OPEN 663: STACK THE DECK (GAME OVER)

[Kop]

VOTE: Superhans

Can't spell hiya.

[Kop]

Dude I'm L1 b careful

Order 66 is to impose ultimate peace upon the galaxy by extinguishing the cult-like religious extremists that threaten our Empire.

Your not?

[Kop]

I counted L-3.

[Kop]

@Dunnstral,
Why are you voting Gamma?
Would you want to convince other players to do the same?

He's not engaging in anything while being here, very odd for him.


MARIA is also trying to be as scummy as possible it would seem

I can get behind a pressure wagon.
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I don't like this vote, I don't have any issues pressuring a slot, but this vote here stinks. The whole manner of it, and how it's come about is wrong.

We have 12 days left. No need to rush a lynch.

Whist I agree with this sentiment, but at the time it doesn't look like anyone is actually pushing through with the lynch. They are pressuring, not lynching.

This is reeking of trying to look town and have town intentions. I don't like it.

[Kop]

Yeah, Realeo's last few posts, all the faux-VI ones, seem like they would come from a place of scum.

VOTE: Realeo

Enlighten me. The faux-VI supposed to be a NAI.

I take it as you saying that you are not going to play the tactic of being VI and attempt to play to your fullest so we shouldn't lynch you because you are going to play pro-town. That is something a scum would do to let everyone know they were "town" and to look else where. Its a failsafe to fall back on and shed votes at L-2 or L-1. "Hey, look, i said i was pro-town, give me a chance".

This is throwing shade.

[Kop]

I don't want to lynch Realeo

I want to lynch realeo. He's used doctor and cop emojis already, I think he's trying to setup fakeclaim crumbs and needs rope

also if maf didn't recruit the traitor he could be making obvious PR crumbs to try to get his team to shoot him and recruit him if he's the traitor

These are baseless accusations. They hold no truth or any argument that can hold any water, using them emojis doesn't exactly have a warrant to lynch him, based on that.

As for your second point, that's wrong. If I'm recalling correctly, if they shoot the traitor, he dies. I once had the traitor role and mafia shot me, and I died. I didn't join them.

I'd choose to push a lynch between you, or Superhans right now.

[Kop]

Yeah, Realeo's last few posts, all the faux-VI ones, seem like they would come from a place of scum.

VOTE: Realeo

Enlighten me. The faux-VI supposed to be a NAI.

I take it as you saying that you are not going to play the tactic of being VI and attempt to play to your fullest so we shouldn't lynch you because you are going to play pro-town. That is something a scum would do to let everyone know they were "town" and to look else where. Its a failsafe to fall back on and shed votes at L-2 or L-1. "Hey, look, i said i was pro-town, give me a chance".

This is throwing shade.

Ok. Enlighten me.

You explained yourself regarding the VI, but SAJ decides to throw shade on the whole thing by saying you could be using that as a excuse to look like your playing pro town. It's discrediting what you have said, and throwing shade by keeping the focus, purely on that.

Like myself, I've seen what you have had to say, and I don't discredit it to a point where I'd be pushing you, based on that. I'd rather focus my energy and thoughts onto other meaningful matters that need attention.

[Kop]

@Realeo i didnt say you are shedding attention now, i said IN THE FUTURE, you could use the arguement about pro-town/anti-vi to shed votes. I read you as scum, yes, but a competent scum.

He could do that, but if he acts scummy enough to look scum, he will be lynched on that. Not what he claims of being a VI.

If he brings on the attention onto himself that warrants lynching for, he will have to use something else to show that he has town intentions and is actually town, than quoting something he used early game.

[Kop]

Alright, ill drop it but if he is scum just remember i told you.

What are your reads up to now?

[Kop]

Hey

Don't let this fool crumb multiple roles

He can't fool crumb doc role considering there is no doctor in this setup, or at least doesn't mention doctor being in this setup.

[Kop]

mafia traitor is bulletproof btw so they wouldn't even die

I didn't realise it's BP until I looked at the setup specs. It's one shot though, but obviously that doesn't mean anything, just means scum won't shoot that slot again.

