STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[TheFuzzylogic99]

I am certain Mastin is town...there is little reason for Yume to fake claim Mastin as town. Is it possible...yes but I don't see it being likely. Unless there are two scum left there is no way Shiro is scum.Plus Shiros push on me screams bad town push as opposed to scum push to mislynch

That leaves
Almost
RR
MOI
Random
Grapes

Almost is town.......Scum Almost could of easily of town read Grapes or said he got a no action on Grapes when first asked. I don't see why a scum Almost would fake the whole scenario about not getting an a result PM
from Vasoon and drawing more suspicion on himself. He was already lynch meat. Everything he did in the PM pointed to town. He asked several times to die ...... As far as he knew I was going to shoot him, There was little reason to think I was going to shoot Far. In fact it was pretty much a last minute decision . I had all the intention of shooting Almost. Grapes has a ridiculous VCA . I don't see him as scum. Also Shadow taunt seems very much like scum bragging about a town getting vigged . It possible he was trying to protect his scum buddy but I don't see that in how it read.

That's leaves
RR
MOI
Random

I sont see MOI scum

that's leaves
RR
Random

[TheFuzzylogic99]

Vote RR

[TheFuzzylogic99]

unvote

RR verses Grapes so much reads as TVT,,,,,,,

Vote Random

[TheFuzzylogic99]

my gut is screaming that Random is the last scum...so much so I cant ignore it

[mastin2]

And if you think this is in any way an exaggeration? Let me walk you through EVERY Reasonably Rational post this phase.

@Mastin2: You're wrong. I'm not going to argue with you point by point, unless you really really insist. There are more important things to figure out, and, to be quite frank, a disgusting number of fairly obvious reasons why your position doesn't make sense, some of which have been mentioned in thread a couple times already.
What I need for you to do now, Mastin, is put on your mod hat. Look at the game. Look at what we know, the flips we've seen. Take in the totality of the game state, and the course of action parts of the setup and the flavor of the game essentially GUARANTEED town would take. Do that, and answer the question: Why would we EXPECT Farside to be a threat?

"Mastina, you're wrong. Also, this is why farside was supposed to be scum even though she was town."

What I need for you to do now, Mastin, is put on your mod hat. Look at the game. Look at what we know, the flips we've seen. Take in the totality of the game state, and the course of action parts of the setup and the flavor of the game essentially GUARANTEED town would take. Do that, and answer the question: Why would we EXPECT Farside to be a threat?

Requoting the same thing.

Mastin. You realize that if we were scum we had access to the same empowered shot that Fuzzy had access to, right? So why would we need Fuzzy at all? The rest of everything you're wall posting falls apart at that point.
Since you want to be stubborn, and since you state you believe only one scum remains, I'll ask you plainly: what in this game setup that you have seen so far makes it balanced? How do the scum handle the very large amount of slots that will never be lynched going by the assumptions we have used this game? Look at the scum power level, including the three kills they got by event. Now look at how many kills were stopped by town or gem powers/events. Now count up the slots which would never be lynched under any circumstance.
Every assumption you're making rests on a false foundation. You can walk us all the way up to the gibbet and put the rope on and pull the lever and when we flip town, all you'll have accomplished is completely wasting a day and pushing us a step closer to losing what

should be

a slam dunk.
Then there's a few other facts to consider, just as it relates to us:
1.) Our initial concern about Farside was that she would take her win on M/LYLO and hand scum a win. We decided then to try and give her that claimed win as fast as possible so that she couldn't do that (if telling the truth) or she would reveal it to be a lie (if she refused). She refused to take the win (which, if you do the math, she could have had yesterday, exactly as we said), and started throwing outright lies into her posts. That didn't jive with her claims, and pushed us into believing she was the answer to the balance issue. So there's no contradiction here Mastin. If you had been, you know,

playing the game

, like the rest of us, you would have seen that happen. Hell, if you had even properly read the thread, you would have seen it.
2.) The only reason that the game isn't over with a scum win right now is because we're not scum. The list of things scum walked into that we knew about is so long that positing a scum!us requires you to be claiming that we deliberately played against wincon numerous times. But we're not scum, and we were smart enough to work with only confirmed people and relay what we knew and leverage it, and the gems were also smart enough to make good moves that took advantage of the scum team's ignorance. So your attack about talking in PTs ... kinda falls flat.

So now we're left with a situation you need to re-evaluate seriously. We're town, and we're obviously town. I'm not the setup/mod genius you are, but I know enough to know that the amount of slots who could never be mislynched in this game is too high for there to be only one scum left and that's the only threat. Either there's extra scum with power we haven't seen yet, or there's another explanation. We thought Farside could be that other explanation and were wrong. After a long game of being right repeatedly, it would be cool if you didn't crucify us for being wrong once and instead actually pay fucking attention here.
Slots that would never be mislynched under the assumptions we've all made about this game, barring some kind of awful play: You, Yume, Gems (MoI, KC, Xykfu, Random, ?), Titus, a potential power copy of Titus as a 2nd IC - There's a couple more slots conditionally speaking. Kraska could have played more actively and obvtowned it up, for example, but we think that was intentional lurking to try and make it to endgame due to the ability to pop IC at LYLO thing. In any case, it's 8-10 slots in a 25 person game.
So the ball is in your court here. You can go back and review the game and realize that we have indeed been gamesolving all game long and that we did indeed have good reason to believe Farside was an extreme threat after she refused to take her claimed win con when we were tentatively viewing her as a lesser threat. You can realize that all the slots that scum could never get mislynched doesn't line up at all with the observed power level of everything we've seen. If you get that far, maybe you can help us figure this out before we see a game over and we lose post, because right now you're going to drive all of us off a cliff into a loss, and frankly we've worked way too hard for that.

"Mastina, you're wrong. We are town. This is why we are town. Also, this is why we were wrong about the setup, and are continuing to push this paranoia idea, even after we were wrong on farside, which we were totally justified on."

Except we gave reads and thoughts for how to proceed if we died every single day, and we even told Fuzzy to shoot us last night if he had any doubts, and then gave thoughts on how to proceed when he saw our flip. But you know ... buzzwords are good, right? (Especially when someone just pointed out that you are only considered clear because of something actual known scum said and did).

Okay. So this one was addressed to grapes. It's still saying the same thing though: "We're town, and this is why we are town."

Perfect example of scum sitting back and waiting for the tide to turn in their favor before magically showing up with a long post and lots of research to push their mislynch, just at the right time. Please don't be suckered by this obvious scumplay by Grapes. Like for real. Lynch this scummy shit on the spot. Obviously pre-prepared post coming in just at the right time to push a mislynch and re-direct any suspicion. Scum play 101 by someone who has spent the whole game doing the same kind of thing.
VOTE: Grapes
Thanks for scumclaiming Grapes.

First post of theirs which can be considered content. If you are extra-generous that is, in calling their OMGUS, "We're town being voted for!", "we're using buzzwords after having condemned grapes for using buzzwords", "we're invoking a double-standard for attacking grapes when mastina is doing the same thing and she's town", as being content. Like, to use a buzzword appropriately, this post was projecting: there is a player who has spent the whole game redirecting suspicion, but it sure as fuck isn't grapes; it's Reasonably Rational. But okay. Fair enough, this post was the first which wasn't "mastina is wrong, and we are town" type. I'll give it that much.

Who are you shooting if RR flips scum?
That's the interesting question.

That's interesting indeed.. how certain you are that the game has TWO scum left alive at this point. (Otherwise; if RR flips scum the game ends. Right??)

Interesting doesn't even begin to describe it. It's a scum slip. As far as I'm aware,

we

are the only people in the game who have even seriously considered that there might be more than 1 scum left, and I only just posted pointing that out to Mastin and urging her to consider the facts a short time ago. Grapes swooped in with an obviously prepared post to put the 3rd vote on us (and the vote is naked as a 2nd post to distract from the 1st post being pre-prepared), but then there's #11536 where Grapes has as an implicit assumption in the post that two scum remain.

Second non-defense post, and content, which is posting the ridiculously-absurd idea of a scumslip which is quite frankly a shitty argument beyond all shit which they should know better than as town. (I knew exactly what grapes meant with that statement, and it was not scum-inclined.) Especially since the only way for it to actually be a scumslip is if RR themselves are scum. (Grapes asked what Fuzzy would do if RR was shot and flipped scum. That can't be a scumslip if RR was shot and flipped town, by definition.)

Nice attempt at a save. Giving you genuine props. Devious play from start to finish.

Third post of that kind, and just about the only post of theirs I have no issues with. (It's an entirely neutral one: neither good nor bad, just there.)

So making multiple posts in a row in a panic is what? Keep up the buzzwords though. It's kind of amusing. I mean ... you basically scum claimed with the prepared post and the fake "oh crap I forgot to vote" follow up naked vote post, then contradicting your pre-prepared post a few minutes later. Do you want to tell us who your partner is and just surrender? There's no path to victory for you. Save us all the time?
P-Edit: But he totally made his partner's claim for the event "true" and cleared you, right Grapes?

