Mini 1869- camn's revenge GAME OVER!


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Post Post #22 (isolation #0) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:45 pm

Post by mastina »

Hey.
VOTE: Nachomamma8.
Dead serious here.
I'm entering in a 1v1 with Nacho.

Like. If he flips town POWER lynch me here.

I was informed that role assignment wasn't random this game.
Pine knows me to be a stellar scum player and not quite as strong a town player, yet I wasn't one of his picks for the scumteam.
But unless I massively misunderstood the game's nature: Pine did in fact get a choice in at least ONE scumbuddy, if not all three. (Something about a draft order.)
He didn't select me.

I refuse to believe he allowed both me and Nacho to be town.
So lynch me, lynch Nacho, doesn't matter who you lynch first but Nacho is scum.
Guaranteed.
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Post Post #26 (isolation #1) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Post by mastina »

Like.
I realize this playerlist is mostly made up of newer players.
People with joindates in the, what, 2015-2016 range? Mostly like that.
You guys don't understand the history Pine, Nacho, and I have together as players. We were playing games together before you were in your mafia parents' wombs. Granddaddies and grandmommies of the game in comparison to most of you. Fuck, even if you're an alt chances are that you're still too new to remember us in our prime. The 2011-2013 range in particular was Pine's first prime. (He left and came back two or three times.)

Pine was my original rival in games, presumably the reason why I didn't actually draw scum. (Which I'm taking as a huge fucking slight against me because he knows how much I would have wanted to be his scumbuddy here.) We fought endless times in games. He, along with Nacho, was one of my first friends upon his return to the site, in spite of him consistently creaming me in games where he drew mafia and I drew town. There's dozens of games spanning YEARS of history. Not one or two. Like, more games than y'all have played your entire mafia career on mafiascum, number of games.

Now granted! Pine and I haven't actually played together in years. Or contacted each other much since then. But the point still remains true all the same: if anyone knows who Pine would pick this game, it's me. And I am telling you, 100%. Pine would NEVER let Nacho be town this game. Because while Pine as scum might be able to beat me, beating Nacho? Much harder for him to do.
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Post Post #34 (isolation #2) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:02 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 0, camn wrote:Before the game, Pine was given his choice of scumroles. He has DAYTALK as well.
After the playerlist was set.. Pine and I DRAFTED players. He went first, and we traded off until he was full.
Like. That role? Probably a Godfather. There's alternatives, of course, like a standard Roleblocker. But Pine is an older player. His ideas of what kind of roles are used in the site meta are years out of date. I know he likes Godfathers because I know him as a person and I swear to god his choice was either a Godfather (most likely) or a roleblocker (less likely but still possible).

Roles we now know to be commonplace like ascetic and ninja weren't used much in his heyday, so they wouldn't have been his pick.

And I tell you right here and right now. If Pine also got to choose which member of his scumteam got what role, he'd choose Nacho for the power role especially if it was the godfather. So I'm telling you. He chose Nacho as his first pick. From there, I'm not as certain. I know he didn't pick me even though a Nacho-mastina scumteam would have dominated.

But I sure as fuck wasn't drafted by camn. camn has absolutely NO reason to draft me as a player. As far as I can remember, we've never actually played together. I can see Nacho as being drafted by camn, sure...but that would require Nacho to have not been Pine's first pick on the draft, when he absolutely WOULD have been.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #3) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:18 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 0, camn wrote:01.
Secret Agent Jin

02. BTD6_MAKER
03.
TheRealGin-N-Tonic

04. Nachomamma8
05. Fate
06. drealmerz7
07.
Monokuma
(Nahdia + Road Kamelot)

08. mastina
09.
Aeronaut

10. Prism
11. SirCakez
12. Vaxkiller
13. pisskop
So in the last three months, Pine has played with: drealmerz, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, Secret Agent Jin, drealmerz/Secret Agent Jin again, drealmerz a third time, and Aeronaut.
I only did a quick search, so let me know if I missed any. (Because this is a really fucking huge thing: missing any is problematic towards analysis.)

Knowing this, I can say: pisskop, SirCakez, Prism, and BTD6_maker are all basically conftown. They haven't played with Pine recently as far as I know, and they're too young to have played with Pine in his glory days.

Now, I just realized Fate is a player in this game. I think that Fate is a player both Pine and camn would bid on because Fate is literally the god of mafiascum in how he destroys whichever alignment is in opposition to him. He's basically a really good candidate for the GOAT thread in that he dominates as scum and decimates scum as town. camn knows this, and Pine knows this, so both had reason to go for him.

I realize that this somewhat-weakens my Nacho-is-scum stance, because it comes to who Pine bid on first. I can guarantee you: because I wasn't Pine's first bid, Pine's first bit absolutely MUST have been one of Nacho/Fate. I still think Nacho.

So! Let's work from there.
Nacho/Fate has one scum and one town in there.
That leaves two scum in:
Secret Agent Jin, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, Monokuma (Pine might not have played with them, but they're the only hydra in the game and Pine might have drafted them for that reason alone), drealmerz, and Aeronaut.

I'll have to investigate those games to see what alignments those players were and how good they were, but I do have some lead already.
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Post Post #50 (isolation #4) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:20 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 9, Aeronaut wrote:one of you is Nahdia hi Nahdia
^Strong scum candidate.
In post 25, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Fuck these mind games already
^Strong scum candidate.
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Post Post #53 (isolation #5) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:21 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 29, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Pine is this the Mastin you told me about?
I mean, while I've had other rivals on the site, he was my first frenemy, so.

I believe that goes two ways, too.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #6) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:23 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 37, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I think he's got a strongman tbh.
Strongman falls under the category of "roles not common when Pine was at his prime".
So no.

Pine doesn't pick strongman.

It's a Godfather.
Outside chance of Roleblocker.
But really, just a Godfather.
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Post Post #61 (isolation #7) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:27 pm

Post by mastina »

Here, have a readslist.
ONE OF: Fate/Nachomamma (Fate?)
Btd6_maker
pisskop
SirCakez
Prism

drealmerz
Monokuma
Secret Agent Jin

The RealGin-N-Tonic
Aeronaut

THE OTHER OF: Nachomamma/Fate (Nacho?)
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Post Post #66 (isolation #8) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:32 pm

Post by mastina »

ONE OF: Fate/Nachomamma (Fate?)
Btd6_maker
pisskop
SirCakez
Prism
Vaxkiller

drealmerz
Monokuma
Secret Agent Jin

The RealGin-N-Tonic
Aeronaut

THE OTHER OF: Nachomamma/Fate (Nacho?)

Realized I was missing one. Vaxkiller, I believe, falls under the "lack of experience" category as far as I could quickly find.
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Post Post #72 (isolation #9) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:39 pm

Post by mastina »

Also, I should probably mention that right now there's a softclaim or two I REALLY want to make--things that Pine wouldn't get, but at least one other player would. I can't give them yet, though, because one of said players in question would be Nacho. Who has a 50% chance of being conftown and a 50% chance of being confscum. I lean towards Pine picking Nacho first, but I don't know for sure. While in THEORY we could wait for nights to sort this out (when one dies via nightkill, lynch the other), but that might take a couple of night phases to actually happen by which point I'd probably be dead and that'd be less-than-ideal.

I think the simplest solution here is to just line up lynches. Lynch Nacho today. He flips town, you lynch me. I'll flip town, but then D3 you lynch Fate and 100% guarantee you, you'll have lynched scum.
He flips town, then while I'm not exactly conftown, Fate is. Any and all power we have should be directed towards keeping Fate alive at that point.
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Post Post #73 (isolation #10) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:41 pm

Post by mastina »

(There's at least two references I could make. One of them is an AP-modded game. Nacho wouldn't be able to tell which one by just this message though.)
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Post Post #76 (isolation #11) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:48 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 74, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So mastin, what you propose is to not actually scum hunt but bob for apples?
What can I say, I'm
Pining
for more info.
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Post Post #80 (isolation #12) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:55 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 75, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I don't see why playing the game normal would be less beneficial than this crackpot theory you got going on.
Because this game is explicitly not normal.

Pine got to control his scumteam.

Assuming he just used random.org to roll the die for his scumteam is an inherently flawed and faulty assumption.

Maybe for a third pick, I can see him POSSIBLY doing that. He'd have two players he really wanted scum and/or two players he really didn't want camn making town, so after that it becomes possible in theory for his last, third, pick to be random. But even there I'm being extra-generous. The most likely thing for Pine to do is to pick each member individually, most likely because he knows of them from past experience.

He had three chances to pick me; he did not.
That tells me a lot about the setup he'd go for right then and there. (Keeping in mind camn wouldn't have picked me as town because she doesn't know me.)

So yes.
I am playing non-randomly. I am making non-random assumptions. Because this game is, explicitly, non-random. As a result, I am assuming Pine picked players he is familiar with and would trust to carry the game. I also assumed he would pick players he'd want to deny the town from having in their grasp. Yet I also know that camn has at least vaguely similar experiences to Pine in regards to the most major of the players here: Fate and Nacho.

Ergo, one is scum because Pine got first dibs on the draft and would have selected one of them...
...And the other is town because camn would have selected one of them as her first pick for town.
And the rest of the scumteam is made up of other such players Pine knows of and would trust.

Aeronaut pinged as a possibility, and so did you. Your actions thusfar in the game have only served to solidify this.
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Post Post #83 (isolation #13) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:58 pm

Post by mastina »

Like, I've never played a game with TheRealGin-N-Tonic before.

But.
He looks like obvscum.
So I'm pretty sure. He's just actually scum, and that this isn't merely a playstyle thingy here.
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Post Post #84 (isolation #14) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:01 am

Post by mastina »

ONE OF: Fate/Nachomamma (Fate?)
Btd6_maker
Prism
pisskop
SirCakez
Vaxkiller

drealmerz
Monokuma
Secret Agent Jin

Aeronaut
The RealGin-N-Tonic

THE OTHER OF: Nachomamma/Fate (Nacho?)
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Post Post #106 (isolation #15) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:48 am

Post by mastina »

Fun fact: last time I saw Pine as scum was in LQ's game. I wasn't reading knowing who the scum were. I never read D1. But basically from the first post of D2, I looked at him and I was like, "Yep. He's scum."
The last time we played together was Duck Tales, where I nailed the entire scumteam D1. (If not for a modkill, game would have been a perfect town sweep. I also successfully watched the nightkill, but thanks to a ninja, got no result.)
Before that, Street Racers London. (Fuck multiball, by the way. Also, I softclaimed watcher by referencing Duck Tales, and my townread on Pine was because I thought he got the reference and didn't nightkill me even knowing I was a watcher...when it turned out he missed the softclaim altogether and had no clue I was referencing that game. :facepalm:)
Before that, Enemy of my Enemy is my Enemy. (Open multiball on the other hand is fine. :D)
Before that, Pine had replaced out of this game, but it's up there with Tales of You in being the ultimate case of "I fucking told you so" with me being the mylo mislynch and yet having named the entire scumteam and laid out exactly
why
they were the scumteam. (Pine's slot was scum, and I knew his slot was scum. I also knew AP had a hider guilty, but nobody listened to me.)
Before that, this abysmal game.
Before that, I inherited a fucked-over scumteam. (Like, I was the last member alive. A prior member of my scumteam
stole the fakeclaim from my role PM
, and I wasn't given flavor from my scumbuddy's fakeclaim so I was left there UNABLE TO FLAVOR CLAIM properly in a HEAVILY FLAVORED GAME. I spent literally hours researching Batman, comparing him to Aquaman, my fakeclaim, and then comparing Aquaman info to my fakeclaim info, and trying to bullshit up a Batman fakeclaim FROM SCRATCH. Needless to say, was not amused. Also fuck multiball. Which caused Pine to win. Frustratingly enough, because I correctly named him as Marvel-scum. And he was the only one of them I caught!)
Before that, like literally one of the only games in which Pine was town where I was scum, Good vs Evil, Chaos vs Law. Pine was despicably-apathetic Chaotic Good. (None of the Chaotic Good players, save Regfan, deserved to win because they didn't give any fucks about that game at all. It's just that the Lawful Evil players played even worse, including making a nightkill which fucked my scumteam over. At the time, I was not a good scum player. Mastermind of Sin was the scum leader, and they killed him, forcing me to be solo-scum. That game's literally the first scumgame of mine where I evolved my play into its more or less modern form. Still lost, though, because in spite of my best efforts, the Lawful Good players were DAMN good at the game and deserved to win.)
Before that, this lulzy game, where as a cop my top choices were Pine/MoI, I replaced in at night, picked one of them, was killed, and it turned out both were mafia but they ended up losing thanks to a miscalculation on the part of some antitown player (forget which faction) that allowed for the game-winning crosskill to occur. (In short, I did literally nothing, got killed, and still won.)
Before that, one of a rare few games where we were both town, Mob Money. In mylo, Pine mislynched me.
Before that, we get into games that were damaged by the rollback, so lots of lost history around that point in time. Real shame, since that's the mastina-Pine primetime.
But hell, might as well mention this gem of a game, AKA, "the game in which town lynched only one scum and yet won anyway", with a second town-controlled death via the N1 vig, with literally every other scumkill (all four of them) being from the scum. (In other words, my entire faction was wiped out by the other scumteam at night.) Other games of note: the game where scum claimed bodyguard, I CC'd, and I successfully protected a cop Pine allowing him to guilty the last scum, and Underground Mafia, where I named the entire scumteam in my first post, laid out a detailed step by step methodical process to guarantee the town won, this process wasn't properly conveyed to the thread, and so Pine (as a replacement) fucked it up by lynching the player I said not to lynch and letting the player I was correctly scumreading win the game. (Of course, I was triple-confirmed town so nobody thought I was killed because I named the scumteam in my first post. Even though I did. :P Okay, technically, second, but it was first game content.)

I mean there are other games with Pine of course but not ones I'd particularly like to be reminded of. :facepalm:
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Post Post #108 (isolation #16) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:53 am

Post by mastina »

In post 85, Prism wrote:Can you explain why he is obvscum, without using the point I just made?
Yes, I can.
No, I won't.

I suggest reading what content he has provided this game thusfar, compared to the content of everyone else. Perhaps that way, you can see what I have seen. If not, then I'll explain at a later time at my convenience.
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Post Post #109 (isolation #17) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:56 am

Post by mastina »

In post 86, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So you're telling me you scum read me for not having any knowledge of the history between Pine and his other compatriots and then also not agreeing with your theory
I don't recall saying this at any point. :cool:
You have to realize that if Pine could pick the scum team, that means he's picking the players who he thinks could work together as their own unit, regardless if Pine himself was in the game or not.
Exactly, and yet I wasn't drafted for being scum in spite of me having a VERY strong habit of working well with Nacho (Calcifer might not be the greatest hydra of all time, but it's definitely in the top ten, if not top five), and literally no history at all of working with Fate.

Soyeah.
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Post Post #110 (isolation #18) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:57 am

Post by mastina »

In post 94, Prism wrote:If you're worrying that you've already ratted out the whole team, have no fear, I'm talking about Pine.
You.
I like you.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it'll break my heart if Pine liked you.
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Post Post #117 (isolation #19) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:04 am

Post by mastina »

In post 100, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:If I'm this obvscum then why in the fuck would Pine pick me?
You don't have to be obvscum to everyone.

Fuck, I can give you the PMs I sent Pine when he returned to the site.
He flat-out asked me: "What the fuck is with the trashy quality of the 2016 players? And to a lesser extent, the 2015 ones?"
Shit you not, if I switched accounts I could pull them up though Pine if he's feeling extra generous will flat-out confirm he said as such to me.

The quality of play has gone downhill in Pine's opinion, such that players who are obvscum to people like me...aren't obvscum to their contemporaries, because their contemporaries have forgotten some of the basic fundamentals which we veterans know so well. In short: while you're obvscum to me, you don't have to be obvscum to the rest of the thread.

Especially not when--and these are your own words, mind you--
In post 57, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
Hey Mastin fun fact, I got a nom for a team scum game with Pine in my first game on this site.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69088 (I'm blawb who signed under /Gin and then took over the hydra D2)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69768 This time I'm IC and Pine was scum, Pine won
In post 86, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:You have to realize that if Pine could pick the scum team, that means
he's picking the players who he thinks could work together as their own unit, regardless if Pine himself was in the game or not
.
I'd say "got a Scummy nom for performance" qualifies as "part of a team Pine thinks would work together well as a unit", no?
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Post Post #120 (isolation #20) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:09 am

Post by mastina »

In post 105, Pine wrote:It's cute that you guys think you can outguess me.
Yeah well the only way I can't outguess you is, quite literally, if you used random.org to just pop three random names into your scumteam.

Literally anything else, and I can. Call it rival power. (I actually have a character in my webcomic describe this at some point, where basically they talk about how rivals tend to know things about each other that even their best friends don't. Rival insight. I wish I could find a trope for it, it's definitely a common one.)

Of course, I don't actually NEED to outguess you. Just outplay you. And with you as literal confirmed scum, the easy half of my job is done. :P
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Post Post #121 (isolation #21) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:11 am

Post by mastina »

In post 111, Pine wrote:Christ, Mastina, we've played a lot together. You didn't even mention some of the really old games.
In post 106, mastina wrote:I mean there are other games with Pine of course but not ones I'd particularly like to be reminded of. :facepalm:
^There's a reason I'd rather not be reminded of those older games. :P
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Post Post #124 (isolation #22) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:15 am

Post by mastina »

In post 114, drealmerz7 wrote:HIIII! *waves in face enthusiastically*
Hi!
You don't know me, but I'm a reviewer who actually reads games I review some of which you've been in so I know you! Well you've interacted with me but never really in a true game sense. The point I'm making is that you're town here and you'll quickly find out that while your enthusiasm is great, and in fact I really like your posting and hope you continue to keep it up, your efforts are best directed elsewhere.

My preference for today would be Nacho, but I'll lynch TheRealGin-N-Tonic if I can't strongarm that through.
Of course, Aeronaut's also a lynch I'd endorse, but I don't actually anticipate him getting much in the way of pressure so I don't really think it's necessary to pursue him today.

Now that we've been properly introduced, with due respect...fuck off. <3
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Post Post #224 (isolation #23) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:59 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 126, drealmerz7 wrote:it's unfortunate your scum game isn't as refined, you should play more
Case'n'point that you don't know me.

My scumgame is the most refined of any player on mafiascum. There's a damn good reason I was nominated for Don Corelone on consecutive years. (I lost both times, but I was nommed all the same.) You'll never find a player more self-conscious about their own meta than me. You'll never see a player who better knows what she can do, what she can't do, what she does and can't replicate/hide as an alignment, and what she does that can be replicated/hidden as an alignment*.

There's a reason why I take elements from my scumgame when playing town. No seriously. I deliberately take elements from my scumgame into my towngame. Rather than vice-versa. You know why I take elements from my scumgame into my towngame, rather than elements of my towngame into my scumgame? Because my scumgame needs nothing to improve; my towngame needs desperately to improve.

About once every year or two, I'll crave a scum game to show off my skills, demonstrate this first-hand. "You think I suck as scum? HA. Well, HERE YA GO, THIS GAME SHOWS YOU WHY I DON'T." Now while I did come in this game quite frankly expecting to be scum, I don't actually have a need to show off my skills. This game was recent enough that I can say, "that's what I can do as scum". Where in spite of being
confirmed scum
, our lover didn't vote for us for days. DAYS. Despite us being 100% confirmed absolutely to be confscum. We had them so thoroughly fooled (and that was all me), it took them a long time to accept it. I mean, yeah, we didn't win that game: we were, after all, CONFIRMED SCUM. There was no way to wiggle out of it. But the fact that we almost did in spite of the game being literally impossible for us to win should tell you something about my manipulation skills as scum.

So there's damn good reason I prefer town: because my towngame? Yeah, not so stellar, that. It's what I need to improve on, so it's my preferred alignment and also what I am most enthusiastic about. As scum, it's generally a given: "Oh, I'm going to win this game". Or lose it purely by a combination of bad luck and unfortunate mechanics in play, as it so happened, but close enough. As town, I have to fight every step of the way.
I will likely direct efforts elsewhere since tunneling on you on D1 is about 100000x more likely to get me lynched more than you
No, because I am insanely mislynchable as town. Like, ridiculously mislynchable as town. Like, I get mislynched more often than I live. Like, basically the only time I don't get mislynched is when I'm either nightkilled and/or conftown of some sort. You can push a wagon through on me if you wanted to. You also can't be lynched because fuck that, I'll fight every step of the way to keep you alive.
where do you think I should direct them? TRGNT, eh?
Or Aeronaut, or Nacho.
anywhere but you, I'm sure
Quite the opposite. Fuck focusing on Btd6, Fate, Monokuma, pisskop, Prism, SirCakez, or Vaxkiller. All that'll do is serve to demonstrate what we already know: you're town, they're town, your efforts there would be town-town, and thus a waste of time.

*Speaking of which, time for the obligatory plug of the flowchart. What flowchart, you may ask? This one, of course!
mastin2 wrote:
mastin2 wrote:
Bulbasaur Commonwealth wrote:Here, for your reading pleasure, might as well quote this.
In post 24, mastin2 wrote:
In post 3, SleepyKrew wrote:I think everyone should make one of these. Especially mastin.
Actually...I have.

I've been meaning to post it, too. It's about a year out of date, though, but I started compiling a way around Mafia with the Quickness 2 called, "How to read Mastin: the flowchart".

Spoiler: Stuff about it
mastin2 wrote:The flowchart, while half a year old in its latest version, still applies more than it doesn't, by the way.
I'll condense it down for you, though:
If Mastin is scum, accept the loss; she's going to win regardless of what you do. :P So treat her like town.
If Mastin is town, then she is town. Treat her as town. If she wants to be listened to, listen to her and trust her instincts. If she doesn't tell you to listen to her, take her words with a grain of salt; they're reads but not solid ones.
BAM.
You now know how to treat Mastin.
Will work out for you nearly every single game. :P
mastin2 wrote:
In post 1170, Aneninen wrote:Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.
Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.
I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)
Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is
lethally
effective.
mastin2 wrote:Though that does remind me, I need a point in there about focusing on scumhunting.
In post 1372, TheAdrienC wrote:I find her posts coming from a mostly town point of view and she has a genuine interest in finding scum.
Right, that's another one I need to add in.
mastin2 wrote:
In post 644, Slice of Life wrote:
How To Read Mastin
:

Are you zMuffinman?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->
Are you AngryPidgeon?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->
Are you a player who has hydraed or has otherwise worked well with Mastin?

Yes-->You likely don't need the chart, but because you're not that familiar with her, you should probably go through it anyway as a precaution.
No-->You REALLY need to go through the chart; proceed! But fair warning in advance that it's only about 90% accurate.

Is/Are zMuffinman/AP in the game?

Yes-->Sheep them on their read! Never doubt it.
No-->Think like them and continue on.

THE FLOWCHART:

Is it D1?
Yes-->...And you're suspicious of Mastin?!?
She's town.
No-->Is it D2? Yes-->She's prob-town.
No-->Is it D3 or later? Yes-->Proceed.

Does Mastin look town?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed to next step.

Trust her as town.
What does she do?

Get paranoid of you-->She's town.
Enthusiastically work with you-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Nothing-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Milk your townread and bully you-->Proceed.

Suddenly pressure her.
What does she do?

Freak out-->She's town.
Show concern, but subdued-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Brush it off-->Proceed.

Is she posting up a storm?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she gloating how good her scumgame is?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does Mastin have delusions of grandeur?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she waffling...
...A lot?

Yes-->She's town.
Sorta?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does she look like she's trying to leave a legacy?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she antagonizing everyone?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Has Mastin rambled at all on MD theory?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making a case for why she could be scum?
Yes-->She's town.
Kinda?-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making very strong reasons why she's town?
No-->She's town.
Kinda-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

If applicable, did she 'crumb her role and/or claim it openly and immediately?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Do the circumstances behind her play and/or claim look town?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she irrational?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she spewing random illogical theories?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does her posting look intentional?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed.

Is she spontaneous, random, and/or whimsical?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is her tone flat?

No-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

(BONUS:
If Mastin is behind, does she demonstrate knowledge of the
current
gamestate she could not reasonably have at her supposed point of reference?

No-->She's town.
It's hard to say...-->She probably does know, but not much, having likely skimmed offline, not logged in, and chose not to get the full context to spoiler her as probable-town.
Yes-->Proceed.)

