Mini 1868 - Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Medea the Alien]

Hi guys
~f

(In all seriousness; I don't think we'll be signing our posts but given we are literally a married couple; you can safely assume posts are made with both of us agreeing upon things)

[Medea the Alien]

It's obvious you know Nacho, that doesn't mean I buy the appeal. Me consulting with him later is a given.

-Prism

:looks at list of games they've played together: :obvious:

And I know I haven't played in a while, but WTF is with no lynching and mass claiming being bandied about as good ideas this early? Town points for AJ for not buying in.

Gamma Emerald, why would you want to throw in RQS at this point? Are you dissatisfied with the discourse in progress? What was your thought process that mass claiming would be useful?

--PA (I sign, nyeh)

[Medea the Alien]

Ignoring RQS.

What suggestions have you made that you think are worth discussing, Tammy? I read you tossing out a lot of frankly not so great ideas and eventually rejecting them, rightly so. Given that this was advertised as the open setup it is, I find it weird that anyone wouldn't have done some cursory thinking about the perils of the town:scum ratio, so why go weird about it now that the game has started?

So yes, read your posts, end result wasn't anything I felt like picking further at. I'd read more into it, but I know you do tend to write things out a bit so whatever. It doesn't tell me anything about your alignment.

I think our best bet is to just play and convince the vigilante to stay put if we mislynch D1.

Okay, so on the playing side of that, you said you have high expectations of this player list. How's that working out from your perspective so far?

--PA

Pedit: I would assume the vig wouldn't shoot night one if it was likely to put us in near-certain LyLo the next day. That...is kind of obvious? Waiting to see more interactions from you, as you going a bit down a rabbit hole isn't alignment indicative to me. And I asked Gamma why RQS, not why mass claim.

[Medea the Alien]

Not penguin so I'm skipping all the Tammy questions, unless some of them were directed at me. I imagine it does change things that Tammy's posts were made form the point of view of all investigative roles being one-shots. That WOULD be desperate times.

But no, i have a more important thing to blather on about:

2. The Gunsmith has the traditional Mafiascum ability of checking for guns (based on role, not flavor) but also has the ability to hand out a gun once to a player, turning them into a Daytime Vigilante.

Town 1-Shot Vigilante (x1)

^See this shit? This shit means we can lose on day fucking two. Not night two. You thought this setup was swingy before? It fucking BLOWS now. Both "extra" kills should be completely off the table during the first cycle; and IMO off the table unless there's LITERALLY confirmed scum.

[Medea the Alien]

Not penguin so I'm skipping all the Tammy questions, unless some of them were directed at me. I imagine it does change things that Tammy's posts were made form the point of view of all investigative roles being one-shots. That WOULD be desperate times.

What does it change?

The only thing it changes in my mind is that if we make it to day three we might not be in terrible shape, but that was also before it was pointed out that gunsmith's actually can give false positives. So, yay we have a cop we can't trust and a gunsmith we could use results to mislynch with. Woo.

Whether or not they're one-shot, we can still lose the game on day two.

(And yeah, I had that melt down privately about the day vig was just gonna shut up about the sky is falling bit.)

There's things in this setup I'd speak more about; but on the off chance scum don't see what I see, I'll leave it until it's relevant or needed. I will say that Penguin and I ran through various scenarios and breaking methods in the shower earlier. None of them play positively when there's so few opportunities for safe error.

[Medea the Alien]

Still Cabd.

I'm letting Penguin live her own mafia life; Tammy. It's not my place to get in between you and her; and I have no designs on yelling at you; and turning this thread into a slag heap of emotions. You won't have to worry about our slot for long anyways.

I don't think scum has daytalk (KBW is very oldschool from a brief mod meta flipthru); Persivul gets town points for noticing the crossover though. It is possible that the thread was open during the confirmation stage; so theory less likely but not impossible.

[Medea the Alien]

Catching up from page three, but wanted to post this thought so it doesn't get lost (in the likely incoming wall): Tammy asked me if I had any ideas on what to do in this setup. One thought (that Cabd says hasn't been brought up) is that at the start of each non-Day One phase, every player starts their posts with a fake cop and gunsmith result, like so:

Results:
Cop: Keybladewielder: not guilty
Gunsmith: Neo: has a gun (or two) (or dozen)

This means that if those roles die later on (post-Day Two), we know what their investigative results are from beyond the grave. Also might be useful for dealing with scum counterclaims, as they have members to burn on that stuff. That's how I would suggest taking advantage of the heavy investigative mechanic.

(Hadn't thought about it specifically before Tammy's challenge, so feel free to punch holes in this suggestion, but if people like the idea we should decide to do so before the end of this day phase so we're not stumbling around leaving the investigatives exposed on Day Two.)

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

...that's the succinct name for it. :blowing off the rust:

Right, everyone would need to buy in and mix up the claimed results in terms of [not] guilty and [does not] have a gun so any real results don't stick out like a sore thumb. I guess the big issue is if scum can narrow down the actual PRs from this, but everyone is going to have minimum of one 'guess'/random result, so unless we get way unlucky and there are only a couple accurate results in the pool...

Other issue I'm seeing is if the scum get lucky and roll the dice on using a roleblock shot and hit an investigative, but that assumes they use a shot early on and leave that PR in a pickle. But given the 9:4 set-up we might just need to take some chances.

Alternative to all of that is to wait until Day Three and post two days' worth of results at a time, giving more wiggle room to the investigatives. Of course the doom and gloom outlook says we might have lost by then, so.

I don't think hypo-guilties are bad, but it's been a while and I might be overlooking something? As long as they aren't treated as legit until a flip.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

So things that catch my eye:

I don't have an answer for you right now but I probably will during the middle of Day 2.

