Newbie 1769: Happy New Year! (Post-Game)

[Raskolnikov]

First wagon in a day is primarily for info, days never end that earlier unless someone accidently (or scum) quickhammer but that was warned against.
Even if my reads were the same as what you expressed (which they weren't), those others were there and active without needing to be pressured in any way.

[Raskolnikov]

Shade visited yesterday, he probably checks in again today and sees this then responds.

Even if think never posts again just seeing more of shade could shed some light on think given their lil neg association.

[Raskolnikov]

@Shade I want your reads aside from thinkbig

[cassielle]

im not casting doubt on you based purely on read differences. im asking you to explain 1: the read on tb that made him so obvscum. 2: the reason that read overshadowed other potential reads from the same time period or earlier.

HOWEVER, if town cant agree on their reads, pushing for a lynch is going to end badly every time. thats why i was comparing and contrasting with creature -- if we can come to a shared conclusion after some back and forth, each of our reads are that much stronger together than they would be otherwise and the scum have that much more trouble hiding. ofc obvsheeping should be called out and reasoning should be asked for. not everyone uses the same rules of inference and cloned reasoning should stand out on that basis. that doesnt mean we cant say that putting obvtown in the scumlist is weird af, because it is. it means youre quite prob blind to what the others are seeing and need to re-evaluate, are seeing something the others arent and need to share, or are very prob scum.

[Raskolnikov]

Okay, that seals the deal for casserole.

[cassielle]

maybe i wasnt clear on that first part, so:

it isnt read differences that im getting on your case about, it is the good-faith coming to those reads. same as schadd_ -- the read feels like there no weight behind it, like its something that you pulled out of a hat (or out of someone else's post...) and that is something you can definitely prove is not the case by detailing your reasoning. that wagon is dead, long gone, you have no reason to hide the reasoning now, the situation is "fixed", it cannot be "fixed" any further by you dropping info that could get the wagon off of him potentially -- because, er, its gone. it doesnt let scum borrowing your reasoning in order to sheep because, ah, no ones on that wagon. so why havent you just come out and stated it? that doesnt feel town, at best its very anti-town, which doesnt make you look good at all.

[Raskolnikov]

First wagon in a day is primarily for info, days never end that earlier unless someone accidently (or scum) quickhammer but that was warned against.
Even if my reads were the same as what you expressed (which they weren't), those others were there and active without needing to be pressured in any way.

[Raskolnikov]

How do d1 first wagons usually play out were you're from?

[cassielle]

generally they get to l-2 (without any unintentional (or fake) l-1 votes) and either peter out or go for a lynch after some discussion. however, ive read site meta here and i know thats not how it works, esp with much longer days. and im not assuming it is.

my contention: you wanted information. WHY did you want that information? part one of my last question, namely "1: the read on tb that made him so obvscum." you could have pressed on anyone else for info. why him in particular? ignore the weight of the wagon, what made you want him to talk instead of someone else?

[Raskolnikov]

I like to have everyone on the field before making a my judgment, I think I talk about it here before actually.

At that point it was think, your own slot, and I think maybe someone else who were bare. Of those think seemed like he was talking for the sake of talking.

[cassielle]

shade came in after your vote im p sure, so hed be no 3. alright, i can tentatively accept this. ill let creature ask you to address his personal major question before i jump back in with number 2. in the mean time: why do you suspect GAYreen?? like at all? its pretty generally agreed GAYreen is obv noobtown afaict, so you either saw something we didnt or need to be shown something you didnt see

[Raskolnikov]

It's not really the same but 66 is along similar lines, of course you can look at my previous games if you don't believe me when I say I tend to take d1 slow. And always, even if I scumread the first wagon a lot further from not liking their reactions, even then I still tend to back off a bit, reconsider and look at the alternative possibilities before ending.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not sure, you creature gigabyte all say gayreen obvtown but he's just nullish to me, kind of there but I can't really make a decision either way. Especially now after you came in.

I wouldn't mind being shown something about it though it sounds mostly like gutreads. and giga partially says it's on meta which I can't really see for myself.