Fourth, i suppose, but it's basically just restating what's already been said and is more on the defensive. (As grapes said, it was indeed flailing.)

Let me die like a man tomorrow if I'm wrong.

Just let me live one more day and I swear it will all work out, he says. LOL.

Five, but utterly fucking hypocritical given that Reasonably Rational is BEGGING for their life.

We are going with my plan bc its the best plan we have and town have been making too many mistakes

There's a glaring (like a gigantic halogen spot light glaring) problem with your plan. Let me know when you figure it out.

Fuzzy's plan was to lynch RR, vig grapes by the way. And that was actually a fine plan, until Fuzzy got clarification that he was indeed out of shots. The plan wasn't bad, in fact it was nearly identical to my own. So while this isn't a "mastina was wrong, we are town", it's a "Fuzzy, you're wrong", so close enough.

I'm attempting to prevent you throwing it away. We're town and just our mislynch alone is almost certainly not enough to cost the game. If you shoot another town tonight, then expect tomorrow to start with a scum win message. The only condition upon which I want to be saying "I told you so" to you is in the post game of a victory.

"We're town, and you're wrong." Also egregious, because Fuzzy's plan?

vigging RR's top suspect

.

@grapes: What case? The wall of VCA? Neither head of this hydra respects VCA(because we know that any competent player can easily manipulate it), so I'm not certain what sort of response you expected from us. We tunneled farside because it was CLEAR to us that she had to be a malevolent third party, period, and we were fighting against two conftown who REFUSED to even consider lynching her. In addition, who exactly was there left for us to scumhunt? We concluded A50 was town on D4. We concluded Shiro was town sometime shortly after that. We concluded Fuzzy was probtown after he didn't take the kill on Snarky. That leaves you, but again, the entire fucking game's assumption that scum!TWIE+scum!Skybird deliberately AVOIDED the opportunity to generate wifom AND gain information about town actions by 1) Skybird choosing to submit her true actions, OR 2) Skybird submitting some other actions, and TWIE choosing to change her actions to her real ones...and that's without even including the fact that you're almost certainly lapis, and a leftover, and thus have no reason to care who wins at all, AND legitimately make sense as a "potential" scum slot to balance out the double digit number of slots who were never getting lynched.

"You are wrong. We are clearly town, and were in the right...in spite of farside's flip proving we were wrong. Which was totally not our fault, by the way. It was totally hers. Also, in spite of saying there are two scum left, we're saying everyone except you is town."

(Wholly unrelated, but I just realized that this game has surpassed Smite as having the most posts of any game on site.)

Fluff post, but technically counts as number six.

@MOI: A50's ability said any abilities could not fail. It did not specify whether that excluded factional abilities, and based on the verbiage used by the role PM's we've seen, I assume that means factional abilities were also empowered.

That's a pretty bad assumption that makes me wonder why you would just blindly assume such as opposed to asking like I did.

Because I don't have any factional abilities, and fuzzy had already demonstrated a claimed vig earlier in the game, and there was only one scum kill, so it's actually IRRELEVANT, because 1) If fuzzy's scum, and didn't have an additional shot to use, then we KNOW it was empowered because it worked on farside last night, and 2) If fuzzy's scum, and DID have an additional shot to use(and when I say additional shot, I mean a personal shot, rather than a factional one), then he used the one that A50's power would work on.
I'm confused by why you believe it actually matters? There was only one kill last night, when Fuzzy claimed he would vig, and the death was on the target he told A50 and myself that he would be targeting(which, btw, he didn't tell us until AFTER the deadline for action submission had passed iirc(I'll double check this)). That means one of three things happened. 1) Fuzzy is scum, and could not use both his vig shot and his factional kill 2) Scum CHOSE to skip the kill. 3) The scum kill failed.
If nobody expresses a reason for the scum kill to have failed, then 2 is most likely. If 2 occurred, it's MEANINGLESS, because A50 had already claimed, in thread, that he was going to be tracking last night. ANYONE in this game is smart enough to realize that as long as fuzzy didn't shoot them(which they obviously couldn't control unless they had an empowered roleblock or something), holding their shot would mean the kill he made would cause the game to go to a 4 man or 6 man mylo, as opposed to a 3 man or 5 man lylo...that is, in short that their kill that night would be a risk in exchange for sculpting the lylo playing field.
I'll ask Varsoon, to make sure(because you're right, I should have asked since I have access to a PT showing me what that effect was, so he can tell me in private whether or not it would affect a factional ability), but your chasing your tail about something that I'm pretty sure is irrelevant.

I mean if anything this was a fucking scumslip: Reasonably Rational "assumed" that the scumteam's shot would be empowered, instead of asking about it. One, this violates their nature. Two, that is NOT the assumption I would make. V later told us that it just so HAPPENED to be the case, but if given the choice between assuming an ability would empower factional abilities and assuming it would not, the latter is far more common. But this is more of RR on the defense. Deflecting away from the issue.

And if cerb "concluded a50 was town day 4" LOL. (Hi lack of paranoia) Why hasn't he been shoving a case and WHY WAIT UNTIL AFTER I VOTE THEM TO MOVE ALL IN. Doesn't come from town.

We defended A50 a long time ago the first time someone pushed him. It's in our ISO.

Seven, and just about the only defense/clarification from RR I have no issue with.

For part of the supposedly super-savvy Hydra on mechanics the fact that you think it doesn’t matter is damn odd given that you endorse the “2 scum left” hypothesis. Especially since you are ignoring the possibility that two scum means there is by default a Leftover who could have joined the Mafia.
Which means that a fourth possibility exists which explains the lack of two kills last Night –
1. The Leftover cannot make the Mafia scum faction kill and Shiro was bubbled.
Especially since you voting Grapes who basically claimed the only possible Leftover role.

Can we just not with the passive-aggressive shit like the first clause of your post? That would be cool.
As for your theory that the leftover cannot make the faction kill ... what makes you posit that?

More defense from a valid point: if RR really did think there were two scum left, why didn't they think of that? MoI had a good point, in that RR's "alleged" super-savvy mechanics powers are shut off. And this is another deflection from it. I suppose this one can't count, though, so technically it's eight.

Hmm. That's actually an interesting possibility that I hadn't considered at all. I suppose it's possible? I mean, from my POV shiro being bubbled accomplished nothing, he was essentially conftown to me already, by virtue of the failed shot on you, so I don't find any argument regarding any other reason for the missing kill, besides choice or fuzzy is somehow scum(which he isn't), to be especially compelling.

"I am saying you are possibly right while also saying you are possibly wrong so I'm not actually saying anything at all except giving contradicting ambiguous feedback that is open to interpretation." But also not a defense, so nine.

Do you even know WHY we concluded he was town on Day 4? We've expressed it repeatedly, surely you're aware of our argument?

No problems here, and ten.

It's a red flag regarding US that YOU don't care enough about the positions of people you're positing as scum, and the legitimacy of the case you're making on them, to actually be aware of what positions they've held?
There's been no reason to prioritize pushing you, and it was only yesterday, when MOI essentially confirmed that you had claimed Lapis, that a number of possibilities opened up. There were a LOT of slots that were FAR more likely to be scum than you, and we pushed and lynched those slots.

This is more of the "you're wrong, and look at how we were totally justified in ourselves being wrong".

From the moment Fuzzy decided he was going to vig A50, and A50 decided Fuzzy was scum, we were working to convince them each that the other was town, because we were sure they were(though less sure on fuzzy than on A50). When it comes to a vig shot,

there's no reason to argue with the rest of the town when you're being dumb and wrong and ignoring the points we had already made when you can just convince the person making the actual shot.

While this is eleven, I would like to point out, once again, the bolded runs contrary to what was in the thread. The town consensus, from MoI and me, was to vig one of RR/Almost50/grapes. PRIOR to that, the town consensus was to vig Shadow_step. Neither happened, and RR was directly responsible for both. Because of this: they convinced the person making the actual shot.

One sec, I'll actually just go grab the post drixx made from the PT we had with 50 and Fuzzy(the text of it), and that'll reiterate the reasoning there.

"Here, let me get the PROOF that we were right!"

Below is what Drixx said in our PT to get A50 and Fuzzy to stop tunneling one another.
[-snip-]
What exactly is this buried treasure? The fact that we were wrong?

"See here? Here's the proof that we are town! In spite of us being wrong. Which was totally not our doing."

Oh, you're talking about Drixx not lending the same weight to fuzzy not killing SS, and Shiro knowing about MoI's kill immunity, as I did. We talked about it a bunch. We both agreed that fuzzy COULD have left SS alive specifically to take the lynch for the day, and Drixx believed Shiro was paying so little attention that he could have missed the information Titus gave us both about MoI's role. Our degrees of certainty were notably different on these matters though.