You can't have an opinion until later? No idea if people are behaving as expected or not, and no anticipation of noticing anything until the next day phase despite extolling the list of players?

Where was my scum motivation for reacting to the setup the way I did though?

This is circular. You clearly don't think scum would ever go into a tizzy about a swingy set-up where town would, so doing so gives scum-you town cred from your POV, which makes it irrelevant to the rest of us. Or it's also your genuine town reaction...and gdi I don't even care any more. This is why reading you early is kind of pointless to me.

My reason for scumreading Tammy was wrong.

VOTE: BBMolla

Don't like BBmolla's defense of Tammy in #128. Next vote would probably be Medea or someone with only one post. I haven't slept in nearly 48 hours so I'll tackle page 5 in the morning.

You don't like BBMolla's defense of the person you're no longer scumreading? Can you elaborate? (Prism-head, I assume?)

Right and I would expect no less from you guys, but that doesn't explain Penguin's entrance and reaction or lack of direct interaction with me. If you guys had been discussing it, I'd expect some comment along that way, not why are you guys suggesting this nonsense. Sot then Penguin's entrance just looks like posturing and if you'd discussed it well then it should have been different.

JFC, apparently we have to act and think and discuss exactly what you imagine we would be doing when you imagine it happening for it to be legit. True report: after signing up we didn't talk about this game. It's my first week back at work and my stamina's shot to hell; last week I'd get to about 10 AM and be looking for a place to take a nap. My energy went to getting through the day and making sure we were ready for the next one, not advance study for this game. And as far as direct interaction with you goes, if you'd said anything I found interesting maybe I would have.* Or maybe not. Sorting you is hard enough for me without doing it in front of you to have any deviations from "Tammy is the towniest town who ever towned" be a reason for you to get all upset. So no, I didn't have any interest in calming you down or telling you personally to chill. I was more interested in trying to find some avenue of scum hunting, especially since I don't know some of this player list at all.

*to clarify because I know this sounds mean, my takeaway from your posts up to that point were that the game setup was nuts and here are some nutsy things we could do in response, but maybe not. I had nothing further to say there beyond that those suggestions were not likely and quite premature when there's a day phase's worth of scum hunting to do without getting offtrack with pessimism.

***

Elsewhere, to anyone, does Lil Uzi Vert generally post super short, almost solely reactive posts? Because so far I'm seeing someone who doesn't want to make any waves, or even ripples.

**

I do feel, having ISO'd LUV, that his posts might have not been the best posts but there has been nothing scummy about him.

UNVOTE:

This sure as hell stood out. Your initial vote was post #13 of the game and was presumably RVS, as you didn't say anything beyond a greeting therein. This laborious unvote doesn't give any read beyond null and doesn't pursue any other ideas. Since the ISO that follows doesn't do anything else I'm side-eying Indigo pretty hard right now.

And I know I haven't played in a while, but WTF is with no lynching and mass claiming being bandied about as good ideas this early? Town points for AJ for not buying in.

Have you and Cabd not discussed massclaiming/no lynching as a possibility so far? This is an unconventional setup, and sometimes unconventional setups require a little unconventional playing.
Why does AJ get townpoints for sticking to Mafiascum approved theory?

We talked about it a bit that night and didn't see any compelling reason to go with it in all likelihood or make it an option this early in the day. I could see if we got to the end of the day and there somehow weren't any wagons people felt good about to get a majority that it might be less disastrous than usual to no-lynch, but that doesn't give any flip-based perspectives for any investigatives while putting on a display for scum of who's likely to be dangerous. The pages of discussion on it still make me want to bash heads together, but yes, I did think about how such choices might play out. I had plenty of time to do so while reading the two pages of talk about it. Said pages lead to...

Gamma Emerald, why would you want to throw in RQS at this point? Are you dissatisfied with the discourse in progress? What was your thought process that mass claiming would be useful?

Okay, so on the playing side of that, you said you have high expectations of this player list. How's that working out from your perspective so far?

Both of these questions seem a little weak to me, but as I'm writing this I realize how long it's been since you've actually played a game so am probably being overly harsh on your entrance. Hi Penguin! It's good to see you again![/quote]

: cries forever at overly harsh Nacho : They were weak questions. There wasn't much substance to dig into yet as most of the posting was RVS and set-up discussion, so I was trying to get discussion from people who had done anything else.

Penguin's post makes it look like they didn't talk about the setup period (I don't think that she'd dismiss no lynches and massclaiming if they'd discussed the setup as scum), which means that outright dismissing no lynches and massclaiming without thinking about things or asking Cabd about it all does seem kind of strange. I think her opening posts seem kind of stilted but I am also trying to be mindful of this being her first game back in a while and give her a little space to shake that rust off but that still stands out to me.

If you want the exact sequence, Cabd saw the sign-up thread, said he wanted to play and asked me to hydra. I looked at the setup and said yes, since we knew what we'd be getting into with the open part. Went 'wow, that's special' but figured WTH, my sense of self is way less tied up in mafia games than it used to be, so if it's a clusterfuck so be it. He told me when the thread was open, I posted a couple times, we talked more about the setup while getting ready to go out and agreed with my initial reaction that no-lynching and massclaiming weren't good ideas, considered if there were any obvious things to suggest in-thread be done with the set-up, decided no (that changed for me tonight with floating hypo claiming). Went out and didn't think about it again until tonight.

And I won't break if you call out anything you see as dumb or scummy on my part.

At the partway point of this slow readthrough I'll admit that I can see an option for massclaiming today. I think it stands a really good chance of going completely wrong, but in taking the time to write out how the worst case scenario would go down all the way to the first LyLo (of three potential if we keep picking right!) and who would likely be left alive, it's not something I think would be fun, but assuming a couple decent reads to work from in the resultant claimed VT pool, it might work out. I think looking at that and without running the scenario a Day Two massclaim discussion would be infinitely better with some results to report at the end of it, as some lucky investigating could make it fait accompli.