[Kop]

Bodyguard is close enough to doctor that that's what I'd take it as, by the way

I agree, but I don't see any point crumbing it. It would be plain stupid for someone to be brazen enough to stand up and shout hey I'm a cop, or I'm a doctor/bodyguard.

And if he is stupid enough to do it, then well I'd not be lynching him based on that, the game will dictate what will happen if there was any truth in it.

Which I don't believe there is.

[Kop]

Crumbing roles are something I expect scum to do more then town but it really is NAI unless it's leading up to someone being under pressure.

I haven't seen scum crumb roles, I've seen it more from town, but mostly masons, and investigative roles something they can go back too and back up there claim. However, it's not blatantly obvious.

[Kop]

VOTE: Gamma

I can get behind this. His ISO is nothing but filler posts, with only a tiny part of it looking like he is doing something.

That vote is nothing, but RVS, but that ship sailed a while ago. It struck me as a "Hey i'm still here" post.

Gamma, reads please.

[Kop]

Question to the veterans:
Do town players substitute out at a greater rate than scum players, or is it usually the same rate?
I'm just curious.

It's NAI to myself personally.

[Kop]

UNVOTE: Gamma

[Kop]

What's vague about it?

The fact that you haven't specifically said, what this bounce that makes you town read him, is?

It's only logical to townread people who lynched scum

Anyone who lynches scum will be town read, if the whole leading up to, shows that it's town lynching scum, rather than strong confidence that one is going to flip scum, i.e bussing.

@Gamma

1. RQS sucks because answers are easily manipulated and tailored to players
2. Dunn didn't look concerned with his 'wagon' at all. I wouldn't even call it a wagon
3. If it's TB's playstyle then he can easily incorporate it in his scumplay, especially that he's been encouraged by people being thankful. It's nai at best but I still don't like it
4. If I was going for a low hanging fruit, I would've just jumped on your wagon

Pedit this is a towny reaction. People should unvote gamma

1). I understand your point how it's easily manipulated, but some people have different playstyles early game. Some prefer RVS, some prefer RQS. It's NAI to me personally.
3). I'm sure this comment has been brought up on another player, oh yes, it was Realeo. WIFOM shite again.
4). You know for a fact that if you had gone for Gamma, you'd look scummy coming in straight away and jumping on that wagon.

I'm tunnelling you cause I'm a daycop with a guilty on you

I normally laugh this off, but you've managed to get a few reactions, even though it actually shouldn't.

I'm tunnelling you cause I'm a daycop with a guilty on you

Daycops are impossible in this setup. If you're looking to get a reaction out of me, you're not getting one. Sorry!

Unfortunately, he seemed to get one from you. You can't deny that he did, because you wouldn't have quoted him, to put him right.

@Desperado - Yeah, looked like really bad reasoning to me which is why I'm asking him questions. Didn't see anything specific about Thinkbig that would have made AH pick him off the Gamma wagon which makes me think his motivation there was to derail the Gamma wagon, rather than to find scum on it. I guess your vote makes sense, and I was going to vote AH when I read his TB case and looked into the votes on Gamma, but then I saw you vote AH and that steadies my hand a bit because your vote was naked and had just swapped from the leading (but losing traction) Gamma wagon onto the rapidly growing AH wagon. Anyways, as I write this post I realize there's better reason to vote for him being scummy than there is to not vote him because his wagon is moving fast.

VOTE: Antihuman

What made you change from gamma to AH? Have you gone off Realeo?

[Kop]

AH what's your opinion on Gamma's vote on Desperado, and Desperado's sudden swap from voting Gamma to you?

Desperado, you switched from voting Gamma to voting the player defending Gamma pretty abruptly, can you further explain both of those votes because right now it looks like you're getting onto easy wagons

VOTE: Desperado

@Desperado - Yeah, looked like really bad reasoning to me which is why I'm asking him questions. Didn't see anything specific about Thinkbig that would have made AH pick him off the Gamma wagon which makes me think his motivation there was to derail the Gamma wagon, rather than to find scum on it. I guess your vote makes sense, and I was going to vote AH when I read his TB case and looked into the votes on Gamma, but then I saw you vote AH and that steadies my hand a bit because your vote was naked and had just swapped from the leading (but losing traction) Gamma wagon onto the rapidly growing AH wagon. Anyways, as I write this post I realize there's better reason to vote for him being scummy than there is to not vote him because his wagon is moving fast.

