Micro 670: Death Miller Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[karnos]

Hi friends!

VOTE: BTD6_maker

He knows why.

[karnos]

Seems like rb is trying too hard. Not sure that makes him scum, I have played like that as town when I was bored, but it's the only notable thing about the game so far.

Anyone have thoughts about the unique BASTARD mechanic of this game? IMO, we should just lynch any cop guilty, period. 66% chance of hitting real scum, and if we let a scum escape because they "might be the death miller" we just screwed ourselves out of a win. I'll say it right now: if a cop gets a guilty on me, you lynch me, it's just the correct play.

[karnos]

if youre the death miller letting yourself be lynched is fuckin stupid, you know youre town so any lynch is prefereable to yours
cop should be tryin to townhunt anyway

I brought up setup spec because it's a bastard setup, which means a lot of usual meta strategies are going to fail. Also, I have no strong reads and I want to get discussion going somehow.

You are twisting what I said. I said town should lynch the death miller, I didn't say the death miller should just give up. The death miller doesn't even know if he/she is the death miller, so... yeah there is that.

Your point is kinda stupid besides, like you think caught scum us going to just let themselves get lynched?

[karnos]

also karnos discussin setup play like it matters d1 is kinda lol

I brought up setup spec because it's a bastard setup, which means a lot of usual meta strategies are going to fail. Also, I have no strong reads and I want to get discussion going somehow.

When did i call u out for bringing up setup spec or not having strong reads
i didnt even mention that whyre you defendin against accusations that havent happened yet ;;;;)

Has anyone played with RK before? Does she always post like this? Kinda reminds me of killthestory, but spammier and less rational.

I'm just trying to figure out if she is being scummy, or if this is her typical play.

[karnos]

RK is town

I'll say it right now: if a cop gets a guilty on me, you lynch me, it's just the correct play.

this is a lynchable post, regardless of your alignment this was a bad thing to say

Care to explain your logic? A guilty is 66% likely to be a true scum. You lynch that every fucking time, it's much better odds than anything else in the game.

[karnos]

@lion
Why do you think RK is town?

36 and 40 are pro-town points and inquiries, RK is calling out scummy behavior from karnos.

Care to explain your logic? A guilty is 66% likely to be a true scum. You lynch that every fucking time, it's much better odds than anything else in the game.

it's not about your logic that you posted
it's about what you implied by posting it and the fact that you didn't consider or realize what you were implying when posting it

You mean like how you didn't explain your logic when you posted that my behavior was scummy?

I think I see what you are trying to do, and I don't see any reason for town players to do it.

Time to move past RVS.

VOTE: guiltylion

[karnos]

I'm not sold on scum!karnos but I don't like how his reaction in 52 was to try to peg me for some kind of hypocrisy so I'm trying to get more there if/when he answers my questions

why is 37 a scumpost?

What you did is scummy, but spelling it out rewards scum so I can't do that right now.

Hopefully other posters can put 1 and 1 together to realize you are scum.

[karnos]

@Karnos: Did you put yourself deliberately in 35, or by accident?

Also i'm sorry for rendering rb useless for the time being, didn't know he would react like this. Ok i'm not sorry, it's fun to see him angry <3

It was intended at the time, but perhaps it was a play error. I don't really want to explain further.

[karnos]

I'm also not sure that it really was "intended" by karnos at the time, seeing as he asked me to explain to him why it was bad.

This is scum right here. Read the post in question. Think about my motivations, and why I would say what I said. Yes, there is a reason why I'd say what I said, it should be obvious to anyone who read the game setup.

[karnos]

and you conceded it was a "play error".

Nope. I said it *might* have been a play error. But luckily you revealed your alignment by jumping on as only scum would, so it's a fair trade.

[karnos]

I'll spell it out later, can we just get some more votes on guilty for now?

I'm real curious to see who jumps to his defense.

[karnos]

If you refuse to answer my question in 87, I will treat it as a literal scumclaim

Of course you will. When the time comes I will explain.

[karnos]

This wagon building fast.

GL is playing very anti town. Without going into detail, one big difference between town and scum is such: a town player will look at a reason why an action might be taken by town, while scum players just need to look for a reason why an action might be taken by scum.

The is a perfectly good reason for my plan, I assure you, but the act of explaining it would ruin it.

