Micro 670: Death Miller Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[Lemons]

VOTE: rb

Stop being salty.

[Lemons]

Soft, definitely.

[Lemons]

@karnos

I'll say it right now: if a cop gets a guilty on me, you lynch me, it's just the correct play.

Is that not the same as saying, "If I turn out to be Death Miller, I give up"?

Also, getting a town feeling from rb right now so VOTE: culted because I want them to say something.

[Lemons]

I get the feeling that rb was using dumb off-topic posts as a way to provoke some kind of reaction. I noticed that as soon as he felt he had a lead with Charloux, his grammar suddenly improved drastically and his arguments started making sense. This seems like a town-motivated way to try to get the ball moving and discussion going.

[Lemons]

@lion
Why do you think RK is town?

@culted
Serious vote or RVS?

[Lemons]

I'm still thinking rb is town, but yeah that logic is not the best. At the same time, Charloux seems very defensive, but I'm not seeing anything overtly scummy.

Karnos' comments on the Death Miller stuff really do seem a bit scummy though. Including himself in the example could be just a cautious townie move, as it makes him seem more committed to his assertion that all cop scum reads should be lynched. Alternatively, if he were scum, that could be a way to buy a bit of credit. It seems suspicious.

For now I'll keep my vote on culted since they still haven't said anything substantial.

[Lemons]

Oh, you were serious about that.
Okay, without much to go on, I'd guess it was not a serious vote.

[Lemons]

Interesting.
Care to share why?

[Lemons]

If you refuse to answer my question in 87, I will treat it as a literal scumclaim

Of course you will. When the time comes I will explain.

VOTE: karnos
L-2

[Lemons]

I'm willing to admit that my vote on karnos may have been a kneejerk reaction to something due to my limited experience. Now that I have more time/less stress, I'm going to reread the thread later and see if my opinions change at all.
I would like to hear about the read on culted as well. Is it only because he disagreed with you about karnos?

[Lemons]

I didn't say I was townreading karnos, just that I wanted to rethink my read now that I have the time.

Karnos, what are your opinions on anything other than GuiltyLion?

[Lemons]

Really, Charloux?
Really?

[Lemons]

We're not, he's trying to rush lynching himself. :/

[Lemons]

I asked you, and I was waiting for an answer. Of course, that doesn't excuse my lurking in general. I have excuses about why I haven't been able to post, but I'd rather put my money where my mouth is and start contributing.

My initial vote on karnos was based mostly on something I saw scum do in my previous game. That being, claim to have some kind of 'plan' all game while refusing to share information. That said, there could be legitimate town reasons for this which I hadn't considered. Looking over karnos vs GL now, I still find karnos looking scummier between the two. GL has given good reasoning and has occasionally tried to contribute to other areas of the conversation. Karnos on the other hand has really only been defending himself and throwing shade toward his accusers, now including myself. It's interesting he would single me out for lurking, and not maker or angel.

Charloux's frustration seems forced to me. I can't understand how someone would get this upset over a day 1 L-2, to the point of self voting. It's also suspicious that he hasn't voted for anyone he finds scummy, as others have pointed out.

Rb still seems town. He's been contributing to conversation in a mostly constructive way, and I really don't see scummy intent there, even if Charloux flipped town.

Everyone else is null for now.

As I still find karnos the most scummy here, my vote will stay on him, though a charloux lynch could be alright.

[Lemons]

I'd also like to hear your opinions on RK.
Agreed about angel and BTD. Regardless of timezone, Angel is lurking pretty hard right now. All he's done is pop up occasionally and remind everyone how much time we have left in the day.

Charloux's frustration seems forced to me. I can't understand how someone would get this upset over a day 1 L-2, to the point of self voting. It's also suspicious that he hasn't voted for anyone he finds scummy, as others have pointed out.

I don't buy this and neither should you. You can't understand him being upset, why not ask him about it? Why is it suspicious that he hasn't voted, why is that something that scum is more likely to do than town? Especially since other people have been asking him about it and voting him for it already.

He's already said why he's supposedly so upset, and it essentially came down to 'rb pushed me and RK made a baseless vote'. To me it sounds like someone trying to play the part of frustrated town to derail a wagon. Voting or not voting doesn't mean a lot now, since he's already been called out for it, as you said. The suspicious part is why he didn't vote before now, when people weren't questioning him on it.

[Lemons]

You're both town lol

Who are you referring to?

