Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: IamI

You scumread people who do this, last I heard

[Aj The Epic]

Cloud kicker

You bring up the fact that you have town slipped several times. Why do you think that couldn't have been faked

by scum?

Another read you guys wont buy but ill out it anyway, if flub is mefia he scumsliped cleared me there.

A town to town conversation would go like ''Why do you think that couldn't have been faked?'' or ''Why do you think that you couldn't have faked it?''
A scum to town conversation scumsliping "Why do you think that couldn't have been faked by scum?" implying that scum would be outside me even tho hes talking directly to me. Like saying : Why dont you thing that mafia could have done the same you did (implying as town)?

Read #03 that people will disregard to try to discredit

You know, my issue with you comes straight from the fact that EVERYTHING thus far is just another tool to clear you via some 'slip' that boils down to a phantom of your imagination. You're using fucking semantics to potentially clear yourself? Catching your own 'townslip'?

What you've done isn't indicative of alignment, I'll give you that. However it IS bad play, and at the end of the day it's anti-town. If you ARE town, you're wasting a fuckton of time proving it instead of searching for other scum. This game has 12 other people in it and the person you're most concerned about is the one who's alignment you already know. That's not how you play this game.

So leaving the useless distraction behind, VOTE: Grey

Empty vote post, involvement in discussion is mainly to agitate others while not adding anything. MDS doesn't have any reason to complain about him sheeping the vote but it doesn't excuse his action there either. He's posting to feign substance without actually adding any.

[Aj The Epic]

I'd hope your interest would involve you posting some actual substance.

[Aj The Epic]

Sure, if you're able to provide any reasoning behind it. Your current state of analysis is basically "I see you as scum because you are scum" and nothing more. You've adopted to tunnel on CK and apparently see me pointing out that NIA =/= Good play is 'coaching'. You've confirmbiased the game already.

[Aj The Epic]

You've confirmbiased the game already.

Only town can confbias. You are talking to me like you know I'm town even though you're voting for me.

That only strengthens my scumread on you.

Confbias might've been a wrong choice of wording. Tunneling would be the proper word.

However Confbias can absolutely come from scum (they know the roles from the getgo). It just isn't the correct word for what I asserted.

[Aj The Epic]

There's nothing to double down on. My semantic issue doesn't change my opinion, and you're trying to extrapolate shit that isn't there from it.

[Aj The Epic]

Reactions to wagons are almost entirely meta dependent (aka player dependent). Most experienced players try to make it look identical.

[Aj The Epic]

You've posted like 10 times since IO said anything. Why now?

[Aj The Epic]

How do associative tells not work? Like I know I've been gone for 8 months but how does the community just disregard an entire part of scumhunting? (Asking because this is something I've heard multiple times in like 2 days). They absolutely do work, Grey's just grasping at shit and hoping something sticks.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: AJ

I'm going to have to agree with Kai after reading their accusation.

Gonna say Kai doesn't have a post that justifies your vote, and so far neither do you.

I'm guessing these two lines are independent, but it's also the only possible line that could give reasoning to your vote.

I'm not saying that you should flail all over the thread, but to engage people who're taking issue with your thought processes instead of pretending that they aren't there, then possibly make us aware of how you're reading these things.

Have any questions for me jin?

It sounds like you're obtusely encouraging jin to flail over the thread in this post

With current site meta your best bet really is to ignore scum reads on you unless there's something off on a really fundamental level

Current site meta is a myth. People have an individual meta, the game has it's own phases, but saying 'it's suddenly acceptable to be scummy as shit' defeats the entire purpose of the game. How the hell do you win a game when you rely on someone making a mistake that large?

Certainly even if such a thing did exist, 7 players have new accounts here (though I'm running on the assumption that Culted/Elhabe are alts) and I've missed 8 months of this meta. It's ridiculously inefficient to discount actual scumtells that we've used for years in the light of some fantasy where everyone is allowed to make them.

[Aj The Epic]

Sheeping's just following someone else's vote.

[Aj The Epic]

There are no associative tells between town and anybody, so trying to use them as a method of scumhunting without, you know, having a scum to tie them to really isn't a thing.

Then what's it called when you're assuming someone's mafia and doing association from that? Is

that

confbias or just tunneling?

Cf. Kop in Open 656, bangthemafia in Open 658.

Like I'm not really a hardcore meta crack addict so can we not reference games that no one is going to read until someone asks for outside game examples? Exceptions of course if target audience actually played with you in said game

Psst, guys, jin doesn't want to address the pressure on him until there's an 'actual wagon'.

Who's down to figure out how many votes jin thinks a wagon is?

It sounded more to me like he didn't see any pressure, or at the very least, didn't want us to think he saw pressure.

And he'd be completely correct in not seeing any pressure, as there wasn't any.

[Aj The Epic]

That's some semantics I really could care less for.

[Aj The Epic]

Concurring is literally defined as agreeing.
They are interchangeable synonyms.

[Aj The Epic]

Is the dictionary going to give me a scumread?

[Aj The Epic]

Yes, I thought he was scum because his reaction was bad. No, I didn't ask to be sheeped because *blindly* following on someone else's read is super anti-town.

Pretty much false. Some people just have way too much trust. If you're going to have an issue with it, look for WHY they sheep you. There's a few players on site who like to townbloc as a way to wincon, which basically involves one or two townleaders and a fuckton of sheep. The sheep there just have to make sure they're comfortable with what's going on.

I think when you're calling CK's reactions bad, you're on the wrong road for what was so weird about it. He wasn't actually reacting to much at all, rather his choices to focus on himself was the far stranger part of his entire reaction. Unless we're speaking of 1 and the same thing (CK's calling his own townslip, CK calling himself town off a flip that hadn't happened), i'd like to see exactly what reaction you're referring to.

[Aj The Epic]

Can you quote 99 and, specifically, what is exemplary of your point above?

Yea with relooking at 99 you don't seem to be pushing cloud.
Can I ask your motivation behind post 99 then and what your purpose was of discrediting cloud's townslip beforehand?
And also clarify what you meant by 'stick up for' kairal? Cuz in my mind kairal's trajectory on cloud the first few pages looks pretty transparent, calls out something he thinks is a slip, argues it until the realization that they're probably wrong kicks in and they move on.

Like, why do you think cloud should be taking issue with that?

Psst, guys, jin doesn't want to address the pressure on him until there's an 'actual wagon'.

Who's down to figure out how many votes jin thinks a wagon is?

It sounded more to me like he didn't see any pressure, or at the very least, didn't want us to think he saw pressure.

And he'd be completely correct in not seeing any pressure, as there wasn't any.

A vote doesn't need a paragraph of word vomit beneath it to create pressure.

What are your scumreads, AJ?

Well... it was going to be Grey, Io and Hungry/Happy whatever their name is but then the last five pages happened.

Uh gotta say I like what Grey did though. I was thinking the "same alignment modconfirmed CK/MDS" thing had a lot of flaws, but the context of it being a bait does more than redeem it. No way a mod blatantly tells another town player they're voting a town player as the reason for their replace out. I think massive kinda gave himself away.

Ergo I think the only proper assumption is massive to have been duped. I was about to say Jin's vote felt contrived but I think he missed the entire point of what Grey did.

What I can say is CK (and replacement), MDS do look town given prior actions. Culted does as well. I feel Jin is a bit oblivious but probably oblivious without any malicious intention. Whoever replaced Kai is town too. I think I'm willing to view Grey as town as since his early vote, nothing he's done has had any other motive.

given that

unvote

Happy/Hungry, Massive and Io then would be the three scummiest.

Hungry... Is the least convincing of those for scum, as it was more his AtE post made me look sideways. I haven't really looked into his posts much this game though, so it's really not fair to act as if he's on the same level as massive/ Io are for me.

What's massive's wagon count at?

[Aj The Epic]

Wait, Elhabe2 got replaced, Kairal is still here. Kai is still the one I view as basic conf town tho.

[Aj The Epic]

And 'hungry/happy' is actually 'hellooo' for HelloNewman....

His post 79 is fine, calling CK out for congratulating himself on a townslip is all well and good. The only issue is HelloNewman never actually interacts with anyone outside of CK and tunnels a bit that he's scum long after most of us have him as town. I don't mind contradictory viewpoints, but with an unpopular view comes a burden of proof, and I don't think Newman attempts that at all in his post. His reasoning CK is scum doesn't change at all (propped himself up on a townslip) even though he challenges CK multiple times through different wordings for the same thing. As I've said, I feel CK's play there was anti-town (aka looking at himself instead of others) but still NAI. Newman should've been tasked at building a case to actually make something happen rather than just stating he didn't like CK. At that point in time, nothing was happening with CK as a wagon so he either needed to drop it and refocus or force a real reason behind it.

So that's what I've got on Newman for the 4 posts so far.

[Aj The Epic]

Aj the Rubic, why are you scumreading Io btw? I looked through your posts but you never actually mentioned that until now.

Some of it is OMGUS at face value but the unexplained vote on me wasn't good, especially considering she had explained her position on other wagons far more clearly. Dierfire more or less explained it earlier, but it was a vote that made no sense given the post she made it in had other stronger scumreads.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm not entertaining it because my reads aren't bad.

[Aj The Epic]

Saying that implies you think mine are. So are my reads bad or are they fabricated?

That's not mutually exclusive. Ftr, both.