VOTE: Antihuman

Why does Desperados vote steady your hand because it was naked?

You mentioned before about getting onto easy wagons, haven't you done the same?

[Kop]

He said scum theater?

He said scum theatre is a possibility. He never said that those 3 are as certain as you are implying it.

[Kop]

Kop - Town
Genuinely evaluating game

Enlight me. I must be missing big time.

State your reasons because that's twice now that you have said something regarding myself, and twice you've not even bothered to state any reason why, or even engage with me.

[Kop]

@Desperado: AH was and still is my biggest SR. the reason I switched my vote was to provide pressure for dunnestral. He hasn't really been contributing and buddies in an anti-town kind of way. Thus my vote is for pressure. I'll certainly switch my vote back at a later time. This is simply my play style.

P-edit: Accusations and analysis of buddying and budding is best done after a flip. That is just my opinion. One doesn't necessarily follow the other.

Voting ThinkBig mainly for being on, and creating the AntiHuman wagon.

In post 371, grapes wrote:
Antihuman ( 4 ) - (Gamma Emerald, ThinkBig, Desperado, ssbm_Kyouko) <The AntiHuman wagon. You've unvoted and placed vote on Dunnstral, but you're claiming that you're very much still ON this wagon, if you get what I mean.

No, I don't get what you mean. When did I claim I was still on his wagon after voting for dunnestral?

See the quote above. You didn't specifically say you were still on his wagon, but you were happy to go back there at a later date.

That in my eyes is you happy enough to go from a wagon that you are attempting to create that isn't going anywhere, to Antihuman. It's good as being on it.

[Kop]

Or better way of phrasing question:
if AH IS scum, who would you guess could be his scum partner,
if TB IS scum, who would you guess could be his scum partner,
if Both turn out to be town, who would you guess could be scum?

Then it would be time to reevaluate the game. And look at the bigger picture because if both flip town, we're down on numbers greatly.

Myself I'd rather a flip of either one that gives us the most information. And if one flips scum, we can then try work out his partners. Right now trying to work out partners on what if's is just WIFOM and stupid.

[Kop]

AH what's your opinion on Gamma's vote on Desperado, and Desperado's sudden swap from voting Gamma to you?

Gamma voted Desperado, if Gamma is scum he wouldn't start the cw on his partner
Desperado swapped to Antihuman, might make sesnse

if

Gamma is scum, AH is town, and Desp is traitor.
AH wagon would also be cw to scum in this case.
Question is: Does Gamma have any plausible scumbuddies besides AH? Desperado is out unless he's traitor, so we'd need 1 more (or 2 if he's not the traitor).
Let's assume scum aren't going to hard bus their teammate in the middle of D1, so we look for a partner that wasn't on the Gamma wagon at it's apex

DAY 1 VC 005

Gamma Emerald ( 5 ) -

(Superhans, ThinkBig, Realeo, Desperado, Kop)

Realeo ( 3 ) -

(ssbm_Kyouko, algebra, Secret Agent Jin)

Desperado ( 2 ) -

(ReubenWasFine, Gamma Emerald)

Secret Agent Jin ( 1 ) -

(davesaz)

Not Voting ( 1 ) -

(Dunnstral)

Seven to lynch.
(expired on 2017-01-05 01:30:02) remain until deadline.

Seeking a replacement for ReubenWasFine.

Kyouko - conftown to myself
algebra - conftown
RWF/AH - We're assuming this slot is the town cw to scum for this exercise

SAJ/Alisae - was not on the Gamma wagon but when he comes in he discredits AH case and soon after Gamma joins him in picking apart AH case to start a new wagon on AH. Replaces out. Alisae Says he doesn't like TB but soon after catching up a bit more says he doesn't like AH's push and votes AH. AH could be the counter to Gamma if Alisae and Gamma are buds
davesaz - Comes in to catch up to a 5 person Gamma wagon with a very flat reaction. Possibly measured response to scumpartner's wagon. His next post looks at the gamma wagon for opportunistic votes, says he's still catching up but points to Realeo and Desperado as being similar to Gamma, as if to offer them as alternatives. Dave speculates Gamma is the cw to scum!Desperado. HOWEVER, Dave in 374 has a similar reaction to the popup of AH's wagon, indicating to me he is unaware of either wagon's alignment, unless the team is Gamma/dave/AH
Dunnstral - No reaction to the gamma wagon, is still focusing on her own SR of davesaz. Reads as towny to me.


