Scummies Ideas, Suggestions and Comments Thread

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Post Post #22 (isolation #0) » Thu May 03, 2012 8:48 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I would be okay with something like "Best Single Game Performance" to really highlight someone's roleclaim if they did well, or some kind of "this one awesome event/funny sequence of events" award to make up for it. I do think claiming is too narrow, and if we're going to have an award for claiming, we'd need to take a look at breaking down "good play" into several different minutiae and do a lot of things.
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Post Post #150 (isolation #1) » Wed May 16, 2012 7:35 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Best QTs can be wrapped up into Most Enjoyable Game.
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Post Post #180 (isolation #2) » Thu May 24, 2012 3:45 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

I like TSQ's system. I'm not sure how well it'd work, because why not just have the "Academy" choose the winner outright? They pick nominees/finalists, then who votes on it? It can't be the whole site, because not every user is going to read every game/player nominated and make an informed decision (that's why we have judges). It can't be the "Academy", because then it's basically just a small group deciding everything. I suppose it could be a completely separate group of judges who aren't involved in the balloting process, but that's a really inefficient way to do things.

I think it's a lot of work to ask mods to submit every game. I wouldn't mind doing something similar, though. For example, I recently suggested we break down "judging periods" into every three months instead of biannually. What if, when we did those three month blocks of judging, we got a list of all games run during those three months and PMed all the mods, asking them if they felt any of the players or moments in the game were award-worthy?

We can also make it a habit to post at endgame in completed games and remind people to nominate for the Scummies.

I do think it's a very small subset of people who actually do the nominating and it isn't perfectly representative of the site as a whole.
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Post Post #199 (isolation #3) » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:21 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

KittyMo actually did the MVP voting thing in this game and it added a lot to the game, in my personal opinion. I may try it with my upcoming mini normal.
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Post Post #221 (isolation #4) » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:11 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Wouldn't you know... Fate didn't win Most Enjoyable/Funniest Poster!

Looks like your fears are invalid. SpyreX won it, and I think he's a shining bastion of sportsmanship.
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Post Post #223 (isolation #5) » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:30 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

seriously, point to where there's a need for an award that focuses on "fair and good sportsmanship" over "funniest & most enjoyable"

if someone actually pulls up a situation in which the distinction even MATTERS, let alone is necessary, ill eat a shoe
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Post Post #226 (isolation #6) » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:06 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 224, AGar wrote:Stream or it never happened.

GOOD THING I WON'T HAVE TO NOM IT
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Post Post #228 (isolation #7) » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:59 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

way too soon bro
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Post Post #233 (isolation #8) » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:08 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 229, Oversoul wrote:If there is a need, perhaps the Most Cunning Manipulation award could be changed to something ... less specific sounding and Best Manipulation could become a spiritual successor for Best Role Claim, but only for Mafia.

In short

[mafia only] Most Cunning Manipulation > [mafia only] Paragon of Town Killers
[everyone] Best Role Claim > [mafia only] Best Manipulation (roleclaim, playing habits, etc)

No
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Post Post #253 (isolation #9) » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:19 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

So, let's go ahead and get this out there...

For next year, I nominate we change
Smooth Operator
to
Best Moderator
, an all-around body of work award for a moderator. I think the issue with Smooth Operator is that every year it just becomes "who fucked up the least", and I find myself going, "Well the dedication you had to this game was truly innovative, but you missed deadline by 10 minutes this one game day, so you're ineligible," and I just don't think that's a fair way to recognize great moderation. It doesn't just come from the flavor, or the setup design, or being timely with votecounts, or resolving disputes well, or creating a fun environment for the players, it's a big combination of everything and should be recognized as such.
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Post Post #257 (isolation #10) » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:53 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Perhaps so. Every year I've been a part of judging Smooth Operator, it ends up with people going "this person posted X votecounts, this person posted X-2, so the first person wins" and I don't think that's really fair. Excellent Moderation isn't about posting votecounts on time, but that's usually what it comes down to. When the design team finally gets automated signups & automated votecounts done, Smooth Operator's current role is essentially going to be useless anyway because everything will pretty much be automated.
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Post Post #263 (isolation #11) » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:25 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 260, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 257, xRECKONERx wrote:Perhaps so. Every year I've been a part of judging Smooth Operator, it ends up with people going "this person posted X votecounts, this person posted X-2, so the first person wins" and I don't think that's really fair.

That's... a terrible way to judge that award. I'm not yelling at you, but damn. No wonder you don't like it.

Smooth Operator seems (to me) to be for the person who dealt with the unexpected/unplanned stuff well. We have separate awards for Innovative Roles or Enjoyable Setups, but this is the person who rolls with all the weird, mundane, personal crap that happens during games from other sources. They take it in stride, the game never really suffers any longer than it takes them to come visit the thread, and... yeah. Smooth.

Iunno, maybe I'm crazy.

The issue is that when you have a bunch of nominations and it's like, "well yeah I guess they all dealt with bullshit that came up and didn't make errors resolving night actions" then the only thing to set them apart BECOMES "okay so... who did the best with votecounts/timely day & night starts?" because the criteria we've set kind of necessitates that.
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Post Post #273 (isolation #12) » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:30 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

It's a body of work award.

I also don't think, and this is just personal opinion, that an open moderator who does the same amount of technical work as a theme moderator should ever really win. There's going to be very little difference between a top mod running an open and a top mod running a theme, so the tiebreaker is going to be amount of effort put in, in which case, yes, the theme moderator probably put in more effort overall.

But again, it's body of work. If someone ONLY runs open games, then yes, they didn't do anything for setup design, so it's going to hinder them. I suppose opens can still have flavor though.
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Post Post #281 (isolation #13) » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:55 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 279, animorpherv1 wrote:This might be a bad idea, or I may have missed it, but where did 'Best Mish Mash User' go?

I have a few people I would like to nominate for that.

we run best mish mash game through scummies already. None of the SSC really feels qualified to talk about mish mash games or categories. If you guys want that, come up with a couple of awards and we can write them into the ceremony next year with a separate group to handle nominations and judging
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Post Post #283 (isolation #14) » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:20 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

I was nominated?
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Post Post #285 (isolation #15) » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:22 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

I don't see it..
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Post Post #287 (isolation #16) » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:25 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Well it's not in the nomination thread now unless I'm blind. Who nominated it?
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Post Post #290 (isolation #17) » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:12 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

We'd love to get some suggestions on the nickname for the Community Contributor award!
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Post Post #296 (isolation #18) » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:01 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Other things discussed in the SSC were "Rodney King", "Dan Harmon Award", and "The Barack Hussein Obama Award for Outstanding Excellence in Contribution to the Mafiascum.net Community At Large"
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Post Post #300 (isolation #19) » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:40 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Not really. Community Contributor isn't judged, it's awarded by mith and actually deals with behind the scenes stuff.
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Post Post #304 (isolation #20) » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:29 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Ooh yes I meant name should be in orange
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Post Post #309 (isolation #21) » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:59 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Yeah aren't we specifically recognizing them?
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Post Post #312 (isolation #22) » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:13 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 309, xRECKONERx wrote:Yeah aren't we specifically recognizing them?
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Post Post #338 (isolation #23) » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:09 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I'm against this Best Overall category because I think it's too broad and thus too hard to judge. We have best mafia player, best town player, best third party, best moderator, best setup design, best MD contributor, best community contributor...this new award is basically all of those combined.

Speaking of which, I like Mr. Mafiascum for Community Contributor.
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Post Post #341 (isolation #24) » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:07 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Eh, it feels unnecessary due to how many niche awards exist already. I dislike the idea of adding a GD-based award because what makes good content there is so subjective.
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Post Post #351 (isolation #25) » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:52 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

No cross year games.
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Post Post #363 (isolation #26) » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:04 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Hmm. Most open setups are designed or tweaked by an entire team of people, not to mention the fact there really aren't THAT many open setups being created each year (as opposed to the sheer number of closed setups that are run). I dunno, I guess we can toss the idea around and see where it gets us. Best Setup does tend to go to theme games, so we actually get normal games that are overlooked as well. I'm not sure how to deal with it.
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Post Post #370 (isolation #27) » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:33 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

It's supposed to be, yes, but the writing staff was less than punctual this year. I've been on a writing spree today to try and catch us up, but there's a lot of shit to get written. UT is coming over Saturday and we are gonna try to burn through whatever is left.
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Post Post #375 (isolation #28) » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:58 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Anybody out there feel like pitching in? We've got writers but everybody is lazy and we wanna knock this out. If you're interested, PM me.
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Post Post #378 (isolation #29) » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:20 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Hey everyone, popping in from the SSC to say that we're starting to consider some changes/updates to the Scummies, and wanted to hear from the community about any awards they thought were obsolete, or any areas of the site they felt aren't accurately represented. I'll say that my proposals at the moment are as such:

#1) Merge Best Role + Best Mechanic into a new category, or maybe just call it "Best Mutation" and have it encompass any sort of minutiae of setup design that doesn't take into account the setup as a whole.

#2) Fix Best Setup. At the moment, only themed games are winning it, and I think it's because people look for "innovation" over solid setup design. Opens and Normals should get a shot at winning Best Setup, too, so maybe we change the criteria or how it's judged? Dunno, but I think it needs work.

#3) Make "Most Enjoyable Game" instead be "Game of the Year" and rather than give it an award, setup a Hall of Fame for all previous winners too. Instead of handing out Scummies for it, we just keep an archive of what games best categorized that year in games.

#4) Get rid of Name in Orange and instead make it the "Golden Fedora" lifetime achievement award that is only handed out by mith whenever he feels someone needs it.
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Post Post #380 (isolation #30) » Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:17 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Uhh, themes are the only ones that generally win role or mechanic as is?
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Post Post #381 (isolation #31) » Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:22 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

The issue with Best Role is that "new roles" are generally just spins on older ones and that falls into mechanic/mutation.
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Post Post #400 (isolation #32) » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:48 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Sure. But Name in Orange isn't handed out every year as is.
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Post Post #406 (isolation #33) » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:33 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

But so is the Name in Orange award. It just feels redundant.
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Post Post #415 (isolation #34) » Tue May 21, 2013 6:59 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I have suggested we don't hand out awards for individuals with Most Enjoyable Game, but instead award that game with a Game of the Year title and put it in a Hall of Fame.
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Post Post #423 (isolation #35) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:04 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Yeah that's not really our wheelhouse.
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Post Post #428 (isolation #36) » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:45 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Usually, if an award is given to the hydra, it's given to both players (like last year's Best Role went to Sir Elton Hercules John, but UT & I both received the scummy too).
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Post Post #430 (isolation #37) » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:22 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

im not sure i understand the question
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Post Post #449 (isolation #38) » Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:17 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

We should really not be giving awards to hydras. First off, it's not necessarily a practice that we want to indulge since there's already enough controversy about hydras in general. Second off, a hydra can already be nominated for any of the main awards, why create an award just for hydras? Third off, I think it would create an environment for people to try and hydra in games more just because there's an award for it -- and if it didn't do that, then there wouldn't nearly be enough nominations to justify the award. And finally, hydra play is a very subjective thing -- some hydras sign their posts, some don't, some have multiple people in them, some have split personalities, some speak with one voice, and I don't think trying to quantify those values as better or worse than the others is a good idea.
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Post Post #455 (isolation #39) » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:24 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

NEED WRITERS PLS
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Post Post #459 (isolation #40) » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:42 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

"In practice" meaning from one year of the award being given out, right?

