Mini Normal 1854: Game Over

[Nachomamma8]

I'll have time to catch up tomorrow, but not tonight.

[Nachomamma8]

Tomorrow is going to be a busy day, but today was worse (and over!). I realize that deadline is coming quicker than I'd like it to and thus I'll do my best to produce something significant when I get home tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Fitz, don't you think that claiming with ~1 day left until deadline is pretty reasonable when you're the top wagon?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm catching up now, will hopefully find something good by the end of it.

[Nachomamma8]

Day 2 please lynch fitz ok. I won't be around to do it so please, don't let him off the hook.

There's no reason we can't lynch him today.

Where do you want to direct the wagon, Josh?

[Nachomamma8]

He wants an Io-slot lynch iirc

And yet he's the lone vote on Vedith?

[Nachomamma8]

Dierfire, could we get a 24 hour extension? I would appreciate the extra cushion if possible; reading, processing, and trying to do something in 48 hours is a lot.

[Nachomamma8]

Mathblade, why do you want to lynch Gamma?

[Nachomamma8]

There's no reason we can't lynch him today.

Been trying for at least 15 to 20 pages with little to no support. I'm not hopeful it's going to magically happen now.

It's certainly possible; Gamma, you, and I could sway easily and if Josh the vanity voter is amendable to the move it's tied with the largest wagon of the day.

Sell me?

[Nachomamma8]

Fitz, don't you think that claiming with ~1 day left until deadline is pretty reasonable when you're the top wagon?

This is a good point. I was more focused on the fact Gamma has been doing this throughout the day when we were "nowhere close to deadline then."

By "throughout the day", do you mean "that one time when there were three days of deadline left"? Or do you have examples that you didn't quote?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm all out of energy at this point. Between stupid townies and a pair of useless masons my patience is gone with this game.

Hi, I'm new blood. I will not be a useless mason. If you're giving up and turning in because you can't hold on and produce for another day, then you're just as much a part of the problem at the people you're currently frustrated at because you're burying your head in the sand when an opportunity to change the gamestate has finally presented itself.

[Nachomamma8]

Fitz, don't you think that claiming with ~1 day left until deadline is pretty reasonable when you're the top wagon?

This is a good point. I was more focused on the fact Gamma has been doing this throughout the day when we were "nowhere close to deadline then."

By "throughout the day", do you mean "that one time when there were three days of deadline left"? Or do you have examples that you didn't quote?

I asked LUV to claim his mason partner

Ah. That was stupid as shit.

[Nachomamma8]

He wants an Io-slot lynch iirc

And yet he's the lone vote on Vedith?

i have a very, very strong scum read on twiszted, and vedith hasnt exactly been a super strong townie. i encourage you to read through twiszted's content itt, its awful.

We have under a day to reach majority and get a lynch. What makes you think that people are going to see the light on Vedith and suddenly vote him out if you're not going to put in the work to get it done? Who else would you vote as a compromise?

[Nachomamma8]

By "throughout the day", do you mean "that one time when there were three days of deadline left"? Or do you have examples that you didn't quote?

The first example I gave was from 2 weeks ago. It's appeared to be a recurring theme. Those three examples are it. Along with his advice to not claim unless at L-1.

And is that the crux of your case against him?

[Nachomamma8]

I wouldn't really hold it against him tbh
He's a House alt, and House has a distinct aggressive style

TwoFace?

[Nachomamma8]

Makes sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Fitz, where did you go?

[Nachomamma8]

Why didn't you comment on the possibility of me pushing a lynch through on you?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm all out of energy at this point. Between stupid townies and a pair of useless masons my patience is gone with this game.

Hi, I'm new blood. I will not be a useless mason. If you're giving up and turning in because you can't hold on and produce for another day, then you're just as much a part of the problem at the people you're currently frustrated at because you're burying your head in the sand when an opportunity to change the gamestate has finally presented itself.

Hi you replaced in and proceeded to do nothing until right now.

I've made many posts why fitz is scum. I have no desire or time to repost it. I'm sorry but that doesn't make me part of the problem because Ive done my job already.

You want to know why I think fitz is scum? Go fucking read the game. You don't want to, then YOU are part of the fucking problem.

I'm sick and tired of replacements replacing in and not doing shit. It happens way too much. If you don't want to read, don't replace in.

Your job isn't just to post what you think, you know. Your job is also to sell; if people weren't following you on the fitz case when you were making it earlier, then it makes sense to back off for a little while and take a different tack.

I don't believe that you don't have time to sum up why you think someone should be lynched; tell me the points you feel the strongest about and typing it up shouldn't take but a moment.

[Nachomamma8]

Thanks for the extension Dier!

Vote: havingfitz

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you feel the need to participate in RVS?

This is an insanely odd question.
At the end of the day it probably won't factor largely into my final read of the slot, but this is definitely something that I would have questioned had I been around at the time.

I'm gonna try my hand at mafia again, and I just can't believe how many people ran away already!What did you people do to these poor souls!?
I don't have a clue why anyone would replace out with this role!

So, Hi all!

Aristophanes is sticking his neck out too much already for him to be scum; generally, don't think that his scum game looks particularly excited and not sure that it drops something like "I don't have a clue why anyone would replace out with this role!" early - it stops him from claiming Vanilla Townie later without getting pressure for it and that seems like a strange thing to set up so early, and an especially strange thing to be coming from uncomfortable scum.

town does not come in heavy hinting their PR on their first post

This early aggression threw off the bad first impression a bit; would be impressed if most players decided to stick their neck out that far in order to push a lynch through on a person who softed PR.

You'd totally do that as any role I feel.

And any alignment?

TVD's follow up content similarly makes me feel better about him; I don't necessarily think that there's anything in particular about them that stands out as exceptionally town, but I like his contributions in general.

[Nachomamma8]

Go duck off Mr Mason. You think that claim excuses you from putting in the work? No it doesn't. I've done my job. You want me to convince you on fitz?

Get to reading. All of my reasons are in there. - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8590645

And stop criticizing people for not doing shit until you've done something yourself.

I'm not sure where I've overstepped my bounds.

I am going to read on the day that I said I was going to read. I find engaging in real time to be equally useful, and typically don't find that my catchup suffers when I'm doing both, so I'm doing both. I never said that I wasn't going to read.

My "sell me" was less an honest request for you to convince me on fitz (I'll likely make my own conclusions based on what I read), and more of an encouragement for you to push a wagon that you preferred as opposed to rolling over and settling for Day 2.

My point when I criticized you earlier was not that you haven't done enough work, but rather that deciding not to put in work at such a pivotal moment of the day (wagons move a lot easier when deadline is close, you have an opportunity to work with a couple new players) seems silly; this is the point in the day when it's likely that you will actually get a return on the effort that you're putting in.

[Nachomamma8]

ive scrolled through the thread and isos a ton and i feel confident gut wise about vedith being scum, but i dont have a case atm that i can post so for now and i get im not being very convincing. ill be on as i said and ill vote fitz tomorrow if it has no traction by then.

Do you have posts that you dislike on TT or Vedith? Start there, see what you can put words to.

[Nachomamma8]

Gamma, why Creeps over fitz?

[Nachomamma8]

Gamma, why Creeps over fitz?

1) Creeps distrust of the masons seems scummy, and if he lives to LyLo, based on his current behavior, he's a definite liability
2) Math had a strange switch off of Creeps that makes me think they're scumbuddies

Why do you think that Creeps distrusting masons is scummy when there's no way in hell that he's actually getting us lynched? Your signature is about you getting paranoid of conftown and someone reading you as town as a result so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect you to understand why scum probably wouldn't push the mason pair here.

Why do you think that Mathblade is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

he constantly goes for easy pushes. the first thing he does itg is go for tvd. when that doesnt pan out, he goes for eric, the ubernoob. he gets off eventually, but like, eric was obvtown to me, though clearly im biased knowing he was townie. there are only scum reasons to push a supernoob like that, as opposed to a noob of my level who is at least competent. more importantly, literally every post of his was contentless and empty. he did not start any GOOD discussons, or join in in any. #175 is also p bad, the only game ive completed on this site scum delegated to things such as 'x is scum and bonus points who tells me why', aka tricking people into subconsciously analyzing scummy traits of a person and ignoring their actual stance. twiszted was super scummy and nothing has changed my view on that.

This approach makes sense, I'll look out for it.
I think that House is a player that occasionally misses things that most people pick up on (aka Eric's ubertowniness), so the tell is lessened somewhat but I agree that some of his early approaches look pretty terrible; right now, I'm reading through his early approach to Gamma and I don't really like what he's scumreading Gamma for (assuming and wording, neither of which are scumtells in any sense of the word).

[Nachomamma8]

Then you should preface your post with the fact it's an interpretation and not "what he meant".

This attack is entirely semantics; not exactly something that I like as a general rule since most people seem to be intelligent enough to realize that the exact words that a person uses doesn't exactly mean that much.

So now you're making assumptions, as well as speaking for others.

This attack experiences a similar "obvious this isn't what's happening" type of thing. I think it's completely possible that House was trying to trip up Gamma at this point; it certainly doesn't seem like they're scumpartners based on House's approach here.

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

Best bet for me ...

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

Best bet for me ...

Why is Uzi scum?

Reading through the chat and based on my gut, I have a feeling its Uzi ... Although I have no evidence to support it ...

These couple of posts in tandem are pretty awkward; the "best bet for me" seems like he meant something different than the explanation he ended up offering.

Now, you're coming off as scummy lol ... There is a high probability that you're not scum ... The mod seems to make all the new players(as in the ones who started their account in Nov) all VT ... So, I dont think you're scum ...

This, however, ends up blowing that out of the water completely; this is a fairly common town slip from offsite since a lot of sites don't rand who is scum and who is town and Eric on a scumteam would know that the moderator didn't rand everyone to be VT since he himself wasn't scum.

