Mini 1859: D&D Curse of Strahd Mafia - Game Over

[shaddowez]

Hey all, weekends are V/LA for me as well.

I have no flavor knowledge, so thanks for that!

Do we think there's any sort of risk=reward mechanic? Ie is it possible that if the woods actually are more dangerous we may get something better out of that quest?

[shaddowez]

I'm kind of against either Jason or Shaziro having it at this point. It seems kind of odd that neither of them are really considering the mod could have changed up the items at all from what they're expecting.

[shaddowez]

It's not like a black mage will be a doctor, so if you can relate something to what it's possible equivalents are then you likely have an idea of what something can do.

I get the first part. Regarding the second part, this is Mafia, not D&D. I don't know if its the fact that I don't have the flavor knowledge that may be blinding me here, but I look at it this way.
Imagine this is some generic D&D magic item, like a Ring of Protection. We don't have AC here, so it has to do something else. Obviously it will be a protective ability in some manner, but that could be Bulletproof, or Doctor, or possibly even Bodyguard. I may be the only person seeing it this way, but from you saying things along the lines of "My class will benefit the most", it sounds like you

know

which of the three it would be.

If the flavor makes it that much more obvious, do you really think its more helpful to town to be this secretive about what it does?

[shaddowez]

Also as an aside, giving the items (in general) to strong town reads is a bad idea, because your just asking for the Scum to start killing them.

Again, I don't completely agree with this. This gives a protective a specific target (if we have one), and then scum either has to go after the not strong townread, or waste a kill on a protected target (assuming no strongman/lucky rb/etc).

[shaddowez]

Is being V/LA a valid reason for being targeted now, because I think that's the case with most of creature's list.

I'm willing to give the item to Pine or Dunn at this point. Pine because of whatever possible attunement/ability unlock there may be. Dunn because it's unlikely he'll get NKed based on his claim.

VOTE: Pine

I'll check in closer to deadline to switch my vote if need be.

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Pine

It's my understanding that the item passes on, on a lynch, before the night phase, and so can still be used. The person gets to select where the item goes. Let's kill Pine to see if scum took it for themselves, and if they're town they get to select who gets the item.

VOTE: Dunnstral

You're literally saying "Town helped him get this item, now let's lynch him to see if he is actually town or not." That's terrible, and I can't even fathom how that would ever come from a town mindset.

[shaddowez]

I've been kinda keeping up, but want to do a read through again and address some things in detail.

In the meantime, I'm starting to think Pine may be scum. A lot of his actions seem townie in nature, but they're coming across as forced. More detail coming on this.
Relatedly, I don't think I've ever been in a Clumsy game before, especially theme - does anyone know if he provides fake/safeclaims?

culted is probably my strongest town read, for multiple reasons. I could be totally off on my first reason, but I don't think scum!Vedith would have replaced out like he did. His tunnel on Shaz seems to be legitimately trying to get motivation and reasoning, and unless this is Scum theater, I don't see this as SvS. (Still trying to decide if I think it's SvT or TvT though). Lastly, the fact he's willing to ask if he's just dumbtunneling or not isn't something I see town doing.

I'm torn on creature right now. His activity post seems like busy work, but on the other hand the fact that he's trying to make sure everyone is engaged and wanting everyone to actually play is something that town is more interested in than scum. There have been other little things for me on both sides, but right now he's a town lean.

My other scum lean right now is Jason, he seems to be trying to hide behind the source material. Shaz is doing the same thing, but the key difference to me is how they acted in regard to the amulet once that came into play.

If anyone has anything specific they want me to address while I'm catching up, feel free to let me know.

[shaddowez]

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm willing to at least wait through N1 to take Pine out.

If Pine is scum and we don't lynch him, then scum definitely have the item tonight.

If Pine is scum and we do lynch him, then there's a good chance he gives the item to town as wifom, since whomever he gives it to will be a suspect.