[cassielle]

i cant see the meta either, but theres a lot of very noobtown behavior. from a more advanced player some of it reads as scum, but theres a lot of towntells, things like #87 and #91, #101 too with the whole not wanting to go against the town leaders thing -- it doesnt have the stink of scum sheeping, it feels like an honest noob taking direction from the people in charge. VERY slow to jump on that active wagon and got scared last min. scum is usually on the wagon and thered be a lot weirder behavior under even minor pressure i feel. its more of a mood thing -- not quite a gut read, but a tone read. 199 betrays a non-omniscient frame of mind, remembering that you dont know anything is a light towntell. it goes on, and none of it alone is much but it all adds up to obvtown.

[schadd_]

creature is townread because A: i dont know anyone of these folks and i trust their knowledge of him

what?

notes toward a reads list, p3:

rask is doing a lot of head-nodding, automated yesman behavior. "yeah, uh-huh, yep" with really shallow concerns tacked on.

HMMMMMM

HMMMMMMMMMMM

1: noobtown seems to lean toward the paranoid side. theyd see q4 and dive deep into the ocean of WIFOM madness and decide its best to just pick a role that isnt theirs, or they wouldnt care and the mafia learns absolutely nothing even despite that. certainly no ones gonna ask about vt, how the hell can this be rolefishin since everybody gonna pick a p common role most likely but no ones gonna say vt? scumscuse for anti-town behavior imo

this definitely describes less than all scenarios. this is a mafia forum, and it's probably hard to find if you're completely unfamiliar with the game, but there has probably existed some newbie, somewhere, that would see this post and say something readable about their role. it's really not a large probability, but scum might be able to pick off a PR with little risk, and i don't really see any way the question could add to discussion/hold people accountable somehow.

also noticing a lot of strong townreads from gbT but v weak scumreads, which is a tactic i employ as scum. you have perfect knowledge and you want to hide that, but you also have to look like youre contributing. this guy gets 4 perfect townreads by p4, but doesnt have any good scumreads? yeah no not buying that garbage.

uh, this doesn't make sense, especially considering that several other people are doing the same thing. newbies can be townread pretty easily, and apparently creature can as well.

am more certain after 110: getting bored, no suspicion in their direction, trying to encourage people to read past games so theyll see their town game and get suspicious (and i did). wants to have a chance of losing but everybody tiptoing around the subject and/or sheeping.

this is dumb. you gotta think of things in terms of town narratives vs. scum narratives, i.e., something is only scummy if scum is more likely to do it than town. sure, there's a pretty little reason that scum might do it (which assumes that someone isn't playing to their win condition, which is just not a good assumption) but there's also a super obvious reason town would do it, so that they are easier to read, which town wants to be.

also dismissing softclaims in an overly WIFOM-aware way, smells like S C U M. down to nullscum you go pal

i'm assuming you're referring to this sentence:

obv was not trying to softclaim tracker, nor softclaim not tracker, etc.

firstly, that's not wifom. people asked whether i was softclaiming and i clarified that i wasn't. "not claiming tracker" kind of implies that you're not the tracker, so i added the second part. secondly, how is wifom in terms of your power role scummy? the sole reason you have wifom with respect to PRs is to get scum to nightkill the wrong people.

gbT trying to test the waters with how far they can make people sheep them in 115, seriously now. why was this not discussed? oh yeah because schadd_ legitimized it. S C U M B U D D I E S

115 uh, i don't see it. the third line, maybe? like, you're assuming that they said that thinking everyone is sheeping them, and so they asked me to figure out the gap in their townreads? again, this just makes sense as GBT is asking me opinions on someone they can't figure out.

schadd_; really, i just want you to explain your reads in detail, like, fullstop. theyre not feeling nice to me, im not liking them one bit. convince me you came by them honestly

detail is what i used, as scum, to look like i was doing something. if you say something simple and then link to a post, then the attention is taken off of yourself. to add to this, i don't really have any grandiose reasoning for anyone, but i have given some amount of support for all of my moderately strong reads; you can probably find them if you really want to. i couldn't go through everyone without repeating myself. if you scumread me for that, cool.
incidentally, "theyre not feeling nice to me, im not liking them one bit." doesn't feel nice to me.

[Aeronaut]

- VoteCount 1.8 -
With 9 players still alive, it's 5 to lynch!