I don't exactly have issue with this post, but it still falls under the branch of clarifying their own actions as proof of their alignment.

Seriously? Cerberus and I have a disagreement about one slot and that's even surprising? Like ... Shiro ignored at least a half dozen requests to confirm information and then came into the thread and asked us to confirm something to defend him. That's exactly what led to what you quoted, which I wrote.

This one is much the same, except I hold issue with the blame pinning.

Nobody is lynching you Fuzzy, ESPECIALLY if you have another shot(which will ya know, NEGATE the concern mastin has about ending up in a 4 man mylo, and allow us to clear through all suspects). Shiro and Random are on board with it, nobody else is, therefore you aren't getting lynched.

So while this IS in fact twelve, I'd like to point out the contradiction with Reasonably Rational's earlier statement: earlier, RR fearmongered and said that if Fuzzy vigged again, scum would win. Here, instead, RR is ENCOURAGING Fuzzy to if possible vig again.

Really? You're going to wander into trust tell territory now? Wow.

Since this post was devoted to Almost50 defense, it's thirteen...but I've raised my grievances with RR's declaration of grapes trust telling and why I say that's a scumclaim from them.

Sincerest apologies. My memory hasn't been so great since the concussions. For some reason, I thought you were the one who said the scum team was stupid to kill Yume and had helped town by doing so. (Although amusingly in hindsight the scum team DID help us by killing Yume as that let Xykfu take out Skybird, who had a very strong role). The rest stands.

No issue there, though there's not much which would be one. So fourteen.

It actually goes far beyond this. I looked into this at the time and made a note of it. Skybird ASKED Xkfyu to ally her. It wasn't "close to the end of the day", there was plenty of time for other options to come up, and she could have allied with someone else, or attempted to. Why is this important? Because if you look at that day, guess who Xkfyu was lined up/had asked to ally with BEFORE Skybird said anything? Twin Wings. You know, the slot S_S replaced into. In other words, scum. So, if A50 is scum, NOT ONLY did the scum team attempt to ally with Xkfyu TWICE after learning his ENTIRE ROLE, AND THAT ALLYING WITH HIM PUT THEM AT RISK, but they PUT THE SLOT THAT HAD LESS SUSPICION AND A STRONGER ROLE AT RISK. This isn't the actions of scum who know XK's role and powers. This is scum attempting to use Skybirds gem checking power to see if Xk was a gem, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT KNOW HIS ROLE.
Thanks Fuzzy, that reminds me...something everyone who keeps PUSHING that the people who suggested a farside lynch over a S_S one are suspects seem to be missing: S_S COULD NOT SUBMIT THE KILL, AND COULD DO NOTHING ELSE. Why would ANY scum partner put themselves out on a limb to delay his death by ONE phase? They would have gained quite literally nothing by having fuzzy shoot shadow while farside was lynched, and would have lost A GREAT DEAL because fuzzy would become conftown, and they would be suspected for defending him.
peditx2: You're confusing the event that killed Yume with the Cluster. Please see earlier in this post and you'll see a very simple implied way to handle things. Drixx mentions the trust tell thing because in a game he modded, someone used that exact argument, that they NEVER bus people. If you NEVER bus people, and have a demonstrable history that never bussing is true for you, then it IS a trust tell, because if you ever push scum it means you're town 100% of the time.

While the first is applied as an Almost50 defense, somewhere along the line it morphed into an RR defense. The rest though? Very clearly: "You're wrong. And this is why you're wrong. See how town we are?"

Hi Mastin2. So Drixx messaged me because he knows I absolutely relish taking apart really bad posts(and make no mistake, your last few posts are shameful), but unfortunately I'm simply not in the mood to wade that deep into bullshit. Sorry.
I'll deal with, well, everything tomorrow night possibly. I was actually working on a post earlier today to specifically point out where you're going wrong on your setup speculation(by going through every single flip we've seen so far and everything we know about the setup), but then I realized...if you can't see all this yourself, having me point it out to you isn't going to make you change your mind. It's just going to make you circle the wagons around your pet ideas.
I will, however, take a moment to note one thing: You're comparing this game to Gistou. Do you know what abilities the anti-town factions had in gistou? 9 members, split over three factions, all three of which could recruit AT LEAST one town, AND the "masonry" could become scum. If there are only 5+1 scum in this game(which yes, flavorwise makes perfect sense, but you'll recall in SU, I was QUITE adamant about the possibility that Lapis could be scum by flavor, and that STILL HOLDS TRUE HERE), how exactly does that compare to a game which had 9 scum+cult mechanics?
Think about that while I sleep. I'll see tomorrow if you took my response seriously, or with the deliberate misinterpretation you applied to my earlier question about why we would expect Farside to be a threat.

Pretty unambiguous here. "Mastina. You're wrong. I'm not going to even both telling you why you're wrong. But here's why we are totally justified in our paranoia, and are not wrong even though farside's flip just proved we were wrong."

Specious and bullshit argument since we were onto SC early and in particular I spent time forcing him to interact and then got him to basically word spew shit his pants when I said he had waved the white flag. Furthermore, I had my eyes on TWIE before anyone else in the game. I believe as early as day 3 I was making a note (I believe to A50) to watch and see if TWIE pounced and engaged and to go after him hard if he didn't by a certain deadline. That's not even in question. You can't just make shit up because people can go look, even in a game approaching 12,000 posts.
Fuck off with that bullshit. I don't angleshoot as scum and you know it. The definition of a trust tell is using confirmable self-meta for gain. I'm particularly sensitive to someone saying "I never bus" because it came up in a (fairly) recent game I modded. Logically it's not a moddable offense (albeit just barely) because just because a person has not bussed in the past (or no evidence of it can be found), it does not mean they have not done so in the current game.
It

IS

; however, really fucking dirty play. It's the same thing as a trust tell, especially if one can find all of his alts and takes the time to check all of his games and finds that he's never ever voted for a teammate as scum. That would make him unlynchable in THIS game, even if he's scum and bussed the shit out of people.
So how about you fuck off before you come after me about ethics, when you're openly cheering on homophobic posts, yeah?

This one's a goldmine. For a start...you know who else was making case after case against SirCakez? Oh yeah, grapes! It's utterly fucking hypocritical to call grapes scum for doing the same thing that they did. Also, the point about being one of the first on TWIE is utterly false. I did an iso on them. It's nowhere to be found. All there is, is defense of TWIE. If you want the proof, I put it in 11965. Then there's their defense of their scumclaim. Can't get much stronger than this in terms of "Mastina is wrong. We are town, and this is why we are town!"

Where I come from, when it's used with a negative connotation it's considered an anti LBGT slur. I believe that's how it's viewed on site when used with a negative connotation also. You can adjust or not adjust how you post as you see fit. I'm not the morality police and I don't report people for crap. I just say something and hope people can find it within themselves to restrain themselves and keep the rhetoric related to play and not people. I think if we were all just talking in an MD thread, most (if not all) of us would say we'd rather just be friendly with everyone we play with.

---

Also, our plan that I spent two days pushing was to lynch Farside and have you shoot Shadow. The goal was to try and confirm you and getting you with A50 was a way to make sure your shot couldn't fail. You ended up shooting Farside because nobody would go with our plan and (I think?) because you realized we are probably right that A50 makes no sense as scum.

I mean the first half is defense but isn't something which is game-relevant defense. This post contained other non-defense stuff, but is still a defense post if for no other reason than this last part I've left in. "We were totally right. Even though we were wrong. It was not our fault!"

Really don't like how fuzzy has sorta molded RR and I into one person.

Can you answer my earlier question?

Fifteen and nothing wrong.

I'm tired because it's 5 a.m. and I haven't slept yet. I'll go look at what A50 told us months ago, but my memory says he told us that Xykfu started as a leftover 3rd party survivor with the option to join the Crystal Gems. Since you've been outed as a leftover and which gem you are is also outed, we assumed you also started as and remained a 3P survivor until Farside flipped town. It's possible I'm mistaken and A50 didn't say survivor, but I'm nearly 100% certain he said leftover 3rd party.
I was kind of hoping you would say yes because that could have potentially put us back in a position where we can ensure we remove all suspects and ensure a win.

"This is why we are totally justified in our paranoia."

Asked and answered MoI. Cerb and I all but had an argument about it in the thread. I have a long noted history of soft spot for 3p (Which Mastin knows, and I think is mostly basing her entire premise upon). He was the 3P who stole the game in SaGa. So we tested her by offering her the claimed 20 point win con so she could GTFO as quickly as possible and there would be no chance she would get to her points on M/LYLO day and end the game by taking her win. Not only did she turn it down, she backpedaled and started flailing. I know all of you saw this because nobody was in thread calling Farside town as I was pointing out that her actions didn't line up with her claim and that she was therefore lying and pushed for her lynch.