[Aj The Epic]

That doesn't solve the issue of you not explaining shit, nor retroactively explain your decision there. +Grey and I were at odds, so for you to have opposing views like that with no explanation doesn't add up. I'd expect you to focus on that point rather than basically dismiss it altogether for some trifling discussion on CK. In fact, that discussion is basically the closest thing you've had to a pronounced scumread all game outside your unexplained vote.

[Aj The Epic]

Ftr it was 'confbias' and that was just me having issues with definitions. I haven't forgot what tunneling means.

[Aj The Epic]

'Tunneling' is when someone focuses in on one person. This is something that can come from town or scum but more often from scum.

And no, I didn't see him as town. It was mostly an issue of me having been gone and using the wrong word.

[Aj The Epic]

Except you're making a huge deal of wording with someone who hasn't played a game of mafia in 8 months and expecting me to be spot on with vocab.

I expect more than that if you're going to call a case against me. I guarantee that's not how you scumhunt all the time.

[Aj The Epic]

So where's the rest of your case then.

[Aj The Epic]

The issue is, there are three scum reads and... nothing. You're completely full of it if you think that post cast shade at anyone but you, massive and HelloNewman.

[Aj The Epic]

It's almost like I gave Grey a resounding town read and unvoted him.

How long have you been staring at shadows?

[Aj The Epic]

I'm about to enter into finals week, so my activity is going to be maybe one or two posts a day (hopefully... if it's more, that's kinda telling about how much I'm avoiding finals).

Well its blatantly obvious to me who scum is, ill give you a hint, its flubber. He doesnt take much interest in the game until he feels he can strike at an opportune time and argue his way into getting a player lynched. He also, like Massive, doesnt really explain much. He also is just pointing fingers at MDS and pushing the points she is making aside. Its sort of like when you argue with your parents and they say "That doesnt matter, listen to me, i am the parent" he is just deflecting what she says with minimal effort.

So my question for you are 2 fold:

How long did it take you to write this post. There's a large time range from flubber's start to end there. It's actually 50 minutes worth of time.
In this post, it's pretty clear you think Flubber, not massive, is scum. Yet you explicitly say Flubber is scum for doing the same things massive has done. This is by your own admission.

I know you're voting massive, so maybe this is assumed that they're scum together, but your vote took place in 371 (VC not really around so manually checked that). Your lack of vote change suggests you're still concerned with both, but you don't mention massive really at all other than as a point of comparison.

If massive is mafia, Flubber could be a partner. Otherwise, not sure. I don't think he looked like an easily mislynchable low-hanging fruit at that time.

Not sure I agree with this, simply on the basis that Flubber doesn't push it when there are points to be scored, and kinda shows up erratically at awkward times to push Massive's wagon. Assuming no time constrains (which, obviously isn't true), his BEST TIME to push this bus would've been right around when the discussion about CK/MDS alignment sameness reached a peak. Max investment in town read at the time.

I'm towards the opinion that Flubber obviously has some constrained windows (due to his post style of being so heavy and then completely absent) so maybe that theory won't hold as much weight. However, there was plenty of chances to push that wagon at a better time. It doesn't seem to be a good scum ploy to sit an RVS vote and intend to bus off that vote with minimal effort. Least amount of town points that can ever be gained for a bus, really. An inactive participant on a wagon with participation coming off RVS isn't going to buy much.

Under the circumstances, I think a massive scum flip would prove Flubber inno basically because this is terrible execution for a bus.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: HelloNewman

Specifically no one's asked that just asking why and I've sadi that 2 or 3 times now and no one pays attention to any of it.
Specifically though it was 298 and the 2nd paragraph which was something I hadn't notice and really I've always had the philosophy that, that kind of behavior/posting can come from scum which is what Aj was doing.

I know Kai and MDS addressed this and MDS is going with NAI, but the issue that Io cannot put together a part she saw from Kai as her reason for vote is awful. It's not a case of confusing this shit backwards, she claimed Kai had the reason for her vote BEFORE Kai posted that. Which is why this is particularly weak. The post she references from Kairal gave one scenario where I'm scum (where I watch people push the Cloud lynch for me and then say "i told you so afterwards' and 2 that made no sense for scum (TownCK and Scum me, both scum). To say "that behavior is what scum does" and not specify what THAT is, is the major issue with Io's post in general. She can't even come up with a reason on her own why I'm scum to her and hasn't been able to do so in 100s of posts.

[Aj The Epic]

And 'hungry/happy' is actually 'hellooo' for HelloNewman....

His post 79 is fine, calling CK out for congratulating himself on a townslip is all well and good. The only issue is HelloNewman never actually interacts with anyone outside of CK and tunnels a bit that he's scum long after most of us have him as town. I don't mind contradictory viewpoints, but with an unpopular view comes a burden of proof, and I don't think Newman attempts that at all in his post. His reasoning CK is scum doesn't change at all (propped himself up on a townslip) even though he challenges CK multiple times through different wordings for the same thing. As I've said, I feel CK's play there was anti-town (aka looking at himself instead of others) but still NAI. Newman should've been tasked at building a case to actually make something happen rather than just stating he didn't like CK. At that point in time, nothing was happening with CK as a wagon so he either needed to drop it and refocus or force a real reason behind it.

So that's what I've got on Newman for the 4 posts so far.

It's not sheeping if you're the first one to point it out. And I'm not going to beat a dead horse about why his posts coming back weren't good.

[Aj The Epic]

Io, ignoring that for now, what are your thoughts on the massive/Newman/Flub situation?

Well situation implies they are connected which they certainly aren't.

Newman's town but the scummiest of the group solely, not that he had other content, from the push that the only way Cloud could have been replaced is if he was Mafia hard bussing. His reason for the initial tunnel was also pretty trash with it just being that he claimed scum which no one should even take seriously. The other part of his scum read of Cloud that they were overly pushing the town slip was OK and a valid argument I think. The reason I think he's not scum pushing for 2 mislynches, as he's pushing to lynch both of you, is just because of how genuine he is in the push itself. He is stubborn, but not scum.

Flubber I just don't really know about to be honest. He shares no read with me, and was very quick to town read AJ who I think is scum. Leaning scum though which would make me think Massive is town because he's done a few quick jabs on him, 2 and the RVS.

Side note, I'm not even that confident you are town either. I'm getting the Aj & Culted scum team vibe with wither Mini or Flubber
Culted just really doesn't ever talk about AJ unless it was asking me to explain the AJ scum read, which Culted also said that other people asked so I don't see why Culted would have felt the need to talk about it. Then the only times he talked about you was at the very beginning asking for a read, something which I personally just notice a lot of scum do to partners they feel wont be too active or slightly scummy, then later on the talked about you and Flubber being TvT which is what is making me think one of you are scum. Culted is mostly a slight scum read for the lack of interactions with my stronger scum read and their overly nice behavior also just kind of feels disgenuine.
Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and it's not like I really disagree with you a ton. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

And yet your strong scum read has no explanation backing it and you haven't addressed your own blunder (the 'time traveler' issue). Your entire scum/town read is based on an idea that I'm scum, who you've yet to give a reason for in 400 in-game posts. Now associative tells are cool and all but they require a flip, and you're so very far off base to begin with that you've drawn up three additional possible scum reads with no flip and no stated reason on why you think I'm scum. You've already called out an entire group to lynch through, day 1, no flips on 'associative tells'.

Also your post serves to have another contradiction. In the first line, you state Newman is the scummiest of the group, but town. Then you state Flubber is scum, who was part of the three in the first group. Actually through your entire post, you waffle on this scum/town read on Flubber. You don't have a definitive opinion on him, and basically go from town to scum in all the shades of the rainbow in one post.

Lastly, burden of proof's on you to EXPLAIN some of this. You've got some reads that are unpopular. Really, as I've stated, this starts with you explaining why I'm scum, and then showing interactions if associative tells are really your only shows altogether.

[Aj The Epic]

"In the first line, you state Newman is the scummiest of the group, but town." - Literally not a contradiction, you read the first line then stopped. If you would have bothered to continue reading you would have seen the explanation as to why he is bad and why the only scummy thing he did was tunnel.
"You don't have a definitive opinion on him" - Slight scum

No no no. You don't get a clear on ANY of this shit for that garbage.

You state NEWMAN is the scummiest of them and THEN state Flubber is the most likely partner to a Culted/Aj scum team, which is CURRENTLY the only scum you're really entertaining.

Time traveling issue: You used a post of Kairal's to justify your reason for my vote that happened AFTER YOUR VOTE. The post simply DID NOT EXIST when you voted me and claimed Kairal had the reason for you. And you stated it IN THE VOTE POST so it's not a misread.

And no, you HAVEN'T addressed why I'm scum. I'm paying more attention to you than anyone else in the game right now, don't you pretend I'm not reading everything you say. You have NOT justified it and have ignored every query thus far. Point me to it then if I've missed it, you certainly have had the opportunity.

[Aj The Epic]

Starting the final's gauntlet so this is mostly a prodge.

If massive flips scum, she would be less suspicious, not more.

Scum have more motive to defend town than their buddies.

I just finished a game where scum played like you're suggesting. She succeeded in buying town cred but because she never tried to throw suspicion or defend her scum buddy she lost by process of elimination. Scum want to look town but at some point have to start playing towards a scum objective or else they too will find themselves losing from PoE. In this case massive is a possible but not certain lynch - exactly the time for scum buddies to come forward and try to shift the wagon elsewhere. That's why I think Io is a likely scum buddy for massive. That said obviously you vote the person you think is actually scum and then look for buddies later. Thus I'm voting massive and simply pointing out Io's interaction in case I don't make it to tomorrow.