[L-5] mattblackguy -
[L-5] GAYreenHamster -
[L-5] schadd -
[L-4] Shade - Raskolnikov
[L-3] Raskolnikov - Creature, Cassielle
[L-2] ThinkBig - schadd_, Shade, gigabyteTroubadour,
[L-5] gigabyteTroubadour -
[L-4] Creature - ThinkBig
[L-5] Cassielle -

Not Voting - GAYreenHamster, mattblackguy

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2017-01-18 20:00:00)

[cassielle]

ftr im not currently defending or backing down on my gbT reads. im waiting on their response.

regarding my reads on you: the little bit of WIFOM-awareness in there was like, cherry on top? its not a strong aspect of what im working off of atm. theres also post 53's sheer evil (NAI at /best/ but no town wants to know that for town reasons imo, the best hope is sheer curiosity) and your really strange reads list.

i havent seen any of your reasoning for your reads. i cant parse the reasoning behind a fair few. your iso turns up some stuff on shade. just shade. and something to do with GAYreen but you never expand on it, you just essentially say "because i dont like them" so it may as well be nothing. theres nothing on rask being a nulltown or townlean, or mbg for that matter. theres no real reasoning to your hard scumread on tb beyond the question thing, which i and creature (and maybe others?) agree has a town-look to it.

besides those three, nothing. with my slot thats cool, w/e. creature, makes sense, no ones gonna question creature too closely. with the rest, wow, idk, thats why im asking you to tell me your reasoning, because i am not sure you actually have any. scum cant make up good reasons on the fly, town know their reasons.

[cassielle]

im going to try to sleep, sick lately. might be back in anywhere from 1 hr to 9 hrs.

something to think about tho for my scumreads: me calling you out is a chance for you to get yourselves off the hook. i am not tunneling in on you, i am aggressively pursuing players who ping my scumdar heavily. this is a chance for you to convince me those were misfires, and i am not an unreasonable person. scum will find my questions difficult. town knows why they do things, they should not have much trouble with them. im hoping at least one of you is scum, gonna be honest, but itd be nice to sort out the at least one innocent from the pile early on so we can take this game by end of d2, so im sure hoping you guys understand i dont want you to fight me, i want you to convince me. things will go quicker like that, js.

[schadd_]

regarding my reads on you: the little bit of WIFOM-awareness in there was like, cherry on top? its not a strong aspect of what im working off of atm. theres also post 53's sheer evil (NAI at /best/ but no town wants to know that for town reasons imo, the best hope is sheer curiosity) and your really strange reads list.

alrighty then.
-again, not wifom.
-53 i dunno what NAI is. i posted that, kinda curious about the etiquette about IC & SE (where i played, there wasn't anything like that & newbies aren't distinct in any official way) and also knowing that somebody would probably have to answer uncomfortably
-mm. i'll have to take your word for it. maybe we disagree on rask because L-1 is easier to shrug off where i come from (it's not like there is any danger really associated with it; if somebody just hammers and then TB flips town, cool, let's go after the hammerer) and GBT because, uh, i don't see why you think they shut discussion down. we have, like, 20 pages here. also linking games about yourself is a bit brash and hard to do effectively as scum.

fuck, let's just go through all of them.
gayreen: you say "everyone agrees obvtown" a lot. i think that he's low on content, and tends to ask "should i do this?" a lot, which is definitely newbie but i don't see it as alignment indicative. i would say that my past reasoning def. wasn't "i don't like him," and i think i even clarified too much why it wasn't that. he voted for me with what i thought was a kinda dumb reason, and then didn't get why i found that scummy.

mbg: asks people for clarification a lot, seems to be reading a lot more than posting, and not drawing attention to himself. this is, i think, marginally more likely to come from town. going from mostly null to calling out an exact scumteam is definitely odd, but he's at least making himself accountable. i think scum doesn't really want to put themselves that much out there.

shade: 320, 365

TB: first line of 180, and 320 has some ~feelings~

creature i'm content to not look too hard into for today.

i havent seen any of your reasoning for your reads. i cant parse the reasoning behind a fair few.

these seem like different things. please feel free to ask me for clarification (and i would ask that you use the post tag)

[Shade]

I can't catch up and post more than this tonight because I'm really busy with a sudden real life issue, and the fact this game has so many new posts is not helping.

