Mini 1868 - Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love Mafia [GAME OVER]

[shadonra]

VOTE: Aj the epic

Scum used to be hard to find

VOTE: Aj the epic

[shadonra]

I think Medea is town. I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

I posted a couple times, we talked more about the setup while getting ready to go out and agreed with my initial reaction that no-lynching and massclaiming weren't good ideas, considered if there were any obvious things to suggest in-thread be done with the set-up, decided no (that changed for me tonight with floating hypo claiming). Went out and didn't think about it again until tonight.

I don't like the look of Indigo - justifies their actions a bit too thoroughly, but I don't think I'm interested in it right now. They do the weird thing too consistently and it might be meta for them.

Why are people townreading AJ? I saw an appeal to meta somewhere, but I still don't like his posts very much at all.

[shadonra]

What don't you like about AJ's posts?

AJ's iso looks like this.

"setup spec setup spec setup spec"

"i hate setup spec! i never do setup spec"

"fate doesn't post"

It looks like he wanted to post but wasn't interested in saying anything.

[shadonra]

What don't you like about AJ's posts?

AJ's iso looks like this.

"setup spec setup spec setup spec"

"i hate setup spec! i never do setup spec"

"fate doesn't post"

It looks like he wanted to post but wasn't interested in saying anything.

Not really getting that vibe at all.

Eh, I reread his ISO and I kinda agree. Latest few posts make me think my read on him was bad.

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

I lean scum on posts like this (why does he get to do that and I don't? kinda thing)

I would have joined the fun and silently voted LUV, if not for my already being on him. I don't like the post because he is being entirely silent on why he voted and one can not reasonably guess why. Presumably the vote, but why the vote. It just creates a worse atmosphere. However, as I said, I'm already on him.

Why does my naked vote create a worse atmosphere and BB's doesn't? He just naked vote in 208.

[shadonra]

I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

Is there a reason that conversation couldn't have existed if they were scum?

No, only that I don't really think setup spec is high on the list of things for scum to talk about.

[shadonra]

I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

Is there a reason that conversation couldn't have existed if they were scum?

No, only that I don't really think setup spec is high on the list of things for scum to talk about.

setup talk benefits scum. it's unlikely to get any thing done this early and prevents them having to scumhunt.

I was referring to the out-of-thread conversation, not in-thread setup spec. I'm giving you scum points for this post.

[shadonra]

Sure

[shadonra]

Nothing is jumping out to me atm or I'd be talking about it

I say this more often as scum than town, but I'm not sure what kind of tell it is for other people

Rest of his posts seem town though.

I'm starting to lean scum on Realeo. 384 strikes me more as white knighting than a real defense, mostly because of the mention of day 2 lylo, and 387 appears shallow to me. I think I would lean scum on Reflektor, but it's hard to muster the will to dig through his posts.

[shadonra]

I think Medea is town. I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

I think this is a shallow observation.

I don't think that the shallowness of this observation makes it a weaker town case. It is clearly shallow. If you believe that Medea, just returned from hiatus, would fake this conversation as scum, fine. But I find this unlikely.

re: randommidget post:
He made the argument that scum likes to setup spec inthread essentially to fake activity. This was not the basis for my townread, and his argument doesn't strike me as having thought things through - he's just trying to score a point.

re: realeo:
That's a good point - I had actually forgotten that he replaced for Tammy. I should go back and reread her posts.

[shadonra]

Oh, you're talking about making town contributions, not the actual cases. You don't need to reply to my post then

[shadonra]

I'll post something later

[shadonra]

I don't think that the shallowness of this observation makes it a weaker town case. It is clearly shallow. If you believe that Medea, just returned from hiatus, would fake this conversation as scum, fine. But I find this unlikely.

I think the problem is more with the premise that scum don't talk about or don't need to talk about setup speculation; if Cabd is playing, setup speculation is a part of his approach to the game regardless of alignment so townreading him for that is meh. In general, I don't think that talking about setup spec is a town tell like you think it is; that's why I find the observation shallow/weak.

ok, we disagree

re: randommidget post:
He made the argument that scum likes to setup spec inthread essentially to fake activity. This was not the basis for my townread, and his argument doesn't strike me as having thought things through - he's just trying to score a point.