[Lemons]

Why do you think so?

[Lemons]

Agreed that them being scumteam seems very unlikely. Where are your townreads of them coming from though?

[Lemons]

I've already said why karnos feels scummy to me.
How are they both playing like town? I'm honestly just trying to get you to elaborate a bit, like you asked GL to explain her read on RK.

[Lemons]

Elaborate to help us see things from your perspective. If you really think they're both town, and you are town, you would want to help stear us away from lynching them, would you not?

Also holy cow ArcAngel is here. ArcAngel, what do you think of everything? What are your reads?

[Lemons]

I could get behind an ArcAngel lynch at this point. Compared to BTD she's been far worse. BTD has at least given some arguments here and there regarding GL and karnos and has his vote on someone. Arc has contributed basically nothing. Seems content to sit back while we fight amongst ourselves.

[Lemons]

In fact, by encouraging the day to drag on as long as possible, without actually moving the conversation forward, Arc is actively hurting the town.
VOTE: ArcAngel9

[Lemons]

I find Arc's play (or lack thereof) much more detrimental and scummier than Charloux's. That said, since I am fairly certain that one, probably both scum are in [Charloux, AA6, karnos], I'd be willing to vote Charloux if need be.

[Lemons]

Hi ds! This game is definitely going better than your last one. Let us know what you think once you're caught up.

[Lemons]

Karnos' concers seem sincere to me.
I still think AA is our best lynch today, especially with such little time left, but I see nothing wrong with giving her a chance to defend.

[Lemons]

GL was really the best kill for scum. If karnos isn't scum, it now puts a lot of shade on him for potentially killing his rival, and scum could push for a lynch. If karnos is scum, he can point out how bad this makes him look, and try to push someone else. Scum could stear the conversation either way.
It's possible the jailkeeper was on karnos since he's been claiming PR, if we have one.

[Lemons]

@mod

With 7 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Don't you mean 4?

[Lemons]

Charloux is still looking pretty scummy from day 1, especially since he seemed to get mysteriously quiet as soon as the wagon was off of him and on AA. When he was about to be lynched it seemed like he wanted to leave the town with as much info as possible, posting his read list and such, but as soon as the pressure was off he got quiet. Since AA flipped town, this seems sketchy.
Karnos is still scumlean for reasons I've said, though his concern over the AA lynch seemed somewhat sincere, as I said before, which gives me pause. GL's kill and karnos' vote on me is pretty irrelevant as it could be coming from scum!karnos or town!karnos equally. It is a bit Interesting how his vote came just 2 minutes after the day started though. Seems like not a lot of time to think about the NK.
Your willingness to jump on karnos after the GL kill was a bit sketchy but you're still mostly null for me.
And of course I'd like to see BTD contribute more.

[Lemons]

VOTE: Charloux

[Lemons]

What made you start scumreading karnos then?

[Lemons]

Your filler question is WIFOM for the same reason GL's kill can' be used for or against karnos. Scum!you could have easily killed GL specifically because she defended you. Or not. Impossible to tell.

[Lemons]

If you look a little closer you will notice that i got quiet as soon as i posted my "reads", the wagon just strayed away from me after that.

Why did you get quiet after posting your reads then? And why stay quiet once you were no longer the target?

[Lemons]

Also, since your reads have changed, who do you think is scum now?

[Lemons]

What about them seems scum to you?

[Lemons]

Ds, could you elaborate on your reads?

Rb, why are you scumreading rk/ds?

Charloux... okay.

[Lemons]

Karnos, why do you feel the wagon on you was scum pushed?

[Lemons]

Culted is definitely leaning town for me right now. Not really following karnos' logic there. I can see what he means about 160, but seems like pretty flimsy evidence.
Rb, I can't tell if he's scum trying to take advantage of the situation to lynch lurkers, or if he really is just frustrated with the game. Probably the latter.
Charloux still seems scum, and now he's gone back to lurking it seems. Kind of hard to move forward when the main wagon target doesn't say anything for a week, apart from updating us about feminists.

It is now January 5th, so I'm hoping BTD6 decides to show up.

[Lemons]

Interesting how your internet exclusively allows you to post irrelevant updates Charloux.
Rb, is it true you're funding aweful humor? Seems like a bad investment.

[Lemons]

That's gonna get real annoying if we ever need to iso you.