Scum doesn't necessarily have to do something scummy, they just eventually will have to be wrong. But as this is expected, it IS possible to play a perfectly town game as scum, they'd just end up with a few mislynches here or there.

[Aj The Epic]

Yes and no. massive's attacks don't answer MDS' original assertion.

One more final. Nearly done. Also apathy, please let's end this day soon.

[Aj The Epic]

So you're somewhat of the opinion that newman is lying, but want to lynch massive who believes Newman/MDS is a team possibility (and you agreed with his logic). Any specific reason, or you just think MDS is too likely to be town to warrant worrying about massive's belief.

[Aj The Epic]

Nah all we really gotta do is check on him tomorrow and make him prove he's a cop. We got time.

[Aj The Epic]

Oh and btw

VOTE: Io

I think it's about time we visited this one.

[Aj The Epic]

But you just contradicted yourself by complaining we weren't lynching Newman.

[Aj The Epic]

What's up with the IaI vote, Shadow? I don't think you've said anything about him prior.

[Aj The Epic]

Sooo this day isn't starting off well.

VOTE: massive

Massive, you should EASILY realize you lack the kind of support for an MDS wagon right now. To hop back on it seems like a complete and total cop out of the entire game, especially with a naked vote.

[Aj The Epic]

I can't help but notice that Flub and Aj are doing exactly what Io (tacitly) predicted they would be doing. As much as I still think massive is scum, I can't keep that mindset from yesterday and expect to be correct this time after I was already wrong about Io. I seriously need to reread some ISOs, like culted, Aj and maybe IaI in particular.

You realize her suspect list was not only bad, but included you, not IaI.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ the Epic

looking slightly more town for saying the same thing (sorta) in 526 but you just assume he thinks we're scum together; why no investigation into the why there? You practically give him an out which he takes in 527. Were you happy with that answer? Your next post has you shifting gears to Newman and then pushing that ad inf without going back to Jin.

----

I don't have any issue with Dierfire. 656 is good townposting. Also I find his push on Io consistent even if ultimately wrong, which feels good to me.

Simply because my intention with SAJin wasn't to corner him. I didn't think he was scum, but needed an answer to the question regardless. Who am I to go "Yeah you didn't wash dishes"? Newman had been my scum read prior anyways, so I was just refocusing back on where I was.

With Dierfire, his predecessor is in R2R games. They're easier, less pressured and more suiting someone who hasn't played this game for long periods of time. Larger games with a full roster of experienced players can be difficult, so I really don't think being replacing out is anything more than being overwhelmed. I've personally liked Dierfire's posts, and am not going to base suspicions off a replace-out.

[Aj The Epic]

Interesting you didn't include me as a player that would have to be town if Jin is town since I've pushed Jin more than anybody not named culted. Which interestingly enough you didn't mention him either...

Care to explain why?

I'm actually pretty sure Kairal doesn't have a scum read on Jin and I definitely don't (haven't voted for him all game and really haven't floated the idea either).

[Aj The Epic]

I mean, I wouldn't say it's fast so much as there hasn't been a lot of interaction existing today. If you're worried about speed (i've been told this is NAI but I'm not a huge believer of it), the obvious question is IaI who scumreads Dier and is second on the wagon where he could've pushed Dier, Flubber/massive with blind votes. Massive might just be doing it to save himself tho.

[Aj The Epic]

Io's entire scum team was through me. So no.

I don't really get the MDS scum tied to Jin scum, is this based off a belief that MDS wouldn't really give a hard read on Jin?

[Aj The Epic]

So in these kind of situations, it becomes dangerous for the town to just continue using past philosophy. We've effectively had three lynches (I'm considering Newman a lynch protected by a role claim) and missed on all three. Obviously we're not thinking this through right.

IaI, you questioned us all on our want to lynch Dierfire. Outside of Ehable, is there any specific reason? Also, with the Jin vote the only thing I saw in your ISO was that you weren't happy with his joke vote (Which Grey did the post prior). Was it just second on the list/best remaining option?

FWIW I completely agree with Massive that the hammer by Kairal did NOT need to happen, but I've been townreading Kairal as essentially a confirmed town member.

Not feeling a massive lynch anymore. Especially now that it seems like it'd be too easy to push, this is exactly where I'd warn against seeing a wagon form unless we have good reason. Think I'd prefer to look around CK's slot again as Shadowstep's done literally nothing with it since replacing in. We need to hear more from culted because my initial town read is basically stale on that slot (Culted almost didn't post yesterday).

I think looking towards Dier (depending on IaI's response)/Flubber/Shadow area might be best for today. Looking towards, not wagoning. We have two weeks, apathy aside we should burn a decent portion of it.

[Aj The Epic]

Why are you so attached to Io's reads over your own?

[Aj The Epic]

I mean it depends on their acting level. If it was cut and dry, everyone would do it one way or the other. The thing you don't expect is scum to counterclaim or scum to hammer vote after the claim.

[Aj The Epic]

Kairal's still solidly town. It's gonna take more than mild shade throwing to change that for me.

[Aj The Epic]

He avoided lynches against people he agreed with (mostly) and are now all dead.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm not switching to Shadow, it's just his 'attack' on Kairal is weak and is a fish to start a wagon without doing anything himself.

[Aj The Epic]

These are my own reads. They just happen to coincide with hers.

Then I'd like to hear it as your reads going forward. Specifically this is the first instance i think I've heard you declaring these as your own as opposed to just stating Io might be right.

I had read -Grey- over, but I'm not confident in my ability to discern any targets--and even if I were, with no Mafia players dead I'd be very reluctant to put much stock in a "clear" on those grounds.

I assume that -Grey- died because the Mafia players found Jailkeeper a more likely role than Bulletproof. It's also true that not many players were reading -Grey- as Mafia (but due to the claim I'm not quite yet at the point where I start wondering why you and Kairal still live).

Normally a bulletproof comes with a strongman, right? Scum could've figured it was bullshit if they didn't have a corresponding strongman to an infinite shot BP. I don't particularly remember a BP claim but I also don't see any other way to take a BP suggestion under no pressure other than a PR crumb. So the two reasons I would suspect initially is 1) Saw the BP suggest, thought it meant PR crumb or 2) went after a universal town read.

Also, in your 998 you talk about MDS thinking Kairal was suspicious in Newman, and we know she said Kairal is weird for the hammer on Jin, then do you see legitimate reason for MDS to point IaI and Culted over townreading Kairal? I ask because I feel like Shadowstep and MDS may be setting Kairal up to take a fall here, with Shadow pushing and MDS seemingly posturing kairal into a less-than-stellar position.

[Aj The Epic]

Oh you mean the scum read Grey dropped midway through day 1 and didn't re-visit anywhere later in the next 100 posts he made? I appreciate the shade.

[Aj The Epic]

Dierfire, can we talk? I'm pretty convinced you're town at this point and I want to talk about Shadow_step. Specifically with his last post, I'm completely comfortable dropping a scum read on him.

First things off, we got 25 post iso, two of which are pretty much introduction jokes stuff, from a slot that's been here since Day 1 (halfway through). CK still has 3x as much. It wouldn't be so bad if they were full of content, but here's the highest content post he has:

What's up with the IaI vote, Shadow? I don't think you've said anything about him prior.

Reaction test.

I've developed no reads in this games by interacting with other players.
I thought town was going in the correct direction so I just sheeped my town reads basically, the Hello flip just baffled me. Even the way the claimed I couldn't believe it at all. It seemed like it was a last ditch attempt at drawing a CC.
Been pretty crap by my own standards, so I wanted to see how he reacts and how other do to it.

(Now I must confess I can't use the 'post' command. Bare with me)

Spoiler:

• Alright so the first 'real' catchup post is 355, where he states Grey seems upset over losing a 'mislynch' in Grey's spot. It's unspoken, but this suggests Shadow is scumreading Grey here.
  
  
• His next real post is 670, which basically calls Io on her vote for me. By this time, I had called it, as had Kairal (255) and Dierfire (275). Granted, Shadow hadn't replaced in yes (replaces in p345) but the post (167) isn't so far in front of these to not see them, especially mine which came literally the next page. Even then, there has been a lot to happen up until 167 (specifically with CK slot, which he now reads from his conf-alignment view) and doesn't respond to any of it whatsoever. Either he's realized that it isn't particularly relevant for whatever reason (it still was as of 167) or he didn't respond to it for...???
  
  
• 677 Shadow calls Grey scum. As of this post, his vote is still on MDS, but does not move the vote. He's still on his re-read since the respond is Grey's 375. Realizes two posts later Grey was playing a game here. Specifically I find this weird for a few reasons. I think naturally Shadow would unvote MDS IF HE BELIEVED THE LOGIC he uses in 677 (game got a lot easier w/mod confirmed shit). MDS shares alignment, right? Grey's scum complaining about free pass? Natural progression says that vote moves and then comes off in 681 when he reads through the entire sequence.
  
  
• So in 683 we can assume Grey scumread is dropped. Replaces with Newman/Io scumreads. No reason given, votes Newman. Doesn't post at all during Io run up and eventual lynch. Votes off D2 with an IAI vote, who had L-1 on Io, his scum read. No explanation here, it's that awkward re-RVS stage that happened early D2. When called on it, it's the quoted post above (reaction test, no reads...).
  
  
• There's a question put out to massive (p903) (why did he revote newman after claim) but no attempts to revote even after response. Just two irrelevant questions and then 8 IRL days inactivity, coming back with his first interaction with Kairal, asking if Shadow was next on the mislynch list. This:
  

  I think the main thing I want right now is to see a bit more from Shadow.

