Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[I Am Innocent]

Culted, please remove your fos on everyone. It's making the vote counts hard to read.

Seconded.

I kinda like Kairal, Cloud, and Mini so far.

Grey's vote was opportunistic.

Vote Grey

[I Am Innocent]

Culted, please remove your fos on everyone. It's making the vote counts hard to read.

Seconded.

Thought Flubber was addressing the mod.

@mod, can you have a separate FOS chart or remove entirely from the vote counts. It is very messy/not a fan

[I Am Innocent]

So what is AI at this point?

[I Am Innocent]

Sorry busy in real life. Tomorrow is a half day for me so will catch up then. My apologies all

[I Am Innocent]

Sorry busy in real life. Tomorrow is a half day for me so will catch up then. My apologies all

Yeah the half day came and went. If I can't get caught up by the end of the weekend, I'll replace out. Sorry all and thanks for your patience

[I Am Innocent]

That being said (as I've highlighted already) Saj is doing very little

That's kind of part of his meta on Day 1.

I assume you mean his town meta? How is his scum meta different?

As of this post, my top 3 scum reads are Jin, IO, & Newman.

[I Am Innocent]

That being said (as I've highlighted already) Saj is doing very little

That's kind of part of his meta on Day 1.

I assume you mean his town meta? How is his scum meta different?

As of this post, my top 3 scum reads are Jin, IO, & Newman.

How did i get lumped in your scumreads? Is there reasoning?

Cause I'm a good scum hunter and you are apparently bad as scum.

That being said (as I've highlighted already) Saj is doing very little

That's kind of part of his meta on Day 1.

I assume you mean his town meta? How is his scum meta different?

As of this post, my top 3 scum reads are Jin, IO, & Newman.

Why aren't you voting one of them, then?

Can I finish my catchup first? Make sure I still feel good about this list as I still have 12 pages to go.

Grey's vote was opportunistic.

Vote Grey

Speaking of voting, yours was hypocritical.

At four pages into a game, EVERY vote is opportunistic. Including yours.

This post of mine was out there for five days, why are you just responding to it now?

[I Am Innocent]

This post of mine was out there for five days, why are you just responding to it now?

What do you expect that question to accomplish?

Do you think scum or town are more/less likely to miss a post?

I expect to try to find what your agenda is. Are you saying you missed a vote on you back on page 4? Then missed my name next to yours each vote count thereafter?

[I Am Innocent]

And 'hungry/happy' is actually 'hellooo' for HelloNewman....

His post 79 is fine, calling CK out for congratulating himself on a townslip is all well and good. The only issue is HelloNewman never actually interacts with anyone outside of CK and tunnels a bit that he's scum long after most of us have him as town. I don't mind contradictory viewpoints, but with an unpopular view comes a burden of proof, and I don't think Newman attempts that at all in his post. His reasoning CK is scum doesn't change at all (propped himself up on a townslip) even though he challenges CK multiple times through different wordings for the same thing. As I've said, I feel CK's play there was anti-town (aka looking at himself instead of others) but still NAI. Newman should've been tasked at building a case to actually make something happen rather than just stating he didn't like CK. At that point in time, nothing was happening with CK as a wagon so he either needed to drop it and refocus or force a real reason behind it.

So that's what I've got on Newman for the 4 posts so far.

Building a case? It's day 1. The post you're referring to was on page 6 (if I recall correctly). I gave you my thoughts/read on what I felt was the scummiest play so far. To me, CK was not playing a pro town game. From "hard claiming scum", to feeling the need to remind everyone that he "made a townslip", to his bizarre fight with MDS.

Speaking of which.....

I'm going to repeat this: nobody has confirmed that CK and I share alignment. Do not assume he's conftown when I die as town, or assume I'm conftown or confscum if he dies as town/scum. Like, pretty please.

No. You're mod-confirmed to share alignment. It's the only way a force replacement over playing against wincon makes ANY sense.

The second one of you dies, we'll know the date of the other. I just happen to believe you're both town.

Here's the thing. We KNOW that Cloud was replaced because he was playing against his wincon. We know this because the mod told us so. Now, I'm not saying that the mod "lied" when he later attempted to clarify. I believe that the mod accidentally said too much when announcing he was replacing Cloud, and was simply trying to cover for it and progress the game, hop get that would be the end of it.

So, Cloud was playing against his wincon. Which means that when he locked his vote onto MDS for the game, he was playing against his wincon. That is only accomplished in 1 way. If they are BOTH scum. If they are opposite alignments, then him voting her is not against wincon. If they were both town, then his voting her is not against wincon (because as town, Cloud would have no way of knowing that MDS was also town). However, if both are scum, that would punch the ticket.

I'm more than happy to lynch either MDS or Shadow today, preferably MDS. She is a strong voice that, as scum, could really dictate the narrative to the scum advantage.

Unvote Cloud/Shadow

Vote MDS

aka, let me find a horrid reason to move from my single vote on cloud/shadow to the already formed wagon of two MDS.

[I Am Innocent]

@Newman: You reali that if MDS flips town then you would most likely be next, right?

Why did you address this to him vs. other people that have voted MDS post-cloud force replace?

[I Am Innocent]

Well its blatantly obvious to me who scum is, ill give you a hint, its flubber. He doesnt take much interest in the game until he feels he can strike at an opportune time and argue his way into getting a player lynched. He also, like Massive, doesnt really explain much. He also is just pointing fingers at MDS and pushing the points she is making aside. Its sort of like when you argue with your parents and they say "That doesnt matter, listen to me, i am the parent" he is just deflecting what she says with minimal effort.

I'm sad that nobody wanted to vote this with me.

I'm sorry I fell behind or I would have been there the whole time with you on this.

Cult, Cloud/Shadow, MDS, Karail, Grey are pretty obv town at this point.

[I Am Innocent]

@mod

An actual votecount instead of just saying "VC" would be great. : )

Rather a newman lynch > massive at the moment. With massive he's got a track record of bonking heads with mds so the benefit of the doubt that he's just tunneled and omgusing is there and despite how bad the push is as a whole I can kinda see the where he's coming from on the 'protest too much' stuff if I squint.

And on the other hand, like grey said, newmans mds vote is just pure opportunism.

My other preferences are jin and io; more enthusiastic about jin. Also kinda don't think these two are scum together.

Wouldn't end the day without content from IAMI.

Pretty much sums up where I'm at at this point.

[I Am Innocent]

Newman's town but the scummiest of the group solely, not that he had other content, from the push that the only way Cloud could have been replaced is if he was Mafia hard bussing. His reason for the initial tunnel was also pretty trash with it just being that he claimed scum which no one should even take seriously. The other part of his scum read of Cloud that they were overly pushing the town slip was OK and a valid argument I think. The reason I think he's not scum pushing for 2 mislynches, as he's pushing to lynch both of you, is just because of how genuine he is in the push itself. He is stubborn, but not scum.

cult still think IO can't be scum with Newman?

[I Am Innocent]

crap, u said jin and io can't be scum together, my bad

[I Am Innocent]

I'm not seeing scum in massive.

Just clumsy town.

Can we lynch in {Newman, Io,

IAI

Jin} please?

Certainly.

unvote Grey
vote Newman

[I Am Innocent]

Just clumsy town.

Hey I never promised you a ballet.

I'm not seeing Newman (you can probably guess why) and not crazy about your company on that wagon. Talk to me about I Am Innocent? What has you putting him into the scum pile?

His attempt to push me with setup questions that don't come from a town mindset.

Get your setup questions crap out of here. Your obv town since page 12, but when I put out a scum list of 3 players and saw someone immediately attacks me for something I posted on page 4, yeah, I wondered if there was some chainsawing going on and I hit the mark on 2 scum and #3 was coming after me. Since I now feel your town, I obv don't think you had ulterior motives with that post.

[I Am Innocent]

@Newman: You reali that if MDS flips town then you would most likely be next, right?

Why did you address this to him vs. other people that have voted MDS post-cloud force replace?

The post above that one 544 is the reason for that post.

EBWOP

But why? It was the third vote on that wagon, what specifically did Newman do differently than the other two voters for MDS?

[I Am Innocent]

One other thing I'd care to have before this day ends is from Flubber

Flubber, who else do you suspect besides massive?

[I Am Innocent]

I'm fine with Io as well.

[I Am Innocent]

Why fall for the same trick massive already did? I dunno it doesn't seem all that likely to be scum play to me.

He didn't. massive voted for adjacent reasoning. Newman piggybacked my trap logic.

This feels like a semantics debate waiting to happen. I'll sidestep it. The question I'm really getting at is: Was Newman's vote opportunistic? I don't think it was. By the time he voted Mini most of town had agreed that the mod confirmed mafia argument was a non-starter. If he were just voting for the easiest to lynch town why not jump on any of the other people I mentioned. There are too many for them all to be scumpartners so he passed over an easy mislynch on a town to argue for a fairly difficult lynch in Mini.

