Mini 1868 - Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Reflektor]

I haven't bothered trying to break the setup as the vig/gunsmith introduce so much uncertainty, if nobody else wants to try I can later.

VOTE: Tammy

Don't like the opening posts. I'll review your games later to see if this is a me problem but those opening appeals read horrifically.

I've been awake for well over 30 hours and will be in transit for another 7, so you'll have to deal with Nacho for now. He gets to pick the icon, too.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Rereading it's not quite as bad as I thought but I'll keep it.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

It's obvious you know Nacho, that doesn't mean I buy the appeal. Me consulting with him later is a given.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

My reason for scumreading Tammy was wrong.

VOTE: BBMolla

Don't like BBmolla's defense of Tammy in #128. Next vote would probably be Medea or someone with only one post. I haven't slept in nearly 48 hours so I'll tackle page 5 in the morning.

[Reflektor]

That means nacho's chances of being scum just went up even more

So, this is basically an evil mod game, right? Like hey, games aren't hard enough. Scum don't win enough games around here, let's add an extra member. Oh and as if that's not enough, let's make one of them a godfather too. And limit the cop. Yep that sounds just right.

I'm sorry that I didn't warn you about the nature of the game when I signed up; the two big appeals of this game for me were either that 1) I'd have a large chance of rolling scum with Prism and showcasing my skills with a bigger than usual block and a setup that pretty heavily discouraged bussing or 2) I'd roll town in a game where we could solve and lock down the game early and that's just it. I don't think this game is unbalanced. I do think that it is swingy as all hell which is a good thing in this situation; if we can townread 1-2 players who aren't PRs and if scum whiff a kill or fail to kill a PR N1, then we get to make pretty short work of a 4 man scum team and get them complaining about how harshly the odds were stacked against them.

I'm talking some ideas over with Prism now. I want to spend a little time tomorrow focusing on non-massclaim scenarios (should we lynch? shouldn't we lynch?) because there are lots of things that could happen if we don't massclaim today and the worst case scenario if we do massclaim doesn't look too bad at all.

[Reflektor]

Would no lynching today be beneficial? We'd go to night with 13 people. The roles could act and we could maybe start day two with more information. Would that help at all or am I being silly?

Also I'm dwelling. Being home alone is no fun.

If we lynch today, we have the chance of hitting a PR or outing a PR (via hitting scum who claims PR). The best case scenario for lynching seems to be hitting a scummy looking VT unless I'm missing something from what thinking I've done so far, which means that it might be something that we don't want to do unless we decide to massclaim and rush the scum today.

[Reflektor]

Not penguin so I'm skipping all the Tammy questions, unless some of them were directed at me. I imagine it does change things that Tammy's posts were made form the point of view of all investigative roles being one-shots. That WOULD be desperate times.

What does it change?

The only thing it changes in my mind is that if we make it to day three we might not be in terrible shape, but that was also before it was pointed out that gunsmith's actually can give false positives. So, yay we have a cop we can't trust and a gunsmith we could use results to mislynch with. Woo.

Whether or not they're one-shot, we can still lose the game on day two.

(And yeah, I had that melt down privately about the day vig was just gonna shut up about the sky is falling bit.)

We can trust the cop pretty reliably; there's a godfather concern, but that can go out of the window by killing/lynching the godfather (and we have a lot of tools to kill him), whereas the gunsmith having the ability to give out guns/get perfectly reliable townreads is still a strong role; I don't think false positives hurt the role much at all if we play it right.

[Reflektor]

And I know I haven't played in a while, but WTF is with no lynching and mass claiming being bandied about as good ideas this early? Town points for AJ for not buying in.

Have you and Cabd not discussed massclaiming/no lynching as a possibility so far? This is an unconventional setup, and sometimes unconventional setups require a little unconventional playing.
Why does AJ get townpoints for sticking to Mafiascum approved theory?

Gamma Emerald, why would you want to throw in RQS at this point? Are you dissatisfied with the discourse in progress? What was your thought process that mass claiming would be useful?

Okay, so on the playing side of that, you said you have high expectations of this player list. How's that working out from your perspective so far?

Both of these questions seem a little weak to me, but as I'm writing this I realize how long it's been since you've actually played a game so am probably being overly harsh on your entrance. Hi Penguin! It's good to see you again!

[Reflektor]

VOTE: Aj the epic

Scum used to be hard to find

*insert snarky response about you just being bad*

There's really no point in worrying about D2 already. If Vig shoots tonight and misses, then we'll have to mass claim tomorrow. That's about all there is to it.

This is a pretty lame approach, actually; I always thought you were the type that didn't mind a bit of setup speculation but maybe I'm just assuming that because Rubix Cube avatar and puzzles?

Also hi nacho, prism, and tammy

Hi Gamma!

What sucks is if there was a way to use this setup to our advantage in any way, that's one of the hydras I expected to use it or discuss it. I expected that if they were town they'd engage me on it - either to tell me to settle the fuck down there's nothing I can do or to have an idea if there's something to do. (The other is the nacho hydra, but I don't expect him to post in this game before tomorrow at the earliest so I'll wait with bated breath there.)

Penguin's post makes it look like they didn't talk about the setup period (I don't think that she'd dismiss no lynches and massclaiming if they'd discussed the setup as scum), which means that outright dismissing no lynches and massclaiming without thinking about things or asking Cabd about it all does seem kind of strange. I think her opening posts seem kind of stilted but I am also trying to be mindful of this being her first game back in a while and give her a little space to shake that rust off but that still stands out to me.

I also thought about that. We could maybe put a pool of two to three for the two to investigate out of so that we can avoid the investigating oneself thing. The only drawback to directing in a sense is that scum are involved in the direction process and we might have investigatives who just have a good sense of who to investigate?

I understand arguments for directing a possible vig shot; don't really understand why we'd direct investigatives.

The only thing I didn't like about LUV was when he asked me why I seemed so concerned about four scum. Both because the answer speaks for itself

This also stood out to me, especially since you were talking about the possibility that the game ends on Night 2 (I don't agree with the seem thing), but it's also the type of thing that I'm not sure scum would be quick to post if they were thinking about it; I think they'd be excited about having a big scum team and being able to end the game early and wouldn't be asking townies why they're afraid of losing.

Yeah you're shit at reading me

I don't really agree with the RQS thing but you do seem a bit quieter than usual; is there any particular reason for it?

In my experience, scum, who know the alignments, are less likely to have thoroughly read the setup than town. Further, while setup spec can be beneficial, it can also be used as a way to appear busy without really scum hunting.

Your original argument was that people "should" read the setup before signing up and because Tammy didn't do something she should do, she was lying and thus more likely scum (presumably); this argument looks more like "scum read setups less than town". I don't really think either of these things are alignment indicative; and, if it helps you at all coming from someone with experience with Tammy, her not reading setups thoroughly before she begins playing is something she does fairly frequently.

a whole page dedicated to investigating someone who is probably town anyway is wholly a waste of time, you can disagree with me if you want but you're just plain wrong

Agreed!
What do you think of what Persivul brought up wrt Tammy?

if that's nacho you're double wrong

"my reason for scumreading Tammy was wrong"
shame.

What makes my reaction bad and why is it AI?

It is AI because it seems like something scum would do for calculated town brownie-points. It's bad for the same reason.

What is the town motivation for posting it that LUV's going for?

IIRC you talked about some strategies...Madea said those were bad ideas...you voted them. IMO that at least comes close to omgussy. Note that omgussy is an observation, not a charge, as you see omgussy town all the time.

It's a bit more nuanced than that; the reason why Tammy was pushing Penguin is because she wasn't engaging Tammy about those "bad ideas" in particular. I'd expect (and have a wild guess that Tammy probably expects the same thing) that Penguin as town would try to sort out Tammy early since they've played together plenty of times and are friends and all of that good stuff, and I'd also expect that Penguin as town wouldn't expect Tammy to propose horrible plans for breaking the setup, so it'd make sense to question her since it'd be killing two birds with one stone (sort out Tammy, correct bad play/catch something she thought about before). My bigger problem with her post is that she dismissing No Lynching as massclaiming as dumb strategies before it looks like she's thought much about it but Cabd's post implies differently, so maybe he just had some misplaced confidence in dismissing those moves immediately.

The first two points are NAI and the latter is subjective. What felt safe about my first five posts? My lack of an RVS vote? My suggestion?

Maybe the lack of anything alignment indicative? Every comment that you've made so far is a throwaway comment about setup or a neutral observation or a question; if we are going to win this game, we need to lead early, and that means that townies are going to have to start sticking their necks out as far as possible as early as possible. Why are you townreading AJ? Do you have any scumreads/small niggles that have bothered you/things that look kind of weird?

I do feel, having ISO'd LUV, that his posts might have not been the best posts but there has been nothing scummy about him.

UNVOTE:

Why did you decide to ISO LUV? Were you just trying to see what all of the hype was about? What do you think of people who have been pushing LUV now that you've decided there's nothing to see?

Vote: Lil Uzi Vert

[Reflektor]

Oh, and one more thing before I disappear into the night -

KBW, does this game follow Natural Action Resolution? As in, if a gunsmith gifts a gun to someone on the same night they are killed, does the gift go through or no?

[Reflektor]

Your response to LUV's original reaction to my concern about the setup looked like you were leaning on it being a townie reaction. Did I misunderstand that or did you change your mind based on the lack of posting and substance.

I don't think it means anything in particular; I don't understand why town would say it, hence my initial reaction, but after thinking about it a little bit I don't really understand why scum would say it either.

Penguin's second post implies that as well. She said this:

"Given that this was advertised as the open setup it is, I find it weird that anyone wouldn't have done some cursory thinking about the perils of the town:scum ratio, so why go weird about it now that the game has started?"

I thought that implied more that she thought about the setup a little bit, not that they talked about it together. If they didn't talk about it at that point, I find Penguin dismissing no lynch/massclaim ideas immediately to be pretty weird. If they did, then I can see Cabd being (mistakenly) confident about them both being bad moves and I can see Penguin as town trusting him on that. Does that make sense?

