Newbie 1769: Happy New Year! (Post-Game)

Raskolnikov
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Post Post #575  (ISO)  » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:52 pm

re:

Not quite convincing, potentially wrong on someone

Not quite convincing, potentially wrong on someone


That was the emphasis in that post. The point, the conclusion, of it. If on the other hand it all looked sunshine and daisies I might've just followed it on blind faith but is that what it looked like?
Though other townreads disagreeing with me there too was a part of it as well, perhaps you missed the context via just ISOing?
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Post Post #576  (ISO)  » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:53 pm

In post 573, Raskolnikov wrote:
In post 571, -Grey- wrote:
In post 569, Raskolnikov wrote:Cass replaced rakkar.

Yeah, right.

Enough said.

How do you treat replacements -grey- ?

I don't give them a clean slate, if that's what you're asking.

That said, I read Cass as town anyway.

I was agreeing with your post, if you couldn't tell.
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Post Post #577  (ISO)  » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:54 pm

Mmm I might be a bit on edge atm.
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Post Post #578  (ISO)  » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:59 pm

In post 575, Raskolnikov wrote:re:

Not quite convincing, potentially wrong on someone

Not quite convincing, potentially wrong on someone


That was the emphasis in that post. The point, the conclusion, of it. If on the other hand it all looked sunshine and daisies I might've just followed it on blind faith but is that what it looked like?
Though other townreads disagreeing with me there too was a part of it as well, perhaps you missed the context via just ISOing?

Will obviously you're potentially wrong on someone, but it's rather difficult to operate under the assumption you aren't right.

If your reads were genuine, I believe you would have voted me with the intention of finding my partner if I flipped red.

Putting me as a possible partner with two different players, them voting one of those other players instead of me in a later post reads fabricated as fuck.

VOTE: Rask

L-1
“Trust is an orchid, beautiful but delicate, requiring ideal conditions in order to thrive. Without them, it dies.” - Dahrk (Arrow, Season 4)
---
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"You type like a Bond villain." - DogWatch

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Post Post #579  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:00 am

hey before i answer casserole (i like this better than cassie), hi Grey! ♡♡

mattblackguy wrote: I don't like fluff too much, and try to avoid it when possible, which is why my post count is so much lower than many others.


:)

also with -grey- in here we're going to have a fuckton of active spammy posters so get excited :up:

In post 406, cassielle wrote:regarding info to get from those questions:

first off, it sets up a baseline and makes sure you know everyones experience level. id have followed it up with an experienced-folks-only question set involving who theyve played with before and what pointers they can give about town/scum metas, but thats just because i would want to level that playing field information-wise -- ses and ic have an advantage in knowing some of their counterparts, noobs are just about completely unaware of everyone.

secondly (less important from a game perspective, more important from a learning perspective) it gives everyone an opening to ask about roles they dont understand to the ic without unintentionally (even unknowingly) softing themselves as that role -- because EVERYONE is doing it and MOST are going to be vt or scum! that gives noobs a leg up that the experienced folks already have, without shifting balance. important later, though not immediately.

third, you can always jump on random peoples questions and request followups. avoid q4 and you avoid looking like youre rolefishing. and by doing this you can grab onto anyones questions list as a thread to tug at if you want more info but dont want to be tugging on the latest discussion threads for whatever reason (cornering a suspicious player into a position, etc). it gives town a powerful tool by forcing everyone to put a bit of themselves up front at the start in a way that rvs doesnt quite do. furthermore, while you cant ask a latecomer to engage in rvs for tells, you can ask them to fill out the standard q&a sheet everyone else has got to drag info out of them. its easy to dodge a "oh whats your reads list" at this stage just coming in, too lazy to do a deep re-read or w/e you want really. it corners the lurkers into making a move that people can latch onto later if necessary, which (as you saw with my predecessor lol) isnt as easy without it.

ill seriously consider rqs 2.0 still, but im gonna wait for your reaction to this post.

p-edit: im ok with shade, but id WAY prefer schadd_, gbT or rask. moreso schadd_ or rask atm, im getting info out of gbT!

and yeah @gbT you totally strike me that way, imo were actually quite a lot alike haha


With the first point, you can usually get a good handle of someone's experience just from their posting. Schadd_ reads like he's played one or two games, you read about as experienced as me, while matt seems like a raw newb for example. It's an OK question I guess if you can't figure out how experienced players are based on how they play, but at least one of the SEs or Creautre should be able to say something.... Wrt to the meta question, it's an interesting point but we even saw in this game that it came up naturally in the discussion with Creature. After all, this is a social game, so if people already know each other it's going to come up in conversation. Plus, I think not forcing it into the discussion into a standardized questionnaire can give players the opportunity to see who actually makes the engagement to understand meta they are unfamiliar with (or even learn how to meta, since there's kind of a learning curve in getting that it's not "Player X does Y in Z situation" but "This is Player X's personality"). I'm reminded of the game where I was scum with one of my IRL friends and when that point came up, one of the townies wanted to know more about our relationship and use it as a baseline to read us due to a past game where the scumteam knew each other irl. That's obvtown as fuck.