Posting this and then continuing my read, maybe look at a D2 worst case mass claim scenario too.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Not only does Cabd's post imply that they did in fact read the setup and think about it. Well imply is a bad word, he said they discussed it in the shower, so. But Penguin's second post implies that as well. She said this:

"Given that this was advertised as the open setup it is, I find it weird that anyone wouldn't have done some cursory thinking about the perils of the town:scum ratio, so why go weird about it now that the game has started?"

So yeah.

Also I was kinda expecting Cabd to tell me to get my head out of my ass if they were town and I was jumping on something I shouldn't. But I could be wrong about that I guess.

As I said in my previous wallpost, the 'perils' I meant were 'notice they hey! there's an abnormally large scum team here!' not 'here's how we break it' immediately.

And Cabd has learned to let me tilt at my own windmills at least once before butting in.

I thought that implied more that she thought about the setup a little bit, not that they talked about it together. If they didn't talk about it at that point, I find Penguin dismissing no lynch/massclaim ideas immediately to be pretty weird. If they did, then I can see Cabd being (mistakenly) confident about them both being bad moves and I can see Penguin as town trusting him on that. Does that make sense?

I hate no lynch on principle, especially since we wouldn't be no lynching and mass claiming at the same time, which leaves the investigatives absolutely nothing to go on. Massclaim I was mostly thinking about where we'd end up in terms of PRs. And...redoing the worst case scenario it's actually four LyLos to survive. Or maybe the first one was too. Regardless, it's a gamble. Looking at Day Two massclaim gets pretty messy if we don't have definitive investigative results (as in results that aren't the false positive/negative types for each role). I think my initial stance holds.

The "going down a rabbit hole" thing I thought she was referring to you thinking through about the bad ideas and then talking your way out of them which is problematic because of how immediately dismissive it was but that was something I already touched on. As far as implying that your opening was suspicious, I'm not sure that's what she was getting at. Her "I'd read more into it, but" could also be referring to her going after you for things in the past that aren't really scumtells for you; was waiting for her to clarify that when she came into the thread next.

"going down a rabbit hole" meant that at the end of the day she'd basically come full circle and hadn't come out in support of said ideas. There wasn't any indication to me that this was something she'd thought about beyond throwing the idea out there. No 'I've looked at what happens if we no lynch and I think there's this good outcome' or 'massclaiming lets us get 'x' investigations off and narrows the lynch pool by 'y' amount'. My "I'd read more into it, but" means that the overall posting style and content wasn't anything that gives me a read for Tammy given prior games. Memory's hazy, but I'm pretty sure I remember games where she's been enthusiastically towny and turned out to be scum. No, not tracking them down, it would be over a year ago and I don't have that kind of time/inclination. So more that I'm not buying the whole post set as a towntell given it's Tammy.

I don't think she's ever gone after me in the past? Anyway I'd like for her to respond to the questions I had before trying to interpret anything more. I think she was posturing through those first two posts regardless.

My worry right now is that you're paying lip service to understanding my scum read there, but offering enough outs so that you don't have to scumread them yourself.

Nope, never have. Even when I've thought you were scummy I've never wanted to get into it, since when I was last playing town-you tended to get NK'd pretty quickly and other times one of us still didn't live long enough for it to matter.

I'll go through your ISO once I finish this and pick out the questions I haven't answered.

I don't think she's ever gone after me in the past?

One cookie, one scum.

?

I've still got to talk to Nacho about LUV but for now I'm moving our vote to Medea. So far this looks less the LUV I was scum with a few months ago.

Can you elaborate a bit? Because nothing from his entrance on has felt town to me.

Read as superfluous or lazy to me. Meaningful answers are unlikely to come from either. That said, now having energy and not feeling like walking death, there's more to their posts. I think the "Aj townpoints" are more alignment indicative on their part.

Here's what you posted before and after my posts (three before, next one following):

I haven't bothered trying to break the setup as the vig/gunsmith introduce so much uncertainty, if nobody else wants to try I can later.

VOTE: Tammy

Don't like the opening posts. I'll review your games later to see if this is a me problem but those opening appeals read horrifically.

I've been awake for well over 30 hours and will be in transit for another 7, so you'll have to deal with Nacho for now. He gets to pick the icon, too.

-Prism

Rereading it's not quite as bad as I thought but I'll keep it.

-Prism

It's obvious you know Nacho, that doesn't mean I buy the appeal. Me consulting with him later is a given.

-Prism

My reason for scumreading Tammy was wrong.

VOTE: BBMolla

Don't like BBmolla's defense of Tammy in #128. Next vote would probably be Medea or someone with only one post. I haven't slept in nearly 48 hours so I'll tackle page 5 in the morning.

I'm not quite buying that I'm horrendously lazy here. Grasping at straws, yes; but what better questions do you think I should have been asking? Because you weren't asking any.

And my initial thought (coming back around to that after running the mass claim worst case scenarios) was that the speculative discussion thus far was ultimately pointless; I do tend to think scum would be quite happy to let town get bogged down in that, so yes, I thought it was towny for AJ not to feed that bugaboo.

*Side question* Fate, the AJ I remember is never particularly verbose or stirring the pot; is there something in his posts that makes this scum-AJ to you versus town-AJ?

Scum tends to find the town a lot easier than the town do, and it pinged me because it was done in a way that stifled a discussion that in my opinion was fruitful. Now, there's votes I like better, explained above.

The answer to the question I also asked about your BBMolla read. Seems a bit weak to me, especially since discussion didn't seem very stifled, and it's a slippery slope of 'has good reads, must be scum' especially this early on when it's a read on the player who almost certainly has the highest post count.