I'm thinking AH is not very likely to flip scum unless he's teamed with davesaz

and

Gamma. Desperado I think is unlikely to be traitor based on the way he got onto the Gamma wagon.
This leaves me with a scumteam speculation of [Gamma, davesaz, Alisae/AH]. Kop could be blind spot scum still. I think Gamma's flip will be most telling because it was both the cw Realeo/Desperado and had it's own cw in the AH wagon.

VOTE: Gamma

Kop do you have scumreads? Noticed a lot of you asking other people about their reads in your ISO and a lot of commenting on questions directed at other players but not much in the way of substance

My reads change all the time as the game progresses on. I don't do scum reads on day one usually, I see the information in posts, and generally push wagons, etc. I work better when there's been flips and I have information that can back my thoughts up.

Right at this point, a lynch on either AH or TB is only going to be beneficial right now because the limelight for the past 10 or so pages with a few random ones thrown in between has been on those 2. Either one is going to give information and isn't going to be one of those policy lynches that isn't going to lead to anywhere.

When it comes to day 2 however, I'd like pressure to be placed on Gamma because I am not seeing a style that I am accustomed to. And I just feel that he is happily going under the radar whilst the war goes on, and If we do lynch AH and he flips scum, then a great deal in me is going to want Gamma lynched. If AH flips town however, that isn't going to stop me wanting pressure on Gamma, I didn't say lynch but I'd like the pressure to get him to talk.

[Kop]

Really don't like AH linking Alisae and ThinkBig like he is. AH-ThinkBig team gaining steam.

Hmm you think ThinkBig would be trying to push his scum partner into a lynch, just to gain town cred? Seems implausible to me.

There's not much point to discussing it in detail at this point but yes, I think AH would replace in as scum and post a BS case on a partner, especially when he's now claiming it wasn't legit to begin with. And I think ThinkBig and AH could see that they might become competing wagons as a result and ramped up the bussing.

This is WIFOM'd to shit.

[Kop]

We will learn information in either AH or TB right now.

We have our suspects that could be scum, but right now it'll be a uphill battle to get them lynched or build a case for them to answer too.

So right at this minute, either AH or TB, then go from there.

[Kop]

DAY 1 VC 009

Antihuman ( 5 ) -

(Gamma Emerald, Desperado, ssbm_Kyouko, ThinkBig, Alisae)

ThinkBig ( 3 ) -

(Antihuman, Superhans, Realeo)

Desperado ( 2 ) -

(Dunnstral, davesaz)

Realeo ( 1 ) -

(algebra)

Not Voting ( 1 ) -

(Kop)

Seven to lynch.
(expired on 2017-01-05 01:30:02) remain until deadline.

Prodding Kop and Gamma Emerald.
Let me know if the VC is incorrect for some reason.

No deadline extension.

Desperado could be another good shout for a lynch, but I don't think we'd get the votes in the 12 hours remaining. I wouldn't like to chase down that avenue on account of getting the votes required, and everyone aggreeing.

Voting TB which is what I was hoping to go down, but again, are we going to get the 4 votes and 4 agreed votes in time? I don't want to end this day on a no lynch.

[Kop]

I mean to TB sleepy

I don't feel his reaction was genuine and how he tried to divert someone else.

[Kop]

VOTE: antihuman

[Kop]

VOTE: Gamma

AH flipping traitor has put the onus back into Gamma for me. He's derailed that wagon to divert pressure

[Kop]

Algebra is on point with his shit.

Also AH's push on TB is making me think that it's scum theatre.

Hmm

If you think that (the first part) then don't you think scum could have easily killed Algebra? Him being IC and all, him dying wouldn't necessarily put suspicion on realeo. Whereas algebra may vote realeo again. What are your thoughts on that?