Set that aside anyway, because isn't Mastin's narrative that we masterminded the farside kill via Fuzzy in advance? Why the hell would I have spent days trying to get you guys to realize she was a threat (legitimate belief; feel free to check our hydra PT for extensive discussion on reasons why after the game if you choose not to believe me) and eroding credibility on our slot? The narrative being pushed just doesn't make sense. It has us playing against ourselves at every turn.

As far as the issue with Xykfu and Skybird; it may be true that you had to argue Xykfu into triggering the event (although I have a note that says you guys thought it would be refunded and could be used more than once, so you might be overplaying the hesitance to use angle just a tad?), but that still doesn't explain why a scum team informed of that ability, including the stress requirement, would have chosen to kill Yume and raise stress and even put Skybird in danger in the first place. Go back and re-read when Yume was killed. You will see people literally mocking the scum team for doing it and saying they had helped town (which was unbelievably ugly and hurtful towards Yume, which I believe I said something about at the time).

The more likely scenario is that scum simply didn't know and had the ability to take out Yume, who was by then outed completely as Steven.

And yes, the argument could extend to our slot as well, but at a much weaker strength than A50. A50 knew the Xykfu information so far in advance that one cannot even argue that the kill on Yume was submitted during the night and just delayed until we saw it happen. One could posit us as scum if they conclude we were only informed of the Xykfu info after it was too late to stop the event which killed Yume. That's not the case, but just pointing out a fairly plausible scenario where we can defend A50 and explain why we have had him clear since day 3 without that being some kind of forced implication that we're also clear for the same reason.

We're clear (or at least should be) because of the totality of our play throughout the whole game. The only reason anyone is even positing us as possibly scum is because it's late in the game and there's only a few slots left who aren't confirmed Crystal Gems or town, and Mastin is wallposting arguing that we're scum. There's a LOT of flaws in her posts though. Like absurd logic holes you could sail an oil tanker through level flaws. Rather than shit on the thread arguing with all that, I thought it was better to point out why someone not confirmed(A50) is almost certainly not scum and then focus on who was left and that's how we ended up on Grapes. Process of elimination.

P.S. - As for the trust tell thing, I've recently had a game I modded ruined over almost exactly the same type of claim/phrasing. I don't want to shit on the thread about it any further, so I've left a note in our hydra PT and we can discuss further after the game if that's your thing.

Pretty unambiguous. "Mastina is wrong. We are town. And these are all the reasons that we are clearly town. Clearly. And in spite of mastina's posts being wrong, we refuse to engage her in why they are wrong. And continue to not really do anything, except insist that we are in fact town. Because yeah we are. Town that is. Because mastina is wrong, you see. And we were totally not at fault for being wrong about farside. Just thought I'd make that clear."

MoI ... just look at Skybird's role card. She was immune to everything but events. Why even put her at risk? It makes no sense.

As for your "spinning a narrative" comment; you're wrong. We're town so our play is simply our play and we reacted to and prodded and tested things as we figured the game out. There's a clear progression and reaction to things as we learned them and figured them out. I mean ... did you forget that we figured out the Crystal Gems existed before anyone (but the Gems, of course) had any clue?

As far as Farside goes, you can't have missed the post where I asked her to clearly tell how far she was from getting her claimed wincon and then giving her a plan to get it. And given how her points ACTUALLY accumulated (which she lied about), she could have gotten that personal win and exited the game which is what we originally wanted. It's clear from the fact that we told Random well before that time that we feared her leaving the game and causing a scum win and the fact that I literally offered her the win so that we could eliminate that as a threat ... that we really did initially view her primarily as a lesser threat. It was only after she rejected that and started spewing lies into the game that we assumed she was lying about the whole "I'm compatible town who can have a personal win that won't hurt you" thing. There's a night and day difference in how we viewed her before and after, and it's clear as day if you read it in context.

The game in question is here. The discussion of the "I have never bused" assertion made by one player with the listmods went on beyond the time Mina closed the thread, so I didn't address it in that thread as planned, but you can clearly see that it was a problem and that it ended up in a ruined game. You can read the latter part of House's ISO to see him complaining about the other player. I had more PMs from that incident than any other game ever. You can also, fwiw, find House in the banned thread for his actions in wrecking the game.

"MoI is wrong. We are totally town here. And this is why we are town. And we were totally justified in our stance. In spite of being wrong. Which wasn't our fault, by the way. Because you know, we're town."

It takes 5 votes to lynch and Grapes had 5 votes and wasn't lynched. He posted a bunch as if he were lynched. How could he possibly not be lynched and not know it? I can think of a couple reasons why he might not be lynched, but neither would be something he didn't know. @Grapes: Care to enlighten us?

Sixteen, though this sounds like RR already knew about my power almost. And had to pretend they didn't.

That's a stretch, even for you Mastin. You know how I am about ethics and mafia. Also, if you had bothered to go look at the game I modded that got ruined by almost exactly the same statement, you'll see it was a town player (House) who made a huge stink about it and eventually ruined the game and earned a ban for it. We're town, and I have the right to tell someone that they are wading into unsound ethical waters. The only reason the statement "I never bus" presented for gain (and it's the using it for gain part that makes it an offense, btw) isn't a trust tell is because it's referring to a LACK of action. Just because he claims to have never bussed (which may or may not be true, but let's assume it's true) does not mean he didn't choose to bus in this game. It doesn't logically follow. That's the only reason the Listmods didn't action the player in my game, in fact. It was a close call.

Shame on you for using the fact that I had a game ruined by a similar statement and the ensuing TvT fight that spilled into ANOTHER game and ended up compromising my game to the point where it had to be ended and trying to say that me bristling at seeing the same shit happen makes me scum. It is NAI for me. Regardless of my alignment, I say something when people violate (or wander dangerously close to the line) the site rules. And you know that because we've played together a lot, and you've seen me call people out for crossing lines a lot. Accuse me of angleshooting again and it's going to get ugly. I'm done taking personal attacks from you.

The fact that you are having to warp things way out of what they really are to try and make a case against us speaks for itself, frankly.

Another example of you twisting shit to try and make a case that just isn't there: my read and instructions about TWIE. You know as well as anyone else who has played with TWIE before that he has a low profile playstyle early. As town he jumps in and starts using the accumulated information to push people on contradictions and such in the mid game. I personally gave the "if he doesn't start engaging and making pushes by day X (it was 5 or 6)" as part of reads given to be passed along in case we died going into the first season finale, because we had our main ability outed. Nobody was going after TWIE on day 3 when I put those reads in the alliance for A50 to pass along. There's not even any plausible scum motive there because he just wasn't being suspected or pushed at that time. Prior experience with him across several games made me aware of how to sort him, and look ... he didn't engage and tried to lurk and use his event to get out of the noose. It's exactly what I predicted a scum!TWIE would behave.

But you're so desperate you'll twist anything it seems.

Like saying we were wrong about the gems. Say what? We were the first people (outside of the gems obviously) to realize that there was a third faction in the game. You didn't even catch on and in fact I am pretty sure you told us we were wrong when we told the game about it. We were also right that they were lying about their win condition. I was also personally right about what their win condition was (you can confirm in our hydra PT after the game) when I said there was exactly one win condition I could think of that would justify the lie, and you can go back and look: I told them NOT to explicitly out that win condition. MoI did so in what seemed to be an emotionally driven post. So contrary to your assertion that we were wrong about the gems ... we were, in fact, right about them every step of the way. Not only that, your assertion that we've been trying to undermine the gems all game is flat out false.

They were lying about their win condition, clearly. That's reason for concern to any rational agent. Varsoon went

way out of his way

to warn us not to try and break the game by flavor, so early in the game when there's a whole faction of third party who are lying, that's reason to be concerned. The problem with your theory is that literally from the moment MoI made that emotional post and outed the fact that they lose if scum take out all of us aligned with Earth, we've been working with them and the only negative thing said was me telling MoI he should have never revealed that info.

You're so wrong and off it hurts. I really don't care to spend my entire day dismantling your bullshit, so how about you deass your head and help us finish off this win. It's fucking offensive the shit you're saying and the way you're twisting shit to try and make it fit your absurd theory that we're somehow simultaneously masterminds who also happen to be complete fucking idiots.

~Drixx

P.S. - I'm sorry but no matter how you spin it, someone talking about someone else performing homosexual acts is inappropriate. In this case, it was clearly derogatory. I would expect you, of all people, to be on my side when it comes to saying that kind of shit has no place in a mafia game. Want to talk about that sort of thing in the speakeasy? Cool. Want to use it as an attack in a mafia game? Not cool. That fact alone should clue you in to how irrational you are being. You're acting and speaking against your own beliefs. Stop it and get your head in the game. If you want to talk any more about whether or not it's okay to say someone is giving homosexual sex favors to another player as an attack, save it for the appropriate time (after the game) and place (speakeasy or MD).