He didn't understand your point, sure - why assign him scumpoints for it?

it looked to me like he was just trying to score a gotcha, but i've reconsidered. i think this wagon is leaving too readily.

i'm not down with medea wagon. slot doesn't look like scum to me. i'd rather have bbmolla or grey: bbmolla bc i actually hated the sideline comment on the randommidget wagon and grey for tossing mad shade everywhere (also indigo wasn't good, but not much posts so ..). uhh, i might also be able to go for realeo. widely townread tammy makes me reconsider, tho i'm having a pretty hard time getting a read on her myself.

VOTE: grey

[shadonra]

bbmolla bc i actually hated the sideline comment on the randommidget wagon

The sideline comment you're referring to is talking about disliking Fate's push on it or...?

Yah.

LUV has not really posted his actual opinions on anything. He's just been asking people questions. I don't like that, but he claims it's NAI for him and I haven't looked at any of his other games yet, so *shrug*. I'd like to see him post more stuff tho

[shadonra]

VOTE: Aj the epic

Scum used to be hard to find

*insert snarky response about you just being bad*

There's really no point in worrying about D2 already. If Vig shoots tonight and misses, then we'll have to mass claim tomorrow. That's about all there is to it.

Empking! BbMolla! Why don't you scumread this? Isn't this robotic~not scared of apocalyptic commet attack attitude

Sorry, I'll reprogram myself to be hysterical at the thought of going into Lylo day 2.

OMG A SCENARIO THAT MIGHT HAPPEN BUT MIGHT NOT WHY THE FUCK DO I EXIST SOMEONE SAVE MY SOUL FROM THIS GAME AHHH LYLO

Is that enough for you? Dude it's not hard. We lynch scum, scenario doesn't happen. There's no point getting concerned about something we can prevent by just being good.

(Trying to determine where scum is going to vote isn't useful until we actually know something).

We are a little bit desperate at this point.

Vig and GS really should consider shooting and gunning

Vig should shoot for more info.

GS should gun for a clear in potentialy D2 lylo.

...no the GS shouldn't give a gun.

I'm disappointed that there aren't more LUV opinions in thread right now, especially from Fate; I understand you might not want to follow, but I'd hope a bro vote would at least be worth an honorableention.

As far as I'm concerned, you're the one with the most ability to read/understand him. I see your comparison and understand where you're coming from but I also kinda really want RM to show what he really is.



On this note, why is Persivul getting so universally townread? Noticing it in Realo's reads, it's come up in Grey's too? And at least one other person.

its bc scum think hes obvtown and are townreading him for towncred rofl

[shadonra]

I think Medea is town. I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

I think this is a shallow observation.

@Realeo

I'm actually down with a lot of your opinion posts, I can understand where you're coming from. It's just all of your noncontent (setup spec etc.) posts scum-ping me nonstop, like "vig should shoot" etc. and I can't find a townread for Tammy.

Why do you think Grey is town, again? I don't see consistency as being particularly AI, especially on day 1.

[shadonra]

oops, there shouldnt be a quote there

[shadonra]

Than why you said I'm shallow? What is a shallow setup-spec?

....or is it someone else?

Not sure what you're talking about. re: grey - you're assuming that Medea is scum. It's easy for scum to hop between town wagons day 1.

[shadonra]

Than why you said I'm shallow? What is a shallow setup-spec?

....or is it someone else?

Not sure what you're talking about.

re: grey - you're assuming that Medea is scum. It's easy for scum to hop between town wagons day 1.

ebwop

[shadonra]

Let's get a grey wagon.

#350: Claims Persivul is shade throwing. Actually it's Grey that's throwing shade; I think Persivul is unlikely to throw shade by making a weird leap of logic like Grey is assuming.
#365: I think this post is bizarre. Two ways I could take this; you're either scumreading AJ or you think the quoted post is supertown. But

you don't vote AJ

and I don't think the quoted post is supertown.

Oh, you are scumreading AJ. OK, but why no vote?

Eh. If Grey is town:
1) He's confbiased pretty hard on Persivul
2) He didn't vote a bunch of scumreads (persivul, aj)
3) He's voted Medea, which I don't think has a good case on it, and Grey hasn't provided much of a case either.