I ISOed LUV because of some comments on his posts, so i thought that i would try to see their point of view. People can push whoever they want, if i have a solid read on them (its early D1 so i dont have much reads) then i will chime in but im not going to hard defend someone unless i feel strongly about the person's alignment.

What comments on his posts stood out to you in particular? Do you feel like the people who made those comments were justified or reaching?

Posts 41 89 171 are good content that is not scummy imo. The rest of his posts are either slight fluff or observations/NAI interactions. I think the people that are scumreading him, say he is scummy, or suspecting him are reaching at this point in time. LUV has 16 posts so far and it would take a lot of imagination to make those posts out to be anything that is AI/scummy.

It's a lot to see anything towny in them too. Even the ones you linked were pretty straightfoward and not controversial.

Fate's 235 might be my favorite damn post so far just for having multiple reads/lines of interest clearly stated. (yes, I get the irony as I ramble on)

AJ is town, my apologies. I see Nacho is in Reflektor

Going to need to explain this one. Flipping reads after a revelation that I should try harder is one of my trademark scum moves. I see nothing overtly town in his posts.

shadonra is making blatantly scummy posts and I don't really want to go that route just yet either. Empking is leaning town at the moment

Shadonra has made exactly one post. Empking on the other hand got caught with a case of the biased by LUV.

VOTE: Fate

Probably going to switch back to Medea later but this deserves more attention.

-Prism

I'm confused by your thought process here. You're voting the person who's on board with your top scum read? See, I tend to think people who need to overexplain their read changes (cough, Indigo, cough) are scummier than casual mind changes. And you think Empking looks scummy through all that? I think it's a bit of a case of naked votes in general aren't great, nitpicking whose is worse is kind of pointless, since naked votes don't do much to stimulate discussion or persuade other people to lynch the scummy scum you just brilliantly found. It lacks conviction and passion, thumbs down.

VOTE: Indigo

Unvoting in 154 reads as way too momentous a conclusion for what it's coming from, 190 says not to expect any engagement until they feel safe, 212 is making town-mountains out of bumps in the road, and 249 is 'hi, I'll do whatever keeps me blending in, thanks.' Happy to lynch here.

[Medea the Alien]

Tammy, it's late and I'm tired. If, after reading my posts, you want me to go through and double check I addressed all your comments/questions to me, as I'm sure I missed some, I'll do that tomorrow (likely evening). Please let me know.

--PA (above is PA too, obv.)

[Medea the Alien]

Now that i am finally done scrolling for a year to get past, frankly, unreadable walls of Medea text i can post what i wanted to.

Let me make it easier for you:

VOTE: Indigo

Unvoting in 154 reads as way too momentous a conclusion for what it's coming from, 190 says not to expect any engagement until they feel safe, 212 is making town-mountains out of bumps in the road, and 249 is 'hi, I'll do whatever keeps me blending in, thanks.' Happy to lynch here.

I'm assuming, incidentally, that your V/LA is more along the lines of LA than V, given that the mod is OK with it.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Indigo is pretty townie in tone as well.

I strongly disagree with this. What exactly in their tone sounds towny? They sound about as disengaged as is possible.

I don't like the look of Indigo - justifies their actions a bit too thoroughly, but I don't think I'm interested in it right now. They do the weird thing too consistently and it might be meta for them.

I'm reading this as you think Indigo is scummy, but don't find it interesting, and it may not be scummy for them anyways? Why no interest in coming down on one side or the other?

Why do you feel my naked vote isn't starting discussion? You haven't asked why I'm voting for Shadonra and you don't seem to care why. If you wanted a discussion about it so badly, you would've asked me why I'm scum reading him.

Thoughts on shadonra post-entrance?

indigo vote is pretty good

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Indigo

He announced a 7-day VLA. What do you hope to accomplish with a wagon?

What's your read on Indigo at this point? Forgetting the V/LA issue, do you see town motivation in their posts? Even if they're not here, it's no reason to ignore them.

The Fate wagon just feels cold and weird. Not sure if scummy but it leaves m icy cold.

If we were to play 'find the scum on Fate's wagon' who would be your pick(s)?

Fate - Aj the Epic,

BBMolla

, randomidget, Reflektor (L-3)

Plus Persivul (BBMolla has since moved to Indigo, for reference).

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Spoiler: Going through Tammy's posts to check for unaddressed questions

Have you read my posts Penguin?

Yup!

Actually it's weird that you didn't address my suggestion directly. Is there a reason you're avoiding interacting with me?

Your interaction with me is still not sitting right. Why are you being antagonistic and kinda putting me down. You're reminding me of the last time I suspected someone and they wrote a whole thing about how I wasn't playing well enough in an attempt to make me feel shitty and ignore they were being scummy as shit like you are.

Because I find the overall tenor of 'set-up is so swingy/unbalanced/scary' to be a waste of time and demoralizing, because I'd expect you to take five minutes and think suggestions through before posting, and I expect more interesting observations from you mixed in with the emotional stuff.

How in the seven hells do you not have any idea what my alignment is?

Because I'm not scum so I don't have a master alignment list?

Seriously, a) even if reading you was one of my top priorities I don't have enough content on seeing you interact with most of the player list, b) I usually put off reading you as I explained earlier because the question resolves itself eventually and risks lots of emotional reaction in the meantime, c) while I may be missing some magic nuances, the posting you've done thus far is pretty alignment-neutral from my perspective.

The question is why ask gamma why he suggested the mass claim, when it should be abundantly obvious. He literally said he thought it might break the game. How is that not clear?

My intention was to inquire as to how he thought it would break the game. I didn't see anything immediate to indicate such a thing was possible, so it wasn't abundantly clear to me. It's like saying 'we should colonize Mars!' and then expecting to be treated as a savant for the suggestion while having zero followthrough. I'm allowed to ask what kind of spaceships we should be building and what suggests the vistas on Mars are any better than the ones here.