The second point is actually a good counter-argument. I'll admit I've only heard one side of the argument and I agreed with it. Don't really have much else to say here other than I'll try to be more open-minded and let future experience decide how I feel about that question.

If I'm understanding the third point correctly, you believe the better play for me was to call out TB for question 4 and suggest something else? I've never really been a fan of RQS (again, it's a gimmick, I did it once, I did it enough times) so that isn't really going to come intuitively to me. I do like your point on how it's something you can force players to engage on, but wouldn't the same player who dodges the readlist question also just answer the RQS and nothing else? And the rest of the table engage with said lurker the same way (via rope or pressure)? Obviously not answering anything but an RQS isn't extremely alignment indicative for newer players as you would know from your predecessor, but still... I guess if you make the RQS more game-relevant (so like a generalized questionnaire about the gamestate?) then using it would be a lot more helpful/AI. If another newbie were to replace in (grey isn't a newb so), I could see asking a player to read for specific things while catching up or giving basic info about themselves (since once there's AI content it is a bit unnatural to just give that away since people want to jump straight into the game most of the time).

basically if it's not clear from what i wrote here i'd be down for RQS 2.0 if it weren't an RQS. but then i feel like that defeats the purpose of asking it at this point of the game since we have enough to go off of to ask specific questions to specific people, which gets more info than something generalized.

i'm like 90% sure i answered this the scum way :dead:
but honestly the fact that you seem to have an elaborate idea of how i should be answering this already thought up of is so town lmfao, i just hate disappointing people

also i saw during pedits...

@Matt, when did Rask become your top scumread??

going to read up now
i no longer strictly go by they/them and honestly prefer she/her but they/them's fine if you're used to it i guess

☭ I'm coming for that toothbrush ☭

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Post Post #580  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:02 am

UNVOTE: Rask

I don't want the day to end just yet. There's still plenty to talk about.

cassielle
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Post Post #581  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:02 am

here's my issues with your schadd_ read.

1: your first quote is a lot of nothing imo. schadd_ did notice you had "put pressure" on the tb wagon, yeah, but creature and i noticed it wasnt actually very good, very half-assed in fact. you just applied pressure, there was no direction and youve never been able to point out where you wanted to go with it, you just jumped on board. imo, schadd_'s early read there? wrong, incorrect, v bad. and rather than analyze his logic-read of you in any detail, you focus on the tone-read. a tone-read is weak and doesnt go places, in my experience, butyou treat it like its v towny. to me that read on you is weak badtown or NAI bad play. why do you see it differently here? why focus onthe gut read? if its because its hard to self-analyze, why not say that instead of saying that leaning on analytics for scumreads can make a person look scummy (which is sorta casting doubt on my approach when im on to you)?

230 is a fair read, i give you.

2: 489 isnt a bad conclusion, but i think your reasoning is spurious. while the nonchalance is a light towntell, its also a very common scum cover in my experience. its something you pick up easily after seeing people dismiss people as obvtown based on it, and your scum game can use that as a cover for not putting down a big masterpost (which is incidentally something youve arguably been doing since i joined). id call it NAI with scumlean for experienced players and townlean for noobs. but you didnt mention that ofc. then you have the non-reasoning "self-meta matches up" bit which is imo just about meaningless. its fluff, youre puffing up the content there without adding much, and you sort of wink at this with the "if that makes any sense" to give yourself an out. theres nothing town about that part of this explanation except not feeling a need to make it clearer -- except youre -in the hot seat- so you really should feel that need even as town???

3: finally, the scum hunting bit is something youre mostly using to bolster your own reads, which is arguably not scummy or even anti-town, but its avoiding the point of this whole process, yeah?

and now, youre feeling pressured at l-2, when you feel like l-1 is a fair amount of pressure to throw on a hapless noob in the early game? im calling you scum, buddy

p-edit: GBT! i owe you a good answer, ill give it after this, wb!

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Post Post #582  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:05 am

In post 580, mattblackguy wrote:UNVOTE: Rask

I don't want the day to end just yet. There's still plenty to talk about.