You're saying that every nomination is for someone who is already integrated, but I just don't see it.

Last year, the three "finalists" for the award were Tierce/Tammy/MattP. All of them were very new:

MattP joined at the end of Aug 2011, which would've given him about four months to be considered for the 2012 Scummies. His rise to being prolific happened in 2012, which is why he was considered for 2013. He was less than a year into his stay on the site at the time of his nomination.

Tierce joined even later than MattP (Nov 2011).

Tammy joined even later than Tierce (Jan 2012).

---

I guess I'm not seeing where the problem is, exactly. It's not like DGB got nominated for Rising Star -- last year, the finalists (and winner) were all among a pool of people who would've still been eligible for Best Newbie if it was still an award. As for this year's nominees... as I look through the list of nominees, everyone seems to be from late 2012 or 2013. And even then, I don't think join date is super relevant to this award. It is not just a "Best Newbie" replacement, it can also go to someone who hasn't had great play then suddenly has a breakout year.

If you could be more specific I feel as though I could address your concerns a bit better, but "Basically every nomination for rising star is of a player who has already become integrated thoroughly into the elite" just appears to be flat-out
objectively false
upon my inspection of the nominees list for this year + finalists list for last year.
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Post Post #461 (isolation #41) » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:43 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

elaborate?
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Post Post #466 (isolation #42) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:42 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I'd much rather see Best Role merge in with Best Mechanic/Mutation for real competition. This year, we even considered putting Mind Reader Mafia into Best Role because sometimes the line is very blurred. As zor pointed out, sometimes roles only work when you take into account the mechanic as well. Case in point--last year, with BBmolla's "Vengecop" thing, the cool part about it was the dead having a vote after the cop had a venge-investigate... but it wasn't "technically" part of the role, so it wasn't considered. Best New Role/Mechanic seems a little better just because there would be more competition. But I'm willing to shelf that idea if there's no support for it.

Re: Most Enjoyable Game... the issue is that having judges determine "Hey, how much did these players enjoy this game?" is always a shitty thing to ask them to do and it usually just ends up being a crapshoot. I feel as though some kind of system to determine finalists, such as the types of surveys that zoraster does after his games, then submitting a "top ten" to the community at large for voting, is the way to go. Sure, the 13-20 players in that game could vote for it so they would "win" (although we wouldn't actually give the award out to the players or anything, it'd just be for the game) but right now if a judge is in one of the games then we don't really have any difference in bias (it's just that we're more selective with who can have the bias). And instead of winning "Favorite Game", or any kind of actual Scummie being given out, that game would just be dubbed "Game of the Year 2014" or whatever and put into the history books. Buttons already hates having to give out the favorite game scummie anyway because it's a pain in the ass.
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Post Post #471 (isolation #43) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:02 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Faraday is very against the GOTY idea... we'll have to deliberate further after we get new SSC members, but my compromise was that we change "Most Enjoyable Game" to a more "Best All Around Game" and still have it judged. The popularity contest nature of making it a public vote (and making it susceptible to trolls) is a little hard to get around.

I think quadz was suggesting taking nominations for both then merging them during judging; OS was suggesting taking nominations for one category then splitting them out. To be completely honest, if we're merging a category, I'd rather come up with a new catchall and be done with it (similar to what we did with Best Newbie & Most Improved => Rising Star). My main drive in changes this year is to streamline the process so that we don't have any redundant categories and can have stronger, healthier competition. I'm very pleased with how Rising Star & Kodak Moment have played out... less thrilled about Community Contributor. You'll notice we didn't award it this year because there just wasn't enough need for it.

I think I have a suggestion, though... "Community Contributor" being only social related things might be too narrow. I would say that things like community threads (i.e., PARTY HATS! etc) should be considered for Community Contributor... but also, what if we took some of what Professor Mafia currently does and stuck it there, too? Specifically, the work on the wiki aspect of it. This would allow us to push Professor Mafia into what I actually think it should be... an award for the person who did the best job at
teaching
the game of mafia or imparting knowledge to others. This would allow us to roll the boring and stale (seriously same 2-3 nominees for the past 3+ years) Best IC category into Professor Mafia and have Professor Mafia focus more on teaching, with Community Contributor being more on the grunt work/organizational stuff (I would imagine some stuff like data collection on games would fall into Contributor instead of Prof Mafia).
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Post Post #477 (isolation #44) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:41 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

My proposed changes would see a breakdown something like this:

Player Awards

Paragon of Mafia Hunters:
BoW award for best overall town player for the year

Don Corleone:
BoW award for best overall scum player for the year

Rising Star:
BoW award for the player who had the most prolific rise/breakout year (could be newbie, could be a veteran who went unnoticed until now)

Best Replacement
:
BoW award for the player who has been the most positive contributor in replacing into games

Most Enjoyable Player:
BoW award for the funniest or just the most pleasant player to be around
in game


Best Town:
Single game award for best town group performance in one game

Best Scumteam:
Single game award for best scum group performance in one game

Best Third Party:
Single game award for best third party performance in one game

Kodak Moment:
Most memorable moment from a game (fakeclaim, funny post, hilarious sequence of events, etc)

Moderator Awards

Smooth Operator:
BoW award for best overall moderator for the year

Best Flavor:
Single game thread award for best written flavor

Best Mutation:
This could be a new role, new mechanic, or something in between that you felt really stood out this year and was a great addition to the game of mafia

Best Setup:
Single game award for strong setup design; balance, ingenuity, role interaction, theme integration, etc will all be considered

Site Awards

Professor Mafia:
BoW category awarded to the person who did the most to help teach/explain/theorycraft the game of mafia; this could be a single big MD post, or the sum of all of a person's MD posts for the year, or someone's work as an IC

Community Contributor:
BoW category awarded to the person who made the site a better place to be through their efforts; this can be related to social events such as RadioScum or hosting a meet, but can also relate to actual work done on the forums to improve the overall community experience on the site, IE updating a big section of the wiki, writing an app to do votecounts, engaging in mass data collection efforts & presenting said data

Outstanding Mish Mash Game:
Best game run for the year in the Mish Mash Subforum

Name in Orange:
Only handed out certain years when the reds/admins see a particular user do a lot of unseen work backstage

Game of the Year:
The replacement for Most Enjoyable Game; while enjoy-ability is still a factor, judges will also consider every aspect of the game. How well did the town play? How well did the scum play? Was the setup good? Was it balanced? How timely was the mod with VCs/deadlines? Was the flavor good? How about replacements? This award won't go to anyone in particular but will instead just title that game as "Game of the Year 20__".
Last edited by xRECKONERx on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #478 (isolation #45) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:45 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

I have Best Replacement highlighted because I'm not sure it's even really needed (but I'm fine with it staying).

I feel this set of awards and the descriptors included is broad enough to encompass every aspect of the site, but each category is narrow enough to not be redundant against another category. I also feel the number of Player Awards vs Mod Awards vs Site Awards is a little more appealing, as twice as many player awards over mod awards makes sense when there are where more players than mods. Professor Mafia / Community Contributor cover literally all out of game activity on the site; Mish Mash/NiO aren't even the purview of the SSC; and GotY fixes some of the big problems with Most Enjoyable Game.

Plus, this will give the judges sixteen categories to judge which is manageable. If we go with mine/Faraday's idea of having rolling judging all year for non-BoW categories, then only eight categories will need to be judged at the end of the year which will make the judging process much easier.
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Post Post #493 (isolation #46) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:44 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 482, zoraster wrote:1. Best Setup and/or Mutation - Theme Category
2. Best Setup - Non-Theme Category
dear god no

Like, Best Setup is Best Setup. This year's best setup went to a mini theme but it was a very normal mini theme. Last year it went to a large theme that was crazy. You're basically trying to shoehorn nominations for normal games because BUT NORMAL SETUPS ARE PEOPLE TOO when it's totally up to the people who nominate these games. If there's a standout normal game or open setup that comes down the pipes, then it can be submitted. It's not like we disallow it right now.
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Post Post #494 (isolation #47) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:53 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 492, zoraster wrote:I'll be honest: I don't think a Mini-Normal game should win a scummy for best setup.
I agree with this, though.

Normal games are pretty identical to each other at a glance, and I guarantee if you look at one hard enough you can find another one that has already been run that's exactly the same. This is because normal games only have so much freedom in their design process due to the whitelist/blacklist.

I do, however, want to see more Open Games get nominated for best setup, as I think there are some cool new ideas for open setups that could easily win if they were nominated.

Basically, I expect Best Setup to go to a non-normal game (Open/Theme/Micro)... "Best Mutation", in my new ideal world, would be given to a new role -or- a new mechanic that added a lot to the game. It has nothing to do with Best Setup, actually.
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Post Post #497 (isolation #48) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:48 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

i thought abarat was a large, mb
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Post Post #498 (isolation #49) » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:13 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Hey guys -- the call for SSC members is up! Think about applying if you want to help out!
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Post Post #508 (isolation #50) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:34 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Hey guys, popping back in to bump this thread.

If you guys have any suggestions/ideas, let us know.