So you're basically echoing Dunn's thought process on why to vote for Pine.

There's not so much that I could judge so far. I don't know how it's alignment indicative if we want to go to the shops, the cemetery or anywhere else.

It is also NAI for me but you have plenty of things that can help you develop a read not just the place they wanted to go, that's more like a cheap excuse.

For example I didn't like how jasson throw shade on everyone who didn't pick cemetery with nothing but conjectures and assumptions. I don't like how some players have misrepresented points that have been explained thorough, I don't like something persivul said early but I can't remember what was right now but will go back later and check it to be sure. I also don't like how he only show show situations where Pine was scum to promote his lynch neglecting completely the town Pine mislynch consequences. Aff gotta run more in a while.

Do you have any town reads, or is pretty much everyone scummy? And if there are so many people you don't like, why aren't you voting somebody?

It is also NAI for me but you have plenty of things that can help you develop a read not just the place they wanted to go, that's more like a cheap excuse.

I've been away awhile. What is NAI?

Not Alignment Indicative

[shaddowez]

I'm fine with your case in 474, it actually echoes many of the things that I don't like about Pine (that post is coming soon, I promise). That doesn't mean I have to like the idea of "Let's lynch him to find out if he's scum", which is drastically different than "I think he's scum, let's lynch him".

I'm not finding you scummy for your process, I was more wondering that since you seem to be thinking along the same lines if you find Dunn's approach scummy or not.

[shaddowez]

In 227, Pine outright says he's either a cleric or a paladin, then makes a deal out of "not claiming" in 241. I'm not sure if fakeclaims are given or not, but if so this could easily be a way to rolefish for the other role. He also makes a point of saying how the item is useful for his class, and once he has it that it's (practically) useless to him, effectively removing the item from town, and almost from the game until he's killed one way or the other. If he's scum, there's little chance of that happening unless he's lynched or there's a vig. If he's not lying about his ability, there's a chance that neither of these would matter anyway.

378 is terrible, as it's saying "I'm going to call you scum, but not strong enough scum to want to lynch you, I'd rather waste a vig shot on you". If there's a scum BP or scum doctor, and they're scum together, that's an easy out also.

411, 412, and 419 all throw shade at Dunn, yet he still never votes for him.

I'm still down for a Dunn vote, but I think I want to see this hang first.

VOTE: Pine

[shaddowez]

He's voting Persivul in 344 for being a "shady character". It's not that he's not voting, it's that he's not voting what seems to be his stronger scum read.

[shaddowez]

He's a Miller claim. Proper protocol is a vig shot. If he's still alive tomorrow, I'm down to lynch him.

I still don't understand this. If you actually think he's scum, shouldn't you want a lynch? Your current line of thinking assumes mulitple things - that there is a vig, that he's not BP, that scum doesn't have any sort of protective/block, that if there is a vig they think Dunn is as scummy as you do, etc. Considering there's a chance he has abilities if he's scum that he'd be able to use living past N1, why are you so opposed to lynching him D1?

Creature fluffing his post count, I mean scum hunting.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Head towards Silent Hill

I am nearly solving the game, I'll just wait the others to come.

I can't imagine the cemetary be adventurous for us.

I want to start lynching.

Mobileposting is hard.

I'll see if I'll have a post explosion later.

Oh right.

If we're looking for strong townreads, I know some.

Maybe we should preferably start with KuroiXHF.

Why? He's VLA for the weekend.

Oh nvm, I have someone else in mind then.

Won't vote until I get the VC.

Wished we could knock out lurkers, I've lost so many times because of them (town lurker or scum lurker).

Don't worry, I'm not a MariaR relative.

Fantastic

I don't know why I posted that.

Do you think that post count/effort is AI? Shouldn't Vedith and I be scum reads of yours based on post count then?