@Aeronaut Please don't replace me from the game! I will promised try to be more active.

Just answering to a post I read last night

@gigabyteTroubadour I was suspecting gayreen as scum. That was the main reason I asked questions about your reads cause your read about gayreen felt really weird to me. I don't suspect him as scum with TB necessarily, not sure why you were expecting me to scum read them as a team. The way he kept his vote around as a threat and got confused after TB claim is actually scummy to me but first thing that came to my mind was the way he was asking for permissions to vote [like asking help from a more talented player] and I voted ThinkGig mainly to see what will you and GAYreenHamster do about it (and to actually remind ThinkBig to answer my question) which was disrupted with this wagon on me.

As I think it won't have the effect I wanted anymore UNVOTE: ThinkBig

I will answer anything else which was asked from me later when I have time to fully catch up and comment about stuff and will sort my reads.

Sorry for this, Have a good night

[ThinkBig]

UNVOTE: Creature

Reading through now.

[cassielle]

just woke up. gonna let tb catch up and give us some meat because we sure af dont got any on him atm

schadd_ feeling more null to me atm tho, rask read has not budged. shade & schadd_ swap places p much from where im sitting. will go into detail when tb catches up.

[mattblackguy]

mbg's read lists are ugly. let me look for his second readlist, its a MESS. it also DOES NOT follow from his first list in the least.

What about my second readlist doesn't follow on from my first read list? In my first read list I was basically saying I think rask, and giga are town, and thinkbig was mafia. Null pretty much on everyone else. Second read list which was a couple days after I was saying basically the same thing. Only difference being I switched from null to mafia on Rakkar because he send he was going to make an effort to contribute but never did.

Also on the rakkar read, I did later say that I think I was wrong about Rakkar not contributing being AI. It did seem like he was just a kid, and was overwhelmed.

mbg's hard to read-ish but he's lurky and his reads are at least passably anti-town

I still don't see how my reads are anti-town. I just posted what I was feeling at that point of the game.

my mbg read has dropped to nullscum on a doublecheck and rethink of reasoning. the anarchist vibes are likely a personality trait shinign through in general (see avatar), and his reads list is heavily floated toward the middle with few actually dead center purenull -- and those who are at the middle are the strongest of townreads imo. hes prob not on the scum team but hes not exactly playing pro-town. also not getting purenoob vibes, so theres something to be said for that.

What anarchist vibes? lol I really have no idea what you mean by this. If anything I was sheeping more than I should have by putting too much trust into Giga. You also say that I was nullreading people that were obviously town. I'm assuming you are refering to Gayreen, and Creature here. I still don't see how early in the game Creature was an obvious town read. He was just fluffing at that point of time.

About me being anti-town. This is why at the end of my first read list I asked for some advice to help me improve because I know in my first game I'm going to do some stupid stuff.

[cassielle]

actually we need more input from you too so

i was mixing things up on your reads list first off -- does follow, still reasonably easy to call anti-town. the whole thing initially revolved around the middle, 0 hard reads. thats solid anti-town to light scumtell depending on the rest of players game. not too long after you put down a readslist that is gamesolve, which means youre either way cocky or you were pretending not to know anyones role (which would be massive scumtell)

the whole anarchist vibe thing -- you got this tendency to not follow the leader very much in general, the sheeping giga was super late (p14 to p15 roughly, as creature noticed) so i can buy that you came to that honestly and it doesnt strike me as going against the "fuck da police" thing. my reads on you are based on your reads list, low-content posts, and low post count mostly, which is why you run light nullscum atm

[cassielle]

really wanting to see a lot more from tb and mbg today. also really wanting creature to put forward his first case vs rask because i dont think we have the same reasons for our placement of him and i dont think ive made my case stronger with the first set of questions.

reminder: tb, you said youre reading back through. everyone wants you to contribute more today. everyone is watching your slot. you have been all but totally nonexistent, and its made my initial townread hit null because wtf? please post something in depth before tomorrow. idc if youve had a chance to read everything necessarily, theres a lot there and its prob overwhelming. just give us something, anything with some meat on it, none of this delaying tactics crap we been getting from your direction since your claim