I updated the 2013 Scummies page today. We're considering a wiki/records overhaul in the near future, so can you guys point out some things you like/don't like about the Scummies wiki pages, and what kind of stuff you'd like to see implemented?
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Post Post #509 (isolation #51) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:25 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 398, Titus wrote:
New Category Suggestions


Best Town Performance in a Loss
Best Scum Performance in a Loss


Nom: SKOT, Best Performance in Town Loss- Game Ikarga Mafia (Large Theme)


We've had the "Best Losing Cause" idea thrown around several times as a catchall category, but none of our current categories require a win to be considered, so it seems rather pointless.
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Post Post #511 (isolation #52) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:18 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I don't believe so, but there's nothing explicitly barring it from being awarded. I know there have been a couple "losing" performances that have been strongly considered in the judging process.
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Post Post #512 (isolation #53) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:21 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

My issue with Best Town/Scum Performance in a Loss is that it feels way too similar to Best Town Performance. We already have the category that can allow for a losing team to win the Scummie, so it seems weird to create a special category just for losing performances. Should we then change the current ones to Best Winning Performance as Town/Scum? Then it just seems like an "A FOR EFFORT" type award, or like little league where everyone walks home with a trophy.
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Post Post #516 (isolation #54) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:15 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I dislike individual player awards for single games just as a principle. It is very hard to determine which single player had the biggest effect out of a whole team in a single game, since games are RARELY "one guy carries the whole team". That would just invite a ton of single-player nominations from single games, and judging that is pretty difficult. Judging is already an issue for these Scummies and all of our recent changes are towards streamlining the judging process or making categories easier to judge.
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Post Post #518 (isolation #55) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:57 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

I don't feel that having one good game is worthy of an award, though. There's a reason why every
single
person award we have is Body of Work. Everyone has a fluke, or a good game. There's always at least one person who looks good at the end of the game, because someone had to be right or less wrong than everyone else. I'd much rather see mods implement their own "end of game vote" for who the playerlist thought was the MVP or something, because that's pretty cool and rewarding to be recognized like that. But awarding ONE scummy out of the 100+ games that are run on the site each where, where the vast majority of those games are going to have at least one person who stood out as a great performance... sometimes multiple people... that's just silly.

I also, again, don't think a losing cause scummy is necessary because a win isn't required to be considered for an award. I'd be happy to edit the language to point out that much, but I don't particularly see the value in creating an award just for losers. That would make the other awards just for winners by default. Then we start moving across the board, and well, third parties should also be considered if they lose, right? So why not break that one out a little more? And what about scum
teams
instead of single player? We should probably create a win/lose dichotomy in the awards for whole teams as well.

But, I don't think mastin was particularly arguing for a 'losing cause' scummy so much as a 'single player, single game' scummy. It is my personal opinion that such an award is too broad and would encourage too many nominations, bogging down both the SSC's process and the judging process. I mean, just going through my recent games:

999 Mafia: Everyone universally agreed that Gamma carried the town that game, he was the MVP.
Air Combat Mafia: GreyICE saved the town from losing almost by himself, universal agreement.
MS Fantasy Camp 2: UT & Cerulean balled out of control and rolled the town by being universally townread at endgame.

Those are just the most recent three. And I feel like, if I went and read every recently completed game with a good playerbase, there'd be 1-3 people in each of those games who obviously stood out among the town. If, as you said above, having an outstanding game isn't necessarily indicative of skill, then I don't think it's deserving of a Scummie. The game-related Scummies are meant to reward skilled players, not mediocre players who just got lucky one time.
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Post Post #524 (isolation #56) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:25 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 481, wgeurts wrote:
In post 479, xRECKONERx wrote:Eh, my personal feeling is that it should be a solo person award (as that's how it was designed).

It would be cool as a group though, I imagine the idea behind the scummie is just helping make the community better. In this case the wiki is not done by one person so it seems wrong to make it "who can do the best edit", there have been a few people working hard changing a lot so it feels wrong to compare them as they all help in different aspects. Also if a group of people works on something then comes the question "who gets the credit?".

Previously, wiki edits and the like were covered under "Professor Mafia". That portion of the award was rolled into Community Contributor this year, which makes this a gray area.

I've always envisioned the award as a singular award. Things like "Name Should Be In Orange" allow for group wins, but I think this is recognizing a single person. It's also a Body of Work award -- so it's not just this one thing that'll be considered in the judging process, it's EVERYTHING from the whole of 2014. It's very hard to consider a group's Body of Work.
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Post Post #526 (isolation #57) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:01 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Because it's a body of work award. And, for example, in that group, you did setup stuff as well... but then, the judges can't really consider that, because it's a group nomination. So then they'd have to consider you separately anyway. Or, diginova has done a ton of work on the graphics/art/layout for the cards that are being made... but, the others of you didn't, so that'd have to be separated as well.

A group of people can work together, sure. But they would all need to be considered individually, with the group contributions being factored into other individual contributions. It's like our Paragon of Mafia Hunters or Don Corleone award... a hydra can technically be nominated, but then ONLY games played in the hydra will be considered. Conversely, if a solo person is nominated, and they had a few games they played as a hydra, their solo games PLUS the games in the hydra would be considered.

We
just
rolled the wiki portion of Professor Mafia into Community Contributor and changed the Professor Mafia scope. Contributing to the wiki is contributing to the site, there's no need for a separate award.
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Post Post #535 (isolation #58) » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:06 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I feel such an award would diminish the value of our current "big" solo awards.
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Post Post #540 (isolation #59) » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:56 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

i agree w/ plexar
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Post Post #543 (isolation #60) » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:48 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

ya sry i got hacked :'(
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Post Post #551 (isolation #61) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:53 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 548, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
The "Best Town" Award


Disclaimer: I haven't read through 22 pages so if this has already been discussed, please just point me to the specific page where discussion commenced.

I feel that overall, it doesn't make sense as an award category because unlike "Best scumteam," the individual performances of the players in the town matter very little. For instance someone could be having a below-average game and yet the town that they are in wins the award and everyone in it gets a scummy.

This causes:

Devaluation of the scummy: The scummy is a valuable award and a source of pride for the holder and the community. When you award it to a whole group of people without even considering their individual effort, it could lead to undeserving recipients receiving the award. The other recipients of other awards would be on the same level as the "Best Town" category for the purposes of Scummies Invitationals etc. This leads to a lowering of value of what having a scummy means and turns it from something to be earned to something that can be had purely due to the luck of the draw. Also, the choices this year for "Best Town" were very, very limited.

== Counterplan ==

I propose awarding an individual award for best performance in a town victory. This would be distinct from the Best Mafia Catcher award as the latter is a Body-of-Work award while my proposal involves someone who performed best in a town win. It essentially means we have a "Best town" category. And in the category, after the best town win has been selected, the judges then select one person who was most instrumental in the win to be given that award.

Thoughts?

Eh, considering individual effort is something the judges should do when looking at the Best Town category, I feel. And I think this one is too similar to Paragon... though, yes, it is one game versus Body of Work, usually people get nominated for Paragon off of one game anyway.

Judges are free not to hand out an award if they don't feel any of the nominees are deserving.
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Post Post #557 (isolation #62) » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:47 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Best Town definitely needs some work, I think.
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Post Post #570 (isolation #63) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:07 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Winning isn't required to win the award, though.
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Post Post #572 (isolation #64) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:21 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

So we're creating an award specifically for losing when there are no awards specifically for winning?

It's redundant IMO.
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Post Post #577 (isolation #65) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:49 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

3rd Party isn't BoW, zor.
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Post Post #578 (isolation #66) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:50 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

My issue with the "single player, single game" award is that it seems too narrow?

Maybe narrow isn't the word... it just seems like, if someone has a fucking awesome game and goes off, then nominate them for Paragon or Don, instead. The game will be considered. If they're actually good, then it won't just be a fluke, and people will look at that game when considering them for the award. And if it really is just ONE game of awesomeness... well... I feel like even a broken clock is right twice a day, so why is one good game worthy of an award?
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Post Post #581 (isolation #67) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:51 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 512, xRECKONERx wrote:My issue with Best Town/Scum Performance in a Loss is that it feels way too similar to Best Town Performance. We already have the category that can allow for a losing team to win the Scummie, so it seems weird to create a special category just for losing performances. Should we then change the current ones to Best Winning Performance as Town/Scum? Then it just seems like an "A FOR EFFORT" type award, or like little league where everyone walks home with a trophy.

In post 516, xRECKONERx wrote:I dislike individual player awards for single games just as a principle. It is very hard to determine which single player had the biggest effect out of a whole team in a single game, since games are RARELY "one guy carries the whole team". That would just invite a ton of single-player nominations from single games, and judging that is pretty difficult. Judging is already an issue for these Scummies and all of our recent changes are towards streamlining the judging process or making categories easier to judge.

In post 518, xRECKONERx wrote:I don't feel that having one good game is worthy of an award, though. There's a reason why every
single
person award we have is Body of Work. Everyone has a fluke, or a good game. There's always at least one person who looks good at the end of the game, because someone had to be right or less wrong than everyone else. I'd much rather see mods implement their own "end of game vote" for who the playerlist thought was the MVP or something, because that's pretty cool and rewarding to be recognized like that. But awarding ONE scummy out of the 100+ games that are run on the site each where, where the vast majority of those games are going to have at least one person who stood out as a great performance... sometimes multiple people... that's just silly.

I also, again, don't think a losing cause scummy is necessary because a win isn't required to be considered for an award. I'd be happy to edit the language to point out that much, but I don't particularly see the value in creating an award just for losers. That would make the other awards just for winners by default. Then we start moving across the board, and well, third parties should also be considered if they lose, right? So why not break that one out a little more? And what about scum
teams
instead of single player? We should probably create a win/lose dichotomy in the awards for whole teams as well.

But, I don't think mastin was particularly arguing for a 'losing cause' scummy so much as a 'single player, single game' scummy. It is my personal opinion that such an award is too broad and would encourage too many nominations, bogging down both the SSC's process and the judging process. I mean, just going through my recent games:

999 Mafia: Everyone universally agreed that Gamma carried the town that game, he was the MVP.
Air Combat Mafia: GreyICE saved the town from losing almost by himself, universal agreement.
MS Fantasy Camp 2: UT & Cerulean balled out of control and rolled the town by being universally townread at endgame.

Those are just the most recent three. And I feel like, if I went and read every recently completed game with a good playerbase, there'd be 1-3 people in each of those games who obviously stood out among the town. If, as you said above, having an outstanding game isn't necessarily indicative of skill, then I don't think it's deserving of a Scummie. The game-related Scummies are meant to reward skilled players, not mediocre players who just got lucky one time.
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Post Post #582 (isolation #68) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:53 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Here's an idea: what if the Scummies setup post-game surveys (kind of like zoraster used to do for Large Themes) that asked people to rate or rank other players' performances in the game, and leave a field for comments?

Nominations sometimes get overlooked due to people just not thinking about the fact that they could nominate someone for a Scummie. We could do something like "anything with an average score of 3.5 or higher automatically gets a Scummies nomination" or something like that?
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Post Post #591 (isolation #69) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:16 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

It is a SHITLOAD of work so it's something we'd have to consider but it may not be a bad idea. (Or possibly, if we could get listmods to help us out with it, or each mod of the game.)
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Post Post #599 (isolation #70) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:38 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 594, Aeronaut wrote:Couldn't the mod just literally copy-paste a template into the post game and people can fill it out?

If the data isn't received on the backend by the Scummies Committee, then it becomes a game of "hunt down a mod until they give us the data".

Plus, copy/pasting a template still doesn't alleviate the workload of "copy all completed templates/data into a managable spreadsheet or database"
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Post Post #605 (isolation #71) » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:04 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

As many nominations as you want!
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Post Post #609 (isolation #72) » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:27 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I dislike giving 'awards' for entire games... because, why? Who gets it? Players? Mod? Reviewers? Backup mods?

