Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[culted]

@iami
Who said anything about you being scum for having bad reads?

[massive]

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

No. Cop already is out of flavor due to power, and so limiting a cop by making him even-night only made sense. Making two didn't make sense, especially since Newman didn't actually say he was an odd-night cop -- just a cop. It wasn't until the Io wagon really ramped up that I considered he might be my counterpart, but my vote was already there and I figured that scum wouldn't put it together. (Part of me is trying to figure out how relevant that is.)

I picked up your defense of massive because I was specifically looking to see if anyone tried to swing the wagon away from massive when he had the most votes. Guess who did?

This is still not really "taking claims at face value." You throw so much shade on people you "think" are town, you're practically am umbrella.

Like, I honestly want to go back and compare how many times you've said you believe I'm town versus how many times you've either fed paranoia or outright said I could still be scum.

Outside BV I think AJ and Dierfire are my best townreads. Not super interested in lynching culted or IamI really either. I'm wondering how many scumslips we're going to let Naomi skate by with.

[Aj The Epic]

No. Cop already is out of flavor due to power, and so limiting a cop by making him even-night only made sense. Making two didn't make sense, especially since Newman didn't actually say he was an odd-night cop -- just a cop. It wasn't until the Io wagon really ramped up that I considered he might be my counterpart, but my vote was already there and I figured that scum wouldn't put it together. (Part of me is trying to figure out how relevant that is.)

I didn't see Newman only claimed Cop at first so I understand that part now. My current question was why didn't you counter claim? Or did you suspect that he might just be even?

As far as I know, you're voting Kairal, not Naomi, right now. I'd definitely prefer a Naomi lynch but there's currently no help there.

[Aj The Epic]

*suspect he might be odd w/e

[I Am Innocent]

@culted, Nobody which is what surprised me. As town with terrible reads this game I should be an easy target for scum to mislynch.

Yet no pressure outside of mini's early day 3 VCA has come my way.

Which makes me wonder, have my reads been so bad I'm no danger to scum, maybe they even want me in LyLo?

So I 99.9% believe massives claim, clearing him and mini. I go back and revisit my reads on a number of players I haven't suspected, including you whose reads I mostly aligned with all game.

Then you "go back and look at my ISO and it's terrible" crap comes.

Makes me think I'm on the right track now and u just happen to be at the forefront of that 180 I expected once my reads changed.

[massive]

Because I had nothing to counterclaim with. Either he was going to die overnight or he was going to survive and be the target D2, like you said. I couldn't do anything about it myself until N2, and I prioritized that over Newman. I felt he would get sorted.

[Naomi-Tan]

Grey is playing in a way that makes his intentions ambiguous and that needed to be highlighted

Im counting this as a mudsling.

[Naomi-Tan]

Um, honestly 5 days is not *that* little, it's over a third of Day 1. DAE find Io's voteshift onto a leantown read of hers a little worrysome?

Then there's her 601 that was addressed to me, which I asked about and she didn't explain:

Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and

it's not like I really disagree with you a ton

. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

Io says she doesn't disagree with me a lot, even though I
[1] scumread her,
[2] scumread the people she thinks are town (massive and Newman), and
[3] townread the people she thinks are scum (culted, a little bit Aj).

scumslip

,

n

/'skʌmslɪp/

A careless mistake that exposes one as scum.

‘You think I'm scum and your reads the the polar opposite of mine but it's not like I really disagree with you a ton’

VOTE: Io

They was wrong. but I just LOVED that definition thing XD I'm guessing this is why IO dies. Silly mistake. but great post 10/10

[Naomi-Tan]

If Newman is town, he's definitely managed to outscum the real scum.

Grey, you're kind of a dick, you know that right?

If by dick you mean I'm most useful during hard times, you're right.

OMG she is on fire!

[Dierfire]

@Kairal

Could you direct me to the best case that you've ever made as Town against a Mafia player?

[Naomi-Tan]

I'm a cop!

Okay first cop claim. Go.

Before the cop claim, everyone was reading them kinda red and multiple people had intent to hammer. So It made sense to claim to save there own ass.

Massive themselves had just declared intent to hammer. Given that he claims now to be a even night cop and the claim was normal cop. Why would massive not INSTANTLY attack this slot if not Counter Claim. Just 5 posts previously we had him tossing suspicion on people defending Newman and now to see his reaction.

VOTE: Newman

And then lurking for the rest of the day. Now ... Coming from a town perspective, You just had someone claim your role, someone you thought was red. then you just let them go. You don't chew them out you don't push you don't even type words. you just blank vote and vanish... That is not Green play. In my mind. If I get counter claimed. As green the first thing I do is declare it. this all most always results in the other person or myself getting lynched. Now lets time warp and look what the odds are. If you think there red and your green. You would of had a 90% chance to killing a person you thought was red D1. As the majority of town had voted with 2 declaring intent. That kinda cloud doesn't vanish instantly. You see... here is what I think Actually happened though. you thought it was 100% that you'd die. why? because as red lying about your role (declaring your a cop) and entering in a 1v1 is a bad idea unless your going to win the game off of it (like In Lylo or Mylo. If you'd countered claimed they would of flipped green and a cop and then the crowd would of turned bad.