VOTE: Pine

It's my understanding that the item passes on, on a lynch, before the night phase, and so can still be used. The person gets to select where the item goes. Let's kill Pine to see if scum took it for themselves, and if they're town they get to select who gets the item.

You're literally saying "Town helped him get this item, now let's lynch him to see if he is actually town or not." That's terrible, and I can't even fathom how that would ever come from a town mindset.

Actually, I said the opposite. Replace the words town with scum

Regarding Dunn's approach above: the first is bad, as he seems to be saying we should try this even with no scum read on Pine or the Pine item wagon. The second one seems to indicate he's suspicious of Pine and/or the wagon, but it's not clear.

I don't like it, but reading dunn's ISO overall he's not high on my priorities rn.

Yeah, I'm suspicious of pine there. That's why I was voting him

I'm still down for a Dunn vote, but I think I want to see this hang first.

You're down to vote me, but you're going to vote who I voted instead



k

You mean the person that you're no longer voting, since pressure started building on him? And yeah, my reads aren't dependent on who is voting whom. Sure, that contributes, but since I'm independently willing to vote either of you right now, one of you voting the other isn't going to change my read enough to make me not vote them.

Oh damn, shaddowez pulling the master lynchbait.

Huh?

VOTE: Creature For now.

In 375 you list Dunn, SlySly, and Creature as scumspects - why specifically choose Creature here?

Doesn't mean it's a wagon on scum necessarily but I'll agree the rabble about pine has started to fade a bit. Could just be that town's more ready for a dreal flip though.

The weird thing is that I'm pretty much in love with how this dreal wagon has built up so far, whereas pine I'm not really scumreading any of the votes on him as much as a few people kinda biding their time on it.

Hard to credit if dreal is more likely to white knight a town pine as scum because if pine's town that's a good mislynch for scum is it not?

Could you explain your thoughts on the wagon composition? I'm not sure I follow (thought that could just be because I haven't had my caffeine of the day yet...)

huh. I actually have Drealmz as town.

Still torn about Pine I will ISO him and make my mind after some more sleep.

Someone said scum had Day talk? I don't remember seeing that on the rules.

Creature can you show me what you consider my fluff posting?

should we request a replace on BRantz? 10 days left for day phase.

Mafia Team has Daytalk enabled in this game.

Also, I believe Clumsy has posted looking for a replacement already, even though he didn't say anything in thread.

[shaddowez]

Sry I had to go to the hospital for an emergency will be catching up and stuff later after I get some sleep.

Feel better!

[shaddowez]

Wow....just remembered that Vedith replaced out. See my previous post regarding coffee.....

Shouldn't Vedith and I be scum reads of yours based on post count then?

I need to reread dreal, but I'm still good with a Pine lynch based on his recent interaction with Jason.

Now, off to get coffee then more detail stuff.

[shaddowez]

Do you think that post count/effort is AI? Shouldn't Vedith and I be scum reads of yours based on post count then?

Creature was the one inferring low post count was of the scumz. I was pointing out how his high post count was full of nothing.

...that explains your hypocrisy comment in the next post. (caffeinating now)

[shaddowez]

I think the only person that's stated they'd vote Jason right now is Pine, what makes you say that lynch is likely to have support?

[shaddowez]

The first sentence of my post got eaten.

Regarding your low activity comment, that's fair.

[shaddowez]

Dunn and dreal, I think.

[shaddowez]

I have a sense of humor here!

[shaddowez]

Actually though, that's pretty much an impossible question for me to answer. I get mislynched or misvigged almost every game, so apparently my play style isn't really different in my town or scum games.

[shaddowez]

Dunn and dreal, I think.

Wait I'm getting called scum with dreal?

Or, you know, you could read the thread.

[shaddowez]

Welcome Andrius!

Had a sick wife and two sick kids yesterday, catching up now.

Sly, considering your're at least slightly scum reading Creature based on your posts, why unvote Pine and not vote Creature?

dreal

- I'll get to your 700 in a bit.