[Reflektor]

I understand, the thing is I'm not going to force things. It's not how I like to play. I find that a lot of people on this site don't understand that a lot of stuff is just noise or NAI and tend to end up making something out of nothing as a result, rather than letting things progress naturally.

I am leaning town on AJ because a lot of his posts imply the same attitude I'm feeling towards all of the setup speculation and 99 felt super genuine. I don't have any scum reads at this time.

I understand that approach. I don't think that making something out of nothing is the worst thing in the world as long as you can pull back and see you're making something out of nothing; it's a hell of a lot easier to read a room full of misguided people than it is to read a room where everyone's shuffling their feet and looking at the floor and waiting for someone to do something that really, really stands out.

[Reflektor]

Looking at this there's not much to it, looks like Reflektor is making something out of nothing.
VOTE: Reflektor

Hi Gamma.
I've said more things than just that - do you mind commenting on them?

[Reflektor]

I mean at the very least skim the big ass wall that pedited your vote on us for not having much substance behind our accusations.

[Reflektor]

Right but that means she thought about the setup before hand and still responded to suggestions the way she did, which is the weird thing.

That's what I'm agreeing with you about unless I'm missing something?

[Reflektor]

Or do you disagree with the Cabd influence possibility I brought up?

[Reflektor]

No, I can imagine her trusting a cabd interpretation. I just still think that if Penguin!town had thought about or discussed the setup with cabd, her reaction to the suggestions would be different. The post looks like the setup was not thought about or talked about at all, at the very least from a town perspective.

That makes sense.

What do you think about her second post to me wherein she says that she doesn't have a read on me and that going down a rabbit hole isn't alignment indicative, and basically implies that my opening was suspicious, which then really makes her lack of interaction an even bigger problem? I was kinda expecting you to respond to that post, but you didn't.

The "going down a rabbit hole" thing I thought she was referring to you thinking through about the bad ideas and then talking your way out of them which is problematic because of how immediately dismissive it was but that was something I already touched on. As far as implying that your opening was suspicious, I'm not sure that's what she was getting at. Her "I'd read more into it, but" could also be referring to her going after you for things in the past that aren't really scumtells for you; was waiting for her to clarify that when she came into the thread next.

[Reflektor]

Anything in particular?

Commenting on LUV suspicions would be a nice start.
I just think that your thought process approaching me was a bit weird. You come into the game, you see us making a vote that you don't really like because it doesn't seem well reasoned, you decide to vote us because we made a vote that doesn't seem well reasoned, and then you get pedited by a big wall talking about a number of things and you don't decide to address any of them? Is our vote on BBMolla really the scummiest thing in thread right now?

[Reflektor]

I don't think she's ever gone after me in the past?

One cookie, one scum.

[Reflektor]

offering enough outs so that you don't have to scumread them yourself.

I think that this is a silly worry; if I was scumpartners with Cabd, I'd be confident enough in him being able to worm his way out of trouble where I'd be comfortable enough pushing him and wouldn't need to leave "outs" so I wouldn't have to lynch him later. I don't think I leave outs when pushing my buddies in general.

[Reflektor]

I don't think she's ever gone after me in the past?

One cookie, one scum.

In a face to face resistance game yes she went after me after you led her around. And she scum read me there because my reaction to your suspicion on me in which I was taken aback by the way you went around it was slower than she thought it would be as town after you capitalized on it there and pushed it.

There's nothing similar to this game here. You really are just giving them an out so you don't have to scum read them aren't you? Why do you always have to be fucking scum??? I feel like pieguyn in cap com right now.

There's nothing similar to this game except your interaction with each other; I think sometimes penguin picks up on false signals from you and sometimes fails to pick up on the strong clear ones.

[Reflektor]

Whatever I'm going to bed. Have fun directing the conversation away from your partner.

This just sucks.

It does really, really suck.

[Reflektor]

And I was a little hurt with that last post because I thought that you were engaged and having fun with this game and I thought that we were having fun but now apparently not, but I'm hoping that it's something that will be cleared up after we step away for a little while.

[Reflektor]

And for the record yes, I know that you don't feel that strongly about the scumread on me but I'd expect that it's probably outside circumstances magnifying a small niggling feeling which was booo because I was hoping that this would be like a Westeros instant early townread type of game especially when I felt like I was playing well despite not having much brain power to do so.

[Reflektor]

Actually it's manipulation.

You're wrong, but your wrongness doesn't make me love you any less!

[Reflektor]

Alright hey everyone, this post is going to be split into two parts, one has my original thoughts and one is responding to questions about yesterday.

So far I concur with Tammy's (and Nacho's) points on Medea. In particular, I concur that the town points thrown to Aj were nonsense. My reason that they were second yesterday was that these:

Gamma Emerald, why would you want to throw in RQS at this point? Are you dissatisfied with the discourse in progress? What was your thought process that mass claiming would be useful?

I think our best bet is to just play and convince the vigilante to stay put if we mislynch D1.

Okay, so on the playing side of that, you said you have high expectations of this player list. How's that working out from your perspective so far?

Read as superfluous or lazy to me. Meaningful answers are unlikely to come from either. That said, now having energy and not feeling like walking death, there's more to their posts. I think the "Aj townpoints" are more alignment indicative on their part.

I also strongly dislike the late reaction of #125 to the setup. It reads to me as following Tammy's lead with setup complaints. For all Medea's apparent discussion about breaking the setup, I find it hard to believe that the most helpful thing to tell the town is that.

Aj would likely be my second vote right now, as for someone who hates setup discussion their ISO has hardly anything else. BB is still worth following up on, and I'll explain why in my next post. I currently have no townreads, if I had a gun to my head I'd guess Tammy but my confidence in that is low. Fate needs to start playing mafia.

I'm still doing my own thinking on possible breaks before clogging the thread with it, as it gets in the way of reads more than anything else, but a quick note is that we're really undervaluing our assets. Cop gets true guilties, gunsmith gives true innocents. Ergo, gunsmith investigates townreads, cop scumreads. The innocent for a cop has an 88% chance of being town and the guilty for a gunsmith has a 75% chance of being confirmed, as only one scum will claim cop. Vig kill is more powerful than a mislynch. This is swingy as hell but if we get a good Day 1 lynch off, or even just have a good N1 it's hard to imagine us losing.

I've still got to talk to Nacho about LUV but for now I'm moving our vote to Medea. So far this looks less the LUV I was scum with a few months ago.
VOTE: Medea

[Reflektor]

It's definitely a you problem.

Just talk to your other head. You'll have to wait until tomorrow though.

But I would like for you to explain what about them reads horrifically? Like how do you not read that and go oh that looks like she has experience with my other head, maybe I'll talk to my other head about it? How does that not be a thing that enters your mind at all?

Your tone was fine (though that wasn't my opinion at the time) but the crux of it is/was that I tend to scumread openings that are "Are you town with me? I hope you're town with me." My opening votes are purposely vague for a few reasons. The first is you get more interesting, revealing responses if you leave it open ended. The second is that often I don't have anything hard, and I basically just stared at it and said "Feels scummy/town"

What didn't you like about BB's defense?

Scum tends to find the town a lot easier than the town do, and it pinged me because it was done in a way that stifled a discussion that in my opinion was fruitful. Now, there's votes I like better, explained above.

Looking at this there's not much to it, looks like Reflektor is making something out of nothing.
VOTE: Reflektor

Alchemists don't make good mafia players.

Prism - Why did you realize that your original scum read on me was wrong?

To use your words, I decided it was a me problem. In particular, and please don't take offense to this, is that you seem like a very personal player. Your consecutive posts reinforced this and sold me on it. I doubt that after 4 years that your whole choice of playstyle is AI. Your early appeal likely meant nothing, and even if it does it'll take more time to go over your past games and read it. You also are expecting a lot of deference to Nacho out of me, and that's something I'm not going to give. He recruited me to help his scum game but I'm not deadweight as town. I'll use him, but I don't care if he's God himself. I will have the best reads in the town, and in my hydra, or die trying. The fact that you know him, and presumably have more ideas about what he scumreads, is all the more reason not to just defer to him.

[Reflektor]

I think Fate needs to start playing mafia.

I'll start signing again, all posts from today before the two i just made by Nacho. My read on you, post-discussion, is my first.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I ISOed LUV because of some comments on his posts, so i thought that i would try to see their point of view. People can push whoever they want, if i have a solid read on them (its early D1 so i dont have much reads) then i will chime in but im not going to hard defend someone unless i feel strongly about the person's alignment.

What comments on his posts stood out to you in particular? Do you feel like the people who made those comments were justified or reaching?

[Reflektor]

(because of a mafia-expressed reason ROFL)

I don't actually understand what you mean by this.

[Reflektor]

AJ is town, my apologies. I see Nacho is in Reflektor

Going to need to explain this one. Flipping reads after a revelation that I should try harder is one of my trademark scum moves. I see nothing overtly town in his posts.

shadonra is making blatantly scummy posts and I don't really want to go that route just yet either. Empking is leaning town at the moment

Shadonra has made exactly one post. Empking on the other hand got caught with a case of the biased by LUV.

VOTE: Fate

Probably going to switch back to Medea later but this deserves more attention.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Draws more attention than a voteless post would. Switch back is likely but not a given.

Intent of the line was to convey that I still FoS Medea.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I thought I was the second vote on Fate (hence the "deserves more pressure" but apparently I was the fourth. I'll still leave it.

I'm not sure I'll be able to catch up tonight, I will if I can but otherwise I'm going to wait to see what Nacho says about Medea.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

This post is just going to be responses to questions asked by others, impressions of last few pages coming up next.

Can you elaborate a bit? Because nothing from his entrance on has felt town to me.

I never said he felt town to me either, I only said this looks nothing like the game I played where I was scum with him, which is here.

I'm not quite buying that I'm horrendously lazy here. Grasping at straws, yes; but what better questions do you think I should have been asking? Because you weren't asking any.