And finally...

Is there minimal resistance to lynching her?

Yes-->She's town; defend her!
...Maybe?-->You've gotten this far and the best you've got is a "maybe"?!? You dummy, run through it again! (But she's probably town anyway.)-->All other factors equal, if you're having this much trouble reading Mastin, just freakin' assume she's town. (She likely is, anyway.)-->FOR THE LOVE OF GODS, SHE'S TOWN, DANG IT.
No-->She's probably scum...but you should run through the flowchart one more time just to be sure, as a precaution.
Is Mastin's posting wildly inconsistent?
Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
No-->Proceed.)
(Oh, and I think rambling in-thread's already there*, but if not, it should be.)
*Relies on scum having daychat. Scum have daychat, in-thread rambling = decent towntell. Scum don't have daychat, rambling = prob-null, maybe slight townlean. Scum daychat ambiguous, assume slight townlean.
(Oh, should be noted. Last scum, rambling in-thread gets upgraded to major towntell, since scuMastin typically keeps rambles to the scum QT about why she's screwed.)
mastin2 wrote:Totally should just, in general, take this policy about me.
There's a flowchart that I plan to publish that will give better tells for reading me in general, some of which are timeless, others which are in contemporary site meta, but valuable all the same. Until it's actually published, though, the general policy I have on reading me is, increasingly, becoming:

Just assume I'm town until you have a REALLY solid reason not to. You'll be right the VAST majority of the time, by sheer probability alone.
(In fact, beyond probability. Probability says I should be scum a minimum of 25% of the time. 2014's been something like half that overall.)
It'll save you a BUNDLELOADS of headaches.
(Should be noted that my record was 34 games IN A ROW as town and my scumgame remains STILL below statistical probability in numbers.)
mastin2 wrote:"If you're townreading Mastin, lynch her. She's scum, having successfully predicted your movements and is manipulating you. You fell into her trap, hook, line, and sinker.
If you're scumreading Mastin, she's town; save her from the lynch. She's probably either really onto something or really lost. In either case, she needs your help, either to sheep her or help her develop more accurate reads."
Some of them are out of date thanks to contextual meta shifts, but most of them still apply.
Bulbasaur Commonwealth wrote:(Note of course that the flowchart is never 100% accurate. It's impossible, literally impossible, to display all of them in a single game since many of them are in fact slightly contradictory, but the point is to see as many as possible and if the majority matches town or scum. This chart has been in play for quite a while, now, and to this date, in spite of no active attempts to uphold it and some attempts as scum to subvert it, remains highly relevant to my play. It goes to prove my point, though: scuMastin always has this laser-like focus. Anything Goes in particular, until I faked having my confidence shattered, I was pushing for a specific lynch. In games like Resistance where I was the last living scum in lylo, I wove a narrative specific to one player being scum because I held focus. In my entire scumgame career, holding focus has done nothing but serve me well. Losing focus has done nothing but screw me over. Because guess what? People like focus. They like confidence. They love to see assurance in a read. They want to have a figure be charismatic and to follow. It's an inherent part of people's nature. That's why tunneling is so prevalent, because it works DAMN good and well to get a lynch. People hate doubt. When someone is calling everyone town/scum in rapid circles, AKA circlejerking, people think it's scum trying to mislynch anyone. They see desperation and attribute it to being scum. They don't see a town player desperately trying to figure out the game. They see a scum player that is trying to find options. So damn fucking straight. Maybe someday I'll flail as scum. It could in theory be this game. But in practice? Fuck no. As scum I'd push a lynch through; as town, here I am without a clue.)
Bulbasaur Commonwealth wrote:(I really need to also add a section in there about explicitly blowing up.
I don't think I've ever thrown f-bombs around as scum freely, aside from some trolling in L4D when I literally claimed scum in-thread once I realized Molla had a guilty on me.
As town, you'll note, I go absolutely ballistic, and for damn fucking good reason. Lynching me has never done a town favors, ESPECIALLY not in the lategame.)
^That's how. ('Course, the flowchart was developed for single-ball games. I actually have no clue myself how well it does or doesn't hold up in multiball.)
mastin2 wrote:(I just realized that an item not on the flowchart but which should be is how I explain my reads:
"Does she explain her reads in crystal clarity?
No-->Almost certainly town, though you can proceed as a precaution just in case.
...Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
Yes-->Proceed.")
Not included: "Is she doing anything?"
Yes-->Well, go read what she's doing, dummy!
No-->She's probably fighting a flake.

Doesn't tell you alignment, but is useful to have on there anyway. :P
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Post Post #229 (isolation #24) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:15 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 141, SirCakez wrote:We have literally no clue of how Pine picked up his players,
Wrong.

Yes we fucking do.
It's called knowing Pine as a person.
Psychological profile of Pine, as a player. His likes. His dislikes. His weaknesses. His strengths. His habits. His friends. His playing history.
This game is explicitly not random. So treating it as if it were random will give you nothing but a bad time. And I am telling you: in spite of the fact that I've known Pine for longer than anyone else in this game, save Nacho, and in spite of me being Pine's oldest friend and thus knowing him better than the rest of you schmucks, he didn't draft me...and while you have only my word at that...as soon as I flip town (and I will in fact be flipping town), you BETTER FUCKING BELIEVE me when I say that is significant and means...

...That Pine left the person who is basically the Pine expert around to be town. I know Pine. YOU don't. YOU have no experience with him. But I have more experience with Pine than any other player here. And my experience transcends time. I know Pine from the past in his glory days. I know Pine from his brief return to the site after having flaked. And I know Pine in the present, too, because not only have I seen him in games, but I've also talked to him outside of games. Given him advice. Shown him how site meta has shifted. I know Pine on every level that you do not.

So when I tell you that Pine did something: you better fucking believe that Pine did in fact do that thing.
"I think Pine would pick him as scum" is scummy af.
There's no think.
None.
Just knowledge.
Simple, fundamental knowledge.
Of who Pine would pick.

With him having not picked me, there's only a select few he would have picked.
I think the Real Gin N Tonic (mainly because of )
Yeah that's a shitty post all-around so citation needed.
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Post Post #231 (isolation #25) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:28 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 149, Aeronaut wrote:Mastin, I respect your reasoning on how Pine would draft, but I also feel like Pine's trying to fuck with us. Your strong reaction to not being picked and assumption that nacho MUST be scum just makes me think that it could have easily been done on purpose like that, to get you two at each other throats.
Huh. Weird. I swear I've heard this reasoning before.
In post 27, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I'm actually going to argue the fact that if both of you are steller scums, he'd make sure both are town purely for the fact that he'd know you'd be at each others throats.
Oh yeah. That's because I have.
Pine is also someone who strikes me as good at making you think what he wants you to think.
Yes, he is. But while he was better at it than I was at seeing through it when we first met each other almost six years ago, he stagnated whereas I got better. The only reason that Pine's considered stellar in manipulation is because townplay of the site meta went to shit in the last couple of years. He's still stagnant. He hasn't improved in the last few years. I was able to tell just from a casual glance at a game he was scum. Because he's still the exact same scum player he was years ago. He's better than most players, sure. But most players are shit. Pine can fool people who aren't familiar with him. Pine can fool people who don't know how he thinks, how he operates. But he can't fool people who intimately know him.

Also justsayin this was a scumpost through-and-through.
The first section echoing TheRealGin-N-Tonic. That section having been bad in the first place. Writing off Pine's choices as unreadable, when the whole fucking point of this game is outguessing Pine. (Literally this game is outguess Pine: the game. That's the whole fucking theme of the game, and Aeronaut is telling us
not
to do that, to treat this game as if it were normal...when that's exactly what Pine would want.) Saying Pine is unpredictable. The whole Nacho/mastina bit. And most of all, the vote on drealmerz, who is basically the most obvtown of the players who have history with Pine.
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Post Post #232 (isolation #26) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:32 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 153, Monokuma wrote:
In post 48, mastina wrote:Knowing this, I can say: pisskop, SirCakez, Prism, and BTD6_maker are all basically conftown. They haven't played with Pine recently as far as I know, and they're too young to have played with Pine in his glory days.
This is a pretty shortsighted conclusion coming from you!
Actually it's incredibly long-sighted. Part of my plan, I guess you could say.

This is basically my way of saying that those players get a temporary free pass, for as long as I live and we still have 2 or more scum alive. I won't consider lynching them prior to that point. I have good reason for offering this immunity. Of course they could be scum. But they aren't. And I'm not touching them, least of all on day one.
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Post Post #233 (isolation #27) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:34 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 155, Aeronaut wrote:Why?
Because it's the case.
Ok, well how are we expected to ever do anything with your read of him if you're not going to give us a reason why?
By trying to figure out the read on your own.
And from this, forming your own read.
And viewing by your own lens.
And reflecting by that.
You know, standard stuff that you'd have to do anyway?
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Post Post #237 (isolation #28) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:36 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 158, Monokuma wrote:What about your desire to lynch Nacho isn't 100% unadulterated organic non-GMO
guessing
?
Guessing implies that there is a lack of knowledge behind the action.
It implies randomly taking a shot in the dark.
This?
A clearly illuminated path with a laser sight.

Kinda hard to miss.
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Post Post #248 (isolation #29) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:47 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 164, Aeronaut wrote:Why? Because Pine knows we would of thought that and it's all WIFOM.
You know what wifom is?
Real wifom is?
Do you want to truly know and understand what wifom is?

I'll tell you what wifom is.
Spoiler: Wifom is...
The absolute most overused buzzword used on mafiascum.net, by people who don't understand what the term really means, and is used as a bullshit "justification" to dismiss valid scumhunting tools, such as NKA ("but, maybe the scum killed for WIFOM!" yeah no), VCA, or in this case: setup generation.
But if you don't want to use that definition, I'll tell you what definition you can use: the game is out-thinking the thinker.

Now you tell me that Pine cannot be out-thought.

I say bullshit, he absolutely can.

Pine's not a moron.
He knows what people think of him: Some amazing scum player who is a mastermind. A genius. He isn't predictable. He is hard to catch. So his moves aren't going to be able to be deciphered. This is what Pine knows people think of him. So Pine will just do what makes the most sense: just go with the choices which are most optimal.

It's like nightkills in any game.
This isn't Pine-specific. It's userbase in general. Scum know that towns won't do NKA. They know that towns think NKA is wifom. So what do scum do? They don't do the wifom kill which is suboptimal for them. They make the kill which most benefits them, safe and secure in the knowledge that any NKA done which incriminates them will be written off as nothing more than wifom.

Ergo, in this game, Pine knows that people are going to assume that he made wifomy choices. Yet, wifomy choices are suboptimal for him: they lack team synergy and they lack strength of a scumgame. So, by making wifomy choices, Pine not only would be doing what the town expects of him, he would also be leaving himself with a much, much weaker scumbase.

So instead, he just makes the most obvious choices, safe and secure in the knowledge that because they are obvious, anyone arguing they are scum for being obvious will be written off on "but wifom!", all the while having built...a scumteam that has both synergy and strong players which Pine knows will be able to play and function well.

Really not that hard to understand.
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Post Post #249 (isolation #30) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:48 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 166, Monokuma wrote:But really, look at him. You think that's scum?
No, he shouldn't, which is why the fact that he did is one reason Aeronaut is scum.
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Post Post #254 (isolation #31) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:56 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 173, SirCakez wrote:There's definitely credit to be had in bussing him.
Oh yes. There certainly is. And you're gonna love this.

I
have
bussed Nacho before.

...A grand total of once. Pine was in that game, too!

It was called Mafia on Werewolf Island.
Funny story, there.
I bussed both my scumbuddies, Nacho AND T-Bone that game.
I also set up a softclaim of cop, CONVINCED that there was no actual cop in the game. Why I thought that, god only knows, but I was absolutely CONVINCED there was no cop in the game.
So much so, that when a player did in fact claim cop...as the last member of the mafia, I counterclaimed the cop, insisting said cop could only be a werewolf because I legit believed they were a werewolf fakeclaiming cop, just as I was mafia fakeclaiming cop.
...Turned out, the cop was a cop.

The next day, I truthfully claimed that I was a doctor. (I was a mafia doctor.) I truthfully claimed the above: that I was convinced that there was no cop in the game, and that the cop was a werewolf fakeclaiming. These were both 100% true facts. And yet, on suspicion of me being a WEREWOLF (the faction the town was interested in lynching), they lynched me, because they thought for sure that I wouldn't have double-bussed and that I was therefore a werewolf lying through my ass.

And funnily enough, JUST after I was hammered, they realized, "Oh, shit. You're not scum-werewolf, are you? You were the last mafia scum, weren't you?" Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
That's my Nacho-bussing story right there.
And the wolves went on to sweep the game after that because the town REALLY didn't need a mafia lynch. They REALLY needed a werewolf lynch, I was swearing to them I wasn't a werewolf, they didn't believe I wasn't a werewolf even though I wasn't, so by lynching mafia they ended up losing the game.

Good times.
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Post Post #256 (isolation #32) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:00 pm

Post by mastina »

(Incidentally, that was one of the games which shaped my belief in exploiting third parties even malevolent ones. I didn't claim mafia for two reasons: fear of a modkill, and fear that any chance of escaping the noose would be thrown out by having done so and they'd lynch me because a scum lynch is a scum lynch. But had they asked if I was mafia BEFORE my lynch, rather than AFTER my lynch, at that point I probably would have just honestly said, "Yes. Very stupid, idiotic mafia, but mafia all the same. I realize you need to lynch me at some point, but right now I REALLY don't want the wolves to win and if it's a choice between the wolves and you, I'd want you to win so I'd prefer to help you there and I can't do that if you lynch me." Who knows if that'd have worked or not though.)
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Post Post #257 (isolation #33) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:01 pm

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(Also, that's basically one of the only games where I as scum got to lynch Pine! Who, otherwise, would be a choice nightkill of mine.)
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Post Post #259 (isolation #34) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 176, pisskop wrote:Mastina is another player people gravitate around when they dont need to.
Which is funny.
Annoyingly enough, there's a consistent pattern to this.
When I specifically am not interested in people sheeping me, I have people who then proceed to sheep me, in spite of multiple times me insisting that I'm just pursuing my own thing, that I've got nothing real, that what I'm going after is probably wrong and I have zero confidence in it being right, with it simply being a best guess of mine.

When I specifically state I am aiming for people to sheep me, nobody does. They laugh. They go lolmastina. They call me scum. They call me names. And in the end, I get to watch the town loses and go, "I fucking warned you, but nooooooooooooooooo" in postgame because nobody bothered to actually follow me when I asked them to.

And the funny thing is, the two seem to reinforce each other.
When I am right, people will point to those times I was right, as justification for following me even after I tell them not to.
When I am wrong, people will point to those times I was wrong, as justification for NOT following me even after I explain to them exactly why I didn't want to be followed then but I DO want to be followed now.

It's pretty headbangingly painful to watch play out, time and time again.

Guess which one I'm in right now?
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Post Post #263 (isolation #35) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:15 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 177, drealmerz7 wrote:I can soul-read pine pretty much, yep, go figure
Fuck your claim of being able to do this and recognize that *I* am the one who actually can. Pine was one of my first, and closest friends, and bitter rivals, and nobody knows how he operates better than I do. You lack the game experience and you lack the personal connection. I have both. That's not arrogance speaking. That's just pure simple fact. I have the most games with Pine of any player. I have the most personal connection to Pine of any player.

You can assume that Pine wouldn't let me be town given these factors--that's fair.
You can assume that with Pine not letting me town given these factors and having made me scum, that when I say something I have manipulated it towards a scum agenda.
But the simple fact is, I am town. So I am here to wreck Pine.

That being said: you're right on one thing.
he thought he'd fuck with us by not fucking with us for the draft choices and we'd spend whatever energy trying to figure that out would be his-fuck-with-us meanwhile he has simply chosen who he wants on his team, SIMPLE AS THAT
It really is that simple, because he really does operate that way.

You just selected the wrong people for his team.
Guarantee you: since I wasn't his first pick, Nacho was.
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Post Post #266 (isolation #36) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:40 pm

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In post 187, Secret Agent Jin wrote:Does Mastina post these analytical posts a high majority of the time no matter alignment or is this a rare thing?
It's a really rare thing.

As scum I usually tend to be disinterested in the game because I just assume I'm going to win, but there's always exceptions: a game I feel I can't just autocruise to victory and need early towncred in. A game where the concept is something I absolutely adore and thus want to jump into instantly. Things like that will cause me to be active as scum.

As town I do tend to be slightly more enthusiastic because I have a challenge of proving I'm not incompetent. However, I don't usually share analysis early. That's ridiculously rare from me. My early enthusiasm takes form in other ways most commonly. Also, my towngame tends to suffer from apathy if I lack a plan, if I lack direction, so that can and will cause my activity to plummet sharply. Because of this, a highly active, analytical start to my game is really rare as either alignment.

The reason why it's happening here, though, should be self-evident enough: this is a game I am REALLY excited about. Like, I was excited about DEFCON, because I knew it was going to be a blast (ha) to play in, and I expected lolnukes to be flying everywhere and for me to die quickly and be left at that. But the excitement I felt for this game is an entirely different type of excitement, because here I actually get to show off my skills. I was thinking it'd be as scum, which I usually come in thinking anyway (most of my plans start as scum plans, and then when I draw town I'm forced to modify and adapt them to accommodate my alignment), but because it's town, I get to show you such beautiful things. Aspects of my play I didn't get to show off in Defcon, namely, me actually scumhunting. Me actually putting in real effort. My thought process. My psychological profiling at its finest. Strengths, weaknesses, meta behind the players, the whole works. And I get to play against Pine, my first mafia rival. My first frenemy. The guy I know better than almost any other player, especially as time has passed. (Early Pine games? Knew nothing about him. Later Pine games? Had intimately been exposed to his thought process, including hydraing with him.) I have reason to be this way as either alignment, though, so the judgment call on why I'm this way is yours to make.
She also said that both Nacho and herself cant be scum together for reasons she has explained multiple times.
Actually, no. Nacho and I could both be scum.
It's FATE and Nacho who cannot both be scum, because whoever Pine didn't pick, camn would.

camn had no reason to draft me. So Pine absolutely COULD have picked me as scum.

Now, granted, if Nacho is scum as I feel he is, my push on him would probably make me be viewed as obvtown. But I'd be just that: obvtown, not conftown. Because there'd always be the possibility I bussed. (My lifespan this game is probably limited anyway though because scum will likely want me dead no matter what, so it won't take long for me to die.)
I can see it now, a wall sized bulletin board with pins and strings leading everywhere. If she is town, i can see someone flipping an alignment she didnt produce so she corrects her massive read board to calculate in how they flipped. If she is scum, she has piles of notes to justify why her read was wrong and line up another lynch.
Actually not that far off, but you have to keep in mind that my mind is basically a gigantic bulletin board with pins and strings leading everywhere, so I keep it all in my brain. I don't take physical notes, except whenever I PM the mod. (Usually to convey info to the dead/spectator thread, like, "what the fuck my plan is right now". As town because I feel the need to justify my actions, as scum to gloat. Because as town I feel like I undergo the hero's journey, and as scum I feel like a supervillain.)

As town I try to map out every happenstance and see where things lead, balancing a series of possibilities versus probabilities. The way my mind works in a game is that, at all times, I am simultaneously right and wrong on everyone, because I both see everyone as scum and everyone as town. Because all are possible, I then have to work out which are the most likely: what is actually relevant, versus what is just worthless. What looks good, versus what actually
is
good. What looks scummy, versus what actually comes from scum. I weigh every action, I look at things both microscopically and macroscopically, by seeing things on an individual level and also seeing them on the whole. I calculate the odds consistently, every step of the way, to come to conclusions, and from these conclusions, I form my plans.

As scum, I see strings. I see myself as the puppeteer. I see myself pulling at the select strings I need to manipulate people my way. I see the strings which control the system. I use situational awareness at its purest form, psychologically profiling each player to know their strengths and their weaknesses. (Keep in mind I often have more knowledge of a player than I'll admit to, because I use a ton of alts.) I know what each of them is likely to see. I know how each of them is likely to act. And I subtly push things so that they turn on each other, and direct actions so that they stay on each other, rather than realizing they're engaged in town-v-town arguments. If a townbloc forms without me in it, I exploit paranoia to break it apart. If a townbloc forms with me in it, I work to keep paranoia from forming and easily allow the townbloc to lynch town outside of said townbloc. If players scumread me--which I can tell when they will or will not--I use their scumread on me to my advantage. I paint our exchanges in a way which makes the rest of the town think they are townVtown, invalidating their valid points. I will churn out reads which they try to decipher: they correctly assume me to be scum, but assume my reads that I generate are geared towards survival, rather than the truth, which is...to mislead them. So they go scumreading players I want scumread, and townreading players I want townread, because I direct them to do so not by my actions, but by their own, by faulty assumptions they are wont to make.

So your description? A pretty apt one, I'd say.
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Post Post #267 (isolation #37) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:41 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 188, Aeronaut wrote:Well, besides his entrance, not really. I also don't really see it as auto-town either though. I see it as something he'd do in almost any scenario.
This is a scumpost, by the way.

See if you can figure out why.
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Post Post #269 (isolation #38) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:42 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 203, pisskop wrote:Who's super town btdubs
You.
Also drealmerz.
Prism's pretty great, too.

That should give you a mighty fine start.
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Post Post #271 (isolation #39) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:46 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 213, Monokuma wrote:Stop voting based on pregame speculation of who Pine would and wouldn't pick.
Okay.
Here's non-spec reasons.
Iso me. Look for what I say on Aeronaut and TheRealGin-N-Tonic.
If that's not enough, go to iso them. Do a triple-iso even: overlay my posts with theirs, so you see what I talk about as I talk about it, in regards to them.

There.
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Post Post #273 (isolation #40) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:50 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 225, drealmerz7 wrote:mastina you sound like my alter-fucking-ego
Sorry, chum, but I've been around since before you were born. If one of us looks at all like an aspect of the other, it's you to me.

And to be fair, I do recognize some of me in you.
Which is why I know telling you that you're wrong won't actually have any effect on you whatsoever, but oh well, I like doing so anyway because you never know, you might actually listen someday when you realize what I've been doing. But, nah. It's better to have been wrong and stood your ground than to back down and be a coward, right? Which is why you won't.
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Post Post #296 (isolation #41) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:40 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 234, drealmerz7 wrote:with the additional skill of being able to town it up so much as scum
This is not a skill I have.

"But...you just laid out why you're a good scum player."

Yes. I am a good scum player. But it's not from being able to town it up so much as scum--towning it up as scum is, ironically, suicidal in the longterm. That sounds counterintuitive, but every god-tiered scum player recognizes that the best scum
aren't
the ones who make you think they are the towniest of town players. The best scum players are the players who you can reasonably deduce to be scum...and yet, for some reason you never decide to actually lynch them. There's always someone who's a higher priority. There's always someone who is a better target, who must be lynched before them. That is the mark of the god-tiered scum player.

And I'll tell you why: a scum player who towns it up? Is vulnerable to paranoia. Towns love paranoia. It only takes two days for it to build up. Even in a micro, that's viable. In a mini, still viable. In a large, you better believe it. Scum live off of exploiting town paranoia...which is a bit difficult to do if scum would be lynched THANKS to the paranoia. Scum do not want to be the towniest of town players, because then one of two things happens:
-The scum player cruises off of their early town credit, and paranoia builds that, "Hmm, maybe that player was scum, who towned it up early and is cruising on the towncred?"
-The scum player continues to town it up the whole time, and paranoia builds that, "This player has been towning it up the whole time, and yet they've never been nightkilled. Why?"
While the latter is easier to overcome as far as paranoia goes, it also requires a level of time, effort, and commitment which is beyond any level of reasonable. Staying town as scum is hard. REALLY hard. You have to further a scum wincon without looking like you are furthering a scum wincon, and all the while you have to look sincere and have believable stances which will hold up in hindsight, something that is near-impossible to maintain.

So, scum don't want to get themselves towned up early. That sets expectations of them that they cannot, absolutely, CANNOT continue to hold the whole game. So instead, the master-level scum players. The best of the best. Have mastered the skill of moderation: they know exactly when to post, and when
not
to post. They know what to give, and what not to give. They know exactly how to stay below the top of obvtown players, and yet high enough in the hierarchy to avoid being in range of power roles that could fuck them over. (E.g. cop, vig, tracker.)