Just because ... Sometimes you dont need a reason .. All my posts have a meaning and it helps me and not the team ... I am not a very good team player because my style is completely different from the others .... My job is to make my alignment win ... I'll do that even if I have to deceive my own alignment ... And I'm out .. Hope the KP comes soon

I liked this response to House; at the moment, don't really have anything more sophisticated than "seems genuine" but he's forming up to be a fairly strong early townread anyways.

[Nachomamma8]

He's just "I don't believe you".

And what motivation does he have for doing that as scum?

[Nachomamma8]

he constantly goes for easy pushes. the first thing he does itg is go for tvd. when that doesnt pan out, he goes for eric, the ubernoob. he gets off eventually, but like, eric was obvtown to me, though clearly im biased knowing he was townie. there are only scum reasons to push a supernoob like that, as opposed to a noob of my level who is at least competent. more importantly, literally every post of his was contentless and empty. he did not start any GOOD discussons, or join in in any. #175 is also p bad, the only game ive completed on this site scum delegated to things such as 'x is scum and bonus points who tells me why', aka tricking people into subconsciously analyzing scummy traits of a person and ignoring their actual stance. twiszted was super scummy and nothing has changed my view on that.

This approach makes sense, I'll look out for it.
I think that House is a player that occasionally misses things that most people pick up on (aka Eric's ubertowniness), so the tell is lessened somewhat but I agree that some of his early approaches look pretty terrible; right now, I'm reading through his early approach to Gamma and I don't really like what he's scumreading Gamma for (assuming and wording, neither of which are scumtells in any sense of the word).

Me and House don't get along well
First game he tunneled me for parts of Days 1, 2, and 3, wavering his read so he could guage my alignment
Second game I had a read discrepancy he attacked me on, but he was scum so EH

I don't mind that he was pushing; I mind how he pushed.
I don't really think that he thought that it was scummy that you gave an interpretation of how someone was thinking because you didn't say "this is an interpretation" first.

[Nachomamma8]

He's just "I don't believe you".

And what motivation does he have for doing that as scum?

It seems like a towny tinfoil hats thing at first, but then I realized he could be scum disguising himself as bad town

So it could be town and it could be scum but you think that it's scummy?
This is the part where you're losing me.

[Nachomamma8]

Why?

@Gamma

[Nachomamma8]

Mathblade, why do you want to lynch Gamma?

Gamma isn't his town self. In the scum game I was recently in 1841 he was a lot different.

He pushed for mason partner immediately and for many claims IMHO way too early. He has done blatant terribad fishing and it just isn't right.

Unfortunately, I'm not really too familiar with Gamma and currently have enough reading to do where I'm unable to take on anymore, so telling me that he's playing differently isn't particularly helpful; do you have any specifics?

I agree that he pushed for the mason partners to claim too early, but don't think that's strong enough on its own for me to want to push a lynch through on it.

[Nachomamma8]

Mathblade, why do you want to lynch Gamma?

Gamma isn't his town self. In the scum game I was recently in 1841 he was a lot different.

He pushed for mason partner immediately and for many claims IMHO way too early. He has done blatant terribad fishing and it just isn't right.

In that game I was a watcher and I fished for watcher targets D1 when I knew I might get scumread for it

There's a significant difference between the two actions.

There, you asked for watcher targets so you could choose a target better.
Here, you asked for two mason claims instead of one because...?

[Nachomamma8]

Why?

@Gamma

It doesn't feel like he really believes in his paranoia

Seems pretty weak, especially if this is the big case for your preferred lynch.
Do you disagree?

[Nachomamma8]

There's also Math's 60-0 read change on Creeps

Which is also weak. It's day 1, so it's pretty unlikely that we managed to catch two scum immediately, I don't have a particularly strong scumread on Mathblade in the first place, and it's not like read changes are strong indicators of partnerships.

[Nachomamma8]

You don't reread and have your reads end up LESS DEVELOPED.

You don't think that it's possible for people to lose confidence over time?
Or are you making a different point with this?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho I am about to head home after grocery shopping but here is Gamma's ISO from 1841. Note how "jokey" he is and serious he gets at times.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=28404

It is like a robot inherited Gamma's body.

Thanks, I'll glance through it when I get the chance.

[Nachomamma8]

You don't reread and have your reads end up LESS DEVELOPED.

You don't think that it's possible for people to lose confidence over time?
Or are you making a different point with this?

Before they had a me-Creeps-joshz scumteam
After, it was "idek everyone else, gamma is teh scumz"

So why is that reason to lynch Creeps and not Mathblade?

[Nachomamma8]

Yes I do. Wake's game I did and I was town there.

What you mean is YOU don't have your reads less developed. I do.

What the fuck?
Yeah, your reads are less developed. What are you trying to say?

I think what they are saying is that you saying that "people don't reread and end up with less developed reads" was a generalization that didn't apply to them.

[Nachomamma8]

Just because ... Sometimes you dont need a reason .. All my posts have a meaning and it helps me and not the team ... I am not a very good team player because my style is completely different from the others .... My job is to make my alignment win ... I'll do that even if I have to deceive my own alignment ... And I'm out .. Hope the KP comes soon

VOTE: Eric
I see plenty of scum motivation from this post. I feel like he was attempting to start a bandwagon based on nothing so he can get the town flip (assuming he is town) and he can back off saying that he was just random voting

I don't really like this vote on Eric; Creeps seems to ignore all of Eric's other posts because he can't give reasoning for a vote?

Just because ... Sometimes you dont need a reason .. All my posts have a meaning and it helps me and not the team ... I am not a very good team player because my style is completely different from the others .... My job is to make my alignment win ... I'll do that even if I have to deceive my own alignment ... And I'm out .. Hope the KP comes soon

Been mulling this over, and yeah...

VOTE: Eric

Throwing out reads with zero backing.

As far as playing for yourself, that's all fine and good, I do the same. But that doesn't exempt you from responsible scumhunting.

And as for this one, the "responsible scumhunting" line feels slimy and fake; I've played with House before and that seems uncharacteristically stiff. I suppose it could be him trying to disguise his style a bit but I don't really see any differences and so somehow I sincerely doubt it.

I would have been much more happy with 178 if it actually made conclusions; having Io as his strongest scumread for the "statistics" talk also seems shallow and silly.

Hikari's approach to Eric in 190 is interesting; identifying that he is town is good but expected. I'm not sure what to make over his "I'm not sure if he's scum or not" type posts.

[Nachomamma8]

You don't reread and have your reads end up LESS DEVELOPED.

You don't think that it's possible for people to lose confidence over time?
Or are you making a different point with this?

Before they had a me-Creeps-joshz scumteam
After, it was "idek everyone else, gamma is teh scumz"

So why is that reason to lynch Creeps and not Mathblade?

It felt like he was backing off his buddy
Now that you point it out, what I did is actually rather bad. I'm voting the wrong side of the association.
VOTE: MathBlade

Okay. Why do you suspect Mathblade outside of what you just told me? What do you think of their predecessor?

[Nachomamma8]

Mathblade isn't a "he", but interesting point in a creeps vote following shortly after.

[Nachomamma8]

Gamma, is there any chance you'd be willing to swing to fitz in the spirit of compromise?

[Nachomamma8]

You also never actually answered why you asked for a mason claim when you did.

[Nachomamma8]

Aristophanes's next spurt of posting moves him up into a high confidence townread - would be extraordinarily surprised if he was scum here based on the experiential meta I have on him.

Mafiascum is life.

UNVOTE: Eric

VOTE: Uzi

Useless posts. Constantly. I really haven't seen much content

This vote looks fairly opportunistic.

What.
YOU CLAIM AT L-1!
Hmmmm...

The PARTNER NOW! piece was fairly weird, I understand why people had issure with it; interested in hearing Gamma's side on it.

I asked for a partner claim because if there is no partner we have caught scum.

And if there is a partner, you've outed two power roles and reduced the chance of the masons being protected.
You didn't think that it might be useful to not paint giant red bullseyes on more town PRs than necessary?

[Nachomamma8]

I would vote Gamma and Ari as well. Neither of them have done fcukall this game that I can recall other than sheeping TwoFace's crapass case on me.

Vedith and Deers have petered out after replacing in. Sadly. wtf

Josh has revived the Eric slot a bit so looking forward (hopefully) to seeing what that slot provides tomorrow.
Misa claimed mason so I guess their work is done

This post is fucking bullshit. "I've done jack shit" "I HAVEN'T DONE SHIT" SURE IT AIN'T ALL GOOD SHIT BUT I'VE DONE SHIT

Vote him, then.

[Nachomamma8]

Seems more important to determine who we're lynching in the limited amount of time we have left; mass claim adds in unnecessary complication to the day.

[Nachomamma8]

That's silly.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm here to catch scum, i can't tell if eric is yet tho

Hikari, this is the part of the post that I'm talking about. You seemed like you had a pretty decent townread on him early and then it fizzled out into this; your read solidified later, so this isn't something that I really care about.

[Nachomamma8]

Noone defends someone unless he has some good posts spot on.

I think that this is a fairly poor generalization; it isn't really unheard of or uncommon for people to townread other people on Day 1.

Actually Now i feel TwoFace and Eric both are town. I mis-interpreted few things, i guess.

My Current sus list:
Creeps
Gamma

Others are null for now.

I think that pushing a player and then backing off suddenly in the way that Deer did is an odd move. As scum, I can see him doing so if he worried that he was getting in trouble and isn't a very strong player, whereas if town I can see him realizing the push was silly and then backing off. I'm not sure which I think is more likely quite yet, but, for me, it's pretty hard to believe that Deer went from "OMGUS is a scumtell where I come from" to "TwoFace is town!" within the course of a minute.

Creeps in 401 makes another odd, weird vote, but showing up in 411 to tell Gamma that it's okay to scumread him seems pretty weird from a scum perspective.

Who's up for a Fitz lynch today?
His arguments against people are horrendous, and I know he's better than that. I mean like "You voted a Mason before they claimed! You must be scum!" doesn't even make any fucking sense!