Oh so Penguin, since you have done some thinking about the perils of the scum:town ratio, what are your thoughts on it? Do you think there is anything we can do? You know since you've thought about it and all.

To summarize my thoughts so far from elsewhere and a couple minor thoughts since, hypoclaiming is an option. Day One massclaim is unlikely to be helpful. As Empking (I think?) said, cop should claim if they get a guilty, but I'm trusting that said PR will determine that. My top choice for massclaiming would be for the gunsmith to decide when it makes most sense, since post-mass claim they'd have the most useful results/ability to get results. Perils of the scum:town ratio mostly just mean lynching correctly today sets the tone more than usual. For scum, they really don't want to give us a crack into their block, or at least I'd treat it more like a perilous house of cards.

Gamma Emerald, why would you want to throw in RQS at this point? Are you dissatisfied with the discourse in progress?

What was your thought process that mass claiming would be useful?

--PA (I sign, nyeh)

I forgot about the mass claiming question next to the egregiousness of trying to dump us back in RQS and making Day One even more annoying. My bad.

Bleh I wish I were a normal person who had all the questions right when I read a post and not act like those kernels that pop minutes after the poppers been turned off.

If you thought it was weird that I got weird about [the setup] when the game started, wouldn't that have been enough of something for you to poke at? Why didn't you ask that before I pointed out that you hadn't interacted with me directly? Even if all I was doing was posting nonsense and nothing to poke at further, wouldn't that be the thing? Because if you thought it was weird that should have been pointed out. (On the off chance you are town and this really does read weird to you, ask your other head how often I read the setup or rules before a game starts.)

Also if you thought about the perils of the ratio, and since I was going on about it, why didn't you offer up any of your thoughts? Why did you act like you didn't know the impetus of why we were throwing out such bad ideas.

Also squared why did you ask that question of LUV in this post instead of your first one. Did you reread the game and that stuck out to you the second time?

Weird =/= scummy per se. Just alien to my mindset. And I didn't want to prolong the topic (ha!) and didn't think I needed to get super-bossy about telling you what to post/not post about. I can have opinions on it, but your reaction to those opinions is yours. At the time I didn't have anything novel to say about those ideas aside from 'no,' which seemed to be where the discussion was heading.

Yup, posted once, had more time, reread again to see if there was anything else worth poking at in the slightest, figured I'd see what kind of engagement I got. Lil Uzi Vert gave me a bad gut feeling from the greeting post, but I prefer to let that kind of gut read percolate, gather more information.

Not penguin so I'm skipping all the Tammy questions, unless some of them were directed at me. I imagine it does change things that Tammy's posts were made form the point of view of all investigative roles being one-shots. That WOULD be desperate times.

What does it change?

So then obviously definitely not on the mass claiming day one

Not the head it was directed at, but off the top of my head it seems you even said it gave you a definite opinion on not massclaiming super early where you'd thought it might be an option before? Which might suggest it make you reevaluate why people (namely, me) might be so disinclined to entertain the idea in the first place?

*****

I think that's everything you directed to me; later stuff where you were discussing me with Nacho I think I addressed a bit in earlier posts. Let me know if you want me to elaborate, and I'll look for follow-up questions.

And hey! since you're reading this, how do you feel about Fate, as he's the other person who thinks your case on me/us merits a vote? What about Lil Uzi Vert who's agreeing with Fate (and presumably you) but not voting for us?

[Medea the Alien]

Well hopefully the vig knows to shoot random.

VOTE: Medea

You haven't really addressed any of the issues I had with your slot.

I am biased in my read on Indigo because I like the color. If he's V/lA for a week its really not a pressing issue anyway.

Weren't you voting Persivul before? We agree that read. Why are you no longer interested in pursuing him?

Since your issues with my slot are centered on that you don't think I'm scumhunting/I'm not engaging/I'm playing it safe, it seems pretty useless for me to devolve into an 'am too, are not' discussion. If there's something you want my opinion on I'll discuss, but otherwise I'm fine pursuing my own lines of inquiry with your watchful gaze over my shoulder.

And nope, first vote placed was on Indigo where it's stayed. Cabd doesn't RVS, and I didn't feel like it.

--PA

P-edit:

Mod, everything before his comment at the end of the post came from my quote; it breaks the quote box partway through the wall.

[Medea the Alien]

Fate: I don't have a stronger scum read I feel like voting right now. I'm scum reading Lil Uzi Vert, but it's too gut for me to be ready to vote there. I'll move our vote if I feel like there's someone I want lynched more, but I'm also assuming Indigo will be back in here to some extent even if not oodles.

I'm really annoyed that Tammy replaced out after taking the effort to address her questions/comments. And for the record, Tammy (not that it matters now), that was meant as an indication that I wasn't blowing you off. Since you didn't post in the 36 hours after I did initially, I didn't know how specifically you wanted stuff answered.

On the plus side yeah, fine, I'm town reading the slot now, seeing as if she pulled this shit as scum I'd be incredibly disappointed.

I'm too pissed to deal with this further tonight and I need sleep. Other head is likely home sick from work tomorrow and can entertain you all then.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

LMAO penguin guessed you were gonna vote us like.. five or six posts before you did.

Being VLA or replacing out does not absolve one of one's posts; if so I wouldn't be begrudgingly townreading the tammy slot , grey. Which parts of the case on us form others that are your townreads to you agree with specifically?

[Medea the Alien]

BTW grey is scum who looks for reasons to justify the vote later, not town who looks for reasons to decide where to vote. It was obviously building up to hop on our wagon several posts ago during the past page.