It just doesn't really make sense to choose the hard road rather than the easy road. More likely he just genuinely believed the mod confirm argument (even though I agree it's not a very compelling one).

Scum also like to tunnel and minimize scum reads to not help town when they do flip.

There was a game recently where scum was like 'I'm fine with either transcend or maria D1', and moved his vote between them D1 depending on who was the bigger wagon.

Newmans play/tunneling here feels very similar to me.

[I Am Innocent]

ISO michaelsableheart in this game and ull see he goes back and forth between the Maria and transcend/Gigi slots:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[I Am Innocent]

Scum also like to tunnel and minimize scum reads to not help town when they do flip.

There was a game recently where scum was like 'I'm fine with either transcend or maria D1', and moved his vote between them D1 depending on who was the bigger wagon.

Newmans play/tunneling here feels very similar to me.

I have two players in willing to vote.

How is my play any different than what you're describing?

Well you have expressed many reads/different votes today: Cloud, AJ, MDS (gimmick), massive, Newman, IO

Look at Newman's ISO. It is all Cloud/Shadow or MDS.

[I Am Innocent]

Y'all are silly.

If you were Newman and you were town, wouldn't you believe that scum is driving your wagon? Because calling the people wagoning him silly doesn't give me the vibe that he feels that way.

Nothing about him has felt town to me.

[I Am Innocent]

I hate slow internet.



(too)

Shadow, any reason you haven't moved your predecessor's vote off of MDS? Where are you at currently?

[I Am Innocent]

Just kind of sat at my computer doign things for 30 minutes then suddenly realized I was forgetting something. So. Here I am.

A little new at this but
VOTE: CloudKicker
Cuz you're standing out more than others

I want to kill you just for that logic.

OK caught up.
Firstly wanted to address the 144 since I disagree with that entirely. I get the vibe from Cloud that they are trying to convince people they are town from the town slip, but Cloud's logic as to why it's a town slip is pretty shaky yes town slip quite a lot, but really thinking there is 9 players isn't much of a slip if anything it's just you didn't read. Kai also mentioned Town are usually in a panic under pressure but I think that's more a personal thing, I for one always try to remain calm even if it's frustrating being ignored.

VOTE: AJ

I'm going to have to agree with Kai after reading their accusation.
I don't really agree with the SAJ wagon in general after hosting a game with him, he mostly just feels like a fairly easy mislynch to push.

Io, do you think your wagon vote of one of AJ is going to go anywhere?

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah nvm, you were baiting.

And nvm my question at the top of this page, ur apparently still catching up.

[I Am Innocent]

Well, you all can vote on any wagon you want as it seems there is a few (massive, Io, Newman) but i think there are too many thoughts and conversations and not enough cohesive togetherness or focusing on a player we all think is scum. The scum have done exactly what they set out to do and have caused confusion among the town.

Why the negative attitude. I personally am happy with most of the wagons here, and would be shocked if none or only one of them are on scum.

[I Am Innocent]

I mean most of the Io supporters also seem to be good with Newman and vice versa, so once again, how can you say there is "not enough cohesive togetherness or focusing on a player we all think is scum"

Guys if I bite the dust, please don't let Jin make it to end game.

[I Am Innocent]

I mean, I'm pretty sure you're voting me currently, man a vote count would sure be nice.

5 HellloooNewman (culted, AJ, IAI, Grey, Shadow)
4 massive (Flubber, MDS, Jin, Kairal)
1 MiniDeathStar (Newman)
1 Aj The Epic (Io)
1 Io (Dierfire)
1 Secret Agent Jin (massive)

7 votes needed for lynch.

At least that's what I got.

Still think the AJ and MDS votes are wasted votes. I don't see either of them taking off. I'd be ok switching to Jin or Io, but am totally happy with Newman at this point.

[I Am Innocent]

Deadline is (expired on 2016-12-19 23:30:00)

[I Am Innocent]

@IAI I unvoted some time ago.
Debating whether or not to push Flubber a bit, but it's really not going to do anything, not like I can do much to convince you guys that Newman is pretty clear town.

VOTE: Massive

Just looked thru ur ISO and yeah no unvote.

[I Am Innocent]

Also I don't see why you would use my ISO to justify not lynching massive.

Um I'm just trying to figure out why you lied.

Can we get an official vote count please?

Wow this is all you have to add?

[I Am Innocent]

Can we get an official vote count please?

Anyone else notice that this post was made 47 hours and 49 mins after his last one?

I guess prod dodge would have looked too scummy...

[I Am Innocent]

I mean, I'm pretty sure you're voting me currently, man a vote count would sure be nice.

5 HellloooNewman (culted, AJ, IAI, Grey, Shadow)
4 massive (Flubber, MDS, Jin, Kairal)
1 MiniDeathStar (Newman)
1 Aj The Epic (Io)
1 Io (Dierfire)
1 Secret Agent Jin (massive)

7 votes needed for lynch.

At least that's what I got.

Still think the AJ and MDS votes are wasted votes. I don't see either of them taking off. I'd be ok switching to Jin or Io, but am totally happy with Newman at this point.

Like this was on the same friggin page for crying out loud?!!??

[I Am Innocent]

Dude you only fake hammer when Newman is online so they may accidentally claim scum.

So why did u lie about the unvote? It's not like u've made a ton of votes/unvotes this game that you would have forgotten.

[I Am Innocent]

just checked my spreadsheet and u made exactly one vote and no unvotes at the point of the lie lol

[I Am Innocent]

Someone claim intent/call for a claim. This game ain't likely to progress until we force Newman's hand.

[I Am Innocent]

Dude you only fake hammer when Newman is online so they may accidentally claim scum.

So why did u lie about the unvote? It's not like u've made a ton of votes/unvotes this game that you would have forgotten.

What?

@IAI I unvoted some time ago.

Debating whether or not to push Flubber a bit, but it's really not going to do anything, not like I can do much to convince you guys that Newman is pretty clear town.

VOTE: Massive

[I Am Innocent]

just checked my spreadsheet and u made exactly one vote and no unvotes at the point of the lie lol

[I Am Innocent]

For the record, I don't believe the claim but am not so sure that I'd risk lynching a cop D1. Let's see what N1 brings and what Io's alignment is before we consider lynching a claimed cop.

unvote Newman
vote Io

Also down for jin lynch too.

[I Am Innocent]

That's L-1 by the way.

[I Am Innocent]

Io, what's ur read on Jin?

[I Am Innocent]

I want to know if Newman and Io are willing to vote Jin.

[I Am Innocent]

VOTE: massive

Two votes all game. Massive in post 10 and now Massive here. I need more than this. Based on the flips, who else do you think is scum with Massive?

VOTE: We Get Tacos

Great contribution so far. I still think you're scum.

vote Secret Agent Jin

[I Am Innocent]

@culted, why did you hammer Io before giving her a chance to claim?

[I Am Innocent]

Need more from Dierfire. So far two votes, Cloudkicker/Shadows slot (who I read town) and Io. 21 posts between him and his predecessor.

[I Am Innocent]

Need more from Dierfire. So far two votes, Cloudkicker/Shadows slot (who I read town) and Io. 21 posts between him and his predecessor.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 4&sr=posts

Dierfire's predecessor had no problem joining another game and being active there. Newbie scum pressure?

I'd say Dierfire is my #2 suspect at the moment.

[I Am Innocent]

Almost 20 posts and not one person has commented on the following:

Need more from Dierfire. So far two votes, Cloudkicker/Shadows slot (who I read town) and Io. 21 posts between him and his predecessor.

Need more from Dierfire. So far two votes, Cloudkicker/Shadows slot (who I read town) and Io. 21 posts between him and his predecessor.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 4&sr=posts

Dierfire's predecessor had no problem joining another game and being active there. Newbie scum pressure?

I'd say Dierfire is my #2 suspect at the moment.

Makes me feel even better about scum Dierfire

[I Am Innocent]

Everyone, your read & willingness to vote/not vote for Dierfire in your next post please.

[I Am Innocent]

Everyone, your read & willingness to vote/not vote for Dierfire in your next post please.

Townlean. I don't think I want to vote him atm. Replacing out is not alignment indicative.

Sorry blanket statements about what is and isn't AI don't work with me. I look for motive:

1) Elhabe waits until post 101 to make her first post here.
2) Elhabe apologizes for her one and only post.
3) Elhabe votes for a completely horrid reason...once that someone like you might argue is not AI (or even not likely scum alignment indicative)
4) Elhabe replaces in another game (albeit a Newbie one that could be contrived as easier)
5) Since I shouldn't talk about other ongoing games, I will just say to all of you, look at when her first post was there, look at her next posts, and see if you see the same Elhabe there that you do here.

Sorry I don't. So yeah, I think this replace out is AI, sue me. My guess is scared little Elhabe was scum and replaced out here...

A little new at this but
VOTE: CloudKicker
Cuz you're standing out more than others

[I Am Innocent]

Interesting you didn't include me as a player that would have to be town if Jin is town since I've pushed Jin more than anybody not named culted. Which interestingly enough you didn't mention him either...

