he's more likely to be scum than Rask for the reasons I gave earlier.

It's not so much process-of-elimination. Just an observation from my experience that early large wagons often tend to be town.

I get the logic there but I think it depends on the context. I can see scum jumping on an early partner-wagon to let it fall apart through paranoia. I can also see scum resisting early an town wagon for the opposite reason.

What do you think about the fact that the Rask-wagon dismantled so easily? Also, do you have a read on BBT?

Maybe he's got me all fooled. Doubt it. I do not see a reason to vote for him.

[GreyICE]

Goodmorning

Look, I said it before, but I'll reiterate. She's fooling around, but there's a lot of solid insight in there. This yells town mentality to me. She's good reasoning, good thinking, and pretty obviously town. See my previous posts.

[GreyICE]

Hoopla

Now we come to one of the thorniest problems. Hoopla. I am convinced she is pretty sure/knows I am town, I am convinced she is voting me anyway despite that. Every one of her posts to me is directed at a townie. And I hate how the wagon with Jack went. "GreyICE, you need to join me, or we won't get a lynch." "GreyICE, Victor isn't happening." "Oh, the game is moving forward, good vote!" "Oh, I'm voting GreyICE over Victor". Look at posts like this:

Grey, you should start scumreading yourself and Jack. I think it might change BlackVoid's mind.

100% directed at town-me.

Posts like these are a huge scumtell:

It's not like we have less than 24 hours or something we have 3 days that's plenty of time to come up with a lynch I think the problem is everyones reads are very spread out
I don't think the jaack wagon is going anywhere today so I['ll go on this one
VOTE: Victor

That's the thing. People always assume we have time and that others will come around to their way of thinking before the end of deadline, which prevents people from compromising.

^Good game-forwarding vote, though

The "Good vote!" but not voting with a person thing is super hyper scum buddying. Soooooo... why might she be town despite her voting for someone she thinks is town, and acting like scum?

There's a form of toxic thought process that goes like this: "anything I'm bad at isn't important". You see it all the time. How many tech guys/computer programmers have you seen whine about all the unnecessary social stuff that happens in the office? They're bad at it = it's not important. How often have you seen people dismiss computers and treat them as meaningless because they're bad at them? Have you ever heard someone put down other majors, complain about needing to write things for science classes, or talking about how math can be done by computers in English? They're engaged in this thinking pattern. "If I can't do it, it must not be important."

Hoopla is terrible at day 1 shit. Has she degraded to the point where she's so trapped in a toxic thought loop that she's effectively playing like scum while as town? Unfortunately her last post brought up that distinct possibility.

Fortunately there's a way for me to check this. Meta dive. Calcified thinking is one of the few things that's meta diveable, because it's impossible to hide. A toxic thought process is terminating to creativity, it won't disguise itself because its incapable of doing so.

Subject: Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

ok, i have RETURNED

i've done a quick read over the pages i've missed and the main concern i have is about the lack of serious wagons that have been generated. a lot of people are posting noise and are not attempting to further the game through their votes, which is bad given we've already used 30% of day 1's allotted time. the most important things that happen on day 1 post-claim, and we NEED time to analyse that/potentially switch and create a counterwagon or whatever else. so start voting people who are realistic wagons.

on this topic, i'm not sure what to think of elyse. initially i had her as quite town before bbmolla decided to conftown himself, and though i still find her zeal for that vote OK and not suspicious, it is concerning that she talks about willing to compromise and search for new targets yet has done nothing in the last 8 pages and STILL hasn't unvoted bbmolla despite acknowledging he isn't going to happen today.

i'm liking the composition of the vedith wagon: bbmolla, cmitc1 and house make for a fairly town trio, so i am going to jump on board given i don't have a town read on vedith.

VOTE: vedith

more to come...

And... sadly this is the same thought-terminating schlock that I see this game. Unsurprisingly Vedith was lynched day 1, unsurprisingly he was town. So I am faced with the possibility that Hoopla has simply become trapped in a toxic loop.