P-edit - The fact that you refuse to even consider the rational case on Grapes AND refuse to consider the things Grapes himself said is staggering. Who are you and what the fuck have you done with Mastin?

"Mastina is wrong. We are totally town here, and this is why we are town. And we were fully justified in our acts. In spite of how we were wrong. Because it wasn't our fault, y'see. But we won't really go into the details for why you're wrong. Because you just are. Thanks to us being town, of course. Because that's what we are."

Mastin ... you realize that we arrived on Grapes by PoE. Cerb said he's working on a post to address your (frankly terrible) response to being asked to put your mod hat on and evaluate what we know about the game so you would see why we assumed Farside was a threat once she refused to take the offered plan to get her the win she claimed, and then backpedaled and started lying. I would say that those aren't the actions of a town player, except somehow she flipped town. I can point out the math if you can't see for yourself, but she could easily have had 20 points and exited the game yesterday. If you say you don't see a clear shift in how we were interacting with her before and after that offer, you're a fucking liar.
As for Grapes; he's not the only suspect but is the one that makes the most sense to us in the current game state. You should read what he had to say because even though we started the wagon on him, he managed to realize we're town.
The only "pants on head" play going on right now is coming from your slot.

"Mastina is wrong. Because there's some magical mystical reason it must be grapes that is scum. Oh, but it could be others of course. Just not us. Because we are town. Totally. And we were fully justified in our paranoia, for these reasons. And it wasn't our fault we were wrong. Because, you know, we are town."

You have nothing left to offer the game then, by your own admission. We're town. We, in fact, asked fuzzy to shoot us if he had any doubts and left both Fuzzy and A50 with instructions on how to proceed if he chose to do that. We already put the gun to our head, and we arranged for that gun to be unstoppable (by asking A50 to ally with Fuzzy) on top of it.

Instead of alienating people, I'm asking you to re-evaluate. You're wrong and digging your heels in and getting ever more and more reachy trying to mangle things to fit just isn't like you.

P-edit:

The fact that you refuse to even evaluate other suspects and freely admit such is confusing to me. Your whole "If I'm wrong I'll sheep you" is a cop out. You ARE wrong and you're refusing to put your considerable skills to use in casing the other suspects (at which point I would expect you to realize you're wrong because you'll come up with an actual case against someone that makes sense), and I frankly don't get that. Have you considered that maybe the rest of us might be right? Presumably Grapes was informed of the benefit of allying with you, correct? So he told someone to hammer him and went through giving out instructions and telling the game that we and A50 are town and told the game how to proceed ... except he knew he wasn't going to actually be lynched and that was all a show. Have you considered that if the rest of us are right, you could be holding up the win out of sheer stubbornness in sticking to a bad case?

"Mastina is wrong. Because we are town, you see. Because of these reasons we submit as proof that we are town. And let's not forget, holding mastina to a double-standard to deflect her point about us. Which is totally cool, because we're really town."

So what you're saying is that only your pride matters. You realize that we've been mislynched ONCE EVER, and that's featured in our signature.

Individually, we also both pride ourselves on not being mislynched. There's a really good reason the people you listed who are town reading us are town reading us. I mean, for fuck's sake we got to Grapes by PoE and pushed the wagon on him, and even he said we're town. They aren't saying that because they like us. In fact, I think our snark and Cerb's outright arrogance and dismissiveness make us a lot less likable in text than we both are in person or on voice comms. You're the only one who is deliberately choosing to ignore all evidence that we're town and deliberately choosing to cherry pick and manipulate the FUCK out of all sorts of shit to try and say we're scum. Like ... if Yume hadn't specifically said that the moderator posted in a PT that you are for sure 100% town, I would at this point assume you are scum ... that's how irrational you have been with this shit.

You're really going to hold the game hostage so you can get us mislynched? And who's to say that you won't keep holding the game hostage to your whims after that? You don't seem to understand the alliance system because if you submit nobody and Grapes is scum and submits you, he gets your protection. Your little stunt here is literally giving a posited scum!Grapes all he needs to make it to M/LYLO, and if there are 2 scum (which is plausible if you actually invest the time to evaluate the game with all the flips we've seen and what we know) and the other is well enough hidden, your bullshit pride "I was lucky enough to be mod confirmed town to one person who told the rest of you, so you have to do what I say" stunt will

literally cost us the game

, which should be a fucking slam dunk win.

But so long as you get to keep your pride intact? Are you being serious with this shit?

"Mastina is wrong. We are town. And we're going to misconstrue mastina's points as being prideful. Because we don't need to actually answer them. We are town, y'see. We've been wrong, of course and there's reason to not like us for that. But trust us, we're town."

1) FARSIDE WAS NOT CONFIRMED TOWN. As a matter of fact, yesterday NOBODY was arguing that she wasn't, in fact, third party. NOBODY expressed a belief that she was LIKELY to be town.
2) As a direct result of 1, Farside was, in fact, AN EASY lynch. Do you know why that is mastin? Because any game state that ends in a groupscum victory necessarily includes the death of TWO of the unlynchable slots(3 unlynchables now, at most 2 posited scum, scum always lose in lylo if that game state does not change). That means that farsides "protection" by yourself and MoI was IRRELEVANT. In any possible Mylo/Lylo situation, neither of you would be likely to be alive, making farside a VERY easy person to get lynched.

To answer you about your insistence that we lay out a plan for the future(when you yourself HAVE NO SUCH FUCKING PLAN(which is primarily relevant in that this is essentially the same plea being made by you, that is "listen to us today because this is absolutely what we feel is the path most likely to lead to victory, and if we're wrong we have no idea how we should proceed"):

This is what we told A50 and TFL last night, and this is where we're at, because there is compelling evidence against any of A50, Shiro, and TFL as scum(while NO SUCH EVIDENCE EXISTS FOR grapes!town)
[-snip-]
In order of "strength of evidence indicating they are not scum": mastin>gems>A50=Shiro>TFL>grapes. In other words, you lynch in the reverse of this order.
It's arguable that Shiro should be lower, primarily because the bubbling clear is conditional on only one scum existing, and the other reasons to believe him to be town rely upon him actually keeping up with a PT between Titus and us, which is far from guaranteed; however, the simple fact that shiro currently possesses a "if we get to 4 left alive without having lynched any more scum and the game is still going, shiro is definitely town" ability means coupled with the other reasons to posit him as town, he should be far from a potential lynchee.

"Mastina is wrong. We are town. And we were totally justified in our actions. In spite of being wrong. Which wasn't our fault, by the way. Oh, and this is proof that we are town. We don't have to actually give current, detailed, thorough thoughts. Because, you know. We're town."

I actually know the answer to that question, in general at least(mastin should definitely check if her ability is special somehow, but I will warn you that she is definitely not above lying about how her role functions in order to manipulate town into taking the path she believes to be correct, ESPECIALLY if she's conftown and knows there is no downside to doing so).
Anyways, per Varsoon: 1) If an alliance is attempted with someone who dies in the night, no alliance is formed, and nobody receives any benefits from having an alliance. 2) If, after an alliance is established, a member dies, any bonuses the living member gained as a result of their own role as a benefit for being in an alliance remain, and any bonuses caused by the dead member of the alliance end.
Also, MoI, don't think I didn't forget your whole ultimatumlike declaration. I'll get to it when I'm home.

Discrediting of me, basically character assassination for no reason whatsoever. ("Mastina will lie for no reason at all.")

@Mastin - Random told you that we were working with him and legitimately gamesolving when we were allied. Just because you choose to ignore that and instead praise Grapes for suggesting that I was "sucking his dick" and somehow that made him say we were working on solving the game doesn't mean he didn't tell you the reason. He did. You just chose to exclude it from your ranting. Just like when you tried to say our meta is different than it is, you pointed to very old games when there are more recent games that contradict your point. You cherry picked to try and prop it up. The moment you sacrificed legitimacy and started manipulating information, ignoring anything that conflicted with what you were pushing, etc... you threw away all the things that give you a reputation as a good player.

We have zero interest in humiliating you, but if you push us to it, I'm sure I can get Cerb to set aside some time if I go through your entire ISO today and pull out every point and lay it out point by point to be deconstructed. It will end up being a gigantic wall and even though it will completely deconstruct and point out how illogical and irrational you've been and it will serve no purpose but to just make you feel bad, as far as I can tell.

We can also do a complete evaluation of our slot and everything we've done, with as little bias as possible. It's impossible for anyone, no matter how practiced a rationalist, to completely remove bias, but we can scrub most of it by continuously viewing our slot as if it were someone else. Much like going through and dismantling your arguments against us point by point, it would be a lengthy exercise, and so far you have not given any indication that you will budge from your stance, even if we do take the time to address your points one by one AND lay out the totality of what we've done this game.