The issue with the lazy questions is that I can't see what insight you were trying to gain from them. They seem like questions for the sake of it. I was taking a different approach to the game entirely, and I've explained previously part of why I leave my opening posts so open ended. Another part that was unintentional was that my read on Tammy was shitty and I missed several whole sentences because I was walking death who was well beyond the point of physical exhaustion.

I'm confused by your thought process here. You're voting the person who's on board with your top scum read? See, I tend to think people who need to overexplain their read changes (cough, Indigo, cough) are scummier than casual mind changes. And you think Empking looks scummy through all that?

Agreeing with my scumread, which has a 2/3 chance of being wrong to begin with, is not much of a towntell. It's more than a casual mind change, it's the pretext behind it that I explicitly list as one of my personal go-to tactics, which you're justifying my use of here. I don't get how you can be confused about it. Empking isn't scummy in my book, he was just clearly biased against LUV in his exchange with him-whether that's scum motivated or not is unclear.

And what has Nacho said about me? Curious that opinion didn't cross your mind.

He's been MIA for the past 2-3 days but before that, just statements revolving around how he tries to get a read on you. I'm not revealing what those are, ask him after the game if you're curious.

Prism - I never meant to suggest that you had to defer to nacho on everything. I did mean on my opening though. Though if you weren't going to defer to nacho on thoughts on me, why are you waiting to see what he thinks of Medea?

I'm going to use Nacho, I'm not going to defer to Nacho. There's a big difference.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I'm actually really not sure how to feel about these last few pages. I like Shadonra's posts (in the sense that they feel town) even though I disagree with his opinion on Medea. I don't like Medea's latest posts despite their high effort and volume, especially #255.

Fate/Persivul/Aj are all works in progress. I'm juggling a bit too much today to really put in as much as I'd like. I'll try to come back to these later, responding to questions towards me is easy but reading for alignment is much harder. I'm having a hard time pinning down what to think about Persivul's posts especially. Don't be surprised if my initial impressions given above flip when I really get a chance to sit down and focus. (I realize the irony of this considering what I said about Fate)

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I've never played with Fate but I'd imagine a 5 year vet wouldn't struggle this much getting into a game/tripping over himself in the first few pages as town.

I don't really think that struggling to get into a game is particularly indicative for Fate, and I think the tripping over himself (referring to his treatment of your slot specifically) is more likely to come from town.

This game does deserve some effort on my part. Vote well deserved

Which hydra is Nacho again?

A part of me died when you said "vote well deserved" to such a lame, lame entry.

This means that if those roles die later on (post-Day Two), we know what their investigative results are from beyond the grave. Also might be useful for dealing with scum counterclaims, as they have members to burn on that stuff. That's how I would suggest taking advantage of the heavy investigative mechanic.

This is a fine idea, assuming that we don't massclaim on Day 2.
We should probably be massclaiming on Day 2.

[Reflektor]

I asked you specifically to have Nacho comment on my alignment and your hydras vote on me, Reflektor.

This is top priority, especially now with Tammy down I'm short on players I can trust if they're town

I think you're town, Prism doesn't. I'm perfectly comfortable with Prism feeling around and doing his own thing for now.

[Reflektor]

And as far as direct interaction with you goes, if you'd said anything I found interesting maybe I would have.

In this specific scenario, Tammy talked about no lynching and massclaiming, which you addressed in your first posts - if it was interesting enough to comment on, why wasn't it interesting enough to talk to Tammy about (or are you saying something else...).

I don't think that your worries about Tammy freaking out on you if you deviate from "Tammy is the towniest town to ever have towned" are well-founded; she does react strongly at times and she does question people when they give reads on her if they feel weird or they aren't what she's expecting, but I think that she was more hurt in this scenario because she thought you were saying that she was a chore to play with/that you had to walk on glass around her.

At the partway point of this slow readthrough I'll admit that I can see an option for massclaiming today. I think it stands a really good chance of going completely wrong, but in taking the time to write out how the worst case scenario would go down all the way to the first LyLo (of three potential if we keep picking right!) and who would likely be left alive, it's not something I think would be fun, but assuming a couple decent reads to work from in the resultant claimed VT pool, it might work out. I think looking at that and without running the scenario a Day Two massclaim discussion would be infinitely better with some results to report at the end of it, as some lucky investigating could make it fait accompli.

The number of LyLos is less important to me than the number of reads we need to have right; massclaiming leads to a guaranteed number of mislynches which seems like a pretty valuable thing to me right now.

I hate no lynch on principle, especially since we wouldn't be no lynching and mass claiming at the same time, which leaves the investigatives absolutely nothing to go on. Massclaim I was mostly thinking about where we'd end up in terms of PRs. And...redoing the worst case scenario it's actually four LyLos to survive. Or maybe the first one was too. Regardless, it's a gamble. Looking at Day Two massclaim gets pretty messy if we don't have definitive investigative results (as in results that aren't the false positive/negative types for each role). I think my initial stance holds.

There's no reason why we need a lynch in order to generate information; information is generated by scumhunting and talking, which is what's happening now.

[Reflektor]

Fate's 235 might be my favorite damn post so far just for having multiple reads/lines of interest clearly stated. (yes, I get the irony as I ramble on)

Interesting.

I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

Is there a reason that conversation couldn't have existed if they were scum?

@fate i voted you BECAUSE you were the biggest wagon out of my scumreads. being a solo vote on someone achieves much less pressure than a wagon does.

voting someone doesn't just magically put pressure on them, especially when the vote itself was the entirety of what you've provided to the game so far plus a few other names that you pulled out of a hat
if i was scum and you voted me like that, you'd be

removing

pressure from my wagon - pretty easy to shift a wagon when someone offers themselves up as a juicy, juicy target.

They sound about as disengaged as is possible.

I think it's possible that you're confusing them with LUV.

I'm too tired to parse Penguin's large post at the moment, I'll get to that in the morning.

[Reflektor]

I agree with them on the LUV push, and that's mostly what they discussed.

Nothing stood out to you about the vote/unvote of LUV?

[Reflektor]

Discussion is a two-way street. Your original complaint was that my naked vote was creating a bad atmosphere because I didn't give a reason.

I do have to say that while the Empking/LUV discussion hasn't really created anything particularly interesting, I do agree with this point by LUV as a refutation to Empking's main point.

[Reflektor]

I would merrily murder RM.

[Reflektor]

1) I am not sure I understand LuV wagon, either the early wagon or the late wagon

I'm not sure I understand why you're confused; are you townreading LUV for any particular reason or...?

2) I reject the motion of hypo claim. Hypo claim in D2 would only be beneficial if we get throught to D3, but we would only get to D3 if we're in good shape. If we're in a good shape, why take the gamble? I understand the motion, I have done hypo claim in the past in @EM, but I don't think hypo claim is justified for this game.

Agreed.

I asked you specifically to have Nacho comment on my alignment and your hydras vote on me, Reflektor.

This is top priority, especially now with Tammy down I'm short on players I can trust if they're town

Can you not trust Realeo?

He's not talking about alignment, he's talking about competence.

I think that's the problem of more high-density mafia where there is a lack of self-reinforcing town energy. Its why lylo is often so slow too.

I have absolutely no idea what you're actually saying here, but I like it.

[Reflektor]

Being VLA or replacing out does not absolve one of one's posts; if so I wouldn't be begrudgingly townreading the tammy slot , grey. Which parts of the case on us form others that are your townreads to you agree with specifically?

"There's no town motivation in these posts" isn't the greatest reason to scumread a slot about to launch into a 7 day V/LA.

BTW grey is scum who looks for reasons to justify the vote later, not town who looks for reasons to decide where to vote. It was obviously building up to hop on our wagon several posts ago during the past page.

Being transparent about who he's about to vote isn't particularly scummy; confirmation bias is a thing.

[Reflektor]

Reflektor am I wrong or are you STILL voting me and haven't explained or followed up with Nacho about how I'm scum here

I'm being a fucking great hydra partner and not commandeering the vote, correct.

[Reflektor]

Apologies, I've been busy the past 4/5 days. I'm free tomorrow so it'll be time to show this game some love again.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

fate my heart's not in the randomidget lynch
there's nothing wrong with it at all but I want a lynch that gets my blood pumping a little more

[Reflektor]

Am I the only one who is townleaning shadonra?

Probably.

^^^

if you want that to change, explaining where your thought process is the most important first step.

To be more precise, I find it confusing that you scumread LuV, but didn't scumread Tammy. Tammy is not fitting in? If I were old timer like Reflektor, I would be alerted, which what Reflektor did.

I'm confused why you're seeing LUV's and Tammy's posting as comparable?
Also, you note that Prism attacked BBMolla for similar reasons, but I think that he was missing a bit of meta context; I've also played pretty extensively with Tammy and ended up townreading her instantly, although I'm not really sure that I needed the meta in order to do so.

[Reflektor]

I admit I may have given Molla too much credit for old times sake as well, hes doing less than fuckall this game

Not concerned.

[Reflektor]

fate my heart's not in the randomidget lynch
there's nothing wrong with it at all but I want a lynch that gets my blood pumping a little more

Strange that you're voting fate, but here you talk to him like he's your partner.

Personally as random fails to engage after saying he would, my blood is starting to pump for him a little.

Prism voted Fate; I'll be moving the vote shortly.
I've seen more broken promises than I've seen ones that people have managed to keep intact; one more isn't exactly a surprise.

[Reflektor]

I've seen so many broken promises I don't even know what the opposite of a broken promise is.

[Reflektor]

For someone, that is a regular scummie from 2011, I find it hard for that to fly.

this is an appeal to experience

I can guaruntee that experience =/= skill and that I am shit at this game and can link multiple games to prove it

it's less of an appeal to experience and more of just plain wonky reasoning

[Reflektor]

My read lessened on LuV when it became clear it might be a meta issue

I've seen him play better as town.
Prism's seen him play better as scum.
I've been waiting for LUV to step up and become himself again but we have a limited amount of time and a limited amount of bropasses and I'm not really interested in letting him live until he shows some tiny spark of interest.