[Lemons]

Crap the game suddenly picked up while I was busy. I'll post my thoughts tomorrow. If anyone has questions for me I'll answer them as well.
Culted, what did you see in Charloux's iso that gave you such a strong town read?

[Lemons]

After a read through I'm not liking Culted. For the whole day he's been pushing hard on karnos and seemed certain karnos was scum. Then karnos claims PR, and suddenly Culted is ready to believe him completely and shifts focus to BTD. He even calls out BTD for trying to capitalize on a tvt, even though he was pushing karnos just a little while ago.
I don't want to lynch karnos either but that seems like a hell of a 180 for town to make. If you're scumreading someone, why would you be so willing to take their word on their role? Unless you already know they're town, of course. And now scum has an easy target for a nk unless we have a jk, thanks largely to Culted's pushing.
VOTE: Culted

[Lemons]

Culted, asking again, why do you suddenly completely trust karnos' word on his role after scumreading him all day?

@Culted's last post
Same question to everyone but in regard to Culted and Charloux's push on BTD.

[Lemons]

What changed your reads so completely since 382?
And why are BTD's 'unnatural thoughts' scum (415), but karnos' are now town(373)?
Your entire read on BTD seems to be based on his wording (439), which is apparently a bad scum indicator for you since you used that for your read on karnos as well (382), and his supposed capitalizing on what 'now we can safely assume was tvt' (464), which, as you've just said, we do not have the luxury of doing.

[Lemons]

Alright. Why are you scumreading him?

[Lemons]

Actual reasons please, not huge blanket statements.

Pedit: I do think it's a bad lynch, and I'll do an iso in a while to find some reasons.

[Lemons]

If you look a little closer you will notice that i got quiet as soon as i posted my "reads", the wagon just strayed away from me after that.

Why did you get quiet after posting your reads then? And why stay quiet once you were no longer the target?

What kind of answer were you expecting here?

Game was slow and I was fishing for any information I could get. That question was not one of my prouder moments.

[Lemons]

Honestly Charloux has been nulltown for me since he started getting more active, which is why my vote is no longer there. Going to iso him later to see if that changes. Reason for my suspicion in 484 was purely because of your interaction with him, since I was scumreading you at the time. And now I need to rethink that too, since you've actually given some decent reasons for your read.
So many isos, so little time.
Still feel like BTD is a mislynch though.

And you started the semantics argument.

[Lemons]

Culted, asking again, why do you suddenly completely trust karnos' word on his role after scumreading him all day?

@Culted's last post
Same question to everyone but in regard to Culted and Charloux's push on BTD.

A guy claims a PR. If nobody CC's, he is confirmed. If there is a CC we debate. There were no CC's therefore he is confirmed. Anything wrong with this thinking?

There are two PRs. Neither knows who the other one is.

[Lemons]

We now have two PR claims. Now is the time for CCs, otherwise karnos and BTD are confirmed town.

[Lemons]

VOTE: darkshadow
That's L-1, rb can hammer when he feels it's time.

Rb, if ds is town, who would be your second pick?

[Lemons]

Culted definitely seems like the most scummy one here, including you. I really think you're the miller at this point. This could all be an act of course, but it feels genuine to me.

[Lemons]

VOTE: Culted
Don't want Culted to hammer ds, and this honestly seems like the better lynch.

[Lemons]

Forgot to say, that's L-1 so be careful with your votes. DS back down to L-2.

[Lemons]

And as for lemons;

And why are BTD's 'unnatural thoughts' scum (415), but karnos' are now town(373)?

This question still doesn't make any sense.

This was meant to point out that your logic regarding karnos was flawed, yet you expected us to lynch BTD based upon the same logic and nothing else.

[Lemons]

At the time it was all the evidence you'd given.
My suspicion of your read on BTD was primarily due to your heal turn directly after karnos' baseless PR claim, which turned out to be false. I still find this pretty sketchy, and in hindsight it looks like you were looking for a way to stop bussing your partner.

[Lemons]

At the time it was all the evidence you'd given.
My suspicion of your read on BTD was primarily due to your heal turn directly after karnos' baseless PR claim, which turned out to be false. I still find this pretty sketchy, and in hindsight it looks like you were looking for a way to stop bussing your partner.

Why was karnos' claim baseless?

We had nothing to go on but his word that he was a PR.

Can do.
UNVOTE: culted

[Lemons]

but how is that different from any other claim?

There wasn't any opportunity for a CC at that point. So Culted's 180 in response to the claim struck me as suspicious.