  Is Kairal's part of the post that prompted Shadow saying:
  

  So it seems I'm your next ml target Kairal?
  I'l get caught up during the weekend.
  Meanwhile what is everyone's read on Kairal?

  It's a pretty severe overreaction. He hasn't mentioned Kairal at all before this post, and suddenly wants 'everyone's read on kairal' for suggesting (completely correctly) that we need to hear more from Shadow. Even considering the longass night 2, it had been just under 80 posts and Shadow at this point had little to no content.
  
  
• 1010 where he highlights the earliest parts of Grey's iso to apparently strike up something against me, even labeling it 'important posts from grey's iso' and then fails to commentate on it at all. All posts are the first 1/6th of Grey's iso, nothing towards later stages.

The issue is we've got no content and the only 2 held reads by Shadow both flipped town. Shadow's overreaction to Kairal and then inability to push anything towards me even though his motives obviously suggest he's thinking about it. I'm slightly baffled by 1010 because I think it's so bad that I can't imagine someone actually trying that as either alignment. Literally the definition of throwing shade, since he wouldn't even VOTE off of it.

VOTE: Shadow_step

I still want to know why you think this slot is town, because there's literally nothing in Shadow's iso to prove it. I'm also pretty sure he's still not caught up, because in one of his posts in the 800 range, he quoted a post from Jhin from the 370 range. This was D2, so he obviously had TIME to read through, but just opted not to. This game is one of the shortest games you could replace into and he didn't get through that.

[Aj The Epic]

I'd be interested in whether you see anything interesting in ISO from CloudKicker; it's true that I was reading alignment from one or two specific data points rather than a trend, but I was feeling pretty good about those data points.

There's nothing in Cloud's ISO that screams scum, but most of his iso is just NAI.

[Aj The Epic]

Do you have a particular opinion about Shadow here, massive? Especially since it sort of pertains to your scumread on kairal.

[Aj The Epic]

That leaves me with 3 in 5. Mini, Aj, Culted, Flubber and Shadow.

Sort of hard to narrow it down any further. Shadow as I've already said looked like someone who wasn't paying attention- his desire to get replaced seems to bear that out. Mini and Aj have both sort of given me a town vibe. It's nothing concrete though.

That leaves culted and flubber. I don't have any huge reason to think they're suspicious I suppose. They both spent a lot of day 1 casting suspicion on Jin. Flubber was pretty keen on a massive lynch but then so was I. Hmm I can't really narrow it down any further right now.

Going to note this: I just had a scum HYDRA replace out of a game in Mylo. It's about as NAI as can be, especially since if a slot is coming under pressure, you'd be hurting your team on either side if you can't be there to answer that.

Mini's 900

Calls jin lynchbait like 5 times and then tosses shade on him for 'copying her reads' in the same post.
One that doesn't make sense and is hedgy as all get out.
Two you basically saw'd flubber for voting jin just because jin has a lynchbait rep.

Terrible look considering that this was when momentum started to shift pretty strongly against jin; feels like trying for towncred on a mislynch but not wanting to kill the traction at the same time.

Agree that it does look odd. MDS has a few oddities of play thus far (specifically the use of Io reads as her own until called on it) but nothing super noticeable besides that. If I'm not mistaken, MDS also did this to Flubber earlier in the game (calling him on sheeping reads). She also calls Jin lynchbait like once (rather than 5x), and the other time is actually a call on Shadow being lynch bait, not SaJ. While her read on Jin is waffled a bit, I think it's more a scumread on her part and a defense against Flubber's accused team of Massive/SaJ/MDS.

The second half of the saj runup was whimsical and if I'd have been around I probably would have embarrassed myself. : 3



massive kinda takes the runup into a more serious zone by being the first person to really try and make a case (at least that day) and gives some pretty OKAY reasons like despite the buzzwords I could follow the thought process on jin seeming more hesitant with voting in certain contexts.

Then good old grey.

And then kairal.

Honestly Grey was really into the Jin lynch. The issue is, no one in the town (outside Jin) really was interested in stopping it. Dierfire in 656 and 935 showed a logical progression that should've had him believing jin as scum (It was conditional on Newman being town, which was found after N1). Everyone voting Jin (other than arguably Kairal) was scumreading Jin. MDS... didn't seem interested in stopping it, and I'm inclined to believe hers was more a scumread on jin than a townread. Shadow doesn't mention Jin once outside a random quote ("how do you know me" essentially). Which really leaves me, who was townreading Jin but didn't really do anything to prevent it. The lynch was going to happen, it's more a question of the hammer time.

[Aj The Epic]

Holy white knight batman. This read on MDS is new for you.

[Aj The Epic]

Home.

Other than that, I'm thinking it's Shadow, Flubber, and one of Massive|MDS.

[Aj The Epic]

Quit being childish. If you're going to burden us by having a replacement, I'm more than willing to act on my scum read and lynch you instead.

[Aj The Epic]

No? Read Newman's initial posts. They were legitimately garbage.

[Aj The Epic]

The other player is AJ. I believe this is our third game together and the fact I have gotten zero suspicion from him despite my terrible reads is causing me some serious concerns. AJ any reason you have not only not suspected me, but also defended me this game? I feel like our other games together you were always after me.

So I know I've been in more than 2 with you, but I only specifically remember a game where you claimed Cop in Mastins' game and got two days more than you ever should've as scum. Other than that, you're normally kinda lurking town. In the first game, I was not only lost but knew right away that you were scum on the first cop claim. You're not really the kind of player I fret about reading. Titus, Pisskop, Ms Marangal and Nacho are the only people I really don't ever feel confident reading.

Lest I remind you that everyone in this game has terrible reads or unproven reads. As of right now, there's no middle ground. And I play by hunting motivations, seeing WHY someone would do something rather than what they've done.

[Aj The Epic]

CK was replaced for playing against his wincon, which is basically invalidated at face value now. Town doesn't know other town is town. Scum CK and scum MDS seems like a longshot unless massive is lying here. And scum CK voting town MDS isn't playing against wincon either. It was a behavioral thing most likely. As far as I'm concerned, shadowslot isn't in the clear yet. MDS is basically confirmed town regardless of Massive's alignment because scum doesn't make that kind of gambit with 2 scum members at no scum flipped.

If we're going with Flubber/Culted/Shadow for now, I want to start with Flubber (for sake of letting BV catch up). He's got interactions with massive that are more helpful, and I haven't really read Culted as scum this game.


As a kinda out-of-game thing, I am interested in what two games you remembered me in, IAI. I think one was with Titus (who replaced in late day 1) and Lunafox, but i don't explicitly remember if you were in that one. Your play was crisp in that mastin2 game but the town should've never let you get away with 2 cops like that. Also the scum team had control of that game all the way through.

[Aj The Epic]

I didn't really like flubbs reaction to CK's faked slips but I think if they are as smart as I think they are they also might of called it and not cared as I would of if I was playing and not in this slot.

Uh .. wait what? CK's

faked

slips?

That + ahmished tell certainly doesn't help how I've been reading Shadow's slot recently.

[Aj The Epic]

How do associative tells not work? Like I know I've been gone for 8 months but how does the community just disregard an entire part of scumhunting? (Asking because this is something I've heard multiple times in like 2 days). They absolutely do work, Grey's just grasping at shit and hoping something sticks.

Where did this post come from? I don't recall anyone mentioning anything on this matter previous (It is entirely possible I might of skimmed over it)

Flubber's post two above it.

[Aj The Epic]

Btw the reason your not seeing me talk about the people who are dead is put simply We know there alignments and I do as well so... it kinda wouldn't be useful to work out my alignment.

And I don't need to work on theirs so I can just use it to reflect on you guys .

Actually, you've mentioned those dead far more than those alive.

[Aj The Epic]

The only issue is HelloNewman has been dead for 2 days, and flipped town.

[Aj The Epic]

Overall, Odd/Even cop combos are insanely powerful, ESPECIALLY in a setup with a JK. The potential to keep a hidden JK protecting an odd/even cop on off nights is pretty high and it forces a double find by scum. I'd expect scum to have a lot of power in that case, but it's at least safe to assume they don't have a role blocker (since Newman would've survived night 1 then). IDK what else scum could get to counter that power swing... no vig means no scum doctor... I guess scum tracker? But like what's the point. Encryptor, I guess, but even that's a weak answer to double cop JK.

[Aj The Epic]

So how far along are the catch ups? Also I think Dierfire and Culted have been out for a while...

[Aj The Epic]

Flubber/Naoimi-Tan are the two I'd feel comfortable lynching today.

[Aj The Epic]

Naomi's pushing Flubber hard. By PoE they're probably both scum. The question is whether this is a plausible bus?

My read of the room is that today's lynch is probably not gonna be anyone other than Naomi, culted or Flubber. The only other push really is massive on me. If I'm right that Naomi, culted and flubber are all scum then surely they'd push for me instead? I mean Naomi has left room to move to a lynch on me so I guess she could later.

The more likely explanation is that one of Flubber and Naomi aren't scum. culted is currently voting Naomi (and was doing so before she replaced out).

Yeah I think it's more likely that Flubber and culted are scum and Naomi is town. The third would have to be Aj, Dier or IamI.

I think it's unlikely to be IamI given the way those Jin votes came out. So it's Dier or Aj and I'm guessing AJ- he's also voting for Naomi which lines up with my scum team theory...