[Medea the Alien]

Over 100 posts and nothing happened with BBmola or the gamestate in general, it was best to temporarily move on.

Do you think the same of the lack of traction on this slot?

[Medea the Alien]

Since we're talking about town players acting as scum: That would be the vig shooting if we mislynch today, period. Same for the gunsmith giving a gun, period.

[Medea the Alien]

Hey mod! When day vig shoots (from GS?), how does day vig shoots? Does they post in this thread like

Shoot: Donald Drumpf

Or secretly from PM?

(I'm using orange italic. I'm not impersonating mod since mod is orange bold =D)

I nearly missed this post. As it states in the rules, please use bolded text to get my attention.

Day vig will send me a message in pm.

Does a shot in this manner end the game's day?

BTW because of this handing out a gun and allowing anyone to shoot in secret is inherently antitown.

[Medea the Alien]

Hey mod! When day vig shoots (from GS?), how does day vig shoots? Does they post in this thread like

Shoot: Donald Drumpf

Or secretly from PM?

(I'm using orange italic. I'm not impersonating mod since mod is orange bold =D)

I nearly missed this post. As it states in the rules, please use bolded text to get my attention.

Day vig will send me a message in pm.

Does a shot in this manner end the game's day?

BTW because of this handing out a gun and allowing anyone to shoot in secret is inherently antitown.

Yes. It does.

K so this setup has gone form "inheritly scumsided" to "lol wtf free mafia win unless town is gods among gods"

I will literally WOTC anyone for the rest of my mafia career if they shoot in this setup, period. ever.

[Medea the Alien]

With that said my scum pool is {Grey, gamma, random} right now.

Lemme break down each of them.

[Medea the Alien]

Grey, gamma, random

Grey: As said before; grey was clearly closely reading my posts (he went so far as to comment on a typo/grammar error in one of them) and made the most obvious lead up into voting us ever. He's scum who went looking for a good reason to join the wagon on us; not town who was looking for scum. His answer when called out is "I dunno what to say so I'll be witty lel guyz amirite" Our scum read on the slot prior to his replace in is noted in our prior posts. Shout out to post 154 which is a REALLY awkward way to unvote a RVS vote; it's like he feels the urge to have a reason in case he gets called out for it later.

Gamma: RQS when already in RVS has no real town benefit and shits up the thread. I'm not quite sure where the townread of us in 329 comes from; it's like he randomly decided to be contrarian. This read is definitely weaker than the grey one though.

Random: Several other people have covered why random is a worthy wagon; but let me summarize my thoughts. Early votes Fate on gut; backs off when he gets pushback; hops BACK on when wagoned and tries to dirty townreads on fate.

[Medea the Alien]

-Grey-'s catchup of the thread reads naturally enough for me to give it a town read.

That and I want to be justified in my thinking Indigo was town for no reason

Can you explain why this is? Because it wasn't.

[Medea the Alien]

Being transparent about who he's about to vote isn't particularly scummy; confirmation bias is a thing.

Yes but in this case it was transparently scummy; not just transparent. That was the buildup of a case; that was reading our posts closely nitpicking errors but failed to comment on any of the major content; aside from stuff he could use to justify a vote on us.

[Medea the Alien]

Well you get to play mafia but so far that's been an unused option too.

I've been phone posting and on the road until yesterday, during which time I had a friend come over. This isn't an excuse, but its context for why I haven't sat down and read the thread and posted on a laptop.

There's something to be said for sitting in front of the screen with mafia, probably how my brain was trained to play it and how it operates best now.

That explains a lot.

This bumps Medea into consideration.

Like how the fuck does Fate's phoneposting habits "bump medea into consideration"?
Just one example.

[Medea the Alien]

Nacho you are doing the not weighing in on things thing, stahp it. You're not committing to a read on us and it's giving me ffery-hives.

[Medea the Alien]

Vote Count

Gamma Emerald -
Reflektor - Gamma Emerald (L-6)
randomidget - Aj the Epic, Fate, -Grey-(L-4)
Lil Uzi Vert - Empking, shadonra (L-5)
Empking - Lil Uzi Vert (L-6)
Aj The Epic - Realeo (L-6)
BBMolla -
shadonra -
-Grey- - Medea the Alien, BBMolla (L-5)
Fate - Reflektor, Persivul, randomidget (L-4)
Persivul -
Realeo -
Medea The Alien -
No Lynch -

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
Not Voting:

Day 1 Ends in:

(expired on 2017-01-21 15:15:25)

Like the time we have left is only enough to get a wagon to lynch if people get suddenly more active. Everyone checking in once a day at most just isn't enough.

[Medea the Alien]

So our sewer line just backed up into the basement shower....

We're just claiming early because I'm dealing with that; Penguin's working 10-12 hour shifts right now; deadline is approaching, and it's fairly clear the wagon momentum is squarely on us and nowhere else has traction.

We're the vig. Now go wagon actual scum. Knthnxbye.

@Mod Cabd Head VLA until plumber can diagnose, will have an update for you later today IRL

[Medea the Alien]

We obviously still want our -Grey- lynch, but that'll have to be another day's work.

UNVOTE:

Voting AJ or BBMolla tonight; leaning AJ myself but I need to read when it's not dribs and drabs between testing.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

You don't fucking say.

We were going to hammer at deadline, now we've got to rush out our wallpost before mod comes in.

[Medea the Alien]

P-edit: posting this before thread lock

Grey: As said before; grey was clearly closely reading my posts (he went so far as to comment on a typo/grammar error in one of them) and made the most obvious lead up into voting us ever. He's scum who went looking for a good reason to join the wagon on us; not town who was looking for scum.

Why does it matter if he telegraphed his vote when he made it?
It's not like you don't know who you're voting before you're done catching up; did you take any particular issue with the reasoning he pushed you on?