Care to explain why?

[I Am Innocent]

Interesting you didn't include me as a player that would have to be town if Jin is

town

scum since I've pushed Jin more than anybody not named culted. Which interestingly enough you didn't mention him either...

Care to explain why?

Typo fixed

[I Am Innocent]

No I heavily suspected Jin. Both D1 and D2, just as much as newman. Io was my third choice. Needless to say my reads have sucked this game.

As for my D2 suspicion of the dierfire slot, it had to do with

1) replace out by elhabe
2) poor quantity and quality vote history of that slot
3) wishiwashiness of dierfire late D2

I may be or might expect we have an even night cop as well. I would play or strongly suggest that player not divulge any information from said investigation until this day has played out some (say a week).

I agree with AJ that we should all produce top 3 list at this point of who we suspect/ would be willing to vote. I'll do so as well once I get access to my work computer which has the vote history (prob Saturday). No reason to rush votes at this point.

[I Am Innocent]

6 - Io: Dierfire, MiniDeathStar, Aj The Epic, HellloooNewman, -Grey-,

I Am Innocent, culted

Secret Agent Jin (6)

culted , I Am Innocent

, Flubbernugget , massive , -Grey- , Kairal LYNCH!

Either we were all absolutely totally wrong as town and scum didn't even need to wagon these people (and make themselves look bad), or scum decided to sponsor them a little bit.

Do you notice a certain pattern here?

Mafia theory time, regarding this and the 'who didn't believe the Newman claim' patterns you are pointing out.

Do scum usually vote together like I think you are trying to hint with me and culted?

Do scum usually like to be on all the town wagons? (Look at DGBs scumputer and it shows a greater correlation to being scum for players on some town wagons and off other town wagons)

Scum would have known Newman was town, so they would have likely believed his claim. So how would scum act? Once again I think you throw out patterns and assume 1, maybe 2 did not believe him and 1, maybe 2 scum did believe him. (Yes this assumes 3 scum total) like voting, scum are usually pretty careful to try to mix it up and blend in, not go all united together as you are hinting.

I did not like these posts by mini at all, but iso'ing her again I still think she is town. Misguided on me yeah but still prob town none the less.

Like I said I still want to check some voting histories and would like to ISO a few players if not all. Two players that I have not suspected much this game have recently caught my eye, tho one dropped a very strong early D1 town tell that is usually right :-/

More to come.

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, saw you post elsewhere today, time to play this game.

[I Am Innocent]

AJ where are you at right now?

[I Am Innocent]

6 - Io: Dierfire, MiniDeathStar, Aj The Epic, HellloooNewman, -Grey-,

I Am Innocent, culted

Secret Agent Jin (6)

culted , I Am Innocent

, Flubbernugget , massive , -Grey- , Kairal LYNCH!

Either we were all absolutely totally wrong as town and scum didn't even need to wagon these people (and make themselves look bad), or scum decided to sponsor them a little bit.

Do you notice a certain pattern here?

Mafia theory time, regarding this and the 'who didn't believe the Newman claim' patterns you are pointing out.

Do scum usually vote together like I think you are trying to hint with me and culted?

Do scum usually like to be on all the town wagons? (Look at DGBs scumputer and it shows a greater correlation to being scum for players on some town wagons and off other town wagons)

Scum would have known Newman was town, so they would have likely believed his claim. So how would scum act? Once again I think you throw out patterns and assume 1, maybe 2 did not believe him and 1, maybe 2 scum did believe him. (Yes this assumes 3 scum total) like voting, scum are usually pretty careful to try to mix it up and blend in, not go all united together as you are hinting.

I did not like these posts by mini at all, but iso'ing her again I still think she is town. Misguided on me yeah but still prob town none the less.

Like I said I still want to check some voting histories and would like to ISO a few players if not all. Two players that I have not suspected much this game have recently caught my eye, tho one dropped a very strong early D1 town tell that is usually right :-/

More to come.

For massive, the player that recently caught my eye that also dropped a huge town tell is kairal. Her posts today have been giving me scum vibes but that town tell is pretty strong.

The other player is AJ. I believe this is our third game together and the fact I have gotten zero suspicion from him despite my terrible reads is causing me some serious concerns. AJ any reason you have not only not suspected me, but also defended me this game? I feel like our other games together you were always after me.

[I Am Innocent]

For what it's worth I think you are the least scummy of the three. I'd prefer to start with culted and then see where that goes.

Kairal do you think mini and shadow could be scummates? If not why?

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

[I Am Innocent]

VOTE: Kairal

I'm unlikely to make it through N4 so here it is: I'm the even cop. Checked MDS last night, she's town. I really figured someone would have picked up on that and not made me spell it out - I thought it was AJ early on, but then it was clear he hadn't from 1954.

I've been run up so many times on Day 1 that I know what that wagon composition is. It's too easy for scum to push on something NAI (usually it's my postcount, but this time it was "explaining my vote") that they look at me as an easy mislynch. I just happen to be a little more sturdy than a D1 mislynch ... most of the time. But yeah, I was purposefully needling Kairal to see how deep he'd bite, plus also trying to survive to now to get my likely only investigation through. And personally I think he's bit a little too deep.

IAI I trust you to some extent, so do you want to talk about this towntell you saw? I saw something D1 but now I want to go back and look and see how legit it really was.

I feel this claim actually clears three people. I don't see how scum Cloudkicker gets forced replaced for playing against his win con for leaving a vote on town Mini.

Town: Massive, Mini, Shadow/Cloudkicker

As for early game tells, you know I don't disclose those cause then players change playing styles around me and stop leaving tells or giving false tells. Devalues the tell itself.

I will say it was the same tell that Hoopla had this last game that I called out, and despite Hoopla playing very scummy, held true that she was town:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8464111

(Just an FYI on this, I lied about the other two town tells, those were actually my mason partners lol)

I do want to look at the interactions of the other 5 players not listed above and not myself. See if I can find a threesome that makes sense as scum together. But prob the scum is in {Flubber, AJ, Dierfire, and culted}. Possibly Kairal too, but giving weight to that tell so less likely.

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

I'd say massive, Flubbernugget, and...MiniDeathStar, maybe? The full list would look like this:

TOWN
---
Aj The Epic, I Am Innocent, CloudKicker* (need to follow through on reading Shadow_step more carefully as discussed with Aj The Epic)
---
Kairal, culted, MiniDeathStar
---
Flubbernugget, massive
---
MAFIA

I can flesh those out more later, but in brief: I think that 1025 from massive indicates a conclusion that was formed before the evidence (that post questions Kairal but includes a vote for Flubbernugget, and I don't see a reason why the argument doesn't apply to MiniDeathStar).

I'll have a much more thorough response within 48 hours.

If Dierfire is scum, I'm guessing one of Kairal/culted is a teammate, and the other buried in his town reads (AJ?). Would he stick scummate Flubber as a teammate, less likely imo.

[I Am Innocent]

@culted, why did you hammer Io before giving her a chance to claim?

I didn't. If you're a role and someone declares intent and you don't claim you're either vt or scum silly!

Need more from Dierfire. So far two votes, Cloudkicker/Shadows slot (who I read town) and Io. 21 posts between him and his predecessor.

I haven't hated his content when he does post, though. And this is gonna sound weird but he's the only one who saw what I was trying to do during mini and cloud's early argument.

Was my subtle attempting at sidelining what I thought was tvt pretty obvious and something scum pick up on? Unbiased opinion would help.

Yes I suppose I can ask why. Given that you know I'm going to do so why not just save us all time? Can everyone who blankvoted recently or in future please do not and instead explain your vote.

There's certainly value to holding back reasoning that you're not accounting for, though! You don't want to let scum know why you're scumreading them, at least not right away. You also may want to see if other town are picking up what you're picking up. : )

Alright I can come back to massive later. I was about to lynch Cloud yesterday when he got replaced out and Shadow has basically slipped under the radar. I read through Io's ISO and either I missed it or she never really made a push on IamI - why are Shadow and Mini suddenly pointing fingers there?

VOTE: Shadow

I don't like the first line.
The last line seems like a throwaway question.

I understand why their suspicion strikes you as sudden. But why is sudden interesting in this particular instance, kai?

I am neither scum or scum. I am Jin, master townie. Anyways, if i had a gun to my head and i had to lay down a vote i would vote massive from going off of yesterday but i was wrong about Newman and IO, so maybe i am not 100% right all the time. About these votes on me, i dont seem to see a case, am i just missing it?

VOTE: Saj

I'd have voted him for that post too!

Mini's 900

Calls jin lynchbait like 5 times and then tosses shade on him for 'copying her reads' in the same post.
One that doesn't make sense and is hedgy as all get out.
Two you basically saw'd flubber for voting jin just because jin has a lynchbait rep.

Terrible look considering that this was when momentum started to shift pretty strongly against jin; feels like trying for towncred on a mislynch but not wanting to kill the traction at the same time.

