Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[Aj The Epic]

Kairal, beginning of the day you aren't an option, nor is Culted really. At least, not before massive/flubber and probably shadow.

I don't believe grey makes a play to JK newman. Grey knows Newman needs a result to show that he's town and Grey won't interfere with that. Even if Grey protects Newman and no kill comes through, was it newman making the kill or was scum trying to kill newman? More importantly, a JK blocking newman doesn't stop a RB from doing the same and scum killing elsewhere/testing that BP claim. I'm not sure how many players in this game would miss this crucial piece: Newman NEEDED a clear/indictment if he were to survive D2. Pretty sure it's near 0.

Sure no one's going to believe a cop claim in LYLO without a crumb. But in this case, what's actually the difference? He doesn't have to produce another read until the day after tomorrow, and scum could gambit that that day never happens or that his cop just conveniently dies. And if I'm not mistaken, even getting that far still represents lylo for town. To which the game is cleared before a third clear is ever made. Do you see why this claim is so incredibly suspect?

Do I want to lynch massive? Yes. More than I did before the claim. I'm nigh positive it's a fake claim because the context around it isn't good. However, as of right now I'd prefer Naomi because there are provable contradictions in what she's said. My question on massive is a claim that is so incredibly suspect that should I have the ability to afford a lynch, I'd be lynching him. But to avoid lylo from here on out, we MUST lynch scum today.

[Kairal]

I still don't really agree with all of your reasoning. That said I am beginning to have some doubts about his claim and assuming you, me and massive are alive tomorrow I think it's worth pursuing further.

The important thing I think is that we agree we can't afford a massive lynch today. We need a scum flip. Hopefully at that point interactions will make this all a lot clearer.

Naomi is the third I'd want after culted and Flubber but at this point I'll take any lynch I can get.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay guys. I think most of us are in agreement at a flubbs lynch is an okay thing. we may disagree on me or massive being the bigger one but I think we could for now all settle on middle ground and then use his flip to determine mine and massives alignments for Lylo.

[Kairal]

I'm ok with that and am in fact already voting it. AJ any chance I could persuade you to a flubber lynch?

[I Am Innocent]

@IamI : Right now there are 9 people alive so we need 5 to lynch. Assuming 3 scum and no bussing that means our only chance of getting a scum lynch is for 5/6 town to agree on someone. Right now massive is tunneling on me which means we need every remaining vote to get scum. Please don't waste your vote on Dier since nobody else is scum reading him.

And if I'm right I just let him lurk off to the sunset with a crappy win?

At this point I'm going to give my input and hope to get massive and BV on board. Town needs to trust that claim and also assume no Godfather/target was a non GF.

Otherwise scum noise is going to drown out town coming together.

Ps I'm leaning towards town in (massive BV kairal cloud/shadow/crazy poster slot, me)

[Kairal]

Even if Dier is scum he has 2 buddies. He's a good player and if he's scum our best bet is that a flipped scum has posts that make it clear they're scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Ok this is getting ridiculous.

AJ do you agree that in order for massive to claim this he has to know he won't be countered? If so how can be sure that there actually isn't an even cop but that we will believe there is one? If he can't be sure why is he pulling a high risk gambit?

Provide a satisfactory answer for these questions and I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea that massive is scum. However the more you string this suspicioun out without good answers the scummier it looks.

Without a good answer? With you judging? May I point out that I've given you plenty of reasoning above that you just blatantly ignored. For what it's worth I doubt scum would go after a claimed cop, especially one that has so very little chance of ever getting another result.

Massive makes the claim as scum with two reasons: He feels his lynch is inevitable (be it today or tomorrow) and scum don't have a role that counters a cop. As stated before, there's 0 reason scum wouldn't have roles to counter a cop in the event of their being two cops. If they don't have that, it's an easy claim to make.

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

The thing is that we never got a scum anywhere near a lynch Day 1. Scum don't need to push hard (and are gonna look bad on the flip if they do). I don't think Flubs play day 1 was inconsistent with your third scenario

You're either far too confident on massive being town or you have additional information.

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

I'm very close to voting this slot as well.

I've seen a number of games mentioned now with odd and even cops. Please list a few with one or the other. Otherwise your doubt casting is scummy as all get out.

[I Am Innocent]

Even if Dier is scum he has 2 buddies. He's a good player and if he's scum our best bet is that a flipped scum has posts that make it clear they're scum.

Culted or AJ?

Massive and BV, your thoughts on these slots as well?

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

I'd say massive, Flubbernugget, and...MiniDeathStar, maybe? The full list would look like this:

TOWN
---
Aj The Epic, I Am Innocent, CloudKicker* (need to follow through on reading Shadow_step more carefully as discussed with Aj The Epic)
---
Kairal, culted, MiniDeathStar
---
Flubbernugget, massive
---
MAFIA

I can flesh those out more later, but in brief: I think that 1025 from massive indicates a conclusion that was formed before the evidence (that post questions Kairal but includes a vote for Flubbernugget, and I don't see a reason why the argument doesn't apply to MiniDeathStar).

I'll have a much more thorough response within 48 hours.