VOTE: Fitz

Interested in why you moved from here to Creeps; would you be willing to move back?

Hey guys,
Im back. Going to read everything tonight.

This is also a slot that can die whenever; I feel like a majority of what I've read from it is "hey guys, I'll be back later! ;D".

[Nachomamma8]

But Creeps is like "you're pretty much confirmed but I STILL DON'T TRUST YOU".

Creeps is a new player. That meshes pretty well with his playstyle in general.

[Nachomamma8]

Ending off for tonight.

For now, reads:

TOWN:
LUV
Josh
Aristophanes
Mathblade

TwoFace
Gamma Emerald

Hikari
Creeps

Frank

Vedith
Deer
Fitz

[Nachomamma8]

Aristophanes's play this game seems like night and day compared with his scum game. I thought that Eric looked incredibly obvious town from the slip to his responses when he started getting pressured. I think that Mathblade looks pretty good and I thought her predecessor looked pretty good although I suppose I should move her down to the next column. TwoFace and Gamma both seem pretty talkative and productive which equals townreads but I haven't really found any smoking guns to prove their towniness. Creeps has some weird votes but there are a couple posts I think look pretty good, Hikari seems fine but is a competent scum player so am hoping for something more definite before moving him up.

Frank hasn't yet done shit but promise to catch up and fail to deliver. It's not very difficult to imagine him as scum.

I thought that House's early pushes looked fake as hell and Vedith has not yet erased that suspicion.

Deer going from scumreading TF to townreading him within the course of a minute seem awkward and unrealistic.

Fitz's pushes this game have been oddly weak and I haven't read a post from him yet that feels like it has any good energy in it at all.

[Nachomamma8]

You seemed like you had a pretty decent townread on him early and then it fizzled out into this

it didn't fizzle out into that, that's post 190 - fair point if this was post 200 or 300 tho (its not)

Why did you go from unsure on Eric to him being town?

[Nachomamma8]

Reading up through 39 gamma is def suspect. His reads are wishy washy. Fence sitting. Could just be wary town.

Why does creep look scummy? What is your read on fitz?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho have a conversation with me when you get back.

what do you think about the idea of looking at the people who voted /suspected a claimed mason. Good idea or no?

I'll have some follow up questions

I know you said nevermind to this, but no. If someone has suspicion that seems particularly wonky then treat it like suspicion on anyone else.

[Nachomamma8]

Then Creeps or Gamma all other are vanity at this point.

Fitz and Creeps are both at 4; wouldn't call fitz a vanity wagon.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm town. Stop pushing a mislynch for what?
Busy RL day. If I'm still alive in the morning I'll be available to discuss further.
zzzzzzzzz

"If I'm still alive in the morning" doesn't seem like something a PR who was worried about getting lynched would say.

[Nachomamma8]

I think the "Creeps doubted the mason claim"! Is ultra silly considering he said "for now" and then two people asked him why he didn't 100% believe it.

[Nachomamma8]

I think I'd still rather take the plunge with a fitz lynch, unfortunately. It's certainly a risk but I don't feel good about Creeps as an alternative and I don't think Fitz's mindset lines up with that jailkeeper claim.

[Nachomamma8]

Fitz, I've given bits and pieces of why I suspect you; haven't quite gotten into as many specifics as I'd like due to lack of time but it's mostly because I don't believe the suspicions that you're pushing and I don't feel great about your recent responses; instead of trying to sell me on something else or push back against the reasons you've given, you asked me twice why I am pushing you. I also think you wouldn't be so "agh I will probably be mislynched today" if you were town and had a PR claim to back it up, and don't think that you'd fake a mindset to make you seem like VT if you didn't have a lot of time to work with in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

Because if fitz flips scum Math is most likely town.

This doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

[Nachomamma8]

caught up overnight.

STRONG TOWN (would bet the game that none of these players will flip scum):
Lil Uzi Vert
TwoFace
Joshz
Aristophanes

DECENT TOWN (would be incredibly surprised if any of these players flip scum):
Creeps
Gamma

LEAN TOWN (I think they are town, but am not 100% confident):
Hiraki
---big gap---
Vedith

SCUM (I think these are the remaining scum):
Deers
---big gap---
Frank

[Nachomamma8]

The case on Frank hinges pretty heavily on the wide gulf between his play here and his play in Newbie 1744, where he was town. Now, typically, meta'ing after a single game is foolish and silly, but there's a big enough difference between the two games where it's definitely something I think we should talk about. There's also the matter of Frank's lack of time in this game is probably genuine which eats into the significance of this a bit but even when he's had a bit of time he's reached nothing close to the production he reached in that game and I think it's because he's uncomfortable with playing scum.

As far as body of work goes, Frank seems a hell of a lot more invested in 1744 than he does here, even from the beginning; whereas our Frank focuses on what's anti-town and throws out reads without backing them up at all, 1744 Frank questions early, and when he provides a scumread, provides decent backing to go along with it. Also of note is that during this game Frank goes through a hurricane that takes away computer access and when he comes back he has a catchup that is a great deal less underwhelming than the catchup we got here (compare this and this with the atrociousness that we were subjected to).

Now, as for game related posts...

First of all, he has 30 posts this game. 10 of them are promises of more content. Now, that people don't have time and all, but the fact that dodging posting in the game is a third of his posting is the part where prod dodging veers from annoying into alignment-indicative; compounded with the fact that whenever he does post content it's violently underwhelming, I don't really think there's a chance that he's town here.

Another good chunk of his posts are posts that aren't promises, but posts that aren't alignment-indicative; 58 and 60 are two posts dealing with why he thinks something is anti-town and thus has nothing to do with alignment, 61 is discussing alt identity and thus has nothing to do with alignment, 67 is talking about how discussing TVD's alt-identity is antitown and thus has nothing to do with alignment, 82 and 86 are two Frank posts where he talks about why discussing whether TVD is an alt or not is useless and thus has nothing to do with alignment.

The rest of his posts are half-baked reads; he townreads Hikari because "a couple posts look townish" and spend a large part of his time talking about how he doesn't see how people are scumreading him; this makes the chances of Frank being knowingly aligned with Hikari drop pretty dramatically since I don't think that the entirety of his content would be townreading his scumpartner for absolutely no reason (weak scum generally avoid scumpartners, and if Frank is this bad at faking content, I'd imagine the main read that he'd have would be a truth read as opposed to faking it and it's much easier to townread town than it is to do anything else).

His vote on Creep, however, is the scummiest. The entirety of the case on him presented is "10-15, Creeps looks scummy" to voting him instantly; this looks like scum trying to drive through the mislynch through and through.

If Frank is scum with havingfitz (he very likely is), then Hiraki moves up to decent town, Creeps moves up to strong town.

[Nachomamma8]

Io/Deer:

I don't really think that Io's opening is alignment-indicative; she made an RVS vote against one of the four people who replaced out and then clarified that it wasn't a serious push either. I mean sure, I guess that she could be scum and backtracking because she got too much heat for the push, but seems unlikely to me.

From a body of work perspective, the main reasons that I suspect Deer are:

1) I think that most of his pushes (primarily on Eric and Creeps) have been remarkably easy pushes to make without any conviction. I think that he was attempting to push through easy mislynches, which is a feeling that is especially compounded if Frank flips scum.

2) I think that the readswitch from scumreading TwoFace and Eric to townreading them within the course of a minute looked remarkably odd; don't think that it was a genuine thought progression.

3) I don't like his interaction with havingfitz. He said that he would "read all his posts within 12 hours to get a read on him" lurked for two days, then added him to the suspect list because TwoFace (the person he was scumreading before) said so. When talking about who he was willing to wagon, the people who he is willing to lynch are Hiraki and Creeps and Fitz but he'd rather lynch Hiraki and Creeps over Fitz; this seems especially odd since his top three suspects (in order) before were 1) Creeps, 2) Gamma, and 3) fitz, so you'd think that even if he was townreading Gamma all of a sudden fitz would still be a stronger read than Hikari.

I'll break down why some of Deer's specific posts bother me in a little bit.

[Nachomamma8]

Because if fitz flips scum Math is most likely town.

This doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

Gamma, tell me why this made sense.

Nacho, tell me why it didn't.

The hammer was an obvious CC.

It would have been nice if you were a bit smarter about your reaction to it.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: FrankJaeger

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think of my FJ read?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm particularly interested in your read here since I noticed that you spectated the game that I'm using as meta and yet haven't really brought up anything against him yet.

[Nachomamma8]

I BARELY followed that game.

Figured as much, just saw you pop up in the aftermath and wanted to see if you followed it more closely than I thought.
Is that what the "wait what" is referring to?

[Nachomamma8]

so... are you going to vote FJ, do you want to vote someone else, what's going on?
@Gamma

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE COUNT 1.02

Eric Rasputin (3): Creeps20, Lil Uzi Vert, MisaTange
Lil Uzi Vert (2): Hiraki, TheseViolentDelights
TheseViolentDelights (1): Gamma Emerald
Io (1): havingfitz
Hiraki (1): Io
havingfitz (1): Aristophanes
TwiszTed (1): Eric Rasputin

No Vote (3): TwoFace, FrankJaeger, TwiszTed

TIMER

(expired on 2016-11-30 16:30:00)

NOTES

Seeking replacement for Io

I think I'd rather lynch Creeps than Frank today tbh
He's the only one not confirmed town on the Eric wagon here, and Eric is very likely town.
Would have been nice if I had thought to check this earlier, but Day 1 VCA is usually terrible so w/e

that's a horrible reason to vote

[Nachomamma8]

why do you think one of the early votes on Eric was scum?
why did you cut it off at the three vote wagon when having three town votes on town is not at all unheard of?

[Nachomamma8]

in fact, in Family Mafia, the first three votes on Spicy were town. the three person wagon that formed on me that game was also all town.

[Nachomamma8]

why do you think one of the early votes on Eric was scum?
why did you cut it off at the three vote wagon when having three town votes on town is not at all unheard of?