The bottom line, for us, is that we've worked every step of the way to the benefit of the town, from how we used our event (which we could simply have never mentioned or used if we were scum and which resulted in you getting a gunsmith guilty on TWIE) to working with Titus (check every game we've played with Titus to see how contentious that history is; the ship PT from Space Dandy 2 being a place to look if you want to see recent and the ugliest it ever got) because despite the friction and frustration in the past, her particular way of utilizing different roles in synergy is her greatest strength. There's a reason she concluded we were town (and hey, Shiro is back in the game and can confirm that Titus did indeed grill the SHIT out of us, permanently steal our alliance ability, and decided we were town because of how we claimed it and asked for her to help us amplify its use by having her organize things and misdirect so scum wouldn't realize what was going on). There's a reason that everyone we've worked with all game long concludes we're town.

And that brings me to the crux of things: there is no world in which we are the last scum (as you are suggesting) and can win. There's 3 slots that will never be lynched and we know (as does MoI, and sorry for outing this MoI but I don't think scum can turn it to their advantage) that MoI can ensure that he's the one alive in any kind of last day scenario. Like ... MoI isn't bullshitting when he says there's a 100% guaranteed path to a town win here. Even positing two scum, the only way I see for us to lose is something like what you're doing right now, frankly.

"Mastina is wrong. We are town. And this nonevidence is the proof we are town. And these things which we weren't in control of? Yeah, those were totally proof we are town, too. Oh and that thing which all scum have (a town event ability)? Totally proof we're town in spite of how we'd have no choice but to use it as scum anyway and in fact used it to save our own hides from an early lynch. Which would've been bad. Because we're town, you see. And mastina is wrong. Oh and we couldn't be scum because if we were scum we wouldn't be able to win, in spite of how mastina laid out exactly how we would. You can ignore her because she is wrong. And we're town."

Did you read my last post?That is, the last post from Cerb? That post tells town what order to lynch in.

"Clearly mastina wasn't reading, so there's proof she is wrong and that we are therefore town."

And umm... thanks for illustrating my point that you are only paying attention selectively Mastin. We couldn't have possibly pointed it out any better than you did yourself by begging for something we already gave you.

"We're continuing to dodge and deflect from mastina's actual point and not give her what she asked for, but don't worry. She's clearly wrong. Which makes us town, by the way."

Headed 900 miles South.

V/LA this head until January 3rd, 2017

See you all next year,

V/LA declaration/fluff, so technically, seventeen.

@mastin: my reasoning for everything I've said has been laid out throughout the game, and if you note the timing, those short posts from me have all come when I've been at work and mobile, and I just c/p'd what drixx had to say in the past because I didn't have time to write an actual post.

"We are town. And the reasons are there! I mean, I can't show them right now because I'm busy

(note: this is not actually a sin but it's part of the explanation all the same)

, but they're there! Swear it, proof that we're town. And I'll give it, too. In spite of proof of being town not being what mastina was asking for."

@mastin: I believe the only thing we've said in PTs that wasn't brought to the thread was this: we didn't EXPLICITLY say that the reason Fuzzy shouldn't shoot on N7 was because if the town experienced 3 deaths(ml, scum kill, vig kill)+farside attained their win con+we had underestimated the size of the the scum team, town would lose. Drixx HINTED at it, but didn't want to express it outright. We DID tell the game that if fuzzy shot on that night, his safest shot was at SS, because SS as near-vanilla only made sense to us as part of a larger than expected scum team, therefore shooting at him ensured both three town deaths AND a larger than expected scum team wouldn't happen simultaneously, or were at least improbable to do so.
@grapes: I'm going to be reevaluating things, so I'll get back to you about A50. I currently feel that he's part of the key to ensuring scum can't win, since they have too many legitimate conftowns to kill through to get to him, so even in the worst case he'll be alive in lylo and NOT an easy mislynch, but that's all based on the thoughts I'm throwing out.

I mean this is the towniest post RR's made the entire day phase, but it's still got its issues. Namely that it's still not doing what I asked them to do. It's still pointing to their past achievements. And you get the added sin of opening up a back door, one which would involve not lynching someone who is impossible to lynch (grapes) and instead lynching someone who is possible to lynch. (To be fair, this is not something impossible from them as town, if the offer to genuinely reassess is in fact true. However, while genuine reassessment would be the town motivation, necessity at being unable to lynch grapes would be the scum motive.)

Vote:RR

This day will never end unless this happens.
RR I think you are town and you living will put us in this endless loop. If you are scum you fooled me.
We need to move this game forward.

Who else is scum besides tfl shiro? Is there anyone else that you have any real suspicion of? Not "I was forced to vote for this person because PoE", but anybody else whose actions you're suspicious of?

I mean, Shiro said that they think the vote's on town, but all the same this is an effort to make them move elsewhere. So while not exactly a "you're wrong", it's still a "we're town".

Oh, before I get into that, short version of my rebuttal to mastin:
[-snip-]
@mastin, or anyone else: Did I miss anything?
Also, sorry, that was way longer than I planned, and isn't even fucking important. *sigh*

Admitting to the sin does not make it less of a sin. In this case? "Mastina is wrong. We are town. These are the proof we are town. And this isn't what we should be focusing on, but I'm wasting time on it anyway. Because I feel the need to justify my paranoia. Which is totally right. Even though it has been proven wrong. Which wasn't our fault, by the way. Because we are town. For these reasons you see. Which aren't important because they aren't what mastina was asking for and still don't bother to address her real points. But they didn't need to, because ultimately it doesn't matter. We are town, and mastina is wrong, and showing that was totally worth it."

@grapes: We can talk. You asked me to get my head back in the game. That's what me going through the trouble of reevaluating EVERYTHING is about. Was there anything in particular you wanted to discuss?

Did I say another of RR's posts was the towniest? Take it back, this one is. Also eighteen.

@grapes: Do you actually want our answer to the reason why we were townreading A50(it exists in our ISO fairly recently, multiple times), or do you just want to hear what Shiro has to say about it?

I mean this doesn't sound like it's actually reevaluating, but it doesn't fit the mold so at least I can say it's nineteen.

Do you mean mechanically, or in terms of play? Mechanically, the skybird slot had good cause to be town due to their knowledge of steven D1(but I'll freely admit this, once we realized Yume wasn't explicit town, elegance wise it made a lot of sense for there to be one scum and one town in contact with her(though elegance wise, it makes a lot less sense that one of those two slots would be confirmed town to her, thus making it obvious(in retrospect) that the other was scum)). In terms of play, there was little difference in the early game. Skybird had more to say, but her posts weren't especially influential, which makes them as insignificant as twinwings lack of content.

This still is justifying being wrong. "We were wrong. But in principle, we were right! (Even though we had previously warned against using that principle.)"

Her push seems desperation-based. She's essentially pulling out all the stops in it. I'm having a lot of trouble parsing where the line between desperate entreaty because she sincerely believes this and outright attempted manipulation lies. I've said this before in this game(and she hasn't denied it): mastin isn't above manipulating the town, AS TOWN, to get them to do what she believes is correct. I KNOW she's doing things in this push that are manipulative(such as deliberately misinterpreting my VERY early question to her about why we might believe farside was a threat, and using very old meta that supports her position, rather than new meta which DOES NOT), but because I know that she isn't someone who relies solely on facts to push a lynch, I don't know if she's doing it for pro-town or anti-town reasons.

Continued character assassination of me, painting my case against them as desperation.

It's true I'm pulling out all stops for it. But there's no desperation involved. Merely exasperation, that we're

this fucking close

to winning and that nobody seems willing to believe me that all we have to do. Literally ALL we have to do. Is just fucking lynch RR. Painting me as needing the lynch (when I've specifically laid out EXACTLY why this is the lynch I would prefer and how I came to this conclusion, the polar opposite of me "needing" a lynch) weakens the legitimacy of my words.

Oh, and regarding the A50 vote: No voting will be occurring until I reread as much as I can of the living players ISO's at least.

Twenty. Not a problematic post, but also not a town post, in that this is something which is equally motivated by either alignment and thus null.

Thanks, and the same to all of you. (Also, I got my computer shit fixed! Yay! I'll actually do shit now!)

Fluff post, and technically 21.

Final count? Of 66 posts, 21 weren't "you're wrong, we're town, this is why" type posts, including three fluff posts among others. Okay. So I guess I did exaggerate a little bit. Instead of it being basically every post, it ended up being only 2/3rds of their posts. But you get the idea all the same. I probably could have made this wall much shorter, but oh well. You either read it and agree, or you read it and didn't agree, or you didn't read it and complain about me writing such a long wallpost.

[mastin2]

I hope you don't mind, but I've spent the last five or so hours on this game and it's 4:15 AM. I kinda need to get to bed. (Well I don't have much reason to wake up any time early tomorrow, but...I'm up much later than I should be.)