The master scum player is a masterful scum player not because it's impossible to spot them...but because it's impossible to actually lynch them. Because there's always better targets. Because there's always someone who deserves the lynch, deserves the vig, deserves the cop, more.

This is a skill Pine knows. This is a skill Nacho knows. This is a skill that we, as veteran players, mastered years ago. We can articulate this knowledge, because back in our day it was common understanding of how these things worked. Players nowadays, on the other hand, don't understand this as well. The best scum from the 2015-2016 range have an instinctive knowledge of what I'm saying here being true, but they'd never be able to explain it. They'd never attribute their victories, their skills, to this art, because they wouldn't know about it consciously. Yet on a subconscious level, they learned to harness it all the same, without actually knowing what it was.

Players like Nacho, Pine, and me, though, we can actively tell you exactly how it works. Especially me since explaining how moves work is kinda...my shtick.
HOLY SHIT, mastina looks and sounds like me playing my top-notch scumgame
What'll REALLY blow your mind is that your top-notch scumgame is just another day in the park for me as town, and that MY top-notch scumgame is in another league entirely. I already linked you to Green Day, but others? I'd encourage browsing Inorganic Chemistry (I literally cheekily scumclaimed my first post! And had the gall to claim it was a softclaim for a town role!), World of Warcraft (AP invited me to replace in, which told me he was asking me to be his scumbuddy and I said fuck yeah), Paranoia (in which I not only needed to beat the town but BEAT MY OWN SCUMTEAM TO WIN), Book of Shadows (Titus did most of the work, which is why I don't often remember this game as all I did was finish the job), Attack on Titan (a close loss, but one where I went from having ALL THREE WAGONS D1 ON SCUM at the time I replaced in to mislynching town D1), Left 4 Dead Mafia (in which I correctly predicted a cop would investigate me and rather than counterclaim the cop, I claimed scum, causing the entire town to think that the cop for the game was a fake because surely mastina wouldn't have let herself be lynched otherwise: basically the game where LYNCHING ME caused my team to win because I had specifically laid out a path to victory for my scumteam and told them to bus me), Resistance Mafia (I had an epic battle with RedCoyote at the end in lylo, which I lost), Chain of Command, Mind-Reader Mafia, this game (also modded by killerjester and also with AP where we dominated), and who can forget...the infamous Anything (fucking) Goes. There's also my first good scumgame, which I already mentioned was Good vs. Evil, Chaos vs. Law, but anything older than that's not entertaining to watch unless your definition of entertaining is watching me be HILARIOUSLY bad as scum.
tell us, why sign up to be in the pine revenge game and then offer yourself for a 1v1 on D1?
Because I know Pine and knowing that he didn't make me scum means that I know he made Nacho scum.
Also, site search "Mastin Gambit".
You'll find some pretty interesting things. (Well, presumably, if the site search actually works well enough.)
if you're town and know pine SO WELL, you would never want to give yourself up so early before being able to help your fellow townies through the game
Son, if the game can't be broken by the end of day one, I aint doing it right. Also, it's not exactly like getting lynched D1 is plan A. Getting lynched is the consequence for if I am wrong, and something I intend to happen on D2. (Not D1.) Which gives me all of D2 to prepare for giving updated thoughts and whatnot.
mastina, what do you think about my claim to have the growing ability to almost soul-read pine?
It's not shit because you're almost right on stuff, but it's still shitty because you're misapplying it and ending up coming to the wrong conclusions.
In short, your process is good enough where I'd say it's possible.
Your conclusions still need work.
also, for how much you are claiming to be able to help us with the pine-figuring, you're not, you're just piling up the mountains of WIFOM for distribution as the game goes along
Do tell.
I've laid out not only why Pine would do the things he did, and not only why I think that Nacho is scum, but also showing players for being scum outside of that.

Now granted.
I haven't EXPLAINED.
Showing's different from explaining.
But I've SHOWED you players that are scum, outside of speccing. And then gone on to explain why Pine would do what he has.
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Post Post #298 (isolation #42) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:48 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 236, drealmerz7 wrote:so you're here to help, but, we've got to do it alone?
Almost.
Think of it as...being a mentor who knows the answer, and can give it to the student, but who knows that just telling the student won't make them understand. The best way for the student to comprehend is to be given the path, and then work their way through it.

Think of it this way.

As a teacher I could tell you:
X + 1 = 4.
X + 1 - 1 = 4 - 1
X = 3.
This explains the process step by step...but the student might not accept the lesson.
Or, I could tell you:
"X + 1 = 4.
X is 3. Now, how did I know that?"

And suddenly the student is forced to work their way through it and figure that out. One teaches more than the other. And is therefore more useful than the other. So yes. I'm here to help. I will give you the answers. When you struggle, I will even give you clues as to the process. When continuing to struggle, I will make those clues continuously more explicit. But my expectation of you is always that you are meant to figure out the process on your own.

In the context of a mafia game, this is more than just me being an IC in a non-newbie game. It serves a distinct purpose beyond that, but for that, I'll leave it to you to figure out what the motivation behind my actions are. (No, it's not that as scum I'm incapable of generating my own reasoning. I'll tell you that. Now figure out what it actually is.)
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Post Post #300 (isolation #43) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:52 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 240, Pine wrote:We should hydra after this.
New hydra or attempt to break the curse of Palisade?
(That's a funny story not even Pine knows the full extent of, but which I do. Palisade has been used by five people--including Nacho--in about that number of games. Of them, the only one which went well was the third party game and even there that was only scraping by the skins of our teeth via a fakeclaim D2 even though we were basically outed as nontown long before that for faking a post restriction in a game modded by someone who had an absolute LOATHING of post restrictions which we didn't know about and some other player brought up midway through D1 after we had been using the post restriction. That, being the BEST Palisade game, can give you an idea of how bad the hydra was.)
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Post Post #302 (isolation #44) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:02 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 244, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Start pointing out how scummy shit people said
Okay!
In post 7, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:"The Fallen" Just my pride
I got tears
In post 25, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Fuck these mind games already
In post 27, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I'm actually going to argue the fact that if both of you are steller scums, he'd make sure both are town purely for the fact that he'd know you'd be at each others throats.
In post 29, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Even if it doesn't end up being mislynches, there will be tonnes of noise created by you two arguing.
In post 35, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Also I'm just going to lay it out there, as soon as ya'll say you're not with Pine, I'm just looking at it like distancing. It doesn't have to be announced that you're not on Pine's team, if town it's self-evident.
In post 38, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Hey Pine, can you do me a flavor?
In post 40, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I want a MyLo/LyLo rematch.
In post 46, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Damn..that's actually a really bad idea.
In post 59, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Hey Pine, you think we would have won the Hunger Games if it wasn't for those two strongmans?
In post 65, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:My guess is dreal and SirCakes
In post 69, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:ur memz R trash
In post 71, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Nacho/Mastin/Pine/4th scum or no? scum team and Mastin/nacho pulls an epic distancing play at the beginning of the game.
In post 74, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So mastin, what you propose is to not actually scum hunt but bob for apples?
In post 75, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:The theory doesn't make sense at all and I don't see why playing the game normal would be less beneficial than this crackpot theory you got going on.
In post 79, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
In post 55, drealmerz7 wrote:pine made a huge mistake letting nacho and prism team up I think
Did you just say these two were on the same team?
In post 86, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So you're telling me you scum read me for not having any knowledge of the history between Pine and his other compatriots and then also not agreeing with your theory when:
1) From my perspective, by doing this PoE from the start, you allow easy mislynches and disallow people to form reads on players which isn't helpful later game
2) Pine is manipulative and if I can think to make all the player's he's gone way back with as town so they WIFOM lynch each other, I'd do it and I don't doubt he would either.

I just don't think you're thinking clearly here. It doesn't matter who Pine talks to because it's NAI. You have to realize that if Pine could pick the scum team, that means he's picking the players who he thinks could work together as their own unit, regardless if Pine himself was in the game or not.
In post 93, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Prism are you talking about me?
In post 98, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I'll be honest I don't care about speculation at all
In post 100, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:If I'm this obvscum then why in the fuck would Pine pick me?
In post 131, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:No I mean it's just cute that you think I'm scum. When I tell you I got nommed for a scummy award, it's because you wouldn't even think it was possible that I was scum, if I was scum this game. Especially when I haven't played with you as town, when you can't tell the difference, you're pretty much fucked.
I think I deserve a flash wagon
At your request, the scummy shit people have said.
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Post Post #304 (isolation #45) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:07 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 265, Aeronaut wrote:So if you do something that looks like your scumgame, that's just your town game? Cool, I'll keep that in mind :igmeou:
What I was saying was pretty clear.
And it was pretty clearly not that.
So no.

This is a fine case of a misrep and one reason why Aeronaut is scum.
Mastin, tell me honestly; do you think that Pine looked at this playerlist and blatantly picked only people were "older" players?
Nope! Quite explicitly, he only chose one older player. We've got three in this game and three only: me, Fate, and Nacho. He didn't choose me. I believe he didn't choose Fate, though it's possible. I think he chose Nacho. Then camn chose Fate. And then he chose two newer players.

Namely: you, and TheRealGin-N-Tonic.
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Post Post #308 (isolation #46) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:20 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 268, Aeronaut wrote:Pine is not trying to help you win, don't you think Pine would intentionally do some non-pine things so that you'd blatantly defend his scum partners?
Funny story that.
I know Pine doesn't take mastina countermeasures.
It seems weird, I know. I know him better than any other player. Yet in the recentish times that he was scum where I was town, he did nothing to stop me even though I basically was a one-woman wrecking crew in Duck Tales among others. (Look at his iso. What in there was an attempt to counter me? Point it out.)

Taking mastina countermeasures is ridiculously hard for Pine to do, for a few reasons.
One, I am a wildcard. A very, very, very strong wildcard. The only thing Pine can predict about me is that I am unpredictable.
Two, even if he takes a countermeasure to a me from a certain time, the very way I think will serve to overcome the countermeasure eventually because I shift my thinking. I continue to change how I go about things, for better or worse, so by laying a countermeasure for me, he leaves himself open to a future-me overcoming him easier.
Three, I am a single player. Pine might know that I am a strong voice who knows him better than the others here...but he knows that to some extent, protecting his scumteam from me leaves himself vulnerable to the REST of the town. Because I think in unusual ways, because I use unorthodox methods, the countermeasures to these would be unusual and unorthodox moves which would be awkward and disjointed...allowing the town to rip his team to shreds.
Four, beyond that: as I have mentioned, Pine has largely stagnated as a player. Sure he's capable of adjusting a little bit to changes in site meta. Sure, he's capable of playing a strong game. But the Pine of now is almost identical to the Pine of six years ago in terms of playing the game. Whereas me? Me, I've continued to change with that time. So Pine attempting to deploy countermeasures to me might entirely miss the mark: he'd end up countering things the past-me would think of, but the current-me would never dream of ever thinking.

The ONLY countermeasures available to Pine that would make him not be vulnerable?
Recruiting me (which I know he didn't)...
...Or an entirely random.org distribution, which...would leave him at a disadvantage, because his three choices (being random) would allow the town to have its strong players, and leave him with only random chance in terms of synchronization. While it's not impossible he would do this, it would be incredibly improbable and time itself would help to demonstrate this.
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Post Post #309 (isolation #47) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:22 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 270, drealmerz7 wrote:also in case you were worried I don't stalk you to games, we've just happened to be in a few together
Pfft, amateur.
While I've stalked mods before, and Pine wasn't the first player I stalked, he has been one of the most consistent players for me to gamestalk before.

Embrace your inner stalker. Live it. Be the creep you always knew deep down you were. Freak your target out by your shows of love and affection: consistently tying rope around their necks and repeatedly shooting them. It's the only way to go pro.
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Post Post #310 (isolation #48) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:24 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 274, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So mastin, on a scale of 1 to wrong, how sure are you that I'm scum?
If you started at 50% chance to be scum, you're hanging at a solid 70-80%.
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Post Post #312 (isolation #49) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:29 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 276, Aeronaut wrote:And? I'm pretty sure that's what most of this game thinks, since it's you know, common sense.
Yep, I'm the only one who thinks we shouldn't let a game designed to fuck with us fuck with us, obviously. That's why nacho is the leading wagon, right?
Mafia exercise time.

This is a really fun one, I promise you.

Who here can spot the problematic nature of these two statements being placed back-to-back?

There's something very glaringly obvious in here. I could tell you at any time, but I want you to think for a sec, stretch your minds, and see if you're capable of figuring it out for yourselves.
This actually, is the definition of WIFOM. Pine wouldn't do WIFOM because he thinks we'd think he'd do WIFOM but he wouldn't do that because...etc.
Also a misrep of my point, ignoring all the important bits.
My argument isn't that we should try to play the wifom game.
My argument is that we should assume Pine making the optimal choices for his scumteam.
Because that's what he'd do, without wifom entering the picture.
So without wifom, what are Pine's perfect choices for being scum?

Players he's seen in action recently and knows the skill of, and/or players who're timeless that he knows are great no matter the gap in time.
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Post Post #313 (isolation #50) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:31 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 278, Aeronaut wrote:I'm over it mastina. If you feel like giving any scum reads this game, go ahead!
Oh, I have.
Nacho, you, TheRealGin-N-Tonic.
I've also got a readslist for that matter, but the three scumreads should suffice.
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Post Post #314 (isolation #51) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 279, Aeronaut wrote:and then doesn't vote me anyway
I've got a better vote, and normally I'd have long-since cast it (day's open and all that with me hating to not be voting), but first I gotta get caught up (since the vote should be the last thing I post in here today), and then I've gotta prepare the vote because what I have in mind is something special which I think will be appreciated when I do in fact cast the vote.
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Post Post #315 (isolation #52) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:36 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 286, Aeronaut wrote:Gin, you have any preliminary reads right now? So far I know that you disagree with mastin's spec, but what else?
Ironically enough this is the closest thing to me having reason to doubt my reads as anything else.

Know why?

This is literally textbook scum-scum interactions.
So damn textbook.
So
damn textbook.
That if anything it'd be evidence that it couldn't be true.

Butyeah. Textbook scum-scum interaction is textbook. Objectively a good lynch if nothing else.
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Post Post #318 (isolation #53) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:47 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 306, Monokuma wrote:You respond to her joke but not my
very serious accusation
???
While you're not exactly telling a joke here, I should clarify: neither was I.
You'll note that the posts I quoted? Not TheRealGin-N-Tonic's whole iso. There were some omitted. And of those that I quoted, I often cut out huge swatch of them for only small sections to remain. There was good reason for that. My method might've been a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I was dead serious in saying those were scummy posts.

Now, they're not the
only
scummy posts in the game thread.
Aeronaut has plenty of those, for instance.
But they're all of TheRealGin-N-Tonic's scummy posts. Which happen to be most of his posts.
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Post Post #323 (isolation #54) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:58 pm

Post by mastina »

Oh mastina the lumberjane,
Seen by others as utterly insane,
But it seems that as of late,
She is here to wreck Pine's game.

Oh mastina the woodcutter,
From the past she did learn.
She wanted to be a treehugger,
Now Pine'll know the wrath of her.

She knows how to fell a Pine,
With a skill that is almost divine.
When asked of her on how and why,
She said simply "Because it's fun to try".

She says the scum she had named,
Include Gin and Aeronaut, great!
But the first victim of her fury today...
VOTE: Nachomamma8.
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Post Post #474 (isolation #55) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 325, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:When I get to Mastin in my reads list, it'll explain why I'm willing to listen to her at this point
Not gonna lie.
I was thinking I could've been wrong about you.
I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, you were actually town.
I was really, really, really hoping that what you delivered here would convince me of you being town.
Because the idea of your reads process? Quite the good one.

Your execution however is lackluster, and ultimately you failed to give me anything which so much as vaguely resembled what I wanted.
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Post Post #481 (isolation #56) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:54 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 338, Secret Agent Jin wrote:What does Pine gain from saying he wants a Nacho lynch actually say?
Okay.

If I see ANYONE.
And I do mean.
ANYONE.

Who said, "hey let's not think about who Pine would pick, it's wifom!"
...And then proceeds to go, "hey, Pine posted this, what do you think it means?"

I'm lynching that motherfucker before endgame.

Now, vice-versa, my stance, is more understandable: Pine's choices before the game are a valid line of discussion...
...Whereas Pine's posting? You seem to be forgetting a fundamental factor; Pine is confirmed scum. The JOB of confirmed scum is to troll. The JOB of confirmed scum is to mislead the town, and to tell their scumbuddies what to do in private.

I can't fault someone who chooses to deny both (though that's a mistake), nor can I ridicule someone who chooses to accept both (though Pine's posting is bullshit that we all know is bullshit), but if someone held the stance that Pine's picks were wifom and we can't learn info from them and yet is trying to decipher Pine's posting, I'm going to call them out on their hypocritical double-standard.

And demand that anyone who did in fact hold that stance give a DAMN good explanation for the contradiction.

Now for me, I've laid out in very explicit detail why I think Pine's choices can be deciphered. The reason Pine's posts cannot be, however, is that Pine when choosing a scumteam is making a choice for the whole game. Pine when choosing to post is making a choice in the moment. He posts whatever the fuck he wants to post. He gets to choose for his scumteam whoever the fuck he wanted to choose. But it's BECAUSE that he has both that I have my stance:
Because he got to choose for his scumteam whoever the fuck he wanted to, Pine got to select players that he knew would be a good team, and we can figure this out.
Because he gets to post whatever the fuck he wants to, Pine gets to post nothing that is actually useful. Whatever he posts, he thinks to be harmless. Whatever he posts, he does because it was fun, funny, or whatever. Whatever he posts, he has the ability to manipulate freely and on a whim. "Oh shit, that was meant to be in the scum PT!" Yes, and so was my post where I posted that I hoped nobody in the town would see through BBMolla's choice to bus me. (Well, that was supposed to be a PM, but close enough.)
The like.

Pine can pick and choose his scumbuddies, but he can do so only once. His choices are going to be strategic. I can tell you they weren't made for fun because if he were making choices for fun I'd be on the scumteam yet I'm not.
Pine can pick and choose what he posts, and can do so at literally any time. He is quite literally confirmed scum. Engaging him expecting him to give you information is an exercise in futility. He'll give you about 10% accurate info--just enough to satiate your appetite. And then drown that accurate info out in 90% bullshit. And of the accurate info, about half of it is stuff we already know or will quickly figure out. Leaving a mere fraction of his posts as actually useful. And those useful posts? Basically impossible to distinguish between, because in the bullshit he posts, he'll give a lot of fake-useful posts meant for players to
think
they've found something when they haven't.

So my solution is simple: I'm ignoring Pine's posting for the sake of reads. Now, I'll still engage him, talk to him, but not because I expect something useful from it. Because he's my friend and I'm reminiscing about the good ol' days, essentially.

His choices, on the other hand, are an entirely different ballpark. When he made his choices, he couldn't make any bullshit up. All he could do was select a team he thought would win. Because Pine is--and here's the biggie--still playing to fulfill a scum wincon. What that means is, his posting is meant to fulfill that scum wincon by being as unhelpful as possible, whereas his picks in the pregame were meant to select the best team for the job and were therefore the most helpful thing possible.

I really wish I could convey this in a succinct form right now, but dead serious.
Pine's picks are a subject which are important, because he got to select the scum for this game.
Pine's words in this game aren't, because he gets to select what he says as confscum who would normally not talk and is only trolling when he does.
People who take the opposite stance need to die on policy alone.
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Post Post #483 (isolation #57) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:59 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 340, pisskop wrote:Pine signed up to be a spectator with posting rights. Hes a liability to his team
^Okay, this works. Pine, as known scum, posting, is bad for his team. But he is mandated to do so by the setup. However, while he is mandated to post...I don't imagine he is mandated to post in a certain fashion, i.e., giving useful info to us.

So, if he's not required to give useful info to us...and his alignment is scum...the info he gives us is...what, exactly?

Yeah. Trolling bullshit.

In contrast, Pine was involved in creating his scumteam. Him being involved is a liability, sure...but he's not mandated to share with us any aspect of his picking process. As a result, he doesn't have to give anything to us. As a result, he can make picks that he feels are able to win the game. And ultimately, that's what his choices would be. Not random bullshit, like his posting. Strategically selecting the players which Pine thinks are capable of winning the game because Pine is still technically scum-aligned.

Ergo, Pine's posting is bullshit which can be ignored.
Pine's choices weren't bullshit and thus shouldn't be ignored.
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Post Post #485 (isolation #58) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:02 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 347, Monokuma wrote:BELOVED BEAR MONOKUMA ATTEMPTS TO APPEAL TO MASTINA TO STOP ATTEMPTING TO MURDER ADORABLE POKEMON ALIGNED WITH TOWN.
Do you see me voting Aeronaut?
...No?

Yeah well that's me answering you.
I will humor your read by not voting him.
If that's not good enough, tough luck.
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Post Post #489 (isolation #59) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 348, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Hey Mastin, how long does it take you to plan for a game?
Depends. Are we talking concept, thought, or practice?

...See, my first language actually isn't English.
It's concepts. (I think this is a fairly common trait among autistic people, by the way. They may use other terms, other words to convey this, because their translation of the concept might be different than mine, but I think that they, too, understand on some level that they're not thinking words; they're thinking concepts.)

This conceptual phase is fast--
very
fast. Really, really, REALLY fast.
Making a plan for a game takes less than a second on the conceptual level.

Now, then, my brain has to translate that concept into words. This translation might be called processing. It's where we get expressions like "my mind thinks faster than I can follow". And translating this concept of a plan into words takes me anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes.

Now, writing that out? Well, I'm a fast typist (at least 80 WPM, might be much higher than that), but my hands are even slower than my brain is, so while I have the language translated approximately, it takes some time for me to lay out and detail what said plan is. This can take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour. Usually somewhere in the 15-30 minute range.
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Post Post #495 (isolation #60) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:20 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 359, drealmerz7 wrote:
VIGSHOT: MASTINA
While this would be a lovely gambit, there are a few things you need to realize.
One, this game does in fact have a vig in it. This much I already know. (How? Because I know what camn's favorite role is and contrary to what her title might imply, it sure aint the tracker.) However, it's a night-vig. Not a dayvig.
Two, I'm a night owl, especially on a Sunday. At the time you posted this, I was at work. If it were real, I'd be dead by now, so I already know it wasn't. (This can be stretched and applied to general: use it at a time a lot of the players are online and in the game. If nobody's around, it's a waste. Though, be cautious that you also make sure the MOD isn't around because the mod posting ruins the gambit.)
Three, you telegraphed it was fake way too much, and that's the worst mistake of all. A good fake-dayvig knows there's an art in making the vig look genuine: showing frustration, for instance, and then in the heat of the moment, in an argument, posting the dayvig, and then after posting it, saying stuff to the effect of "yes, that was real, and no, I have no regrets", especially the latter part, and basically...you need to really
sell
that you had a dayvig. You need to sell it so hard that the mod looks at their role PMs and wonders if maybe you misread yours, if there was a mistake, if maybe she wasn't clear.

So while a lovely idea, you lack the experience to pull off a proper fake-dayvig.

Also, some handy hints for what you need when it comes to these: when you pull a fakeclaim as a gambit, you need to have a clear idea of what you're going to accomplish, and it needs to have a clear idea of what you accomplish no matter the outcome. If you entirely base the gain off of outcomes that never materialize, it's a waste. If you base your premise off of something which is false, then you won't gain what you were hoping to because your premise was false.

This is why I plan my actions out. I have clear ideas of what I'll gain no matter what. If I'm right on my read. If I'm wrong on my read. If the gambit goes this way. Or the gambit goes another way. I also think out nonbinary solutions, because often thinking that a gambit will result in a binary action backfires when it turns out the gambit wasn't nearly as binary as you assumed.
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Post Post #498 (isolation #61) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:26 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 370, SirCakez wrote:It looks genuine as hell. Unless Real Gin has a history of AtE as scum.
Son, if you call that TheRealGin-N-Tonic posting AtE, you've got a LOT of learning to do.