Grey - why do you think Medea is scum over AJ and Persivul, particularly AJ, over whose vote you're willing to townclear bbmolla?

[shadonra]

Good point =/

Would you mind to share your readlist?

I think sharing readlists tends to help scum.. I would rather not, but I will if you want.

[shadonra]

Grey - why do you think Medea is scum over AJ and Persivul, particularly AJ, over whose vote you're willing to townclear bbmolla?

I'm not feeling a scumread on Persivul, and I don't see why it's so hard to understand that it's possible to scumread more than one person at the same time.

OK, but you scumread AJ, and you have since before you were voting Medea. Why do you prefer to lynch Medea over AJ?

[shadonra]

VOTE: BBMolla

I'd still rather have Grey.

[shadonra]

@Mod:
Could we get a vote count?

[shadonra]

VOTE: grey

[shadonra]

You should vote grey with me

[shadonra]

@Mod BBMolla is voting for 2 people. Is that a mistake?

[shadonra]

Let's get a grey wagon.

#350: Claims Persivul is shade throwing. Actually it's Grey that's throwing shade; I think Persivul is unlikely to throw shade by making a weird leap of logic like Grey is assuming.
#365: I think this post is bizarre. Two ways I could take this; you're either scumreading AJ or you think the quoted post is supertown. But

you don't vote AJ

and I don't think the quoted post is supertown.

Oh, you are scumreading AJ. OK, but why no vote?

Eh. If Grey is town:
1) He's confbiased pretty hard on Persivul
2) He didn't vote a bunch of scumreads (persivul, aj)
3) He's voted Medea, which I don't think has a good case on it, and Grey hasn't provided much of a case either.

Grey - why do you think Medea is scum over AJ and Persivul, particularly AJ, over whose vote you're willing to townclear bbmolla?

IMO this is the best case on anyone today. Otherwise I wouldn't be voting grey.

[shadonra]

I wish I could get them! I'd like to note that it's much harder to move a wagon against a scum than a town on d1, and this should be (weak) evidence for my case right now.

[shadonra]

Can you show me a case that you find persuasive on someone?

[shadonra]

Aj The Epic - -Grey-, BBMolla, Empking, randomidget (L-2)
is this really a town wagon? really???

[shadonra]

for me the townest person in those 5 names is either empking or randommidget, it's close, but i feel like no one in the game is townreading all of those 4 on the right

[shadonra]

I don't feel like nolynch favors scum very much in this setup. Town has two cops (with possibly wrong results, but still!) and a doctor. If there's a wagon I don't like at L-1 at deadline, I'm not hammering.

[shadonra]

FATE PLS

[shadonra]

don't shoot, medea

you're probably just gonna get roleblocked anyway, and scum isn't killing you tonight

[shadonra]

i think it's wrong to shoot, bc the only reason they wouldnt roleblock you is if your reads are totally off

[shadonra]

[shadonra]

i don't think he's very town

i think he's about as town as extremely lurky randommidget

[shadonra]

if aj flips scum i will apologize and i won't turbolynch you tomorrow

if he doesn't,

[shadonra]

if aj flips scum i will apologize and i won't turbolynch you tomorrow

if he doesn't,

Nah bro, I'm thinking you're my d2 push.

All depends on how I feel about it after tonight.

i'll gladly 1v1 you tomorrow

[shadonra]

no one is suggesting that you've bussed, realeo is misunderstanding a typo

[shadonra]

town for sure

[shadonra]

At this point I'm going to assume it flips town, I wasn't really the biggest fan of either vote. Nacho thought Aj over BB and that's more than I had.

Empking/Persivul/Fate are all ondeck for me, even though I doubt those are all 3.

-Prism

ooh, shoulda bussed grey. you're scum too, huh

[shadonra]

did you read any of his scum games other than the newbie

i've noticed that people tend to be calmer in newbies sometimes

[shadonra]

OK, noted

[shadonra]

GET IN HERE

[shadonra]

Y'all should unvote AJ

[shadonra]

Hammer without discussion is scumclaim

[shadonra]

If no one wants Grey I want Reflektor tbh

[shadonra]

Yes Realeo, but I still think no lynch is better than lynching a bad wagon

[shadonra]

No.