Well anyway these associatives are dumb. The point here is that most scum teams I can think of include culted and flubber but, tentatively, I'm not sure Naomi fits with them.

ROFL so what about you then? You're over there stating people who vote Naomi are scum but you were just casting suspicion on Shadow yourself. Sure you didn't vote, but even after Naomi's replacement, you have Naomi listed as scum with Culted/Flubber, and Dier/Myself/IAI as town. Why all of the sudden are all three of the last set possible scum and naomi your sudden town read?

Extend

[Aj The Epic]

Yes but you won't stop ahmished telling.

[Aj The Epic]

Where you basically call out your past slot owners on their own bad play and try to distance yourself from what they're doing. It's basically confessing they had anti-town motives.

[Aj The Epic]

It's your slot, regardless of their play you should be able to see the motivation behind it because you know everything they do. I replace in a lot. Recently replaced in (finished game, Nhadia's Trial of the Evoker) for some idiot who claimed he was passively a role reflector and got caught in a lie by a fucking mail-man spell. Yeah, that's bad play. However I can't exactly be like "yeah my predecessor is a moron ignore everything he said" because A.) It's my slot and it's still my responsibility and B.) he was town with a RB role so you at least have to understand he was trying to dodge a NK.

[Aj The Epic]

I haven't replaced into a game but out of curiosity if you replaced into CK's spot and he was town... what would you say about his play?

Normally I don't mention my prior's play whatsoever. They're my one constant outside any death flips: I know their role, their alignment and can glean their reasoning. A lot of people advocate reading their prior's iso, I generally avoid it because they probably came under fire for their play and for their reads, so I consider them less reliable overall, even if I accept them as honest opinions. It's very rare that you'll replace into a conftown or really pro-town slot so I normally talk with the current discussion and figure out how fucked the slot is. if it's not getting lynched for certain, I re-read a bit and develop scum reads. If my slot is an issue, I'll claim what I feel is needed.

A few issues I have specifically with this (because yeah, it's pretty common to be frustrated with a replace-in slot [see above: rarely ever viewed as protown]) is Naomi's claim that she does a lot of LAMIST. Yeah, we've seen that. However, CK did the same thing and when we're talking about an ahmished tell, I'd expect that part to bother her a lot less considering these two have very similar play in many aspects concerning how they carry themselves.

That and the fact that I feel a lot of information Naomi has missed has felt intentional. Newman, Grey and Jin were quoted more than anyone else in her reread. Very rarely can a person alive actually account for the person of interest to her questions. More importantly, take the quoted Jin post from last page that she used as an attack on Flubber. Jin's dead and flipped green, making the opinion potentially 'more impactful' to us because we know his alignment. But in the same breath, it's caused Naomi to do nothing more than agree with it instead of offering her own arguments because hey, Jin was honest to god town. I feel as though Naomi isn't telling the truth when she acts like she didn't know Neman/Grey/Jin were dead. Hell, on read throughs, I do ISO people and the corner button to check activity is used often. It would easily trigger that all three had been replaced out or dead. There's just no way that she hasn't realized something's wrong here.

[Aj The Epic]

Flubber's frustration on page 42 is pretty real.

There's nothing saying scum can't be frustrated. Especially since on the next page Flubber claims he's 'apathetic', not frustrated, so I'd question the validity there.

[Aj The Epic]

Honestly while we're at it, he's also voting for me without an actual scum read on me and I'm too apathetic towards it to be shouting you all down about it the way I should be

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah and the fact that you don't get another investigation in that scenario is one of the many reasons your claim is suspect.

[Aj The Epic]

You're pretty adamant about that massive's claim is good. I see like 3 different reasons it could be bullshit.

1.) Scum haven't shown a power role capable of countering (RB, though I guess GF could exist)
2.) Massive doesn't have to clear another person before LYLO if we mislynch today. Ergo, if scum wants to perfect game it, this is a good option to get a likely lynch 'cleared'
3.) The reveal was pointless. At no pressure to lynch either MDS or Massive, he reveals cop?

[Aj The Epic]

1) How do we know they don't have an RB? Without any flips we have no way of knowing what scum do or don't have.

2) How is this beneficial to scum massive? He'd obviously prefer to produce a 'guilty' result on lylo to get a win.

3) If he waited past today it'd be lylo and it would become hard to believe. Scum could counterclaim and make it a 50/50 (and generally I'd say people will lynch the original claimaint rather than the counter)

But really why risk dying (given that he can't be sure we don't actually have an even cop) for the benefit of... clearing two people who weren't likely to be lynched today anyway. As you note there was no pressure.

1) We don't 'know' but if they did, they would've RB'd Newman N1 and forced him into some serious hot water. We can't even assume that 'oh it got jailkept' because they just straight shot newman instead.

2) No, in LYLO no one believes an unclaimed cop result with just one result in total. Gambit is risky here but completely garbage in LYLO.

3) You're investing pretty heavily on him being town to justify this argument. In case he was considering that, town!massive would have crumbed it earlier.

The substance of your 1) argument seems to be that it would be too townsided if massive were a cop. A Jailkeeper, and odd/even cops doesn't seem that strong to me. For comparison a recently finished Mini game had a jailkeeper, tracker, one shot bulletproof and a neighborizor. Scum had a one shot tracker and a one shot ninja to counter.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68714

Maybe I'm just underestimating the value of our roles or something but it seems like it would be balanced fine if mafia had a tracker or something to help them find the JK. Or maybe a strongman to shoot through it if the JK is protecting claimed cops.

That setup is actually far weaker than JK double off night cop. Tracker has pure counter in Ninja, JK has more chance to hit town PRs, neighborizor in general is a rather weak role because it relies on A) Neighborizor being townread and B) Neighborizior not hitting scum and getting influenced. Admittedly 1-shot Ninja isn't a great consistent counter but realize that a tracker is normally weaker than a cop (aka in that game it had a 1/12 chance of tracking the actual kill, where a cop has a 1/4 chance of finding scum in this size game).

My guess is if scum doesn't have a RB, they'll have a GF then. There's almost no case where scum doesn't have a pure counter to an investigative role and cops are countered by sanity, role block, Godfather, Miller... I think that's it. In Normals, I believe sanity isn't allowed, and I've already expressed why I'm confident RB doesn't exist. Miller proper play is to claim early.

Town also lost that game you pulled up, so it kinda reinforces my idea that the town was a bit weak. It was still stronger than the scum team, marginally, but Neighborizer has a potential negative utility to it.

I feel as though Naomi isn't telling the truth when she acts like she didn't know Neman/Grey/Jin were dead

Okay I dislike this comment for the following 2 reasons; Firstly The only person I didn't know was dead and included in my read lists was newman. Who was removed upon you pointing it out and the reason they was thought as alive was beacuse I copied the alive player list to my note pad and they haddn't been removed at the time (thus my comment)

Secondly you imply that I was including more dead people in my big read lists than I was.

I haven't replaced into a game but out of curiosity if you replaced into CK's spot and he was town... what would you say about his play?

A few issues I have specifically with this (because yeah, it's pretty common to be frustrated with a replace-in slot [see above: rarely ever viewed as protown]) is Naomi's claim that she does a lot of LAMIST. Yeah, we've seen that. However, CK did the same thing and when we're talking about an ahmished tell, I'd expect that part to bother her a lot less considering these two have very similar play in many aspects concerning how they carry themselves.

You may think our play styles are closer but that doesn't change the fact she did really dumb things. You'd have to be silly to think that her play wasn't bad. heck the mod replaced her for not playing to her wincon!

Do i look like i give a shit, antagonize me more now youre 1 lynch away to get owned all game gratz

Im pretty sure this needs to die.

Why are you town?

??? Only Newman?

P-edit: Shadow asked for replacement due to his own inactivity. However he did it at a bad time (kairal and I had an issue with his post around 950-1010 areas)

[Aj The Epic]

Quote it, I don't recall it.

[Aj The Epic]

Ok this is getting ridiculous.

AJ do you agree that in order for massive to claim this he has to know he won't be countered? If so how can be sure that there actually isn't an even cop but that we will believe there is one? If he can't be sure why is he pulling a high risk gambit?

Provide a satisfactory answer for these questions and I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea that massive is scum. However the more you string this suspicioun out without good answers the scummier it looks.

Without a good answer? With you judging? May I point out that I've given you plenty of reasoning above that you just blatantly ignored. For what it's worth I doubt scum would go after a claimed cop, especially one that has so very little chance of ever getting another result.

Massive makes the claim as scum with two reasons: He feels his lynch is inevitable (be it today or tomorrow) and scum don't have a role that counters a cop. As stated before, there's 0 reason scum wouldn't have roles to counter a cop in the event of their being two cops. If they don't have that, it's an easy claim to make.

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

The thing is that we never got a scum anywhere near a lynch Day 1. Scum don't need to push hard (and are gonna look bad on the flip if they do). I don't think Flubs play day 1 was inconsistent with your third scenario

You're either far too confident on massive being town or you have additional information.

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

[Aj The Epic]

Kairal, beginning of the day you aren't an option, nor is Culted really. At least, not before massive/flubber and probably shadow.

I don't believe grey makes a play to JK newman. Grey knows Newman needs a result to show that he's town and Grey won't interfere with that. Even if Grey protects Newman and no kill comes through, was it newman making the kill or was scum trying to kill newman? More importantly, a JK blocking newman doesn't stop a RB from doing the same and scum killing elsewhere/testing that BP claim. I'm not sure how many players in this game would miss this crucial piece: Newman NEEDED a clear/indictment if he were to survive D2. Pretty sure it's near 0.