Now if Victor flips scum then you have to re-evaluate, because her Jack->Me slide is definite positioning play from Hoopla, and she just wrote three paragraphs trying to sell me on her being town. That's a lot of work to sell the guy you're voting for on you being town. A whole fucking lot of work for that.

[GreyICE]

IAI

He lurked in this game as long as he was allowed to. While posting in another game. This is an EXTREMELY strong scumtell.

When talk of him getting vigged popped up he ran in to yell "Jack or Grey!" He's now back to lurking.

Fucking burn this shitter to the ground. If you think he's town you just plain suck at the game. Frankly if he somehow flips town I'd look at the people saying he's town before the ones saying he's scum, because the only fucking way you could townread him is if you had a quicktopic he wasn't in. Good. Fucking. God.

[GreyICE]

Jack

Jack is not a very emotionally invested player, and plays extremely logically. This is one of the reason for my early scumreads, because a lot of his observations are just a tad... pat. Like, they're easy to make and don't say much.

Of those three I think Sotty is most likely. She had an empty vote, but at the same time added a few weak reads right afterword. Seems like someone who knew their vote was not good, so they decided to put down some content so as to not get blamed for fluff. 86 also shows more self awareness about the quality of her posts.

See it's overreasoning for the vote, and the reasoning isn't very good.

Jack why do you think talking about dice is risky for scum btw I don't get it

Using dice tags in rvs is the kind of thing that tends to get people on your case, essentially for the reasons michel gave when he voted hoopla. It's sort of like self voting in rvs in that it's liable to get people talking about you early.

I don't think it's a pro-town play, but it rather on the nose for scum.

Similarly if Hoopla is town, this is a very easy observation to make. If she's scum... eh, that's harder. I honestly think based on this post if Jack's scum then Hoopla is assuredly town. But again, it's thin.

I go away for a bit and everyone posts everything. Let's ketchup

If there is scum on the wagon

I like that you start by saying "IF" and then somewhere between there and the end of the post it magically changes to "IS" with no real explanation.

And by "I like" I mean "I don't like." Also VCA is dumb ok

(1)

Just looking for a place to start. While you may disagree with my methods of getting there, I do think my logic for scumreading sotty is solid, which is, you know, why I posted it.

(2)

I think that's all that was directly addressed to me, but for some general thoughts--

(3)

It seems strange to me that there has been as much discussion about BBT with his lack of content, particularly when he is not alone in said lack of content. (particularly I Am Innocent, but also sort of myself and Michel)

(4)

Still comfortable with townreading Hoopla and Rask. BlackVoid seems relatively townie as well.

(5)

I kinda have no clue whats going on with Victor and GM, although Victor's last few rage-y posts do feel a little fake to me.

(6)

I was inclined to townread Cloud for his early trolly play, but the self-awareness and apology-ness of 272 give me pause.

(7)

All in all I'm still rather comfortable with my vote on Sotty for now.

I'd like to go over some things that irk me about this post. The first is

(2)

. What does "posting general thoughts" do here? They don't seem very good. Now lets combine it with

(3)

. He self-consciously calls himself out for doing something scummy in three, which explains the motivation for

(2)

. He wants to add more content so he's not going to get scumread.

(4)

and

(5)

are just fluff, although the fake thing on Victor is either a good catch or something you say as insurance when your buddy flips.

(6)

and

(3)

are just a waste of time other than his own self-scum read. Breaking it down... I wouldn't be sad if he was lynched on the basis of this post alone.

So why am I reluctant? Because some of this stuff is pretty town. Let me give you some examples:

I think cloud is going a bit under the radar as of late. A lot of people seem to be willing to write off his actions as playstyle, but reading through this iso, it seems like he's been trying way to hard to assert himself as an important part of the town while simultaneously acting trolly. I'm not really sure here, but I'm feeling he's scummier than people have been treating him as of late.