We have a ML.

With 4 mafia in the game, I am banking on VCA.

We can trade a ML for an extra night of 2 townclears or guilties. Come on.

[shadonra]

Also, you can do VCA at L-1.

[shadonra]

No.

We have a ML.

With 4 mafia in the game, I am banking on VCA.

We can trade a ML for an extra night of 2 townclears or guilties. Come on.

Ye. With a Godfather in play. How smart.

(Obviously this is sarcasm : ON)

So don't trust every cop clear. Gunsmith is still reliable.

[shadonra]

Fair warning I'm going to be drinking pretty heavily starting 20 minutes ago but I'll be checking my phone if anything comes up.

-Prism

i've also started drinking, just heads up

[shadonra]

Also, you can do VCA at L-1.

VCA relies on flip. With no flip, I cannot decide if it's wisdom of the crowd or scum sheeping.

Do you think AJ is towncleared now?

[shadonra]

I thought that was already hammered. I want to unvote but I see no alternative I can get other than Molla.

Scumreading Grey makes more sense to now but still doubt it.

shadonra:

Why do you think our slot is scum?

-Prism

Bad associations with Grey is one thing. Let me try to remember the rest of the read, it's a few days old and I've forgotten some of the reasoning.

[shadonra]

Empking could easily be scum. I think nothing of randommidget unvoting, because I also unvoted at that time.

[shadonra]

Cop turns as guilty for gunsmith.

I appreciate your optimism but no.

I am not that concerned about this possibility. I wouldn't mind if this game eventually boiled down to dealing with a cop counterclaim.

[shadonra]

Empking could easily be scum

Unless you are suggesting Empking bus Aj, I don't think so.

Why are you assuming AJ is scum

[shadonra]

I'm showing how AJ's current opinion of my slot is total trash.

There's plenty of reason to hammer him.

I read your meta and had largely similar thought processes with AJ. His opinion of your slot doesn't make me worried.

[shadonra]

Cop turns as guilty for gunsmith.

I appreciate your optimism but no.

I am not that concerned about this possibility. I wouldn't mind if this game eventually boiled down to dealing with a cop counterclaim.

I find your respond is irrelevant.

I think your objections to letting double cop do their thing are
1) not likely to be dangerous, and
2) not likely in the first place.

[shadonra]

Empking could easily be scum

Unless you are suggesting Empking bus Aj, I don't think so.

Why are you assuming AJ is scum

Did I?

You used the word "bus", suggesting that both empking and AJ are scum.

[shadonra]

I'm referring to gunsmith as a cop. It's very close to being a cop.

[shadonra]

I'm a little tempted. What time is the deadline? 12 hours from now?

[shadonra]

VOTE: Grey
VOTE: GreyVOTE: Grey
VOTE: Grey
VOTE: Grey
VOTE: Grey
VOTE: Grey
VOTE: Grey
VOTE: GreyVOTE: Grey

[shadonra]

theres my answer

[shadonra]

I pointed out where my thought process diverged from AJ's and why.

[shadonra]

Grey you realize that in no point of my read did I make a verdict about your alignment.

You decided that verdict yourself.

Considering the content of your posts, it was a foregone conclusion.

If you want to state otherwise, I'd love to see you try to justify it.

You realize that his meta read suggested that you were town?

[shadonra]

did you read any of his scum games other than the newbie

i've noticed that people tend to be calmer in newbies sometimes

whoops, meant to quote this earlier, just noticed i didnt post

[shadonra]

Sorry, that was a lapse in thinking

[shadonra]

your increasing panic as the day drags on is not making me think any better of you

[shadonra]

Grey you realize that in no point of my read did I make a verdict about your alignment.

You decided that verdict yourself.

Considering the content of your posts, it was a foregone conclusion.

If you want to state otherwise, I'd love to see you try to justify it.

You realize that his meta read suggested that you were town?

this is the lapse i meant - the rest of my reasoning is OK

[shadonra]

your increasing panic as the day drags on is not making me think any better of you

Panic, is it?