Okay, I know this isn't getting wagoned, but I've been out of it. Yes, frequently people decide where their vote's going before they've read every single post, but the first thing he bothers commenting on is Cabd's grammar error. He objects to Cabd's thinking it's towny for Persivul to notice the same phrasing, which...what, makes us scum with Persivul, makes us white-knighting, what?

He supposedly starts to consider us as viable scum when he finds out Fate's been phoneposting. So...the case is more convincing because of that? The case that he hasn't commented on?

Then:

I strongly disagree with this. What exactly in their tone sounds towny? They sound about as disengaged as is possible.

Somebody preparing for a 7 day visit with their daughter sounds disengaged?

REALLY?

Fucking scum ass push.

Because the V/LA post is the only one we get to judge someone on...that happens to be a push on his slot.

And then he follows his townreads. Which are: Fate, Reflektor, Realeo, and BBMolla. At the time of his post (near as I can tell) Fate's voting us, BBMolla is voting Indigo/Grey, Reflektor is voting Fate, and Realeo is voting AJ (Tammy was voting us before the replace-out, obv.) I'll give you the idea of 'follow the other supposed townies' and yeah, two were voting us, but of the other two, one was voting supposed town-him and the other was voting a different town read. Which would seem to indicate that maybe your town reads aren't the most cohesive people to be following?

I knew where he was voting as soon as he made the grammar vig post. (had my phone on at lab, couldn't post at the time) He was paying too much attention to our stuff but not engaging with it. (FTR, I found two other grammar errors in the two pages leading up to that.) If he was reading in order, he managed to avoid commenting on the whole scum read of us in that. If he was closely reading us because he checked the latest VC and wanted to know who would dare vote his 'clear town' slot, he would have been doing so, considering if we were scum. Instead he skirted around the whole thing, made very weak points, and came up with a good sounding reason to have his vote on us that falls apart with some investigation.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

;D

I hate you but at the same time it's 50-50 odds the mod notices hammer soooo

[Medea the Alien]

PS just like Cleavland blew a 3-1 lead; so did Reflektor throw our townread there.

[Medea the Alien]

Right now, town reads on BBMolla, Realeo, shadonra. Not liking Fate for town, if I'm being honest. I know he's moving the game along, but a lot of what he's suggesting is suboptimal. Suggesting we shoot someone with our one shot without a claim or a concerted wagon, pushing for hammers, not seeming to reevaluate when his biggest push of the game claims their PR.

Cabd just thinks it's a playstyle clash that's making us side-eye his posting, but eh. I feel really uneasy with him leading the decision making so much, even as I admit that we haven't been doing anything to counter that. Just something to consider when there are flip(s) to work with tomorrow.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

AJ, if you're town get your ass in here and give us some final thoughts eh?

[Medea the Alien]

I forgot Uzi and Gamma were in this game too lmao.

[Medea the Alien]

Yeah.. Uzi up; Reflektor down; after re-skimming the game once more.

[Medea the Alien]

If you're town there's no assurances we shoot but yeah noted.

[Medea the Alien]

Your wagon was as such (I think):

-Grey-

,

Realeo

,

BBMolla

, Empking,

randomidget

, Reflektor, Fate

I do tend to agree it was a scum-filled wagon; not sure I 100% concur on where it was.

We may or may not shoot. It depends if I'm PMSing.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

i think it's wrong to shoot, bc the only reason they wouldnt roleblock you is if your reads are totally off

Your input into my wife's menstrual cycle is noted.

Oops wrong account sorry mod.

[Medea the Alien]

Keep pushing; if he does we get to shoot you. Cabd promised me.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Yep! We're very happy with our life choices.

[Medea the Alien]

Realeo, I think I get what you're saying, and we sure as hell aren't townreading randomidget, but what makes the unvote/hop so much better/worse than any others? The lack of BBMolla claim?

at -Grey-'s reactions. Most fun I've had all week.

Show of hands, who thinks AJ's flipping town and who thinks he's flipping scum?

So far I have -Grey- for an incoming scum flip and no one else positing a definite opinion?

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Scum flip: -Grey-
Town flip: Reflektor, Medea, shadonra, AJ

Turning in soon, but rereading a bit of Reflektor's ISO makes me like them a touch more than earlier this evening. If only because I can relate to the hydra dissonance that emerges with Nacho sometimes, ha.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Scum flip: -Grey-

You should run with that.

As in you said AJ would flip scum. I'm not that repetitive.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Scum flip: -Grey-

You should run with that.

As in you said AJ would flip scum. I'm not that repetitive.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Whee phone double posting for me. And making me its punchline, ha.

Cabd isn't sure about yet another deadline wagon; I'm more up for pressuring randomidget to see what happens. See where things are in the morning. Would probably hammer to have a definitive flip at this point.

--PA

Mod, you have Fate voting on two players...

[Medea the Alien]

Hi checking in later, just had major dental surgery yesterday.

Fwiw even with bias of knowing the flip, going back it's really hard to find crumbs that would indicate any softing of a role on random. The only one we saw from our glance was him talking about something about something he could tell us tomorrow.

[Medea the Alien]

Pers + Midget what changed your mind on Fate?

nothing, but i don't think the lynch is going through today.
VOTE: bbmolla

UNVOTE:
VOTE: aj

Why you unvoted? He didn't claim anything.

VOTE: grey

24 hours left. Make up your mind?

didn't he claim PR?

The one that catch my attention is randomidget unvoting for no reason.

AJ is being lynched right? So -Grey- bus AJ if AJ flips scum?

i have a reason for unvoting. Will explain tomorrow.

Was this really all it took?


Also LMAO in hindsight for fate asking vig to shoot cop repeatedly.