I could see Game of the Year being a list of finalists where each finalist is a different gametype, perhaps.
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Post Post #611 (isolation #73) » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:37 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

*shrug* I just don't see the necessity of needing to recognize one game of each type... like I said, I like the idea of having allocated 'slots' for GOTY finalists that come from each type of game to ensure fair representation.
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Post Post #615 (isolation #74) » Thu May 28, 2015 6:09 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

We just removed "Best Newbie" as a category like two years ago and rolled it into Rising Star, specifically because by the time someone actually won an award, they weren't really a newbie anymore, and the cutoff date just felt arbitrary.

IE, someone could play a game in January of 2015, be nominated for Best Newbie, spend the whole year on the site, win the award in March 2016, and have a banner saying "Best Newbie" when they've already been here a year and two months. And they'd technically have it through March 2017, which would be two years after they joined.
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Post Post #616 (isolation #75) » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:07 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I think the Scummies team should suck less, personally.
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Post Post #633 (isolation #76) » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:45 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 630, wgeurts wrote:I think we should add an award for "best bastard game", currently these games have a pretty darn hard time of winning any awards although they can be some of the most fun and memorable games out there.

I think setting stringent qualifiers for what qualifies as bastard or not is a really bad idea because the only thing we currently officially delineate between is "normal" and "not normal". What makes a game bastard? Where's the line between bastard and role madness? Should we then form a distinction between "role madness" and "theme but not role madness or bastard" as well? What about theme games that are otherwise normal but just have flavor?

Best mutation - This is a possibility but honestly this award is for a part of a game and not a game as a whole like the other two awards

I dunno, I think there's plenty of rolemadness type stuff that has been nominated in the past? And if a bastard game isn't doing anything new or exciting, then like, they shouldn't win this award. This is for new stuff.
Best setup - Though bastard games have a larger chance of winning this than game of the year it's still more likely to go to a well-formed themed game of some sort. For those that say a bastard game is just a bad theme game those that enjoy them would disagree, there's a difference between a bad and good bastard game and certain people enjoy them a lot. There just another type of game.

I don't think bastard games are unqualified to win this award, it's just really hard to do well. If a truly awe-inspiring, stand-out bastard game comes along (like the early Mind Screws) then I think they stand a good chance to win the award. Winning best setup requires a really great grasp on design from the mod -- bastard games SHOULDN'T win that often, because they're a genre that is hard to do in a truly great manner. Creating a category where only bastard games are eligible means we're basically giving them a pity award.
Game of the year - Bastard games will never win this, due to their nature their unbalancedness, wackyness and just general abnormality it's really unlikely they could ever win this award. Town and scum may play well but the insane roles/mechanics also play a large role so that and the balance factor are usually tremendously low.

I think there are plenty of times when a bastard game could win GOTY over a theme game, but again, they're very hard to do well, and if we want a game to represent the best of the best from that year, it's very hard to argue that a bastard game should be the de facto touchstone for all games that year.


I guess really, I just don't like breaking down award categories even further. There's a lot I could dive into here about bastard games and
why
they aren't usually considered to be "great" mafia games (partially because they rarely resemble actual mafia), but really this comes down to an unnecessary stratification of an already stratified award structure. I think the Scummies Steering Committee should be working to cut down even more categories and streamline the process instead of adding in very narrow categories because everyone needs a participation trophy.
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Post Post #646 (isolation #77) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:28 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 640, Firebringer wrote:All mafia awards are subjective as hell...I don't understand reason for taking them out for being "Subjective" lol.

You guys are hilarious.

The main issue isn't necessarily the subjectivity, but that the criteria for the award is too subjective.

For example: whether you prefer a flashy scum gambit or a quiet subtle scum game is up to personal opinion, but there are definitive criteria with which you can judge someone's scum play. Did they successfully manipulate town? Did they save their buddies or strategically bus them? Etc. Compare that to something like "funniest player" -- what's funny? What qualifies as comedic or enjoyable to one person is going to WILDLY differ person to person, and it usually results in people kinda half-assing the judging and shrugging it off, or arguing why cursing is or isn't funny/offensive/etc.
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Post Post #650 (isolation #78) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:20 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 647, Firebringer wrote:I am calling bs.

Heres why:
Theres several things subjective on the manipulation part, did they manipulate due to their role claim in the setup? Did they manipulate because the town were being ridiculously bad? or easily sheeped them? Did they manipulate because of happy coincidences, perhaps clears with actions that shouldn't have cleared them?

Lots of stuff happen in the game. You can have a dumbass town members and you luck out by completely being dominant voice as nobody takes any effort to look through your bs.

So how do these factors go into judgement?
1) Setup
2) Player base
3) Night Actions

Unless every game is same, you have to be subjective and allow much leeway into setup accounting for manipulation. Some setups its easier to manipulate town than others, by design. Player base can't be accounted for that much unless you have same players each and every game, so thats hard to neutralize to be "objective". Night actions can be semi random, if a player has a Innocent on a player they should have a guilty for insance (like a GF), then how does that factor into a game where someone was attempting to manipulate but failed due to a Guilty on them?

First, no reason to call bullshit on anything, we're not trying to deceive anyone.

Second, I think you're misunderstanding what subjectivity means in the context of this thread and these changes, so let's forget that word for a second. Let's talk about historical data and evidence, instead. When observing the judging threads for these awards over the past several years, there's plenty of debate over scum performance/town performance/third party performance. Those debates involve people arguing their case over whether the setup strengthened a performance or hindered it. There's debate about whether the town just rolled over and died, or whether the town put up a good fight and therefore made the scum performance stronger. All the things you took into account here are the same things our judges take into account already. I've seen the judges engage in discussion on these points and have a pretty good handle on the nuances involved. Many times, if the setup is really one-sided and makes it easy for a certain side to win, and that side gets nominated, I've seen judges take a pretty heavy scrutinized look at that player and their performance.

Now, conversely, the discussion around funniest player/most enjoyable player goes something like this:
Person A
: "I find this person to be enjoyable or funny!"
Person B
: "I don't. I find this other person to be more enjoyable or funny."
Person C
: "Well I remember playing with this person, but not that person."

And then everyone stops posting until it's almost deadline and just goes along with whoever has the most votes already. Opinion-based preferences in awards are fine -- that's why we have a judging panel, and not just a spreadsheet with data points to help us decide who did the "best" in that category. But it should be a prerequisite that an award category has enough meat to it in order to be able to actually discuss it at some length, and without any redundancy.




And that's just the enjoyable category, anyway. No other category was removed because it's too "subjective". Best Replacement was removed because it winds up being a data analysis contest of who replaced into the most games (or who replaced into the longest games) and there's not much in the way of activity for that award anymore [this year we had one nominee; last year, two]. Professor Mafia was removed because it felt archaic and no longer relevant to the site (and was also severely undernominated... one nominee this year, two last year that were both fairly subpar). Best Pro-Town Team was removed because it was a bad award that was too broad in scope and ignored the core nature of mafia itself (uninformed majority vs informed minority). Best Scum Group was removed for being redundant with the new Don Corleone. Community Contributor was removed due to lack of competition (award was given to the admin of the site last year, and was not even awarded the previous year) and because the award puts OOC/community contribution under the judgmental microscope which felt wrong.
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Post Post #653 (isolation #79) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:36 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 651, Thestatusquo wrote:its ok. the scummies are just a popularity contest anyway.

I would wager that's not the case, given I've seen the judging happen and have seen less known/popular posters win over big name posters pretty frequently!
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Post Post #656 (isolation #80) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:22 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 655, Untrod Tripod wrote:I've been judging/running things for the past threeish years, and if anything we have been tending to err on the side of discriminating against people for being "big names"
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Post Post #658 (isolation #81) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:02 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

You're not wrong. The workload on judges is massive. Another point of this big change is to cut down on the workload.
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Post Post #662 (isolation #82) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:31 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 659, Firebringer wrote:Why not split the judges up then?
Make more judges in essence

Judges can judge 1-3 categories but not all.
Splits the workload, possibly gives more eyes on the games in question.

That's how we're already doing it.
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Post Post #664 (isolation #83) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:32 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 661, Firebringer wrote:This sounds like the real reason they were taken out tbh.

It's
a
reason, sure. The conversation did not begin with "we need to lighten the workload", but that idea certainly helped make the decision.
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Post Post #668 (isolation #84) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:20 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

We said ONE award was too subjective in the criteria. One.

Things aren't black and white, like you paint it. It's not objective or subjective, no middle ground. There are degrees of subjectivity. The ONE award we said had too much subjectivity in its criteria was (1) backed with data and (2) an outlier.
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Post Post #694 (isolation #85) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:26 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 670, pirate mollie wrote:
In mafia, there's really no "cohesion" among town -- with no information, there's no way for people to reliably "team up".


this statement is such complete and utter bullshit I am not sure why you made it in the first place.

but by all means bring mafia back to the dark ages where town wins by accident. cos that is what that statement is encouraging.

what you are stating is that town are too stupid to find their own teammates and that any effort for self-improvement is futile.

uninformed majority will nearly ALWAYS have a hard time finding each other, that is why they shld be acknowledged when they actually DO.

Not at all what I'm saying or stating at all! You love to put words in people's mouths.

I'm saying that it makes more sense to award a "best team" role to the group that is
actually a team
and behaves as such.

In any game where an "uninformed majority" finds each other and locks in and behaves as a team, there are plenty of people in that uninformed majority who obstruct the process or are not a part of the "voting bloc" or whatever you want to call it. So we either have to give the award to people who objectively do not deserve it, or we can just say, "if there was a single person you felt stood out during that game as a great town player, nominate them". The latter is much easier.
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Post Post #696 (isolation #86) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:38 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Most of the time, if a town pulls off a win in less-than-the-standard-days, then they probably came together at some point.

And if the suggestion that people are going to give less of a shit as town because they can't win an award for it is true, then I'm
glad
we're gutting the Scummies, because playing for recognition/playing to get awarded is pretty much the worst reason to play the game.

We still award town play. We just award very specific town play that is outstanding and that's usually going to be on the backs of a few, rather than many. We also think CONSISTENCY is important for a town play award -- and that's only something attainable across multiple performances.
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Post Post #697 (isolation #87) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:45 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 695, chamber wrote:So, I don't see these changes fundamentally changing the amount of work judges are willing to put in. I could be wrong, we can find out this year. I think just taking a different approach completely is probably better though, like a peoples choice version instead of the oscars.

We removed seven categories and moved one to public choice, bringing us to 9 categories total.