Wow that's exactly my thoughts on Cloud.

But in that interim, she does very little to push on that TwoFace vote.

Okay that's just blatantly untrue. I push Twoface hard and we have an extensive back and forth that could have easily became a death tunnel. I am interacting and questioning twoface who starts off answering me and then just really falls back to insulting and taking pot shots at me. I pushed his voting behavior, I asked him for several reads a couple of pages back that he still hasn't provided. What would you consider "pushing a scum read"? Vote them then disappear for several pages and never interacting or questioning them again like you have been doing with me?

Upon further examination, I will concede this. I didn't originally feel as if your discussions with TwoFace were particularly productive and it felt more like you were biding your time until BBT came back and you could focus on him again. On a second read, I don't think you're pushes on TwoFace are as intense as your pushes on BBT, which does give me pause, but it's the smoking gun I considered it before.

As for the shade on me, I get it. I screwed up by being lazy and not participating for a good section of this game. If I get lynched for it that's on me. But that fact that you keep bringing up every time I try and do something now is counterproductive. Well, at least it's detrimental to me trying to contribute. Just because I had a bad start to the game doesn't mean I can't have something to say now.

This is also town as fuck. The "shit or get off the pot" attitude is fucking town. There's a mea culpa, but no apologies. It's like "okay, my early game was shit, but I'm still in the game so I get to fucking play it." Town.

I don't hate anyone! ;-;

I h8 u

Blatant contradiction, confscum

Again, things like this are pretty playful and attention grabbing for scum.

Soooooo............ conflicted? But leaning town.

[GreyICE]

Mod: The forum has decided to double post everything I'm writing. Please delete?

Mod: done

[GreyICE]

MariaR

I find myself having less to say about strong town reads. Engaged, has consistent internal logic, has strong feelings, has... oh fuck it, if she's scum I have a shoe to eat or something. Like whatever. Town town te town town town de town town. Stop fucking scumreading her BV.

[GreyICE]

Michael Sableheart

I explained my issues with someone who 'explains everything' having poor votes. If your philosophy is that it's your duty to explain the hell out of everything you do having unconvincing votes is a strong scumtell, and you'd tend to lean towards bad play over scum play.

The engagement level didn't feel high, and I wasn't enthralled of the lurking. The replace out is pretty null-scum (his last game he was scum and stayed the course, but his playstyle still favors being town).

Creature... no opinions yet.

[GreyICE]

Rask

Now we get another hard one. He started right off the bat with an immediate town read... that he then immediately set in fire and burned by going "lol that's poppycock." Scum have a near compulsive need to point out bad reasoning that shows they're town. Townies don't have nearly the same need, because reasoning that shows they're town by definition looks better to them (it has the draw of being right). I don't know how many scum I've seen go "actually I would do that as scum, lol". It's like... compulsion. I don't think Rask is above it. So we have to look at her without that, because at best she rendered it null.

And...

Mostly though, the post saying she feels her scumread is about to crack under pressure but she changes vote is absurd to me.

I feel like it's fairly obvious from context that I am just teasing goodmorning (she seems like a good kid imo and I might invite her to start a town bloc if/when she proves her innocence to me) -- but really, who could resist such a juicy wagoning opportunity this early in the game?

Okay, if you're town stop talking like this then.

It's vague as to when you're "serious" or not which makes any given action low-commitment. If an opinion is convenient to hold on to, you can later say it was serious. If inconvenient, you can say it wasn't.
But in this case that feels like a stretch. You voted on dice and then said you voted not for it which implied it was at least somewhat serious, as well as what you said about switching. It's almost goes too far really.

Whatever align this has to end. Anyone can realise the issue here; if someone is disingenuous and saying things they don't mean as town, you are not any different from scum being disingenuous and saying things they don't mean. This behaviour from town makes scumhunting difficult so it shouldn't be allowed on principle past RVS (is this still rvs?) unless it's very obvious to be joking, which evidently it was not. And it gives scum an out when people do find a slip up.

