Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

Quilford · Post Post #6 (isolation #0) » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:03 pm

In post 3, Magister Ludi wrote:I had two prelim questions about the newbie games.

1. Are themeing things precluded entirely? i.e. giving everyone flavorful names but regular roles
2. What is this site even shooting for with the newbie games? Teaching? Fun? Even winning percentage? Or a mix of two or three?

I can't really answer 1 for sure, but for 2 I'd definitely argue fun and even winning percentage. What's the point of teaching a newbie how to play at MS if they're not going to want to play?

Quilford · Post Post #7 (isolation #1) » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:13 pm

I think JK9 is a pretty good Open setup, I think however that it's best to have a variable Open setup for the Newbies, and the scum should have some sort of PR.

So if we could model off JK9, that'd be cool!

Quilford · Post Post #9 (isolation #2) » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:33 pm

just to be clear, i meant if the setup is open, it should also be variable

i can't really put into words why. i think it probably discourages lots of setup spec/discussion, and is generally more interesting

Quilford · Post Post #11 (isolation #3) » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:31 pm

/shrug

I really like your Revised 2of3, but you really need another Town PR that can be chosen.

Quilford · Post Post #13 (isolation #4) » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:58 pm

Yeesh. Surely there's a simpler role.

Quilford · Post Post #72 (isolation #5) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:34 pm

Unfortunately, the nature of play on EM means that setups like the original newbie setup (2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 3 VTs) are balanced. (It has a 50% Town / 49% Mafia win rate.)

Quilford · Post Post #76 (isolation #6) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:43 pm

Look, the problem with many of those setups is that they are confusingly heavy on role interactions and most require claiming Day 1 as part of an optimal strategy for town, both of which completely go against site meta.

Quilford · Post Post #78 (isolation #7) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:47 pm

What's your point? I'm saying that indicators of balance on EM won't translate as indicators of balance here.

Quilford · Post Post #79 (isolation #8) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:48 pm

Because the original newbie setup on MS was deemed unbalanced and yet on EM it has a 50/50 winrate.

Quilford · Post Post #84 (isolation #9) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:56 pm

In post 80, Timeater wrote:"Confusingly heavy on role interactions" lol, you're being silly. There are no gambits on MS anymore. There are no CCs. Its really boring. Its producing really boring players and a really boring meta. Thats my opinion. As far as claiming on D1, uhh no not really. Not in those setups. Except for GAI. Which I know MS would never go for strictly on a numbers basis. Quilford, I dont know if you have ever played competitive em outside training lobby or if you know what its really about, and you are entitled to your opinion, but can you not turn this into an EM-bashfest? Thanks bro.

uh lol mate

claiming day 1 happens in vdli (bp and orc claim pr) and gai -- so that's half of the setups you've managed to list

moreover i played on em for a long time and still do occasionally (proof)

so please don't make stupid assumptions kthx

Quilford · Post Post #85 (isolation #10) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:57 pm

'bro'

Quilford · Post Post #87 (isolation #11) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:00 pm

I realise this, Flay. However, it is also being run as an open setup on EM, and there it is not considered unbalanced.

I am using this as an example of how we shouldn't bring 'balanced' EM setups to MS.

Quilford · Post Post #92 (isolation #12) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:17 pm

In post 88, Timeater wrote:You cant argue with the numbers.

Yes you can.

In post 88, Timeater wrote:
Quil wrote: the nature of play on EM means

This just strikes me as bitterness and bias.

I meant that days and nights are much shorter, and posts are restricted to a couple hundred characters. So it's hard to build up cases on people, especially when 8 other players are posting faster or at the same rate as you.

I didn't mean EM players are bad. I honestly didn't.

Faraday wrote:(And mafia is mafia to a degree, I think the em setups could easily work here I just don't think for the newbie queue)

This is true.

Quilford · Post Post #97 (isolation #13) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:56 pm

Timeater, this is all really irrelevant. It doesn't matter who is playing truer to normal Mafia. I don't mind the style of play. The point is that the two sites are so different and that good setups on Epicmafia most of the time will not translate to good setups over here. Especially for newbies.

Let's get back on topic.

Quilford · Post Post #104 (isolation #14) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:04 pm

I like Bird too.

Quilford · Post Post #113 (isolation #15) » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:32 pm

I'd in to mod if we made the setup Bird 7P.

Quilford · Post Post #134 (isolation #16) » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:40 am

mastin, Newbie Games are for the newbies. If veteran players don't want to be burdened with teaching, they can in as an SE or join a different queue.

(I'm pretty sure that as an IC you can in as an SE.)

Quilford · Post Post #207 (isolation #17) » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:04 pm

Nexus: lots of the individual setups are unbalanced / unfun.

Quilford · Post Post #210 (isolation #18) » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:26 am

In post 208, Hume wrote:Lots is an exaggeration. It's difficult to quantitatively assess whether something is "fun" or not, other than a large scale survey asking people whether they found the format they just played fun (which hasn't been done, afaik). We can assess balance a little better. As a rough definition, you could say something is acceptably balanced if neither side has more than 10% advantage of succeeding than the other side (so nothing worse than 45:55 or 55:45); and if we say that it is statistically significantly unlikely a format is acceptably balanced when the probability that the win ratio recorded or or a win ratio more extreme than the one recorded occurs is less than 10%, then we have sufficient evidence to conclude that Cop/Doctor is too town-biased, and Doctor/Town is too scum-biased. That's two of the six possible draws.