[Lemons]

I jumped on Culted because I think you are a mislynch. I'm pretty convinced you're the miller at this point, which makes Culted my top pick for scum, and Charloux my second by POI.
As for activity, in your prior game I had a single day to stay active in, plus life stuff has gotten in the way.

[Lemons]

I said POI. Elimination doesn't start with an I. I must be tired. I meant POE.

[Lemons]

Good luck!

[Lemons]

There's no way Dark's play today is scum. He's completely accepted his lynch and is actively trying to help us find the last scum. Even when I gave him an out by supporting another lynch, he dropped the idea instantly when rb told him to, and he's gone back to accepting his lynch.
If this were an act, he'd have to be relying completely on us changing our minds on a sure lynch without any pushing on his part. That's suicide, especially with how rb is leading things. If he were scum he'd be trying to defend himself at least somewhat.
Charloux is hard to read right now. He's been a bit quiet and he's changing his reads a lot. His play in general this game has been mostly town from what I can see. Still, he's less town then Dark is so he'd be my second pick.

[Lemons]

The karnos hammer could have been scum, but it would have been a pretty bad idea if it were. How does it benefit him? Also he's just coming off a game where someone accidentally quickhammered scum, and that did not end well for that person.
I think he is, but I also think that scum would be making some effort to draw people to their side or change minds.

I have, that's true, but my read changed later in day 2 if you recall. Looking back, most of my reasons for scumreading him aren't overly convincing to me.
"Quiet" means infrequent posting.

Harder to read.
Mostly his waffling with myself and Dark. Could be town legitimately trying to work out who is scum, could be scum just trying to throw shade at both of us to ensure an easy lylo. Hard to tell since he hasn't interacted a lot today.

[Lemons]

He's the one who asked about the results in 550 though. Why even bring it up if you plan on hammering?

[Lemons]

Looks to me like he forgot to refresh the page before posting and didn't see rb's vote.
Acting normally is one thing, but encouraging a PR to give their results when everyone else had forgotten about it is another thing entirely. There's no reason for scum to be the first to point that out. If he hadn't, it's likely we wouldn't even be discussing it right now.

[Lemons]

Day ends on the 27th. That's 9 days.

[Lemons]

Culted

[Lemons]

But just to be sure: Charloux why am I obvtown?

More like a townread rather than obvtown. Lack of content i find scummy, being a townleader and making sound arguments.

I've posted quite a bit of content, though.

I think he meant it as "Lack of (content I find scummy)."

[Lemons]

Which makes this confusing.

RE 674
Culted

Charloux, why is Culted your top SR now?

[Lemons]

Agreed, let's get this over with.

VOTE: dark

[Lemons]

Day 2 makes it pretty obvious to me that Culted is scum.

From the start he puts a naked vote on Karnos to distance himself, while leaving the option open of jumping on your wagon, which seemed likely, and would be an easy lynch for scum. Then he spends most of the day tunneling Karnos until he 'claims', at which point he completely shifts focus away from karnos and tries to lead a lynch on BTD or myself. He doesn't once question the claim or ask for a full claim, and even subtly reinforces karnos' PR role with stuff like

I was thinking more that he immediately honed in and GL and karnos duking it out (

which now we can safely assume was tvt

) and it looks rather bad because he went of gl for the soul purpose of more people being apt to take Guilty's side in the argument.

(bolding for emphasis)
Not to mention his argument for BTD being scum in general was pretty flimsy.

Seems like scum's plan going into day 2 was to try to legitimize karnos being a PR without actually claiming, then lynch someone else once everyone trusted him. Or at least that became the plan at some point. Almost worked too.


Charloux, if you are scum, then go ahead and take your win. But I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one.

VOTE: Culted

Up to you now.

[Lemons]

Charloux, scum has enough material at this point to spin things in just about any way they please. If I hadn't voted for him, I'm sure Culted would have had a perfectly convincing argument on why you were scum as well.

I suggest you go back and read through the thread yourself, and see which of us has actually been helping town.
I'm confident you'll come to the right conclusion.

[Lemons]

Not sure how that skull got there.

[Lemons]

Ah, shit. Yeah, I figured rb would convince you sooner or later to vote for me so I took a chance.

Wp Culted. You called me on all my shit. I wanted you dead so badly haha.

[Lemons]

I really messed up with karnos. Got so caught up pushing Culted I accidentally threw my partner under the bus.
Sorry karnos. DX