It also just annoys me, but that's because I am a uptight bastard who gets bothered seeing people all cheerful-like and having fun... But that's not relevant here.
*ahem*

I want a serious read from you on me as leading wagon, goodmorning (good kid? is that a read or personality?), and whatever else you can offer. Underneath your attitude, I am vaguely familiar with your experience and particularly game knowledge from the setup theory threads, and even if this particular thing hadn't happened, I would want something from you anyways at this point to judge.

Town. Shit like this, telling off a well-positioned town player? Without calling them scum? Fucking town.

Am I in the twilight zone?

You may not like it, but it's already netted us an L-2 wagon so I must be doing something right.

You seem to be taking credit for this wagon which I don't get. Not only that, but justifying your playstyle with it (??).
Even if you assume any early wagon is good as it starts the game, I'm pretty sure your style was not the cause of this at all and that doesn't somehow negate or address my actual, explicitly voiced problems with it.

Me: I have a problem with your play for X Y and Z reasons
Answer: [doesn't respond to points] it got us this l-2 wagon so it must be good!

Will anyone see my problem with this?

If you actually think like this, UGH.

I thought BlackVoid's post illuminating your overly qualifier-y post was good and I like to reward good posts with wagon support.

Okay, we're starting to get into sensible territory.
Do you know what though? I townread black for that post as well. I don't think he is scum who faked that perspective.
The question isn't if you think it's a good post or not, it's if you agree with what's said as something alignment indicative.

If you're town and think playing the game "rewarding" good posts with votes without having your own opinion is a good approach, I don't know what to say. For starting an rvs wagon, okay. It's still earlygame for now.
But if you play like this midgame or later (well you see your honor, I lynched him yesterday to reward a good post) it might be actually be for the best if I'm out of this early.

More followup, good followup.

Paranoia on my slot, again town.

Overall: Town

[GreyICE]

Sotty

And now we reach a hard one again. Not because I'm super conflicted, but because I do think Sotty really deserves that respect.

In this case I see fairly aggressive town play:

Beggars can't be choosers.

Unvote, Vote: Raskolnikov

We see really, REALLY good things:

I'm curious Cloud, how do you kick start games on epicmafia without random voting?

RVS has been here for as long as I have been on this site, or at least as long as I remember. It's changed and migrated over the years, but it is pretty much always fruitful in starting the game from nothing, especially since day starts became more common. It's not perfect but the reason it is still here is because there hasn't really been anything to replace it.

I mean right now we have you and Michel debating playing style over anything that has really happened in the game yet. Strongly held play ideals won't change from a scum to town role, but perhaps how someone enters the game in "RVS" will.

Not this question, that's null.

Happy enough with hoopla's post on Michel to have him as my first town read. Hoopla piggybacks off this with a slight town read as well, even though she probably would point this out as scum or town.

Cloud I have a neutral read since most of his posts have been about playing style but I'm hoping that's just because he is new.

Everyone else is pretty much nothing at this point.

lol funny, i have no idea why youd make a post avec someone null-telling with non-alignement tellings posts about mechanics. Also, whats the difference between ''much nothing at this point'' and ''neutral read'' -> isnt everyone a neutral read by default when you dont have any reads on them

What do you think of this wagon that's popped up?

You're right about the neutral read but I wanted to make more of a mental note when it came to you.

This followup. She doesn't understand how he thinks, so she's poking at it.

>I dont actually know if this is towny or considered anti-town for outing possible soft but, why using the word

Innocent

capitalized over town/townie/sided with the town ? And if this was a soft, wold you make yourself the goal to have interactions with me almost every single you have? like i feel you have 0 actuals reads on me.

Innocent is capitalized because I was talking about a player that is in the game -> "I am Innocent" I don't blame you for missing it that, he's a lurking bum right now.