Tell me, where did I give you any indication that I give a damn what you think of me?

i mean, you shouldn't care

it's just that i'm going to lynch you and you're going to flip scum

[shadonra]

VOTE: Grey

[shadonra]

Mod said dayvig shots end the day, so there's no point dictating the shot as a group

[shadonra]

Hey mod! When day vig shoots (from GS?), how does day vig shoots? Does they post in this thread like

Shoot: Donald Drumpf

Or secretly from PM?

(I'm using orange italic. I'm not impersonating mod since mod is orange bold =D)

I nearly missed this post. As it states in the rules, please use bolded text to get my attention.

Day vig will send me a message in pm.

Does a shot in this manner end the game's day?

BTW because of this handing out a gun and allowing anyone to shoot in secret is inherently antitown.

Yes. It does.

[shadonra]

that makes it all the more important to determine it as a group.

A townie should participate in the discussion before they shoot. Obviously if the GS didnt get an inno and gives it to a scumfuck THAT person will shoot immediately and end the day

If you determine the dayvig as a group it's the same as lynching.

[shadonra]

most of last page is garbage

people are still doing setup spec on day 2. scumreading people for suggesting weak lines for PRs to follow is not good, i think doing that is somewhere between NAI and towny.

@LUV yeah what do you think of reflektor now?

@Fate do you have a non-omgus reason for voting molla

[shadonra]

Aj The Epic - -Grey-, BBMolla, Empking, randomidget (L-2)
is this really a town wagon? really???

You're going to really complain about that?
1) it's near deadline, wagon comp isn't a big worry at that point
2) bussing happens

yes, i still think the wagon was garbage. none of it really looked like bussing, and i think it's likely that 2 of those 4 are scum. add to that that i don't think lynching day 1 in this setup is that great anyway.

[shadonra]

I'm getting hardcore scum pings from shadons last two posts

do you feel like explaining that

[shadonra]

I'm getting hardcore scum pings from shadons last two posts

do you feel like explaining that

I do feel what Bbmolla's said so let me say it as ell

[1] Saying that setup speccing is bad

people are still doing setup spec on day 2

but trying to justify that he doesn't has any blood on his hand using setup speccing..

add to that that i don't think lynching day 1 in this setup is that great anyway.

[2] Saying the wagon is bad

yes, i still think the wagon was garbage. none of it really looked like bussing, and i think it's likely that 2 of those 4 are scum.

But never actually defended AJ. Keep in mind that pushing alternative wagon (ie. -Grey-) is different to defending AJ.

It all seems like you're Pontious Pilates trying to was his hand. "Oh, I did not crucify Jesus. So if it went wrong, you cannot blame me, but I don't like it, but I'm not going to do anything."

I'll cop to setup speccing

yesterday

about whether we should lynch or not. I certainly won't take any of the blame for AJ getting lynched, considering that I tried to stop the wagon on him and was pushing a separate wagon.

[shadonra]

I am rereading shadonra's iso and I cannot still believe that he believes that his case at -Grey- is topkek.

I'm sure that at least some of it is gut/confbias and I'm not expressing the gut stuff well. I'll probably go back and try to put more of it into words tonight. Kinda waiting on Gamma and Empking to post more, they're unreadable lumps for me at this point and I don't like that feeling.

[shadonra]

Vote: Fate

- If there's a town leader its him, but we're not getting anywhere. I don't relly hsve any scumreads. I don't tink many people do. And I think if there's someone to poin to for that then its Fate.

this vote is bad

What makes it null lurking and not scum lurking?

Quote specific posts if you can please

You

haven't

quoted his supposedly scummy posts. You

have

said that he skated by D1 and hasn't done fuckall.

You've also said that you were getting cop vibes from him D1, but haven't explained why those vibes couldn't have also come from a gunsmith.

Scum generally have incentive not to make waves, but in this setup a lot of people would also play a PR not to make waves. You're scum reading a lurker on nothing,

despite getting cop vibes from him, and that looks like scum trying to run a potential PR up to see if there's a claim

.

VOTE: Fate

bolded part is bad, the rest is why i'm

VOTE: fate

I really don't like you pushing two lurkers on d2 and claiming they're both scum when they continue to lurk. I don't think scum is more likely to do that than disengaged town.