[shaddowez]

I'll try to get everything, let me know if I missed anything.

culted is probably my strongest town read, for multiple reasons. I could be totally off on my first reason, but I don't think scum!Vedith would have replaced out like he did. His tunnel on Shaz seems to be legitimately trying to get motivation and reasoning, and unless this is Scum theater, I don't see this as SvS. (Still trying to decide if I think it's SvT or TvT though).

Lastly, the fact he's willing to ask if he's just dumbtunneling or not isn't something I see town doing

.

this part of this post seems off to me-

can you break it down a little more for me shad? what is the 1st reason that you think you could be totally off on for your TR on culted? why don't you think scum!vedith would replace out like he did?

I'm not sure I understand your first question, but if anything gives me pause about my townread it's his voting pattern. He seems to vote first and follow up with reasons/questions later, which could be biding time/waiting for people to question his reads/votes. However, he always seems to have legitimate reasons and followthrough, so it doesn't really ping me as scum. As for Vedith, I'm pretty sure it was your comments that caused the replace out. I think scum!Vedith would have just become more aggressive and tried to get you out of the game, whereas town!Vedith would be more likely to just get aggravated and leave. I honestly don't know him that well, but it's kinda the vibe I get from other games I've been in with him.

and another reason you're TRing him is because he's tunneling shaz, you say scum theater and so you must be scum-reading shaz (why?) , but then you go on with your parenthetical side-statment and...

it just stinks of ...stink! (you're still trying to decide though!) ? really off!

I'm slightly scum reading Shaz here, but not enough to give a firm read. Pretty much the only way I could see culted as scum here is if they are both scum, which I'm not sure about.

and the underlined part, I couldn't find the dumbtunnel comment - who made it? can you link it? in fact, when you do a little catchup like this and refer to things that stimulate your thoughts, can you link them too? it makes following your thoughts easier

Sorry, he said "bad tunnel", not "dumb tunnel". It was in 406.

I'm guessing you mean shaz is you who mean since you "don't see town asking that" ? and in your paragraph culted is your TR who you agree with because of how they're going after shaz (which isn't scum theater...parenthsis...), but, okay so, why don't you see town asking if they're dumbtunneling?

That should've said scum, not town. I changed how I phrased the comment but forgot to change that. Original quote was:

I don't see him tunneling town like that and then asking if it's dumbtunneling

and then

My other scum lean right now is Jason, he seems to be trying to hide behind the source material. Shaz is doing the same thing, but the key difference to me is how they acted in regard to the amulet once that came into play.

wait, so, now you're not reading shaz as scummy as jason?

I'm really confused, and I know I'm not like "with it" as everyone else, but, am I missing something?

No, I'm not reading them

as scummy

as each other. I see the potential for both shaz and Jason to be hiding behind the theme, which is scummy since there's a lot more of that than actual gamesolving as far as I can tell. However, Jason's other actions actually have me scum reading him, whereas I wouldn't be willing to vote Shaz yet but am watching him.

[shaddowez]

Working on catching up.

dreal

- was your 700 just a waste of time, or did you intend to follow up on responses to it?

Need to reread Kuroi, but it doesn't look like there's much to go on there. I don't know if I want to lynch based on lurker activity at this point though. Want to reread dreal as well - last time I did so I wasn't finding anything to base a scum read on, so not really sure what's going on there.

Still willing to vote Dunn, my scum read on Pine in waning though still there, and I'd probably be willing to vote Jasonif it was the only wagon we had.

[shaddowez]

Alright, my opinions.

Pine should

NOT

get the item. If he's town, that paints an even bigger target on him. If he's scum, now scum definitely have two items, as opposed to only the possibility if it's another player.

culted is a strong town player, which makes him a likely NK target also. Considering we've had a Bodyguard flip, it's probably not the wisest decision to give it to him either.

There's no way I'm giving it to Dunn with a miller claim.