Reading, interacting, following

LOL woops btw i just townsliped that i cannot be mafia with i am innocent or i am a pro at forum mafia in my first game

Usually when you point out things like this yourself they're less likely to be true than if someone else noticed it themself. Kinda like when people use the argument "I would never do X as scum", when that person has been doing X all game.

I come from a site where its very very hard to townslip on purpose and this was genuine. Its not alignement indicative to point said slip, you can then judge for yourself if you believe it is one or not Mostly scum will disagree, ppl who will 100% buy it are scum pocketing you and the rest is yolo. Seriously most of the users on EM are disgustingly incompetent at mafia so i point out the slips. But i agree with the wifom.. i would never wifom like that as scum
Also, its just a non-team slip and its an obvious one

Someone points out why self meta is bad, you quote them and continue to self meta.

The flirting stuff is gross too

EBWOP: This is all because you can't read her Cloud? The vote suggests you are leaning more scum than anything else. When you say you want a read from her- you want her to read you or the game in general?

MariaR - Have you seen this from Cloud before?

Following, finding consensus...

#ForevernullMaria

Talk to me about your Michel scum read or if it even is one. You have left your vote here for a long time now with little to no pressure, why should we be lynching him?

Maria drops the ball on responding, but Sotty doesn't call it out (even though she legit could) but she keeps asking and sorting...

There's more threads like this. Man, I dunno. If she's scum my respect level goes up for her a notch and it's already very high. I really, really, really would have a hard time believing it.

[GreyICE]

Two Face

Ugh.

I want want want to say town. I want to want to want to. The only thing is if Victor is scum and he's scum then he's painted himself into a corner where he just has to sit and hope I get hammered. Which is... exactly what he's doing, while saying victor is a fine lynch. But man, every bone in my body yells active, engaged town. Town in a deep tunnel though. Err...

Geez. Okay, so what we have here is a lot of things that individually make me say town, while general positioning says its easy to fake being in a tunnel all day. But... he's new to this site, he's in one other game that's ongoing and therefore I couldn't discuss it. But honestly, I think he leans town here.

I dunno. Welcome to me actually going into this wanting to say one thing and just not being able to. I still really feel he's town, but this is not where I thought it would be. I'd put down $20 on town, but not $200.

[GreyICE]

Well there you are. I don't think you need me to tell you I still think Victor is town.

This is my guide to the game. If you do lynch me, remember: multiple people in this game have said I'm a good player. Hoopla has talked me up, Black has read my other games, I have good reads. Am I 100%? No. No one is. Best player on this site was probably old-Glork (pre his semi-retirement) and even he estimated he was in the 50-60% range. Which is fucking phenomenal. But my reads are almost certainly better than yours. I am not saying this out of arrogance, please do not dismiss it. I am a very good player, and these are my reads. You should strongly consider basing night actions and lynches at least partially on what I've said.

[GreyICE]

is scum...

Good god my brain

[GreyICE]

oooookay, enough staring at this site for one day. Peace y'all.

[GreyICE]

Like I actually wrote quite a bit on Sotty. Go read it.

As for IAI you note that scum wouldn't go all-in on me flipping scum. You then you note that you don't think I'll flip scum. So he's not all-in, is he? You're still town reading him for that aggression, even though you don't think I'll flip scum. You still town read him after I flip town? Then why can't that aggression be a scum ploy? 'Cause scum's only goal is to get you to town read him and man, he's done that for some reason.

[GreyICE]

IAI, the effort to save Victor is noble. But you two are tied together, and I will do everything in my power to ensure you're both going down. I know your play has been so bad that you're quite willing to give up your life, but I'm not letting Victor wiggle out when he's obviously scum as well.

I'll give a cookie to anyone who catches the inherent lie in IAI's summary.

[GreyICE]

Also it's now an information flip.

He can't even stick to it anymore. Burn him and his scumfuck friends, folks.