Or maybe not try for towncred (depending on what kind of player scum!mini is) because that post isn't gonna look

that

good on a townflip as much as other posts would have.
But using jin as leverage while still opening the idea up for others to see him hang is more like it and is actually kinda worse now that I'm thinking about it.

Reaction test.

I've developed no reads in this games by interacting with other players.
I thought town was going in the correct direction so I just sheeped my town reads basically, the Hello flip just baffled me. Even the way the claimed I couldn't believe it at all. It seemed like it was a last ditch attempt at drawing a CC.
Been pretty crap by my own standards, so I wanted to see how he reacts and how other do to it.

VOTE: Shadow

No official top 3 for the day I found, but subtle attacks on kairal and mini, vote to Shadow. No mention of {AJ, Flubber, or Dierfire}

[I Am Innocent]

Two votes all game. Massive in post 10 and now Massive here. I need more than this. Based on the flips, who else do you think is scum with Massive?

Both of the flips were lynchbait so I can't see much to analyze from it.

I think MDS Saj and massive are scum. Why should the flips discredit that?

READS FROM PREVIOUS DAY....been mostly massive and mini suspicion this day. Some back and forth with Dierfire, need to reread outside of iso to see if it's staged scum drama or one of them is likely town.

[I Am Innocent]

The other player is AJ. I believe this is our third game together and the fact I have gotten zero suspicion from him despite my terrible reads is causing me some serious concerns. AJ any reason you have not only not suspected me, but also defended me this game? I feel like our other games together you were always after me.

So I know I've been in more than 2 with you, but I only specifically remember a game where you claimed Cop in Mastins' game and got two days more than you ever should've as scum. Other than that, you're normally kinda lurking town. In the first game, I was not only lost but knew right away that you were scum on the first cop claim. You're not really the kind of player I fret about reading. Titus, Pisskop, Ms Marangal and Nacho are the only people I really don't ever feel confident reading.

Lest I remind you that everyone in this game has terrible reads or unproven reads. As of right now, there's no middle ground. And I play by hunting motivations, seeing WHY someone would do something rather than what they've done.

Oh didn't know you were in that game. Come on, my play was friggin great. The "COP" crumb, which lined up with the fake gunsmith claim on me. Yeah the second "Fake Guilty" I had should have never gone thru, but up thru the first, that was believable.

I was thinking more along the lines of the game where I was scum vig, but claimed town vig. I thought you were after me hard that game Day 1.

[I Am Innocent]

So in these kind of situations, it becomes dangerous for the town to just continue using past philosophy. We've effectively had three lynches (I'm considering Newman a lynch protected by a role claim) and missed on all three. Obviously we're not thinking this through right.

IaI, you questioned us all on our want to lynch Dierfire. Outside of Ehable, is there any specific reason? Also, with the Jin vote the only thing I saw in your ISO was that you weren't happy with his joke vote (Which Grey did the post prior). Was it just second on the list/best remaining option?

FWIW I completely agree with Massive that the hammer by Kairal did NOT need to happen, but I've been townreading Kairal as essentially a confirmed town member.

Not feeling a massive lynch anymore. Especially now that it seems like it'd be too easy to push, this is exactly where I'd warn against seeing a wagon form unless we have good reason. Think I'd prefer to look around CK's slot again as Shadowstep's done literally nothing with it since replacing in. We need to hear more from culted because my initial town read is basically stale on that slot (Culted almost didn't post yesterday).

I think looking towards Dier (depending on IaI's response)/Flubber/Shadow area might be best for today. Looking towards, not wagoning. We have two weeks, apathy aside we should burn a decent portion of it.

Hmmm, interesting. Doubt the scum team is AJ/Dier/Flubber.

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah lynching Jin was a mistake. Sorry guys. That said he was reasonably suspicious for quite a long time. He frequently had posts that scolded people for doing exactly what he was doing, (i.e. softly casting suspicion on people without voting on them, or talking about a very small number of people). I should have left it longer but I got impatient.

Guess I should slow down a bit. Anyway I'm still feeling pretty good about Mini, AJ and Dier. I think massive is too obvious. We went down that path with Newman and Io already.

I'd also like to hear more from Shadow. Culted and Flubber were the two main Jin pushers so I guess I'm a bit suspicious there too. Although I thought he was suspicious too so not sure how noteworthy it is.

For posterity, Shadow/Culted/Flubber

[I Am Innocent]

Kind of leaning towards culted.

[I Am Innocent]

BlackVoid replaces MiniDeathStar!

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! In a confirmed town slot no less. What's up BV!

[I Am Innocent]

Key events according to IAI

1) cloudkicker went at it pretty hard with ur predecessor and was force replaced for playing against their win con after stating they were permanently leaving their vote on ur predecessors slot.

2) Newman was forced to claim day 1 and claimed cop. Io was rung up instead and was mislynched vanilla town

Newman was NKd and flipped odd night cop

3) day 2 was extremely short as Jin was lynched very quickly. Flipped vanilla town

Grey who not so soft claimed BP or JK was NKd. Nothing noted in his day 2 posts of who he targeted night 1

4) mid way thru day 3 massive claimed even night cop and that he targeted ur slot night 2 and that you are town.

Massive also had a five man wagon on him at one point day one that included two dead town, ur slot, and kairal and flubber

[I Am Innocent]

I was in a game with odd and even night cop, I was even one of them. Not sure I played with a odd or even cop game without the other. It also lines up nicely with a JK, so I'm not sure why you don't buy it BV...

[I Am Innocent]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=825

Included a vig and a miller

Vig could kill an unclaimed cop, JK could block an unclaimed cop.

Neither setup seems to have a doc (a role that could protect the cop while still allowing them to investigate)

I think between

1) massive not believing Newman full cop claim
2) his 180 on a slot many of us started to doubt
3) why would scum fake claim when there would be a reasonable chance of a real CC (odd and even night cops in the same game do exist)

Yeah I think anyone who has read the whole game knows scum massive doesn't fake claim that there. I'm banking on the fact BV isn't caught up as the reason he doesn't buy it

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

I'd say massive, Flubbernugget, and...MiniDeathStar, maybe? The full list would look like this:

TOWN
---
Aj The Epic, I Am Innocent, CloudKicker* (need to follow through on reading Shadow_step more carefully as discussed with Aj The Epic)
---
Kairal, culted, MiniDeathStar
---
Flubbernugget, massive
---
MAFIA

I can flesh those out more later, but in brief: I think that 1025 from massive indicates a conclusion that was formed before the evidence (that post questions Kairal but includes a vote for Flubbernugget, and I don't see a reason why the argument doesn't apply to MiniDeathStar).

I'll have a much more thorough response within 48 hours.

We're now over 72 hours.

I still think scum is in dier, cult, AJ, and flubber.

mod I vote for the extension as well

Probably going to vote dier unless I'm wowed in his next post.

[I Am Innocent]

@IamI : Right now there are 9 people alive so we need 5 to lynch. Assuming 3 scum and no bussing that means our only chance of getting a scum lynch is for 5/6 town to agree on someone. Right now massive is tunneling on me which means we need every remaining vote to get scum. Please don't waste your vote on Dier since nobody else is scum reading him.

And if I'm right I just let him lurk off to the sunset with a crappy win?

At this point I'm going to give my input and hope to get massive and BV on board. Town needs to trust that claim and also assume no Godfather/target was a non GF.

Otherwise scum noise is going to drown out town coming together.

Ps I'm leaning towards town in (massive BV kairal cloud/shadow/crazy poster slot, me)

[I Am Innocent]

Ok this is getting ridiculous.

AJ do you agree that in order for massive to claim this he has to know he won't be countered? If so how can be sure that there actually isn't an even cop but that we will believe there is one? If he can't be sure why is he pulling a high risk gambit?

Provide a satisfactory answer for these questions and I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea that massive is scum. However the more you string this suspicioun out without good answers the scummier it looks.

Without a good answer? With you judging? May I point out that I've given you plenty of reasoning above that you just blatantly ignored. For what it's worth I doubt scum would go after a claimed cop, especially one that has so very little chance of ever getting another result.

Massive makes the claim as scum with two reasons: He feels his lynch is inevitable (be it today or tomorrow) and scum don't have a role that counters a cop. As stated before, there's 0 reason scum wouldn't have roles to counter a cop in the event of their being two cops. If they don't have that, it's an easy claim to make.

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

The thing is that we never got a scum anywhere near a lynch Day 1. Scum don't need to push hard (and are gonna look bad on the flip if they do). I don't think Flubs play day 1 was inconsistent with your third scenario

You're either far too confident on massive being town or you have additional information.

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

I'm very close to voting this slot as well.

I've seen a number of games mentioned now with odd and even cops. Please list a few with one or the other. Otherwise your doubt casting is scummy as all get out.

[I Am Innocent]

Even if Dier is scum he has 2 buddies. He's a good player and if he's scum our best bet is that a flipped scum has posts that make it clear they're scum.