I was looking at the official VC. As for why, he was lynchbait early on.

so was spicy.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, can you explain why you consider Aristophanes lock town?

meta. his scum game looks like Frank's play here.

[Nachomamma8]

If you're looking for people who "voted Eric early", why not look at Deers?

140 "helps me and not my team" Something like you are scum and you dont want to out any reason and just hop on the BWs saying you have a reason?

He said that Eric was scum because Eric said "helps me and not my team" - I find that reason to generally be pretty semantic and saying that the line was setting up for "just hopping on BWs saying you have a reason" is a pretty bad stretch.

161 That's a BS reason saying he is town because he is newbie. And Why wont Host do that? About "you will regret it" Mafias play with emotions, Townies play with facts and logics.

Deer isn't wrong that Eric's logic is bad, but saying that his bad logic makes him scummy is... iffy. I hate the "Mafias play with emotions, Townies play with facts and logics" line - he made up a hard rule to say that Eric having emotions is scummy and if that's not a scum play then I don't know what is.

170 Again, He votes just saying "This is all i need".

Deer didn't say why he thought it was scummy, just used the fact that it was terse as a reason to vote against him.

I don't think that this is the thought process of someone legitimately trying to read Eric; I think it's the thought process of someone who is trying to push a lynch on lynchbait.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, can you explain why you consider Aristophanes lock town?

meta. his scum game looks like Frank's play here.

and i know this isn't satisfactory, and will expand on why Aristo is town once I'm finished casing Deers.

[Nachomamma8]

in fact, in Family Mafia, the first three votes on Spicy were town. the three person wagon that formed on me that game was also all town.

Ah

why are you still voting Creeps?

[Nachomamma8]

I do not like Deers' vote on Eric at all. He clearly states he doesn't see scum intent in Eric's posts. However, I'm not sure scum would be so direct in that statement.

that was clearly a typo

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

[Nachomamma8]

Frank's backup bodyguard role means that he should be able to get himself killed during the night; no reason to lynch him today.

[Nachomamma8]

And I have my doubts that Frank would be able to fakeclaim better than fitz would.

[Nachomamma8]

It's a backup bodyguard; that means that Frank wouldn't have been able to use powers until Math died.

[Nachomamma8]

Which makes sense for balance since bodyguard + Masons is too weak but other things are mostly too strong. Don't think Frank has the experience to come up with that and doubt he was putting in work Wiki-diving to come up with it.

[Nachomamma8]

Which makes sense for balance since bodyguard + Masons is too weak but other things are mostly too strong. Don't think Frank has the experience to come up with that and doubt he was putting in work Wiki-diving to come up with it.

Bg with 2 masons isn't that weak. I think the game with uzi and I, we had 2 masons and a watcher with a hated. (Thinking that's right. Uzi? Isn't that the game)

Watcher has a pretty significant power advantage over bodyguard; bodyguard is a VT that can keep PRs alive a little longer and watcher gets a free scum with a successful protect.

[Nachomamma8]

Which makes sense for balance since bodyguard + Masons is too weak but other things are mostly too strong. Don't think Frank has the experience to come up with that and doubt he was putting in work Wiki-diving to come up with it.

Bg with 2 masons isn't that weak. I think the game with uzi and I, we had 2 masons and a watcher with a hated. (Thinking that's right. Uzi? Isn't that the game)

Watcher has a pretty significant power advantage over bodyguard; bodyguard is a VT that can keep PRs alive a little longer and watcher gets a free scum with a successful protect.

[Nachomamma8]

Not entirely sold.

He could always lie about who he protected during the night in order to avoid suspicion when questioned about why he didn't die.

That works for one night. Doesn't work for two.

[Nachomamma8]

Don't bring Hiraki to L-1 yet; there are still things that need to be discussed today.

[Nachomamma8]

Not going to do that. It doesn't matter at this point

Of course it matters who was the NK...
It's helps prevent a shit push from town later.

It's likely that masons were going to be protected.
There were also two of us; shooting outside of the confirmed town block because of fear of protection is a possibility, but it is not the gospel like you're acting it to be. Mathblade dying as a bodyguard last night should not be a significant part of anyone's towncase on TwoFace.

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you out your role so quickly?
Why wouldn't you read your predecessor's ISO first?

[Nachomamma8]

"You're a doctor" reaction tests are pretty commonplace from my experience, seems smarter to me to read the old ISO than it does to just out and reduce the scum's PR hunting pool.

[Nachomamma8]

it's the least important part of the game for me catching up.

it becomes important when people ask you to claim
holding onto a claim is important and it takes about 10 seconds to search "track" in your predecessor's ISO

[Nachomamma8]

but you do you.
looking forward to catchup.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote Creeps, Ari!

Just did a quick Iso look and forgot how much I actually want to vote this slot. Also, Fitz comes up 21 times in his ISO, all in quotes of others talking about for where Creeps doesn't mention that part of the post. He once says he doesn't have a scumread on Fitz and that he won't sheep, attaching some digression about shepherds to it.

I'll join you.

VOTE: Creeps

Why Creeps?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: AJ the Epic

Eric Rasputin was highly suspect and what I've read on this page does nothing to make me warm and fuzzy about the slot. Specifically, drawing on the newb card isn't an excuse for bad play. New players are honest and easily readable as town, if not confused. Inconsistency is a great way to catch the differentiation if nothing else.

I'd like you to back up the Eric Rasputin suspicion. You are a more than capable player, and I'm not really sure that I buy you misreading newbtown in such a big way unless you have a very compelling reason for doing so.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm less inclined to hold Hiraki as a townread after Frank's claim; I initially thought that Vedith's pushing towards Fitz looked like bussing when I thought that he only pushed him when it seemed like there was a strong potential to lynch him, but when I reread a bit, I realized that Vedith's pushing on Fitz early but forgetting to vote him is a bit odd for a partner interaction; certainly not enough to clear, but probably enough to warn me off him at least for today.

[Nachomamma8]

There is no reason for Hiraki to be hammered yet.

[Nachomamma8]

Even if you flip town scum definitely hasn't won this so that's just dumb

exactly.

it's fake AtE. There is no reason if he were town he would be this upset and certainly there is nothing to suggest town is going to lose given we can narrow the lynch pool down to like 3/4 people. he just happens to be one of those 3/4 people and the only one calling him town can't do so using GAME RELATED reasons.

It's not true that he'd be unable to be this upset as town; when people feel they are being pushed for bad reasons as either alignment, it's pretty natural to get upset.

[Nachomamma8]

Don't worry - I know you'll call me garbage or whatever after my flip, really doesn't mean much coming from you!

I mean why should I be mad when gamma's best assertion toward why I'm scum is one sentence long? That's totally acceptable!

I don't really understand why you're pushing Gamma or Creeps, but that's possibly a failure on my part to read.

What do you think of AJ?

[Nachomamma8]

when people feel they are being pushed for bad reasons as either alignment, it's pretty natural to get upset

except I provided good reasons and he isn't even trying to defend himself from them.

HE said at least 2/3 times that he could/would vote fitz and even had a chance to put him to L-3 and instead he voted creeps?

cmon man that's obvious scum trying to shift the wagon off a buddy, and it worked for a little while

[Nachomamma8]

Io/Deer:

I don't really think that Io's opening is alignment-indicative; she made an RVS vote against one of the four people who replaced out and then clarified that it wasn't a serious push either. I mean sure, I guess that she could be scum and backtracking because she got too much heat for the push, but seems unlikely to me.

From a body of work perspective, the main reasons that I suspect Deer are:

1) I think that most of his pushes (primarily on Eric and Creeps) have been remarkably easy pushes to make without any conviction. I think that he was attempting to push through easy mislynches, which is a feeling that is especially compounded if Frank flips scum.

2) I think that the readswitch from scumreading TwoFace and Eric to townreading them within the course of a minute looked remarkably odd; don't think that it was a genuine thought progression.

3) I don't like his interaction with havingfitz. He said that he would "read all his posts within 12 hours to get a read on him" lurked for two days, then added him to the suspect list because TwoFace (the person he was scumreading before) said so. When talking about who he was willing to wagon, the people who he is willing to lynch are Hiraki and Creeps and Fitz but he'd rather lynch Hiraki and Creeps over Fitz; this seems especially odd since his top three suspects (in order) before were 1) Creeps, 2) Gamma, and 3) fitz, so you'd think that even if he was townreading Gamma all of a sudden fitz would still be a stronger read than Hikari.

I'll break down why some of Deer's specific posts bother me in a little bit.

These are Deer thoughts @Vedith.

[Nachomamma8]

when people feel they are being pushed for bad reasons as either alignment, it's pretty natural to get upset

except I provided good reasons and he isn't even trying to defend himself from them.

HE said at least 2/3 times that he could/would vote fitz and even had a chance to put him to L-3 and instead he voted creeps?

cmon man that's obvious scum trying to shift the wagon off a buddy, and it worked for a little while

I think the argument that he was attempting to derail the havingfitz wagon by giving reasons why he would vote havingfitz (but not voting him) was silly; if he was trying to derail the wagon, I'd expect that he would defend him instead of offer soft suspicion on him.

Him choosing Creeps over Fitz makes sense based on Hiraki's body of work; Hiraki suspected Creeps more than he suspected Fitz initially, and it's not like support for Creeps ever waned. From his point of view, it doesn't make sense for him to join unless Creeps gave him reason to townread him or support for Creeps fizzled out.

The point in particular that I didn't like was when that he had "better reasons to vote fitz than everyone else", but it's not a point that I can actually put words behind so it doesn't factor into my overall read much.

[Nachomamma8]

Gamma is literally terrible. His posts on me conclude that because I'm using emotion, I'm scum - something that hasn't happened since recently. Gamma hasn't said anything about his position. The guy probably has the most posts in the game but the least amount of content.

I need you to do more than prove Gamma has bad logic to show that he's scum; people sometimes stay stupid things (or don't support positions properly), but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're scum.

