inspectorscout's Large Normal Review

[mastin2]

Waiting for current revisions to be given.

When I am not the first reviewer on the scene (i.e., you have discussion about what to change), I have trouble keeping up until I see what the actual changes made from the original are. (My mind's way of processing info makes it difficult to project unless I'm seeing basically the whole thing in one spot.)

In other words: I can see what the original setup is.
I can give comments on the original setup redundant with other reviewers (e.g. black mafia as posted there are strong in comparison to white mafia), but these are going to be obsolete if they don't reflect what the CURRENT setup is and I'm not sure what the CURRENT setup is.

[mastin2]

I suppose I can give a general comment though.

Inherent in multiball is swing.

It is literally impossible to get rid of swing in a multiball game. In fact, it's not even possible to reduce swing to a low level. Multiball, by its very nature, invites imbalancing the game by the slightest alteration of the gamestate, tipping the game one direction because there are simply too many variables in play. No matter the numbers, no matter how good we can get the game to be balance-wise in theory, you will never get a perfectly-balanced game.

The best we can do with multiball is get an approximation of theoretically giving each faction an equal chance. The original setup placed black mafia at a huge disadvantage. I would also agree that the town there had too much power.

In a multiball game, the town's going to need more than singleball, because town are going to be dieing on average twice as much, and PRs are going to die even MORE often than normal. They will also be exposed much easier--one key aspect of multiball is that it tends to have MUCH more large wagons form on players because

both

scum factions think they are voting the other when they're really voting...a town power role, who thanks to the large wagon is going to be forced to claim and therefore likely die.

So yes, town needs comparatively more power than normal, especially when the game's this small with two different scum factions--six scum is a LOT for an 18-player game, even divided in half. However,

even given that

, the originally-posted amount was a bit much for the town. VTs should still make up at least half of the town's numbers in a Normal game, on average. So, the town should lose at least one if not two PRs overall, and then from there reassess what PRs they have to see what their strength is versus the scum.

[mastin2]

Multiball, in general, has fallen out of favor in the site meta as a whole (especially in Normals), but we as reviewers--at least in a Large--will not discourage moderators from running the game. It's just that fewer multiball games are being run than there were a few years ago. I wouldn't be able to tell you why, because that's more of a moderator thing than player thing, just less interest in running them I suppose. So, there's nothing keeping you from running a multiball game. Especially not one which is openly multiball; people going in who know what they are getting in to are far less likely to bitch and moan. (But, because balancing multiball perfectly is impossible, they'll still bitch and moan anyway. Just...they'll do so less if they knew the game was multiball.)

So basically, you're free to run a multiball game. It's just that while we as reviewers can give you a setup which is theoretically balanced, we cannot give you a setup which is low on swing because multiball has swing INHERENT in it: a faction can and probably will be fucked over purely by bad luck, and there's NOTHING we as reviewers can do to stop that because there's no multiball setup in the world which can stop that. (Not even opens. Open multiballs are fun and a blast, but they're still swingy and can have the winner determined as early as N1.)

If you're fine accepting that multiball is swingy by nature, then we're fine as reviewers in reviewing multiball. So, we won't discourage you. I just don't want you to go into the game and be blindsided by the demands of a multiball game.

[mastin2]

It's not looked down on to my knowledge.
It's just uncommon.

[mastin2]

While the idea of two of a faction being in a neighborhood is cute and all, pragmatically, it won't work the way you expect--when players see one white mafiate flip, they'll expect a BLACK mafiate in the neighborhood ("3-man neighborhood? Easy peasy, one of each faction!"), so the white mafiate you have in there which is meant to be confirmed will instead end up being lynched for the wrong reasons.

For that reason alone, setup still favors the black.

[mastin2]

Then you haven't been in many multiball neighborhoods.

I have.

When one white scum player flips, the thought will NOT be "oh the other two must be town".
It will be "oh there must be one town and one black".

I 100%, absolutely,

guarantee

you of that fact.

[mastin2]

It shouldn't matter, but it does, especially if the mod's balanced the white team by relying on the neighborhood granting them strength when it doesn't, thus...leaving black...still stronger than white.

[mastin2]

Honestly I'd drop the neighborhood entirely. White mafia being in a neighborhood, when black mafia have a neighborizer, is something that would not take long to figure out.
Instead, I'd give them a 1-shot rolestopper. It's of comparable strength to the 1x BP: maybe a bit stronger, maybe a bit weaker. (Depends on usage, honestly.) That gives each faction a role offering protection. White mafia have an investigative, and black mafia have a role which is a good general-purpose role, both serving to synchronize with the town and potentially pick up on their PRs. The town's PT cop gives them their strength as well, and yet the PT cop can only get a few useful results which diminish as the neighborizer uses their power.

The game would have each faction have approximately equal influence over the game that way.

Of course, there could be ways to keep the neighborhood if you REALLY wanted to, but the simplest and easiest setup I'd call balanced would be the above, without it.

[mastin2]

Rolestopper works more defensively in the same vein as a bulletproof would. Roleblocker works more offensively. A 1x roleblocker is also something the scumteam is more likely to waste than a 1x rolestopper, but you're correct, it's a viable alternative. The reasons I just gave are why I suggested the rolestopper though.

[mastin2]

The only thing I'd question is having the slight inconsistency between the town doctor (blocks ALL kills, meaning their target still lives if all three of vig/mafia kill them) and the 1x Bulletproof (blocks only the first kill, meaning if targeted by the vig and the other mafia the same night they'll still die). However, I this is not something I'd consider a big deal and I'd pass it as-is, though I thought I'd raise awareness of it.

Also, interactions need to be defined: as unlikely as it'd be, what happens if the rolestopper targets the 1x BP while the 1x BP still has their vest, and the 1x BP is nightkilled? Is the vest used up, or does the rolestop trump the bulletproof vest? Same question for the doctor: does the doctor trump the bulletproof, or does the bulletproof get used up and the doctor only apply when needed?

If you can provide an answer for those interactions, I think you should be good.

[mastin2]

My approval was already implicit once you gave your clarifications--that was all I needed to see, and I'm satisfied with your answers. I'll take responsibility for anything missed and say that I, too, am passing it.

[mastin2]

mastin do you know what is normally applied first? Doc or Vest?

I can't speak objectively there. My personal bias is to apply the doctor first, but some might disagree. I BELIEVE it's up to the moderator, that the NRG hasn't set in stone a hardfast "this interaction MUST be done in THIS way", so in this case I'm deferring to the judgment of the moderator, inspectorscout.

[mastin2]

Should be!