Culted or AJ?

Massive and BV, your thoughts on these slots as well?

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

I'd say massive, Flubbernugget, and...MiniDeathStar, maybe? The full list would look like this:

TOWN
---
Aj The Epic, I Am Innocent, CloudKicker* (need to follow through on reading Shadow_step more carefully as discussed with Aj The Epic)
---
Kairal, culted, MiniDeathStar
---
Flubbernugget, massive
---
MAFIA

I can flesh those out more later, but in brief: I think that 1025 from massive indicates a conclusion that was formed before the evidence (that post questions Kairal but includes a vote for Flubbernugget, and I don't see a reason why the argument doesn't apply to MiniDeathStar).

I'll have a much more thorough response within 48 hours.

I still don't see scum dier putting teammate flubber as one if his scum picks this close to LyLo.

[I Am Innocent]

Still reading. I read everything so it's going to take me a while. Can we have one more person vote extension please? Massive? Flubber? Culted? Dierfire?

By the way, no comments on my mass-claim proposal? We're a day off from lylo so unless there's some part of site meta I don't understand, now

is

the optimal time for mass-claim.

I'm fine with a mass claim too. I'd like BV and massive to agree on an order tho if we do proceed in that direction.

[I Am Innocent]

Already have

Massive even night cop
Kairal VT
Naomi VT

My suggestion would be AJ next if we precede

[I Am Innocent]

kai/naomi/iami

Flubber is an obvious deadline lynch on town if I've ever seen one.

Yep this is what I was waiting for.

All game my reads sucked and all game nobody came after me. Completely went back to the drawing board and here somebody finally comes. Am I finally on the right track culted?

Thanks for making this easy.

vote culted

That's 6/9 I think? Unless I'm missing it we still need claims from flubber, IamI and BV

VT

Wanted AJ to go first since he so disbelieved the even cop claim I was curious if he was a town power role, and had inside knowledge about too much town power.

Fact he claimed VT still has me very wary about that slot too.

[I Am Innocent]

@culted, Nobody which is what surprised me. As town with terrible reads this game I should be an easy target for scum to mislynch.

Yet no pressure outside of mini's early day 3 VCA has come my way.

Which makes me wonder, have my reads been so bad I'm no danger to scum, maybe they even want me in LyLo?

So I 99.9% believe massives claim, clearing him and mini. I go back and revisit my reads on a number of players I haven't suspected, including you whose reads I mostly aligned with all game.

Then you "go back and look at my ISO and it's terrible" crap comes.

Makes me think I'm on the right track now and u just happen to be at the forefront of that 180 I expected once my reads changed.

[I Am Innocent]

including you whose reads I mostly aligned with all game.

So if you acknowledge this and then realize precisely how sheeplurk your play was up until you softclaimed cop why isn't it understandable that you've been off my radar until you start pushing me as scum for no reason?

Interesting how I was off your radar until the cop softclaim but yet in 573 you say: "Wouldn't end the day without content from IAMI."

About 400 posts ahead of the softclaim...hmmm.

Or was that entirely about throwing shade my way since I'm pretty sure "reads being aligned" <> "sheeping"

[I Am Innocent]

@culted, why did you hammer Io before giving her a chance to claim?

I didn't. If you're a role and someone declares intent and you don't claim you're either vt or scum silly!

Need more from Dierfire. So far two votes, Cloudkicker/Shadows slot (who I read town) and Io. 21 posts between him and his predecessor.

I haven't hated his content when he does post, though. And this is gonna sound weird but he's the only one who saw what I was trying to do during mini and cloud's early argument.

Was my subtle attempting at sidelining what I thought was tvt pretty obvious and something scum pick up on? Unbiased opinion would help.

Yes I suppose I can ask why. Given that you know I'm going to do so why not just save us all time? Can everyone who blankvoted recently or in future please do not and instead explain your vote.

There's certainly value to holding back reasoning that you're not accounting for, though! You don't want to let scum know why you're scumreading them, at least not right away. You also may want to see if other town are picking up what you're picking up. : )

Alright I can come back to massive later. I was about to lynch Cloud yesterday when he got replaced out and Shadow has basically slipped under the radar. I read through Io's ISO and either I missed it or she never really made a push on IamI - why are Shadow and Mini suddenly pointing fingers there?

VOTE: Shadow

I don't like the first line.
The last line seems like a throwaway question.

I understand why their suspicion strikes you as sudden. But why is sudden interesting in this particular instance, kai?

I am neither scum or scum. I am Jin, master townie. Anyways, if i had a gun to my head and i had to lay down a vote i would vote massive from going off of yesterday but i was wrong about Newman and IO, so maybe i am not 100% right all the time. About these votes on me, i dont seem to see a case, am i just missing it?

VOTE: Saj

I'd have voted him for that post too!

Mini's 900

Calls jin lynchbait like 5 times and then tosses shade on him for 'copying her reads' in the same post.
One that doesn't make sense and is hedgy as all get out.
Two you basically saw'd flubber for voting jin just because jin has a lynchbait rep.

Terrible look considering that this was when momentum started to shift pretty strongly against jin; feels like trying for towncred on a mislynch but not wanting to kill the traction at the same time.

Or maybe not try for towncred (depending on what kind of player scum!mini is) because that post isn't gonna look

that

good on a townflip as much as other posts would have.
But using jin as leverage while still opening the idea up for others to see him hang is more like it and is actually kinda worse now that I'm thinking about it.

Reaction test.

I've developed no reads in this games by interacting with other players.
I thought town was going in the correct direction so I just sheeped my town reads basically, the Hello flip just baffled me. Even the way the claimed I couldn't believe it at all. It seemed like it was a last ditch attempt at drawing a CC.
Been pretty crap by my own standards, so I wanted to see how he reacts and how other do to it.

VOTE: Shadow

No official top 3 for the day I found, but subtle attacks on kairal and mini, vote to Shadow. No mention of {AJ, Flubber, or Dierfire}

Apparently you missed this too (tho it came after the cop soft claim so I'd think you'd have been paying attention to me by now), thought I'd share again.

[I Am Innocent]

@culted, why did you hammer Io before giving her a chance to claim?

I didn't. If you're a role and someone declares intent and you don't claim you're either vt or scum silly!

Need more from Dierfire. So far two votes, Cloudkicker/Shadows slot (who I read town) and Io. 21 posts between him and his predecessor.

I haven't hated his content when he does post, though. And this is gonna sound weird but he's the only one who saw what I was trying to do during mini and cloud's early argument.

Was my subtle attempting at sidelining what I thought was tvt pretty obvious and something scum pick up on?

Unbiased opinion would help

.

Why if you started suspecting me would you ask me for an "unbiased opinion"?

[I Am Innocent]

Beginning of day 3, I mention my belief that I think there is an even night cop (and I might even be it) and that the proper play is that they should wait until part way through the day before claiming. Not sure I'd call it a soft claim, but whatevs.

No I heavily suspected Jin. Both D1 and D2, just as much as newman. Io was my third choice. Needless to say my reads have sucked this game.

As for my D2 suspicion of the dierfire slot, it had to do with

1) replace out by elhabe
2) poor quantity and quality vote history of that slot
3) wishiwashiness of dierfire late D2

I may be or might expect we have an even night cop as well. I would play or strongly suggest that player not divulge any information from said investigation until this day has played out some (say a week).

I agree with AJ that we should all produce top 3 list at this point of who we suspect/ would be willing to vote. I'll do so as well once I get access to my work computer which has the vote history (prob Saturday). No reason to rush votes at this point.

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah I'm just not seeing scum Kairal in these recent posts.

Kairal, how about you move to culted? Curious to see if Dier even considers it...was on his 2nd tier scum list (prior to the massive claim/mini clear) which should make culted a 2nd/3rd choice for dier post claim, tho dier continues to forget mentioning a culted possibility as a lynch candidate today

[I Am Innocent]

Anywho if I get one more I'll probably just self-hammer.

Not threatening you cause I've been reported on stuff like this in the past....but just a word of caution....there are some players who blacklist other players for self hammering when town. So if you do this and your town, you might get blacklisted....not saying I'm in that group that would blacklist you, because, you know, reporting and stuff.

[I Am Innocent]

I've never seen scum vote hop the way kairal has this game. Scum tend to be more careful and calculated with their votes.

[I Am Innocent]

vote hop & reads changing daily, no make that hourly like kairal has this game.

[I Am Innocent]

Iai I am interested as to why you see Karai as town because right now they are literally saying stuff discrediting it and then play plopping a vote out with all of 0 commitment.

With threats of self hammering I withold my vote until blackstar catches up

Also I am VT

Not that I'm encouraging you to vote kairal with that looming threat, but if that is where your vote is headed, you must read kairal as scum so why would you 1) believe scum kairal to self hammer and 2) care if scum kairal self hammered?