With a very obvious NK? I think it puts a lot of sus on Realeo. NKA + VCA.

I don’t think that Algebra is much of a risk for scum for the night one kill personally. He only voted for Realeo early on and never really veered away from that point. Yes he may be the innocent child, but right now, Scum would rather take out potential threats that could work them out, leaving the innocent child till a later day when numbers dictate that.

AH what's your opinion on Gamma's vote on Desperado, and Desperado's sudden swap from voting Gamma to you?

Gamma voted Desperado, if Gamma is scum he wouldn't start the cw on his partner
Desperado swapped to Antihuman, might make sesnse

if

Gamma is scum, AH is town, and Desp is traitor.
AH wagon would also be cw to scum in this case.
Question is: Does Gamma have any plausible scumbuddies besides AH? Desperado is out unless he's traitor, so we'd need 1 more (or 2 if he's not the traitor).
Let's assume scum aren't going to hard bus their teammate in the middle of D1, so we look for a partner that wasn't on the Gamma wagon at it's apex

DAY 1 VC 005

Gamma Emerald ( 5 ) -

(Superhans, ThinkBig, Realeo, Desperado, Kop)

Realeo ( 3 ) -

(ssbm_Kyouko, algebra, Secret Agent Jin)

Desperado ( 2 ) -

(ReubenWasFine, Gamma Emerald)

Secret Agent Jin ( 1 ) -

(davesaz)

Not Voting ( 1 ) -

(Dunnstral)

Seven to lynch.
(expired on 2017-01-05 01:30:02) remain until deadline.

Seeking a replacement for ReubenWasFine.

Kyouko - conftown to myself
algebra - conftown
RWF/AH - We're assuming this slot is the town cw to scum for this exercise

SAJ/Alisae - was not on the Gamma wagon but when he comes in he discredits AH case and soon after Gamma joins him in picking apart AH case to start a new wagon on AH. Replaces out. Alisae Says he doesn't like TB but soon after catching up a bit more says he doesn't like AH's push and votes AH. AH could be the counter to Gamma if Alisae and Gamma are buds
davesaz - Comes in to catch up to a 5 person Gamma wagon with a very flat reaction. Possibly measured response to scumpartner's wagon. His next post looks at the gamma wagon for opportunistic votes, says he's still catching up but points to Realeo and Desperado as being similar to Gamma, as if to offer them as alternatives. Dave speculates Gamma is the cw to scum!Desperado. HOWEVER, Dave in 374 has a similar reaction to the popup of AH's wagon, indicating to me he is unaware of either wagon's alignment, unless the team is Gamma/dave/AH
Dunnstral - No reaction to the gamma wagon, is still focusing on her own SR of davesaz. Reads as towny to me.


I'm thinking AH is not very likely to flip scum unless he's teamed with davesaz

and

Gamma. Desperado I think is unlikely to be traitor based on the way he got onto the Gamma wagon.
This leaves me with a scumteam speculation of [Gamma, davesaz, Alisae/AH]. Kop could be blind spot scum still. I think Gamma's flip will be most telling because it was both the cw Realeo/Desperado and had it's own cw in the AH wagon.

VOTE: Gamma

Kop do you have scumreads? Noticed a lot of you asking other people about their reads in your ISO and a lot of commenting on questions directed at other players but not much in the way of substance

My reads change all the time as the game progresses on. I don't do scum reads on day one usually, I see the information in posts, and generally push wagons, etc. I work better when there's been flips and I have information that can back my thoughts up.

Right at this point, a lynch on either AH or TB is only going to be beneficial right now because the limelight for the past 10 or so pages with a few random ones thrown in between has been on those 2. Either one is going to give information and isn't going to be one of those policy lynches that isn't going to lead to anywhere.

When it comes to day 2 however, I'd like pressure to be placed on Gamma because I am not seeing a style that I am accustomed to. And I just feel that he is happily going under the radar whilst the war goes on, and If we do lynch AH and he flips scum, then a great deal in me is going to want Gamma lynched. If AH flips town however, that isn't going to stop me wanting pressure on Gamma, I didn't say lynch but I'd like the pressure to get him to talk.