There was no AtE in there and there was nothing in there that could even be considered genuine. Like, there was nothing in there which you could say was a case of "is this fake or is this real?", it was just a post that was...a post. A scummy post, but a post all the same.
What makes my interactions with mastin scummy as opposed to drealz's?
Well for a start, this question. Aeronaut is right in the regard that you are scummy and drealmerz isn't. It's just that you're not actually scum.
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Post Post #501 (isolation #62) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:31 pm

Post by mastina »

In [url=http://mafiacum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8703334#p8703334]post 388[/url], Vaxkiller wrote:Dreals talking to pine makes me thing he is trying way to hard to make it seem like somthing only someone who is town would ahve the balls to do... but it just comes off scummy.
drealmerz's talking to Pine is an example of a player who both feels that Pine's picks are important and his posting is important.
His model is actually one of the only right ways to deal with it. Now, granted. He's wrong on some fundamental assumptions. I also continue to believe that his decision to read Pine is one of those ways. But if you're gonna be wrong. You should do it with
style
. With good format and technique, and drealmerz has that flair like nobody else.
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Post Post #503 (isolation #63) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:38 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 391, drealmerz7 wrote:except for you clearing cakez as town...
I mean I think SirCakez is town anyway but it sure as fuck wasn't for that.

Pine literally stole the "oh shit that was meant for the scum PT, nothing to see here, I can bury this and people will ignore it" from me. This post more specifically, 2188, and the followthrough, 2190.

(Like, the concept of being confscum? This is how I handled it. Incidentally, that was the game which got me to switch from my Zorbak avvy to my trolol avvy.)
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Post Post #505 (isolation #64) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:41 pm

Post by mastina »

(And this seems relevant to this game:
mastin2 wrote:Alternatively, the game could involve taking a shot every time someone quotes someone having quoted my D2 posting, and they simply go, "STOP USING TROLLING FROM CONFSCUM AS VALID EVIDENCE!".
Or if you can really hold your liquor, both.
If I was into alcohol I'd be utterly smashed by now.)
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Post Post #512 (isolation #65) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:55 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 393, Nachomamma8 wrote:I will be dropping a couple beautiful bombs of wisdom on some select people for you to enjoy in anticipation of my return.
AKA, "mastina, no." :P
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Post Post #513 (isolation #66) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:58 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 394, Nachomamma8 wrote:I know there's a Nacho is scum devil sitting on your shoulder and constantly whispering in your ear but please silence him long enough to give me a proper chance so that you and I can break the game and teach Pine some respect for deciding that he could win without drafting either of us in his corner.
Regardless of your alignment it's tempting to say "fuck that" and continue pressing you specifically for the reactions.
Regardless of your alignment, it feels like a mistake to stop pushing you, because I feel I'd gain more by keeping the pressure on you.
Regardless of your alignment, this is a stupid idea.
But fuckit.
Sure, I'll give you your space.

VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic.
I'll give you your space, and won't even make commentary on your alignment.
This is still a bad idea though.
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Post Post #514 (isolation #67) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:01 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 413, Monokuma wrote:Explain why mastina is town from your point of view this early on in the game.
I'm town because if he scumread me he knows it'd be a scumclaim. :P
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Post Post #523 (isolation #68) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:06 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 415, drealmerz7 wrote:I'm wondering if mastina burnt herself towntelling at the rate she did and now the bucket is empty
Actually not exactly wrong--there's the risk of suffering from burnout this game if I'm not careful about how I handle it.

But the real secret to my bursts of activity is selective lurking.
Selective lurking allows me to clear my mind and formulate thoughts faster and better than I otherwise would.

As scum, it keeps me from getting in trouble.
As town, it keeps me from causing trouble to the town.

It's basically a way of stepping back and recognizing there's a time to be active and a time to be inactive, a time where me being in the spotlight is good, and a time where me being in the spotlight is detrimental. I kinda sent a PM to camn where I explained the specifics of that concept, but I'd prefer not to share while the game's still so early.
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Post Post #525 (isolation #69) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:07 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 419, Aeronaut wrote:
In post 372, SirCakez wrote:please let that dayvig shot be real
Ok, can you lay out what you actually think is scum about mastina? She's being silly, but there's definitely no scum motivation in it.
:scumposting:
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Post Post #531 (isolation #70) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:10 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 422, Aeronaut wrote:So one of BTD6 is probably scum, and one is probably town. Curious how mastina reacts to this, since she's the all-powerful pine-whisperer.
I'd say you're full of shit, and think it's scum shit not town shit.
I feel as if nacho!scum could have very easily pushed the opposite narrative as mastina, and tried to push it back on them instead of doing what he's doing here and trying to pull them out of their fixation and onto actual scum hunting. E.g Nacho is p clearly town in this post.
That would've been a scumclaim from Nacho, so no. He's not clearly town for the post.
What is he?

Well I just gave my word to not say.
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Post Post #532 (isolation #71) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:10 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 426, Aeronaut wrote:@BTD6 Why, in your own words, do you think Mastina's actions are scum-motivated?
(Still scumposting.)
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Post Post #533 (isolation #72) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:12 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 433, Vaxkiller wrote:@mastina give a tldr on some of these, good lord.
Nothing you linked to needs a tl;dr. You either read the whole thing and recognize its game relevancy, or you skip it and assume it's not.
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Post Post #536 (isolation #73) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:15 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 446, Monokuma wrote:CONGRATULATIONS GIN, FATE, AND SIRCAKEZ. YOU'VE WON THE RIGHT TO EAT ROPE TODAY!!!
Huh. I never knew it was possible to be perfectly 50% accurate on three names, but you've named 1.5/3 scum here. Shows me what I know.
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Post Post #542 (isolation #74) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:23 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 464, SirCakez wrote:Her "theory" of who Pine picked is pointless and scummy because for all we know, Pine RNGed his picks.
Keep telling yourself that.

Doesn't make it any less true.
I explained about as explicitly as possible WHY Pine would make strategic picks: he's going to make a scumteam he knows is good, that works well together as a team.
He is NOT going to RNG the scumteam because that goes against the fucking point of the game. It violates it in spirit, and it violates it in practice thanks to how unreliable it is. Pine didn't make picks for fun. (If he did I'd be scum.) Pine wouldn't discard the mechanic by going random. Pine would pick a team he thought would win the game. The ONLY thing in question is what defines "what he thought would win the game".

And while I might not know Pine enough to predict him perfectly...I've got a pretty damn reliable record there. (Yes I didn't early-on, but again: I got better, he stayed about the same.) He's not going to pick strangers. He's going to pick people he knows will work as a team.
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Post Post #546 (isolation #75) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:28 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 484, drealmerz7 wrote:are you sure you're not me posting from an alternate reality?
Actually I'm you from the future, after having lived a full life of wondrous experiences.

I'm here to tell you that your scumread on the slot I am occupying is wrong, and that when it flips town you'll have spent time suboptimally. While it won't exactly have been a waste, it's not what you were looking for, so you should shift your focus to another slot.
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Post Post #548 (isolation #76) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:29 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 488, Pine wrote:I have dropped some entirely valid hints though!
I have zero doubts of this!

I also recognize Schmuck Bait when I see it!
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Post Post #550 (isolation #77) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:31 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 492, drealmerz7 wrote:you excite me, mastina
You'd excite me if it weren't for the fact you're on my side.
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Post Post #556 (isolation #78) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:35 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 493, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Mastin, if being able to think and be able to answer your own questions like that was how it was 4 years ago, boy oh boy did I miss out :(
If you think I'm good, you have no idea. I'm literally trash compared to others in that regard.

No seriously I was a trash-tier player. In part because my explanations compared to others really sucked.

But yes. I miss the days where I was considered incompetent because in those days, I had a solid strive to improve: everyone, literally
everyone
, was better than I was, so I had nowhere to go but up.

Nowadays it's constantly a struggle to keep myself from plummeting down.
The remnants of the oldguard will firmly tell you, "it is a sad, sad day when mastina is considered the standard of excellence in a game".
I don't disagree with them.
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Post Post #560 (isolation #79) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:41 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 499, drealmerz7 wrote:I figured there is a vig. in the game and I was aware of such when I did it
The problem is: I knew there was a vig in the game, and you knew there was a vig in the game.
What's to stop the scum, especially Pine, from knowing there is a vig in the game?
...Yeah. They already knew it wasn't real.

You want a
real
gambit?

Try this one on for size:
I have a role which can confirm me as town
.
This is a wifom-post: I may be telling the truth, or I could be fakeclaiming town, or I could be bullshitting scum.
Now THERE'S a gambit for ya. What am I accomplishing with this claim? Is it real, or is it fake?

This is FAR superior to a fake-dayvig claim.
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Post Post #562 (isolation #80) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:44 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 504, Monokuma wrote:ngl drealz' infatuation with mastina is pretty adorbs.
It is, but you get used to it. I've had this sort of bonding experience before on both ends: being the one doing it and being the one receiving it.

What drealmerz will eventually realize is that the infatuation is his subconscious screaming "you moron, why aren't you working together?", but that might not come until after one of us are dead. Alas.
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Post Post #563 (isolation #81) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:48 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 507, Monokuma wrote:But Pine's pre-game choices, while something to be considered, aren't going to solve you the game on your own. They shouldn't be a basis, they should be a supplement to standard scumhunting.
I mean sorry to disappoint you since you said you were looking forward to an argument, but...if you're looking forward to having an argument with me, don't say something that I agree with you on. Because this is exactly what I've been saying?

If you're so dead-set about getting into an argument with me though, we can always discuss Aeronaut! :P
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Post Post #564 (isolation #82) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:01 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 516, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:For a top-tier player that's pretty fucked.
I don't recall saying I was a top-tier player. If I did, I do apologize for the miscommunication on my end.

While I'm better than most of the shit on mafiascum right now, it's only because most of the shit on mafiascum right now is...shitty. I've gotten better, yes, but the quality of my play has comparatively stagnated ever since the people who were better than me stopped playing. It's not that I got up to their level. They simply stopped, and the newer players weren't as good as them.

Now granted. I'm still pushing myself. I still evolve. I still change. I still improve. I still better myself with every game. But if you compare the amount of improvements I make these days to the amount of improvement I was making four, five years ago, it's no contest at all. The me from back then might've been much worse, but also improved much faster than the me of now. The me of now still improves, but the people I looked up to, the people I tried to aspire to be more like, just didn't play anymore so...I lost my reference pool, so to speak.

My counselor is fond of the metaphor, room of skinny people vs room of fat people. In the room of skinny people, a person might think, "I'm fat!" and try to lose weight: try to better themselves. In the room of fat people, that same person might think, "Hey, I'm not so bad compared to these guys", and do nothing about their weight. While it's not quite apt (using the metaphor, I'd still be trying to manage my weight even in the room of fat people), it gets the point across well enough; I'm not a top-tier player.

I'm the girl you come to, in order to learn. To better yourself. I'll always have words of wisdom, theory talk, to give to you, but it's in a Waver Velvet kind of way: the student will surpass the master if they actually take the time to bother to learn. People who once considered me better than them, I now call either my equals or my superiors, and it's because of this effect. I'm not a top-tier player, but I can create players who
are
top-tier.
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Post Post #565 (isolation #83) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:04 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 530, drealmerz7 wrote:pine, do you like candies? hard candies
Do you know what the best hard candy is?

Halls®.
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Post Post #566 (isolation #84) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:05 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 537, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Where the hell does .5 come from?
The answer lies in my posts~
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Post Post #568 (isolation #85) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:10 pm

Post by mastina »

ONE OF: Fate/Nachomamma
drealmerz
Prism
Btd6_maker
SirCakez
Vaxkiller
pisskop
Monokuma
Secret Agent Jin
The RealGin-N-Tonic
Aeronaut
THE OTHER OF: Nachomamma/Fate

What's this?
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Post Post #637 (isolation #86) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:01 am

Post by mastina »

In post 569, Pine wrote:Eww.
Hey.
Don't go dissin' on mah medicine.

When you're sick for a solid six months, soon you learn very quickly to appreciate the taste of a good cough drop. Back in those days, I was a pack-a-day cough drop user. Each drop lasted about 20 mins, and then I'd pop a new one into my mouth. Kept me from being miserable and also helped hide that I was constantly sick. People knew I got sick, but they never knew that I never stopped being sick, and it was thanks to the magic of these amazing lil' hard candies.
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Post Post #638 (isolation #87) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:03 am

Post by mastina »

In post 574, Pine wrote:Mastina, pick a scum and make a case for me. I'm bored.
You want a case?
I'll give you three!
Here's my case on TheRealGin-N-Tonic.
Here's my case on Aeronaut.
And here's my case on Nacho!
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Post Post #642 (isolation #88) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:29 am

Post by mastina »

In post 589, SirCakez wrote:This is definitely AtE. He's cursing, asking to be wagoned, mentioning a scummy award.
Okay. One: cursing is not a sign of AtE. You can fucking curse all damn day and not have a lick of emotion behind it. Two, there was only one curse word in there. And three, said curse word? Not even used in a manner that is ever emotional.
You NEVER say "fucked" when you're emotional.
Sure, you can say fucking as an emotion.
Sure, you can say fuck as an emotion. (Fuck you, for instance.)
But fucked? No. Fucked is used in either two connotations: the literal sense of fornication, or the metaphorical sense of being screwed. "I'm fucked". "You're fucked". And those terms? Usually used in a lighthearted manner, the polar OPPOSITE of real AtE. You don't see people saying "we're fucked" and saying it as an emotional outcry. Maybe there's dread in it, but most commonly, it's an expression of that lighthearted "we're doomed", and nothing more. Which, you know, is self-evident. Because let's see the context of the fuck-bomb dropped:
when you can't tell the difference, you're pretty much fucked.
There's humor in there. HUMOR. Not emotion. Humorously declaring that if we can't tell the difference, WE are fucked. Not him, WE. There's rules when it comes to cursing. There's a whole language, a whole fucking language, designating what a curse word means and the context behind a curse word. A curse word can add humor, it can add vulgarity, or it can add drama. This one was the former two, but not the latter one, and the drama is what cursing as AtE actually is.

Oh and four: mentioning a Scummy nomination is not ranting. It's bragging. You're not doing AtE if you're bragging. Pride isn't an emotional outcry. Ranting, based on anger, would be. But there's not so much as a fucking HINT of anger in the post. It's empty. Hollow. Shallow. Which brings me to...

Five: That request to be wagoned? Yeah that was bullshit.
If TheRealGin-N-Tonic actually wanted to be wagoned, know what he'd do? He'd self-vote the moment votes were valid. He'd go on a crusade to get wagoned. He'd point out how he was serious, and he'd make it a big deal. Do you know what we got from him instead?
In post 275, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Also I asked for a flashwagon on me and then people vote you so like, what gives?
This. That's it. Nothing more on the subject at all. It's as if...oh yeah. The original request was empty and hollow, because TheRealGin-N-Tonic wasn't actually interested in wagoning himself. He just said something which looked good, but when analyzed, had nothing actually good backing it.

Now fuck off about your bullshit definition of AtE because TheRealGin-N-Tonic's post there was about as far away from AtE as you can get.
even assuming Pine didn't RNG his picks, how would you know whether he tried to WIFOM the playerlist with his picks or not if you were town?
Oh gee, it's almost as if I EXPLAINED this already! It's not like I haven't clarified this ten times already.
But since you apparently weren't listening those nine other times, let me educate you on the subject.

There's a binary choice here. BINARY. Either it is, or it isn't.
Pine either made wifom picks, or he did not.
Now, no matter which he choice, there's the wifom game. We have to ask: did he make optimal choices, or did he try to throw us off?
Yet everyone is crying wifom to this whole process. They insist that because we can't determine which he decided to go for, the process of trying is therefore useless.
If people assume that Pine's picks cannot be reliably determined, then Pine has no incentive to make wifomy picks because nobody will believe he would make those blatant choices because people will cry wifom to the idea.
As a result, Pine is going to make the choices that are most optimal: he's not going to choose players for wifom. He's going to choose the players he thinks will make the best team. As a result, his choices can be figured out, if people stop being morons and crying out wifom to the idea.

It's like nightkill analysis.
Scum have the power to kill a player who blatantly points to the scum via NKA, or making a wifom kill to misdirect the town.
People will assume that because of the latter, NKA is therefore useless.
As a result of people discarding NKA, scum can make the nightkill on a player who blatantly points to who the scum are via NKA...
...Because the town will write it off as wifom.

When, newsflash. Scumteams don't actually kill players off of wifom. It's stupid, because nobody actually does NKA. So when a scumteam kills a player off of wifom, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Same exact principle applies here.
Pine had the power to select a team which was blatant via basic Pine knowledge. (And keep in mind I have FAR FUCKING MORE than just basic Pine knowledge.) Alternatively, Pine had the option of making wifom picks for the scumteam, to misdirect the town.
People will assume that because of the latter, Pine's picks are therefore meaningless.
As a result of people discarding Pine's picks, he could make whatever the fuck he wanted to in terms of picks, no matter how blatantly obvious the picks would be...
...Because the town will write it off as wifom.

It's really not that fucking hard to understand.
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Post Post #649 (isolation #89) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:48 am

Post by mastina »

In post 607, Aeronaut wrote:Ok, do
you
see a scum motivation behind your play today? Furthermore, do you understand why I'm asking people that question?
Yes, in fact I do see the scum motivation behind my play today. In fact, a large portion of my play this game I'm plagiarizing from my scumgame. Now there were tweaks involved to make it my towngame, of course, but a large portion of my posting is based upon my scumgame, and as a result, it is RIDICULOUSLY easy for me to see my posts as scum. Sometimes, I have to remind myself that I am in fact supposed to be playing a towngame, here.

So as a result: no, I do not see a town reason for you to be asking that question. I can see a reason to ask it as scum, but I see no reason for you to ask it as town.
I actually don't see how it would be a scum claim from his perspective. I know there's no way I could possibly comprehend the narrative you have going on in your head, but please try.
Okay. Let me put it to you this way. I have more games with Nacho than any other player on the site. ANY other player on the site. Even Pine. I have hydraed with Nacho more than any other player on the site. We've seen countless games as Calcifer, and one as Palisade. He has seen me as town more than any other player, both himself as town and with him as scum. He has seen me as scum more than any other player, both himself as scum and when he is town.

While his accuracy isn't quite on the zMuffinman/AngryPidgeon level, he's second only to them in terms of having an accurate read on me in games. He and I have always, on some fundamental level, just had a way of getting the other. We hydra extremely well together, work better as a team than any other player. Even AngryPidgeon, the guy who replaced Pine as my frenemy after Pine left, the guy who I have an insanely high number of games playing with, can't work as well with me as I can work with Nacho. We have a soul link of sorts. We might not hold the power to perfectly read each other...

...But in the rare instances where he would have a scumread on me, he'd never willingly admit it. He'd keep it to himself. He'd keep it private, pondering on it. He'd hope to lure me in to a trap, or to be proven wrong, or any other various reason. He wouldn't share it, because if he did, then if he's wrong he'd lose his chance to work with me and if he's right then he'd lose his chance to ensnare, to trap, me. So even if he did have a wrong scumread on me, he wouldn't share it.

Furthermore, Nacho also knows of our extensive history. He knows how I view his play. He knows all of the above is how I view him. He either has a correct read on me, or is faking having a correct read on me, because he knows that if he took the alternative route, I'd campaign HARD to lynch him, especially post-Tales of You. In that game, Nacho started as a top-tier townread. (Not because of his half, I'd like to point out. His hydra partner, bork, was ridiculously good at being obvtown even as scum and Nacho never would've been top-tier otherwise.)

The
moment
he started pushing me, I
knew
he was scum. That wasn't some random OMGUS on my part. That wasn't some random revelation on my part. I'm extremely self-conscious of my play. I know when I am being obvtown. I also know, furthermore, when I am being obvtown to the players who know me. I knew I was obvtown in that game to those who knew me. And I knew, then, that because Nacho wasn't seeing I was obvtown, he was scum. I was right.

Same thing applies here, and the same rule is in effect here. I might not be obvtown to everyone, but to anyone who knows me, I most certainly am. Nacho knows this. So if Nacho were to scumread me...it would be a flat-out scumclaim.
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Post Post #651 (isolation #90) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:53 am

Post by mastina »

In post 640, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Okay that's funny and all, but for a designated IC of the forums, I'd expect you to actually make a case instead of funny links and gags.
When I feel like pushing for a player to be lynched, I can unleash a bombardment on them for why I am pushing for that player to be lynched.

I already set the groundwork, mind you, for a few players. Namely, you and Aeronaut. I haven't cased on either of you because I honestly don't feel like lynching you yet. I'm voting you, and you're the lead wagon. If you so happened to get lynched without me pushing you hard, oh well, it happened. I'm not gonna stop the wagon.

But when I feel like making a wagon on someone...you'll know I feel like making a wagon on someone.
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Post Post #654 (isolation #91) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:04 am

Post by mastina »

In post 644, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:what's to stop him from using his scum picks to do his manipulation for him?
Explicitly they have.
This is self-evident by the thread.
If I am wrong on my townreads, then Pine made good picks in that regard because my townreads look town to me and me being wrong on them means I was successfully manipulated by them. (Keep in mind my townreads aren't based on Pine's picks, but on their play. Pine's picks just augment my suspicions.)
If I am right about my scumreads, then Pine made good picks in that regard because my scumreads are pulling stunts which to me are ridiculously manipulative and a large part of the basis behind my scumread. (For instance, our bipolar bear friend is townreading Aeronaut hard, for stuff that to me looks like Aeronaut posting shit meant to manipulate people like them into townreading him.)

Regardless of whether I am right, or wrong, Pine made picks who are good at manipulation.
If I am wrong, Pine made picks who hid their manipulation well, while making it look like they are town as a result of their manipulation.
If I am right, Pine made picks who I saw through their manipulation, but they still were in fact doing manipulation. I just saw through it.

Of course, realistically it's going to be a bit of column A and a bit of column B, but while I do indeed have thoughts on that, I'm momentarily keeping them to myself for the most part.
Pine uses SirCakes with giving the instructions to pocket me by giving me an early town read (by the way I'll admit I did like Cakes after he made that post, so in a sense it did work), which then will allow his scum team to have a town ally later down the road?
The problem with this is that while SirCakez might be a strong scum player in theory, in practice given this playerlist, he's not endgame material. Aside from Pine not having SirCakez experience that I could track down (Pine's picks), there's also SirCakez's play this game.

Everything SirCakez is doing is ridiculously scummy. And not scummy in a subtle way. Scummy in a very, very, very blatantly obvious way. So obvious, literally every player in the game pretty much can see why SirCakez could be scum, and a fair number of them do in fact think he's actually scum. But what SirCakez is doing isn't furthering a scum agenda. So he's not actually scum. When it comes to SirCakez, if he looks good but his posts look like they serve a scum agenda, he's scum. This game, he looks bad and there's no visible scum agenda, so he's town.
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Post Post #655 (isolation #92) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:09 am

Post by mastina »

In post 648, SirCakez wrote:Maybe yeah Pine predicted that people would be paranoid and then make "optimal picks" for his team. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict that (like you've been doing) and then make WIFOMy picks instead. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict THAT and went with the optimal picks instead.
etc
etc
etc
...And given this endless cycle which town players have no way of thinking about...
...Pine goes with the most obvious picks because it's what serves him best. It's what gives him the strongest team.

And I know this because I fucking know Pine. He's not going to waste the potential of this game on some random shitty picks. He's going to stack his team as much as he can possibly stack his team.

I'm saying ignore wifom.
Ignore the possibility of Pine choosing wifom picks.
And just go with what makes the most sense for Pine to pick.
DISCARDING WIFOM ENTIRELY. Who does Pine pick?
And that's what I'm saying we should do, because yes Pine doesn't give a damn about being blatantly obvious with scumpicks.
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Post Post #656 (isolation #93) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:10 am

Post by mastina »

By the way, not game-related, but I was wondering what people thought about my avatar change. It's the same character, Ruby, just at a chronologically much later date in the comic.

On the one hand, the old avatar was in color, and had a friendly message attached to it. ("Hello.") But it was also incredibly sloppy and visibly the work of an amateur.

On the other hand, this new avatar is much much better looking, but it's visibly black-and-white, and visibly a pencilled work that has been scanned, which automatically makes it not be very professional. It also lacks the warm message.