[I Am Innocent]

Right now the votes are:

Kairal 3 (massive, culted, AJ)
Flubber 1 (kairal)
culted 1 (IAI)

I know I'm town, so if kairal is scum, where are all the counter wagons? Reason # X + a lot why I think Kairal is not likely scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Okay, so I've finished the first forty pages. Going to read up on the rest today. With Flubber's claim, it's all but assured that Massive is town. I don't think odd-night cop + JK is sufficient power at all.

I don't want to lynch Kairal. I agree that his changing votes every few hours is pretty town. I don't want to lynch IAI today either. I'm not sure about anyone else but my current lynchlist is Culted > AJ > Flubber.

@IAI - would you mind going more in-depth into your Cloudkicker townread? I remember we were both wrong on him before so I want to know where it was coming from.

my recollection and limited review of previous games supports the idea that Shadow_step is no less active as Mafia than as Town.

What are you basing this off of? In Podoboq's game, he was incredibly active and pushing things a lot before he replaced out. That has not been my impression at all.

Cloudkicker was all goofy that game, flirting with Maria, not taking things seriously. This game he seemed more confrontational.

I know we probably shouldn't put much stock into it, but the force replace out was very weird. For a while I wondered if Cloud and Mini were masons, possibly scummates. But massive cleared your predecessors slot, so why would a mod force replace cloud for playing against his win con for refusing to move his vote from town if he was scum? Doesn't line up. So unless massive is lying or you are a Godfather, I can't see cloud's slot as being scum.

I also think as crazy as Naomi's catch up has been, it feels town to me.

[I Am Innocent]

Just an FYI, I looked up Kairal's voting history, 20 total votes this game***.

To give you a reference point, Dier has 2 votes cast this game (Io D1 and Naomi's slot D3). Dier's predecessor had an add'l one vote cast this game (Naomi's slot D1). Talk about not getting your hands dirty.

***For full disclosure, the only people Kairal has not voted for is me, AJ, and himself, which I'm pretty sure he has threatened to vote all 3 of these as well today.

[I Am Innocent]

That makes sense. Where are you at with AJ the Epic?

I think AJ is scum. My recollection of town AJ is a feisty player, I have seen none of that this game. I've played a few good scum games with him too, and the fact he has not given me a second look for almost the entire game has my paranoia level's going off the charts.

[I Am Innocent]

Here is a game where AJ was on the attack very early on. Even mentions me in the 25th or 26th post as someone he will keep an eye on. I went missing much longer in this game but he never batted an eye.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[I Am Innocent]

Post 272 (Iso 25) of that game:

Meh. This with Luna isn't going anywhere anyways.

Alright, I have a proposition: Carrying dead weight into future days recently lost the town in one of my games (Micro 503). Town never got active (not an issue here) and a VI survived all the way until I replaced in and saw his posting as counterproductive to the town. Had one scum get by me because comparing resumes just meant the scum was higher% to be town. Really, if you read the game there's like nothing that makes the guy who avoids to L-1 lynches to be town.

That brings me to Zakk and Veegee. I completely trust IaI to say something eventually that's meaningful so I'm not including him. Look at these two's isos, find me something useful. If they aren't going to post, I propose they die. In this case, Luna gets an extra day to produce some scum reads, we get rid of dead weight and I get another day to be completely cynical and go get more scum reads.

Of the two, I have to say Veegee is worse. He has zero content and no votes. Both are pretty much at zero content so it's nitpicking to me.

*************************

I haven't felt any of that this game.

[I Am Innocent]

I still feel our best chance is in {culted, AJ, Dier.....maybe outside shot of Flubber}

The only of those 3 who have voted Flubber, AJ D3.

[I Am Innocent]

I still feel our best chance is in {culted, AJ, Dier.....maybe outside shot of Flubber}

The only of those 3 who have voted Flubber, AJ D3.

This fits my red read of IaI so nicely.

How exactly does this fit you scumread of IAI?

Well I'm Green reading Culted and Dier. AJ is my 4th slot and flubber is the one most people are sure of. If your red you don't wanna push your buddies but do wanna push those who you might be able to Misslynch which would be Dier and AJ (not sure why culted is there) and Given they also slightly red readed there red buddy they won't get any major heat for it later. so it fits well.

So I'm scum because ur reads suck. Good to know. Will give us something post game to chat about.

[I Am Innocent]

Also that post you pointed out is patently bad play by me (PL focus) and was largely because I didn't understand why Luna (

who I think I mentioned plays a lot like Kairal in this game in that both of them get talked out of stuff easy

) wasn't getting literally anywhere.

You talk of Kairal like he is town (playing like Luna who was town, be easy to get talked out of stuff, etc).

[I Am Innocent]

IAMI

: Did you understand that? Because ... I did not.

Understand what? AJ's response?

[I Am Innocent]

@Massive, please unvote. I do not like Kairal sitting at L-1 with no counterwagon. If you trust me and BV at all, please unvote and consider a different read. But right now, I'm pretty sure your voting alongside at least 2 scum right now, so an unvote would be greatly appreciated. You can always go back if you disagree with me and BV in the end.

[I Am Innocent]

Iai,

Look at how Kairal keeps backtracking over arguments. Are you really going to say that's town because their votes were all over the place?

What happened to people laughing down "too scummy to be scum"

There's a huge difference between acting scummy and voting scummy. Dier's vote history is extremely scummy. Your vote history is extremely scummy. Kairal's vote history is extremely all over the place.

[I Am Innocent]

For example, your voting history Flubber:

Voted Massive Day 1 IN POST 10 (never moved it)
Voted Massive Day 2 in post 874 (first vote of anybody day 2)
After Kairal unvoted Massive, leaving your vote as the lone vote, you joined the Jin wagon Day 2 as the 3rd vote on that wagon. (Post 899)
Voted Mini to start Day 3 (first vote of anybody day 3)
Moved to Massive Day 3
Put Kairal at L-1 just now

All cleared/nearly confirmed town except your opportunistic vote on Kairal

Bad voting history

[I Am Innocent]

Already pointed out Dier's poor vote history:

Elhabe in Post 101, their lone post, voting Cloudkicker "Cuz you're standing out more than others"
Dier in Post 275 voting Io (never moved vote, took until 859 for Io to be lynched)

Day 2 - Notta

Day 3 vote and unvote (1406 and 1409 respectively) of Cloudkicker

Bad voting history.

[I Am Innocent]

Probably should change the word bad to scummy.

[I Am Innocent]

There's one day until deadline and all you've got is "hey look at these lurkers who haven't voted much" and you're not voting either of them...

Like is this some kinda no-lynch attempt or what

Nice shade.

Well I had this pretty neat post all planned out threatening to self hammer again unless people started voting. I can't even do that now so...

I guess I'll just say you guys should really start voting. There is only one town player currently voting (it's me!). Maybe you thought you voted and forgot to? I am talking specifically to IamI, Dierfire, Naomi and BV. Well and massive now I guess.

My vote is on culted, who continues to prod dodge with shade at me and then appeal to fear a no lynch.

********************

Massive, where are you at besides Kairal?

[I Am Innocent]

culted, full list of reads please.

[I Am Innocent]

Massive, where are you at besides Kairal?

Man, I don't even know. If I put my Kairal read into question then too much else falls off.

I still earnestly believe one of { Kairal, Flubber } is scum based on 1.07.

Naomi will drive me insane before I get anywhere near comfortable with her being one alignment or the other.

If Kairal is town, I could be completely pocketed by culted.

It seems like it's Kairal-Naomi-IAMI vs Flubber-AJ-Culted and I'm 100% it's not as easy as that.

Where are you at? For sake of the deadline, who's your compromise lynch?

I'll compromise on Flubber. I'd prefer the other 3 tho (culted, dier, AJ).

[I Am Innocent]

culted, full list of reads please.

Considering your last set of posts had 47+ hours between them, I'm not very confident we'll see this Day 3. But worth asking...

[I Am Innocent]

Culted just shot appeal to fear of a no lynch.

What has culted done to advance the prospect of avoiding a no lynch?

Psst...it involved parking his vote, coming in 47+ hours later to make two posts against his number one attacker, then disappear again.

That's called scum play.

[I Am Innocent]

Went through Culted's ISO. Pretty confident he's scum. The measured activity level - only showing up at strategic times, the bad pushes on lots of flipped town (Newman, Io, Jin), people I know to be town (Mini Death Star), or people I'm townreading (IAI, Kairal). Townreads on likely scum candidates (Flubber, AJ, Dierfire). How in the world is AJ "obvtown?" Didn't really see any interactions that don't look partner-y from my group of four but I'm leaning towards him being scum with AJ.

Yeah this is where I'm at too. I'd lean dier over flubber but hence why I don't want to waste the mislynch.