[Reflektor]

I'm starting to lean scum on Realeo. 384 strikes me more as white knighting than a real defense, mostly because of the mention of day 2 lylo, and 387 appears shallow to me. I think I would lean scum on Reflektor, but it's hard to muster the will to dig through his posts.

Excellent, glad that my master plan is working.
Did you have an opinion? Do you really think that scum replaces out for the reasons she did?

[Reflektor]

Real:

I don't math but sounds about right. Why do you seem so concerned?

This is it. Its not as bad as I remember it, although it was only replacing my random vote, so I was not necessarily blown away by it at the time. Essentially there are so many reactions to Tammy's comments and town would make all of them - being less tactical and self-preserving - but not often this ne. This is real interaction but is devoid of underreaction or (more likely) overreaction. Essentially, its too perfect (but lacking any artefacts of thinking through the subject raher than the post*) thus seeming planned or calculated.

Imagine a commet heading towards earth. Some people scream and run around. Some stay deathly still. One guy is tring to calm people don and he's a doctor of physics. Another one is also being calm and interacting with the others an is uper-reasonable. THe film follows this guy. At the end, however, it is shown that, in a twist,he is an alien controlling the meteorite with his mind. Hopefuilly, that clears it up.

hey empking - who are your town reads and why do you have them?

[Reflektor]

What a crap push. Let's wagon random. No, vig him. No, who wants to vote him? But is it weird I want to vig him? He's just useless. No wait, he might be scummy useless. So if you noticed I floated a trial balloon, note that I wasn't really expecting support. USE CAPS TO BLAME MY TERRIBLE PUSH ON RANDOM.

I don't think that there's a case that a sober person could produce that calls randomidget's ISO anything other than "absolutely horrible". If we end the day on randmidget, then, regardless of flip, we have a good lynch on our hands. Do you really think that a scum player would have to float a trial balloon out on that lynch?

[Reflektor]

The opinions of "good lynch vs. good vig" are also well documented; I'm not sure what your criticism with Fate talking about those two things specifically is about.

[Reflektor]

He's not talking about alignment, he's talking about competence.

This pinged me - why are you answering for Fate?

His meaning was obvious. Is there a reason I shouldn't be clarifying things that are obvious?

[Reflektor]

some player seems so chilly with Tammy

what does this mean?

[Reflektor]

Nacho you are doing the not weighing in on things thing, stahp it. You're not committing to a read on us and it's giving me ffery-hives.

i'm catching up; you can take your hives and...

get honey from them?

[Reflektor]

Like the time we have left is only enough to get a wagon to lynch if people get suddenly more active. Everyone checking in once a day at most just isn't enough.

then make a push to get the people's blood pumping

[Reflektor]

However, I'd like to argue to Fate that he is playing a safe town, not a safe scum want to have his options open. I'd like to consider that he is being town for his attitude.

I'm not really sure why those quotes that you bolded show that Medea is safe town over safe scum; most of Penguin's Tammy-related walls to me seemed pretty distinctively not alignment-indicative unless I'm missing a big bombshell somewhere.

[Reflektor]

"He's scum laying low!""Yeah I can see why your scumread dropped off"BOTH ABOUT FATE'S EXPLANATION FOR HIS INACTIVITY

I'm confused.

The first quote is about Fate's explanation for inactivity; I agree his criticism there is dumb because the chances he's telling the truth regardless of alignment is infinitely higher than lying about technology to cover up seeming "townier" later game.

The second quote is about randomidget talking about his scumread on Fate dropping off because of Fate's pressure of him.

[Reflektor]

Hey mod! When day vig shoots (from GS?), how does day vig shoots? Does they post in this thread like

Shoot: Donald Drumpf

Or secretly from PM?

(I'm using orange italic. I'm not impersonating mod since mod is orange bold =D)

I nearly missed this post. As it states in the rules, please use bolded text to get my attention.

Day vig will send me a message in pm.

Does a shot in this manner end the game's day?

BTW because of this handing out a gun and allowing anyone to shoot in secret is inherently antitown.

Yes. It does.

this ruins that gunsmith plan.

[Reflektor]

Grey: As said before; grey was clearly closely reading my posts (he went so far as to comment on a typo/grammar error in one of them) and made the most obvious lead up into voting us ever. He's scum who went looking for a good reason to join the wagon on us; not town who was looking for scum.

Why does it matter if he telegraphed his vote when he made it?
It's not like you don't know who you're voting before you're done catching up; did you take any particular issue with the reasoning he pushed you on?

[Reflektor]

Yes but in this case it was transparently scummy; not just transparent. That was the buildup of a case; that was reading our posts closely nitpicking errors but failed to comment on any of the major content; aside from stuff he could use to justify a vote on us.

Why do you hold the expectation that he would address the big walls?

1) Aside from the Inigo vote, Penguin's Tammy walls are absolute bitches to navigate and understand if your name isn't A) Nacho or B) Tammy, and that's the big chunk of what your hydra's contributed today; was there something else you think that he should have commented on?

2) It's fairly clear that his catchup style was just to comment on the scummy things that stood out to him; as a result, I'm not sure he didn't mention anything on you except for vote reasoning.

[Reflektor]

RQS when already in RVS has no real town benefit and shits up the thread.

people do silly things sometimes cabd; not sure how this is scummy.

[Reflektor]

All I know is concurring is literally defined as agreeing.

Put on your fucking big boy pants and read some supreme court opinions, dipshït.

I have no idea what you guys were talking but this post owns

[Reflektor]

you know if you switch BBMolla and shadonra I'd totally kill the top half of the playerlist and give the bottom half a day

[Reflektor]

JFC, apparently we have to act and think and discuss exactly what you imagine we would be doing when you imagine it happening for it to be legit. True report: after signing up we didn't talk about this game. It's my first week back at work and my stamina's shot to hell; last week I'd get to about 10 AM and be looking for a place to take a nap. My energy went to getting through the day and making sure we were ready for the next one, not advance study for this game. And as far as direct interaction with you goes, if you'd said anything I found interesting maybe I would have.* Or maybe not. Sorting you is hard enough for me without doing it in front of you to have any deviations from "Tammy is the towniest town who ever towned" be a reason for you to get all upset. So no, I didn't have any interest in calming you down or telling you personally to chill. I was more interested in trying to find some avenue of scum hunting, especially since I don't know some of this player list at all.*to clarify because I know this sounds mean, my takeaway from your posts up to that point were that the game setup was nuts and here are some nutsy things we could do in response, but maybe not. I had nothing further to say there beyond that those suggestions were not likely and quite premature when there's a day phase's worth of scum hunting to do without getting offtrack with pessimism.

This is a genuine post. I don't really think that it's alignment indicative.
I don't feel that Penguin's early interactions with Tammy were off, but I'd feel like her early approach to Tammy would be similar as scum and I could pretty easily seeing her get genuinely fired up about the interactions in general.

Do you disagree?

[Reflektor]

Unvoting in 154 reads as way too momentous a conclusion for what it's coming from,

This is the significant part of the Indigo case; the rest are observations that I could give or take (the ISO as a whole feels underwhelming, but replacement means that her head probably wasn't in it 100%). I think that it's odd, but I don't think that there's a scum case behind it compelling enough to carry it to a lynch. I think that your Grey push is probably biased; your point that you saw voted him coming is bleh and I don't agree with you that him ignoring your larger content bursts was scum-indicative (because they're hard to navigate and because that's the general style of your catchup as a whole). I think that your push on the slot as a whole is getting stale and I don't really see you searching for a direction elsewhere; your Gamma reasoning in particular is lazy lazy lazy central and while we can fall back on the randomidget wagon I have hopes of something a little more inspiring.

I think that your slot is still scummy. I'm not happy with seeing you lynched today because there is a pretty sizeable pile of people who need a noose and I know that your better half can salvage the slot once she has some time and distance and I'm willing to wait.

[Reflektor]

FIRING SQUAD:
Gamma Emerald
randomidget
Lil Uzi Vert
Empking
Aj The Epic
shadonra

DON'T IMMEDIATELY DIE HORRIBLY SQUAD:
BBMolla
-Grey- Indigo
Fate - real townread!
Persivul
Realeo Tammy - real townread!
Medea The Alien

this is the state of the union right now and it's not pretty

[Reflektor]

Spoiler: Our Vert

Hey guys.

What's shaking?

I don't math but sounds about right. Why do you seem so concerned?

I don't math but sounds about right. Why do you seem so concerned?

You're not? I like to have some chance at winning.

It's a rare occurrence to get a scum lynch day one, and it's a rarer occurrence that a vig kill lands on scum. That puts us at losing night two unless the stars align perfectly.

Not really. I have good feeling about the player list.

I think I'm gonna do RQS this game

Please don't.

I think our best bet is to just play and convince the vigilante to stay put if we mislynch D1.

Spoiler: Their Vert

Checking in.

I'm not familiar with any of the flavor but I feel like it could be indicative of alignment in some way. I'll try to read up on it sometime tomorrow.

Taking all of the claims so far with a grain of salt. I think Lady's post restriction thing might be legit though. Seems like it would be very hard to fake but at the same time it's a convenient excuse for lack of content.

Am I missing something with Camn and Jae? Saw a few votes on them and didn't really see anything too scummy.

Checking in.

I'm not familiar with any of the flavor but I feel like it could be indicative of alignment in some way. I'll try to read up on it sometime tomorrow.

Taking all of the claims so far with a grain of salt. I think Lady's post restriction thing might be legit though. Seems like it would be very hard to fake but

at the same time it's a convenient excuse for lack of content.

Am I missing something with Camn and Jae? Saw a few votes on them and didn't really see anything too scummy.

The bolded, for clarification.

Not once has LLD used it as an excuse for lack of content.

p-edit: hmmmm Spyrex can go up a tier

I'm just saying that it could be used as an excuse since she's having a difficult time so far with posts.

Seems like it would be very hard to fake

Posting with good grammar is hard to fake?

To me yeah. Depending on what and how much you want to say, especially if you have no one to proofread your post.