Paragon & Rising Star are still intensive categories to judge, but they're probably the most intensive. We'll probably split judging into groups of three like so:

DifficultyGroup 1Group 2Group 3
Hard
Best Mafia CatcherRising StarBest Flavor Text
Medium
Best Third PartyExcellent ModerationCunning Manipulator
Easy
Kodak MomentBest MutationBest Setup


Each group will have one time intensive/text intensive read through, one very simple award, and something in between. Currently, judges are having to look at 8-9 categories and each of those includes multiple body of work performances to pour through hundreds of pages of text. This SEVERELY narrows the scope of the work.
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Post Post #699 (isolation #88) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:07 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

You say you'd be hard pressed to point to any single town player: that's fine. Not every game has a standout town performance. But BASICALLY every game has people on the town's side who don't pull their weight and in order for the award to have any value, we'd have to exclude people from receiving it and there's no fair/objective way to do that. 2014: Reckoning 3 Invitational. There wasn't really any cohesion. We all argued around each other and wound up obstructing each other's lynches and were only saved thanks to some night play, but there was very little total cohesion. We all won for it anyway.

"Best Town Performance" winds up being an arbitrary act of looking at if a town mislynched or not, and then how difficult the scumteam was to play against. Then the award gets handed out without regard for who sucked up space and didn't deserve it.

We're focusing on rewarding
good town play
. In any game, someone is going to look more right than others in the town. That's why we're choosing to focus on the consistency aspect of the award, which cannot be done in a single game performance.
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Post Post #702 (isolation #89) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:14 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

No, we cannot.

You're missing the FUNDAMENTAL difference in these awards.

I will break down your post piece by piece so you can hopefully better understand where I feel you're not clear:

#1. Teamwork should be a factor in Best Mafia Catcher anyway.

And it has been, in the past. If a player is right but is incapable of getting people to rally around his cause or work with other people, no award. If a player is good at reads but causes a bunch of bullshit and terrible explosions when they enter a game due to their personality, they will not win. Teamwork is just
one
aspect of what makes a great town player. We're not going to specifically reward one aspect of town play, we're rewarding all of it.

#2. Adding/removing Scummies should not devalue teamwork in any way.

The Scummies do not have the power you're ascribing to them, though it would be great. And in fact, if people are
only
incentivized to work together
because they might win an award for it
, then I'd argue the existence of that award is toxic to the site and needs to be removed, anyway. You shouldn't work together as a team because of an award. You should work together as a team
because it's the way to win as town
. (See: removal of Best Replacement and Best IC)

#3. The Scummies are, as any awards are, a bit of an ego stroke.

That's not a negative thing. Winning a Scummie
should
be a boost to your ego. It
should
give you something to be proud of. It will cause people to look at you differently. It'll cause people to hold you to a higher standard. We're awarding very specific people for very specific accomplishments, and that will by and large affect their value/weight/opinion in games moving forward, just like an actor winning an Oscar will usually lead to higher billing in movies in the future.

#4. Town and Mafia alignments are not symmetrical, so the same qualities can't be applied to each award.

What makes a mafia "team" easier to judge is that we get access to their inner thoughts and secret plans. We get to see how they plot and scheme and calculate their moves. We
cannot
do the same thing with town. The game of mafia is not symmetrical, so there is a need to understand the differences between the two and what is award-worthy. When you're awarding scum play, it's on a much smaller scale. People may only pull scum once, and once they blow their gambit/strategy, it's out in the open and cannot be used again. However, town-hunting requires consistency and dedication. In any given game, there will be at least one person who looks more correct than the rest of the town. That's why we need to value
consistency
in town play -- and you gauge consistency by looking at several games over a longer timeline.

Nobody is pretending teamwork cannot exist. It's unfathomable to me that someone would get that from anything that has been said so far.
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Post Post #704 (isolation #90) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:57 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

1. You're incorrect. I've observed judging for years in Scummies. Teamwork and team play is a huge factor in judging outcomes. There's not really a way to argue this. You're just flat out incorrect. I've seen the evidence. You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon. You are just blowing smoke on this.
Cooperation is recognized and appreciated
.

2. Scummies do not promote competition for the award. I don't really think anyone
tries
to be Paragon by going rogue on a town. If they do, they pay the penalty for it. Again: teamwork is a huge factor in town play.

3. You're missing the point here so I'm going to drop this line of conversation.

4. It requires collaboration between a couple people, sure. Or night actions. Or setup. Or whatever. But it
devalues
the idea of getting an award if the first place if half the town doesn't deserve it and just gets it by default. What about people who win the award after replacing in on the last day? Should they be eligible? Should the person who replaced out be eligible? Should someone who got prodded and lurked by eligible? How do you propose we distinguish between all of those things? What you're pushing for is essentially a participation trophy and that's not really what the Scummies are about.
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Post Post #707 (isolation #91) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:15 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Hippy Love wrote:1. mebbe cos there were teamwork categories to judge, which you are trying to eliminate.
In post 704, xRECKONERx wrote:1. You're incorrect. I've observed judging for years in Scummies. Teamwork and team play is a huge factor in judging outcomes. There's not really a way to argue this. You're just flat out incorrect. I've seen the evidence.
You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon.
You are just blowing smoke on this. Cooperation is recognized and appreciated.

In post 704, xRECKONERx wrote:
You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon.
You are just blowing smoke on this. Cooperation is recognized and appreciated.

In post 704, xRECKONERx wrote:
You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon.


Are you willfully ignoring context?
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Post Post #708 (isolation #92) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:19 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

As for the rest: teamwork is promoted because this is mafia and teamwork is a part of mafia. We have "how to play" guides and the like, but I fail to see how it is the Scummies responsibility to promote a specific aspect of townplay. I am not trolling when I tell you
teamwork and cooperation is heavily considered when judging Paragon
. This is a fact. This isn't really up for debate. I'm unsure what you mean by "Donald Trumping the system" -- are you just using political buzzwords or is there actual context behind it?
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Post Post #710 (isolation #93) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:22 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

No, this entire conversation is about that.

You're saying it devalues team play. I'm telling you that is false, because team play is an aspect of good town performance. Should we have an award for "best town night action", "best town case maker", "best town leader", "best town follower", and "best town gambit" as well to cover all bases of town performance?

Still curious what "Donald Trumping" means.
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Post Post #712 (isolation #94) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:34 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 703, pirate mollie wrote:1. you and I know that is not how it works. pple will look at the single player and forget every1 else. how the hell is that even remotely fair. I think some of my best games are where I followed , not lead. mebbe I am craaaazy but I think collective cooperation ought to be recognized and appreciated.

This seems to imply you're talking about a single player award, IE Paragon, and how teamwork should be counted towards town play. This context says you're saying "people will look at the single player who is the loudest and most visible and ignore the quieter players". You're also suggesting nobody considers teamwork when judging.

Hippy Love wrote:1. mebbe cos there were teamwork categories to judge, which you are trying to eliminate.

This, however, suggests people
did
consider teamwork when judging, but only for the teamwork categories, which doesn't match up with what we were discussing previously.
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Post Post #715 (isolation #95) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:46 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 713, pirate mollie wrote:
In post 708, xRECKONERx wrote:As for the rest: teamwork is promoted because this is mafia and teamwork is a part of mafia. We have "how to play" guides and the like, but I fail to see how it is the Scummies responsibility to promote a specific aspect of townplay. I am not trolling when I tell you
teamwork and cooperation is heavily considered when judging Paragon
. This is a fact. This isn't really up for debate. I'm unsure what you mean by "Donald Trumping the system" -- are you just using political buzzwords or is there actual context behind it?


silly me I thought the scummies were about recognition, not promoting an aspect of any type of play.

They are about recognition and they're not about promoting a single aspect of play. That's why specifically focusing on
teamwork
as one aspect of play makes no sense from my perspective, and you have yet to address this. Why is teamwork the one you're so focused on over all the other ones?

okay then. by all means "promote" a single player over anybody else on their team. I bet the enjoyment of games will rise.

Individual awards have existed literally since the inception of the Scummies.

I guess an area where teamwork is promoted on this site doesn't exist huh.

First, still not the Scummies job to explain to people what is good mafia play.
Second, please show me an area on the site where the following are specifically promoted in the way you want teamwork promoted:
  • Good night action selection
  • Casemaking
  • Leading town
  • Following a leader
  • Strategically hiding information
  • Behavioral scumhunting


That's just a few of the things that go into considering who is a great town player.

@ zoraster - plz don't beep boop this convo by looking up how many times certain words are used.

It's very relevant. It shows that nobody really refers to a "town team" like they think of a "scum team". Town is very much individuals playing their own game with the information they have. The fact you cannot know someone's alignment as town without a special power role means "teaming up" is fairly risky and not necessarily advisable. Scum literally know each other's alignments, that's why we allowed a team nomination for mafia play.

I like you and I love reck but neither of you seem to have a pulse on the site

I know townblock voting is a pet strategy of yours, but it's just ONE strategy. I would wager the people who have access to the backstage area and the judging threads and can see the dialogue and know what goes into it probably have a better pulse on what the site values and holds up as pillars of good play, but that's just me.

or understand that what you are promoting is competition amongst town cos pple will want to stroke their ego.

Again: people who go rogue and stroke their ego by working against town and fail to cooperate DO NOT win Paragon and WILL NOT win Paragon under this change. That won't suddenly start happening.

You still haven't defined Donald Trumping, but if I had to guess, it would look something like "spooking people into rallying against a threat that isn't actually a threat using bombastic rhetoric".
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Post Post #717 (isolation #96) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:49 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

If you really believe that, then that's fine. Come back here in a year and show us how awful this decision was for game culture and show me where people started rabidly screaming FUCK TEAMWORK I WANT A SCUMMIE and then we'll adjust. Until then, I'll choose to trust the data and evidence over fear tactics.
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Post Post #720 (isolation #97) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:57 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

@chamber: That would require a lot of subjectivity and ruthlessness in choosing who to cut and who to include, and would result in fights over why someone should or shouldn't be included, which is NOT something we want to encourage.
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Post Post #727 (isolation #98) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:41 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 723, pirate mollie wrote:I feel like team play is pretty integral to how the game is played regardless of alignment. no1 can do it on their own.

team play already considered for town award

next question? or will you continue ignoring every piece of reason thrown at you?
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Post Post #747 (isolation #99) » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:23 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 740, Psyche wrote:i feel like you guys take this too seriously
mafia is a game; the scummies should be fun
it seems like every year something silly about the whole deal is taken away

I'll counter that while the Scummies should be fun, they should actually feel like they matter, and they haven't in recent years.
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Post Post #762 (isolation #100) » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:32 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 760, Nachomamma8 wrote:When a movie wins "Best Picture", people who didn't contribute positively to the creation of the movie can still say that they worked on a "Best Picture" winning movie and it's not a huge deal.