Can you give us scum reads day 2?

Also y do u think scum nk'd you?

Nk’d me?

Right now, my scum reads are Gamma, because of the nature of the nightkill, and I don’t like how AH came into derail the wagon that was on him (Gamma) and the defence that Gamma made towards TB against AH could spell buddying.

were to be a Statue of Limitations, people would have forgotten that Algebra voted Realeo super early.
Algebra was the main person that was putting pressure on Realeo.
So NKA would make the NK directed to him really obviou

That only explains that I

can

be mafia. That does NOT explain that I

am

mafia.

This is explaining why an Alegbra NK would lead to you. Not my actual case on you.

Can anyone give me a psychological lecture about Mafia Traitor at me? Is it more normal for Mafia Traitor to be more diplomatic against town or mafia partner?

So this catch my attention....

No need for useless speculation, I will flip town and TB will flip scum. Feel free to hammer.

So AntiHuman plays the AtE card at L-1. The wagon at the L-1 was.

Antihuman ( 6 ) -

(Gamma Emerald, Desperado, ssbm_Kyouko, ThinkBig, Alisae, SuperHans)[/color]

I find it strange. AntiHuman has made a play (in my opinion) an excellent analysis (he fooled me) and push with confidence.

Why the sudden mood change from confindence to surrenderness?

I think he surrender because his scum partner is voting against him. As a mafia traitor, judging by psychological analysis, being a mafia traitor is a lonely role. Being foresaken by his partner is a lonely game.

So there are 6 people. To a certain degree.. TB is town. ssbm flipped town.

There is a minimum of 1 scum in (Gamma Emerald, Desperado, Alisae, SuperHans)

Shit attempt to jump on somone for a NK.

VOTE: Gamma

AH flipping traitor has put the onus back into Gamma for me. He's derailed that wagon to divert pressure

This is a scumclaim.

Dunn, Alisae, would you help me analyze conversation between Kyouko and AntiHuman? That may be the only explanation of the nk?

Y only Dunn and Alisae?

Most likely cause we were the ones posting at the time.

I'm still alive, it's a miracle.

I think you are still alive for two reasons:

1. You weren't very active last day phase;
2. ssbm was too close to the truth.

2. Is a slip.

Interesting night kill.

but yeah im onto something i think so

if im not here to remind yall about kop in the morning please revisit his last few posts of the day

, completely unacceptable imo. If Kop/AH are both town I think

Gamma/Dave/Alisae

This is damming. Why would ssbm be targeted by the mafia over the innocent child?

HOS on Kop and Gamma. I really don't like how AH derailed gamma's wagon. I'm willing to vote for either kop or gamma.

If AH didn't have such a hard-on for you I'd think you're scum for this comment.

I think TB could be scum. Does that count for something.

VOTE: Kop

How is that a scum claim? Please explain.

Interesting night kill.

but yeah im onto something i think so

if im not here to remind yall about kop in the morning please revisit his last few posts of the day

, completely unacceptable imo. If Kop/AH are both town I think

Gamma/Dave/Alisae

This is damming. Why would ssbm be targeted by the mafia over the innocent child?

HOS on Kop and Gamma. I really don't like how AH derailed gamma's wagon. I'm willing to vote for either kop or gamma.

Ya, Think is scum framing Kop with the SSBM kill.

Kop only?

FoS Desperado

How is FoS at desperado for claiming that a likely scenario that myself and you are being set up for that kill?

Right at the minute, reads are changing because there is far too much WIFOM that it's hard to believe the likely scenarios are in play, and this is what scum were aiming for.

But my aim of suspicion right now is towards you Gamma, and that's where I'm leaving my vote.

[Kop]

@Dunnstral
Why are you so sure TB is Town? I think the logic behind his wagon is convincing.

@Gamma
872 is redundant. Just under half the playerbase is on you. If you could kill one of the following players who would it be? + Why?
K O P
R E A L O
S U P E R H A N S
D U N N S T R A L

This is twice I've seen you ask this question, what are you aiming to achieve?

[Kop]

It's a way to ask for reads. Y do you ask?