I think Shaziro, slysly, and Andrius are my top three picks for where the item should go today.

[shaddowez]

Sorry for the absence, site flaked for a few days due to work.

Consider that pine is scum for a moment - they gain an item day 1 and it is not stolen

Day 2, someone else has their item stolen from them. Pine was campaigning to get the item for himself, as well

Scum might have both items. I don't see how stealing the item can be towny.

On the other hand, what if the rogue was town and scumread culted, and wanted to prevent the possibility of scum having both items? Any reason that didn't occur to you?

drealmerz please.
Think about it.

I know nothing about your role.
That could be scum/ someone else trolling for all that.

I don't know how you're getting scum from this. At all. There's no play one way or the other regarding messengers.

I don't KNOW you're the sender. Nothing confirms you as sender. Mod didn't name you.

I hesitated because if it WASNT YOU you wouldn't need to ASK FOR FLAVOR you could have just been tee hee I know what it is because its me and not said anything.

You didn't have to bark up your own tree.

Yeah, this is what got to me. This is similar to a doctor in a Newbie going "Gee, why didn't anyone die last night, hurdy hurdy hur". dreal is accusing Andrius of outing a ton more information than he actually did, and seems to be trying to paint him scummy for reacting to what dreal set up. This was almost a lose-lose for Andrius here, and I don't understand why a town!dreal would have acted that way.

I have a bunch more to follow up on, but this was too much to hold off on.

VOTE: dreal

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

I'm not town reading dreal, but want to parse through this whole interaction again. Something's not sitting right.

Shaz

- to add on to kuror's question, can you actually provide a succinct scum read on dreal that has nothing to do with his flavor claim?

[shaddowez]

Christmas weekend V/LA.

I'm still good with a pine lynch, want to be able to post more before voting

[shaddowez]

I've been poked! Catch up is happening now. Any compelling reasons for me to not vote Pine?

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

I'm not town reading dreal, but want to parse through this whole interaction again. Something's not sitting right.

Shaz

- to add on to kuror's question, can you actually provide a succinct scum read on dreal that has nothing to do with his flavor claim?

Shaziro

- Did you ever answer kuror or me here? I didn't see anything that really resembled a read outside of you arguing his flavor claim.

The Creature kill was made by a vig. You have that in mind so if Pine is not what he claims you think someone else protected the target or scum just did a no kill on purpose to frame someone or what theory you have in mind? Cause I don't see much sense going against his claim that he is a doc when you believe scum missed their NK.

I'm still confused why people are convinced it was a vig shot. It says right in Creature's flip that Strahd has to lead the kill, which leads me to believe that it was just another scum, not Strahd.

Okay, L-1, here's full claim.

I am the cleric.

I have an X-shot ability called Cure Wounds, which will let me protect someone, day or night. I am told that it is low priority, and if someone else intercedes to prevent the kill, it will not be used. I also have a 1-shot ability called Speak With Dead, which will let me open a PT with a dead player for one day phase.

...snip....

and easily removing the (likely) only dedicated healing role.

There are two things I don't like about this. The first is the "low priority" claim. That sounds like an easy way to artificially inflate the X-Shot. "Yep, I used it but somebody else must have done something, I've still got another shot".

The other thing is the claim that he's likely the only healing role, when the "low priority" claim is there too. Other than the bodyguard we already know about, what else would cause the shot to not be used? It almost seems like those two ideas contradict each other.

I'm not claiming just because those I believe to be scum are pressuring me to.

Who is pressuring you to claim? I'm genuinely intrigued. Is there some sort of forum schizophrenia or am I selectively blind or something?

I don't believe this was ever addressed, except for some name calling. I don't see anyone "pressuring" you to claim either, so I guess most of the game is selectively blind?

I've been poked! Catch up is happening now. Any compelling reasons for me to not vote Pine?

While it's most likely against your win condition, I'd prefer you to vote yourself.