[Medea the Alien]

Shooting the obvious one of his partners tonight~

[Medea the Alien]

We will hold off shooting anyone until we are ready. I'm on like... An entire alphabet of painkillers right now.

And yeah doc wasn't our shot.

[Medea the Alien]

I'm here too fwiw; still on some loopy drugs but I'm your medea-head chaperone of the day.

[Medea the Alien]

@Whoever asked about our sig countdown: It's our wedding anniversary. The first countdown was for Penguin flying to Cabd's state to meet him. The second countdown was for Cabd moving to Chicago. The third countdown was for our wedding. And now this one.

[Medea the Alien]

For the record; we don't have a gun so Fate being REALLY insistent that I have it makes Gamma claimed scum... I think? Because that means Fate was roleblocked. There's WIFOM there of course but it doesn't really matter....

Kthnxbye

[Medea the Alien]

We decided not to shoot; in case we ended up in a situation where the doctor was counterclaimed today and lynched wrong. We figured RB would CERTAINLY be used up by now so we'd be safe to shoot tonight if that happened without fail. I agree that in hindsight of the flip from last night's scumkill that strat is now extremely sub optimal but yeah. As for why I went along at first, it was to do this exact thing to ensure any CC was 100% bullcrap.

[Medea the Alien]

hrmmm

well at least the vig didn't shoot him lol

not sure how you can be certain about this
but whatever

Oh what?
Grey do you have any specific reasons?
And I'll catchup soon.

I am onto something Grey. I got a strong "Cop" vibe from Empking so I left him alone yesterday, but now hes a quality player who skated by all of D1 and did nothing to try to dismantle the "Fate wagon that had bad vibes" etc.

I'll be sure to take a looksie

Mod said dayvig shots end the day, so there's no point dictating the shot as a group

Holy shit, they did?

Not to mention THESE are not the posts one makes at the start of a day where they got a guilty on an otherwise universally townread player.

[Medea the Alien]

Pretty please no ending day for 24 hours, give me a chance to fiinish this week from hell and catch up tomorrow? Cabd gave me the gist of it, but I'd like to look at some stuff before ending the day.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

As a gunsmith, I got Reflektor innocent.

Just saw this LMAO

[Medea the Alien]

And by "just saw this"; I mean my wife saw it but I beat her to posting it so nyeh

[Medea the Alien]

Right; he "hypoclaimed" the result he DIDNT claim he got when fullclaiming.

[Medea the Alien]

@Mod can you please go back through day one and fix the vote counts for accuracy? We're trying to do VCA and at least a third of them are just wrong.

[Medea the Alien]

Oh, lol.

We already knew he was full of shit, but nice confirmation.

Sloppy play. No daytalk so team couldnt coach him, probably facepalmed when they saw it. Surprised one of his teammates didnt point it out for town cred tbqh

[Medea the Alien]

Realeo, I'm having trouble parsing your ISO for where your strongest scum reads are outside of GE. Can you please rank the following from town to scum: {shadonra, Persivul, BBMolla, Grey, Reflektor}?

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Also, FTR, trying to do a hard reset in my brain reading from D2 on not assuming Grey is scum. Grumble, grumble, should have followed up in the micro despite limerick BS, grumble. And yes, I know your play and reactions here have been totally different. [obligatory referencing a completed game before anyone has a heart attack]

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Posts that are kicking around my brain:

I am the Gunsmith with a guilty on Empking.

THAT is why I suspect Empking even though he gave off "cop" vibes.

Why would you think a PR that gives a gunsmith a fake guilty would be a true guilty?

...kind of doubting scum would be missing these details and posting about it publicly. Scum thought process about whether it can be wiggled out of is internal, not in an argument with the GS.

Nice job on the guilty, assuming there's no CC (and there's no reason to expect a CC). But, there's no way that I as scum would blatantly defend a buddy as in 941 and 945, and especially not in a 7:4 situation.

VOTE: Empking

Congratulates the town PR, discourages any scum from counterclaiming, sets himself up for why he isn't buddies with the guy who's going to flip scum at the end of the day. I...feel so disappointed, I liked the way Persivul seemed to be thinking most of the first day.

@Medea:

I suspect you're just saying that to draw an RB. I'm not sure how Nacho feels about it but I lean that it is optimal to actually shoot tonight, as the RB is going on one of you/Fate and a docsave+shot nets us a free ML.

If I'm being dumb and the number is off someone correct me but I think it's right. I'm fucking tired.

-Prism

Don't know Prism, but this is awful on three levels: First the odds of us shooting correctly AND the doc protecting were lousy enough to be a bad plan; second the emphasis on getting an extra mislynch, not an extra lynch; and third messing with our (admittedly poor) attempt to divert the RB. Didn't sit well with me.

Sidenote:

So uhhhhh....

Molla tell us who you're townreading so we can lynch them.

And now he's being funny. Damn it, my desire to shoot him is dropping so fast.

Interesting, the first two votes out the wagon on Gamma were Reflektor and Persivul. Not sure what it means, but not what I expected knowing where the day ended up so far.

Through page 40, posting before this gets out of control again.

--PA

[Medea the Alien]

Analyze the reactions to yesterday's wagon, how it was built, how scum tried to save Empking, etc.

Traps are cool if done properly, but when you bait one with lies, the results aren't valid.

So you don't think there's anything useful from yesterday at all.

4) Scum probably didn't hunt down doctor, I'm guessing doctor managed to save the NK target and died because that's how KBW's doc works.

Hey there. I just wanted to clear up a few things that are a result of my own idiotic human error, as well as some general questions.

The Doctor and Gunsmith in this setup are a bit different than you guys may be used to. (I've been playing on epicmafia too much...)

1. The Doctor does not die when protecting a player. The Doctor is also 2-Shot.

Jumped out at me.

Okay, done thinking for tonight.

--PA