I see a lot of questions that are the same, I was just wondering what you were aiming to achieve.

[Kop]

My apologies for inactivity. I will read every page missed tomorrow at some point.

[Kop]

[quote="In post 1100

I know one thing for sure, that is ThinkBig and Antihuman AREN'T scum together.

ThinkBig and AntiHuman were engaged in a fight to the death. AntiHuman was fighting from the jaws of death under intense pressure. He was pushing ThinkBig very very hard. I doubted that two scum would want to fight so hard, even by bussing standards, since AntiHuman was actually producing some fairly valid scum claims on ThinkBig (undermining his logic).
However,
Looking back on it, you can see that their relationship was more nuanced:
If it was a S v T fight to the death then why did ThinkBig back off halfway through the fight to go after Dunnstral?

That last comment is actually a good point, if I was to put myself in that mindset, it would tell me that TB saw that the pressure was going too far on AH and felt that he needed to try and stall it by any means, so that he went after Dunnstral in hope that attention would divert off AH. And to add to the fact that when the onus was put back onto TB, TB claimed that whilst he was voting for Dunnstral, he was still ready to push AH if time required, so he was still ready to switch in case he couldn't do enough to get focus placed elsewhere and he wouldn't look as bad for trying to deflect.

[Kop]

Uh, Antihero was traitor? not a good?

Surely if the two of you are suggesting that thinkbig moved off of antihero because he knew he was the traitor, you can point to where thinkbig would have known that antihero was a traitor? Some kind of tell, or soft, or the way Ah acted?

Coming out hard on a maf buddy doesn't scream "traitor" to me.

I think I may have misread the whole Mafia PM's.

So on that said, thinkbig may be town after all. After rereading the PM's set out in first page, I don't forsee a traitor coming out that hard, now that I know the traitor only knows who the the mafia are, but mafia don't know who the traitor is.

[Kop]

I find that hard to believe Kop given you've played this exact setup before and made the following comment in this post:

But scum don't know who the traitor is though? There is the chance that they could end up night killing him, which is a risk because it doesn't help them that way though.

I know I was a mafia traitor on another site, but ended up getting night killed by my own team mates day one, they didn't know I was the traitor.

I totally forgot that I had already researched this point and got side drawn from it.

Yes whilst I agree I have played as a traitor before, however it wasn't in this exact setup. This setup is slightly different to the one I participated on another site.

[Kop]

http://www.footballforums.net/threads/m ... es.253556/

That's the game I'm talking about. That's the only time I've played where a traitor has been in play.

I've ran setups a few times with a traitor inserted, but it was done differently to what it was here.

[Kop]

Yes but in the game you linked traitor knew mafia and mafia didn't know traitor, that's generally the norm for the role which was also the case last time you played this setup. I find it really hard to believe that anyone that read this thread would think that mafia could know the traitor given lots of cases and arguments are based entirely around AH's partners not knowing him and him trying to signal them. Like when you read posts like Alisea stating that she thought MariaR was crumbing traitor or read posts like Dave suggesting that Desperados predecessor had claimed traitor or read posts with people tying TB & AH together stating that they think AH was signalling TB through the push what were you thinking?

Like there's nothing I can find based on your history with traitors, your history with this setup or your prior posts in this thread that make your stance on you thinking mafia knowing traitor makes any sense to me.

I didn't take any notice to any of the crumbs that were mentioned. I've never seen a traitor crumb to his fellow partners, and don't honestly believe traitors would without bringing attention onto themselves. So if there was any or anyone who believed were crumbs, I just didn't believe that it would be genuine crumbs purely because of that reason, people picking up on them.

In the game that I played as traitor or the games that I ran where I included the traitor role, not one crumb was left. In this game here alone, any crumb that is left that I think coul d be the traitor I ignored because I just don't buy it as a crumb to his partners that he is the traitor.

[Kop]

UNVOTE: Gamma

I didn't realise I never unvoted. Let me read back the previous few pages.