That's a nice deflection. Let's say I'm not going to vote for myself - do you have a reason for me to not vote for Pine?

I've been poked! Catch up is happening now. Any compelling reasons for me to not vote Pine?

You haven't catched up but still want to vote for pine which means you are pretty sold on the reasons to vote for him, so would you mind telling us what are those reasons?

I've been willing to vote Pine for most of the game, and my last post said I was willing to vote Pine, so I'm not sure what my catch up has to do with anything. That said:

• He has a non-confirmable role/ability that he used to grab the item D1.
  
• He scum reads Dunn, outside of the miller claim, but refuses to vote him over other reads.
  
• He says a recharge item will most likely be useless to him, and then recently tells us about not 1, but 2 limited use powers he has, one of which is supposedly a protective/doctor.
  
• He pushed hard for the Jason lynch, which was almost a CC (there seem to be multiple of many role types, which is the only reason I'm not outright saying it was a CC)
  
• He makes another play at trying to get the item D2.
  
• Most of his arguments seem to be based on his roleclaim.
  
• I don't see any scum hunting. He's choosing one or two players a Day, and focusing on them for "reasons previously stated"

[shaddowez]

Shaddow, have you ISO'd me?

I have not, but I was paying attention to your posts in my catch up. Is it that difficult for you to recap for me?

The Creature kill was made by a vig. You have that in mind so if Pine is not what he claims you think someone else protected the target or scum just did a no kill on purpose to frame someone or what theory you have in mind? Cause I don't see much sense going against his claim that he is a doc when you believe scum missed their NK.

I'm still confused why people are convinced it was a vig shot. It says right in Creature's flip that Strahd has to lead the kill, which leads me to believe that it was just another scum, not Strahd.

I believe the same you do but that paragraph was meant to sly and it was using his mind set or at least the parts I had at that time. So if you wanna argue over why he believes it was a vig shot and not a goon kill, then be my guest.

I'm not claiming just because those I believe to be scum are pressuring me to.

Who is pressuring you to claim? I'm genuinely intrigued. Is there some sort of forum schizophrenia or am I selectively blind or something?

I don't believe this was ever addressed, except for some name calling. I don't see anyone "pressuring" you to claim either, so I guess most of the game is selectively blind?

I did my part claim because I wanted, there was no pressure and I never complained about it. So whats your point here? I can't ask for the reasons on actions I don't understand because I did X or Y in the past in a totally unrelated way? Or what am I missing?



Now about your reasons to vote for pine I don't agree with most of them but there are a couple of things that I had forgotten so I need to re check a couple of things. I still believe his item description and his personal claim but will re check some stuff.

Alright, I misunderstood your 1475. The second part was intended for Sly, since he was the one that said something about not claiming even though he was being pressured to do so.

As for Pine, I'm not doubting his description of the item, but that's irrelevant to his actions around it.

Regarding the possibility that Creature was a vig shot: as Creature's role pm said that he could be turned if targeted by Strahd, Strahd's likely says that there is a traitor that he can turn. So, it would make sense that scum would use Strahd for the kill.

It says right in Creature's flip that Strahd has to lead the kill, which leads me to believe that it was just another scum, not Strahd.

What's stated in the PM has no weight in who killed Creature. The PM doesn't say "Your role cannot be killed by a vig". The PM says, paraphrasing, "if kill lead by Strahd, you will be converted instead of killed". Creature's dead from either, a vig shot, or not-Strahd scum kill. My belief is Creature died by vig.

Two points - First, do scum always know there's a traitor? Second, I'm not arguing that it

couldn't

/

[b/]

be a vig, I'm just unsure why/how there's insistence that it was.

[shaddowez]

Sorry to everyone (especially the scum team) for disappearing. The holidays were hard enough, then my phone died while I was away for New Years, and Verizon sent the replacement to my house even though I gave them my in-laws address :/ Good game all, and is gladly pay with any of you again