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

I'd say massive, Flubbernugget, and...MiniDeathStar, maybe? The full list would look like this:

TOWN
---
Aj The Epic, I Am Innocent, CloudKicker* (need to follow through on reading Shadow_step more carefully as discussed with Aj The Epic)
---
Kairal, culted, MiniDeathStar
---
Flubbernugget, massive
---
MAFIA

I can flesh those out more later, but in brief: I think that 1025 from massive indicates a conclusion that was formed before the evidence (that post questions Kairal but includes a vote for Flubbernugget, and I don't see a reason why the argument doesn't apply to MiniDeathStar).

I'll have a much more thorough response within 48 hours.

Look at this list BV. Doesn't this list line up perfectly for scum team (dier, AJ, and culted).

I don't want this forgotten if culted and AJ do flip scum.

[I Am Innocent]

No, where would scum dier put his teammates? Split them up in the largest groups...one a null and one a town. Where is culted and AJ? Right where I'd expect them...

[I Am Innocent]

@IAI and Naomi: what do you think about going for AJ?

I'm fine with that.

[I Am Innocent]

unvote culted
Vote AJ

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah, we'll just wait for massive. I'm down for whichever of Culted/AJ he prefers more so we can secure a lynch there.

@IAI - what do you make of Dierfire's latest posts? If he's scum with Culted and AJ, why is he so particular about which partner he's bussing?

Well he still voted flubber (not AJ) and has kept his options open if it doesn't swing back to culted (won't say who he'd vote for between AJ and kairal).

I feel like his whole game has been full of too many town reads. Even now he has 7 players including himself who he doesn't want to lynch (leaving 2 players to lynch, 1 of which is prob town if dier is scum)

I'm with you tho, I'll be shocked if AJ and culted aren't scum, if we can get to 5 with a mislynch still in hand, I think it'll be a win for town.

At this point I'm good with either culted or AJ. Culted dier will vote for, Naomi seems ready to vote AJ, massive makes the final call?

[I Am Innocent]

I'll be in meetings the next 1.5 hours, but can check in before lunch here.

[I Am Innocent]

Off to lunch, I'll be around to check where we are at when I get back.

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah it is still culted + one of flubber/dierfire.

vote culted

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, can we talk? I'm pretty convinced you're town at this point and I want to talk about Shadow_step. Specifically with his last post, I'm completely comfortable dropping a scum read on him.

First things off, we got 25 post iso, two of which are pretty much introduction jokes stuff, from a slot that's been here since Day 1 (halfway through). CK still has 3x as much. It wouldn't be so bad if they were full of content, but here's the highest content post he has:

What's up with the IaI vote, Shadow? I don't think you've said anything about him prior.

Reaction test.

I've developed no reads in this games by interacting with other players.
I thought town was going in the correct direction so I just sheeped my town reads basically, the Hello flip just baffled me. Even the way the claimed I couldn't believe it at all. It seemed like it was a last ditch attempt at drawing a CC.
Been pretty crap by my own standards, so I wanted to see how he reacts and how other do to it.

(Now I must confess I can't use the 'post' command. Bare with me)

Spoiler:

• Alright so the first 'real' catchup post is 355, where he states Grey seems upset over losing a 'mislynch' in Grey's spot. It's unspoken, but this suggests Shadow is scumreading Grey here.
  
  
• His next real post is 670, which basically calls Io on her vote for me. By this time, I had called it, as had Kairal (255) and Dierfire (275). Granted, Shadow hadn't replaced in yes (replaces in p345) but the post (167) isn't so far in front of these to not see them, especially mine which came literally the next page. Even then, there has been a lot to happen up until 167 (specifically with CK slot, which he now reads from his conf-alignment view) and doesn't respond to any of it whatsoever. Either he's realized that it isn't particularly relevant for whatever reason (it still was as of 167) or he didn't respond to it for...???
  
  
• 677 Shadow calls Grey scum. As of this post, his vote is still on MDS, but does not move the vote. He's still on his re-read since the respond is Grey's 375. Realizes two posts later Grey was playing a game here. Specifically I find this weird for a few reasons. I think naturally Shadow would unvote MDS IF HE BELIEVED THE LOGIC he uses in 677 (game got a lot easier w/mod confirmed shit). MDS shares alignment, right? Grey's scum complaining about free pass? Natural progression says that vote moves and then comes off in 681 when he reads through the entire sequence.
  
  
• So in 683 we can assume Grey scumread is dropped. Replaces with Newman/Io scumreads. No reason given, votes Newman. Doesn't post at all during Io run up and eventual lynch. Votes off D2 with an IAI vote, who had L-1 on Io, his scum read. No explanation here, it's that awkward re-RVS stage that happened early D2. When called on it, it's the quoted post above (reaction test, no reads...).
  
  
• There's a question put out to massive (p903) (why did he revote newman after claim) but no attempts to revote even after response. Just two irrelevant questions and then 8 IRL days inactivity, coming back with his first interaction with Kairal, asking if Shadow was next on the mislynch list. This:
  

  I think the main thing I want right now is to see a bit more from Shadow.

  Is Kairal's part of the post that prompted Shadow saying:
  

  So it seems I'm your next ml target Kairal?
  I'l get caught up during the weekend.
  Meanwhile what is everyone's read on Kairal?

  It's a pretty severe overreaction. He hasn't mentioned Kairal at all before this post, and suddenly wants 'everyone's read on kairal' for suggesting (completely correctly) that we need to hear more from Shadow. Even considering the longass night 2, it had been just under 80 posts and Shadow at this point had little to no content.
  
  
• 1010 where he highlights the earliest parts of Grey's iso to apparently strike up something against me, even labeling it 'important posts from grey's iso' and then fails to commentate on it at all. All posts are the first 1/6th of Grey's iso, nothing towards later stages.

The issue is we've got no content and the only 2 held reads by Shadow both flipped town. Shadow's overreaction to Kairal and then inability to push anything towards me even though his motives obviously suggest he's thinking about it. I'm slightly baffled by 1010 because I think it's so bad that I can't imagine someone actually trying that as either alignment. Literally the definition of throwing shade, since he wouldn't even VOTE off of it.

VOTE: Shadow_step

I still want to know why you think this slot is town, because there's literally nothing in Shadow's iso to prove it. I'm also pretty sure he's still not caught up, because in one of his posts in the 800 range, he quoted a post from Jhin from the 370 range. This was D2, so he obviously had TIME to read through, but just opted not to. This game is one of the shortest games you could replace into and he didn't get through that.

Pre-Massive claim. No need to rush out and bus a teammate early D3. More reason Naomi is prob not scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Before we start: I'm not saying you manipulated the results so much as manufactured them and that the method couldn't produce anything useful if it was able to produce anything at all.

So let me preface this continuation with the following note: The only way I see Kairal doing this as town is having these reads before hand and for whatever reason trying to justify them with handwaving as to not look completely out of place. It... doesn't make a lot of sense to me why he'd do it this way. Here's the thing: One of the major reasons I've townread Kairal for so long is his reads have been fluid, have had natural progression and have made sense, even if they're a bit weak or somewhat waffled (kairal gets talked out of a lot of shit that he really shouldn't...). Especially since kairal wouldn't have a read jump on flubber if it were predetermined. Ergo read the rest of this post with kairal!scum as the control.

My biggest question is why does Kairal keep flubber's read scum after this? We know the two options: Bus, Mislynch. I think bus can make sense here but mislynch lends to a more advantageous scum motive. Kairal scumreads both me and Naomi. At this point, had he decided, he could've convinced massive/myself rather easily to buy into Naomi before Flubber. That scenario assumes Naomi is town to pass the lynch off in the first place. If Flubber was scum with Kairal, Kairal could attempt to drag him into lylo. Course... it doesn't do much, I think Kairal/Flubber would be the next two lynches.

It'd actually have been more natural for Kairal to continue a scum read of flubber from beginning to end in a hard bus. Be adamant about the lynch, gain the most town points. Doing this casts a ton of suspicion on Kairal. And really, removing Culted/IAI/Massive from her scumread list is a lot easier than going through this theatrical display. If Flubber was truly scum, this is a hard lynch to drop under any circumstance for a scum partner. Yet there are, as stated above, ways to do it. If he's town, Kairal could fumble on it, be insecure and not look super gung-ho on the lynch going into lylo for two lynches in a row that just look strange.

The drop of culted as a scum read in and of itself isn't awful. Well. Depends on your definition. Culted had been pressuring kairal pretty hard recently, and IaI, one of Kairal's other beginning scum reads, was/is pressing culted and it seems those two probably don't share an alignment. Had Kairal stated one of the two to be scum, it makes more sense. Picking a side that he believes is probably more useful to the town because it's an opinion and it's someone arguing for/against what's happening. Instead, from the looks of things, Kairal is seeing the entire thing as TvT. The piece of this that's important is culted had started to slip into the null area for a lot of people but IaI so it'd be pretty easy to bust out an easy town read. Is it possible to town read culted? Sure, but I think it's pertinent in 'reaccessing' reads to at least address IaI's point on that. In a way, this read change both follows Kairal's trend of being incredibly easy to persuade but also breaks the mold by not having really put a lot of consideration into it (as I'd argue the entire theory followed suit).