[shadonra]

sorry, having some trouble getting back into the game right now. i'll make a real post tomorrow

[shadonra]

1) I disagree with the case on Persivul because I came to the same conclusions as him, so I can understand his thought process. I think he could still be scum, but not for this reason.

emp scummy, he feels fake in his logic and it feels indicative of maf trying to bs logic

2) I'm reading Gamma's ISO. I think that if both Realeo and Grey are town, Gamma is scum. I think I agree with Pers that Realeo townslipped, but I still think Grey is scum.

3) I think Molla's town because he was really extremely wrong on all of day 1 and 2, but he seems like he could try that as scum too, so I'm not sure

4) Scum probably didn't hunt down doctor, I'm guessing doctor managed to save the NK target and died because that's how KBW's doc works.

5) I can't get through Reflektor's ISO because there are so many walls, I really want to scumread him by POE but I don't think it's a reasonable thing to do

I really want to say that Grey and Reflektor are scum but no one seems to make sense as the third; I think that means I should reevaluate my reads again. Rereading is gonna be a chore...

[shadonra]

oops, that quote is there bc I want to say that that's townish from Gamma and the progression is reasonable

[shadonra]

Gamma, did you crumb "I got fate guilty n1" anywhere or am I going to hammer you?

[shadonra]

well I'm glad you decided to claim scum so I don't have to be paranoid anymore

STill Reflektor as RB

RB is probably out of shots already.
KBW's wacky gunsmith rules weren't clear until today and if the scumteam is so much as vaguely intelligent instead of just blindingly lucky they went for the block N1 and on you N2, so your RB fear is probably overblown.

There was no town information available by the time he made this post to indicate that I had not indeed given the gun to Medea and that I was RBd.

SHOOT REFLEKTOR DEAD BANG BANG

Fate, it's hard for me to get behind this. You think the scum decided to not use their RB when there was a claimed gunsmith with a confirmed guilty and the cop was dead? How is that at all a reasonable decision from them?

[shadonra]

No, I think scum DID use their RB on the claimed VIGILANTE

How is that not a basic assumption of optimal play? Run it by me

I consider Gunsmith (which is just a perfect cop, in this situation) stronger than Vig in this situation. I didn't really think anyone would think vig was stronger, but if that's not true then I'll withdraw my objection.

[shadonra]

I really want to say that Grey and Reflektor are scum but no one seems to make sense as the third; I think that means I should reevaluate my reads again. Rereading is gonna be a chore...

What is you with Reflektor? I look at your iso and I realize that unlike --Grey--, I don't get full message of you scumreading Reflektor?

Can I request answer for this? If the momentum is "We're not lynching GE", I can see me start building a wagon for you?

I find your stubborness of "Reflketor---Grey--" is a red flag.

GE is obvscum, it doesn't matter if we lynch him now or later. Wagoning me might be good, I might be able to get my head into the game

I had some vague scumread on Reflektor on Day 1 because I disagreed heavily with him on Medea. Since then it's more of a confbias thing...

Can I ask why people are townreading Grey (that isn't general tone)? I seriously don't get it and I'm not sure I ever got an answer out of anyone.

[shadonra]

Since then it's more of a confbias thing...

Then wky fucking stay with it?

I haven't got much better reads. Persivul is stubbornly resistant to being read at all (I meta'd him and it didn't help). I thought Fate was scum vs Empking but that was wrong. I've thought you were scum several times but now I'm pretty sure you can't be. The pool is Grey + Reflektor + Persivul + Molla, two of those are scum, right? It could easily be Persivul, but I can't confidently confirm or dismiss that possibility. Molla could be scum, but I'm really not getting the scum vibe from him (I did not meta him, though). It leaves me with Grey, who I am still waiting on a reason to townread, and then Reflektor is like a coinflip with Pers and Molla.

[shadonra]

Molla could be scum, but I'm really not getting the scum vibe from him (I did not meta him, though).

Would you help me and explain why you don't get scum vibe from him? My reason to townread Molla is as thick as a hair.

i was townreading off his day 1 anger. rereading his iso i agree with you, he looks awful

[shadonra]

intent to hammer

[shadonra]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[shadonra]

This is a good lynch. I'm sorry I couldn't get more into the game - honestly, I should have replaced out a while ago. Sorry town.