So here is a quick round up here.
If Massive knew the alignment of Newman. then counter claiming would result in him dying. however, if he didn't know their alignment and thought they was red like they was supposing at the time of the claim. Then there would be no reason not to counter claim as if they DO flip red. you've just confirmed your slot and gotten rid of mafia which is a good trade.

[Naomi-Tan]

36/45 and breaking for now. 9 pages to go so should finish catching up today or tomorrow.

[massive]

I assume you'll come back around at some point and re-read the conversation that Just Freaking Happened regarding this. Who knows though.

[Kairal]

@Kairal

Could you direct me to the best case that you've ever made as Town against a Mafia player?

Um... Well I haven't played many games. This is only my third on the site and it's true that I haven't necessarily been the best at scum hunting.

I got lynched Day 1 in the first (I was town). In the second... well we never caught one of the scum at all really. We only won due to power roles.

That's part of why I'm wavering on these reads so much I guess. I don't really have a good track record.

[Kairal]

For example as massive notes I've been pretty inconsistent on his claim. On the one hand he's been my top scum read for ages. On the other hand nobody's countered his claim and I still don't really see the need for a scum team to bother with this gambit.

The Day 1 play he and Aj are discussing is a perfect example of being sort of weird but not definitely weird enough to make something of. Normally you'd expect that massive would A) counterclaim and get the scum killed B) decide he should hide his role and sort it out later. Instead he does this weird hybrid where he votes him and says he doesn't believe it but without claiming. This means nobody votes Newman so it doesn't help catch scum, but would also stand out to a scum team paying attention.

However it doesn't serve any useful scum purpose either. It's just weird.

[massive]

My god man pick a side. Preferably the one in your role PM. I mean, if it says "scum" please continue down this shade-throwing path.

[Kairal]

Hah. Fine whatever. It's not worth lynching or even really discussing massive today. If he is scum he should be the last one we go for.

Culted/Flubber/Naomi

That's who we should be discussing.

[massive]

Well, go ahead, discuss them. Culted you think is scummy because he was "defending me" / "breaking up my wagon." Do you have any other reason to think he's scum? Flubber? You have them as "not necessarily scum" for their part on the Jin wagon (954) to hammering Jin yourself to then calling their participation on the Jin wagon suspicious (968). Your own performance on the Jin wagon is WAY more suspect than theirs. What else you got?

[massive]

Also I understand it's a lot to read up on so mistakes will be made but Naomi's last post calls a claimed cop and their innocent both suspicious.

You've spent at least a dozen posts doubting my claim and throwing shade at me. Why is her action here suspicious but not the way you jump through hoops to find ways to NOT believe my claim?

[Kairal]

Unfortunately I guess I've already said everything I have to say about it.

Culted fits well into scum teams, hasn't been very helpful and has a pretty bad push on me.

Flubber: I feel like his Jin stuff feels like collaboration with Culted. I find it odd as noted earlier that he spends so much time being suspicious of both massive and Mini. Given how much time those two argued Day 1 you'd think he'd be townreading one of them right? Amusingly I'm in the same spot. I haven't liked a lot of massive's content and a lot of Flubber's reactions mirror mine. I think I'd probably prefer to lynch culted and then come back for flubber once it's confirmed that culted is scum.

Naomi: Her reading order makes things tricky. It's reasonable to expect some odd opinions from reading current stuff and old stuff while missing the middle. I can't really justify it but I'm getting a gut read of town here. Her predecessors are both pretty hard to read I think. Cloud's nonsense is bad play for both alignments, Shadow's lurkiness seemed like it could be scummy but he replaced out for it suggesting it wasn't a deliberate strategy. The main thing is that she doesn't fit with culted or with flubber unless scum decided to bus already. Which is think is not optimal but it's not impossible either.

[massive]

That said Flubber is pretty suspicious in general. When I was scum last game I fixated on a scum read the whole time and Flubber's certainty that we should lynch massive sort of feels similar. He also spent a good deal of Day 1 throwing suspicion on Jin like Culted.

How do you feel about Flubber's more recent posts? Still feel like he's playing your scum game?

[Kairal]

Man that post was days ago. I've been thinking a lot since then. At the time I was sure about your cop claim and Naomi hadn't posted much so I wasn't as sure about her.

[Kairal]

The other thing about Flubber is that he took massive's cop claim in stride. As I did initially as well. Given we were both scum reading massive, and I'm town I should probably assume he's town as well?

Hmm. I also can't really decide whether or not scum would be more likely to accept the claim or dispute it. I've already decided that flubber and massive are very unlikely to be partners. Now scum flubber would therefore know that massive is telling the truth so he might think it's not worth arguing about. There are still enough people with a bit of suspicion that he can get lynched. (me or Naomi, who I think is also an unlikely teammate).

However scum benefit from confusion- a town that strongly believes massive is a town that has fewer suspects and thus more chance of finding a scum team.

Town flubber is probably caught between his initial distrust of massive and his willingness to accept claims. So yeah I'm not sure

[Aj The Epic]

...This is going to be an issue, Kairal. You're playing both sides of it and coming out with no conclusion. If you're going to play the game of "massive/flubber interact like this so they can/cannot have the same alignment", the second part needs to be more definitive. Remember that right now you're trying to have a flubber lynch so you can't really afford to be indecisive here.

[Kairal]

Yeah I don't want to repeat my mistake with Jin.

UNVOTE: Flubber