Caution tell.
“Trust is an orchid, beautiful but delicate, requiring ideal conditions in order to thrive. Without them, it dies.” - Dahrk (Arrow, Season 4)
---
"-grey- would hardclaim an inno on his obv-scum partner D2 in a micro if he could" - gigabyteTroubadour
"You type like a Bond villain." - DogWatch

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Post Post #583  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:05 am

In post 578, -Grey- wrote:
In post 575, Raskolnikov wrote:re:

Not quite convincing, potentially wrong on someone

Not quite convincing, potentially wrong on someone


That was the emphasis in that post. The point, the conclusion, of it. If on the other hand it all looked sunshine and daisies I might've just followed it on blind faith but is that what it looked like?
Though other townreads disagreeing with me there too was a part of it as well, perhaps you missed the context via just ISOing?

Will obviously you're potentially wrong on someone, but it's rather difficult to operate under the assumption you aren't right.

If your reads were genuine, I believe you would have voted me with the intention of finding my partner if I flipped red.

Putting me as a possible partner with two different players, them voting one of those other players instead of me in a later post reads fabricated as fuck.

VOTE: Rask

L-1

That would make sense if I said I liked the conclusions because it would be using that conclusion as the basis of my action.
Essentially my point there was I didn't like the conclusion, didn't want to use it, and that instead I should go back to drawing board and get some more information.
. Shade out all of those was the most likely to actually respond in a timely fashion. This is extremely context dependent and you're a replacement, but ask someone else who was active what the gamestate was at that time.
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cassielle
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Post Post #584  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:07 am

gbT is townlean for me. the answer cinched it, but the seed was planted when i saw post 277, where gbT is done being town leader and just gets down to straight up saying "i want peoples input". its not asked directly to those people (that would feel like scumbuddying) but their names are mentioned (much more neutral). the answers were just sheeping and gbT didnt call it out hardcore, but it was mentioned and thats not a super-scum move esp combined with "GIVE ME INPUT" (which tends to imply "GIVE ME THE GOOD AND GIVE ME THE BAD AND GIVE ME THE INSANE")

rask is THE SEVENTH CIRCLE now. mbg is scumlean, tb and shade are my prefered scumbuddies for rask. scum busses and tb flaked quick when the pressure ratcheted, and shades been distant but rask has been mostly ignoring shade until people started staring his way.

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Post Post #585  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:09 am

EBWOP also tb's new readlist is hella scummy

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Post Post #586  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:10 am

In post 584, cassielle wrote:rask is THE SEVENTH CIRCLE now. mbg is scumlean, tb and shade are my prefered scumbuddies for rask. scum busses and tb flaked quick when the pressure ratcheted, and shades been distant but rask has been mostly ignoring shade until people started staring his way.

Did you see how fast mbg unvoted when I put Rask to L-1?
“Trust is an orchid, beautiful but delicate, requiring ideal conditions in order to thrive. Without them, it dies.” - Dahrk (Arrow, Season 4)
---
"-grey- would hardclaim an inno on his obv-scum partner D2 in a micro if he could" - gigabyteTroubadour
"You type like a Bond villain." - DogWatch

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Post Post #587  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:11 am

In post 581, cassielle wrote:and now, youre feeling pressured at l-2, when you feel like l-1 is a fair amount of pressure to throw on a hapless noob in the early game? im calling you scum, buddy

That's not how it works... you apply pressure to see what comes out. To get a read.
Me doing that to other people isn't somehow contradictory to me not feeling a bit uncomfortable when it's me. I mean I lynch people but I wouldn't ever like being lynched either.

I'm not saying you don't have the "right" to vote me or pressure me or that it's inherently wrong, I'm not saying on principle pressuring is objectively bad, I just personally have tried to ease it up on me because it's me. I don't see your issue here.
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Post Post #588  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:12 am

In post 586, -Grey- wrote:
In post 584, cassielle wrote:rask is THE SEVENTH CIRCLE now. mbg is scumlean, tb and shade are my prefered scumbuddies for rask. scum busses and tb flaked quick when the pressure ratcheted, and shades been distant but rask has been mostly ignoring shade until people started staring his way.

Did you see how fast mbg unvoted when I put Rask to L-1?

Oh for godsakes :roll:
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Post Post #589  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:14 am

In post 584, cassielle wrote:tb and shade are my prefered scumbuddies for rask. scum busses and tb flaked quick when the pressure ratcheted, and shades been distant but rask has been mostly ignoring shade until people started staring his way.


For the record, I'm not flaking and I will be contributing to the game.