By now everyone's had a chance to see my old avvy, so I'm looking for feedback on which would be better: sloppy old color happy, or refined new black-and-white pencil.
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Post Post #663 (isolation #94) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:34 am

Post by mastina »

In post 659, Fate wrote:Your old avatar was decent Mastina. If this one was in color I agree itd be superior
Hmm, not actually impossible for me to do, though it'd be difficult not to fuck the coloring process up. The pencils really really really put in a lot of detail for instance in the hair. And eyes. And lips. And even background. (I used sketchbook paper which is designed for drawing, rather than printer paper, so it's higher quality than a normal drawing.) Might be able to replicate the effect with an airbrush, I'll have to try it out to see.
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Post Post #664 (isolation #95) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:38 am

Post by mastina »

In post 660, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So why would he pick me?
If we assume Pine made picks without wifom, if we assume Pine's picks were optimal choices that he knows work well together as a team?

Oh, I dunno.
In post 57, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Hey Mastin fun fact, I got a nom for a team scum game with Pine in my first game on this site.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69088 (I'm blawb who signed under /Gin and then took over the hydra D2)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69768 This time I'm IC and Pine was scum, Pine won
In post 86, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:You have to realize that if Pine could pick the scum team, that means he's picking the players who he thinks could work together as their own unit, regardless if Pine himself was in the game or not.
In post 131, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:When I tell you I got nommed for a scummy award, it's because you wouldn't even think it was possible that I was scum, if I was scum this game.
...Call it a hunch?
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Post Post #732 (isolation #96) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 666, BTD6_maker wrote:Wouldn't this be using the "too scummy to be scum" fallacy?
No, your reading comprehension needs some work.
SirCakez isn't town because he's too scummy to be scum.
SirCakez is town because while his actions are scummy, there's no reason for them to come from scum.
Sometimes, scummy players are just actually scum. But when so, their scummy posting has scum reasoning attached to it. SirCakez lacks that.
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Post Post #733 (isolation #97) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:39 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 669, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Okay, now the next step in this process, how does telling you all that help push a scum agenda?
There are three (not mutually exclusive, in fact they're pretty inclusive) reasons why you would post those things:
-Pride: you have already admitted that you take great amounts in your scumgame, so boasting about it even as you are playing it is not something you are above doing.
-Arrogance: you don't think talking about your scumgame can make a player catch you in your scumgame, because you assume players will miss the important parts and go on a wild goose chase, ignoring the actually telling hints you give. In short, you can explain to the town exactly what you are doing, and they won't see you doing it, at least that's your assumption.
-Pragmatism, and the actual game advantage to have done so. Rather than being part of your ego as the above two are, this one serves to grant you an in-game advantage. The things you have shared and talked about are not things which only you could give. Anyone who bothered to do their research could dig up the evidence you yourself provide. Anyone could make the points you yourself have made. But by having made the points, by having offered the research, you'd hope that would make you look town. And failing that? If people didn't assume you looked town, you can force the issue...by asking the question you just did, right here and now.
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Post Post #734 (isolation #98) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:43 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 670, Monokuma wrote:Oh?
Can confirm. The difference between me knowing a player is town and "knowing" a player is town is zilch when it comes to casing. The telling part isn't so much in what I say (which would be the same), but how much I want to say it: there's different attitudes as town and as scum behind it. As scum, my attitude is that I don't actually care, or even want that mislynch to go through. As town, I might be apathetic enough to let the lynch go through (which is similar to scum), or I might want the lynch to go through partially out of spite so that I get to claim "I told you so" (which is vaguely similar to scum), or I might show incredible frustration and fight every step of the way (which isn't scum).

The actual words I say might not change much, if at all. The tone driving them, the attitude behind my push, will, depending on my mood and my alignment.
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Post Post #735 (isolation #99) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:45 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 675, Monokuma wrote:so we figured there must be SOMETHING you saw, some super amazing secret magic way of reading mastina and you're holding out on us.
I mean, I can tell you the secret to reading me, but that'd spoil Nacho's chance to do the same properly.
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Post Post #737 (isolation #100) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:02 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 676, Nachomamma8 wrote:This assumes that Pine wasn't smart enough to do some cursory research on the people who could be parts of his dream team, and I find that to be a pretty solidly terrible assumption to make.
Cursory research is bullshit.
Pine's not going to trust some vague secondhand glance at a game he wasn't a part of. He'd see a player as town a few times--okay. He'd see a player as scum maybe once. Okay. Now how does he gauge how useful that information is? Not being in there as things developed, his sense of context is lost. Things which were utterly brilliant in the game can come across as unimportant to a skim view. Vice-versa: things which can come across as utterly brilliant could have been the moves which condemned the scumteam to death, and a brief look at the games of those players wouldn't cut it.

If it was one or two players, maybe Pine would have the time and energy to go through this.

But with nearly half of the playerlist as unknowns to Pine, there's no way that Pine would manage it enough to form a dream team with the best of those members on it. Not enough time, too much effort, and nothing to be gained short of putting that much effort in. If Pine built his team from second-rate information, it'd be a sub-optimal team, and he knows that, because the second-rate information was...second-rate.

Pine's going to trust his own personal experience over anything else. And thus, while Pine's picks are not a foolproof scumhunting method, they are effective at augmenting the scumhunting.
Of the five (plus Monokuma) names that I named, after all, who would Pine choose? BTD6? No. Prism? Total unknown to me and presumably Pine as well. (Also, very obviously town this game, so if Prism is scum then they have a VERY good career ahead of them because it doesn't show at all.) SirCakez? Viable in theory, but in this game I can tell on read alone the answer is no and that SirCakez is town. That basically leaves you with pisskop, Vaxkiller, and Monokuma from the list of Pine's unknowns. Vaxkiller is not a strong player, and I'd rule him out for the same reasons I'd rule BTD6 out; there's nothing about him which is appealing as a scumteam member.
The only choices I can see are pisskop and Monokuma. I don't think Monokuma is scum. So that leaves, from my list, a grand total of one possible scum candidate: pisskop.

I think I was right to have said what I did. While it's not impossible Pine drew a member from there, it is incredibly improbable.
So the only role that we could be playing against is one that Pine is intimately familiar with?
Pretty much, yeah. Pine's first role for classical, easy scum role is Godfather. His second thought is Roleblocker. All those other common, fancy scum roles we know of today? Not his first thought.
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Post Post #738 (isolation #101) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:06 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 678, SirCakez wrote:....we're going in circles
Yes, and it's a closed circle, comprised of two binaries:
Pine either made wifom picks, or optimal picks. Binary number one.
We can either choose to enter the wifom game and try to figure out the above, or we can ignore the wifom game altogether. Binary number two.

If we enter the wifom game and try to figure out the first binary, I am telling you that Pine made the optimal picks.
If we choose to ignore the wifom game altogether, then I am telling you to assume Pine made the optimal picks, because that's what fucking ignoring the wifom game entails.

You can't go "but Pine could have picked the wifom picks!" without entering into the wifom game.
Ignoring the wifom game is therefore assuming...Pine picked the optimal picks.
But if you choose to enter into the wifom game...I am telling you the answer is Pine picked the optimal picks rather than the wifom picks.

So regardless of whether you enter into the wifom game, or whether you ignore the wifom game...the answer here is to assume...Pine picked the optimal choices.

Really not that hard to understand.
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Post Post #739 (isolation #102) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 680, Nachomamma8 wrote:...and you'll have pushed the game to LyLo in order to lynch one scum for no information. Back in my day, we would have called this a "shit ass plan".
Not no information. The information of all the wagons on the flipped town versus the flipped scum, the resistances, and the sheeps, and finding which is scummy and which is not. Basic stuff like that.

Granted, only a 50% chance I personally would be alive to do this, but people would attempt it without me anyway. (I just happen to think I'd stand a better chance of success than others.)
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Post Post #740 (isolation #103) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:13 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 688, Pine wrote:Mastina, your new avatar is great. Don't ruin it with color.
Advice of yours I might actually take.
Compare:
ImageImageImage
(Old avvy there for comparison.)
Or if you'd prefer, the full sketch vs. the full drawing.

I don't think the colors turned out as well as I was hoping. I love the hair, and the background's fine, but otherwise the coloring isn't quite as good as it should be in my opinion.
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Post Post #741 (isolation #104) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:17 pm

Post by mastina »

(Yes, that's the same character. Her eyes, hair, and even skin color do in fact change. Because magical stuff, yo.)
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Post Post #742 (isolation #105) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:25 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 728, Pine wrote:I directed my minions to focus fire.
If you want to talk about things Pine has said which are probably true, this is one of them. I can in fact see Pine making a comment to this effect in the scum PT, telling his team to vote together, if for no other reason than to throw VCA off.

Now, just because he said it doesn't mean his team actually followed through and did it.
And just because he said it doesn't mean he said it recently.
Given those factors, him saying it is
probably
useless to us. (Probably.) All the same it'd be an instance of him telling the truth disguised as a lie, but which if considered the truth wouldn't actually harm his team.
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Post Post #743 (isolation #106) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:27 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 731, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:why is it that it took one post from Nacho to erase all of that hard work she presented as to why Nacho=scum?
Because he asked me nicely.

No joke.

He asked me nicely, and I politely obliged. It's a temporary thing though.
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Post Post #745 (isolation #107) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:28 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 736, SirCakez wrote:When did mastina start townreading Nacho Gin?
A good question! When
did
I start townreading Nacho? I'd love to hear the class's thoughts on this!
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Post Post #748 (isolation #108) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:34 pm

Post by mastina »

ONE OF: Fate/Nachomamma
drealmerz
Prism
SirCakez
BTD6_maker
Vaxkiller
Monokuma
Aristophanes
Secret Agent Jin
The RealGin-N-Tonic
THE OTHER OF: Nachomamma/Fate
Aeronaut

Honestly this is better.
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Post Post #773 (isolation #109) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:24 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 750, Nachomamma8 wrote:oh sweet jesus both of you knuckleheads are town
Legit laughed at this.
Like, hard laughed at this.

That being said, kinda surprised Nacho hasn't realized what I'm doing right now.
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Post Post #775 (isolation #110) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:31 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 753, Pine wrote:Mastina, I'm disappointed. Two possible strategies for drafting? Is that all you think of me, or is it all you could come up with yourself?
Of course there are hundreds of strategies for drafting.

But those strategies can be generalized to a level.
And the ultimate generalization is: wifom, or no wifom?
Wifom, or going for strategic picks?

All other strategies for picks fall into one of those two categories.
There's different types of wifom strategies: RNGing the entire pick process. Choosing players you think the town thinks would never think you'd pick. The like.
There's different types of optimal strategies: denying town players. Choosing individual scum players who are strong individually. Choosing players that're scum and have a record of working well together. Choosing scum who are unlikely to be caught. The like.
It's not impossible to hybridize the two...but that, itself, is a strategic pick. Nabbing a couple of players which fulfill your team requirements, and then having your third be something entirely random, for instance. But even there, certain generalities are going to be in place. Certain things are going to be more likely than others.

And that falls under the wifom-or-not binary, to which I say the latter is more probable for the most possibilities.

Certain players fulfill requirements for being scum across multiple criteria.
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Post Post #776 (isolation #111) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 761, Fate wrote:I might be able to break this PR on those grounds
I mean.
If we want to talk about breaking promises to the bear...
...There's one in particular I can break.

VOTE: Aeronaut.
But that's as good as you get from me.
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Post Post #777 (isolation #112) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:40 pm

Post by mastina »

I mean honestly I'd prefer my vote to still be on TheRealGin-N-Tonic because they haven't satisfied my needs yet for calling them town and there's lots of pressure on them and that pressure is good and mostly town and something I don't hate and by going off the wagon I weaken it and that's not something bad because a Gin lynch would in many ways be beneficial.

But strictly speaking, if we're talking players-who-have-literally-EVERY-reason-to-be-scum.
Aeronaut is by far the winner. No player fills as many criteria as he does. These criteria extend beyond Pine's picks, as I define them. Beyond Aeronaut as a town vs scum player, there's what Aeronaut has given us.

If we want a scum lynch, he's the best chance we have at getting one, better than any other player. I'd prefer not to push him yet which is why moving my vote off of TheRealGin-N-Tonic was probably premature. But justsayin'. This is where my vote stays unless I'm given damn good reason to shift it elsewhere because the only thing which'll change is the strength of my push here.
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Post Post #778 (isolation #113) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm

Post by mastina »

(That being said: yes he fills Pine's picks pretty well, too. I don't think camn knows about Aeronaut, so I don't think camn drafts Aeronaut. So that means that there's no time limit--Aeronaut could be Pine's first, second, or even third pick for the draft. He's up there though, in that Aeronaut fits most of the criteria I've defined. Strength as a scum player. Ability to manipulate players. Unknown factor, because he's reasonably obscure. He's not a big-name flashy player. He's low-key. He's effective. He's got the game history, so Pine knows about him. He works well with scumbuddies, so he's great to synchronize a scumteam. There's more, but you get the idea. Aeronaut is an ideal pick for Pine, and his play this game supports my theory because this is scumplay from Aeronaut. I've seen Aero as town, scum, and even third party, and I'm reasonably confident of this.)
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Post Post #830 (isolation #114) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:56 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 780, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Literally the most frustrating feeling in the world is when you write up a long post and then chrome does fuck all/closes tab and i lose it
Control-shift-T is your friend. Most browsers, Chrome included, will cache your info for a ridiculously long period of time.
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Post Post #831 (isolation #115) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:01 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 795, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I'm about confused on what you're accusing me of here. It reads to me that because I decided to do town things to fake town, not because I am town. I also have never asked people to town read me, I don't know where that came from because I know I'm scum read and it won't likely change. Also, for some reason, asking you to follow your own advice that you look for the scum agenda a player is pushing instead of what is at face value made me look more scummier in your eyes and that doesn't make sense to me.
Final note, when did I ask people to town read me or force the issue? It feels like a strawman because I dont remember saying that.
The basic accusation there is, yes, you did things that were town without them actually being town. And the pragmatic use for that is people would then assume you are town without you having done anything. Then when this doesn't work, you bring the issue forward more deliberately, by asking: "I did these things. Why would I do those things as scum?", the question you were hoping they'd ask automatically. Your request didn't come across as looking for a deeper motivation. But in there, there's a deeper motivation that makes sense as scum; it's what I just described. (Now granted, I've made this clear enough: presence of a scum motivation does not necessitate absence of a town motivation, and vice-versa. They can both be present. But you asked me what the scum motivation was and I obliged.)
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Post Post #832 (isolation #116) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:04 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 796, Monokuma wrote:Sell us. Really. We're all ears.
I don't wanna.

When I want to sell something, you'll buy it.
But I explicitly am not feeling like selling you on Aeronaut being scum.

He is scum, yeah.
But I don't feel like explaining that right now. I don't feel like pushing him right now. Even though I could ask for you to just trust me (the read's strong enough where I can demand that), I don't feel like doing that right now. But I'll place my vote there anyway, until such a time where I do feel like giving you those things.
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Post Post #833 (isolation #117) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:06 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 813, SirCakez wrote:mastin backing off nacho while still scumreading him is another scumtell
Fuck off.
No seriously.
I have nothing more to say to you than this.
I could explain to you any myriad of things about me.
I could explain to you any myriad of things about Nacho.
I could explain to you the intricate history and interplay we have.
But no.

I don't feel like dealing with that bullshit.

So instead I'm just going to say this one more time:
Fuck. off.
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Post Post #834 (isolation #118) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:11 pm

Post by mastina »

Also, I did some art practice!
Image
Now, the temptation to give her evil/angry eyes existed, but I resisted. I figured, could always make that a second drawing, especially if she's looking down menacingly at Pine.
But hey. Figured I'd mention it. There was a little bit of guesswork involved, because camn's avatar crops a lot of the image there, but I did what I could to recreate the awesomeness there. (camn's avatar has always been one of my favorite avatars ever. I've been wanting to take a stab at drawing it for ages.)
Since I'm aiming to do a drawing a day, I'd take requests, but anything too complex will get me a "fuck no". (I'd say "would cost you you sheeping me", but I think "making a drawing so that people will sheep me" counts as bringing an outside influence into the game, so I don't think I'm allowed to set that as a price. Alas.)
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Post Post #859 (isolation #119) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:27 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 836, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So the conclusion you come up with is that I did it for scum motivation?
Not exactly, but I'll accept that as an answer as "close enough".
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Post Post #860 (isolation #120) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:36 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 839, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Mastin, what would you say you've done to make me think you're pro-town?
Nothing specific to you.

I'm town because I'm town. It's as simple as that. While I'd prefer one or two other players who're idiots to see that, for the most part, I've established that to all of the people who I needed it established to. Allowing me to move on to the next part of my three-step plan. (We're still on step two of three.) I don't need to spend time explaining why I am town. I don't need to show I am town. I simply have been town. It's that simple. You either see why I am town, or you don't.

I could explain why I am town, but I don't need to. Everyone who I consider to matter knows it to be true, that not only am I town, but also that I bleed town. Nacho actually said it adequately. Just because I'm a masterful scum player doesn't mean I'm not really good at being obvtown when I am in fact town. (As previously established, part of the reason my scumplay is so masterful is because it
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Post Post #863 (isolation #121) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:54 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 840, Vaxkiller wrote:@mastina
Suppose you are scum. How would you play this game? Where would you have started?
Well my plan for this game depends on who my scumbuddies are, but starts similarly to my play at the beginning of this game, which I modified from my scumgameplan:
First, I psychologically profile each player, including my scumbuddies. I point out their strengths as a player, I point out their weaknesses. I tell my scumteam who is mislynch bait, and who is a bad idea to try and lynch. I tell my scumteam the players who are realistic lynches especially as a compromise. I tell my scumteam which pushes could potentially backfire. I tell my scumteam which players are top priority for the nightkill. This is standard operating procedure. You saw me fake one of these lists in Defcon Mafia; I'd do the same here. (And if you ask me to, I will.) Obviously, I don't have scumbuddies so my list would be inaccurate for the actual game, but if I was scum that'd be a fair approximation of what I'd start with.

...HOWEVER. Specific to this game, I would be engaging with Pine a lot. I'd know some of the basis for his picks already by virtue of me knowing Pine, me being scum, and seeing his other two picks. I would ask for the order and the exact reasoning, and from these, I would prepare a plan. I would refine the list above, and add sections about how each player will be perceived in terms of realistic picks. In short, I'd augment the list so that our scumteam when pushing their positions would have not only gameplay backing them, but also "probability" behind them.

Then I'd implement the beginning of my day here: if Nacho is on my team, I'd need to establish a firm connection with him that wouldn't incriminate us. Engaging him swiftly and immediately would accomplish this, as you saw me do. The difference is, if I were scum with Nacho, his response to me wouldn't be "mastina, no", and my response to him wouldn't be "Okay, unvote: Nacho". We'd keep the dialog going, to establish distancing and realistic interactions, until such a time where it would be believable to think we were both town, and had changed our reads in a fluid, organic way as to townread the other.

If Nacho wasn't on my scumteam, then me engaging him immediately becomes a priority because keeping myself as a townread of his would be VITAL to my long-term success. Sure, I'd get to kill him earlyish on, but he'd be capable of doing real damage to my scumteam (particularly, lynching me) if I allowed him to get a good scumread on me and to actually have a chance to push it. By engaging him immediately, what would happen is exactly what did happen: Nacho townread me, because making the push against him which he knows I wouldn't be able to win (I've lost every mastina vs Nacho fight I've ever partaken in) is something that Nacho would have a soft spot for assuming I'd be town.

Now, of course. This would be cheap towncred. It wouldn't last, especially after I'd break the attack off (because not entering into that fight would be part of the plan), but as far as short-term gains, it'd be worth it. Getting Nacho out of the way, even temporarily, would give me the breathing room to manipulate the town free of worry about him. If my luck held, the townread from Nacho would last just long enough for me to nightkill him. Rather, I imagine that at the time of the nightkill, he'd be revisiting the townread, but not yet have publicly arrived at a scumread, which is obviously the best time to dispose of him.

With Nacho temporarily out of the way, with longterm plans to get him permanently out of the way, all I'd have to do is pull the strings as I saw fit and push where I thought needed to be pushed, and the town would eat itself alive. Throw in a fair share of strategical lurking (to keep myself out of the spotlight), and my only worry this game would be a vig shot. I wouldn't vig hunt, of course, and would pray that the vig hit town, basically leaving the vig up to chance. Which might seem unusual, but I don't ever PR hunt as scum; it hits VTs 7/10 times and if the vig suspect is a weaker player......yeah. Plus, allowing one or two vig shots gives me a fair idea of who the vig is. Both by how good/bad the shot is, and by who was shot (because certain shots are more likely from certain players with certain reads).

That's about as much as I planned out in my head in pregame before landing a town role. I'd probably talk this over with Pine and have him and my scumteam refine it a bit more, but you get the basic idea. The plan boils down to establishing a presence which gives a good Nacho-mastina interaction, and from that interaction, going on to push the town into lynching town.
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Post Post #864 (isolation #122) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:56 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 843, SirCakez wrote:Mastina telling me to fuck off also sucks
Especially since she's supposedly town reading me.
It is specifically because I am townreading you that I am telling you to fuck off.
Your play would be FAR less infuriating if you were just actually scum but because you're not, I'm stuck dealing with your bullshit.
drealmerz's pushes are entertaining. Wrong, but entertaining. I enjoy engaging drealmerz, especially since the points drealmerz raises aren't actually bad ones; they can hold some level of validity.

That's utterly absent from you, so once again I say it as explicitly as possible:
Fuck. off.
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Post Post #865 (isolation #123) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:58 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 853, BTD6_maker wrote:If Mastina scumreads Aeronaut then the pro-Town thing to do would be to try to explain it.
You and your narrow-minded views of protown versus antitown play.
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Post Post #873 (isolation #124) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:26 pm

Post by mastina »

Hey.
You want to hear a secret?
It's a terrible, deep, dark secret.

ONE OF: Fate/Nachomamma
drealmerz
SirCakez
Prism
Vaxkiller
BTD6_maker
Monokuma
The RealGin-N-Tonic
THE OTHER OF: Nachomamma/Fate
Aristophanes
Secret Agent Jin
Aeronaut

...What if I told you that these were my actual reads?
Would you, perhaps, believe them?
Or would you consider this another of my misdirections?
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Post Post #886 (isolation #125) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:27 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 876, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:the things she accuses me of, I'm looking at her and seeing her do it as well.
There's three aspects of this you should keep in mind.
First, my towngame is weaker than my scumgame, so I actively draw aspects of my scumgame when playing as town. Do you do this? You gave me no indication that this is something you were doing prior to the game's start. Rather the opposite; the implication I got from your posts was that this idea was absolutely new to you. So maybe sure, now you'll do it because you've got the idea, but were you already doing it before?

Second, well I forget what the second was, but it was important so I'll bring it up when I remember what the second aspect was.

Third, and most importantly, is that it's not what you say. What you say is playstyle dependent--you have a playstyle vaguely similar to my own. drealmerz does as well, which is one reason I like to engage you two so much. (Pine had one too when he was just starting, and that's one of the major contributing factors to why I fundamentally misread him: I attributed his similar playstyle to being town because it was nearly identical to my playstyle as town. When it was playstle, and not alignment indicative.) The important thing is how and especially
why
you say things.

So while what we do may be similar, it's the intent behind which matters.
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Post Post #887 (isolation #126) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:29 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 879, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I remember reading that the ones that try the hardest to not be manipulated are the ones manipulated most.
Precisely why I am engaging in the way that I am engaging, by the way.

If you're wondering how that works, pay attention to my posts.

Pay reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal close attention to my posts.
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Post Post #1039 (isolation #127) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:28 pm

Post by mastina »

Posting in here to basically say:
Had a staff meeting today (so a bit exhausted). I've only got an hour's spare time, and that won't be enough. I work Sunday mornings, but it's been a while since I posted because I had family night on Friday and didn't bother to post after it had ended because I was dead tired then.
In essence, most people know this already, but camn, our dear mod, may not, so just to tell her:
V/LA in general over the weekends, especially the second weekend of the month
, which...is this weekend.

I'll be able to do some online stuff, but not give a proper response until later tomorrow.
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Post Post #1111 (isolation #128) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:09 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 949, SirCakez wrote:this is painful to read
On the one hand: you're right. It's incredibly painful to read because I don't think there's any scum involved. Even if there were, then I don't think they're scum we'd catch on D1.

On the other hand: your indifference and apathy towards it makes you incredibly hard to defend, justsayin'.

Back to the first hand though: I can't exactly claim I'm better.