I still don't see scum dier putting teammate flubber as one if his scum picks this close to LyLo.

[Kairal]

I also don't like anyone's chances of convincing massive not to vote me. He's tunneling so hard he'd still vote me even if I revealed as innocent child.

[BlackVoid]

Still reading. I read everything so it's going to take me a while. Can we have one more person vote extension please? Massive? Flubber? Culted? Dierfire?

By the way, no comments on my mass-claim proposal? We're a day off from lylo so unless there's some part of site meta I don't understand, now

is

the optimal time for mass-claim.

[Kairal]

I dunno I was feeling pretty suspicious of AJ's insistence that massive can't be cop. Now that I'm beginning to doubt it too I'm not so sure. His play the rest of the game has felt pretty town to me.

I'm definitely not voting for him if the alternative is one of flubber, culted or Naomi.

[Kairal]

Still reading. I read everything so it's going to take me a while. Can we have one more person vote extension please? Massive? Flubber? Culted? Dierfire?

By the way, no comments on my mass-claim proposal? We're a day off from lylo so unless there's some part of site meta I don't understand, now

is

the optimal time for mass-claim.

I've proposed it numerous times. I'm VT. Pretty sure everyone else who hasn't claimed is too.

[Kairal]

On that topic I should mention that I'm going to be very unlikely to believe any claims that come out tomorrow, well if it is lylo. If you do have a role today is the day to claim it.

[I Am Innocent]

Still reading. I read everything so it's going to take me a while. Can we have one more person vote extension please? Massive? Flubber? Culted? Dierfire?

By the way, no comments on my mass-claim proposal? We're a day off from lylo so unless there's some part of site meta I don't understand, now

is

the optimal time for mass-claim.

I'm fine with a mass claim too. I'd like BV and massive to agree on an order tho if we do proceed in that direction.

[I Am Innocent]

Already have

Massive even night cop
Kairal VT
Naomi VT

My suggestion would be AJ next if we precede

[BlackVoid]

I'd like AJ to go next too.

[Kairal]

Yeah culted fits really well in a team with flubber and massive. I'm moving my vote there, though again I'm pretty ok with a flubber vote too.

VOTE: Culted

[Aj The Epic]

Ok this is getting ridiculous.

AJ do you agree that in order for massive to claim this he has to know he won't be countered? If so how can be sure that there actually isn't an even cop but that we will believe there is one? If he can't be sure why is he pulling a high risk gambit?

Provide a satisfactory answer for these questions and I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea that massive is scum. However the more you string this suspicioun out without good answers the scummier it looks.

Without a good answer? With you judging? May I point out that I've given you plenty of reasoning above that you just blatantly ignored. For what it's worth I doubt scum would go after a claimed cop, especially one that has so very little chance of ever getting another result.

Massive makes the claim as scum with two reasons: He feels his lynch is inevitable (be it today or tomorrow) and scum don't have a role that counters a cop. As stated before, there's 0 reason scum wouldn't have roles to counter a cop in the event of their being two cops. If they don't have that, it's an easy claim to make.

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

The thing is that we never got a scum anywhere near a lynch Day 1. Scum don't need to push hard (and are gonna look bad on the flip if they do). I don't think Flubs play day 1 was inconsistent with your third scenario

You're either far too confident on massive being town or you have additional information.

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

I'm very close to voting this slot as well.

I've seen a number of games mentioned now with odd and even cops. Please list a few with one or the other. Otherwise your doubt casting is scummy as all get out.

Restrictions on from where on site (mini norms/outside)? Because I think the last game I played on site only had one, but it was a large theme with a lot of power on both sides. (In fact, it's really not uncommon in Large theme games...)

I'm ok with that and am in fact already voting it. AJ any chance I could persuade you to a flubber lynch?

I'm ok with lynching Flubber, he's still second/third on my reads list.

[Kairal]

Mini 1848 has an odd cop but no even. (also has a jailkeeper)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68980

Now I still think it's very possible that we have both. It is possible for us to only have one though, if that's the point of contention. I could see 3 goons, a JK and an odd night cop being reasonably balanced. It's also a potential explanation for why massive would be sure that we don't have an even cop, yet believe that we might buy it.

[Kairal]

Anyway Aj role claim please? If you're holding something back for tomorrow that's gonna be too late

[Aj The Epic]

So I don't remember wtf a party animal is but

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=64736

Ended up losing because FA played pretty well and bussed a good bit. RCB claims it was a bit scum sided in post game notes, so take it as you will. We still got to 4 person MYLO.

I don't have any more in my personal game list (At least, I stopped looking) but I don't see why this claim wouldn't warrant suspicion.

I'm also not claiming until BV decides that this is the way we're going.

[BlackVoid]

Do you disagree that now is the optimal time to mass-claim? Do you think leaving it until a possible lylo is a better strategy?

[Kairal]

You lynched the guy who's name is Always Innocent? tut tut.

[Aj The Epic]

As opposed to I am Innocent? Ask him about his cop claim.

Do you disagree that now is the optimal time to mass-claim? Do you think leaving it until a possible lylo is a better strategy?

No, I didn't notice we started.

I'd be a VT as well.