Sure no one's going to believe a cop claim in LYLO without a crumb. But in this case, what's actually the difference? He doesn't have to produce another read until the day after tomorrow, and scum could gambit that that day never happens or that his cop just conveniently dies. And if I'm not mistaken, even getting that far still represents lylo for town. To which the game is cleared before a third clear is ever made. Do you see why this claim is so incredibly suspect?

Do I want to lynch massive? Yes. More than I did before the claim. I'm nigh positive it's a fake claim because the context around it isn't good. However, as of right now I'd prefer Naomi because there are provable contradictions in what she's said. My question on massive is a claim that is so incredibly suspect that should I have the ability to afford a lynch, I'd be lynching him. But to avoid lylo from here on out, we MUST lynch scum today.

[Aj The Epic]

Ok this is getting ridiculous.

AJ do you agree that in order for massive to claim this he has to know he won't be countered? If so how can be sure that there actually isn't an even cop but that we will believe there is one? If he can't be sure why is he pulling a high risk gambit?

Provide a satisfactory answer for these questions and I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea that massive is scum. However the more you string this suspicioun out without good answers the scummier it looks.

Without a good answer? With you judging? May I point out that I've given you plenty of reasoning above that you just blatantly ignored. For what it's worth I doubt scum would go after a claimed cop, especially one that has so very little chance of ever getting another result.

Massive makes the claim as scum with two reasons: He feels his lynch is inevitable (be it today or tomorrow) and scum don't have a role that counters a cop. As stated before, there's 0 reason scum wouldn't have roles to counter a cop in the event of their being two cops. If they don't have that, it's an easy claim to make.

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

The thing is that we never got a scum anywhere near a lynch Day 1. Scum don't need to push hard (and are gonna look bad on the flip if they do). I don't think Flubs play day 1 was inconsistent with your third scenario

You're either far too confident on massive being town or you have additional information.

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

I'm very close to voting this slot as well.

I've seen a number of games mentioned now with odd and even cops. Please list a few with one or the other. Otherwise your doubt casting is scummy as all get out.

Restrictions on from where on site (mini norms/outside)? Because I think the last game I played on site only had one, but it was a large theme with a lot of power on both sides. (In fact, it's really not uncommon in Large theme games...)

I'm ok with that and am in fact already voting it. AJ any chance I could persuade you to a flubber lynch?

I'm ok with lynching Flubber, he's still second/third on my reads list.

[Aj The Epic]

So I don't remember wtf a party animal is but

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=64736

Ended up losing because FA played pretty well and bussed a good bit. RCB claims it was a bit scum sided in post game notes, so take it as you will. We still got to 4 person MYLO.

I don't have any more in my personal game list (At least, I stopped looking) but I don't see why this claim wouldn't warrant suspicion.

I'm also not claiming until BV decides that this is the way we're going.

[Aj The Epic]

As opposed to I am Innocent? Ask him about his cop claim.

Do you disagree that now is the optimal time to mass-claim? Do you think leaving it until a possible lylo is a better strategy?

No, I didn't notice we started.

I'd be a VT as well.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah culted fits really well in a team with flubber and massive. I'm moving my vote there, though again I'm pretty ok with a flubber vote too.

VOTE: Culted

If you're going with that pool, Massive or Flubber first please. Culted is the least suspect imo.

[Aj The Epic]

FWIW massive has to die N4 if he's town. Assuming we get that far, there's that option left available.

Lemme check VC to make sure I'm not hammering/sending to l-1

[Aj The Epic]

So As far as I can tell:

Karial: Massive, Culted
Flubber: Kairal
Naomi: Me

It's most likely wrong but I don't think I saw a vote from Dier/IaI/BV anywhere and Flubber unvoted.... Naomi SHOULD have a vote? From shadow slot I think, and that would also probably be on Kairal. I'll go check again

VOTE: Flubber

[Aj The Epic]

Ok Naomi/Shadow both have not voted today so I think the VC's correct.

[Aj The Epic]

How does his revote make sense in this context, dier? I still don't get this part.

[Aj The Epic]

There had been like four unvotes. If he was in serious disbelief, wouldn't he have to counterclaim there?

[Aj The Epic]

No. Cop already is out of flavor due to power, and so limiting a cop by making him even-night only made sense. Making two didn't make sense, especially since Newman didn't actually say he was an odd-night cop -- just a cop. It wasn't until the Io wagon really ramped up that I considered he might be my counterpart, but my vote was already there and I figured that scum wouldn't put it together. (Part of me is trying to figure out how relevant that is.)

I didn't see Newman only claimed Cop at first so I understand that part now. My current question was why didn't you counter claim? Or did you suspect that he might just be even?

As far as I know, you're voting Kairal, not Naomi, right now. I'd definitely prefer a Naomi lynch but there's currently no help there.

[Aj The Epic]

*suspect he might be odd w/e

[Aj The Epic]

...This is going to be an issue, Kairal. You're playing both sides of it and coming out with no conclusion. If you're going to play the game of "massive/flubber interact like this so they can/cannot have the same alignment", the second part needs to be more definitive. Remember that right now you're trying to have a flubber lynch so you can't really afford to be indecisive here.

[Aj The Epic]

If you're going to say you're not scumreading Flubber/culted/massive, I'm gonna want a new reads list from you.

[Aj The Epic]

...What? You went from people off wagons to now people on wagons

[Aj The Epic]

Christ that looks like my middle school science fair project.

[Aj The Epic]

No, I'm not really that impressed with the methodology. The basis of your hunt here (scum will not vote with other scum on any wagon) isn't necessarily guaranteed. Certainly as a way to 'reform' your entire reads list, this isn't a good start. Your entire basis has nothing necessitating it to be correct in the first place which means that it's likely to be flawed even from a math standpoint, before we get to the fact that through the entire thing, your own reads and the interactions of those involved play very little part.

[Aj The Epic]

Quite the opposite. I think scum completely avoided it.

[Aj The Epic]

Naomi, Flubber, you|massive

[Aj The Epic]

>1 of them is bussing

You seem oddly confident for someone who basically drew their reads out of a hat.

[Aj The Epic]

God I'm actually super uncomfortable with your last page of posts.

This:

Ok so my main scumread on culted comes from him hving useful interactions for a scum team with Flubber and massive. I'm not scum reading either of them right now it's a little hard to justify a culted read.

To this:

Hmm so both Aj and Naomi are ok with a flubber vote. I guess one of them is bussing. Fine with me!

Speaks for itself.

Outside of that, there are multiple problems at play.

First, you're manufacturing reads and dropping your old ones entirely for no good reason. It's not natural at all.
Second, the method to develop your reads is flawed. It relies on flawed logic, it isn't a thorough case study of your own controls (scum won't all vote together, flawed in itself) and it doesn't add anything to pass the 'eye test' (aka how people have actually interacted). Add to it you add basically arbitrary variables and this starts to get scary with you basically looking to paint the results as you want.
Third, the results aren't good. As demonstrated above, you go from "I scum read Flubber" to "I'm not scumreading him for unexplained reasons" to "I'm scumreading him because of his arbitrary on/off tendency on lynch wagons

in relation to other players

. Let me remind you that town can be suspicious about others on their wagon, so it immediately poisons this without additional analysis.

My own conclusion is there's no way in hell these reads you have now could possible be good compared to reads developed through the entire game. Even people who are re-reading and re-accessing have a natural progression (but I didn't notice x, y, z when I first looked through / jin hadn't flipped yet so now I read this post this way). This was a readjustment of you reads that you already had before you started. That's why the on/off declaration of whose scum (even though ANYONE could be with your methods) came up with the results they did even though there's really nothing scientific behind it. Why do you go from Flubber/Culted/Massive -->IAI? to Flubber/Naomi/Me? And now you randomly townread Culted. Enough to tell Naomi off about her read. There is something incredibly wrong with this, and while I can't tell what exactly your end goal with it is, you did this to manufacture new reads to suit you better as opposed to actually believing them. I work with huge sets of data and run all sorts of statistical tests... there's literally nothing in your last page that should instill you with that kind of confidence.

[Aj The Epic]

Before we start: I'm not saying you manipulated the results so much as manufactured them and that the method couldn't produce anything useful if it was able to produce anything at all.

So let me preface this continuation with the following note: The only way I see Kairal doing this as town is having these reads before hand and for whatever reason trying to justify them with handwaving as to not look completely out of place. It... doesn't make a lot of sense to me why he'd do it this way. Here's the thing: One of the major reasons I've townread Kairal for so long is his reads have been fluid, have had natural progression and have made sense, even if they're a bit weak or somewhat waffled (kairal gets talked out of a lot of shit that he really shouldn't...). Especially since kairal wouldn't have a read jump on flubber if it were predetermined. Ergo read the rest of this post with kairal!scum as the control.

My biggest question is why does Kairal keep flubber's read scum after this? We know the two options: Bus, Mislynch. I think bus can make sense here but mislynch lends to a more advantageous scum motive. Kairal scumreads both me and Naomi. At this point, had he decided, he could've convinced massive/myself rather easily to buy into Naomi before Flubber. That scenario assumes Naomi is town to pass the lynch off in the first place. If Flubber was scum with Kairal, Kairal could attempt to drag him into lylo. Course... it doesn't do much, I think Kairal/Flubber would be the next two lynches.