I should be intervening soonish enough, where I shut the idiots down who are focusing on mislynching one another and focus their attention on actual scum, but for some reason right now I'm a little low on energy so I'm not currently mustering it up, meaning my commentary is basically pot calling the kettle black since I'm doing the same thing.
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Post Post #1114 (isolation #129) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:13 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 994, BTD6_maker wrote:The correct answer is for the criminal to run through the alleyway 2/3 of the time and the boulevard 1/3 of the time and for the policeman to do the same.
There's a fundamental flaw with your analogy:
Presumably, the policeman wouldn't know anything about the criminal other than that the person is a criminal.
On the other hand...I know a lot about Pine, so the odds are biased beyond random.
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Post Post #1116 (isolation #130) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 999, Pine wrote:Yawn. Entertain me, mortals.
Heyo let's all come along,
Let us gather to hear this song,
It is a tale told far and wide,
About the scumfuck known as Pine.

He came to violate our dear camn,
To ruin her carefully concocted plan,
But here the forces of good will fight,
To destroy the evil known as Pine.

Heyo, let's all sing this song,
And in the process dump our thoughts,
To ask what we see and why,
To see through deceit and lies.

I say his ally is the yellow mouse,
His treachery shouldn't be allowed,
We should not allow him or his kind,
So full of their deceit and lies.

Heyo, let's keep going strong,
Don't be tempted to go wrong,
We're all here with a purpose to find,
Those that were corrupted by Pine.

Among their ranks is Aristophanes,
Who'd be a great lynch on this day,
I say that ending would be fine,
As it would so be damaging to Pine.

Heyo, let's lynch the Aeronaut,
Or maybe Agent Jin if not,
I say this with a sigh,
Don't be corrupted by their lies.

We can be a complacent lot,
So don't let our dear town rot,
Please I beg you to hear my cry,
You've fallen victim to deceit and lies.

This tale should not end here,
And that is my greatest fear,
That soon I will not be alive,
And you'll fall victim to the Pine.
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Post Post #1117 (isolation #131) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1006, SirCakez wrote:I also saw mastina's (where she said she "didn't want to" explain her Aero scumread which is total bull) which solidifies my scumread further
Okay.
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Post Post #1118 (isolation #132) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:34 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1007, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Cakez, realize Mastin will die to a night kill or will crumble later on, you don't have to trust Mastin to not trust me here. I don't understand how lynching Mastin, who is town as fuck, will help here.
You know it's kinda skeevy that your reach change on me comes after I stopped pushing you.

Justsayin'.
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Post Post #1122 (isolation #133) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:41 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1017, SirCakez wrote:mastin will be very difficult
Try impossible.

Getting me lynched requires seven votes.

You have three town: You, drealmerz, and BTD6.
You'd need all three scum just to get me at L-1. (Yet alone that I'm never getting lynched if for some ungodly reason I feel the need to claim.)

Since all three scum piling onto me isn't exactly something they can accomplish, realistically that's not gonna happen.

Oh.

And who's outside of there?
Gin? Not gonna vote me.
Bear? Not gonna vote me. (But would probably like me to explain my vote.)
Fate? Not gonna vote me.
Nacho? CERTAINLY not gonna vote me.
Prism? Okay not impossible, but not likely.

I suppose if you conned Vaxkiller into it, you'd have enough to have the lynch there when you add in three scumfucks, but the fact that it'll take all three scumfucks to lynch me should tell you something about how lynchable I am. (Hint: not very.)

You wanna lynch me? Wait until a later day when the lynch threshold is lowered and the people who still want to lynch me are still alive.
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Post Post #1124 (isolation #134) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:49 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1026, drealmerz7 wrote:there's just not enough rope to go around
Sure there is! You just have to not suck! :P

Also need to recognize some wagons can't happen and won't happen period.

Like, see how I'm voting Aeronaut? That wagon won't happen as-is. If I want to make it happen, I'll need to :effort: it into happening, but I can do that. Or failing that, do Aristophanes.

You, on the other hand, pretty much have been efforting to get me lynched. Well not as much as you could be, but more than I've efforted on Aeronaut and yet the only people following you are the people who would be voting me anyway. In short, you're not going to convince anyone to lynch me today.

Like.
I know that sounds like a challenge. I know that sounds like a taunt. "I'm immune, nyeh nyeh". (Which granted I'm not above doing though I happen to hate being on the receiving end of it thanks to a certain Tales of You game.) But I'm being realistic here: if you were being realistic, you'd realize that this wagon simply cannot go through today. You don't have the backing, and you can't GET the backing. So it's not going to materialize no matter how hard you fight. (Fuck even if you got another town to vote me, even if the scum wanted to pile on despite how obvious it would be, Pine probably wants me to live, or if I die for it to be at his hand via the nightkill, so it's doubtful the scum can join. They can't without it being a scumclaim, but even if they could there's the matter of whether they actually WOULD. Pine gets no satisfaction from lynching me, least of all on D1. He gets satisfaction from stringing me along, and then nightkilling me the MOMENT he thinks I'm more trouble than I'm worth.)
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Post Post #1128 (isolation #135) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:01 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1034, Aristophanes wrote:Oh lol Pine is the reason for Mastin2. That's awesome XD
Common misconception, but the proof is in the joindates that this isn't true.
If mastin2 was created because of Pine, then the joindate for that account would be spring of 2011, the date I misread Pine.
mastin2 was created on my one-year scumday, October 8th, 2009, before Pine had even signed up as a player on mafiascum.

That alone should show the evidence. There was always the intent for me to switch over to mastin2. There was always the intent for me to abandon the Mastin account. Pine gave me a convenient excuse to switch over, but it was going to happen sooner or later no matter what. He made it happen sooner, yes. That much of the story is true. But the idea that I switched to mastin2 because of the bet about Pine isn't true. It's a mafiascum urban legend.

I've gone over this in more detail before. Like, lots of times. Like here. And VERY thoroughly here. Probably elsewhere too.
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Post Post #1130 (isolation #136) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:04 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1040, Aeronaut wrote:As savage as it is to simply link three players ISO's instead of giving a case on any of them, I feel like you can't complain about the current site meta all game and then proceed to mimic it completely.
No, you see, I'm a mafia hipster. (Not to be confused with a mafia hiplop, which is not to be confused with a mafia hiphop.)
It's okay if it's done ironically.
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Post Post #1131 (isolation #137) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1043, Aeronaut wrote:I have a feeling you want to see how far you can get with me without providing any reasoning and instead just providing the promise that reasoning is there
Why's this just a feeling?
I've been rather explicit that I'm doing exactly that.
I've asked people what they think my reasoning behind doing exactly that is.
Especially my students, who should've picked up on it by now but haven't.
But I've been quite unambiguous about me deliberately putting off pushing you with reasoning for as long as humanly possible.
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Post Post #1135 (isolation #138) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:09 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1048, Prism wrote:Pretty soon Mastina is going to have to start playing mafia instead of whatever the hell you can call what they're doing.
Soon, sure.

Not now though.

When a player is in actual danger of being mislynched, I'll intervene I suppose.

We're not at that point yet, so.
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Post Post #1137 (isolation #139) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:11 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1052, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:once Ari said he'd be going through the thread, which he started doing, I saw content, opinions being formed, so naturally this heavily tilts the read on that slot.
Yes, Aristophanes has posted. If you call his posting "content", then you and I have very different definitions of that word, mfriend.
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Post Post #1138 (isolation #140) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:12 pm

Post by mastina »

(Okay so I suppose scumposting can still be considered content, just content that shows the player to be scum. That's what Aristophanes did.)
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Post Post #1139 (isolation #141) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:14 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1062, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:She's posted 128 out of 1062 posts this game; that's roughly 10% of the total posts in this game. Now, why is it that 6 out of your 8 posts before you came on today, talked strictly about Mastin and only Mastin?
I'm more interested in why of my 128 posts, he's focused on something like 8 of them leaving out the other 120 or so.
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Post Post #1140 (isolation #142) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:14 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1063, Pine wrote:WHAT'S SHE HIDING?
My trump card, of course~
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Post Post #1142 (isolation #143) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:23 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1075, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Pine, tell me a story, I'm bored
There once was a man named Pine,
He was a masterful man of mystery and crime.
He's someone who you would always like,
Even while he stabbed you 'til you died.

There was one time on a faithful day,
Where he did in his glamour say,
"I'm not gonna let camn have her way,
This is MY game that we're set to play."

Some people were eager to start,
Many of them were full of heart,
Pine readied to plow them like on a farm,
Picking his choices from a shopping cart.

Yet along came a free agent unseen,
A vengeful spirit who was so keen,
She had entered intent on allying,
But Pine denied her in his cruelty.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned,
A saying known since days of yore,
So when she found her heart was torn,
She became a wrathful spirit of lore.

And thus she would dominate the day,
Just so that to her friend she could say,
"Fuck you, your picks were lame,
So now I'm gonna have my way."
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Post Post #1143 (isolation #144) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:27 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1097, Aristophanes wrote:
In post 312, mastina wrote:
In post 276, Aeronaut wrote:And? I'm pretty sure that's what most of this game thinks, since it's you know, common sense.
Yep, I'm the only one who thinks we shouldn't let a game designed to fuck with us fuck with us, obviously. That's why nacho is the leading wagon, right?
Mafia exercise time.

This is a really fun one, I promise you.

Who here can spot the problematic nature of these two statements being placed back-to-back?

There's something very glaringly obvious in here. I could tell you at any time, but I want you to think for a sec, stretch your minds, and see if you're capable of figuring it out for yourselves.
I'm fairly certain the second half of this post is sarcastic. Like, I'd bet on that. Did you not catch that or did I miss something else in my reading of it?
I'm aware of Aeronaut being sarcastic. It's what the sarcasm is saying which contributes to the problem. The sarcasm, translated into non-sarcastic language, says, "Everyone knows this, and nobody's listened".

There's still a problem with those two statements.

And nobody's answered the challenge for what the problem is.
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Post Post #1144 (isolation #145) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:30 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1113, drealmerz7 wrote:we still love you, mastina
I'd love you back if it weren't for the fact that your read is fucking wrong.
I mean I can love people who correctly scumread me.
And I can love people who correctly townread me.
And I love most of all when people incorrectly townread me.
But I can't love people who incorrectly scumread me, sorry.
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Post Post #1145 (isolation #146) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1125, Aristophanes wrote:Mastina, please reconsider these two statements.
I don't see the issue. They're fine as-is. They're not mutually exclusive.
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Post Post #1146 (isolation #147) » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:44 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1126, Aristophanes wrote:
In post 1124, mastina wrote:Or failing that, do Aristophanes.
When did you start scumreading me and why??
Serious time?

Serious time, because I don't have any other scumreads.

I stopped scumreading Nacho. That could be a mistake, but all the same I did in fact stop.
I stopped scumreading Fate. I 100% KNOW that's a rational mistake ESPECIALLY given the lack of a Nacho scumread and the nature of Pine's picks, but for some reason I just didn't think he was scum when Nacho wasn't scum.
I stopped scumreading TheRealGin-N-Tonic. Their start for this game was atrocious, but their content has gotten stronger and stronger as the day has gone on. I know that they could be receiving coaching, and I KNOW that TheRealGin-N-Tonic went into this game not having read my theory work but by now has read most/all of it so no fucking duh would be getting better, but the amount of improvement this game is astronomical--I don't think that's how TheRealGin-N-Tonic would improve if actually scum.
I'm not scumreading Monokuma. The case people like Nacho and Fate push against them? Thoroughly makes me go, 'meh'. I mean, they're not exactly a shining beacon of towniness, either. And I know they have a strong scumgame. I just don't see their play here as actually being scum.

BTD6's posting has gotten weaker and weaker. But I haven't been scumreading him. His early posting felt incredibly sincere and surprisingly insightful--wrong, but at least doing shit which looked like it was something good.
Vaxkiller hasn't given me strong townvibes, but he hasn't given me scumvibes, either. The content he has given has made me lean towards town more than not, and I don't see the case for him being scum.
Prism's content has also gotten weaker than their strong start, but they did in fact have a strong start. I don't see this as a scumgame from them at all.
SirCakez is scummy, but I'm not scumreading him because this isn't his scumgame. He's town. His posting is town. While there are things he says which make me cringe on occasion, he's just town. Not scum. Just town.
drealmerz doesn't have a scummy bone in his body, aside from the lackluster strength behind his push on me and some tonal problems early-on, but both of those aren't things I actually had a problem with.

You, on the other hand: pisskop did nothing to make me think he was town, and was already plummeting down my readslist prior to your entrance into the game. Your entrance was null, so it didn't worsen the read, but because the above was happening, you moved into a POE scumread. And then when you add in your catchup, you get a serious scumread.
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Post Post #1171 (isolation #148) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:40 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1150, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
In post 1122, mastina wrote:You have three town: You, drealmerz, and BTD6.
This really bothers me.
Here's the thing about the wagons this game.
And this applies to every single wagon.
Wagon on Fate.
Wagon on me.
Wagon on Monokuma.
Wagon on you.
(I guess you could ask about an early wagon on drealmerz, too.)

Has it honestly felt like any of them were driven by scum?
Literally any of those wagons. Do they feel like they come from scum?

If you assume that the wagonees are town.
And if you assume Nacho is town.
And if you assume drealmerz is town.
And if you assume SirCakez is town.

Do you know who that leaves for possible scum on those wagons?

, drealmerz wagon: Aeronaut/Vaxkiller/Aristophanes. (Honestly, remember how Pine said he told his scumbuddies to pile on? If there's any point in the game where they did so, this would be it.)
The mastina wagon would be town. The SirCakez wagon would be town.

and onward, mastina wagon: BTD6_maker is the only possible scum. (That wagon has remained identical since that VC.)

, Nacho wagon: all town.
Gin wagon: only possible scum would be Prism.

, Gin wagon: possible scum are Prism/Jin.
Other wagons remain as they were. (drealmerz wagon, Vaxkiller/Aristophanes. mastina wagon, BTD6_maker.)

, Gin wagon goes to L-3. Possible scum remain Prism/Jin.

, Fate miniwagon: Aeronaut/Aristophanes. Otherwise, wagons remain the same. (The wagons this game have been insanely stagnant, never changing.)

, Fate wagon: Aeronaut/Aristophanes/Vaxkiller. (The same trio as the initial drealmerz wagon.) Otherwise, wagons remain unchanged. (Gin wagon: Prism/Jin. mastina wagon: BTD6_maker.)

, Fate wagon: still Aeronaut/Aristophanes/Vaxkiller because we're assuming Monokuma is town.
Monokuma wagon: Prism. (Because we are assuming all of Nacho/Fate/you are town.) This is literally the largest shift we've had in the game: an extra vote on Fate peaking his wagon at four, and Monokuma at four. Yet neither wagon has really gone anywhere.

, second largest shift in the game, Fate wagon: Aeronaut/Aristophanes/Prism.
mastina wagon: BTD6_maker/Vaxkiller. (Vaxkiller having left the Fate wagon which would've been L-2 with Vaxkiller still on it.)

None of our wagons this game have actually gotten high.
And the reason for that to me is pretty self-evident: scum are laying low. Scum aren't willing to expose themselves by sheeping a town-driven wagon.

Aeronaut/Aristophanes/Vaxkiller have the worst voting history, but Jin's vote is a dead one and so is BTD6's. Prism's history isn't the best.

In the group of Aeronaut/Aristophanes/Vaxkiller, you can safely assume there's scum: 1-3. Probably two. Of them, the one most likely to be town is Vaxkiller.
In the Jin/BTD6_maker duo, Jin's literally gone six days without posting, but like pisskop and now Aristophanes, hasn't really done ANYTHING to make me townread the slot. That lurker/flaker scum would help to explain the wagon history, so I favor Jin as scum over BTD6_maker.
Prism's the wildcard there, but I don't think Prism is scum. I don't really know how to explain why I don't think Prism is scum, I simply don't.

I mean. This is D1. And Pine knows how to manipulate VCA. These aren't things you can make some objective conclusions off of. There were many assumptions made here. But the trend I'm demonstrating here isn't dependent on some arbitrary decision of "scum must have one on here and one on here". What I'm showing you is the nature of the wagons we've had this game, and the nature of the wagons we've had this game is STRONGLY indicative of scum who are deliberately avoiding making a wave with their votes. Strongly indicative of scum who are doing basically nil this game. And there are certain players I attribute that trait to more than others.
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Post Post #1172 (isolation #149) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:45 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1158, Aristophanes wrote:Really? I'm a PoE scumread?
Not anymore, no. You've been promoted to flat-out scumread.
But yes, you were. You asked me how the scumread formed; it formed from POE. Content after the scumread formed (rather, your 'content') helped solidify it.
I agree PK was weak AF and I may have scumread him had I not gotten this slot.
I realize people have forgotten the real meaning of this, throwing around diluted meanings which have forgotten the original intent. But this right here? Original Amished tell in its finest form.
And how am I actually you're only scumread!?
You're not.
I'm voting Aeronaut, who was not listed on that wall.
Secret Agent Jin is my tertiary suspect, and was not listed on that wall. (Jin, unlike the other two, remains purely a POE scumread.)
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Post Post #1175 (isolation #150) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:11 am

Post by mastina »

Basically, why I feel the way I do:
The drealmerz wagon is one of the sketchiest wagons in the game. If there's any wagon comprised mostly of scum, it'd be this one. It was early-on and had no basis in reality.

The mastina wagon is driven by drealmerz and SirCakez. Basically nobody sane is scumreading drealmerz because the guy's obviously town. SirCakez is a bit of a tougher sell, I'll admit, but he's town, too. They are actually DRIVING the wagon. They're not leaving their votes there and doing nothing. They're consistently giving reasons as to why they are where they are. BTD6_maker has given reasons as well, albeit much much much weaker, which is why he's the weak link on that wagon.

The Nacho wagon was driven by me with reason. The person who gave the least amount of reason there was Gin. But Fate gave plenty of his reasons there. You might disagree with the quality, but he certainly wasn't just idling by and doing nothing with that vote. He put some effort into that push. You can disagree with the quality of the effort, but can't disagree that he was putting it in. So it was driven by town.

The Gin wagon was driven by Monokuma and me, with a side of Prism thrown in. My posts on the subject are obvious enough. So are Monokuma's. Prism's I remember as well, because Prism's early content focusing on Gin was what made me townread Prism initially. In hindsight, it's not as strong as the other two, but was there. Jin's reason for voting Gin? "Because in Hunger Games, Gin was a good scum player partnered with Pine, making them a good pick". Which...was a copy of my logic. That's why Jin's the most likely scum of the Gin wagon. (If Gin/Jin confuses you, you can always go the Japanese route and give a hard G, like Gin Ichimaru.)

The Fate wagon was driven not by Aeronaut, who just kinda started it. His reasoning? His literal first mention of Fate? The vote itself, where he declared, "Do stuff". Literally his reason for his current vote. And the wagon was also not driven by pisskop (Aristophanes), who blatantly jumped on. (The most you get in terms of reasoning? "congrats on picking on noncontent slots instead of ingame stuff". That was it.) Vaxkiller was one of the main proponents for it, as was Monokuma. This is one reason I find Vaxkiller less suspicious than others: he's actually driving the wagon. (He also made his reasons for suspecting me clear, which is why his switch onto me wasn't bad.) Prism, the late joiner giving a resurgence in the wagon, is also a weaker pusher there.

The Monokuma wagon has been driven by Nacho HARD, and also by Fate. We had a long spiel in thread recently where this was evident enough. The weakest votes there are Gin and Prism, who aren't as strong of drivers there.

There's a reasonably consistent trend there.
Nacho has pushed hard. I have pushed hard. Monokuma has pushed hard. drealmerz and SirCakez have pushed hard. Vaxkiller has pushed hard. Fate I say qualifies as having pushed, at least decently hard.
That leaves: BTD6_maker, Gin, Jin, Prism, Aeronaut, and Aristophanes.

And in there: Gin I am increasingly thinking is town.
BTD6_maker and Prism, while weaker town than they were, remain townish.

Aeronaut, Aristophanes, and Jin on the other hand...
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Post Post #1176 (isolation #151) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:11 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1174, Fate wrote:have you commented on my alignment yet mastina
Sorta kinda.
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Post Post #1179 (isolation #152) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:13 am

Post by mastina »

And to think I'm not even in serious pushing mode yet.
Though I suppose you could consider my current content to be churning up the gears and getting slowly ready for it.
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Post Post #1181 (isolation #153) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:15 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1177, drealmerz7 wrote:meanwhile...mastina is voting aeronaut
Yes which makes me one of only two people to have voted scum thusfar this game, if memory serves me. (The other is TheRealGin-N-Tonic.) And the only one who currently is voting scum for that matter.
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Post Post #1198 (isolation #154) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:51 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1192, Aeronaut wrote:No, it translates to please stop pushing Nacho using setup spec reasoning, because it was just making you silly and tunnely. And look, it worked. You're not quibbling with us about setup spec like you're in a newbie game and actually starting to play the game instead.
One, taking credit for something you had fuckall to do with, and two, still doesn't negate the issue there. Also, can I point out the irony in you claiming this in the same post you also mention this?
Recently he's had a few more solidified reads on people, but even then it's minimal and
not what I really thought I'd see from one of the top three people that mastina thinks should have been first round picks.
(I mean there's more wrong in this post than just that which makes Aero scum, butstill, this should nicely highlight some interesting shit about Aeronaut.)
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Post Post #1200 (isolation #155) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:58 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1195, Aeronaut wrote:If it's early on, doesn't no basis in reality make a lot of sense?
If this game had a proper RVS, sure, maybe.
It didn't, because this game had open-thread confirms: votes didn't count during the confirmation stage, but we could still talk. Therefore, content was generated before the first vote was cast.

There was already enough evidence available for determining drealmerz was town. He had TWENTY posts at the time. Everything from and before was around, and that was plenty to show his alignment.
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Post Post #1201 (isolation #156) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:00 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1197, Aeronaut wrote:{Mastina, Nachomamma8}
{drealmerz7}
This is the no-buddy zone. (Not to be confused with the 'nobody' zone, because this is quite the opposite.)
{TheRealGin-N-Tonic, Prism}
{Monokuma, BTD6_MAKER,
Jin
}
This is the nobody-zone, which is not to be confused with the no-buddy zone, because there is precisely one scumbuddy here. It's not TheRealGin-N-Tonic.
{Fate,
Aristophanes
}
{SirCakez, Vaxkiller}
And this is the second scumbuddy zone. It is ESPECIALLY not SirCakez, Aero's actual vote. That wasn't a bus.
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Post Post #1202 (isolation #157) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1199, Aeronaut wrote:
In post 1198, mastina wrote:
In post 1192, Aeronaut wrote:No, it translates to please stop pushing Nacho using setup spec reasoning, because it was just making you silly and tunnely. And look, it worked. You're not quibbling with us about setup spec like you're in a newbie game and actually starting to play the game instead.
One, taking credit for something you had fuckall to do with, and two, still doesn't negate the issue there. Also, can I point out the irony in you claiming this in the same post you also mention this?
Recently he's had a few more solidified reads on people, but even then it's minimal and
not what I really thought I'd see from one of the top three people that mastina thinks should have been first round picks.
(I mean there's more wrong in this post than just that which makes Aero scum, butstill, this should nicely highlight some interesting shit about Aeronaut.)
e.g. you think that because they're probably good players.
Which...doesn't negate my point.
Man playing a game with Mastina is like playing a game with Titus.
Son, I TAUGHT Titus how to play.