[karnos]

Ultimately, I'll explain when I'm at L-1 with intent, not before, because I see no reason to ruin things if I don't have to.

[karnos]

if karnos is town he needs to stop trying to play bullshit WIFOM plans and needs to play openly and straighforwardly

So are you asking me to claim on day 1 when I'm not even at L-1?

[karnos]

It's mostly RVS here.

Anyway, I basically looked at Karnos vs. GuiltyLion. I don't have much time at the moment but what I will say is that it is GuiltyLion that looks slightly worse from the interactions.

when do you expect to have some more time?

[karnos]

I'm willing to admit that my vote on karnos may have been a kneejerk reaction to something due to my limited experience. Now that I have more time/less stress, I'm going to reread the thread later and see if my opinions change at all.
I would like to hear about the read on culted as well. Is it only because he disagreed with you about karnos?

you could always redeem yourself by voting for Guilty Lion.

[karnos]

VOTE: Charloux
Someone do me a favor and hammer.

I thought you were reluctant to put someone at L-1 earlier. Why the change of heart? Are you super confident that your vote is on scum?

[karnos]

I kinda think Charloux is town tbh, like can someone who is scumreading the "fake" frustration break down for me why it's fake and not genuine?

karnos is still scum. It's frustrating that he's gonna just post one-liners like 179, ignore everything else going on, and you all are letting him off the hook for it.

Yeah, this is still scum.

My proposal: we lynch guilty lion. If he is town, he should be okay with being lynched because his flip will validate his argument and theoretically town could lynch me in retaliation. Except that won't happen because he is going to flip red.

[karnos]

It would be stupid to lynch a 100% confirmed town first, from my POV. Interesting information may come to light while pushing a wagon on guilty, for example a derail attempt by a partner, or an abrupt change in reads that looks like a bus, etc. I want to be in the game to see that stuff happen, rather than reading from the dead thread

[karnos]

I've been obvtown since my first post of the game tbh

like are you both seriously asking me to just explain why I'm town? What use is that to either of you? How is that a helpful question?

Does anyone know what this means?

On one hand you are saying you are such obvious town it should be obvious from your first post. Then you are acting like it's something that is impossible to explain or show.

Well, which is it? If you can't explain it, I'd say it's not very obvious after-all.

[karnos]

guys I'm so happy to be town, I was scum in my last three micros and being scum is just so exhausting

VOTE: karnos
serious vote, I've made a similar RVS vote as scum before

Ah, and this is your first post, which apparently makes you "obvtown"

FYI, I RVS the player in slot 1. BTD knows this.

You absolutely could find games to prove I do it as scum, no doubt about that, because I do it in virtually every game I play, as town or scum.

[karnos]

Someone awhile back asked me who is scum if GL isn't.

Lemons. This thing of latching onto a bad logic push and then questioning it (but keeping his vote up), followed up by lurking and barely contributing... stinks of scum.

I don't believe both scum would push together so blatantly, but if guilty isn't guilty, my money is on lemons.

[karnos]

Charlohx why are you NOT voting one of your SRs?

This is a good question.

7 days to deadline. We still have enough time.
I ll get my thoughts up later today.

No vote from you either. I think "later today" is already passed (although, India, funny timezone). I haven't played with ArcAngel but this seems like some really lurky play so far. Not calling her scummy just yet, but consider this a nudge to be more active please.

[karnos]

And now I see that a few minutes after my last post, ArcAngel posted in the open games queue, still no promised update here.

Null read starting to look worse.

[karnos]

Also, your next posts are just as bad. "Everything I've done and why it can only come from scum and not town". This is serious misrep. I did not hold you as obvscum or even a moderate to strong scumread. In fact, I held you as nullscum. In that case, why would I be convinced that everything you did can only be from scum and not Town?

I was mostly referring to karnos instead of you in that section. See these quotes from karnos:

and you conceded it was a "play error".

Nope. I said it *might* have been a play error.

But luckily you revealed your alignment by jumping on as only scum would

, so it's a fair trade.

My proposal: we lynch guilty lion. If he is town, he should be okay with being lynched because his flip will validate his argument and theoretically town could lynch me in retaliation.

Except that won't happen because he is going to flip red

.

I do want to know, BTD6 - why aren't you holding these claims up to the same level of scrutiny as you took on my "obvtown" remark? karnos is calling me scum and depending on his alignment he will naturally have different thought patterns as to why he is making that claim. My point is that his statements are more worth diving into, especially given that you're voting me already.