Okay on a reread I'm seeing what you guys are seeing now. I thought you guys were voting Jae for their vigilante comment which I found fairly reasonable considering what kind of game this is.

I don't understand how Jae originally found a conformation post more worthy of receiving a read compared to someone claiming miller. Even if you have a real reason for not factoring the claim, you could have still commented on her laughing at Lady's claim. I mean that would have most likely been received null but it's better than leaving someone off the list like they never posted.

Why the TR on Magna?

To general meta concerns, I feel like Lil Uzi Vert in the other game didn't feel like he was trying to avoid saying anything marginally uselful/risky; there, he pushed on someone because he thought they were maybe faking a PR claim, he clarified what was going on between players and he gave opinions on it. Here, I'm not really sure how to qualify his play other than coasting.

Vote: Lil Uzi Vert

I'll probably continue a larger case tomorrow when I have a little more time to work with but this is where I want to lynch today.

[Reflektor]

Except for Medea you just put the lower volume posters in die, and the higher volume posters in don't die. Weren't you just calling someone else lazy...?

Which one of my reads should be different?

[Reflektor]

BBmolla, Persivul.

Why?

[Reflektor]

I think it's silly of you to suggest that me holding Shadonra in the "death section" is unreasonable/a sign of me being lazy when Shadonra hasn't done jack shit this game.

[Reflektor]

VOTE: Aj the epic

Scum used to be hard to find

VOTE: Aj the epic

I don't think the AJ vote for "setup setup setup I hate setup spec because as scum I like fakeclaiming" was bad. However, I don't think that it was a particularly revolutionary observation.

[Reflektor]

I think Medea is town. I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

I think this is a shallow observation.

[Reflektor]

Eh, I reread his ISO and I kinda agree. Latest few posts make me think my read on him was bad.

I don't really understand this stance, but, if I remember correctly (it's completely possible that I'm not), this is also when AJ suspicion cooled down.

I think his point on LUV is fine, but not revolutionary.

[Reflektor]

I find scum unlikely to talk about this or lie about this conversation:

Is there a reason that conversation couldn't have existed if they were scum?

No, only that I don't really think setup spec is high on the list of things for scum to talk about.

setup talk benefits scum. it's unlikely to get any thing done this early and prevents them having to scumhunt.

I was referring to the out-of-thread conversation, not in-thread setup spec. I'm giving you scum points for this post.

I don't understand this.

[Reflektor]

Nothing is jumping out to me atm or I'd be talking about it

I say this more often as scum than town, but I'm not sure what kind of tell it is for other people

Rest of his posts seem town though.

I'm starting to lean scum on Realeo. 384 strikes me more as white knighting than a real defense, mostly because of the mention of day 2 lylo, and 387 appears shallow to me. I think I would lean scum on Reflektor, but it's hard to muster the will to dig through his posts.

I agree that some of Realeo's posting was shallow, but leaning scum on him without taking any of Tammy's posting into account (when Tammy is still the most prolific poster in thread) is weird.

[Reflektor]

I don't think that the shallowness of this observation makes it a weaker town case. It is clearly shallow. If you believe that Medea, just returned from hiatus, would fake this conversation as scum, fine. But I find this unlikely.

I think the problem is more with the premise that scum don't talk about or don't need to talk about setup speculation; if Cabd is playing, setup speculation is a part of his approach to the game regardless of alignment so townreading him for that is meh. In general, I don't think that talking about setup spec is a town tell like you think it is; that's why I find the observation shallow/weak.

[Reflektor]

re: randommidget post:
He made the argument that scum likes to setup spec inthread essentially to fake activity. This was not the basis for my townread, and his argument doesn't strike me as having thought things through - he's just trying to score a point.

He didn't understand your point, sure - why assign him scumpoints for it?

[Reflektor]

I keep thinking this...

There are 4 mafiosos.

Which wagon would the mafio sheep?

I feel, more uneasy voting this game.

Hold on dude I have the answer

[Reflektor]

I know I left it somewhere, give it a second

[Reflektor]

They would sheep the wagon on town!!!

[Reflektor]

(Trying to determine where scum is going to vote isn't useful until we actually know something).

[Reflektor]

I'm disappointed that there aren't more LUV opinions in thread right now, especially from Fate; I understand you might not want to follow, but I'd hope a bro vote would at least be worth an honorableention.

[Reflektor]

Honorable mention holy shit I fucked that up

[Reflektor]

It's not about the scumhunting skill.

It's the fact that scum can have majority in the lynch wagon.

Majority is 7. There are 4 scum.

[Reflektor]

It's not about the scumhunting skill.

It's the fact that scum can have majority in the lynch wagon.

Majority is 7. There are 4 scum.

It takes 7 to lynch, right?

We can have a lynch wagon of 4x mafia , 3x town. Town is in

an implicit

minority.

What?

[Reflektor]

Realeo, step away from the ledge. You are having a paranoid meltdown.

[Reflektor]

it looked to me like he was just trying to score a gotcha, but i've reconsidered. i think this wagon is leaving too readily.

This is something that Realeo also brought up and I think it's a silly worry; it's been a full two weeks and the only thing even vaguely resembling a wagon is randommidget at what? 4? I don't think that the scumteam is trying to push through any lynch in particular.

[Reflektor]

bbmolla bc i actually hated the sideline comment on the randommidget wagon

The sideline comment you're referring to is talking about disliking Fate's push on it or...?

[Reflektor]

I think Realeo suspicion at this stage is atrocious and I don't really agree about Grey but we've been over that already. What is your LUV read?

[Reflektor]

I'm caught up now and I have a lot to discuss. I disagree with a LOT of what is over the past 7-8 pages. I hate hydra dissonance but I think being transparent with my direct thought processes is going to be a lot more helpful than whatever comes out of negotiation.

Fate's on and off with the Random wagon, and general lack of attention to anywhere else, is atrocious. Attacking Random's playstyle as justification for a vote if Random is town is atrocious. I might even agree with it if you swap Fate's and Random's names, because Random might as well be the greatest mafia player alive compared to Fate. The only reason I see to townread him is that he's done it too many times. Nacho is adamant that this game fits Fate's town meta, and I think I should trust him on it, but if this is it it's fucking awful.

@Fate:

As someone who hasn't played 30+ games with you, how the hell am I supposed to townread you? Your reads have made no sense at all, I think random's content is fine, and your read on Aj still made 0 sense at the time it happened. (Sidenote: Doesn't mean that Random isn't scum, but if he is I can't nail him)

UNVOTE:

I'm not voting LUV today, 0 chance. I've seen him play better as scum and want him to step it up but this wasn't what I meant. I disagree with Nacho on the comparison to the other towngame. Comparing a town game to a town game is worthless, so comparing a single town game to a game he hasn't flipped in yet is virtually useless. Need to compare a scum vs. town first, then compare the unknown to have it really be useful. This isn't even close to the LUV I was scum with.

This is more of just a feeling on my end that is worth following up on but Persivul bothers me so far. He's made no posts that I scumread but all of his posts that I've liked have been ones that are very

objective

, in the sense that I think they're clever or insightful. There's nothing inherently wrong with this but there's been nothing that I've liked that is

subjective

, in the sense that I don't agree with them but can clearly see the intent or genuine, organic thought process. Getting all of one and none from the other is not a great sign. This is a really hard feeling to describe and I've botched it but it's the best I can do right now. I'd put him as a scumlean right now with weak basis, the problem is he's done nothing to really justify that, at least in my opinion.

I've got more thoughts to follow up on but I've got to run for now, I'll be back in about 6-7 hours with the rest.

-Prism

P.S. Again I hate that I'm basically slamming the door in Nacho's face right now, because I don't think public hydra dissonance is a good thing, but to reiterate I think that the ability to see my thought processes both pre and post discussion/negotiation with Nacho will outweigh any negatives that come from the extra noise.

[Reflektor]

Real quick again, I've got more people I want to comment on, I just don't have time to type it up until I get back from some work and appointments.

[Reflektor]

BY ASKING NACHO WHO HAS THAT EXPERINCE WITH ME

like

Do you know hwo hard it is to townread you

when you literally have the equivalent of Scissors to cut the paper
and instead you use your teeth?

I don't know how shitty the communication is in your hydra but it would have to be pretty shitty to vote me without nacho's input and then refuse to ask nacho's input for the next 20 pages when I was asking you to.

We've discussed it pretty extensively, but it fundamentally has come down to a "No that's wrong" back and forth. Ex. He has the exact opposite interpretation of your vote on Aj. He doesn't think that something being a scum move for me makes it likely so for you. He likes your progression on RM and agrees with the vote. He likes your interactions (whatever that means). I'm inherently skeptical of meta reads unless they're based off of something mechanical.

I dislike both of these things. It's an ongoing discussion, but as I said in the post you quoted, I see literally 0 reason to townread you other than simply taking Nacho's word for it and assuming you don't account for him whatsoever when you flip scum.

[Reflektor]

You can't seriously be hung up on the AJ vote which was RVS then pretend-not RVS to increase pressure and generate content

Like

really

The pretend-not RVS is a really helpful clarification here. I read this and said "No, I

know

there's more to it than that." and I was right, I'm still not a big fan of the RM votes. I do like the Medea vote and find it unlikely that you're both scum. Color me cautious.

On other players, the biggest thing I want right now is more content from Empking and Gamma. Gamma is a great vigshot at this point, unless we have a really strong scumread, and Empking has given basically 0 that's not tunneling LUV. I don't like the earlier case of the biased vs. LUV as well as his continued tunnel there, especially since I lean town on LUV.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Sorry I've been tied up elsewhere.

@Molla:

A lot of this confidence in reads is really mysterious/somewhat sudden. I don't think it's a scumtell. It does mean that I think you're wrong and you haven't been transparent. What's with the defense of Empking/confidence in Aj?

[Reflektor]

This is Prism, by the way.

[Reflektor]

I still read rm as town

If this is true this is the first mention you've made of it.

[Reflektor]

Nacho has been MIA and we haven't talked about this in 2-3 days now but speaking for him, he didn't like the idea of voting Molla a few days ago.