...No, seriously, she actually asked me to help her improve her play at one point and I did what I could to give her tips to do exactly that. She's one of my former students.
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Post Post #1257 (isolation #158) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:22 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1204, Aeronaut wrote:
In post 1202, mastina wrote:
In post 1199, Aeronaut wrote:
In post 1198, mastina wrote:
In post 1192, Aeronaut wrote:No, it translates to please stop pushing Nacho using setup spec reasoning, because it was just making you silly and tunnely. And look, it worked. You're not quibbling with us about setup spec like you're in a newbie game and actually starting to play the game instead.
Also, can I point out the irony in you claiming this in the same post you also mention this?
Recently he's had a few more solidified reads on people, but even then it's minimal and
not what I really thought I'd see from one of the top three people that mastina thinks should have been first round picks.
(I mean there's more wrong in this post than just that which makes Aero scum, butstill, this should nicely highlight some interesting shit about Aeronaut.)
e.g. you think that because they're probably good players.
Which...doesn't negate my point.
Yes it does?
No, it still doesn't. You advocated against the logic of Pine's picks. You then go on to use the logic behind Pine's picks. You're trying to have your cake and eat it.
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Post Post #1258 (isolation #159) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:23 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1210, SirCakez wrote:
In post 1195, Aeronaut wrote:
In post 1187, SirCakez wrote:Aero I went back and reread the game and then gave my opinion to try to shut down the bad Monokuma wagon. That's most certainly not doing nothing.
Try harder to throw shade.
Yeah, but you spent most of the day doing fuck all, and that's my issue. Generally I always find that people that spend the whole time complaining about how the game is either too long or too noisy or too hard to get anything from aren't trying that hard and are probably scum to begin with.
lol this is total bull and anyone who's been reading the game would know that
Yes, it is bullshit!
It being bullshit tells you...
what
, exactly, about Aeronaut's alignment?
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Post Post #1259 (isolation #160) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1256, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Mastin, whats your thoughts on the bear?
North of the null line by some considerable yet undefined margin. And in this case: I really do mean undefined. Not, "defined, but I refuse to release the exact amount". I really mean, "some undefined amount which I haven't a fucking clue about". I don't think they're scum. I'm not sure by how much I don't think they're scum. I just don't think there's been a single successful wagon on a player who's actually scum. Not Fate, not SirCakez, not drealmerz, not Monokuma, not you.

When Pine said "you guys haven't a clue".
And that his team is doing well.

No joke.
I think he was well within his rights to have made that claim in absolute sincerity.

Now the scumteam might not be Aeronaut-Aristophanes-Jin. Fuck, it's possible none of them are! That in BTD6/Vaxkiller/Prism we've got the actual scumteam. I mean, I've laid out my reasons why I more or less don't think Vaxkiller is scum, and have my doubts about Prism/BTD6_maker being scum. I've begun to give reasons for the others being scum even if not by much. But I think the scum are in those six names.

And none of them are anywhere remotely close to being lynched, none of them are even remotely close to so much as having a wagon on them. So none of the people up for the lynch are players I actually think are scum.

Now, I'm still debating in my head about whether I want to push Aeronaut, believe it or not. I'm not sure I actually do. And even if I do, while I've got the list of facts for why he's scum inventoried in my head, translating those into words might be a bit difficult and I'm not quite sure where I'd begin.

But what I won't do is lynch any of Fate/Nacho/Gin/Monokuma/SirCakez/drealmerz today.
That's my stance.
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Post Post #1278 (isolation #161) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:42 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1267, Aeronaut wrote:You know, I'd be super down for a Mafiascum D&D sesh. Is that a part of Mish Mash or do I have to make it one?
I think you'd have to make it.
I also think it'd be mega-slow.
Also, I'd love love love LOVE to be a part of it.
I've wanted to be a part of a D&D campaign ever since I heard of D&D, which at this point has to be...oh, at least twelve years ago if not more.

Yet I have zero contacts in real life who'd have this as a possibility, and every time this comes up online, there's zero followthrough, or the method that's chosen is one that involves real-time playing in order to combat the mega-slow nature of internet-based D&D. (I can't do real-time playing.)

On an actual game note: Fuck you, Aero.
You were totally not only Pine's first pick, but also an extraordinarily good one because you're better at convincing and manipulating people than you say you are and you're so damn good at it that in spite of me
knowing
that you were his first pick you're actually making me feel otherwise. :evil:

VOTE: Prism.
This, to answer who I would push.
Prism's attitude towards me is something I won't tolerate. Writing me off as useless was cute when it was the RVS. Not so much now, especially when Prism's done fuckall since then. I can understand the idea, in theory, of someone not listening to me in a game. But not so much in this game. Now granted, what said player actually hears may differ. Of the twelve players listening to me, there are twelve different ideas of what I'm actually saying. (I'm counting Pine among them.) BTD6, SirCakez, drealmerz, and Vaxkiller say it's scummy shit, but they've listened. Monokuma has listened to me and wants more. Nacho has concluded I'm town but wrong. Fate has listened but I don't know what he's said.
And so on and so forth.
The point I'm getting at here is that every player in the game has said they are reading my posts and trying to do something with them.
Every player, except Prism.

And Prism has said, "not worth it, gonna assume null, not going to bother to sort, not going to bother to read, not going to do anything there". That callous attitude towards a
very fucking important part of the game
is not something I associate with town. And me saying I'm an important part of the game isn't ego--it's simple objective truth.
I have one of the highest post counts in the game, second only to Gin in fact.
I have one of the largest wagons in the game, second only to the brief L-2 Fate wagon. I am the currently-largest wagon.
This is all objective facts which are 100% accurate
and
relevant no matter what.
For objective facts which may or may not be relevant, you can also add in:
-I have more game history with Pine than any other player here.
-I have significant game history with Nacho.
-I have quite a bit of game history with many other players in this game.
-I am considered by many players to be a very significant player on mafiascum. People think I'm good. People think it so much that they have a higher expectation of me than I am realistically able to deliver.

Those are also all objectively true.
And it doesn't even begin to factor in the subjectivity of my claim to be a very important part of the game.
The simple fact is, Prism is ignoring me, and is either an alt or someone who has mastered the old perception of me that veteran players used to take, to ignore me if for no other reason on policy alone, because surely the words of mastina, the wallposter mastina, the infamous mastina, is someone not worth paying attention to, who says a lot of meaningless shit and nothing of importance. That's the attitude Prism is displaying and that's the attitude old veterans would display to me, but it's NOT the attitude a new player displays to me.

Then you get into what Prism has done.
What
has
Prism done?
Can you answer me even that much?

Prism may have a recent V/LA of some sort in effect, would have to check for how long and starting when and when it ends, but the fact is, prior to that point, what did Prism do? Prism had a strong early start, sure, pushing Gin-N-Tonic. But other than that, they've done basically nothing. And even their Gin push was weaker than some of the other members of the wagon there.

I know, I could be shooting myself in the foot for reneging my early townread there. But if I don't see Prism produce something worthwhile, I'm not going to be so sorrowful about it.
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Post Post #1283 (isolation #162) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:58 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1269, Aeronaut wrote:I would have thought that your POE thing would have made you assume that if Nacho is town and you're town, then Fate must be scum from your perspective right?
Objectively yes.

Objectively, I should be treating this like a programmer would:
If "Nacho is scum"
{"Fate is town", "Aeronaut given space"}
Else If "Fate is scum" {"Aeronaut given space"}
Else "Aeronaut is scum" {}.
Or some pseudoprogramming, but you get the message I'm trying to convey.
Assuming Nacho scum first.
If/when that proved to no longer be a good assumption, assume Fate scum as a first pick.
If/when even that proved to no longer be a good assumption, assume Aeronaut must have been the first scum pick as a result of both primary picks not being scum and Aeronaut still being a strong scum player who Pine would have reason to pick.

Objectively, I should still be pressuring Nacho, but even if I chose to not do so, even if I chose to--at his request--give him space despite having no reason to, I should have defaulted to pushing Fate.

But subjectively it doesn't feel right. I know that Fate isn't the beacon of towniness that I usually associate with a town Fate.
I know that the Fate I'm seeing now is not destroying scum left and right.
I know that Fate is, right now, weaker than he could be.
I know that Fate, objectively, has done nothing he can't do as scum.
I even know that Fate, objectively, has done some scummy shit which sounded fake.
And it's not like the probabilities point to him being town. Quite the opposite, objective measures and even some subjective ones point heavily to him being scum.
And yet, in spite of all of this: I don't actually feel he's scum. I get gut twinges. I see flashes of him being scum. I see his lackluster pushes, his push without gusto, without heart, without conviction, as something which makes a lot of sense from a scum Fate. Yet in spite of me seeing the scum motive in his actions as clear as day. In spite of me seeing exactly how he could be scum, and how much of a probability it is. In spite of by every metric I normally use when weighing my balanced scales of possibilities it being more likely that Fate's scum than town.

I still don't actually believe that he's actually scum. I'm not sure how to explain it. In the way my mind works, everyone is simultaneously both town, and scum. This I have explained before. I am both right about everyone, and wrong about everyone, at the moment. So I go with the balance of possibilities versus probabilities, selecting the probability even if I know there's the possibility I'm wrong, because the probability is what I've concluded is more likely in the current moment. And probability, as far as I can logically tell, says Fate's scum.

But for some reason something which I haven't quite defined yet is tipping the scales to town. I'd hate to call it gut, but call it that if you must. My preferred term would be more akin to, "I saw something but can't quite remember/define what it was exactly, with that something being a strong counter to the evidence". You know, like...a concept of Fate being town. I saw a concept of him being town, which was stronger than the language of him being scum. I just am not quite sure what, exactly, said concept was.

So no. I don't think Fate is scum. I realize why people think Fate is scum and I even have the same logical reasons that everyone else does for thinking that Fate would be scum. I see their logic, understand their logic, and rationally I even agree with their logic. But in spite of the logic, he's not a scumread.
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Post Post #1284 (isolation #163) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:05 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1280, Vaxkiller wrote:Choose fate or mastina
I'll make the choice easy on ya.
I don't think there's a risk of me being lynched.
But there's a risk of me being moronically vigged depending on who holds the vig role.
I didn't want to claim in case the scum's role was a roleblocker, but I suppose I'll have to take the risk.

I am a 1-shot masonizer
.
Remember when I said I had an ability which could confirm me as town?
This was it.

If I target town, my target will become a mason with me. Our talk would be night-time only.
If I target scum, my ability will fail.

Of course, I had already softclaimed, and the scum know that I'm town and the town doesn't, so that also contributed to my decision here to claim.
I intend to use my power tonight. Who I use it on, for obvious reasons, I shan't disclose. But obviously, a vig vigging me would feel awfully fucking stupid the morning after when they realize they shot confirmed town, so here ya go. The person I target, should I succeed, will be able to verify my claim D2, making us either scumbuddies, or both town.

Take that into advisement.
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Post Post #1287 (isolation #164) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:10 am

Post by mastina »

And yes, this is the page linked to in my role PM. The relevant section is here:
A Mason Recruiter or Masonizer is a similar role for Masons. However, if a Masonizer targets someone who is not Town-aligned, the action will fail.
Notably, I lack the part about dieing if I target scum.
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Post Post #1318 (isolation #165) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:40 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1298, Fate wrote:Nacho we may have to compromise on Prsm
It's not ideal, I know.
But the idea of lynching me is absurd.
I don't feel like you're scum.
And I'm sorry, but I don't feel like Monokuma is scum, either.
So none of the wagons we have, I feel like will land on scum.

If you gave me something actually convincing on Monokuma, I'd lynch them, sure, but nothing I've seen has been convincing me in the least. It's not like I have some strong townread there; I just don't see them as scum, and I'm begging to be shown something that could make me see them as scum and while efforts to show them as scum have been made, none of them appealed to me. So it's not very likely you'll get me to lynch there because it's not very likely you figure out anything which would actually be convincing to me. Meaning, yes, realistically, lynching Monokuma is probably impossible.

Prism's not my first choice. Heck, they could be far from my last choice. But there's six names I feel like shooting in the dark for. Aeronaut/Aristophanes/Secret Agent Jin/BTD6_maker/Vaxkiller/Prism.

Not only is there resistance to Aeronaut/Aristophanes, but also I'm not actually sure if I want to pressure them.
I don't want to lynch Vaxkiller today because of the six, he's by far the towniest.
That leaves the pool at: Jin/BTD6/Prism. Jin is a lurker, and people resist lurker lynches.
BTD6 is a lurker, and people resist lurker lynches.
Prism was therefore the one I chose to pressure.

And believe me this wasn't an easy choice; I might change my mind yet. But it was a decision I needed to make.
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Post Post #1338 (isolation #166) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:59 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1300, Prism wrote:Congratulations for claiming at L-3 mastina.
Yes, and I had good reason to do so. FOUR players in this game who were potentially the vig held a scumread on me.
A viable strategy as a vig is to shoot a player who was a lead wagon, and none of the players on me were going to switch off of me, meaning that at the day's end, I'd be the secondary wagon, a normally good shot for a vig to take on policy alone: the idea being, the vig shot would act as a second lynch, by taking out the town's secondary suspect with the lynch as their primary.

So there was a significant chance I would be vigged.
Furthermore, assume some sort of blocking role is in the town's hands, and they used it on me. Well then, that would be suboptimal, and now they KNOW this.

Given that I had already softclaimed, and that the scum know I'm town, the scum would know I was telling the truth, so me fullclaiming gives them very little.
All it tells them is that I'm
not
the vig, but now, they're left with a choice:
Either try to find the vig with their night actions, or put a stop to my masonry with their night actions. So while I did give them the info of not being a vig, the benefit there is that they either do nothing to stop me (in which case, I lose nothing), or they do something to stop me and don't stop the vig: a win-win either way for me.
Great timing as well with the "What has Prism done?" as a push on me,
right after I announced that it would change in approximately 7 hours
.
It is precisely
because
of that timing that I am pressuring you.
Pressuring Secret Agent Jin would do jacksquat.
Pressuring BTD6_maker would do jacksquat.
Pressuring you as you are about to return, on the other hand?

That makes a difference.
It also doesn't change the point I made, about your content prior to leaving. Your strongest content was an early Gin push. Your followthrough content was basically openended posts which could easily be rewritten to serve your needs in the future. (That being, "no, I was clearly doing this thing!" if you needed to say it, or "no, I was clearly doing that thing!" if you needed to say
that
. Lots of your stuff there was open to interpretation and was not solidified.)
The plain, simple truth is that whatever wisdom you're spewing out, if any, in these 1000+ word text blocks, are being lost by your own failure to trim them down.
And that's the thing which made me accuse you of being an alt.

My posts, contrary to my reputation,
aren't
long. They're comparatively short. Fuck, if you're looking for a text block, Monokuma's is in a style I consider absolutely unreadable. You are literally the ONLY player in this game claiming an inability to parse my posts. Vaxkiller comes at a close second, but even he sees the content I'm producing.

The thing is, almost all of my posts
are
content. There's some fluff in there, yes. Talking about D&D. Posting images. Talking about art. Things like that, sure, yeah, that's fluff. Game theory, past game history, readslists, saying who I think is scum, saying who I think isn't scum, saying that these posts here are problematic, talking to players about what they're doing well and what they're not doing well, explaining myself, and so on and so forth? That? All game content. And that? Makes up 95% of my posts this game.

If most of the game thread had trouble with this, you could argue, sure, my fault for not conveying it.

But you're literally the only one who apparently can't see my content staring right at you in the face. Which is why I'm calling you out like this. You keep insulting me. You keep telling me that my posts are worthless. You keep on comparing me to long works of nothingness, insinuating that what I have given is of no value. And yet while the only way to know its value is to see the postgame results in hindsight (that being, how accurate I was and was not), the simple fact is you're pretending I'm something I'm not. You're writing me off as worthless. From an alt, I could see this. From a veteran player who remembers who I used to be, I could see this. From someone whose first mastina experience is this game, I can't see this as town, because it's far from the truth.
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Post Post #1348 (isolation #167) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1303, Prism wrote:All of that and you still are managing to misvote all on your own because of your own hyperinflated ego.
^Another attitude which contributes to the alt accusation.
Old players think I have an ego. (With the occasional exception.)
New players don't. (With the occasional exception.)

I've got less ego than basically any other player in the game. I doubt myself.
Consistently!
Doubt myself. Every step of the way.
I consider my flaws.
I consider the problems.
I consider all of the ways I am probably wrong.
I know that everything I do could be a mistake.
And I absolutely hate myself for it. I loathe how imperfect I am. I see every mistake before it happens, and that means every time I let the mistake happens, it's all the worse because of it. Because seeing a mistake and letting it happen is TEN times worse than not having seen the mistake when it happened in terms of competency.

In no uncertain terms, do I explain this to others.
In no uncertain terms, does the message get across easily to players.
This is the first game I've had with TheRealGin-N-Tonic, drealmerz, BTD6_maker, and Secret Agent Jin, among others.
It is one of my first games with Nahdia.

Yet none of them accuse me of having an ego, because all of them know I don't have one.

If you were an alt, your behavior would make sense.
If you were scum and Pine gave you knowledge of my past (especially by linking to past games), then your behavior would make sense.
But as town I don't see you viewing my posts this way with no prior mastina experience. Because the demeaning attitude you take. Your aura of superiority you try to take over me. The accusations you're making. They don't match reality. Not this game's reality, at the very least.
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Post Post #1357 (isolation #168) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:24 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1315, Prism wrote:Have you considered, for even
one second
, that the reason I and apparently a lot of veteran players do this is because there are real, tangible benefits to doing so?
There are tangible benefits to skimming. Fuck, I skim. I skim a
lot
. Like, a lot a lot. There are players whose posts I will almost entirely skip, for whatever reason: bad formatting, I have a strong enough read on the slot that nothing in the post will change it, what they're saying simply doesn't seem relevant, etc.

Skim.
Not skip.
Not ignore.

The two are entirely different.

You've by your own declaration said you're ignoring me.

And there is ZERO town benefit in doing that. I fully expect people when reading my posts to skim. Fuck, I skim my own posts. (Not because of length/formatting, just because I read to get the general gist of what I just said to make sure I've covered what I wanted to.) I expect other players to skim my posts, just as I skim theirs, because nobody in the current site meta actually reads every post--any player who claims to do so is a liar. It's impossible in a large, it's impossible in a mini, it's impossible even in a micro. Reading everything takes too much time, and is too much a waste of effort, because so much of what is said isn't actually of importance. So we skim. I know this better than any other player.

But as a result of me knowing it better than any other player, I also know there is no benefit in IGNORING a player. Skimming a post is fine. Consistently skimming posts is fine, even(/especially?) if they're all by the same author. Writing off a player is not. And you've said that is what you've done.
make whatever posts you make at least somewhat relevant or worth reading, and have them be useful
...Which, again. Makes up 95% of my content. Not 5%. Not 10%. 95% of my posting, including right now, is doing this, because while I'll fluff a little bit, most of my posts have a purpose. Now, what said purpose is might not be relevant to what you want:
Me talking about a Gin scumread, for instance--that was relevant at the time, but isn't relevant anymore because my opinion on Gin changed, the read changed, and it changed from probably-wrong to probably-right.
Me talking to the players on my wagon and telling them they are wrong might not be relevant to what you want, if you're looking for current scumhunting from me, either.

But while those things might not be relevant to what you currently want (that being, current content), those things were in fact...at the time they were posted, content. They were purposeful, with intent. And from that, you could get something from me. You could get a read on me. You could ask how I changed from point A to point B to point C. I've had read changes, very notable read changes--you could ask me how come Nacho stopped being pushed. You could ask me why I started to push you. You could ask what happened to Aeronaut. You could ask any number of questions.

Because the idea my posting isn't content is LAUGHABLE.
You say "where's your content?"?
I say...where ISN'T my content?
Even this post is content!
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Post Post #1360 (isolation #169) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:28 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1319, SirCakez wrote:VOTE: fate
We all know the reasons why here, and his Prism hop on here is opportunistic as fuck
Pot, kettle, black.

"We all know the reasons why here" for voting Fate, next to "hopping on a wagon is opportunistic as fuck" should tell you as much, SirCakez.
You're voting THE most opportunistic wagon. Fate's the largest wagon, and the easiest wagon, and the wagon this game which has gotten the largest, with the most people backing it. The wagon hasn't gone away.

Fate was the third voter on Prism.
You're the sixth voter on Fate. (I mean, not six current voters, but at least six total voters across the whole game.)
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Post Post #1361 (isolation #170) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:34 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1322, Prism wrote:Holy cognitive dissonance.
It's not. People resist lurker lynches.
Secret Agent Jin is a lurker. If I was asked to point out why I think Jin is scum, it would be: "POE, plus a lack of content". Does this sound convincing to you? I have nothing against Jin, in spite of the scumread.
Would Jin magically appear and be around to produce more content? I've no reason to believe this, so it wouldn't be strengthened or weakened.

BTD6_maker is a lurker. If I was asked to point out why I think a BTD6_maker lynch might hit scum, it'd be a little bit more than Secret Agent Jin, but not by much: "POE, plus content overly mastina-centric. He's focused on only a fraction of my posting, discarding the rest, and used it as an excuse to give nothing on the rest of the game". Not exactly a slam-dunk case, now, is it?
Would BTD6 magically appear and be around to produce more content? I've no reason to believe this, so it's neither strengthened nor weakened.

You on the other hand, have content. I haven't pointed it out yet, haven't made a proper case for why you would be scum, but I don't need to in order to push you, for one simple reason: me pushing you is productive...because you signaled your return. You were explicitly on a set-date V/LA. BTD6 and Jin, not so much. But you, you would come back, and come back soonish (as in now), to respond, and here we are.
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Post Post #1362 (isolation #171) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:36 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1329, Fate wrote:Cakez hop off mastina was about as scummy a dismount you can do to
"hmm dont buy the claim but I guess ill let it slide hurrdhurhur"
I mean, you're not
wrong
, I just don't think Cakez is actually scum for it.
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Post Post #1365 (isolation #172) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:45 pm

Post by mastina »

You, SirCakez, BTD6_maker, and Vaxkiller.

That's 4/9 players who could be the vig that scumread me.
Basically a 50% chance that the vig, if not getting a lynch on me, would vig me during the night.

Furthermore, even among the 5/9 town players not scumreading me, if they are of the mindset that vigging the lead-non-lynch-wagon would be the best use of their shot...then 4/13 players voting me would make me the leading-non-lynch-wagon, putting me in danger of being vigged by a vig using this mindset.

Making the chance of me getting vigged some undefined number above 50%--way, way, WAY too high an amount. While it being 0% wasn't something I felt I needed, I needed it to be much lower than that. And I already tried my alternative methods: I talked to each member of the wagon. I explained my stances on them. I engaged each of them. They still remained. So a claim became the only viable method of convincing them they were wrong, and at least reducing the odds of me being shot.
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Post Post #1366 (isolation #173) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:51 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1340, Monokuma wrote:Also @mastina that post was
deliberately structured to be dense
!!!! Grah!!
Doesn't matter; it still makes a fine example of the "text block" format of posts that I simply cannot read. And honestly don't understand how others read. I mean in that particular case I read it anyway if it's consolidation for you (it took me a few tries to get all the way through, though), but normally that dense format of so much text in one space is utterly incomprehensible to me.

There's a technique to proper walling. I've gotten it down to a science--a bit like science, it's imperfect knowledge in that there's always room to improve some more. But there's still a technique involved in making large amounts of text be readable. (See this? This is an instance of a fluff post. Or would have been, without this parenthetical statement, which pushes it back into being content. Literally the first in a string of posts where I'm not producing content though.)
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Post Post #1368 (isolation #174) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:55 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1341, Fate wrote:You asked me for reasons that I thought you were scum, Prism. I glanced at the post, didn't read your ISO, realized I
had
no reasons for thinking you were scum. Instead of going through your ISO and making shit up or having a conf-bias, I votedScumCakez instead. Not much to explain there, really.

Normally I enjoy Nahdia's fluff prose and posting, but this game I only get a feel of "look how townie I am really! Just jokster nahdia here!" the intent and TIMING of the fluffprose is NOT with the INTENT to humor, entertain (both others and herself), and to add depth to the thread
This is scum Nahdia posing.

That is the wagon I REALLY WANT (because cakez still has 10% of being shit at this game, but his stances and stubbornness continue to sound scummier and scummier with each post so I really am fine with either). The bonus fact that SC was on that horribad mastina wagon, and then DIDNT EVEN RECALIBRATE THE READS with mastina claiming a confirmable role
there was no "ah shit, maybe mastina is town bc of that claim? WHat odes that make Fate?" There was ONLY A HOP FROM ONE MISLYNCH TO THE NEXT BIGGEST MISLYCNH WAGON
if I die over Cakez I dont even
dont even hope for no town nope
While this isn't the ol' screaming Fate from the days of yore, this is a good example of why Fate is a top-tier player.
If he's scum, this is
exactly
the right thing to say. As in, EXACTLY the right thing to say, to get people off of him because this post is just so overwhelmingly town.

If he's town, this is
exactly
the post I wanted him to give me. As in, not only something overwhelmingly town, but also something which gives me some actual meat. See this? This is how to make points that actually resonate with me. Like, Fate's said this about Monokuma and SirCakez, two players I have explicitly said I have zero interest in lynching.