I hate to answer for someone else, but your question is so illogical it demands a response.

My claim that you are scum actually puts me at risk. If I am wrong, and you come up as town somehow, I'll probably get lynched in return. i'm willing to take that risk, obviously, but it's a risk I am taking.

OTOH you are not really taking any risk at all by claiming you are obvtown, as the only way to prove you wrong would be to flip you or investigate you, in which case you are dead anyway. You aren't *really* risking anything by making the claim, because disproving the claim costs you your life in the game anyway.

[karnos]

I'd really rather see a GL lynch today, but I can only blame myself for being low activity the last few days. Holidays really cut into my inet time.

ArcAngel is neither a town read nor one of my top 3 scum picks, but I won't allow the game day to end in a no lynch, consider this

intent to hammer

prior to hitting deadline.

[karnos]

Just noticed the deadlines are only approximate.

@mod can we get an exact deadline time? Is it Tuesday at 5:40pm eastern?

[karnos]

We have 28 more hours till the deadline. Who are your other scumreads apart from GL?

Lemons is #2. Don't feel like revealing the other one just yet, because it's not too strong of a read and I feel pretty confident that least one of GL & LEmons is scum.

[karnos]

ArcAngel has time to post in and run several other games yet is unable to do more than a minimal check in here, that screams scum

I want to agree so much, but this sort of lynch occurred in my last game...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8450132

All the same crap was going on- very little input into the ongoing game, posts in other games, etc.

Yet he flipped town.

A singular occurrence doesn't prove a rule, but since it just happened in one of my last games it gives me pause. I don't want to rush things, but I will hammer before deadline if nobody else beats me to the punch.

Basically it comes down to this- the poor play/lurking behavior could be a sign of scum or town, but the speed at which the wagon formed makes me think it's town and scum are jumping at the chance to lynch a lurker.

And given the assumption that ArcAngel is today's lynch , I'd really at least like to see her give some final reads and a chance to claim.

[karnos]

Intent to hammer in 7 hours. I will probably not be online for deadline. AA, if you got reads now would be the time to share them.

[karnos]

Waited as long as I can, not sure when my son will cooperate and let me play mafia later.

VOTE: ArcAngel9

Flip red, please.

[karnos]

Lemons

Obvious scum killing GL to put more pressure on me.

[karnos]

VOTE: lemons

[karnos]

tl;dr he isn't approaching reads from a mindset of sorting a two mafia game if that makes sense.

Take a look yourself and see if you see what I mean.

Are you saying that you approach the game differently if there are 2 scum, vs a game with 3 scum or 4 scum? I'm not sure I see the point in that. I look for scummy behavior and try to get it lynched. Sometimes you have 4 scummy players in a game with 3 scum, but if you lynch all 4 of them you will probably get the scum so it doesn't matter if the numbers don't line up perfectly.

[karnos]

When a moment comes where a guy like me has the most common sense, it can only mean that town lost.

What do you think of lemons? Am I reading him wrong?

[karnos]

I really am having a stupid holidays. Sorry I'm struggling to be active atm.

I think we all are. I am going to be out most of the day, might be able to check back tonight and comment.

[karnos]

My feeling is that when the game gets like this, it's because scum is perfectly happy with the way the votes are going and they don't feel any need to play actively and try to steer wagons.

In other words: Charloux is probably town. OTOH, we do have over a week until deadline, so scum could just be slow-playing as well, and the holiday is probably a legitimate reason for many players to be absent.

I wanted to see lemons flip because I'm pretty confident the early wagon on me was scum pushed. Since scum were kind enough to flip GL for me that leaves lemons as the next obvious possibility. Then again, I could see scum strategically killing GL, thinking I would push lemons next- which would make lemons town. Maybe I just had a bunch of bad reads on day 1. But... I would expect at least one scum would be willing to push lemons along with me if that thinking is right, maybe the lack of willingness to jump on his wagon is because he *is* scum. Too much WIFOM.

Anyway, gotta get the game moving.

Blatant OMGUS- VOTE: culted Explain your push on me.

[karnos]

culted: maybe I was acting like the universe revolves around my reads because nobody else was posting at the time.