[GreyICE]

FUCKING SERIOUSLY

IS IT FOR ONCE TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT FUCKING MASONS PLAY LIKE TOWN

AND NOT FUCKING LIVE IN A QUICKTOPIC

YOU USELESS SACK OF SHIT.

WHY THE FUCK CANT YOU PLAY LIKE A FUCKING TOWNIE INSTEAD OF LIVING IN ANOTHER THREAD AND POSTING IN THIS ONE RELUCTANTLY. ITS SCUM AS FUCK. GO FUCK YOURSELF AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON.

Vote: IAI

When I get lynched today you fucking sack of shit it is 100% on you and your dumbass mason QT

[GreyICE]

Oh guess I'm hammered. Guess what? Town flip.

Shoot IAI in the face tonight, he's 100% guaranteed not mason anyway.


Victor... go fuck yourself you garbage

[GreyICE]

All the remaining reads stand.

Fucking garbage ass players who live in a QT and expect me not to scumread that.

[GreyICE]

Don't listen to Hoopla, her head is in her ass. Probably a fine lynch, but only after IAI. Go look at IAI apologizing for my town flip. Then lynch his ass if we don't have a vig. Vig, don't let him see tomorrow.

[GreyICE]

If you really can't take being lynched you probably shouldn't be playing mafia Grey.

And now you're taunting me. Is there any town motive for this you piece of shit?

[GreyICE]

No of course not. Victor is a mason, he wants to play as much like scum as possible.

Yeah, rask is still town, even though he's bad.

[GreyICE]

Sotty/hoopla if ice isn't trolling

For fucks sake I'm confirmed town and you ignore my reads?

Sotty is town. Lynch Hoopla, that's fine. But fucking kill IAI.

[GreyICE]

Hey guys, remember this if Victor ever tries to use his "confirmed town" cred. He is playing exactly like scum.

[GreyICE]

Also, Victor, some life advice: you're a bad player and an asshole. Go fuck yourself.

[GreyICE]

Victor, some life advice: being condescending and offering life advice is an asshole thing and you're just a fucking piece of garbage.

[GreyICE]

Victor, some life advice: quit mafia.

[GreyICE]

Victor, some life advice: quit mafia.

[GreyICE]

Lynch IAI you morons. Please

[GreyICE]

You'll get it in a bit, TwoFace.

Yeaaahh, this is how you keep destroying my town read on you.

[GreyICE]

I guess you wouldn't. You don't really seem to care about much this game at all, except your Sotty read of course.

[GreyICE]

You used the tunnel to sit out today. If we are both town (and sadly, Victor probably is, even if he wants to play like bad scum) that's awfully convienent.

[GreyICE]

Hey IAI: you're still scum. Please lynch

[GreyICE]

Well an open setup run as a closed setup is not a good idea, and I feel like this illustrates why. Having an open setup is a town power role. Cloud probably dies without his claim, and that's game.
Of course as I said in the dead thread, Masons v. Mafia comes down to the strength of the Masons vs. the strength of the mafia, with VTs not playing a huge part, and here there was no question the mafia were much better than the masons.

Well played to Sotty and Maria, although I feel like if Victor/IAI weren't scumming it up I'd have had a better shot of catching you.

[GreyICE]

A lot of people dislike the "oh my god I'm so random you can't predict me so don't try" when it turns out you're scum. It's the sort of shit that works exactly once, because no one who plays with you here will ever let you get away with it again, and if that means mislynch so be it.

[GreyICE]

I'm impressed how BV made perfect sense in the mason QT and was scumreading actual scum. Then Lloyd and Harry show up and try to sell you on some townie. It explains why you read as so town but your reads were so unbelievably schizophrenic.

[GreyICE]

Grow up

[GreyICE]

Dude you made like 4 posts. That's always an excellent vig shot. The fact you got butthurt over that didn't make me scummy, it made you butthurt. Nice job losing the game.