[Reflektor]

Correction, not confidence in Aj, I got that mixed up with your read on Fate.

Ctrl+F'ing your ISO I see nothing on Aj so anything you have there would be nice.

[Reflektor]

Vote: AJ the Epic

Still don't want to lynch BBMolla.

[Reflektor]

Especially after his latest reactions to the lynch.

[Reflektor]

I would imagine that his increased confidence in reads has something to do with being pissed off but maybe that only happens to me.

[Reflektor]

At this point I'm going to assume it flips town, I wasn't really the biggest fan of either vote. Nacho thought Aj over BB and that's more than I had.

Empking/Persivul/Fate are all ondeck for me, even though I doubt those are all 3.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I really like Grey's reaction here, I find it hard to believe he's scum even if Aj flips town.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

It's pretty good acting, I might be underestimating him but I'm fine with it for now.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Looking again the "Fucking Shoot Me" isn't

as

great as I thought but the rest, especially the bussing lines, were pretty genuine.

Fourth guess I really don't know, Gamma is most likely imo.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I thought that was already hammered. I want to unvote but I see no alternative I can get other than Molla.

Scumreading Grey makes more sense to now but still doubt it.

shadonra:

Why do you think our slot is scum?

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Fair warning I'm going to be drinking pretty heavily starting 20 minutes ago but I'll be checking my phone if anything comes up.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I'm swamped tonight so I'm hoping Nacho can pick up the slack today. If he can't I should be able to swing by tomorrow.

Glad to see Gamma's decided to start playing mafia, hopefully that kill fixes anyone who was tunneling RM.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Nacho has straight up BAILED on me when I needed him most, he hasn't even posted in our QT in eons. I'm still busy until probably Saturday but I recognize that right now I'm being deadweight and need to pick up the slack.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Also REFLEKTOR needs a prod

is it just me or is this day moving glacier

We definitely did and it definitely is, and that's largely my fault so apologies.

To be blunt this game hasn't been me/Nacho's favorite. The point of us hydraing was to help each other's scumgames as we think we have opposite weaknesses, which is why we picked a game with 4 scum. Instead we're basically just twiddling our thumbs and hoped we'd just get nightkilled, which isn't fair to anyone.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Don't hammer until I'm ready; new schedule means that my time during weekdays is limited and so I'd like some weekend time to catch up on the game so I can type up some thoughts and be read up when we're going into later days.

[Reflektor]

I definitely think the day should have been lengthened here before outing that. I guess I'm catching up on my reading overnight.

Empking was my second/third vote choice anyway (Gamma and Fate himself being the other top contenders off the top of my head)

Big need is probably pinning down Molla/hadon/Grey alignments. Persivul I'm probably going to have to PoE.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

@Medea:

I suspect you're just saying that to draw an RB. I'm not sure how Nacho feels about it but I lean that it is optimal to actually shoot tonight, as the RB is going on one of you/Fate and a docsave+shot nets us a free ML.

If I'm being dumb and the number is off someone correct me but I think it's right. I'm fucking tired.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I really hope that I didn't just tell Medea to shoot only to have them shoot the doctor. I'm assuming scum blocked the GS and not the vig.

Nacho is still MIA but he was 100% sure the Tammy slot is town and I've scumread nothing from Realeo.

I lean town on Grey as well which leaves us a 3/4 chance (probably anyway) in Shadon/Molla/Gamma/Persivul. Originally I was going to make a guess but when I couldn't make it without saying "but Pers/Shadon/Molla are all tossups" I realized there wasn't much point.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I lean town on Grey as well

What happened since 971?

Yours was the only ISO I got around to. Honestly a lot of it is just gut, a lot of your early play was similar to Evoker which put me on guard. I think the interactions with Persivul are slightly more likely to come from town, #441 to like #449. The biggest reason for me though is #716 feels extremely genuine.

[Reflektor]

Wow. I even forget to make a read at GE because I even forget about him

I'm voting Gamma today unless Nacho shows up to stop me, and even then I might do it anyway. This doesn't look like either of the games Gamma was town in with me, and the dude's only flurry of posting yesterday was awful. If he's town give me the flip sooner rather than later.

The two games I played with Gamma I got very quick townreads on him (Granted once I was scum) based off the quality of some of the flurries of activity he would have.

VOTE: Gamma

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Scanning the ISO of LUV I don't see any kind of soft, the only thing was that he said he'd have more for us Day 2 but that was in response to expectations about the player list. Probably worth looking into later if I have time, or if anyone else thinks they can find any of it worthwhile. Strange to shoot him over Realeo in my opinion.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

When you get back reread Gamma and tell me what you think. If you have any experience with Greytown that would be helpful too, I've only seen him as scum.

[Reflektor]

I thought the LUV kill might have been a vig shot, tbh.

He caught some heat d1, didn't he?

That's my fear (As my last statement was advocating a vig) but I figure we'll get our answer soon enough. I thought he was really town post-Empking flip but I also had meta with him that pointed to him being town.

[Reflektor]

And sure, I'll try to get to them tomorrow.

[Reflektor]

I disagree entirely with the case on Persivul. I think it's bullshit. I'm okay going with his lynch just out of PoE (Most likely partners with Gamma) but even if he flips scum I think the reasoning being thrown out is awful, ex. He clearly

did

think through why Fate would say that, and came to the wrong conclusion.

For everyone else I have a challenge: Read Gamma's posts and pinpoint a single one as being town.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I can't even remember the last time I defended a null read, I much prefer to just ride it out and get my own conclusion. This has just been a garbage fest.

[Reflektor]

My own frustration with the past few pages and the seeming incapability of anyone to do an eyetest and notice you exist.

Like there Gamma is quoting that and asking "Why?" when it's

incredibly obvious why

, not even caring to think about it or addressing the bigger piece of content I just gave. Even if Persivul winds up flipping scum, I'm still going to stand by this.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Persivul needs a gun to the face

Gamma is for rope

If you can sell me on why Persivul is scum sure. Right now you're just asking me to buy a 1 way ticket to slightly-better-than coinflip land and saying "Oh yeah Gamma can wait" even though he's the most likely roleblocker by a mile, just for sheer force of fact that he's most likely to be the mafia.

If it's all 3 of Shadon/Persivul/BBMolla then I can eat crow, but right now that's looking really unlikely. Both of the games I played with Gamma he was an easy townread because his thought processes were obvious and tangible. I have never felt like this has been the case this game, even with his flurry of activity earlier in the day.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Gamma has gotten a lot more town ever since our interaction like 20 pages back where he went through and read the game giving his stream of consciousness.

Town bucket: Batoru, Sondam, Gamma

I really hate these top two wagons [One of which was Gamma]

Gamma also know why I scumread him early on in Evoker, which was that I thought he was lying about meta with me.

[Reflektor]

I want other reads from you besides Gamma though, Reflektor

Working on it but 3 games is a lot to juggle and this is one of my busier weeks. I know I need to pick 2 in Shadon/Molla/Persivul but right now I'm down time and a Nacho so I'm just going for the low hanging fruit.

[Reflektor]

Oh My God.

I get it!

Scum does not has chat~daychat or nightchat. They can't communicate!

The wording of the role PM is that

Vote - During the day phases, you may cast your vote to help decide to lynch a player. During the night phases, you may cast your vote to decide to kill one of the enemy players.

Why would they case vote if it's a night chat? I think there would be less bussing here.

I'm going to clear this up right now. That is not true. They can in fact communicate,

but only during night phases.

That's pretty much a town slip. I can't imagine scum faking that. Not that I had any problems with the slot before that, but FWIW.

Not in my opinion. That looks rather shady imo

Not in my opinion. That looks rather shady imo

Why didn't you say so before?

Meant to but I forgot to post it actually, also had trouble putting it into words

A+ exchange here

[Reflektor]

Oh My God.

I get it!

Scum does not has chat~daychat or nightchat. They can't communicate!

The wording of the role PM is that

Vote - During the day phases, you may cast your vote to help decide to lynch a player. During the night phases, you may cast your vote to decide to kill one of the enemy players.

Why would they case vote if it's a night chat? I think there would be less bussing here.

I'm going to clear this up right now. That is not true. They can in fact communicate,

but only during night phases.

That's pretty much a town slip. I can't imagine scum faking that. Not that I had any problems with the slot before that, but FWIW.

Not in my opinion. That looks rather shady imo

Not in my opinion. That looks rather shady imo

Why didn't you say so before?

Meant to but I forgot to post it actually, also had trouble putting it into words

A+ exchange here

[Reflektor]

I kept the conclusion to myself so if Fate was mafia he couldn't dodge me

before I had the whole picture.

this doesn't make sense; you were in the process of lynching him

[Reflektor]

I had voted him, but I had not brought my full case forward.

and your whole case was "he voted someone and said he wanted to vote Empking more"?

[Reflektor]

then if you thought that you had a fairly substantive case already then why did you need to keep the reasoning in your back pocket and be afraid that Fate would dodge you?

[Reflektor]

Those posts actually were Nacho and we're pow-wowing now.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Molla if you're town can you stop being complete deadweight

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Alright slow down there Fate old boy, lining up mislynches is never a good idea.

The statement of Molla's is obvious because Gamma is mafia, this isn't even close to any town meta, let alone his own.

[Reflektor]

If Gamma is town give us a fighting chance.

[Reflektor]

Actually no, I'm going all in, we're doing this, we're taking Gamma to the house of pain. We're doing this. Put your vote where your mouth is. Let's go.

You've got yourself a deal.

That I would renege on but won't have to

[Reflektor]

Would the lynch also go through or just the shot?

[Reflektor]

Fate dude stay on the rails we're up against Gamma and 2/3 of Shadon/Persivul/Molla. If you're just wanting me to get around to reading the others I told you I'm working on it so hold your goddamn horses. Your gut needs some pepto-bismol.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Like, even if you think we're bussing Gamma, using the ML on us instead is dumb. If you think Gamma is town then I don't know how to get you on the track.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

That's fair. I don't think it's in my scum meta and think you're underestimating my flexibility/capability, but I've only got one completed scum game on MS and I was forced into doing similar by situation. At first I was typing up something super defensive but I think that's a waste and won't really help. This is more of a matter of having the sample size to point to.