Sure, and that's why we have Game of the Year.
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Post Post #763 (isolation #101) » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:42 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 760, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 636, Scummies wrote:Best Pro-Town Team: Yeeeesh. We tried to find a way to make this one work, but it feels rather wrong. In mafia, there's really no "cohesion" among town -- with no information, there's no way for people to reliably "team up". In theory, this award was a counter balance to the Best Pro-Scum Team award. In practice, this wound up being given to a town team where about 50% of the team (or less) really deserved the award, while everyone else got carried. Having that many banners floating around for what basically amounts to "congratulations on getting a town role PM while X, Y, and Z were your alignment" devalues the Scummies all around, so the award has got to go.

The two significant points seem to be these:

-It's hard for town players to team up; true cohesion between town players rarely exist.
-It's unfair for undeserving players who got carried to win an award, and it's more likely for players who got carried to exist in a "best town".

The first part I absolutely agree with; it's much harder to have good cohesion as town than it is as scum because you can't truly trust one another, but I'd also argue that the cohesion is much more valuable/impressive. It's harder to judge, sure, but there are times when a town team is dragged by one player's excellent play and everyone else just sort of follows, and there are times when the town win is more a result of a group of players using each other as sounding boards, pushing different reads at different times.

But by its nature, working
as a group
is written into scum roles, whereas it's NOT possible to achieve that in every town -- the entire idea of mafia is "a team of informed individuals" versus "a majority of uninformed individuals". Town teams are a collection of individuals, and yes, sometimes they can come together / work together and truly make a cohesive performance, but playing well as town is not something that should be viewed in isolation. I stated elsewhere in this thread that
consistency
is one of the most important factors in town play, so awarding a single game performance is something we want to avoid, and it's something we would have to do if we gave out a town team award.

The second part seems like a weird concern. Yes, there are undeserving players who get the award when they didn't actively contribute to the town win, but not every single town player will contribute to a town win even in an amazing game because that's not how playing town works. When a movie wins "Best Picture", people who didn't contribute positively to the creation of the movie can still say that they worked on a "Best Picture" winning movie and it's not a huge deal. I also think that most people involved in the game knows who deserves the "Best Town Win" banner and who doesn't; the only time I ever saw anyone touting a best town performance they didn't deserve seriously was Metal Sonic.

This isn't winning "best picture", and it doesn't really translate. The Best Picture award is given to the
producers
of the film, not the entire cast and crew, and the
producers
are directly responsible for the film's quality. Someone claiming, "I worked on a Best Picture nominee!" is more similar to someone saying, "I played in a game that had a Best Town nominee!" which is acceptable, as both are functionally meaningless. We're also not really concerned with the people
in the game
knowing who "deserves" it and who doesn't -- the Scummies are a
sitewide
recognition of achievement.

In my previous skimming (didn't read the whole thread, don't have time to finish but wanted to write something within a month), I also noticed an argument that Paragon already rewarded good town cohesion, which I don't think is a very good one because it's recognizing an individual and not a group of players. Yes, great people don't build themselves and blah blah blah, but an individual reward recognizes an individual.

See: argument about consistency. If players come together, great, fantastic -- that's one example of exhibiting one characteristic of good town play. If they carry that across multiple games, they deserve the nomination. If multiple people on those "teams" carry it across multiple games, they all deserve to get nominated
individually
. We cut dead awards to stop giving out participation trophies, and best town team is ACTUALLY LITERALLY giving out participation awards.
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Post Post #767 (isolation #102) » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:03 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 764, SleepyKrew wrote:Now that the Scummies thread no longer has nomination posts, why can't policy discussions take place there?

People still can post support/nominee information there. We're not locking the thread. We're just aggregating information from the spreadsheet/form instead.
In post 765, hiplop wrote:
In post 763, xRECKONERx wrote:as both are functionally meaningless

ur a little off with the meaningless part about working on something that won best picture

I'm not particularly interested in arguing semantics over a metaphor that really broke down the second you apply any scrutiny to it.
In post 766, wgeurts wrote:Let's face it, no matter how many protest nothing will ever change

Things change almost yearly, actually, with the Scummies.
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Post Post #769 (isolation #103) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:34 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Are people just posting in this thread without reading the already EXTENSIVELY laid out points as to why changes were made? If you're going to comment you "don't like" something, explain why you don't agree with the changes and the stated reasoning for the changes.

For what it's worth, ffery, you were removed because it had been a very long time without any activity. This was the year we tried year-round judging, and people were selected and expected to be consistently active.

Here's the timeline from our point of view:

  • We added you in February 2014. You made a welcome post, and that was it.
  • We kept gently nudging/prodding the judges from February until early Summer.
  • You finally posted in early June to let us know it would be a week or two until you could get serious about it.
  • We PMed you about your inactivity about two weeks later to ask what was up, and you said you were busy.
  • After another six weeks without any word in the forums, you posted in early August to tell us it would be another few days before you could dig into it.
  • Exactly one month later, you posted again, asking "how should we start the judging process" that had been ongoing for six months at that point.
  • Two weeks after that, you posted and let everyone know your laptop charger was down and you couldn't judge until you got a new one.
  • One month after that, you posted and started asking questions about whether you should recuse yourself from several categories due to your participation in the games nominated.
  • Six weeks after that, you finally posted an opinion after the other judges had already discussed and decided on a winner


From the span of February 2014 until December 2014, you made a total of 7 posts in the Scummies forums: one welcome post, three posts saying you'd get to it eventually, two posts asking about procedures and policies that had already been discussed and laid out since February (which showed us you weren't bothering to read the threads), and one post with an actual opinion in it that just said "I agree with everyone else".

We needed active judges, and we made several attempts to prod people along and give multiple opportunities for people to get back on board and contribute. When the end of the year came and there was still almost no activity from some people, we cut them loose and brought in a fresh batch of judges to hammer out the awards in crunch time. I am totally sympathetic to real life problems taking over, and the only reason I'm pointing this out is because it feels very disingenuous to say we "removed you without notification or query" when it had been an 11 month cycle of "prod ffery, promises of activity, then nothing".
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Post Post #771 (isolation #104) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:13 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 770, fferyllt wrote:I think encouraging and rewarding cohesive behavior from teams results in better-played games

literally this exact talking point has been gone over and rebuked in this very thread
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Post Post #773 (isolation #105) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:38 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

And you didn't address the rebuttal so how were we to know you read it.
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Post Post #792 (isolation #106) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:42 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 781, chamber wrote:

On the other hand, I think them teaming up to bully nacho and fferlyt is pretty terrible.

What are you talking about
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Post Post #794 (isolation #107) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:45 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 790, Nachomamma8 wrote:I think that the reason "mafia" and "team" are more closely correlated is because mafia get a PM that says: "you are mafia. you are on a team. here are your teammates." whereas town says "you are town. kill bad guys.", but I don't think that doesn't mean that teamwork doesn't exist in town games and isn't an integral or recognizable part of them.

This is the entire point if the changes in a nutshell, thank you. We aren't going to not recognize town play. We aren't going to make this the ego show. We are going to look at teamwork as a prerequisite of good town play. Mafia is designed to played as a team versus individuals and the awards are designed as such.
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Post Post #796 (isolation #108) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:56 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Nacho, do you feel ganged up on and bullied?
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Post Post #798 (isolation #109) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:07 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Okay, just making sure.

I'm on my out the door to see a film right now, but what it boils down to is this, I believe: the people who dislike the removal of "Best Town Team" seem to think that the removal of that award means that townies working together will somehow be devalued or ignored. That is not the case, and if it winds up being the case, we can reassess. Our assertion is that the game of mafia is designed to be a TEAM versus a GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS -- and the distinguishing terminology there is very important. Mafia has actual avenues to work together, plot, scheme, etc. because it's built into the design of the game. Townies can sometimes come together -- but it's just one aspect of what makes a great town performance. We aren't interested in giving awards to people who do not deserve it, and if there
were
a reasonable way to boil down a town list into who deserves the award and who doesn't, we would be happy to do it... but in my limited time thinking on the matter, I can't come up with a single way to achieve that goal without a lot of drama, fighting, hurt feelings, and endless bickering, and I'm not at all interested in fostering that environment.
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Post Post #801 (isolation #110) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:20 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 799, chamber wrote:
In post 796, xRECKONERx wrote:Nacho, do you feel ganged up on and bullied?


You absolutely were and don't pretend for a second that you don't know it. I don't think you were being particularly abusive or abrasive relative to how bad you can be when you really mean it, but you were berating people over expressing their opinion. I know nacho and fferlyt can take it, it doesn't mean they should have to.

Completely incorrect, you're way off base and I'm actually kinda shocked considering how smart I actually think you are?

Nacho, at least, there was no animosity or bullying. Like, not even in a subjective manner from someone who hates my guts. ffery I could see you taking that way, but I don't really see you chastizing her for coming in here and lying about the SSC's actions in a public forum, so what did you expect me to do? I laid out the facts, maybe in a stern manner, but that was pretty much the most appropriate response after what she said.

And yeah, people coming in here and going NO I DON'T LIKE IT without actually engaging in the process is starting to get old, so my responses are getting less in depth and personal and are slowly becoming RTFT.
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Post Post #813 (isolation #111) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:44 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 812, wgeurts wrote:Teamwork shouldn't be the main aspect.

This is part of the reason we're removing the award.

There's no reason to reward one specific aspect of what makes town play good. If we're going to have an award for teamwork, should we also have an award for every other avenue of town play that constitutes good play?
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Post Post #819 (isolation #112) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:22 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 818, wgeurts wrote:Let's then say you have a game where 7 did this, then that team wins instead of the 5 one. The former then wins. It's the best town team so ones filled with lurkers shouldn't win. I'm saying that that the current reason given for removing it doesn't add up.

Speaking of adding up, what you're suggesting is essentially a numbers game variant of selecting the winner.
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Post Post #820 (isolation #113) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:26 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

How should the town of 7 vs the town of 5 be perceived? Should the town of 5 who had stronger individual performances or overcame more obstacles be viewed as better than the town of 7 where it was more of an easy route to the end? What about games with uneven numbers? What about games where night actions decided it versus games where night actions didn't? What about games where it's a large instead of a mini? Should larges win over minis because towns are BIGGER and therefore bigger numbers are more impressive? Should a game with hardcore lurkers but the rest of the town did super well be considered differently than a game where there were no lurkers at all but the town as a whole wasn't quite as cohesive? If so, which one should be viewed in a better light?

The more people you introduce for an award, the more variables that come into play, and the harder it is to judge.
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Post Post #836 (isolation #114) » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:14 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

#1) Best scum team isn't being removed. It's just that Don Corleone is no longer just an individual award.