I'm sorry if you think I'm scum because of abandoning a push, but that is how the game works. I can't lynch someone by myself. I still think lemons might be scum, but I know that even if I am right about that, there is another scum out there somewhere, so I am not as concerned as you about moving on.

And for the record, it wasn't even OMGUS, I just said that because I wanted to see what you would say.

[karnos]

We have 28 more hours till the deadline. Who are your other scumreads apart from GL?

Lemons is #2. Don't feel like revealing the other one just yet, because it's not too strong of a read and I feel pretty confident that least one of GL & LEmons is scum.

My other scum read at this point was culted.

RVS vote on RK, followed by a strong push on RK. I see this from scum a lot, since they aren't actually scum hunting they just pick someone to try to lynch, and more often than not it's just whoever they RVSed.

Later, culted switches to Charloux with very little reasoning in 158 - apparently the reason for voting is that Charloux hasn't placed a vote on his scum read.

160 feels like scum adding some plausible deniability in case the wagon does hit a lynch "Tempted to unvote because it feels like genuine frustration but at the same time I don't ever want that in lylo." In other words, culted thinks charloux is town but wants to lynch him anyway.

Yet he doesn't unvote, and then goes VL/A for the rest of the game day. Classic scum strategy- start up a wagon/push, then go afk and when the flip comes up green you blame the player who hammered.

Culted came back to naked vote me in 332, but that was after I was already reading him as scum.

[karnos]

I didn't want to mention him as my 3rd scum read at the time was because he was largely lurking on VL/A, with a little bit of wanting to give him some more rope to hang himself.

[karnos]

BTD6_maker - v/la makes it a pain to read, I hope like hell you get active real fast because this game is just painful
Lemons - currently town but you really need to get involved more
Charloux - that last post, I want to lynch you just for that... that said you are likely scum
culted - I'm liking you a bit more, you are now an even neutral, please keep it up
karnos - SCUM, and nothing you have said has changed that.
rb - Oh wow, please for the love of god drop the awful attempts at humor, you went from a town read to a mild scum read

I admit I haven't been very active myself, this is only my 2nd game and I'm not really sure how to lead a town with no active players...

I also reiterate my intent to vote Charloux but am only holding back to avoid a quick lynch as my vote puts them at L-1

I find it interesting that culted was scum reading your slot all day day 1, and has seemingly turned around completely given your replace. I also find it interesting that you were afraid to put your scum read at L-1. I can sometimes accept that sort of behavior early day 1, when people are recklessly voting in RVS, but the game is freaking stagnant now and there is no reason to hold back voting.

Hell, if you think I am scum and you are afraid to put Charloux at L-1, why didn't you vote me? Again I am reminded of culted, in day 1 he was voting charloux due to throwing shade but not voting... yet that is exactly what you are doing now and he has seemingly completely reversed on his read of your slot. Culted honestly isn't discussing his reads at all, which is another issue, but I am taking his lack of discussion to mean he thinks you are town.

With rb's vote Charloux is now L-1, so you can be off the hook for that now, but I still question why you were so shy to vote someone earlier.

[karnos]

VOTE: BTD6_maker

Okay, you are back. Now participate in the game, please. If you think Charloux or I am scum, please vote. I'd rather see things move forward now even if it means my wagon is going to be growing.

[karnos]

Interesting.

I'm not super concerned, because all my scum reads are already on my wagon. However, I am curious whether you forgot to mention it was L-1, or if you just decided there wasn't a need?

[karnos]

Shit, I lied. Lemons isn't on my wagon, and he might well quick lynch me if I am correct about him being scum. Please unvote before you allow that to happen, I am a town PR, consider this a soft claim.

[karnos]

No. I checked GL.

[karnos]

Charloux is the least scummy of those 3 IMO. Then again, I've been wrong so far this game.

I'd be happy to go back to lemons if anyone else is willing to push that wagon.

Needless to say, if we have a jk please keep me in mind.

[karnos]

I think BTD is a decent choice of lynch today, he hasn't been acting very towny IMO. Prefer to lynch BTD over Charloux. Lemons is also on my bad list, but I think BTD's recent play has proven even worse. Culted is looking better, especially if BTD flips red.

I hate how BTD suddenly came out from being lurky when he had a little pressure, and then vanished for a time after putting my at L-1 without acknowledging. I admit I have done similar in other games on day 1 RVS type situations, but this late into day 2 and the game demands more careful play.