An explanation for why that's the case is that Empking was a scum lean after his interactions with LUV (Who I had as pretty hard town due to differences between this game and the one I was scum with him in) but I scumread Medea more. He just didn't do much otherwise, and in hindsight yes he should have been higher up for it, but hindsight is 20/20. I wasn't here for the most part Day 2 until after the guilty was outed iirc.

I'll try and reread when I get home, especially since I see a big Shadon post, even though that's not how I hunt best. Just a heads up that I've got a lot on my plate and can probably only do 1 ISO before Saturday.

In the meantime you've got to work with me-Do you think Gamma is town and if so why?

-Prism

[Reflektor]

I also don't see that he posted this here but Nacho is currently at Gamma/Persivul and probably Shadon, I'm still Gamma+whoever, no pick of 2 feels immediately right but I'd probably go Molla over one of them.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Probably, I've been pretty bored and don't even remember Day 1 for the most part. Our signup was for one reason and when that didn't happen we just kind of shrugged our shoulders. Nacho was excited for Tammy but then she replaced out and now he's basically been MIA for days at a time now.

[Reflektor]

Regardless, if you think Gamma is town, I'd like you to lay out why and I'll tackle it when I get to a computer.

[Reflektor]

I just realized you didn't even read my post before you responded you fucking slimy bastard

[Reflektor]

As long as Fate doesn't think he's town we're fine.

We can lynch outside if he insists, I can read on Saturday. I'm just out late today and tomorrow.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

@Fate: Actually read what I'm typing at you, I'll unvote pending my read on Molla/Shadon. Chance of Gamma town is extremely low in both my and Nacho's opinions.

UNVOTE:

[Reflektor]

I literally can't wait for Fate to jump and say SEE REFLEKTOR IS BUSSING GAMMA LOOKING FOR ANOTHER MISLYMCH because right now he's like talking to a brick wall

[Reflektor]

God, the temptation to hammer that and just let Fate die.

[Reflektor]

I'm actually being too hard on him but this whole game has been annoying.

P-Edit: Sorrow abounds.

[Reflektor]

God, the temptation to hammer that and just let Fate die.

I'm disappointed you didn't attempt to quickhammer here, Prism.

[Reflektor]

well I'm glad you decided to claim scum so I don't have to be paranoid anymore

STill Reflektor as RB

RB is probably out of shots already.
KBW's wacky gunsmith rules weren't clear until today and if the scumteam is so much as vaguely intelligent instead of just blindingly lucky they went for the block N1 and on you N2, so your RB fear is probably overblown.

[Reflektor]

For the record; we don't have a gun so Fate being REALLY insistent that I have it makes Gamma claimed scum... I think? Because that means Fate was roleblocked. There's WIFOM there of course but it doesn't really matter....

Kthnxbye

Gamma's claimed scum from the hilariously late counterclaim, no need to over think it.

[Reflektor]

Stop trying to pretend you're not scum

Oh I would never pretend to be town.
I'm just trying to coax you into full tunnel mode so I have something more satisfying to work into my signature.

[Reflektor]

No other block makes sense you dolt.

Scum going to give you a free investigation?

[Reflektor]

This game is like pulling teeth. First up on the reread list is Shadon.

[Reflektor]

I'm going to strangle you, and no that's not a scumclaim.

[Reflektor]

PUMP THE BRAKES PRISM WE'VE SHIT THE BED

[Reflektor]

DEDUCING THAT FATE WAS ROLEBLOCKED LAST NIGHT = SCUM CLAIM

[Reflektor]

I assume Nacho still sees BB as town (BECAUSE HE DOESN'T ANSWER DIRECT QUESTIONS IN THE PT???

@NACHO

) but I see no reason to think so for myself other than his meta. I really don't like Shadon on reread and think interactions point more towards him.

I remember liking #259 at the time but looking back I think that was stupid. It's not scummy but it's just a standard opener taking weak stances.

What don't you like about AJ's posts?

AJ's iso looks like this.

"setup spec setup spec setup spec"

"i hate setup spec! i never do setup spec"

"fate doesn't post"

It looks like he wanted to post but wasn't interested in saying anything.

Not really getting that vibe at all.

Eh, I reread his ISO and I kinda agree. Latest few posts make me think my read on him was bad.

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

I lean scum on posts like this (why does he get to do that and I don't? kinda thing)

I would have joined the fun and silently voted LUV, if not for my already being on him. I don't like the post because he is being entirely silent on why he voted and one can not reasonably guess why. Presumably the vote, but why the vote. It just creates a worse atmosphere. However, as I said, I'm already on him.

Why does my naked vote create a worse atmosphere and BB's doesn't? He just naked vote in 208.

This post is really awful. It's a valid point against Empking but Shadon just votes LUV for pointing out the discrepancy...right after agreeing with him on Aj.

Nothing is jumping out to me atm or I'd be talking about it

I say this more often as scum than town, but I'm not sure what kind of tell it is for other people

Rest of his posts seem town though.

I'm starting to lean scum on Realeo. 384 strikes me more as white knighting than a real defense, mostly because of the mention of day 2 lylo, and 387 appears shallow to me. I think I would lean scum on Reflektor, but it's hard to muster the will to dig through his posts.

Read on Realeo is okay. "Rest of Molla's posts seem town" but I really don't get that impression. Leans scum on us despite never reading us. Repeating theme.

Their read on Medea turned out to be correct but I don't think their reasoning behind it was good at all, especially when the alternative pushes suggested were mislynches or likely mislynches (Aj, LUV, Grey).

I don't think that the shallowness of this observation makes it a weaker town case. It is clearly shallow. If you believe that Medea, just returned from hiatus, would fake this conversation as scum, fine. But I find this unlikely.

I think the problem is more with the premise that scum don't talk about or don't need to talk about setup speculation; if Cabd is playing, setup speculation is a part of his approach to the game regardless of alignment so townreading him for that is meh. In general, I don't think that talking about setup spec is a town tell like you think it is; that's why I find the observation shallow/weak.

ok, we disagree

re: randommidget post:
He made the argument that scum likes to setup spec inthread essentially to fake activity. This was not the basis for my townread, and his argument doesn't strike me as having thought things through - he's just trying to score a point.

He didn't understand your point, sure - why assign him scumpoints for it?

it looked to me like he was just trying to score a gotcha, but i've reconsidered. i think this wagon is leaving too readily.

i'm not down with medea wagon. slot doesn't look like scum to me. i'd rather have bbmolla or grey: bbmolla bc i actually hated the sideline comment on the randommidget wagon and grey for tossing mad shade everywhere (also indigo wasn't good, but not much posts so ..). uhh, i might also be able to go for realeo. widely townread tammy makes me reconsider, tho i'm having a pretty hard time getting a read on her myself.

VOTE: grey

The BBMolla flip is okay but Grey tossing mad shade everywhere as a scumtell is awful and leads into a hardcore tunnel for no real reason. The Realeo/Tammy read is really noncommittal and seems like just waiting for an opportunity.

Yah.

LUV has not really posted his actual opinions on anything. He's just been asking people questions. I don't like that, but he claims it's NAI for him and I haven't looked at any of his other games yet, so *shrug*. I'd like to see him post more stuff tho

Throw in another bad LUV push.

Let's get a grey wagon.

#350: Claims Persivul is shade throwing. Actually it's Grey that's throwing shade; I think Persivul is unlikely to throw shade by making a weird leap of logic like Grey is assuming.
#365: I think this post is bizarre. Two ways I could take this; you're either scumreading AJ or you think the quoted post is supertown. But

you don't vote AJ

and I don't think the quoted post is supertown.

Oh, you are scumreading AJ. OK, but why no vote?

Eh. If Grey is town:
1) He's confbiased pretty hard on Persivul
2) He didn't vote a bunch of scumreads (persivul, aj)
3) He's voted Medea, which I don't think has a good case on it, and Grey hasn't provided much of a case either.

Grey - why do you think Medea is scum over AJ and Persivul, particularly AJ, over whose vote you're willing to townclear bbmolla?

This is an awful push. There is 0 way this tunnel is happening just because Grey voted one scumread over another.

#680 townreads Empking, and I would love to hear how.

#947 calls Empking's vote bad along with parts of Persivul's reasoning...and then votes Fate anyway. I might be being unfair as there's still some reasoning there but this is still just bizarre.

#1131 is more never taking a stance on us and just waiting it out. Point 1) is basically what I've said but point 3) sticks out to me as being pretty bad:

3) I think Molla's town because he was really extremely wrong on all of day 1 and 2, but he seems like he could try that as scum too, so I'm not sure

[Reflektor]

I've got to run for a bit but I'll try to get to Molla later, Nacho if you want to help still waiting on thoughts on Grey.

[Reflektor]

I'm also headed out for a bit.
I suppose I will play more seriously later.

[Reflektor]

Don't know Prism, but this is awful on three levels: First the odds of us shooting correctly AND the doc protecting were lousy enough to be a bad plan; second the emphasis on getting an extra mislynch, not an extra lynch; and third messing with our (admittedly poor) attempt to divert the RB. Didn't sit well with me.

1. Optimal to shoot the vig unless you've got a very solid docread. Save not terribly unlikely-prospect of it leads them to shoot in blues, which we want, even if we didn't get the result we wanted
2. I did the math then and realized it might have been wrong and encouraged you to make your own evaluation. What am I going to do, purposely give something suboptimal to someone who I was told well in advance does a lot of setup spec?
3. Extra lynch. Sure. I've called it a "mislynch" due to it being my vocab word of choice for it for 6 years. Definitely scummy.
4. Me encouraging you to shoot makes it

more likely

for you to actually draw a roleblock, much more than your "Oh I'm shooting the obvious scum" would have made it. If you had an obvious scum they would have been lynched.

[Reflektor]

Day 43.