One particular piece of bad logic - the part where Gamma thought outing the masons was the optimal play for town - seemed to me to be something that was more likely to come from scum than town simply because how brazen it was (not thinking of the circumstances when scum are typically more aware of them). Fitz came down pretty hard against Gamma for this, which I thought was indicative of scum pushing town for bad logic. I find oftentimes that scum push townies hard when they've done something that's objectively bad and overextend themselves a bit - this is what I thought happened with his push on Gamma, and was the reason for my initial scumread on him. What was your opinion on this?

Why did you go from Gamma neutral to Gamma scum? Your tone towards him changes pretty dramatically in 464 and you don't really explain why you were scumreading him in that post.

[Nachomamma8]

I would be OK with anyone saying this but anyone who has thought about voting Eric (like Gamma has done) when Eric does literally the same things from an objective viewpoint. Except, Gamma only shows intent to vote Eric but doesn't do it. There's even a flip-flop on Eric between 185 and 384. Not enough for anyone to question it but there's certainly uncertainty that Gamma is town-reading Eric. In fact, if anything, there's a clear slideline provision there. But the fact that he's going to OK Havingfitz for some of the same things that Eric has literally done puts me at an unease.

I'm not completely sure that I understand the point that you're making here - treating two different people differently makes sense because they're two different people. I agree that both Fitz and Eric were pushing stuff that wasn't actually scummy, but I held Fitz to a higher standard because he knew better while with Eric I understood that he probably wasn't very experienced in this style and being a newer player sometimes makes you tilt at windmills, not to mention anything of the reasons that I was townreading me leaving me a lot more willing to dismiss things that I would push if they were coming out of the mouths of other players.

I don't find it an overly crazy theory to assume that Gamma was bothered by those things because Fitz was experienced and wasn't bothered by those things because Eric wasn't. Why did you?

[Nachomamma8]

And to Hiraki's benefit, the targets that he's chosen don't really make sense from a mafia perspective; if scum here, he wants to make a strong focused push on someone who can actually get lynched today; looking at the playerlist, these people would be much more Artistophanes/Vedith/AJ/Frank than the Creeps/Gamma/Joshz line that he's chosen. In particular, it stands out to me that the scumread that he feels good about is the one on Gamma (probably not getting lynched today) over the one on Creeps (likelier lynch).

I also don't think AJ/Hiraki is a team that makes sense based on Deer's first EoD, so there's that too.

[Nachomamma8]

Idr if I actually posted it but I thought that hiraki/aj was unlikely

Why are you thinking Hiraki over AJ?

[Nachomamma8]

Hiraki does have a point with Gamma; there are plenty of things that he's done this game are questionable enough where my floating townread on him doesn't make sense.

The outing of mason partners is understandable to a point, but it's also not like Gamma has seen any mason claims confirmed scum by someone requesting a partner claim, so that's a bit sketchy.
Pointing to the three-man Eric wagon with two masons and Creeps as the reason he was voting Creeps is obviously flawed reasoning; pointing out that there have been three man wagons by town on town before shouldn't actually be something that I had to point out.
I don't like his reasoning for Creeps being someone that we had to PL at point because of his distrust of the masons, especially when his distrust wasn't something that was actively pushed.
I didn't like his vote from Creeps to Fitz to Creeps, but it looked weird and wasn't really all that scummy (not that there was a sudden influx of support for Fitz that would have made him pressured to join).

[Nachomamma8]

I still would like to hear Hiraki's reasons for townreading AJ, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Creeps is lynch bait and the counter to hiraki

Creeps isn't exactly lynchbait; Creeps being the counter to Fitz has taken away most people's lust for lynching him.
I think that calling Gamma "essential clear" is an oversell based on the evidence we have in front of us; I'm not willing to take it at face value that Fitz "never busses" unless I do the legwork myself. I do think that most people could see that he probably isn't getting lynched today, which is why Hiraki pushing him from a scum perspective is strange.

From a town perspective, I do think that some of the things that Gamma has done this game are weird and warrant questioning; do none of the things that I pointed out in #1517 stand out to you?

[Nachomamma8]

slam dunk scum

I've tried to talk about the reasons I've seen for Hiraki today - are there important pieces that I haven't addressed? Do you understand my perspective on what I have addressed?

[Nachomamma8]

Hiraki scum isn't going to hard defend his scum buddy. Casting shade on him but not voting is the most common form of distancing that I've seen.

It's also fairly common for townies to end up elsewhere while scum is getting lynched; there's nothing in his ISO that implied that he should be voting Fitz over Creeps, who he attacked a good deal more.

His reasons for creeps weren't very good. Nobody's reasons for creeps have been good. It felt like a pl day 1, and it feels like it again today.

Do you seriously think we caught 2 scum day 1? Got one to l-1 and have the wagon fall apart onto another scum?

Seems highly unlikely

Hikari's view on Creeps doesn't really have anything to do with why I don't want to lynch him today. I agree the Creeps is town. I don't think Hiraki's reasons for wanting to vote Creeps are good.

[Nachomamma8]

IMO Aristo needs to fullclaim

No.

[Nachomamma8]

I will explain Aristo in depth when I get the chance to.

[Nachomamma8]

Aristo, Hiraki, mind voting AJ with me? As far as catchups go, that one was particularly pitiful.

[Nachomamma8]

Wow, I came off as an ass there. Sorry man!

But really, I don't see a good reason to vote Hiraki.
Why is that a good wagon again?
Can we shift it somewhere else or is it basically decided for the day already?

We can shift it. I think that we should shift it onto AJ.

[Nachomamma8]

Walk me through the logic of how him believing new players don't get scum when he claims to have played for 7 years. I think I get what you're going for (he's new, thought new can't get scum, ergo isn't scum) but I'm not really seeing it, especially when he claims to have a lot of experience.

He thought that site newbies couldn't get scum, which is fairly common as far as "other site metas" go. 7 years of experience also doesn't mean a ton of games which is something you should know by now; you should also be able to tell that he's probably a newbie by his play style regardless of what he states in thread.

[Nachomamma8]

Hiraki - opted to not vote fitz after stating he would

This isn't really accurate; he said that he could vote fitz but kept his vote on his primary scumread.

[Nachomamma8]

If you vote AJ you can procrastinate as long as you like

[Nachomamma8]

When you're an experienced player you can generally tell when someone knows what they're doing and when someone doesn't.

[Nachomamma8]

And 7 years and some sites is much different than 7 years on others (and playing lots of games doesn't always translate to skill).

If you've played basketball before, you can tell how much they've played simply by watching them; if they've spent 7 years playing and still can't lay up the ball properly, they're a newbie.

[Nachomamma8]

kk just read Eric w/e slot that is seems town to me he's adorable "can we role claim?" "what is d1" awwww <3

And, I'm sorry, but when you read these Eric posts did you assume that he played a ton of games?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho is a near-confirmed mason.

We have three days left. How much longer are you going to sit on your vote?

[Nachomamma8]

Aristo, Hiraki, mind voting AJ with me? As far as catchups go, that one was particularly pitiful.

the one he didn't make yet?

i can't atm tbh

What do you think about the reasons I brought up against Deer?

It's also not like he hasn't had time to catch up and yet the only thing he's able to provide is his ridiculous reasons for reading Eric as scum - do you believe a town player here with any measure of competence should be reading Eric as scum for the reasons AJ is?

[Nachomamma8]

I mean I guess that I just don't understand your approach right now; at the moment, you're stubborn without being willing to put in the work to show why you're stubborn; your current approach is currently leading to a point where you get lynched over AJ because you have what amounts to a fair to middling gut town read on the slot despite the nonsense that they've posted so far.

[Nachomamma8]

I just don't see what you find scummy about that post when Aj's logic seems to add up yes eric was acting new but he claimed to have experience so that contradicts what's so BAD anout the post in question

He was holding him up to "he's been playing 7 years" standard instead of just reading the player. I don't think that AJ would read Eric's posts and get anything except for the conclusion that you drew from reading them

[Nachomamma8]

You know what, I REALLY don't think Aj can be scum if they don't know WHO THE MASONS ARE. That HAD TO have been discussed in the scum PT.
VOTE: Hiraki

AJ has also claimed to have read the mason reveal.
Which means, regardless of alignment, AJ had access to the information and missed it. How does that make him town?

[Nachomamma8]

Hiraki, if you really are townreading AJ, you should lay out your reasons for townreading him; as it stands, you're going to make yourself get mislynched today when you normally wouldn't and AJ will get mislynched tomorrow after he avoids the lynch today, which is a poorer outcome for town than either making the case for him being town or hammering him today.

[Nachomamma8]

You would think the person at L-1 would be more frantic/trying harder if himself and his tr were the top 2 lynch choices when it's clear Aj is also a good wagon.

Alright that does it for me

Intent

You'd think that Hiraki as scum would be more willing to vote his counterwagon when he's in danger.

[Nachomamma8]

AJ hasn't even given his summary yet and hasn't done anything that's actually scummy. See my discussion with xSonia on the difference between what he said and what people think he said.

I don't see how you can scumread Vedith fairly so I don't know how to defend that.

@nacho: Yeah but we're at a little more than a day and 6 hours with xSonia already declaring intent - there's a point where you gotta understand that even though Gamma is literally the scummiest person in the game, you gotta die for him to be lynched D3 wink wink nudge nudge

I'm not going to hop over to the other wagon because it might be nicer

@xSonia - I've been the leading wagon for about the entire day (so about a week now) but this was before you replaced in so I can understand why you didn't see that

AJ's scumread on Eric is miles away from his typical approach to reading people as town. I can very easily see him as scum fabricated that read because it's garbage. You say that he hasn't had a chance to catch up, but he has; he said he was done with finals, he said that he had free time, and still he's produced nothing.