#2) The idea behind Don Corleone not being Body of Work is sort of a "fool me once" conundrum. If someone gets away with a flawless scum game once, then by all accounts, they shouldn't get away with it again. If someone is consistently killed as town Night 1 due to their prowess as a town player, that's something that can at least partially be quantified. If someone is consistently lynched Day 1 because they're good at playing scum and nobody can trust them... well, that really shouldn't reflect poorly, should it? Great scum play should include some moonshots and "one-in-a-million" gambits. We feel that, unlike town play, scum play necessitates some very unique manuevering which cannot be judged well over the course of a body of work.

#3) The easiest way to delineate between why scum and town have to be treated separately is this: townplay allows for a sort of consistent algorithm or method to discerning scum play. If you get 100 people together and go, "pick scum out in this game", no matter how many people are wrong, at least one is going to be right (statistically). Town play has a lot of guessing involved, and though it's educated guessing, it's still guessing, in the end. EVERY GAME that is played, someone called scum correctly, at some point. It's a very rare outlier for there to be no scum called correctly. Now, with scum play, there's no "algorithm" or "method" -- because the SECOND a scum technique is used for a win, it becomes more dangerous to pull off again. So we felt that scum should be rewarded for pulling off hail mary, shot-in-the-dark plays -- and those can really only reliably occur once in a while, certainly not more than a couple times per year. People felt hamstringed by the "body of work" qualifier to nominate for scum games.

I will say this: we are working, backstage, on actual criteria/rubric sheets for each award in order to make our exact qualifications feel more...robust. I totally understand that right now, it can feel very one-sided. We don't want that. We want to provide the least subjective criteria possible so people fully understand what goes into each award. I feel like, once those rubricks are made available, the conversations here will mostly center around "How can we improve this rubric?" rather than "Why don't we have an award for XXXXXX?". Because I feel like, in the end, we have most of our bases covered.
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Post Post #838 (isolation #115) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:15 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

There's a ton wrong with judging, currently. What people consider to be good play/valuable play as scum/town is really up to the judge itself, and we'd much rather set forth a list of qualities/criteria that we specifically like. Here's what we've been working on for Don Corleone:

Don Corleone

15–20 marks
  • Nominee's faction achieved their win condition despite facing highly competent opponents
  • Nominee received little to no sustained suspicion throughout the game
  • Nominee's success was impressively independent of the use of power roles
  • The nominee's entire faction survived until late in the game
  • The nominee's entire faction demonstrated an impressive level of teamwork and no replacements had to be made

10–15
  • Nominee's faction achieved their win condition against capable opponents
  • Nominee received sustained suspicion from only a small number of players throughout the game
  • Nominee's success did not rely upon usage of power roles beyond what would have been expected from the setup
  • The majority of the nominee's faction survived until late in the game
  • The nominee's faction demonstrated an impressive level of teamwork or only a small number of replacements had to be made


5–10
  • Nominee's faction were unlucky not to achieve their win condition, or achieved it only against poor opponents
  • Nominee received sustained suspicion from about half the players throughout the game
  • Nominee was aided in their win by the use of power roles, but not more than capable day play
  • More than one member of the nominee's faction survived until late in the game
  • The nominee's faction demonstrated an above-average level of teamwork but several replacements may have had to be made

0–5
  • Nominee's faction did not come particularly close to achieving their win condition
  • Nominee received sustained suspicion from a majority of players throughout the game
  • The actions of power roles were absolutely crucial to the nominee's win, more than capable day play
  • Only one member of the nominee's faction survived for any significant portion of the game
  • Teamwork amongst the nominee's faction was mediocre, or disrupted by a high quantity of replacements


Obviously, these aren't final, and are very much still a work in progress.
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Post Post #852 (isolation #116) » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:54 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 839, Davsto wrote:But I feel that, when rewarding a single player, if say all of their scum teammates die within the first few days and then they make it through a load of days singlehandedly, there should be some bonus points for that, because that can be really tough, and I don't see it being fully fair to reward a single player in part on the strength of their teammates.

it's a good thing to factor in when judging these. and winning it singlehandedly vs winning it with a team won't likely make a large difference unless we're comparing apples to oranges; in which case, this would probably not matter at all in the rubric

In post 843, Davsto wrote:I'm not sure how fair it is to judge someone's play as scum based on the town they faced up against, because that's just dumb luck. If someone plays amazingly but they happen to only be against okay players, is it really fair to dock points?

if two people are similar in play and one had a harder road to get there, then yes, it's fair to use that as a qualifier.

While I agree that "not getting any suspicion" is good for scum, "having lots of suspicion but still avoiding being lynched" is something I'd consider to be something worth rewarding as it requires a different, strong amount of skill.

if someone is under an intense amount of SUSTAINED SUSPICION then they're not doing a very good job of being scum. the idea behind this is "hey uh being scum requires a certain amount of not being obvious otherwise youre going to get lynched OR town was super dumb and you shouldve been lynched"

This almost feels like punishing someone for using their power role greatly. Sure, day play is skilful, but the way it's worded like this does not sound good. Skilled use of power roles is a very important part of the game, and a rule like this sounds like it will basically instantly reduce the chances of you winning an award if the game you played in was role madness. If you mean "they would have been lynched but someone got an incorrect innocent result on them because godfather", fine. If you mean "the use of power roles was very good and played a big part in their victory as well as their very good day play", I strongly disagree with that being considered worse in any way.

power role being a part of their play is important, we consider it for every award. this means that if you luck out and skirt by because power roles happened to fall your way, or town got a false guilty, or town offed one of their own who happened to be your chief detractor, etc. it's going to negatively impact your judgement

Mostly no objections here, although I feel this gives a slight disadvantage of winning if the game only had nighttalk and not daytalk, a factor which vastly affects teamwork.

no it doesn't

... okay this is just ridiculous. Again, I don't feel a single nominee should be judged based on their teammates, but in terms of replacing out? Are you kidding me? Like, wow. You may end up punishing a player because one of their teammates is a lurked or a player who bends a rule too far and gets forced replaced - a whole number of factors contribute to replacements, and I guarantee they are out of a team member's control!

Replacements being made, again, is only there for high levels of awards. it would factor into WHO won the award from that team probably. but again, in the end, if it was down to two very close, very admirable performances... and one person had the advantage of having their teammate-under-fire replace out and absolve themselves of a potentially game-ending situation, then it's going to play into the judging process

this is also worth noting that this rubric was mostly written in response to the old don corleone and will require further tweaking to fit the new one
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Post Post #863 (isolation #117) » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:13 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

jesus christ yall have too much free time
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Post Post #877 (isolation #118) » Sun May 08, 2016 1:22 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

*points back to the five hundred times I've repeated why it's harder/less valuable to judge an entire town's performance versus a collaborated scum effort*

even when several members of the town sync, it's not a planned/coordinated effort. it's individual players coming together.
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Post Post #879 (isolation #119) » Sun May 08, 2016 1:54 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 877, xRECKONERx wrote:even when several members of the town sync, it's not a planned/coordinated effort. it's individual players coming together.
.
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Post Post #883 (isolation #120) » Mon May 09, 2016 6:00 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

because we want awards to have consistency? because why not create awards for each individual unicorn moment that is unlikely to happen?
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Post Post #886 (isolation #121) » Fri May 20, 2016 2:46 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

yep
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Post Post #896 (isolation #122) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:20 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 888, RadiantCowbells wrote:Then why leave the town one intact, especially when town play is probably harder to judge as well?
because you can get a good picture of someone's town play as good town play rarely changes between games, whereas scum tactics will be WILDLY different game-to-game depending on team makeup, etc

I would say town play is more proactive and scum is more reactive, so it's harder to get a consistent picture of scum play when it's totally depending upon what else is happening in the game at the time
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Post Post #899 (isolation #123) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:00 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

I think Kodak Moment can encapsulate funny things as well as serious things. I don't think we need a second category for it. At least, there's been no demonstrated need for further stratification.
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Post Post #907 (isolation #124) » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:05 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 905, Realeo wrote:Here's the thing. I skimmed the last 3 pages and I realized that xxReckonerxx failed to agree on a common jurying criteria with RC.

If that's the case, instead of trying to unify all judges under one common jurying criteria, why don't let each judge have their own criteria?

2 months before final 3 nomination, judges define their judging criteria and we let the public challenge their criteria. If public finds his judging criteria faulty, the public can secretly WotC the judge. The Wotced judge will still be asked for their contribution but secretly discarded.

Award nominations ala Eurovision contest. 3 nominations with the most points are the final 3 nominations.

To find the champion, employs Instant Runoff Voting system. IRV by its nature tries to accommodates most jury.
We're not going to publicize the judging criteria unless it's a uniform system. Each judge basically has their own right now, and that subjectivity is like 90% of the problem. We're going to try to unify it or provide something more concrete so people know exactly what goes into an award.
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Post Post #908 (isolation #125) » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:06 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Also, Scummies participation is already minimal overall. What you're suggesting is an undertaking that would likely oversaturate the process and cause less overall involvement. People can take time to nominate, judges can sign up to judge, but people aren't going to take time to read every possible nomination and make an informed decision.
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Post Post #915 (isolation #126) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:06 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 914, Realeo wrote:The best thing about my idea is that everyone is independent. The failed two party system is out of the window.
what
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Post Post #916 (isolation #127) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:06 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

we're not goign to make judge selection a public process considering we mostly accept everyone who applies
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Post Post #917 (isolation #128) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:08 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

like everything you are proposing is a way more complicated process for something that isn't broken. the one thing not fucked up about the Scummies is how we accept judges
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Post Post #926 (isolation #129) » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:29 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 923, mastina wrote:
In post 920, BBmolla wrote:If the point of the scummies is to give light to great play, I think adding a 2nd and 3rd in each category would shed light on more plays and help with circumstances where judges are really torn between two great examples and have to choose one.
Possible compromise:
Years ago, they used to list all of the nominees for an award.
Now, they only list the winner.

In the reward ceremony, we could go BACK to listing all the nominees. That's an absolute zero effort thing (it should literally just be a copy-past thing guys), but it allows for a second spotlight beyond the original nomination, so to speak: "these were the others who were considered", and with that extra mention, those people/situations/games might get a higher level of exposure.
My goal and backstage agenda was to push for a "finalists" list to be published one month before the ceremony to build hype. Basically take all the nominees and pare it down to 4-5 finalists for each award, then only have the judges need to judge those 4-5 finalists. It'd be more Oscar-like and would build hype and recognize other finalists who were close to winning.
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Post Post #928 (isolation #130) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:00 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

because then you have a group of 4-5 people picking through a player list and handing out awards to very specific people which will result in more drama than you even can imagine

the amount of butthurt people complaining they should've been involved in that award/win and the quote walling that would happen for/against that kind of shit would be ridiculous

it's not worth the effort
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Post Post #931 (isolation #131) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:29 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Lemme tell you how judging best town went down.