My problem with games is that I don't tend to respond well to pressure and don't know how to respond when people are SR'ing me. I tend to fall back when there is a wagon on me.
I have officially retired this account. My new account is Virtuoso.

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Post Post #590  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:14 am

In post 586, -Grey- wrote:Did you see how fast mbg unvoted when I put Rask to L-1?


We have 8 days left in the day, and I don't want to end it yet. With Rask at L-1 someone can just come and quickhammer him which I want to avoid for now.

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Post Post #591  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:15 am

In post 584, cassielle wrote:rask has been mostly ignoring shade until people started staring his way.

Funny enough it's actually the other way around, I looked at him earlier back before any of this and have been ignoring him since in my preoccupation.

Not sure how you get this conclusion if you actually look at the timestamps.
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Post Post #592  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:16 am

In post 590, mattblackguy wrote:
In post 586, -Grey- wrote:Did you see how fast mbg unvoted when I put Rask to L-1?


We have 8 days left in the day, and I don't want to end it yet. With Rask at L-1 someone can just come and quickhammer him which I want to avoid for now.

And what do you think would happen in the event of a quick-hammer?

That's right, Sherlock, even bad things teach us something.
“Trust is an orchid, beautiful but delicate, requiring ideal conditions in order to thrive. Without them, it dies.” - Dahrk (Arrow, Season 4)
---
"-grey- would hardclaim an inno on his obv-scum partner D2 in a micro if he could" - gigabyteTroubadour
"You type like a Bond villain." - DogWatch

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Post Post #593  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:16 am

@grey yeah i saw but thats why hes scumlean. i DO NOT like putting 4 people in my top scumlist, it feels wrong because half of that list is then incorrect. i prefer 3 people, and atm i feel like shade and tb owe us a loooot of explanation before we consider swapping one of them out.

@rask all true, but the thing is we have no clue about you being town. we dont know who you are at all tbh lol. and you just stink of scum all over, thats like the WIFOM thing i had with schadd_ -- a sprinkle of sugar on the top of a massive diabetes sundae, yeah? youre focusing onthe weakest part of my argument there, true, but youre missing that its also the most trivial. also the shade thing -- you expressed a bit of doubt then ignored it and focused hard on tb and rakkar lol, then when i come in and start pointing at you you swap to shade p much immediately. thats what i read buddy

@matt quickhammer would be a scum indicator from where im standing and id make it a policy lynch to wreck them on d2 for it.

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Post Post #594  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:22 am

btw from where im standing, i really dont want anyone putting rask at l-1 anyway just yet for diff reasons. i think its funny how he considered l-2 a lot of pressure but thought nothing of putting tb on l-1, it was something creature, i and prob others have found extremely lazy and half assed directionless pressure. we have a direction were taking this wagon, and we have less weight on it, why the squirming? theres a lot of trying to say "well obviously id be nervous its me not them" but i mean he seems incapable of seeing it from onthe outside where he took tb's breaking under pressure as a scumtell???

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Post Post #595  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:25 am

In the end, all I really can do is show you is why and specifically how your arguments are wrong, because I know they're wrong at the end the break in the chain along the way is generally easy to find.

If I succeed, and you then want to then go ahead and say "well you're technically right but I still have a terrible feeling about you and it'll never go away" then I can't help that, but alas.
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Post Post #596  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:26 am

In post 593, cassielle wrote:@matt quickhammer would be a scum indicator from where im standing and id make it a policy lynch to wreck them on d2 for it.


This is fair. I guess I just saw L-1, and overreacted because L-1 just seems scary.

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Post Post #597  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:28 am

theres a lot of arguments youll have to find spurious reasoning in now. for now lets talk about the pressure, because i mean, no one but mbg seems particularly upset about this turn of events and mbg was only worried about l-1 because quickhammer. l-2 is perfectly comfortable on this side, and you dont understand us looking at your squirming as scummy.

why? i mean, tb broke under more, earlier, with worse and fewer arguments against him. what makes you so different that we need to read you differently than you did him?

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Post Post #598  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:29 am

In post 594, cassielle wrote:i think its funny how he considered l-2 a lot of pressure but thought nothing of putting tb on l-1,

No, putting tb up was also a lot of pressure, both are. As I said, I also wagon and lynch people but don't like it happening to me. Not clear what the contradiction is, unless you think people are supposed to behave like robots or something.
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Post Post #599  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:31 am

no, i think youre dodging the point. not liking pressure to you is scummy. you treated tb's reaction as def scum. said there was no pro-town reason for it and implied it was unlikely he had any good argument in favor of it.

so why, when we apply that reasoning to you, is it somehow different?

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