Deer was also in the game, Deer also had a bad scumread on Eric, Deer had a very weird interaction with TwoFace where he went from scumreading him to townreading/sheeping him in a single post. Deer also put you above Fitz in his final reads spew despite not saying anything about you before and having Fitz above you previously.

Your flip doesn't clear AJ. AJ's scumflip manages to clear you. You pretend that there isn't a case on the slot, but the reality is that you've given up and haven't bothered reading it; there's no reason to blame you not buying the AJ lynch on town when you aren't meeting us halfway.

[Nachomamma8]

You would think the person at L-1 would be more frantic/trying harder if himself and his tr were the top 2 lynch choices when it's clear Aj is also a good wagon.

Alright that does it for me

Intent

You'd think that Hiraki as scum would be more willing to vote his counterwagon when he's in danger.

Would you vote your counter wagon if it was a tr or try to get a new one going?

If I was town, I'd be explaining why AJ was town and I'd continue pressing my Gamma case.

If I was scum, I wouldn't have fabricated that dumb read on AJ in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

As I told Josh, I'll explain the read on Ari when I have time to. I haven't had time to and it certainly hasn't been a priority of mine.

[Nachomamma8]

Frank should almost always be protecting me during the night unless LUV decides to step it up.

[Nachomamma8]

AJ, if I don't get to it by the end of the day, I'll put my thoughts in the Mason PT.

[Nachomamma8]

Except he didn't claim one-shot.

[Nachomamma8]

Hiraki has no one to blame but himself. Still blacklisting him after this game.

Couldn't disagree more.

[Nachomamma8]

Please, for the love of God, don't lynch Ari before I return and have time to make my town case on him.

[Nachomamma8]

If this day gets railroaded into another nonsense mislynch the chances of us losing this game increase dramatically.

[Nachomamma8]

This is a typical Aristophanes scum game. He has 36 posts within two weeks, but very heavily peters out near the end (7 posts in 7 days).

This game Aristo didn't have time to peter out, but you can notice his content is lacking just fine (did Aristo express a single scumread in his ISO? no).

This game Aristo was my scum partner. You'll notice there isn't so much as an attempt at legitimate analysis here, and, guess what, heavy heavy power lurking.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Aristophanes doesn't post as scum at all (none of these games broke 50 posts, whereas here he's breaking 100). Aristophanes very severely struggles in content generation as scum (didn't really have scum reads in any of these games whereas here he's managed Creeps scum reads, pushed back against Hiraki in a significant way, he pushed LUV early, he pushed Fitz before pushing Fitz was cool, started to push AJ. There is not a single one of these scumgames where he comes close to looking anything like his play here.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm gonna try my hand at mafia again, and I just can't believe how many people ran away already!What did you people do to these poor souls!?
I don't have a clue why anyone would replace out with this role!

So, Hi all!

So, with Aristophanes being someone who isn't really comfortable playing scum, a move like this is something that's less likely to come from him as scum; it's a risk that can make a claim that he's trying to make down the road a bit more difficult to navigate. In particular, this is an opening that makes more sense as a VT WIFOMing than a PR WIFOMing; VTs would be doing it to increase the chance of them being night killed, PR would do it in order to decrease the chances of them being night killed because they'd hope scum would assume the first scenario. I don't think Aristophanes would be overly paranoid of drawing the nightkill normally, and so would be more likely to do this as a VT as opposed to PR, which weakens his fake PR claim down the road as scum.

Whoops, I've said too much... :S

VOTE: Fitz
Don't like the sarcasm in the jump on Io. I dislike the vote by Io on an empty slot, but I dislike your vote there more.

This is a pretty early push on a scum partner if Aristo is scum. And, also realize that this Fitz scumread held for the entirety of the day; it ended up evolving for more than just this, but Aristo never attempted to derail the budding Fitz wagon and joined it pretty much the moment it became more viable than Creeps. He also, despite the jailkeeper claim, didn't take the opportunity to back off Fitz for a minute. If Aristo was a player that was more likely to believe that he could carry as scum, I'd maybe be more willing to believe in a bus here, but since he isn't, it doesn't make any kind of sense at all.

[Nachomamma8]

you hate it when people call themselves town?

We actually have proof of it though. Fitz flipped scum

No, I hate it when people act as if they are conftown when they are not. The only one who knows you are town is you, so in a public VCA, you should be assumed unknown. Making yourself the same colour as the masons is a bold statement, and coupled with your adding yourself to Futz's wagon "In spirit" despite not being there really makes me think you're trying too hard to convince yourself you are town so you may appear that way.

Yes Fitz flipped scum, but how did this conftown you?

This is a post where Aristo is attacking TwoFace (extended from the Mathblade-TwoFace conflict where Aristo sided with Mathblade and was pushing back because he thought the "Mathblade-Fitz confirmed partners" deal was ridiculous). Aristo as scum doesn't push back against universal town reads in this way; most scum players don't. It especially doesn't make sense to make an enemy out of TwoFace when TwoFace is going to be alive after scum finish off killing LUV and I, but here Aristo is pushing back against him.

[Nachomamma8]

well that line of thought is bad because no one here except two face backed off

[Nachomamma8]

i certainly didn't.
i didn't have inside information.
does that mean that you think that i might be scummy again?

[Nachomamma8]

So checking in here. Context: Fitz has started his wall posts by this post, and I think the four-call scum post (with the bad line endings that made it look like a poem) had already come through. There's reason to vote him. To this point, Ari addresses Fitz on a vote for Io(deer)(my) slot's vote on an inactive, voting for Fitz in RVS. Once more later basically on sarcasm which was basically NAI all around. Anyways, there's reason for a Fitz lynch.

The reason to vote him falls through when Aristophanes doesn't have a scum game that allows him to carry on his own. I agree that the initial vote wasn't the strongest, but the followup (Aristophanes voted Fitz for his Gamma suspicion) seemed perfectly acceptable to me.

[Nachomamma8]

i mean, he still hasnt been what id call active in this game but those are fair points.

VOTE: aj

problem now is if we clear aristo and i accept vedith as town from luv/hiraki/others arguments, that leaves aj/gamma/sonia as the scum pool and i dont like the latter 2 much as scum. aj is the slot that sticks out to me though by far. :/



pedit: i was offline during lynch iirc and wouldnt have backed off regardless with a shit claim like that. now, i did not know scum jailkeeper was a role at the time (!) but even having that knowledge id have stayed voting as it doesnt really matter.

I don't really buy Vedith as town from LUV/Hiraki arguments. I don't come anywhere close to buying Vedith as town from LUV/Hiraki arguments.
Sonia I think is town; Gamma I could see as second scum if Vedith isn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Exchange goes together. Gamma advocates the PL on Creeps, Ari shows interest and in fact subsequently votes for creeps on the admitted PL. Both bad by Gamma and Creeps. Major issue is there's two posts between this and his fitz vote. First, one complaining about Creeps posting a huge wall for nothing more than a line response. The second correcting a grammatical mistake in his post brought up by another player.

I don't think that Ari advocating a PL on Creeps is scummy. Gamma saying that Creeps should be PLed for doubting the mason claim was questionable to me (because Creeps wasn't actively pushing the masons, he just said that he didn't trust us yet AND it's not like both of us were going to be alive in LyLo so that shouldn't be a significant worry of Gamma's). Aristo not mentioning why he thought Creeps should just be PLed shouldn't be a dig against Aristo (why would it be?), especially when his other posts in context demonstrate that his attitude towards Creeps has been "his posts suck, let's lynch him" more than "I think Creeps should be policy lynched in order to protect the game!".

[Nachomamma8]

He's changing to a creeps vote from his scum read when his vote change just changes the top wagon, not pushes it farther. Which is this awkward action that shouldn't exist given the lynch between a suspected scum and a policy lynch.

As you should know from your reading, the Fitz wagon had been stagnating for a while. Hiraki just switched to the Creeps wagon at the top of that page. Capitalizing on momentum there was a pretty normal move.

[Nachomamma8]

The concerning part that remains is that "Nothing town" doesn't mean "scum" and as short as that bridge is between the two, Ari does nothing to build it. There's no conviction to this wagon that is now entering a range that was about to guarantee creeps' lynch.

And really, looking back we can almost assume that Creep's wagon was a COUNTERWAGON to Fitz, a scum lynch. The one who perpetuates the force of this counterwagon is actually Ari, who basically swung the top two wagons by switching from a scum read to a Gamma-admitted (and not Ari-argued) PL.

"Nothing town" can mean scum or else the PoE line of play wouldn't exist at all.
Creeps wasn't a counter wagon to Fitz; Fitz was a counter wagon to Creeps. The reason why I'm pointing this out is because the Fitz wagon was dead in the water when the Creeps wagon started; it wasn't until I started pushing Fitz and getting support on Fitz that he became a legitimate wagon again.

I don't like you trying to build the narrative that Ari swung Creeps to save Fitz when that's nowhere near what actually happened.

[Nachomamma8]

btw, creeps is exactly the kind of player that PLs happen to. obviously i defended creeps and refused to vote him BUT there is definite justification for wanting to PL him day 1.

The fine reason for PLing him is "his posts suck, he's not doing anything". The mason justification wasn't.

[Nachomamma8]

This was weird, because it came AFTER fitz was lynched, but before the flip. This is basically targeting out Twoface, who did get a serious case of cold feet vs Fitz but did argue it the majority of the way into existence to begin with. Ari really hadn't been this loose since far earlier in the game, too, and was late to the Fitz wagon. But ODDLY ENOUGH he's got this assuredness that fitz is scum now, after saying he can't remember why fitz was scum earlier.

And, surprise surprise, AJ is ignoring context to push a bullshit narrative.

TwoFace posted that case as a reason for Mathblade to be scum.
Aristophanes countered by posting his case back at him (and putting the conclusion as he was scum). The ":o" should have tipped you off that it wasn't a completely serious case. It's also interesting that you ignore Aristophanes showing doubt about Fitz flipping scum around this point, which also would have been a decent tip off that the post you're referring to wasn't completely serious.