[Randomnamechange]

unvote

RR verses Grapes so much reads as TVT,,,,,,,

Vote Random

so yume wont lie but MoI, skybird and the rest of the crystal gems would?
VOTE: tfl
needs to get in as many lynches as possible if he wants to win at scum so he pushes me.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

huh......

Skybird was not a crystal gem as far as I can tell

[TheFuzzylogic99]

anyways I never said the Gems lied..... they are masons.....that doesn't mean that Vasoon didn't slip a scum into the masons.
I find your response very telling.....

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off am back from vacations ... ah sweet Hawaii memories ...

anyways I never said the Gems lied..... they are masons.....that doesn't mean that Vasoon didn't slip a scum into the masons.
I find your response very telling.....

1. Game is not bastard per initial offering posted by Varsoon
2. Mason scum is requires a Bastard game

VOTE: Fuzzy

I'll be going over the thread today and giving more feedback about posting while I was gone but this is pretty much where I have landed for today.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

MOI
Read the mafia wiki.... having scum in the masons does not make it a bastard game

[TheFuzzylogic99]

if you guys really think that I am this dumb.....to go after a gem when I am scum than I invite yall to vote for me........Really ..I invite death bc town seem bound and determine to lose.
I rather go down voting someone I think is scum than mindlessly follow the heard who repeatedly have lynched town and lynched town that would insure us a win......

[TheFuzzylogic99]

please please please MOI I beg you read the mafia wiki page on masons.......
you can think I am scum..I don't care I am just asking you to go and research the matter as I have,,,,,,,,,,

[MagnaofIllusion]

please please please MOI I beg you read the mafia wiki page on masons.......

I've read the wiki before. This is not my first rodeo. Do you think I haven't? Do you think what the Wiki has listed about scum Masons (that they specifically are not alignment confirmed to the other Masons thus making them effectively Neighbors not Masons) applies to this game somehow?

[TheFuzzylogic99]

Mason





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Mason
T-mason.png

Aliases: Monk
Templar

Alignment: Pro-town

Role type: Linked
Passive
Informative

Choice: none



Masons are a group of players who can speak to each other privately and know that everyone in their group is not a member of the Mafia. Whether the Masons' ability to privately communicate can be used at any time or at Night only is up to the moderator's discretion. The number of Masons can vary from game to game, and it is not impossible for there to exist separate Mason groups within the same game.

In Werewolf flavor, these are called Monks (most notably in the Open Setup Masons and Monks).

If there is one Mason, there is always another. A single Mason is equivalent to an Innocent Child.

Masons are the central feature in the Open Setup Friends and Enemies.

Variations

The Mason role has generated a fair amount of controversy and a few offshoots. Be sure you ask the moderator what precisely it means to be a Mason, as all of the below have been known to simply be called "Mason".

Most notoriously, some moderators will introduce Mafia-aligned Masons, taking the term "Mason" to imply that it is probable that the other Masons are Town-aligned, and not absolute. These nonconfirmed Masons are supposed to be middling in certainty between Neighbors (see below) and confirmed Masons; however, this is impossible to mathematically verify. Alternatively, moderators may introduce Werewolves into Masonries (and likewise Mafia members into Monasteries) without bastardry, as the definition of a Mason or Monk is that they are confirmed not to be a member of a specific non-Town faction.

The term for players who know each other to be Town but are unable to speak to each other privately is Best Friends, though this has fallen into disuse.

To contrast, the standard term for players who do not know each others' alignments but can speak to each other privately is Neighbors.

There is nothing sacred about the Masons being forced to talk at Night only; allowing Masons to speak at all times raises their effectiveness somewhat.

Normal Guidelines

Masons, regardless of when they are allowed to speak to each other, are considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided they are Town-aligned. A Masonry must contain at least two Masons.

Use and Power

The most obvious power of a Masonry (and Best Friends) is the mutual confirmation of multiple players as Town. Consider that a Cop can find out over the span of two Nights that two other players are innocent, and if the Cop roleclaims effectively, the Town wins three confirmed-innocent players on Day 3. A three-person Masonry, on the other hand, has that same number of confirmed innocents from the start of the game. In addition, while a Cop's innocent results are mostly only useful if the Cop lives to claim them and is believed, each of the Masons can mutually confirm the others as soon as the existence of a Mason is made evident. (For instance, if someone dies overNight and flips Mason, the other Mason(s) can still claim and be considered confirmed Town.) Last, Mason is difficult (but not impossible) for scum to fakeclaim, as they need to put up a scumpartner to be their fake Mason partner and hope that neither of them die over the course of the game.

Some moderators consider two Masons to be a roughly equivalent substitute for a Cop.

The conversational aspect of Masons is not nearly as good (as opposed to with Neighbors, where the conversation is a means to the end of discerning the Neighbors' alignments). It can be used to allow the confirmed Town players to confer with each other and play strategically during the Day - much like scum do, but with the intent of helping the Town and confounding the scum instead of vice versa. To that end, the ability for Masons to speak to each other amplifies the skill of the Masons themselves, but has no inherent power by itself.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

Easy answer

Vasoon........
are masons conftown in this game or is it possible that they might be scum


if Vasoon says that masons in this game are conftown I will get off the subject,,,,,,I admit I might be wrong

if you still want to lynch me than fine

[TheFuzzylogic99]

Vasoon
also would scum in the Mason make this game bastardized

Thanks

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm back home. I skimmed most of Mastin's posts because of the sheer absurd level of the tunnel. We've brought nearly everything we've said in PT working with people we trusted into this game thread, so her suggestion that we've somehow snowjobbed people in private is just fantasy, and even with those people going and looking and telling her so, she still refuses to admit that this is NOT my scum game (which seems to be the primary driver of her tunnel, as far as I can tell).

@Mastin: ISO is a good tool. You've missed the forest for the trees though. Nowhere is this

more

apparent than when you suggest that we (and by we, I mean me since I'm the one who ran the gambit on Farside to try and figure out whether we should be fearing that she would take a solo win and screw us in M/LYLO or if she was the missing piece we believe is necessary from our discussion of the setup) changed very suddenly from fearing she would screw us with her solo win to fearing she was a bigger threat. If you

HAD

read that part of the game, several pages,

in context

you would see that I laid out a plan and pointed out to Farside that she could (rightly, it turns out after reading the REAL way she accumulated points) be given her win and that we would like to help her get there and let her have it and exit in the least harmful way possible. That was the test. She refused, claimed she could not get enough points (a lie) and then started throwing outright lies into her posts from that point on. That made NO SENSE if she was telling the truth. I read her reaction to that offer as basically a claim of being scum or malevolent 3P trying to masquerade as mostly harmless, and from that point forward pushed for her removal.

It suits your purposes to put on hindsight goggles and blame us, but

NOBODY

expressed any belief that Farside was telling the truth. I am quite sure that the entire game, if they are honest and were paying attention, will admit that they thought she was lying. It's simply a matter of degree. Some didn't view it as warily as we did.

I could go on, but I think demonstrating that you are being irrational and not even being honest with the facts on just a couple points should suffice to make you go take a deep breath and try and get your head out of the sand, if you actually care to be rational and help us win this. If not, get the fuck out of the way. Seriously.



Now ... what should we do today? Let's look at what we have.

Gems: Magna and Random. Outside of paranoia or scum desperation, nobody has expressed any serious belief that the gems are enemies. I'm pretty sure we all agree we're never lynching them.
Town: Yume declared Mastin was mod-confirmed town in a PT. I see no reason to wander down the rabbit trail of supposing that is a troll. If Yume lied and we lose because Mastin is scum, then so be it.

That leaves the rest of us:

A50 - We've laid out why we think he's town. If that doesn't suffice, I don't know what I can say that will.

Grapes - By PoE we arrived at the conclusion he was the most likely scum. Cannot be lynched today due to Mastin holding the game hostage. In any case I want to look back through today after the time away and talk to Cerb. I am hoping something in the posts when he appeared to think he was being or was lynched might be telling.

Fuzzy - At the day start I would not have considered him. After being thrown under the bus (no discussion about whether or not he should have shot before the finale was had anywhere but in THIS thread, where I said he should make sure he could shoot on the finale to prove himself and where he was asked when his shot refreshed and ignored the question and later claimed ignorance when I asked why), and after seeing his posts today... I'm far less sure. Fuzzy has a reputation for unconventional play and this

could

be scum!Fuzzy exploiting that. I would like to talk to Cerb about it and see what he thinks. We've not really talked since before Christmas.

Shiro - If MoI asked the right questions and is correct in his conclusions, Shiro can only be scum if there are 2 left. Since this seems plausible to us, for reasons we already outlined, Shiro remains in the pool, although strikes me as a poor choice for TODAY.