It was just a statistics fest. Judges went "Well, these towns had mislynches, so they're out. These towns didn't doc protect correctly, so they're out. These towns didn't vig correctly, so they're out." It was mathematical process of elimination that had no place in an awards system like this. And the reason it was like that is because best town group is a silly award and so people judged it the best way they knew how. It's gone for a good reason, not to mention the billion other reasons like rewarding shitty town play with an award.
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Post Post #973 (isolation #132) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:16 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 962, mastina wrote:
In post 960, Psyche wrote:aren't the judging criteria already public?
Not really.

The judging criteria were posted by xRECKONERx...once. In this thread.
The criteria are in that one spot publicly only.

And even there. Reck kept it pretty generalized. He didn't go into many specifics. He was as broad as possible while having it still be giving criteria. He listed what the criteria are--not what the criteria mean to the judges.
Basically, posting the literal law without the accompanying interpretation of it.
No, the criteria is basically what it says in the description for each award post.
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Post Post #974 (isolation #133) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:19 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

For what it's worth, the reason we keep things private is to prevent anyone from feeling like they can't speak their mind.

Many moons ago, my first year judging, I told one of my best friends on the site who was nominated for an award that they weren't going to win it before results were announced. I didn't really list reasons or anything, but it caused a huge backlash, and it even made me want to reconsider my vote.

Simply put, judges have the job of critiquing people's play. And if we want them to be objective, we need security that nobody will get hurt over what is said. Trust me: it's harder than it looks to maintain that objectivity. Even being backstage on SSC, there were a few times I saw myself being talked about for certain categories and it took everything within me not to jump and defend myself.

If we made the judging process public, here's what would happen:
- Who won the award wouldn't change
- Instead, the people who lost would find things to nitpick with the judges who didn't vote them

It's a bad fucking idea.
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Post Post #975 (isolation #134) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:20 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Make the process public, people aren't honest because they may fear social blowback. Then we definitely get a popularity contest.
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Post Post #1012 (isolation #135) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:59 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1010, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 1009, zoraster wrote:I'm not trying to be cagey or anything. What I described is pretty much exactly what happens. Whether an award is added, changed or removed is entirely based on what the SSC values.
That came out wrong. When I want to know how something works, I want to know exactly how it works. I could figure out that a group of people talk about what to do with the awards on my own. I wanted to know the details into what exactly is considered when the group is talking about things and I can only guess. That said, I understand that it prolly is not imperative that I know that and I respect you enough to know when I feel like I am wasting your time.
each award has a description
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Post Post #1034 (isolation #136) » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:42 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Why do you think we need that when we literally had a hydra win the best scum player award this year
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Post Post #1036 (isolation #137) » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:13 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

i dont see how it's any different. awarding hydra play separately is basically saying that hydras do not occupy the same slot as a single player and that is literally an argument to just shut down hydras entirely
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Post Post #1043 (isolation #138) » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:00 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1039, LicketyQuickety wrote:My idea does 2 things:

Prevents Hydras from being able to be nominated for an otherwise single player accomplishment.
Gives Hydras a place for an award.

Secondly, if Hydras are so hated, why do we even allow them on this site?
1) why is it bad for hydras to be able to be nominated for a single player award?
2) hydras already have a place for an award, it's called the current awards
3) hydras are supposed to function as a single player slot. if they are NOT functioning as a single player spot then they are throwing off game balance.
4) because there's a subset of users who like them but we've been down this road many times before and i dont think the arguments are gonna get rehashed here again
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Post Post #1044 (isolation #139) » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:02 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

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Post Post #1045 (isolation #140) » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:09 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

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Post Post #1084 (isolation #141) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:11 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

hmmm i think it becomes hard to attribute a moment to one specific person though??? like wouldn't the baby moment technically just be all 3 mods plus dan for killing the baby? idk
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Post Post #1088 (isolation #142) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:24 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1085, zoraster wrote:On the one hand, that walks us closer to be disproportionate to the actual activity that social games represent. On the other, Kodak Moment for social games seems a very appropriate award. In many ways a better award than best player does.
Yeah, I agree... I think the "best overall person in mish mash" award might be kinda meh in comparison to best moment?
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Post Post #1096 (isolation #143) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:51 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

i meant more in the context of "it is hard to attribute something like game design to just the players when the mods put it there in the first place" so why dont we pump the fucking brakes on calling out lies
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Post Post #1102 (isolation #144) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:59 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Kodak Moment exists because we used to have an award for funniest player, an award for best fakeclaim, etc. And this was the combo of that because the other one felt too subjective.

mastin the entire context to my comment was about adding a kodak moment for LARGE SOCIAL GAMES not mafia games, those work incredibly differently from everything else.
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Post Post #1105 (isolation #145) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:13 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1103, Cerberus v666 wrote:How is increasing the scope of an award a way to limit how subjective it is?

Why is subjectivity even a concern? There's a large degree of subjectivity to all of the awards.
Because it's one thing to say "hey which of these is most memorable"
it's another thing to say "hey guys what is funniest" because humor is completely different person to person.

And the best role claim award was very underutilized and inactive and nobody really paid attention to it so it got rolled up as well
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Post Post #1112 (isolation #146) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:31 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1106, Pine wrote:
In post 1090, Creature wrote:Still think there should be a Best Town Performance award (just nominate who has actually influenced town).

Seriously, I'm seeing good town performances (mini 1869) being nominated for Kodak Moment.
Didn't we have a Best Performance in a Losing Cause award at one point? That's something I'd love to see make a return, several Town players in Camn's Revenge (mini 1869) would be worthy of a nomination.
this never existed
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Post Post #1113 (isolation #147) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:32 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Also Paragon doesn't require someone to win to get it
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Post Post #1116 (isolation #148) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:37 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Losing Cause was phased out almost immediately because it was redundant.
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Post Post #1117 (isolation #149) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:37 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

"never existed on my time on site" or "never existed in the past 8 years" maybe would've been better to say but i think it's irrelevant to what Pine was saying
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Post Post #1119 (isolation #150) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:03 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Plenty of BoW winners have won from games where they lost despite impressive play. Same with third party.

Someone not winning is not the same thing as it being excluded.

It's not a prerequisite. Losers can win awards too. None of the awards require winning.
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Post Post #1128 (isolation #151) » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:34 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1122, Realeo wrote:I think single-game Town award has been discussed before. It was shafted because the award is no longer awarding good game but simply statistics (ie. They mislynch 1 town. Bad play).

I don't think BoW scum has been discussed here?
yes it has

it was scrapped partially because scumplay is sneaky by design and once you pull off some kind of big move / bluff / gambit / etc you lose the ability to do that as easily in the future. and scum is just all about surviving, so it makes it harder.

with town if you're drawing NKs early because you're so good at the game, then that's kinda a point in your favor. so you can more easily run a BoW analysis on town play across multiple games.
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Post Post #1129 (isolation #152) » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:34 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

we haven't given a best IC award in a couple years.
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Post Post #1130 (isolation #153) » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:35 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

btw im not on the SSC anymore so this is just me voicing my opinion
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Post Post #1148 (isolation #154) » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:36 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

I'm not on it anymore.
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Post Post #1151 (isolation #155) » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:37 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

i stepped down willingly yo
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Post Post #1155 (isolation #156) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:39 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

u just want me to run so you can run against me and beat me
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Post Post #1163 (isolation #157) » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:47 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

lmfao
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Post Post #1168 (isolation #158) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:20 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I think two is reasonable.
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Post Post #1171 (isolation #159) » Mon May 01, 2017 3:24 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

scum performance?
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Post Post #1189 (isolation #160) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:01 am

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not on the SSC anymore but i think that would probably fall under the Name Should be in orange award thing that mith/zor/whoever can hand out due to someone's help behind the scenes
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Post Post #1192 (isolation #161) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:44 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

i could see that "behind the scenes" award changed to something where the admin team gets together and talks and awards a contributor award to someone
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Post Post #1194 (isolation #162) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:49 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

they know who reviews the games when it's required by the queue and they LITERALLY run the NRG so

wrong af
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Post Post #1196 (isolation #163) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:43 pm

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i guess i also dont see why we're giving out scummies for something that should be done as a favor to the community
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Post Post #1197 (isolation #164) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:44 pm

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it's like part of the reason why Best IC went away
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Post Post #1220 (isolation #165) » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:50 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1217, Nachomamma8 wrote:If you're interested in writing then you can talk to me.
If you're interested in judging then I'd recommend talking to Zor/UT/Reck.
I haven't been involved in Scummies for a year bruh
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Post Post #1230 (isolation #166) » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:33 pm

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In post 1226, Psyche wrote:think md discussion has advanced enough lately to justify returning the professor mafia scummie
I dunno what happened to it but there was a Best IC/Prof Mafia category that was a combination of both that I'd support coming back
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Post Post #1232 (isolation #167) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:17 pm

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Sure they are. They're both about providing a level of input on theory/playstyle/rules/etc to try and better the community and make people better players.

IMO, what an IC does is a subset of the things Prof Mafia could do

Also, historically, we had best IC for a while. Then like 1-2 people got nominated each year. So it was merged with Prof Mafia to try and broaden the pool. I'm not sure why Prof Mafia was removed but I would wager it's because there still weren't many nominations
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Post Post #1234 (isolation #168) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:45 pm

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who had the most positive impact on the mafia side of the site
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Post Post #1235 (isolation #169) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:46 pm

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there's also the idea of "being an IC is just something a ton of people do so how do you go through that and judge the best one"

i look at someone like Thor who goes and dedicates his whole year to teaching newbies how to play as a bigger impact than say one MD most from mastina
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Post Post #1236 (isolation #170) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 pm

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In post 499, Scummies wrote: The
Best IC Player
category is being rolled into
Professor Mafia
, and the definition for the award is changing. The change for this award was two-fold. Number one, we saw a dearth of nominees and competition in the Best IC category and realized it was mostly the same one or two players being nominated every year. We didn't want the award to get stale, as we felt putting in time to help people learn to play the game was valuable and should be rewarded. But... number two, Professor Mafia was already a role that, in essence, rewarded people for contributing to the mafia community by helping people learn or understand the game better! With Professor Mafia being a Body of Work award anyway, we think allowing contributions as an IC in a newbie game to be considered in the judging process will allow for a wider array of nominees and keep the judging for the category away from being a contest of "Whose one-off theory thread was bigger this year?"
In addition
, we are stripping the following from the "Professor Mafia" award:
  • Best Contribution to Mafia Discussion/The wiki
    -> Best Teacher & Contributor to Mafia Discussion
  • Contribution to the wiki will no longer be considered for the award
  • Judges will focus on body of work more than a single individual thread or post
yeah so this was 4 years ago Prof Mafia/Best IC merged
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Post Post #1248 (isolation #171) » Sun May 20, 2018 3:57 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

You're a tree
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