[Kop]

@Kop - RE: Post 1262 I'm not asking if you were looking for traitor crumbs yourself. I'm asking how you didnt notice that majority of peoples conversations were about people looking for them. When reading the thread you didn't think this was weird given your stance on mafia knowing them at the time? Like given your last few posts either you''re town that genuinely didn't know how the mafia team worked or you're scum that's trying to throw out a dumb tell to get town read and excuse your TB scum read post. Explain how the first of the two scenarios is the one that's the case here and that I should be unvoting you and looking elsewhere.

The scenario I am under I did see people talking about possible crumbs but I never take any notice of these simply because some crumbs can be a total fabrication so never even attempted to go and look for what was in discussion. I was under the illusion that scum knew who the traitor was so the crumbs that were in discussion were pointless to me, to waste time over looking it all. Now that I obviously understand the whole scenario regarding the traitor, if I did at the time, I would have been looking at the crumb discussions and seeing if I had noticed this too. Like I said I have played with the traitor role before, but I'll reiterate the point again since It's been said that it was this setup, it wasn't. It was ran on a different site and also is slightly different to how mafia games are ran over here, there is modifiers that make it a bit different.

It isn't a dumbtell that I used to gain town credit, it's genuinely me having a mare of a game and not actually reading it and proof reading it.

Ignore the three roles listed at the top of the post, that's just part of my notes when analysisng this.

I want to go through Dunns ISO & get a claim from Kop before we considering moving on.

I just noticed that I am on L-1. I am a Town Roleblocker.

I cannot back this claim up because the person I roleblocked is dead, I roleblocked ssbm_Kyouko. I had noticed a few slight things that were worrying me at the time how he town read AH and didn't want to get onto the wagon, and with him flipping scum, same problem as before being under the illusion that scum knew the traitor was, I thought he was scum because of that.

Re: Dumbtell. I will have to evaluate that when I get back to my laptop. It does make more sense from town POV, though Kop is an experienced player (far more than I am) and it doesn't seem like the kind of slip coming from an experienced player.

I have been playing mafia for quite some time, a few year at least with more than a handful games on different sites. I am immensely prone to having at least a few very bad games where I make myself look like a complete newbie. Unfortunately this is one of them.

@ThingBig - Why do you think Desperados push on you is him being mafia rather than him just being incorrect as town? Willing to wait for you to get to a computer to go through his/Aliseas ISOs to answer.

If scum really didn't add any modifiers then him claiming goon cop has a roughly ~1/4 chance of being CC'ed, that's not particularly high enough that would stop him fake claiming thinking he may be lynched otherwise. Like I said the way the claim happened and how he softed it does make much more sense as town but he's certainly not lock clear from it.

I'm conflicted on what to make of the dumbtell, I don't see how town that genuinely is reading through the thread can have that belief (That mafia knew traitor via role PM) unless they're not actually reading the thread properly and ignoring lots of conversations. I also don't see how Kop can have held that belief given some of his own posts inside this thread, the fact he's played the seutp before and the fact he's played as traitor where mafia didn't know who he was too. That said I don't know if attempting to fake a dumbtell like that is what mafia would think to do, it has scum motivation yes but is it the play they realise? Not sure.

I haven't played in this setup before, I have just played with a traitor.

[Kop]

VOTE: Davesaz

I don't think Dunstrall is scum on my wagon, regfan is confirmed town, if I had to choose scum on that wagon, Davesaz, Desperado or Superhans, it's within those 3.

[Kop]

I haven't played in this setup before, I have just played with a traitor.

You actually have played this setup before.

I forgot all about that game, I have played a lot more on top of that since then, I don't remember every single setup I play.

[Kop]

@Kop

If you are nervous of Gamma's wagon, why you don't role block him?

At the time on day one, I suspected Gamma, but then when I seen kyouko positioning himself with regards to the AH wagon and totally misunderstanding the whole traitor, I felt that with AH flipping traitor, kyouko knew that he was the traitor. But being stupid, honestly, if I wasn't thick and actually understood the traitor role, I wouldn't have roleblocked kyouko at the time because it would have given me a different view to what he was taking. It would have boiled down to him actually seeing something AH not being scum, rather than knowing he was scum and just wanting to distance himself.

[Kop]

My apologies to town for being so poor, in not only not understanding the traitor role but in general.