[Nachomamma8]

If you thought he was town, why didn't you state specifically why and try to drill that into those who were pushing him consistently?

Not everyone has the same play style.
Some players are aggressive. Other players aren't aggressive. Aristophanes typically isn't aggressive.

[Nachomamma8]

I told you is the same as I told y'all or everyone. Okay

I mean, it is...

That's like saying tweeting my political opinions to my followers on Twitter is the same as telling you my political opnions in real life.

You is an acceptable alternative for "y'all" for areas not in the Regional South. Alternatives are "you guys and you people" which are awkward/too informal for many situations; I have no idea how denying grammar rules became a part of your case on Aristo but it's certainly a first for me.

[Nachomamma8]

Vedith was exactly like TF was with Creeps when it came to Hiraki, just went about it the wrong way as he was unable to explain the town read he had on him due to the fact that he could potential violate site rules. It doesn't make sense for scum Vedith to defend a townie this hard considering the game state and how much attention not explaining the read could've gotten him. We have had two confirmed masons since Day 1. I see scum more likely to try to buddy one of us than opposed to Hiraki who doesn't strike me as a guy who would be easy to manipulate.

Vedith's defense of Hiraki was "he's town! why? ongoing games!". There is a town narrative for being unable to explain his town read on Hiraki, but it's not like he couldn't have attempted to defend him for other reasons, meaning that he could have possibly been scum defending Hiraki and hiding behind "ongoing games" so he didn't have to worry about derailing the wagon.

[Nachomamma8]

This game. In a hydra, 5 posts.

This game. 50 posts.

This game. 35 posts.

To Josh's point, I realize that Aristophanes hasn't done a ton a ton this game but this would be the game where Aristo somehow cracked his lurky scum meta in a huge way (his posts here also look nothing like his posts in other games).

[Nachomamma8]

Okay so a better example is

Say you're a bodyguard claim and the person near L-1 claims doctor that'd prob make you raise eyebrows cause there another protective right? As in want to vote them

Now if a VT sees a doctor claim they'll prob (at least most) back off at least a little bit cause it's a fucking doctor claim

see what I'm saying?

Sure, usually. With two claimed masons, JK claim doesn't mesh quite so well.

[Nachomamma8]

The bigger issue is that just because either of us say something doesn't mean it should instantly be sheeped.

[Nachomamma8]

No I agree I think you're not getting what I'm saying or trying to say

I'm saying that the reasons shouldn't be outted so others can use those reasons themselves for there own tr

Which doesn't make any sense to me.
You seem to be arguing that no one should give reasons for townreads so that people can townread people for their own reasons.

[Nachomamma8]

What's hard to understand? o-o

Why does Masons giving reads weaken towns reads as a whole?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not saying he swung his vote to 'save fitz', nor did I suggest that.

You said that Creeps was a counterwagon to Fitz and that Ari swung the Creeps momentum. What else were you trying to say other than "Ari saved Fitz"?

[Nachomamma8]

Masons, can you talk at night?

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

My suggestion was that he went from a vote he called scum to a vote he wasn't sure of/didn't have conviction written to yet that had the same amount of 'pressure' with his vote.

The wagon was stagnating pretty harshly. Ari voted a different one in an attempt to get something going. You're right that he wasn't voting his top scumread, but, as people aren't robots, that isn't a scumtell.

[Nachomamma8]

And he also didn't do the groundwork to say "This is scum, not just anti-town". I don't like the idea of lynching someone for anti-town play unless that's literally the only scummy play that exists, so being content with not explaining how it was scum for me isn't enough

Did anyone else on the Creeps wagon lay the groundwork for why he was scum as opposed to just anti-town? If they did, I missed it.

[Nachomamma8]

"Bullshit narrative" where Ari suddenly goes from uptight and having his own scumteam to convinced Fitz is scum and loose about the lynch? He more or less (actually, he DOES) compromise on a Fitz lynch because a 'no lynch would be bad', and keeps his scumteam as Gamma/Creeps/TwoFace. So no, the conclusion wasn't drawn that TwoFace was scum from that, Ari already believed that. What I'm looking at is before/after hammer vote and I DID notice the difference there. That's why it pinged me in the first place.

You're missing the point I'm making; read my response again, please. You're interpreting this post as serious when it wasn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Would you call Ari town and make this case if you didn't know his meta.

I would. Confidence wouldn't be in place to the same degree, but yes, I would.

[Nachomamma8]

It doesn't it just makes non masons giving reads easier to tell if there fake or real I don't see a downside to masons keeping their reasons for themselves when they can give all the reads in the world in the mason thread

LUV can't copy my reads, he can only paraphrase them which can lose meaning/take away from what I'm saying. If there's problems with my reasoning, then only LUV can point them out. If there are stronger portions of my reasoning, then only LUV can point them out. I can't respond to people's concerns around my reasoning if I don't know them, which I wouldn't if I only gave reads in the Mason thread.

Town is stronger when everyone is contributing, and so holding my reads instead of talking about them in the open makes us weaker. If you are worried about people following my reasoning instead of forming their own, challenge them on it. If you're worried about people not contributing because they think they can coast by on my contributions, challenge them on it.

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Sonia

Really it's disappointing, but you've been able to provide no decent answers and instead insisted on going for lynch bait.

This AJ push is also similarly bad; he's pushing Sonia (formerly Creeps, the counterwagon to Fitz) because she wasn't okay with the Hiraki wagon at first and then hammered it. Willingness to hammer that wagon shouldn't be a scumtell when AJ was the main alternative to it.

[Nachomamma8]

Not sure what you mean by that.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: AJ the Epic

[Nachomamma8]

Hello! I'm sure I'm close to a prod, just dropped into say hello to Empking!

[Nachomamma8]

So when you unvoted - for the last time - you thought his lynch was inevitable? When then did you unvote? Posturing?

What are you talking about? What unvote

You claimed that you backed off once you thought the lynch was inevitable - this isn't true, you unvoted when Fitz claimed Jailkeeper and that certainly wasn't a reasonable time to believe that the lynch was inevitable.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that Enpking's entrance is interesting. On one hand, the fact that he's attacking Josh/TwoFace is an odd move for scum, but, on the other hand, would like to establish more that he believes what he's pushing. I'll be back in full force tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

holy shit this game is frustrating

[Nachomamma8]

Emp a lot of your logic is you either misrepping things or just outright lying and trying to twist it to your advantage and the way things keep progressing I'm leaning towards the ladder
You should give a reads list before someone omes and gives intent on you

Open your eyes.

If Empking was scum, he'd be intelligent enough to realize that going against two town reads and suiciding against them isn't doing shit to his advantage; there is absolutely no reason why him putting forth arguments that you don't agree with immediately means that he should die before I have a chance to catch up fully when there's no way in hell that I'll be here tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Guys Empking just scum slipped lmao! Get this: he confused two post #s. A townie would need to pay much more attention, but a scum can just active lurk and coast the game which he is clearly doing. Any townie would know the correct post numbers, it's a scumtell he confused them!

So the reason you're mislynching here is because Empking confused two post numbers?
I don't think that this is anywhere near alignment relevant. Townies fuck up numbers. Scum fuck up numbers. Both town and scum can "active lurk and coast the game"; you can't tell me that there aren't townies this game who aren't doing just that.

[Nachomamma8]

that was complete sarcasm and empking already acknowledged it was sarcasm. posted because i was getting fed up with how ridiculous his arguments are.

anyways: Nacho, I'm confused what you're saying and what you want to happen here.

Empking replaced in two days ago. There are now 4 votes on him and 2 intents to hammer.
Don't you think that it would be prudent to give him more time than that?

[Nachomamma8]

You're giving emp too much credit.

You're not giving me enough credit. I'd like the opportunity to read the game in full and post my reads. I'd like the opportunity to read Empking and see what I think of what he's posting. I'd like to avoid mislynching for the same reasons we mislynched yesteday.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean, I don't have time to explain myself eloquently, which is why my thoughts at the moment are coming across like macaroni and dog vomit, but I would appreciate the opportunity to explain what I'm thinking at my leisure before I die. That's it. I understand that Empking feels like a great lynch right this moment but if he's a great lynch today he'll be a great lynch tomorrow; there is no reason not to wait and let me give my last will.

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't actually read the game yet, but as it stands:

Town:
Aristophanes - Nacho's read
Nachomamma8 - Mason
Lil Uzi Vert - Mason

Slight town:
Gamma Emerald - Having's votes
xSoniaNevermindx - Nacho's read

Slight Scum:
TwoFace - Hasving's votes seem like the basic - dump a vote on a partner for distancing because you don't want to bus play

Scum:
Aj The Epic - Nacho's read
Joshz - Like big time, like hugely, like blindingly obvious. He scream scum. Maybe, that'll change once I read his posts but so far it screams 'invested in the game; trying to play to win; not actually engaged in scumhunting'

Vote:Joshz

If Empking is scum, there are two things that strongly stand out to me.

First of all, the entire reason that Empking is scumreading AJ the Epic (likeliest mislynch if town) is because "my read". If Empking was scum not with AJ, his highest priority would be driving through the AJ mislynch. If Empking was scum with AJ, his highest priority is getting cred for his partner's lynch and preparing to go the distance. This read accomplishes neither of those purposes; giving the read over to me allows him to vote AJ, sure, but no one's giving him cred when AJ is lynched and no one's being convinced by "I'm sheeping Nacho".