And I am listening to him intently
.
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Post Post #1369 (isolation #175) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:02 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1347, Prism wrote:Its value is subjective, because
I
am the one that has to read evaluate it, and it's worthless to me if I have to wade through an ocean of mud to get to
your singular view of the game
when I can just build a bridge, drive over the ocean, and get basically everything I need just the same.
Still a dodge of the point I was making.

You still haven't produced content.
And you've consistently avoided giving stances.
You're still not working to find what's meaningful and what's not.
Fuck, while it's a little bit of a moot point now, you even avoided giving direct thoughts on my slot even post-claim.

For someone who seems so sure that I've done nothing.
You sure seem to be guilty of a lot of nothing yourself.
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Post Post #1370 (isolation #176) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:04 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1349, SirCakez wrote:Fate admitting to voting without even scumreading people lmao
That post was literally the towniest post Fate has made all fucking game, and it OOZED towniness.
I don't care if it turns out Fate's actually scum, that was still a town post. If he's scum, it was a town post he made as scum but it's still a town post to its very core on every possible level.
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Post Post #1372 (isolation #177) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:12 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1356, drealmerz7 wrote:smarter townplay is to only partially claim if that is the truth (at least how I'd do it)
Okay, picture this.
I target a player, and am the scum's nightkill.
The player claims they were the target.
My role may or may not, depending on how thoroughly camn flips roles, explain my role. In short, it may or may not spell out that I lack the 'dies when targeting scum' clause.
Town, not seeing this, assume that I died because I targeted scum.
The player I masonized gets mislynched, because they can't prove I succeeded in masonizing them.

Or, picture this.
I target a scum player, and am the scum's nightkill.
My role may, or may not, flip entirely.
The town, seeing this, will figure out I targeted scum...but might not conclude I was the scum's nightkill.
As a result, this not only leaves open the door for scum to fakeclaim a cause for a kill prevention N1, but also helps hide the reasons why scum chose to kill me N1.

In other words, regardless of whether I target town or scum, unless my FULL role flips upon my death, there's incentive for me to claim my full role, because if I hold back a part of it, camn might not reveal it and if she doesn't the town could make some costly incorrect assumptions.
Ergo, fullclaim.
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Post Post #1374 (isolation #178) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:14 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1345, Aristophanes wrote:I skim Mastina posts for like, keywords and shit a lot.
Yes, you skim.
You don't ignore.

The problem with Prism wasn't saying they skimmed.
It's in saying they ignored me.

Skimming is something everyone does. Anyone claiming they don't skim is a liar.
Ignoring is something only scum benefit from.
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Post Post #1379 (isolation #179) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:21 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1363, SirCakez wrote:Except the person I was voting claimed something confirmable so I obviously wasn't going to stay there, while Fate just jumped to Prism because wagons???
Your reason for switching: "Well that wagon's not going to happen, let's go here".
Fate's reason for switching: "Well that wagon's not going to happen, let's go here".
Fate's explanation was actually better than yours:

He was on a two-man wagon including himself. He said that it might not happen, and that we might have to compromise. The only non-Fate, non-mastina, non-Monokuma (his vote at the time) wagon in the game? Prism, with two votes not including himself. So he switched. This was not a sudden inexplicable switch. He talked about the switch well before he actually did switch.

Your reason for switching was, as Fate so eloquently explained, "Well I don't buy it, but let's switch off anyway".
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Post Post #1386 (isolation #180) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:36 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1364, Prism wrote:mastina I'm just saying I lied and have read literally every post, every word, and was just nudging you towards a goalpost that would be more helpful to me, and have made several allusions to the fact that I have done this.
You know I want to say this is bullshit so fucking hard especially considering I said explicitly you've already pulled this shit before, previously: in particular. "Just kidding!" much the same.

You've also been saying this to me the whole game. You haven't just recently started saying "mastina is useless; I'm ignoring her". You've said it since the beginning: (admittedly my posts at that particular time weren't made for finding scum; I have other motives behind posting at the time), , skipping the posts that were implicitly to me but not explicitly, you go to , and to name a few.

I really want to call horseshit on the idea of you reading my content and pushing it to something more useful for you, and not getting anything from it. Because it's not as if I have been hiding my scumreads in the midst of posts where I have done fuckall. I've made my scumreads clear every time I've posted. Now, as of this moment, my scumreads are a bit muddied and in flux. You can say that's not helpful, and I'm not going to argue much about that because in that particular case you would be right.

But you can't pretend that I haven't made it clear: I have this pool of six players. You/Vaxkiller/Jin/BTD6/Aeronaut/Aristophanes. I have made it clear that I don't think Vaxkiller's content is scum. I've made it clear I think Secret Agent Jin is scum. I've made it clear that means two scum in You/BTD6/Aeronaut/Aristophanes. I've given my reasons for each to be scum. I've not given so much my reasons each would be town, I'll admit that much. Yet who I'm focusing on and why has been as unambiguous as I can get.

So convince me you wanted something more than that.
I have a lot more to say, about how you're being blind to X Y and Z, but it would help nothing, so I'm stopping here.
And yet this is the exact fucking post I was looking for yet you consistently refused to give me.

You really have nobody but yourself to blame for a scumread on you if you lie and refuse to address even simple concerns. Because there's an alignment which does that.
It aint town.
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Post Post #1390 (isolation #181) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:40 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1371, SirCakez wrote:What's town about it? I don't see it at all.
I don't know what to tell you if you can't see it because it's just so GLARINGLY obvious that I really can't figure out how to present it. Everything. Every thing. The tone, the content, what he's talking about, the sincerity, the validity of his points, the transition from one subject to the next, the way he addressed the points, the subjects he fit into that post, the whole damn thing was just town and if you don't see it I literally don't know what to tell you; there wasn't a shred of scum in that post. It was purely town.
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Post Post #1395 (isolation #182) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:47 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1380, Prism wrote:This would make sense if I ever made any comment as to mastina's alignment at all, except I never did (Hint: I've always assumed they were town) until they claimed where I've made it clear I believe them.
And therein lies the problem. You never did comment on my alignment.

If you said you were ignoring my posts and considering me town, I'd have believed you. I mean, I'd be a bit miffed that you were ignoring my posts, but I'd believe you.
If you said you were ignoring my posts and weren't going to bother trying to sort my alignment, I'd have believed you. I mean, I'd give you a raised eyebrow, going, "...Oh?", intrigued and all, but I wouldn't go disbelieving you altogether.

But as you yourself say, you said you were ignoring my posts and did literally fuckall when it comes to commenting on my alignment, and now you're trying to--AFTER HAVING BEEN CALLED OUT ON IT--claim, "it was all intentional, part of the plan, promise! Swear this was done deliberately, see?"

You understand why that's a tough sell, no?
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Post Post #1397 (isolation #183) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:53 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1386, mastina wrote:So convince me you wanted something more than that.
Let me simplify further:
How does you claiming that you're ignoring me, in your mind, help get my reads clearer?

Explain to me how that works.

What were you expecting my reaction to you ignoring me to be?
I'd already explained my stances.
I'd already explained my reasons.
If you had read my posts, you had seen those stances and reasons and concluded, by your narrative, "that's not good enough".

Okay, so it's not good enough.

Then tell me why the fuck "I'm ignoring mastina" gets you something more productive than, oh...I dunno,
"HEY MASTINA, I COULD USE MORE ON THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF YOUR STANCE/READ/REASON, COULD YOU GIVE THAT TO ME?"

I mean, if I
denied
your request, sure, your stance of "I'm ignoring you" would be justified. If, after you asked me the above, I failed to give you any sort of progression, I could understand ignoring me. And then I wouldn't complain! It'd be a LOGICAL consequence of my illogical action, and that would be me.

But tell me how the fuck "I'm ignoring mastina" was expected to give you something better than "Hey, mastina, I could use more on...", because I call bullshit on the idea that the former could possibly be more productive than the latter as a FIRST response.
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Post Post #1404 (isolation #184) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:07 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1388, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:mastin explain
You made that claim early in the game,
prior
to reading my theory stuff.

After you read my theory stuff, and after we had interacted in-thread, can you say you would have made that post?

Because...
In post 1270, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Then you look at my history and you'll see like an 8 hour block of me reading all of Mastins work on her accounts and wiki pages. I essentially crash coursed how to be a better player in general, improved 10fold and now I don't think a single person thinks I'm scum anymore because I've been actually able to good post now that I know how to be an effective player getting my points across.
In post 1271, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:This isn't about the game but seriously gotta thank Mastin for her hard work. It's helped me grow immensely and she should feel the love for what she puts into the community to improve the player base as a whole
...This certainly suggests otherwise. While I'll link to theorycrafting I've done before, whenever I do so I almost always include the disclaimer that "Your mileage may vary on this", "this is some pretty common sense, I'm not unique in having said it", "some of this stuff is old and obsolete, or was of questionable validity to begin with", and the like. I will say exactly why it's NOT perfect, why it should be taken with grains of salt.

And while I'll brag about my scumgame any ol' day, I don't go bragging about my towngame. My scumgame? Probably in the top ten players on mafiascum. THERE I have an ego, sure, yeah. I'll admit it fully that in terms of being a scumfuck, I have an ego, because I see being scum like being a supervillain. Supervillains are defined as having an ego. So THERE, I will say I am good, because yeah I know I am.

Not so much as town. Nobody knows how much I suck more than I do. I might (MIGHT) be in the top 10% of town players on the site--but if so, only because of how shitty town players across the site are. And I'd still be in the lower percentile. And worth mentioning: we have 19694 members. Yeah, not all of them are active; yeah, that includes alts and hydras. Butstill, top 10% would still mean that there are potentially up to 200 players on our site (by my mental math anyway) who're better than I am. Not the hallmark of a great town player. Not the realm of someone who has an ego.

If I actually had the accuracy rate to back me, I could afford to have an ego: "I'm good, I KNOW I'm good, so it doesn't matter if it looks like arrogance, I know I'm good anyway so I'm probably right even when I'm wrong!". But since I don't? I suck, I know I suck, so it absolutely matters and while I can display confidence when I hold it, I absolutely need to be honest when I do not, because I'm wrong even when I'm right.


And right now, I feel like I'm wrong yet I'm pushing anyway because there's really nothing else you can do. I lack confidence. I have three choices: quit the game and give up. Stay in the background and hope on some unspecified future date that things get better and I gain it back. Or, in spite of knowing I'm probably wrong, push and see if that push gives anything productive.

I like option number three.
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Post Post #1406 (isolation #185) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1393, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Can we just get rid of SAJ as a compromise?
Fuck yes we can!
Would love it.
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Post Post #1412 (isolation #186) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:16 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1399, Prism wrote:It's fundamentally
not worth it.
Is it fundamentally not worth it if, say, we both survive to see lylo?

What happens then?

And yes I know scum should kill me but who the fuck knows maybe they don't specifically because I am wrong.

Did that thought ever once cross your mind?

That maybe, just maybe, me being wrong would keep me alive to see lylo, and that you being kept alive to see lylo, with me
hounding
on you since D1 could...oh, I dunno...cost you the whole fucking game?

Because that seems like an important thought to have.
You bet yer ass I've had it.

So damn straight it's worth it. If you address my concerns now, they won't exist on later days. Pure and simple.
Now, it's true that I could be killed. In that case, you wouldn't need to address my concerns, sure. I'd be dead, and because of my claim, people wouldn't really question why I was dead. But what if I'm not? What if, say, I have doctor protection on me the whole game? What if scum shoot elsewhere the whole game, for whatever reason? (Pine not wanting me dead. Fearing a doc protection on me. My attack on you helping scum out enough that they risk me being alive.)

Those are things which absolutely should be on your mind.

So I'll repeat once more.
Don't fucking ignore me
.
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Post Post #1414 (isolation #187) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:18 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1409, Prism wrote:Even if you're drunk I'd still imagine lynching the mafia to be the most pragmatic approach of all, so persuading others to join you on voting me might assist you in getting that lynch through.
Gin was parodying you if that wasn't clear enough.
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Post Post #1415 (isolation #188) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:21 pm

Post by mastina »

Also,
VOTE: Secret Agent Jin.
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Post Post #1421 (isolation #189) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:44 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1416, Prism wrote:I got tangled up in an ego war which helped no one, and it was largely my fault.
Okay.
So technically, by sharing this secret with you right here in the now, I could be shooting myself in the foot. By saying this right now, I could be opening the door to scum successfully tricking me by mimicking this tactic, by using this against me at some future point in the game.

But I don't care.

You need to listen to this post. Promise you, this is a post you want to listen to, because this isn't about me.
It's about you.

You absolutely have nothing to be ashamed of by entering into an ego war.
Nothing at all.

In fact...that was MY goal all along.

Because ego wars have a funny way of making a player's alignment more obvious to me. I engaged in an early one with drealmerz. I exited with a townread on him. In fact, most of my townreads this game have been from an ego war--Gin I believe I had one. And now, with you, I have had one, and the result as of right now? Is, in fact, a townread.

I call this the magical power of talking. Just talking. That was why I was talking the way I was during the early parts of the game. It was, in a sense, bait for an ego war: me to show off
my
alignment to everyone, and also, by entering into an ego war, for me to get the alignment of those I debated, those I combated with.

Not all fights need lead to violent, neverending conflict. In fact, most fights resolve with both parties happy at the outcome. Because through the magic of talking, just talking, even--no, ESPECIALLY--in what feels like an ego-fueled rampage, we get to come to a common understanding of each other. You know how in Bleach, Ichigo Kurosaki said that whenever he clashed blades with someone, he just kinda...got to
know
them? That's not some mystical anime protagonist power. It's an actually real thing we do. It's just that instead of fighting with blades, we do it with our works.

We have conflict. We express our viewpoints, our emotions, our baseline beliefs, through these conflicts. And through these conflicts, we can better get to know one another. And from this better knowledge base, from this understanding, we generate increasingly more accurate reads. So to you, what was a useless exchange that helped nobody?

Was quite the opposite to me. It's helped me a lot, and gotten me to be an ally for you. When others come online to read (namely, players like Nacho), they, too, will back me up on this, that you're town. (They already know I'm town.) This exchange showed your alignment. You didn't think it did. But for me, now I see more or less what amounts to a town picture, and not a scum picture.

So you're town. We've gained that much. Talking is an effective scumhunting tactic. The words may get heated, even vitriolic. But they weren't worthless. They had meaning. They had purpose. They had intent. Perhaps not the meaning that you had intended, but existing all the same.
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Post Post #1422 (isolation #190) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:50 pm

Post by mastina »

Like. Let me put it to you this way.
Thanks to this exchange?
I am 100% certain Gin-And-Tonic and Prism are town.
Fuck all my other reads, they can go to hell, you can scrap them all as far as I'm concerned in comparison to this.

Gin is town.
Prism is town.
I am town.
We build the townbloc from there.

We can make assumptions here and there if you'd like.
Fate-town; Nacho-town; dreal-town; Monokuma-town; whatever the fuck you'd like.
I'd have to go over things to give you a better readslist, of thoughts, of the balance of possibilities versus probabilities right now.

I never throw around 100%. Ever. Like, ever ever, will I say that someone is 100% town. That's not a number to be taken lightly. I'm so paranoid of everything, fear being wrong consistently that I never say it. Maybe I say 99.99%, but never absolute 100% and yet, here I am, right now, in the moment, thanks to this exchange telling you: I have no doubt. No fear. No paranoia. No thoughts of them being scum, absolutely none at all.

Not a bluff. Not an exaggeration. Just pure sheer simple townness. That TheRealGin-And-Tonic and Prism are both town, here. I will bet the game on it. I will risk losing because of it. I will put absolute faith in it.

That's not something I say lightly.

And that means it was worth it, wouldn't you say?
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Post Post #1423 (isolation #191) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:54 pm

Post by mastina »

Preliminary readslist would be something like:
TheRealGin-N-Tonic
Prism
-
Fate
-
drealmerz
-
Nachomamma8
-
SirCakez
Vaxkiller
Monokuma
Aeronaut
Aristophanes
-
Secret Agent Jin

But this requires a serious rethink to refine further.
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Post Post #1424 (isolation #192) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:55 pm

Post by mastina »

Forgot BTD6. That'd make it:

TheRealGin-N-Tonic
Prism
-
Fate
-
drealmerz
-
Nachomamma8
-
SirCakez
Vaxkiller
Monokuma
Aeronaut
Aristophanes
BTD6_maker
-
Secret Agent Jin
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Post Post #1448 (isolation #193) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:28 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1427, Vaxkiller wrote:1 shot mason? Fuck taht
Mastina you get one trucking chance so you better not screw it up. If you even think of masoning fate/aero/dreal you can just put that noose back on. Your target dies tonight? Noose
Action failed? Noose
If you ARE town, think hard about your target.
You know, Vax.
You're being stereotypical here.
drealmerz? "Fuck that, mastina's still scum".
SirCakez? "Fuck that, mastina's still scum (but I'll unvote for now)".
You? "Fuck that, mastina's still scum (but I'll unvote for now)".

Stop giving the mastina wagon a bad name!
:P
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Post Post #1455 (isolation #194) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:38 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1433, Fate wrote:You're about as picture-perfect as it gets for scum laying low and keeping their options open
Actually, the player who best fits that description is Secret Agent Jin.
The player who probably second-best fits that description is Aristophanes.
After that...well, you have to divide it up. You're third in terms of keeping options open. BTD6 would probably be third in laying low.
Monokuma is probably fourth in both, though I suppose you could argue third in both with you/BTD6 as fourth in each half. (It's a close race.)

After that, you kinda fail to get anyone laying low and keeping their options open; you can argue that some players might be applicable for one, but they fail the other and the argument for their validity for the one becomes less so. None of Gin (neither), Prism (neither), SirCakez (neither), Nacho (neither), drealmerz (I'd say neither, but at the very least most definitely not keeping his options open), and Aeronaut (neither since his increased activity) all fail to demonstrate those traits.

...Okay, so maybe Vaxkiller qualifies, so maybe you're right. But I'd put him on about the Monokuma level: far from the worst offender (that would be Secret Agent Jin), far from so much as being the second-worst offender, and probably not scum for it: Vaxkiller is always a low-content poster; Defcon showed as much. Vaxkiller is always options-open; Defcon showed as much. If he's scum, then he happens to be scum that was a low-profile, options-open poster, but I don't think he'd be scum because of those traits. I think they're not indicative of his alignment, one way or another. They just...were there.
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Post Post #1460 (isolation #195) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:46 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1451, Nachomamma8 wrote:vax, you are suspecting the claimed mason recruiter
I should point out that technically speaking, there is a tangible difference between a mason recruiter and a masonizer. They sound synonymous, but the difference is: a mason recruiter is already a mason at the beginning of the game. A masonizer becomes a mason upon the success of their action. Meaning, right now I don't have a PT to talk in. (Or if camn's feeling old-fashioned, a QT. My PM did not specify the method.) Also mason recruiters tend to not be restricted; masonizers tend to be restricted. Mason recruiters are more common in games with cults as the anti-cult defense; masonizers tend to be for singleball games. There's more differences than that, I'm sure, but strictly speaking I'm not a mason recruiter; it's masonizer.

Also, fair warning:
Reduced activity for a bit.

My mini normal just filled, so I'm gonna need to focus on modding starting...like, some time today.
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Post Post #1462 (isolation #196) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:48 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1452, Vaxkiller wrote:What would you say to someone who claimed what you claimed at L3?
Given proximity to deadline, size of the wagon on them, stubbornness of the players on them (they refused to budge no matter what to the point where even post-claim they have all thusfar stated their disbelief), and probability of a vig in the game?

I'd call that not being a fucking moron.
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Post Post #1465 (isolation #197) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:53 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1457, Vaxkiller wrote:You really don't think there is ANYTHING suspicious about claiming that at L3, as well as her acting like everyone should town read her for CLAIMING it?
The reason why people should townread me for claiming it is because it's a fucking confirmable role. If I don't confirm it, I get lynched. That simple. And tomorrow, either I'll be dead because the scum don't want an OP role like mine alive, or I'll have my target confirm that, yes, my claim is valid, at which point the options become we're scumbuddies or we're mason buddies. If you think that two of Pine's three scummates go on to claim mason D2, I'm really not sure what to tell you other than "no. Just...no".
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Post Post #1479 (isolation #198) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:07 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1471, Nachomamma8 wrote:camn gave the vig to a town player personally.
That wasn't the impression that I got.
I got the impression that Pine got to draft a member.
Then camn got to draft a member.
Then Pine.
Then camn.
Then Pine got his third, and the rest were all town.
And AFTER the draft, roles were randomly assigned: random distribution of roles across the town, and random distribution of the role for the scum.

I mean, it's basically the only explanation I can think of for camn giving me this role--wouldn't this role be far, far, FAR better suited for, oh...saaaaay, you? Or Fate? Or...like, literally half a dozen players that camn knows in here better than she knows me? (Because as far as I know, camn knows nothing about me?)

Because if camn didn't randomly assign town roles, that would imply she actually had me as one of her top draft choices. Not THE top choice (which would be for the vig), but given the strength of my role, either second or third in all likelihood. And while I told her that Pine would approve of my presence in the game (ironically he sent a PM inviting me AFTER I had already asked camn), and I told her that it basically wouldn't be a Pine game without me, what I said was essentially, "probably as town because mastina-Pine would be OP" and that was it; would she really take my word for it and think I was someone she absolutely HAD to keep away from Pine? And not only keep away from Pine, but be given a highly-sensitive role?
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Post Post #1490 (isolation #199) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:30 am

Post by mastina »

In post 48, mastina wrote:So in the last three months, Pine has played with: drealmerz, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, Secret Agent Jin, drealmerz/Secret Agent Jin again, drealmerz a third time, and Aeronaut.
I only did a quick search, so let me know if I missed any. (Because this is a really fucking huge thing: missing any is problematic towards analysis.)

Knowing this, I can say: pisskop/Aristophanes, SirCakez, Prism, Vaxkiller, and BTD6_maker are all basically conftown. They haven't played with Pine recently as far as I know, and they're too young to have played with Pine in his glory days.

That leaves two/three scum in: Nacho, Fate, Secret Agent Jin, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, Monokuma (Pine might not have played with them, but they're the only hydra in the game and Pine might have drafted them for that reason alone), drealmerz, and Aeronaut.
By the way, for my 200th post, I thought it appropriate to come back to this. You can argue this is invalid, but...thinking about it, I want to say that it holds at least mostly true. SirCakez, I don't think is scum. Prism I definitely think is town. Vaxkiller is a townread at this point, of some unspecified amount. While BTD6_maker remains suspicious, he's less suspicious than others and I don't see the logic behind Pine picking him. (He doesn't stand out as a player.) pisskop/Aristophanes int hat list remains the most probable, but even there, I have my doubts.

So we're left with 2-3 scum in Nacho/Fate (people who should've been top picks), TheRealGin-N-Tonic (town), Secret Agent Jin, Monokuma, drealmerz, and Aeronaut.

If we assume Nacho is town, and also assume Fate is town, then that's 2-3 scum in Jin/Monokuma/drealmerz/Aeronaut.
The biggest factor here to determine is whether Pine picked one of Fate/Nacho and they're playing a top-form scumgame, or if Pine didn't pick one of Fate/Nacho first, and they're both town.

Basically, by reads: I'm making the call--however correct or incorrect--that Prism, Vaxkiller, and SirCakez are hard-town; BTD6_maker and Aristophanes are nullish-to-town; Nacho and Fate are both town; Gin is definitely town. Leaving, Jin/Monokuma/drealmerz/Aeronaut.

By picks, the order I see from Pine would basically be Nacho/Fate/Aeronaut/drealmerz/Gin/Jin/Monokuma/pisskop/Prism/SirCakez/Vaxkiller/BTD6_maker in about that order.

So if we assume Nacho is town. And assume Fate is town. And assume Gin is town. Then by picks we'd get Aeronaut/drealmerz/Jin, with Monokuma on deck for one of these picks (Aeronaut? drealmerz?) being wrong, and pisskop/Aristophanes in the hall in case two are wrong.

So basically, there's a top-five picks of Aeronaut/drealmerz/Aristophanes/Monokuma/Secret Agent Jin.

Those are the lynches for today which I would, at this juncture, call "not objectively terrible", though I think that other forms of analysis might be able to narrow it down even further.
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