Us - We're in the pool. Mastin has basically decided to ignore anything that contradicts her tunnel, but I believe anyone taking a rational look will see that we've been working all game at game solving and scum hunting, perhaps with the exception of me having a slight grudge fight with Grapes much earlier in the game. If the game does not end in a win before, then at some point we will have to be lynched and we recognize that. It should NOT be today though. The simple reason is that Mastin has admitted that she has no idea how to proceed and will just be passive and sheep someone else when we flip town and prove her wrong. So if we just accept our lynch today, it seems to me that Mastin will be useless to the game (by her own admission) and scum need only kill MoI and will have taken out the three slots alive who have consistently tried to lead. That's really the reason to keep us alive. I

know

that sounds conceited, but I am not trying to be arrogant in saying it. There may come a time, if we don't finish off this win before, that we have to be mislynched in order to take away the paranoia of our slot and leave the best chance to win and a solid plan behind. I do not think that today is that time.

And of course, since we

know

we're town, for us going to the gallows today has a 0% chance to result in a win, while since we view A50 as almost certainly town and Shiro as not realistically a candidate, then lynching one of the other candidates in the pool has a much greater chance to advance us to or toward a win.


I will talk to Cerb when he is available today. I know this day has dragged and dragged, but I think it would be of benefit to ensure that everyone can leave their thoughts and it is worth a little time to let folks do that as we've just gone through the holidays and may have fresh insights.

~Drixx

P-Edit: Fuzzy ... Varsoon can't answer that question, unless he says look at the flips in which case you will see that they are NOT confirmed town but rather confirmed to be aligned with the Crystal Gems. Even so ... we long since passed the point where we can afford to even consider that path. At this point, if the Crystal Gems win alone then we will lose and pay the price for not heeding Varsoon's warning about flavor seriously enough. There exists a possibility space where the Gems could be an independent faction and this game was three factions all vying for individual wins, plus whatever independent 3p win cons exist, and if that is the reality that we're living in, then so be it. I believe the claimed win condition because it is the only one I could think of that makes their early behavior make sense, and when MoI posted it, that read to me as very genuine. If you are right and I am wrong, you may feel free to lord it over me as much as you like.

[Reasonably Rational]

EbWoP: I totally left the first thing I said to mastin only half said. Sorry. I had a VERY long drive yesterday and less sleep than I should have before and after it.

ISO is a good tool, to be sure, but it has its flaws. Most notably it can strip away important context and lead you to reach conclusions that simply aren't reasonable in any way. You've missed the forest... (I believe that more fully expresses the thought I had).

~Drixx

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mastin

– before I go through the thread and respond specifically to everything I want to lay out the difference of why grapes not being lynched today can turn a lock scenario to a coin flip.

Premises of this analysis.

1. Grapes is Town as you suggest.
2. Grapes is the only character remaining who makes any sense as Leftover who can join / help the Mafia.
3. Based on 2 that there is only 1 scum remaining.

If you disagree with these premises pipe up. Otherwise look at the logic flow.

If we lynched Grapes today that leaves us with the following pools of players before a Mafia Nightkill.

Confirmed Town (4)– myself, Random, yourself and Shiro.
Not Confirmed Town (3)– Almost, RR, Fuzzy

Shiro becomes confirmed not scum do to the game not ending when Shadow was lynched and he was bubbled per Mod confirmation to me in conjunction with the above 3 premises.

No matter who scum kills at Night we resolve worst-case (excepting some oddball scum event that I don’t think is likely at this stage)

3 Confirmed Town
3 Others

We lynch one of the others (RR for example) and the Crystal Gems bubble one of the others (Fuzzy). Assuming successful Mafia kill going into the next day we have

2 Confirmed Town
1 Other

Game, set, match.

Now if we don’t lynch grapes today and scum kills you (which eliminates your magic MYLO/LYLO confirmation ability) we have the following situation the next day.

2 Confirmed Town – Random and myself
5 Others – grapes, Fuzzy, RR, Almost, Shiro

The only way to confirm grapes is Town under this circumstance is to lynch him. This means Shiro can’t be confirmed until after the flip during Night. Thus going before the Nightkill we have the following game-state

3 Confirmed Town – Myself, random and Shiro
3 Others – Fuzzy, RR, Almost

Scum kills one of the above rendering it 2 Confirmed to 3 Others. The Crystal Gems cannot bubble one of the remaining suspects because shooting incorrectly gives us a 2-2 gamestate which per the Mafia wincon ends the game for scum. So Town lynches 1 of the 3, scum Nightkills again (with the same risks preventing a bubble the next Night) and we are left with 1 confirmed and 2 suspects.

Thus a coinflip for the remaining confirmed player.

This is absolutely the math behind why Town grapes being flipped to me is a no-brainer. And scum grapes being lynched today is more or less a necessity as grapes-scum means with a partner means there is no lock path to victory as Shiro never becomes confirmed.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

you don't know if you don't ask. Yeah Vasoon might not be able to answer but you never know////

I am getting lynched today I don't really care.........As I said I rather die following my instincts than following the town at this point.
if I die being able to convince one person that scum could be in the masonry I will die a happy man

Going after Gems as scum would be a pretty big gambit ............

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
I am confused as anything on why mastin, Moi or Random are not dead, If I was scum I would make sure atleast one maybe two were dead. If all three are town than that makes it so hard to win...... No way would there be three alive at this point if I was scum . This is of course Wifom.

Maybe it it is me but I found that if obvious town players are alive when they should be dead than you have to consider they might be scum Many a time there player who seem obvtown are left alive when they should
dead than at the end of the game they flip scum . Not always the case but I have seen it happen enough time to make me suspicious.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

MOi what makes you think scum will make or will be able to make a NK given the record the last couple night>>>

[Randomnamechange]

you don't know if you don't ask. Yeah Vasoon might not be able to answer but you never know////

I am getting lynched today I don't really care.........As I said I rather die following my instincts than following the town at this point.
if I die being able to convince one person that scum could be in the masonry I will die a happy man

Going after Gems as scum would be a pretty big gambit ............

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
I am confused as anything on why mastin, Moi or Random are not dead, If I was scum I would make sure atleast one maybe two were dead. If all three are town than that makes it so hard to win...... No way would there be three alive at this point if I was scum . This is of course Wifom.

Maybe it it is me but I found that if obvious town players are alive when they should be dead than you have to consider they might be scum Many a time there player who seem obvtown are left alive when they should
dead than at the end of the game they flip scum . Not always the case but I have seen it happen enough time to make me suspicious.

mastin has done very little before the last couple of days. me and moi dont need to be killed for scum to win. they just need to take out the remaining town members as quickly as possible without getting themselves lynched.

[Almost50]

(Also, three: Yume more or less has known what my power was since D1. If Yume blabbered about it to RR--or even Skybird!--then scum would have known about it well before allying with Shadow_step. I told Yume my ally power was lynch related and many of the conditions for it.)

Are you arguing for or against my point? because this number 3 of yours only serves to illustrate my point more.|

In fact, are you telling me scum could have known about your ability from the word go, yet all those who allied with you were Town with the exception of S_S? In what world does that make any sense (for the scum not to try to make use of such a powerful tool they had the info about all along)?

[Almost50]

I can tell you why you'll never be killed in THIS game before LyLo/MyLo though, but I'm guessing you're bright enough to deduce it all by yourself.

I've run the math there. Scum want me dead regardless of who they are, so I won't be. (My power doesn't work during mylo, so no matter what, I stop being of use alive.) YOU, on the other hand......

My point exactly. If you care to actually read rather than skim I said you won't be killed BEFORE LyLo.

Also, what about me .. "on the other hand"?

Honestly, the way the way played out I wouldn't want you dead EVEN in LyLo if I was scum. I'd be gambling the game on you making the wrong choices/pushes and handing me the game on a silver platter. the fact you've been trying to force your views on us makes me feel I have not been only playing against scum this game, but also against you and our overwhelming will to monopolize the game and lead in a dictatorship manner.

Forgive me for letting it all out, but it's no longer about who's scum. It's about me feeling that I have played in this game, not having just booked a spectator's seat from the sidelines of the playground.

Sure, I made some bad calls. It doesn't mean I don't have the right to have my own reads and judgements. I am a person, Mastina. A human being.. just like you are. And I'm telling you once again, I go before the RR slot goes, just because.

Now the way I see it is Mafia should be played in a more democratic fashion. The majority have decided it's best to lynch grapes today. This will keep the game locked as Town win EVEN if RR is the last scumster (as you keep promoting). I don't see your point of trying to go against the tide EVEN IF YOU WERE RIGHT. We lose nothing still if we lynch grapes today and RR tomorrow, unless you believe here might be TWO scumsters alive in which case you'd be conradicting yourself still because (by your own admission) this can't be the case unless grapes himself was that second Mafioso alive.

So, once more: One scum left = grapes first then RR leading to a Town win. TWO scums alive = grapes first then RR and we might win or we might be looking for that one last scumster if the game doesn't end by then.

Whereas, RR first is throwing the game away if there are two scums alive and they are not one.

I don't know how much more clearer I could have stated this.