Second of all, I've alluded to this before, but Empking's attack plan is beyond utterly insane if he is scum here. The two reads Empking has pushed since he's came are Joshz and TwoFace; after the masons, these are the two most universally townread players in the game. I suppose it's possible that Empking as scum set out to manipulate just me for a day (not likely, that's a dumb as hell strategy for the reason you're all seeing before you now), but he's a savvy enough player as scum where he realizes that this path of attack isn't getting him anywhere. The only thing that makes sense from Empking as scum here is him attempting to suicide, which he'd have no reason to do regardless of who his partner is (partner gets better cred if he looks townier as he goes down), and the only person he could be attempting to save for a day here is AJ, which doesn't make sense because AJ really shouldn't make it to endgame at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

And as a addon to that last train of thought, notice how Empking has continued to raggedly pursue TwoFace and Joshz through every town and neighborhood despite it clearly being poison to his survival; contrast this with AJ's backing off the Eric/Joshz slot once everyone told him it was an absolutely garbage push to make. Town believe in what they're pushing, which is why Empking is holding onto these very inconvenient reads until the bitter, bitter end whereas AJ dropped his push the second it started to threaten his survival.

[Nachomamma8]

Read his posts. Haven't changed my mind. Although he was less invested than I thought; how has he not been called out on it from what I'd read before I though the active lurking was going to be more subtle? Plus, the fact that he's twice planned his night kills in the thread.

It actually did reduce the probability I have for him being scum. Since, surely I must have missed something that cleared him for him to get away like this.

Now, while I don't have the time to make this point the way I want to make it, I want you to look at some of Joshz's posts that could give Empking the impression he holds here:

ive only read 2 pages so far and i think io's scum rofl

VOTE: Gemerald
(Yes, I do this just to bug you)

I dislike the immediate demand for a partner claim. That is not good play and benefits scum.

Creeps, why are you not buying the claim?

Never do. Ever. I once doubted a proven jailor claim on TOS. I don't trust.

Lack of trust is as bad as too much trust. Caution is required for proper play, but this goes a bit far man! Link, town has to work together and form trust networks to win! Trusting nobody is arguably antitown.

Why the vote on Eric?

I play the same way. Guilty until proven innocent prevents a scum who manages to become lock town from winning.

ok full disclosure: i only skimmed
town {misa, luv}
slight town {twoface}
null {frank, hiraki, gamma, aristophanes, tvd, creeps}
slight scum {vedith}
scum {scumdearsaretasty, fitz}

sorry but io's page 1 posts are fucking awful and scumdearsaretasty's content has all been mediocre / hasnt changed my mind on it. fitz has been covered by twoface. vedith is null himself but i sr'd twiszted so its a push forward from that. hiraki is probably slightly more scum than the other nulls but potato potato hes active. creeps is closer to null but ive already sr'd him and led his mislynch once this week only for a JOAT flip, i dont intend to do it again. his play is pretty close to NAI. if you lynch him its policy because i doubt hes scum. misa/luv obv mason claims for NOW, but note i sr'd luv a bit before his claim so they arent inno yet. twoface makes good arguments against fitz + i like him defending eric whos town and it felt more genuine than hiraki.

VOTE: scumdeers

what is your plan if creeps flips town? its a complete waste of a lynch. he is nai lynchbait.

also im voting hiraki what??? i guess that was eric

I thought I posted regarding mathblade but apparently I didn't. Huh.

There's someone in the game called nacho mama?????

He wants an Io-slot lynch iirc

And yet he's the lone vote on Vedith?

i have a very, very strong scum read on twiszted, and vedith hasnt exactly been a super strong townie. i encourage you to read through twiszted's content itt, its awful.

We have under a day to reach majority and get a lynch. What makes you think that people are going to see the light on Vedith and suddenly vote him out if you're not going to put in the work to get it done? Who else would you vote as a compromise?

i already said id potentially vote hiraki out of the 3 current wagons. i would also most likely vote for fitz, scumdeers, and frank just for idling so much as attention is off of him, though i dont think id vote anyone else.

Post dinguses

Unvote spam bot

VOTE: fitz

But anyways I don't necessarily object to a hammer but I want hiraki to answer my questions first at the very least

Josh has a lot of posts. I think that Josh has been putting work into the game. The reason why I've liked Joshz's contributions is because of things that he brings up that adds to cases/observations that make me feel he's being genuine - early scumread on Twisz, a few points he's brought up on Vedith, a few points he's brought up on Deer - what I don't see in his ISO are big dense walls; he's more of a real-time interaction person in that his brightest moments have come from when he's sorting out the game with others and that's a hell of a lot harder to pick up on out of context (and it's hard to keep context when catching up at a blitz pace).

So while I don't agree with Empking's read here, I at least understand where it's coming from (contrast with the AJ Eric read with didn't have a shred of truth in it), and I don't think that the case needs to be expanded upon a whole whole lot; Empking as town isn't known to be one of the GREAT EXPLAINERS and I can understand forming an initial gut read and not being able to put a bunch of hard evidence behind it and then expanding on it and evolving the read later.

[Nachomamma8]

Gamma got Having lynched. Nothing forced him to. He chose to do so. It's not impossible for it to be a last-minute hard bus, but I highly doubt that. Plus he's not trying to get cred from it, and if it were a scum-tactic that would have been priority #1.

Next, Empking's interactions with Gamma don't make any sense whatsoever for scum partner or Empking!scum Gamma!town. If Gamma is town to Empking's scum, then it doesn't make sense to close off a mislynch option as hard as he did here; all reasonable paths to victory have Empking voting mislynching Gamma to a win and that gets considerably more difficult if he has to walk back on words such as "Gamma got Having lynched" to get there. If Gamma is scum, then tying himself that hard to Gamma when he has AJ as the wide open mislynch option doesn't make sense; some people might go "scum would never buddy that hard", sure, but usually what happens is at the end of the day paranoia eats you alive. Empking is aware of this.

[Nachomamma8]

My solve rn is aj and Empking so it doesn't really matter which is lynched first. However, I disagree with your logic. Empking's TwoFace case makes some ok points, I could pass it. However, not only is his case on me ENTIRELY that I'm active lurking, he is voting me instead of the actual case. His reads stayed the same pretty and post read and he is selectively replying and has been caught wrong multiple times. I think your scenario makes more sense with Empking voting TwoFace and me being his partner read and second lynch; not otherwise. I also don't think myself and TwoFace are good partners even If YOU think one of us are scum, Twoface's partner would be one of the people calling him lock town.

Nacho, it is not impossible that i'd lynch aj first. I just think that if either aj or Empking are town I'd rather have aj alive since he can admit when he's wrong.

I don't think tha

[Nachomamma8]

My solve rn is aj and Empking so it doesn't really matter which is lynched first. However, I disagree with your logic. Empking's TwoFace case makes some ok points, I could pass it. However, not only is his case on me ENTIRELY that I'm active lurking, he is voting me instead of the actual case. His reads stayed the same pretty and post read and he is selectively replying and has been caught wrong multiple times. I think your scenario makes more sense with Empking voting TwoFace and me being his partner read and second lynch; not otherwise. I also don't think myself and TwoFace are good partners even If YOU think one of us are scum, Twoface's partner would be one of the people calling him lock town.

Nacho, it is not impossible that i'd lynch aj first. I just think that if either aj or Empking are town I'd rather have aj alive since he can admit when he's wrong.

Empking is putting a hell of a lot more into the game than AJ was right off the bat; AJ's been here for 13 more days and yet only has 14 more posts than him. I don't think that his vote on you is great, but having a stronger case on Two and voting you isn't a scumtell; it's not like you're getting mislynched and TwoFace isn't and it doesn't make sense for scum to avoid voting the stronger case for any particular reason. He's been caught wrong multiple times, fine; I think everyone's been wrong about things plenty.

Please just give me the AJ lynch today. Give Empking a little more time to post and catch up since he's generating content at a fantastic rate so far, and let me have this one last lynch before I die.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: One question that I think is important to answer before you die. Since I know Luv is so convincved that I am scum from the super-power supposition that he won't read this post I can feel free acknowledging that I know nobody has bother reading the part of the thread that they are calling me a liar over. If they had they would pointed out that you voted Having shortly after you got Two to link his case. Propter hoc, and all. Were you convinced to vote Having by Two's case?

And as a general point. People keep saying that 'everyone' was convinced by Two. Is anyone happy to claim that they were simply sheeping Two with their vote in particular?

I initially voted Having because of Two's suspicion there (before I read the game); I began the push in earnest for my own reasons once I started reading.

I don't think that Two overplaying his role in the Fitz lynch is a scumtell; I think that it's something people do often when they are excited they caught scum.

Would you mind voting AJ for me? I already had Hiraki martyr yesterday, time is dribbling to nothing, and I would really, really love to lynch scum today.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, who do you think is AJ's partner? I want to lynch there.

Gamma, who I will also lynch instead of Empking.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't feel as strongly a sr here as I do Gamma/Aj
I'm not against this lynch it's just not my pref'd choice I'm not gonna kick and scream over it though.

You don't have to kick and scream; let me take care of that.
Just please vote one of AJ/Gamma instead. I prefer AJ, but if we can swing a Gamma lynch then that's A-OK with me. I just want to give Empking one more day.

[Nachomamma8]

If you want to talk about work off the bat sonia won't even read the thread. :/

Nacho, give the plan for when you die. Who do we lynch in a scum flip from aj (gamma?) AND who in a town flip? We should also get another reads post from you detailing how confident out are in every player being dead. Everyone seems to respect your play; it's important for that to be here.

I will lynch aj for you if you're 100% sure. I think it's a mistake, but I will. This is if TwoFace and luv agree.

Can't be 100% sure in a game of Mafia; I feel pretty confident that AJ is scum but, again, it's possible that I'm wrong.

All of the remaining energy I have left is going to be sorting the group outside of Empking/Gamma/AJ; the biggest question mark outside of that group is Sonia as I feel pretty damn confident in TwoFace/you/Aristo outside of the mason group but am glad that Empking is digging into TwoFace to help bring him back to the surface.

[Nachomamma8]

Other than the fact that you're tunneling the shit out of the game right now,

Alright nacho, if I'm scum with gamma, why is gamma the only person I'm currently pushing.

Consolidating towncred. It wasn't a vital move when he was being townread, but when he became a universal scumread it became decently important for you to make that distance so one of you would have a better shot of going it alone.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll make sure to post full reads when I get home today, which is late but is gonna happen.