*shrug*

When I was collecting data I went through several post-game posts seeking moderator stuff and I recall seeing people claim they hadn't enjoyed the game several times.

Quilford · Post Post #300 (isolation #19) » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:30 pm

In post 288, Majiffy wrote:The only downside with using the top 3 is that scum knows there are 2 PRs if they have a RB. Other than that, using the top three seems alright.

Also, town is shit at single Doc setup.

Quilford · Post Post #316 (isolation #20) » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:47 pm

In post 305, BBmolla wrote:
In post 300, Quilford wrote:
In post 288, Majiffy wrote:The only downside with using the top 3 is that scum knows there are 2 PRs if they have a RB. Other than that, using the top three seems alright.

Also, town is shit at single Doc setup.

Apparently better than the one with the cop.

(Still shit, though.)

Quilford · Post Post #612 (isolation #21) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:27 pm

Code: Select all

Mafia Goon		  Mafia Goon		   Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	  Town Tracker		 Town Doctor

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies for 2:7.

/setup idea

Quilford · Post Post #613 (isolation #22) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:37 pm

So basically:

2x Mafia Goon vs. Town Cop, 6x Vanilla Townie
2x Mafia Goon vs. Town Roleblocker, Town Tracker, 5x Vanilla Townie
2x Mafia Goon vs. Town Roleblocker, Town Doctor, 5x Vanilla Townie

Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon vs. Town Cop, Town Roleblocker, 5x Vanilla Townie
Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon vs. Town Doctor, Town Tracker, 5x Vanilla Townie
Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon vs. Town Jailkeeper, 6x Vanilla Townie

Mafia 1-Shot Strongman, Mafia Goon vs. Town Jailkeeper, Town Roleblocker, 5x Vanilla Townie
Mafia 1-Shot Strongman, Mafia Goon vs. Town Cop, Town Doctor, 5x Vanilla Townie

Quilford · Post Post #614 (isolation #23) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:00 pm

Maybe replace the Miller with an Innocent Child (activate via PM type).

Quilford · Post Post #616 (isolation #24) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:16 pm

Commuter / Bodyguard / Bulletproof?

Quilford · Post Post #617 (isolation #25) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:17 pm

My order of preference is Bodyguard >= Bulletproof > Commuter.

Quilford · Post Post #618 (isolation #26) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:28 pm

Or even Tracker? EDIT: Edited Tracker in.

Quilford · Post Post #623 (isolation #27) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:40 pm

Only problem there is if each targets the other and then the Mafia try to kill the Roleblocker w/out the Strongman power. In that case, the Roleblocker should survive.

Quilford · Post Post #653 (isolation #28) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:53 pm

In post 653, Cheery Dog wrote:I think it without diagonal options would be better, it removes the higher chance of town roleblocker from the setupand each square gets the same amount of possible uses. (2)

Neither of these are really a good thing, really? The only advantage I see to removing diagonals is that it gets rid of the Cop + RB + Rolecop setup, which people think could be townsided (but I kinda disagree).

Quilford · Post Post #654 (isolation #29) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:54 pm

In post 641, zoraster wrote:What should the setup be called? Matrix6?

I like 8Matrix or Matrix8 if we're not going to remove the diagonals.

Quilford · Post Post #655 (isolation #30) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:59 pm

I don't really see anything wrong with having Town Roleblocker and Mafia Strongman in there. They're both pretty simple roles, and whilst Strongman's not common, it's not very rare either.

Quilford · Post Post #660 (isolation #31) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:27 pm

I'd also favour the roleblocker, thinking about it.

Quilford · Post Post #683 (isolation #32) » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:33 am

Clearly the solution to the alleged problem that a scum lynch is disastrous when a Town Roleblocker is still alive is to limit the Roleblocker's shots.

Quilford · Post Post #707 (isolation #33) » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:31 pm

I've totally /inned to the Micro Queue to test my setup.

Quilford · Post Post #768 (isolation #34) » Thu May 02, 2013 4:03 am

Huzzah!

*sneaks off to copyright the Matrix format*

Quilford · Post Post #818 (isolation #35) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:23 pm

Swap out the Town Doctor for a Town Bodyguard and the Mafia Roleblocker for a Mafia Rolecop is my suggestion.

Quilford · Post Post #851 (isolation #36) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:03 am

The setup was hard and demoralising for town; after statistics were compiled, it was found that scum won more than 60% of the time. Setup balance is held in high regard here, so it was decided that a setup with a more even win rate for both factions should be found.

Quilford · Post Post #853 (isolation #37) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:26 am

In post 852, Human Sequencer wrote:A) Creating a low-stress environment for newbies to learn in for their first few games, with the hope of them enjoying themselves and wanting to play more, or

This is the priority afaik, but good balance is an important factor in having people enjoy a game. If you create a game that is weighted more towards one faction or the other winning from the outset, the players who have been randomly assigned to the disadvantaged faction will feel unfairly maligned if they begin to lose.