[karnos]

Can't see lemons & culted being scum together after the last exchange.

Need to re-read a bit and see if BTD & lemons is a viable scum team.

[karnos]

Well that actually took no time at all, both lemons and BTD have been relatively low content posters this game.

Lemons pushes to lynch arcangel over BTD when both are being called out for being lurky. Lemons repeatedly mentions BTD's lack of posting but never places a vote or seriously pushes, he always seems to be willing to give BTD more time. Most recently, with a BTD wagon gaining some traction, lemons tries to redirect again to culted.

BTD posts very little during day 1, just an RVS vote and...

It's mostly RVS here.

Still mostly RVS.

We're still at some phase in the game that is at least very similar to RVS, or the next step after it

Followed by chiming in on the GL vs karnos arguments, saying he thinks I am more likely town (but reverses that read after Lion flips green day 2). He also seems willing to lynch Charloux, but then he goes on V/LA before ever moving his vote- seems BTD was content to let the day end in a no lynch if I didn't hammer.

Day 2 he has voted me and now moved to culted. With very little original content. One thing that pinged me is he posted less than an hour after I voted him, but overall seems to be very low activity. To me that indicates he is reading and watching the thread, he just isn't posting unless he feels it absolutely necessary. Or possibly he just got phenomenally lucky and happened to have time to post right after I put some pressure on him.

Of note: absolutely zero mention of lemons in his entire iso. I hate digging through other games but if someone else wants to do the work I'm curious if BTD's scum meta usually ignores his partners like that.

[karnos]

@Karnos: Not sure how deep in the past you should look for meta. I remember BTD faked a guilty on his scumpartner in micro 618. But since you were in the game as well you know that it was ~half a year ago.
In my last scumgame i got caught with the same method you used just now so this case is kinda sticking in my head. Need some time to rethink since i really think Dark is scum rn.

I do remember that game. Sorta. But it was a special case I think.

[karnos]

@BTD: what is your read on lemons?

[karnos]

UNVOTE: BTD

I think BTD is probably scum pulling a gambit, but I want to hear his check and result first. In the off-chance I am wrong, I don't want him getting quick hammered before he can share his results.

I'm gunsmith. That is why I said what I did early day 1- I knew nobody could get a false guilty on me, so if someone claimed one it would be scum revealing themselves, was hoping to get a freebie scum lynch.

[karnos]

Sucks, I was really hoping we had a jailkeeper. I want BTD to be scum because if he is town one of us is going to get killed tonight.

[karnos]

rb

It's got to be rb and BTD. Scum wouldn't out themselves unless it was to save a partner. And "forgot" to use pr at night? Uhhh okay.

[karnos]

VOTE: rb

[karnos]

I guess he might be gambiting town. He needs to take back his claim before scum lynches me.

[karnos]

BTD6 is unfuriatingly lurky and will probably need to be investigated.

Like this. WTF dude. If you were really a cop, rb, why the hell would you say something like this and then skip your investigation?

[karnos]

Funny thing is I still kidna think the other scum is lemons.

Would you go for a lemons lynch today?

Cop claims can be 100% verified by leaving the cops alive for a night and checking results tomorrow.

[karnos]

Not if you lynch your gunsmith today.

[karnos]

This game is semi open, it has two mafia goons, an unaware death miller and two out of {cop, jailkeeper, gunsmith}. Role pm's below.

@MOD: Can you clarify: is it possible for town to draw two of the same role, or is it a max of one of each possible PR?

[karnos]

Oh well, gg rb, I think they bought it.

[karnos]

Good try lemons.

I was hoping to catch more of a break from the death miller. That is, if he/she was lynched first there would be a lot of doubt thrown into the game, but getting lynched after a scum lynch is a give away. Kinda surprised rb didn't turn on me much earlier if he was the gunsmith, I thought I was crumbing it pretty hard.

I should have just lynched charloux when I had the chance instead of going for the long con.

[karnos]

votecount

Charloux (3): Lemons, rb, Darkshadow64540
Karnos (2): culted, BTD6_maker
BTD6_maker (1): karnos

not voting (1): Charloux

6 days remaining

Could just just lynch charloux here. Would have been a pretty big scum tell for me, but in retrospect knowing i was getting lynched that day otherwise it was an error to not hammer.

[karnos]

Yeah, game would have went differently, no guarantee that would have been a scum win either.