It'd actually have been more natural for Kairal to continue a scum read of flubber from beginning to end in a hard bus. Be adamant about the lynch, gain the most town points. Doing this casts a ton of suspicion on Kairal. And really, removing Culted/IAI/Massive from her scumread list is a lot easier than going through this theatrical display. If Flubber was truly scum, this is a hard lynch to drop under any circumstance for a scum partner. Yet there are, as stated above, ways to do it. If he's town, Kairal could fumble on it, be insecure and not look super gung-ho on the lynch going into lylo for two lynches in a row that just look strange.

The drop of culted as a scum read in and of itself isn't awful. Well. Depends on your definition. Culted had been pressuring kairal pretty hard recently, and IaI, one of Kairal's other beginning scum reads, was/is pressing culted and it seems those two probably don't share an alignment. Had Kairal stated one of the two to be scum, it makes more sense. Picking a side that he believes is probably more useful to the town because it's an opinion and it's someone arguing for/against what's happening. Instead, from the looks of things, Kairal is seeing the entire thing as TvT. The piece of this that's important is culted had started to slip into the null area for a lot of people but IaI so it'd be pretty easy to bust out an easy town read. Is it possible to town read culted? Sure, but I think it's pertinent in 'reaccessing' reads to at least address IaI's point on that. In a way, this read change both follows Kairal's trend of being incredibly easy to persuade but also breaks the mold by not having really put a lot of consideration into it (as I'd argue the entire theory followed suit).

P-edit: Even with it being a response about culted's reads, it doesn't change the fact that culted has been completely dropped from Kairal's scum reads.

As far as I know, Naomi wasn't a strong scum read of Culted prior to this. I've mentioned this is odd that Kairal scumreads both Naomi and I (since we've done nothing but argue with me scumreading her, and my read on CK/Shadow/Naomi has been NAI to scum most of the game). Kairal amends it that he thinks it's TvS in 1467, but does little to explain why or who's the extra person. In fact, it's another written-in mislynch that he ADMITS to. A day away from Lylo he's giving himself a mislynch chance on a 50/50. Let's go back to Flubber being innocent for a moment. IF flubber is innocent, LYLO occurs tomorrow and scum have 3 of the 4 remaining. More than likely, they'd take that bet at a 50/50 between Naomi and I and pull ahead. Hell, they'd only need one person to vote me and then win it, so it's not really a 50/50.

More importantly, Kairal's done zilch for scumreading me all game and only started scumreading Naomi for the short period of time when Shadow came after her to naomi's replace in. And we're to believe off this method he's got a scumread strong enough to believe it on not even full VCA.

If I had to guess, Kairal's indication shows Culted scum, Naomi scum, himself scum. Naomi is biased on my own read of her but unless I'm going to read Dierfire as scum, who's basically unmentioned and a consistent town read of mine, there's not a lot that makes sense from this perspective. Flubber could be scum here and it could just be a poorly executed bus/someone that scum has determined to not live through lylo either. The one flaw is Shadow did toss some shade at Kairal, which doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, though it wasn't followed by a case nor vote so it was just shade. But between this, the Jin incident and some inconsistencies we've seen from Kairal today, I think this is it.

Culted/Kairal/Naomi|Flubber.

VOTE: Kairal

Ultimately though regardless of the method I've landed exactly on who Aj and Naomi claim is their top scum read. Neither of you have any reason to complain about that... if you're town.

...No? My top scum read was Naomi going in. And DAMN RIGHT I have issues with how you got here.

[Aj The Epic]

Address the post and I'll consider giving that shit the time of day. As of right now all it is is serving to get the LYLO game in gear.

[Aj The Epic]

Because I addressed this point before seeing it in my post. That you have a genuine wincondition if Flubber is town with the way you set your reads. You still have a ton of explaining to do on everything I've mentioned.

Why did you think this was a good method?
Why did you fumble your flubber read?
When did you start scum reading Naomi?

And that's before we get to the part of "why even drop your reads entirely for this in the first place?" It's obviously not thorough.

[Aj The Epic]

W/E this sudden change in personality is enough to prove what I've written. I'm going to bed.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ: this is oppertunistic and bad play does not equal Red members. Your right about the logic and the theory (at least I think I didn;t really check as I just want sleep) but it was not the time to push as It did not reflect on their alignment

Both: We should focus on less wildcard lynches today. you may red read each other but the majority is focused on flubs and myself. You should also focus us as the day is all most over and tackle your issues tommorow when we can explore this more in depth without risking a rushed misslynch due to time.

Opportunistic play is absolutely scum. I'm a person who hunts by motive anyways, so of course I'm not really going to agree with this. Kairal's VCA is flawed from the beginning since VCA is normally done over the entirety of the day, not just end of lynches. However, when Kairal suggests I should help him instead of calling him on the bad method, two issues arise. First, I can't actually do VCA. I play with people who do VCA but all I do is make sure it looks right. Secondly, I only call that VCA because that's what it looks closest to. Even VCA will use their own initial reads to benefit their hunt/eliminate certain scenarios. My first issue with Kairal's VCA was it wasn't conclusive. Sure he got results from it, but reading his logic, I didn't get anything close to it. What I got was any single person outside the cleared, cop claim and Kairal himself could be mafia. Not exactly a good way to go, considering now more than ever town reads need to be reinforced.

If you or Flubber is town, particularly you because you brought it up, I want to see you prove this. Mostly, give me a solid reason for your scum reads and stop playing the LAMIST card so much. AKA stop advocating for your own lynch. I don't buy that kind of stuff because it's all a category of WIFOM. To me, it's you or Flubber as the last mafia, which is why I'd prefer to have you two fight to stay alive as opposed to take a 50/50.

snip

First of all: lol @ the idea of me being scum with kairal. Why do you think I'm scum?

I'm also finding it hard to follow the logic that because kairal and iami started pushing me recently but kairal dropped her scumread on me for a decent minute that they don't make sense as scum together.

What is your read on iami independent of me and kairal?
And how does flubber fit in with naomi considering she's mostly just talked about voting him since she replaced in?

I can answer this in about one grouping: I think IaI is town and right. If Kairal was scum with IaI and you're town, doesn't it make sense for Kairal to keep her scumread on you and then not do any of this at all?

Also if you notice, my read with Flubber/Naomi is that one is part of the last spot, not both. There is the chance of it being theatre but it'd be fairly one-sided (I don't think Flubber has acknowledged Naomi at all this game).

[Aj The Epic]

Where are you at in regards to reads?

[Aj The Epic]

I had good vibes about Aj but here he is blatantly refusing to vote for his top scum read because I voted it.

Ok so you're spewing a lot of garbage that isn't true (from the fact that I clearly stated my reads at the end of the post I voted for you in and explained it to you obviously just not reading) but this one's simple.

My biggest scum read prior to this was naomi, not flubber.

[Aj The Epic]

Because at the time, Flubber was the more likely lynch of the two. I am on record stating he wasn't my first choice.

[Aj The Epic]

Naomi if you're going to play with motives I'd like you to read my post on it. This isn't a "Meh my gut tells me ____" scenario.

[Aj The Epic]

I wasn't talking about mine, but rather Kairal's. I see a scenario that he presents that wins him the game as scum. I only really looked for it because the method seemed so bad, but now my point is to highlight this possibility.

Btw how DID flubber end up claiming last?

[Aj The Epic]

...There was no yes/no question there.

[Aj The Epic]

No, it's kinda a failure on the town to not call it earlier. Not that I really expected anything but VT claims with what roles had been revealed. If we had another PR, it was going to end up being a 1v1 with massive.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah he hasn't gotten to the jin lynch.

[Aj The Epic]

Io picked names out of a hat for pre-flip associations with me. Was lynched because of these reads being so dreadful and her inconsistency in where she got them from. She included MDS over flubber fwiw

[Aj The Epic]

Town also pissed me the fuck off that game.

[Aj The Epic]

Like jesus that game pisses me off still. I think that was one of the huge reasons I took a break (other than losing Tarot Mafia, which I still believe I should've won off that fucking vote mistake).

Granted all my meta gets fairly old but Silph Reverse Mafia as scum was one of my 'feisty' games. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=35974

I'm not gonna go out and say "x is my scum tell" but normally I just get sassy when I'm frustrated instead of getting really AtE. One of the reasons I'm not huge into AtE to begin with.

Also that post you pointed out is patently bad play by me (PL focus) and was largely because I didn't understand why Luna (who I think I mentioned plays a lot like Kairal in this game in that both of them get talked out of stuff easy) wasn't getting literally anywhere.

As for why I'm not paranoid of you, it's because I'm 50% accurate reading you thus far when you're scum. Considering I'm like 0% reading Titus correctly when she's town and have never caught Yates even though I've played against his scum game multiple times, it doesn't concern me much.

[Aj The Epic]

The trait to me is scummy. I got into hot water in the other game for similar reasons. You have to have conviction or it looks like you're just allowing yourself to vote whoever.

[Aj The Epic]

Yes. When Flubbs flips red it'll then confirm my theory. I can make associative tells If I'm sure enough of my results. nice try though.

Your theory is IaI is guilty, isnt it? How does Flubber!scum get you there?

@Kairal, it's not really a misrep as there was another post Io had stating "newman is the scummiest of the three" which included flubber, jin/massive, Neman, even though she called all of them town. In the post MDS refers to, MDS is considered Io's third. The issue with Io's read is she based them entirely off of people associated with me, in all cases awkwardly. Culted because we simply didn't talk, flubber? IDK we never agreed and MDS because... I think MDS was an independent scum read.