P-edit: Even with it being a response about culted's reads, it doesn't change the fact that culted has been completely dropped from Kairal's scum reads.

As far as I know, Naomi wasn't a strong scum read of Culted prior to this. I've mentioned this is odd that Kairal scumreads both Naomi and I (since we've done nothing but argue with me scumreading her, and my read on CK/Shadow/Naomi has been NAI to scum most of the game). Kairal amends it that he thinks it's TvS in 1467, but does little to explain why or who's the extra person. In fact, it's another written-in mislynch that he ADMITS to. A day away from Lylo he's giving himself a mislynch chance on a 50/50. Let's go back to Flubber being innocent for a moment. IF flubber is innocent, LYLO occurs tomorrow and scum have 3 of the 4 remaining. More than likely, they'd take that bet at a 50/50 between Naomi and I and pull ahead. Hell, they'd only need one person to vote me and then win it, so it's not really a 50/50.

More importantly, Kairal's done zilch for scumreading me all game and only started scumreading Naomi for the short period of time when Shadow came after her to naomi's replace in. And we're to believe off this method he's got a scumread strong enough to believe it on not even full VCA.

If I had to guess, Kairal's indication shows Culted scum, Naomi scum, himself scum. Naomi is biased on my own read of her but unless I'm going to read Dierfire as scum, who's basically unmentioned and a consistent town read of mine, there's not a lot that makes sense from this perspective. Flubber could be scum here and it could just be a poorly executed bus/someone that scum has determined to not live through lylo either. The one flaw is Shadow did toss some shade at Kairal, which doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, though it wasn't followed by a case nor vote so it was just shade. But between this, the Jin incident and some inconsistencies we've seen from Kairal today, I think this is it.

Culted/Kairal/Naomi|Flubber.

VOTE: Kairal

Ultimately though regardless of the method I've landed exactly on who Aj and Naomi claim is their top scum read. Neither of you have any reason to complain about that... if you're town.

...No? My top scum read was Naomi going in. And DAMN RIGHT I have issues with how you got here.

So in these kind of situations, it becomes dangerous for the town to just continue using past philosophy. We've effectively had three lynches (I'm considering Newman a lynch protected by a role claim) and missed on all three. Obviously we're not thinking this through right.

IaI, you questioned us all on our want to lynch Dierfire. Outside of Ehable, is there any specific reason? Also, with the Jin vote the only thing I saw in your ISO was that you weren't happy with his joke vote (Which Grey did the post prior). Was it just second on the list/best remaining option?

FWIW I completely agree with Massive that the hammer by Kairal did NOT need to happen, but I've been townreading Kairal as essentially a confirmed town member.

Not feeling a massive lynch anymore. Especially now that it seems like it'd be too easy to push, this is exactly where I'd warn against seeing a wagon form unless we have good reason. Think I'd prefer to look around CK's slot again as Shadowstep's done literally nothing with it since replacing in. We need to hear more from culted because my initial town read is basically stale on that slot (Culted almost didn't post yesterday).

I think looking towards Dier (depending on IaI's response)/Flubber/Shadow area might be best for today. Looking towards, not wagoning. We have two weeks, apathy aside we should burn a decent portion of it.

Kairal's still solidly town. It's gonna take more than mild shade throwing to change that for me.

Does AJ switch a read on a team member from nearly confirmed town to bus? I doubt it, esp since it would mean I'm wrong about at least 2 of the following (culted, flubber, dier), the former 2 would be easy mislynches. So yeah, Kairal is most likely town too.

[I Am Innocent]

There's a lot that happens between the 900s and when AJ flips on Kairal. I'm not saying I don't disagree, but I don't think ruling it out makes sense at this point. I know when I was reading along, the read change seemed like it progressed naturally.

(Granted, I may have some confbias because of Kairal.)

So why would a team with scum Kairal kill BV before you? They wouldn't. BV was strong town reading Kairal and strong scum reading culted. My guess is those are both right.

[I Am Innocent]

So why would a team with scum Kairal kill BV before you?

There are still people who don't necessarily believe my claim. I think either way you look at me, BV was definitely confirmed. Could Kairal say "I think I can try and push massive today, Naomi will bite, we only need a couple more"? Maybe. But I think ultimately it was going to be BV one night, me the other, and ultimately it doesn't matter because I don't get another investigate until N4. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I think I could WIFOM up some alternate answers.

Sorry, but I never buy into WIFOM for night kills. Scum do what is best for them (and then hides behind WIFOM talk), so Scum Kairal or a team that does not include Culted leaves BV alive. Like you said, one of you was going to go N3 and one N4, the order then comes down to what is best for scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Well I already PM'd the mod when the N2 ended and there was a delay, so I'll leave it to one of you to PM him about the hammer.

[I Am Innocent]

BlackVoid was killed Night 3. He was a

Vanilla Townie

Sorry make that night 3...don't even have a clue what day we are on

[I Am Innocent]

Screw all of you, letting me be the bad guy. PM sent. :-/

[I Am Innocent]

I'm really not upset, at least not at the player list. I would expect a mod to check in at least daily, or if not able to, have a true backup mod who has the ability to progress the game.

[I Am Innocent]

Flubber, Dier, what say you?

[I Am Innocent]

Well then I guess I really was being paranoid..

Well massive was just as paranoid, so no worries. The key is looking at the facts, and noting that Day 3 was the most critical day in this game because prior to the massive claim, AJ and culted had little suspicion. The claim and wagons on these players vs. counter wagons on other players is very telling.

[I Am Innocent]

Flubber, Dier, what say you?

Here, just still waiting for this. Did check and neither player is posting elsewhere since this thread open, so I'll just be patient.

[I Am Innocent]

Please nobody else vote. I want some discussion before this day ends from Dier and Flubber. Esp Dier since Flubber looks like the lynch candidate.

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

I'd say massive, Flubbernugget, and...MiniDeathStar, maybe? The full list would look like this:

TOWN
---
Aj The Epic, I Am Innocent, CloudKicker* (need to follow through on reading Shadow_step more carefully as discussed with Aj The Epic)
---
Kairal, culted, MiniDeathStar
---
Flubbernugget, massive
---
MAFIA

I can flesh those out more later, but in brief: I think that 1025 from massive indicates a conclusion that was formed before the evidence (that post questions Kairal but includes a vote for Flubbernugget, and I don't see a reason why the argument doesn't apply to MiniDeathStar).

I'll have a much more thorough response within 48 hours.

Look at this list BV. Doesn't this list line up perfectly for scum team (dier, AJ, and culted).

I don't want this forgotten if culted and AJ do flip scum.

I just want this reiterated in the off chance flubber is hammered before I get to post again.

[I Am Innocent]

No, where would scum dier put his teammates? Split them up in the largest groups...one a null and one a town. Where is culted and AJ? Right where I'd expect them...

Yeah, we'll just wait for massive. I'm down for whichever of Culted/AJ he prefers more so we can secure a lynch there.

@IAI - what do you make of Dierfire's latest posts? If he's scum with Culted and AJ, why is he so particular about which partner he's bussing?

Well he still voted flubber (not AJ) and has kept his options open if it doesn't swing back to culted (won't say who he'd vote for between AJ and kairal).

I feel like his whole game has been full of too many town reads. Even now he has 7 players including himself who he doesn't want to lynch (leaving 2 players to lynch, 1 of which is prob town if dier is scum)

I'm with you tho, I'll be shocked if AJ and culted aren't scum, if we can get to 5 with a mislynch still in hand, I think it'll be a win for town.

At this point I'm good with either culted or AJ. Culted dier will vote for, Naomi seems ready to vote AJ, massive makes the final call?

Continuation of the other post.

Long story short I have extremely strong town reads on kairal and Naomi from actions of scum day 3.

In the off chance of who we vote between dier and flubber flips town, I don't want the two of you turning on each other in MyLo in case I am the next NK.

Really the main point I wanted to get off before this day ended. Would have preferred to wait to say it until after dier posted, but I feared a hammer might have happened first.

[I Am Innocent]

Change carefully to strongly and I'd feel a lot better. I am so convinced the last scum is in {Dier, Flubber, lean towards Dier} that I'm personally willing to take full responsibility of a town loss if I'm wrong.

Well about 4 hours until Dier is prodded. I think it's okay to wait a little longer.

[I Am Innocent]

Okay, I am okay with the day ending. I'll respect Dier's wish for one last check by Sunday, so I won't hammer.

Naomi/Kairal, if flubber flips town and I die at night, please know that Dier is the last scum. Please don't cross vote. Force Dier to cast the first vote and that will confirm the person he isn't voting for as town when they next post and don't hammer.

If flubber is the last scum, then all the better.

[I Am Innocent]

Still waiting to hear diers last thoughts.

[I Am Innocent]

Okay it is definitely one of the two people avoiding this thread. No point to drag this painful waiting on nothingness any further.

vote flubber

If the game doesn't end with this flubber lynch, that means flubber is town and dier is the last scum.