Still not the alignment I wanted. Motivation running low. I saw Nacho today. First time in months. Hacked his way through the undergrowth to laugh at me in my misery. Somehow still has cigs to smoke. Mind long gone. Cackled and jumped back into brush.

Brain of clears long since gone. Fate has forgotten his own role. Medea thinks convincing the vig to shoot makes the vig less likely to draw an RB. I wrote a wall on Shadon today. Nobody cared. Nobody listened. Smoke signals ignored. Saw Persivul and Grey from across the way. Both waved. Maybe still scum but I like to tell myself that they're friendlies. They're all I have, in a way, even if we don't actually talk to each other. The only people that can understand.

Likely plotting to stab me for food. Undetermined. Must wait and find out. Rescue unlikely. Hope diminishes by day. Low morale. Only matter of time until end up like Nacho. Losing mind. Delusions in night. Strange shapes and shadows.

Reality slips.

...Just right for a jungle cruise.

I slide back into the swampy water. Another night in the depths.

[Reflektor]

I just realized I never posted this here (I think)

@Mod & all:

I will not have internet access for two weeks, from the 12th to the 26th, so Nacho will be bringing us home in that time. If the game is still continuing at the end, I will return then. The game should open again on like the 10th so hopefully I'll be able to get my thoughts down before then, if not Nacho will have what I give him.

I assume this will be fine since it's basically like he's replacing the slot solo, but if not just let us know.

[Reflektor]

Obviously this is Prism

[Reflektor]

Fate brother I love you but I'm glad you're gone.

I'm still in favor of Shadon over Molla. Nacho's thinking (last checked in over the night phase) seems to still think this is up Molla's alley as either alignment and is more skeptical of Persivul. Persivul's last post to me is insightful but reads mildly disingenuous to me, and I'm not sure he'd make it if he were scum with Molla. I think scum can afford to bus today but ehhhhhhhhh

I've gotten this feeling that's slowly become more set out of habit over time, rather than actual, concrete reasoning, that Grey is town. I'm revisiting that soon.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

molla stop trying to kill yourself.

[Reflektor]

First major ping on Shadonra is his read on Realeo:

Nothing is jumping out to me atm or I'd be talking about it

I say this more often as scum than town, but I'm not sure what kind of tell it is for other people

Rest of his posts seem town though.

I'm starting to lean scum on Realeo. 384 strikes me more as white knighting than a real defense, mostly because of the mention of day 2 lylo, and 387 appears shallow to me. I think I would lean scum on Reflektor, but it's hard to muster the will to dig through his posts.

His initial read when Realeo comes in is a scum read on him for what I think are weak reasons (I have no idea why bringing up Day 2 LyLo is scummy and it's something that multiple people brought up before, and saying that asking empking to elaborate on his LUV case is shallow is utterly ridiculous). I also find it weird how he didn't factor in a read on Tammy AT ALL, he later says that he "couldn't find any reason to townread Tammy" but I find that to generally be unnatural unless people's experience with her gives them an odd perspective; thought her opening looked fairly town (and if nothing else, worthy of some type of read) but his weird perspective is probably a result of my call out of him on this in the first place (I also find the fact he forgot Realeo replaced in for Tammy to be pretty weird - she was a very active poster, she replaces out, Shadonra starts scumreading the new guy and doesn't think "hmmm, who did he replace in for?". He then moves the goalposts a bit and says that his reason for scumreading Realeo is now "for non-game content posts" which apparently means that Realeo's suggestion that the vig should shoot was scummy because ??? even though he thinks his opinions are mostly good.

After a couple people push back against his Realeo read, Shadonra doesn't even change his mind; he just puts it on the backburner and doesn't talk about it for posts and posts and posts (and his interactions with Realeo don't really show evidence of any sort of read - they're all mostly alignment neutral questions from what I can tell). In fact, he doesn't bring this up or address this in any way whatsoever until this post about 700 pages later, where he says that he thinks he agrees with Persivul about Realeo "townslipping".

[Reflektor]

I can do either molla or shandonra.

Then come get shadonra with me.

Vote: Shadonra

[Reflektor]

Next point are these particularly atrocious interactions with flipped scum.

First:

for me the townest person in those 5 names is either empking or randommidget, it's close, but i feel like no one in the game is townreading all of those 4 on the right

Empking could easily be scum. I think nothing of randommidget unvoting, because I also unvoted at that time.

For one, I don't like the position he took on the AJ the Epic wagon; the "THIS WAGON IS BAD BECAUSE I'M SCUMREADING PEOPLE ON IT" followed by saying that he would rather no lynch as opposed to hammer AJ the Epic seems like overstated confidence to a pretty large degree. I don't like that he bails from his second strongest scumread on BBMolla (who was a viable wagon at that point when Grey really wasn't) and doesn't bring up his response to the wagon as a reason for townreading him later. In general, I think that his perspective on Empking is to say that he's scummy every time an Empking question comes up but never follows through with a vote and always to be sure that he has people ahead of them in his suspect list.

I am rereading shadonra's iso and I cannot still believe that he believes that his case at -Grey- is topkek.

I'm sure that at least some of it is gut/confbias and I'm not expressing the gut stuff well. I'll probably go back and try to put more of it into words tonight. Kinda waiting on Gamma and Empking to post more, they're unreadable lumps for me at this point and I don't like that feeling.

When Realeo calls shadonra out for sitting on the Grey case for as long as he was, his response is to go "well I'm just waiting for Gamma and Empking to post more, I can't read them and it sucks ". However, the only followup he manages is to say that if both Grey and Realeo are town, then Gamma is scum (and not one or the other, which doesn't make sense). He doesn't elaborate on this.

Vote: Fate

- If there's a town leader its him, but we're not getting anywhere. I don't relly hsve any scumreads. I don't tink many people do. And I think if there's someone to poin to for that then its Fate.

this vote is bad

What makes it null lurking and not scum lurking?

Quote specific posts if you can please

You

haven't

quoted his supposedly scummy posts. You

have

said that he skated by D1 and hasn't done fuckall.

You've also said that you were getting cop vibes from him D1, but haven't explained why those vibes couldn't have also come from a gunsmith.

Scum generally have incentive not to make waves, but in this setup a lot of people would also play a PR not to make waves. You're scum reading a lurker on nothing,

despite getting cop vibes from him, and that looks like scum trying to run a potential PR up to see if there's a claim

.

VOTE: Fate

bolded part is bad, the rest is why i'm

VOTE: fate

I really don't like you pushing two lurkers on d2 and claiming they're both scum when they continue to lurk. I don't think scum is more likely to do that than disengaged town.

I don't think that him voting Fate over Empking makes sense here when he's brought up Empking as a suspect and someone who could be scum time and time again and Fate approximately zero times. What's more, he's voting Fate for suspecting Empking/Gamma for lurking when those are the same two lurkers he was concerned about earlier.

[Reflektor]

And finally, the grand Grey tunnel:

#350: Claims Persivul is shade throwing. Actually it's Grey that's throwing shade; I think Persivul is unlikely to throw shade by making a weird leap of logic like Grey is assuming.

The post he's calling out Grey for making is one where Grey criticized Persivul for attacking Tammy by saying that scum read the setup less than town (which is ridiculous in and of itself), and goes "hahaha, it's scummy because Grey is the one who is throwing shade!" which is what he said the basis for his scumread was earlier but never explained how he was "throwing shade" or what that even meant in the first place.

#365: I think this post is bizarre. Two ways I could take this; you're either scumreading AJ or you think the quoted post is supertown. But you don't vote AJ and I don't think the quoted post is supertown.

The assertion here seems to be just because Grey is scumreading a post of AJ's, he suddenly needs to vote him, which is pretty clearly completely wrong.

IMO this is the best case on anyone today. Otherwise I wouldn't be voting grey.

And shadonra uses that case to avoid commenting on anything else throughout the entire day; he doesn't attempt to convince people of a viewpoint that he clearly is having trouble letting go of, but instead uses the fact that he made a case to coast for the rest of the day; doesn't even attempt to point out Grey's recent post that pings him except by saying this:

I wish I could get them! I'd like to note that it's much harder to move a wagon against a scum than a town on d1, and this should be (weak) evidence for my case right now.

Which is equivalent to "because people aren't sheeping me, I'm voting scum" which is bad in every way.

The biggest problem I have with it, however, is how sticky the vote he makes on Grey is but how uncomfortable he is with actually pressing it. If he were town who was so convinced that Grey was scum, I'm certain he would have gone about it in a different way.

[Reflektor]

It's kind of annoying that people really only listened on Shadon when Nacho said it instead of me but that's okay.

An incredible day is about to dawn for me, and I am now checking out of the game until the 26th. I can focus on nothing else. Nacho will have to bring us home.

You have my apologies.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Also blow me Fate "Gamma might be town" my ass GET CARRIED SON

[Reflektor]

Considering you wanted to lynch yourself I don't see how you can complain if this flips town.

I'm holding off on judging for now, his last post gave no reads so I'm optimistic. Either way I'm gone in 2 hours sadly.

-Prism

[Reflektor]

Oh I got this mixed up with another post from someone else from another game, I thought he posted late last night. Weird.

Scratch that coinflip city.

[Reflektor]

Using the bathroom so don't have time right now but do we ready have two snap votes in LyLo???

[Reflektor]

Would appreciate if we brought OOG attacks out of the thread, they have no place here and are more likely to raise emotions higher than they need to be.

[Reflektor]

I am not sure it was his intention so much as he got a bit too invested in his push against you; I can see his frustration unfolding in a couple of places that I be happy to.quote in a second, on break at work and don't have a whole lot of time so apologies for syntax errors galore

[Reflektor]

Vote: Grey

[Reflektor]

Please don't let this transition into a ragefest.

[Reflektor]

I do think that voting early was a mistake but think that it's a mistake in LyLo in general; had we slowed things down a bit I probably would be angling at BBMolla for the mislynch which might have railed him back at me hard enough where we would have been caught pretty easily.

[Reflektor]

No rage here.

Rubbing the bastard's face in his stupidity.

Still trending over the line.