My current issue is with how convinced you are about me, you choose flubber over me. Hell, you've gone like 4 pages completely convinced of this and mentioning flubber only as a side character here. Yet you remain on him and off of me.

[Aj The Epic]

As far as I know, Naomi wasn't a strong scum read of Culted prior to this. I've mentioned this is odd that Kairal scumreads both Naomi and I (since we've done nothing but argue with me scumreading her, and my read on CK/Shadow/Naomi has been NAI to scum most of the game).

Kairal amends it that he thinks it's TvS in 1467, but does little to explain why or who's the extra person. In fact, it's another written-in mislynch that he ADMITS to. A day away from Lylo he's giving himself a mislynch chance on a 50/50. Let's go back to Flubber being innocent for a moment. IF flubber is innocent, LYLO occurs tomorrow and scum have 3 of the 4 remaining.

More than likely, they'd take that bet at a 50/50 between Naomi and I and pull ahead. Hell, they'd only need one person to vote me and then win it, so it's not really a 50/50.

Do you NOT see my problem here?

[Aj The Epic]

But you are following exactly the path to victory that you claim I am. Lynch me today convince town to lynch Naomi tomorrow.

If you simplify the entire argument that way, anyone with two suspects would be. That's why the entire post was dedicated to showing what I thought the purpose for your reads shift was in the first place.

[Aj The Epic]

Frankly I don't even get what you're trying to say with the bolded. Like it's apparently swaying other people but seems like nonsense to me. The VCA indicates there must be scum in Flubber and Naomi and Naomi and AJ. Therefore either Naomi is scum or you and Flubber are scum. You have succeeded in convincing me that you're protecting Flubber- like really hard. So it seems pretty clear to me that this is a Flubber, AJ scum situation. I suspect culted as the third member because he has also been protecting flubber really hard (incidentally the only two people who are clearly protecting Flubber).

You just said exactly what everyone else is worried about with you. That vca DOESN'T make sense. Like, after this game go talk to someone who does VCA if you want to use it as a method.

[Aj The Epic]

It may be you genuinely believe that. Regardless your reaction makes it very clear to me that I've hit the nail on the head.

Fucking bullshit. You're playing both sides of the coin here.

[Aj The Epic]

You said my belief in your manipulative nature MAY BE GENUINE.

BUT

You're 100% confident I'm scum.

That's not possible. You're playing both sides of the coin by pretending to care while doublespeaking your true feelings.

[Aj The Epic]

In fact it's so transparent I predicted you'd do it. Right before you did.

What you did was essentially say a theatre would clear after you screamed fire into it.

[Aj The Epic]

Anyway the funny thing is that I suspect your anger about this is entirely genuine. You are furious because you got caught out in a game you were easily on track to winning and it's not even by an argument you think makes sense. Surely the most frustrating thing for scum is to be caught out by an argument you think is totally bogus.

Hold on, if I'm 'easily on track to win this', why would I care if a buddy dies? Just force through another LYLO and get the same result.

[Aj The Epic]

Nah good scum will use their genuine emotions to fuel their posts. In my one scum game I got very irate for town with not voting my top scum read. In that case I actually did think he was playing scummy and should have been voted for it. I was actually genuinely frustrated they wouldn't vote him.

You're gonna tell me what good scum would do... with one game of scum under your belt.

IaI's own game he pulled up shows me being this level of frustrated (specifically with Titus and Luna... I went nuclear over the two in the dead thread for that bullshit). I'm not going to self-meta my scum games so go check them yourself if you want to.

Anyway the funny thing is that I suspect your anger about this is entirely genuine. You are furious because you got caught out in a game you were easily on track to winning and it's not even by an argument you think makes sense. Surely the most frustrating thing for scum is to be caught out by an argument you think is totally bogus.

Hold on, if I'm 'easily on track to win this', why would I care if a buddy dies? Just force through another LYLO and get the same result.

Two possible reasons 1) you never intended to vote him in the first place and were simply planning to find a convenient excuse to move your vote elswhere (initially you were going to go shadow but then it became clear you couldn't bring me into LYLO)

2) You didn't think you'd be able to get 2 lynches through without losing a buddy so you planned to bus Flubber your weakest link. Why did you back down? Because I caught your bus. A Flubber scum flip only confirms you scum in my eyes- Now Flubber has to live. YOu could go full on Naomi but hey massive is already voting me. You only need one town vote. So you figured you'd give it a whirl.

Anyway I don't know which it is. I'm not a mindreader after all

Second reason in particular is bullshit. You can check your own reads at the time and see that. I intended to go Shadow/Flubber until your vca case came up.

[Aj The Epic]

That makes me think it is the second reason. You were ok with bussing Flubber until it became clear that you'd be implicated from him being caught scum. What would be a reasonable move to buy you town cred now has the reverse effect.

And no I have no intention of digging through your meta. Firstly because I can confirm you based on Flubber's flip. Secondly because you've recently come back from a long break and may very well be deliberately playing differently. Thirdly because reading games I'm unfamiliar with is an extremely time consuming exercise and I can't be bothered.

Anyway lets isolate what you say is my path to victory tomorrow. We lynch Flubber today and... what he's town? Ok then what?

So then I'd prefer you not try to use meta tells in the first place if you're not gonna do the legwork to see what my meta is.

You can think whichever you want. It won't change my flip nor the fact that I dropped that wagon before you thought I was scum.

[Aj The Epic]

What offer?

[Aj The Epic]

Please start voting town

Freudian slip

[Aj The Epic]

Sure, if he's scum I'm fine there. If he's town, as I've been saying, you've been setting up this 1v1 between Naomi and me in Lylo through your VCA. On NOTHING BUT your VCA. No prior reads or such like that. THAT'S why I have such an issue with this lynch. Given that, I want a different scum flip first.

P-edit: Tried what?

[Aj The Epic]

Why the fuck does flubber add a comma into his quote...?

[Aj The Epic]

...Are you kidding? That's blatant fucking garbage. So you're gonna accept THAT part and go after 'oh he didn't move his vote'?

I mean the entire thing was a fucking joke in the first place but like what the actual fuck.

[Aj The Epic]

You would literally say it made sense if flubber took a shotgun to me and scattered my innards on the ground kairal

[Aj The Epic]

But you know who the scum are so you're just advancing their motives, right?

Kairal I hope you see your inconsistencies here.

[Aj The Epic]

Unfortunately I'll not be here the rest of the day. I'm going to have to VLA through the weekend as I'm training new staff at my job.

VLA until this 15th. Sorry.

I've skimmed the last few posts badly enough to not have any real closing thoughts other than you got my claims if you swing that direction.

[Aj The Epic]

There's a lot of things I'd like to say existed set-up wise here that really prevented us from winning, which is rather unfortunate. Anyways, gg.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't believe he SHOULD'VE been replaced. There's nothing saying he can't vote that way.

[Aj The Epic]

What exactly, though, was the scum team supposed to do given the composition? Like RC+2 goons vs double cop JK is insanely weak.

[Aj The Epic]

There's also a catch-22 of how mafia can deal with it that's overlooked. It's MOD ADDED INFORMATION that changes town perceptions in any sort of way not influenced by the players in the game that bothered me. That in and of itself is

so tilting

to deal with as scum. Then you have to somehow navigate the shit that comes from it.

Also using the fact that we got a cop claim D1 isn't really justification for it. As I explained in the dead PT, I would've loved to have a roleblocker and target out grey night 1. Then what? Newman lives, he has no claims, he either LIES or undergoes some serious suspicion again. Instead, our role does nothing (we know he's telling the truth) and we're just forced to kill him instead of allowing OUR GAIN (the wagon) to benefit us in any meaningful way.

That's really what kinda started to add up by d3. I saw that we had almost no way to win EVEN WITH a perfect game to that point. Flubber dying lost us the game eventually, regardless. MDS clear, another forced kill on massive when he can cop again, and the suspicion that stems that Naomi/CK/S_S share MDS' alignment is really hard to deal with. As I stated in that dead thread, my gambit was to try and win it in a very heavy wifom LYLO. I knew it was 1 for 1 and I don't think culted/Flubber were able to read what I was doing (hey, we ALSO don't get day talk. Which seriously would've been lovely to help flubber out much earlier). Kairal was right to call the attacks, but not right to stick to the analysis. In fact, I'm not sure you really gained much from it.

Talk to Titus in the future if you want to continue with VCA. I'm pretty sure they look for WHEN people vote than anything else. With scum flips, I know VCA starts to look at WHO voted for scum in meaningful situations, who was easily swayed when it got close to meaningful or if they can find a group vote involving that scum. I'm sure I could've survived probably into D6/7 had I not engaged you there but the issue was that the pieces would've eventually fallen into place to incriminate me in an extended game.

[Aj The Epic]

Frankly though I'm not very happy with any of the rest of my play this game. I got far too emotional far too often. The game is too stressful for me. I nearly replaced out several times. I'm not sure I'll be playing any more games- at the very least I intend to take a significant break.

I suggest not. It gets very difficult to play this game after breaks, takes a long time to catch up. I've done it twice and still am not to the level I was before leaving. Was this game stressful? Yeah, but that's partly because I forced that with you. It was my intention to force that 1v1 into a lynch and I actually got pretty stressed over it too (I hate being caught as scum more than anything in this game. it feels downright awful). However I wasn't going to take the loss laying down, so I do apologize for that.

If nothing else, I suggest playing R2R games instead of full on taking a break. They're easier games and more a teaching environment (I used to do them because I could look for general theory trends when people weren't really covering up with WIFOM. It's great for working out stylistic kinks).