Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[massive]

''i dont believe the townslip, hes scum and forced a townslip '' incoming

It's generally less good if you have to point out your own town slips.

The fact I *think* you're scum and I'm voting for you doesn't mean I'm asking everyone to sheep me on page 2; that I can probably forgive you since you said you're new here

If you legitimately believe Cloudkicker is scum as you say, why would you be actively against people sheeping you? You do this more than just here.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this exchange. I'm leaning both of you being town right now.

What specifically makes you believe Cloudkicker is town? What about MDS?

You claim scum, I will vote you without hesitation. Not to mention the overly forced "TOWNSLIP!! I MADE A TOWNSLIP GUYS!!! HEY, DIDJA SEE MY TOWNSLIP?!?"

Is it important the order in which these things happened?

[massive]

Oops forgot my random not-actually-random vote!

VOTE: Kairal

[massive]

''i dont believe the townslip, hes scum and forced a townslip '' incoming

It's generally less good if you have to point out your own town slips.

Is anyone actually reading this game, i did not point it not, black swan did

A, who the fuck is black swan, B, Kairal said "slip" and did not characterize it as a town slip, and later voted you for it. So I can't imagine why you're standing up for him.

[massive]

Ha, I answered my own question

[massive]

Cloud scum flip will make me very interested in AJ.

I'd say we just go ahead and get interested in AJ without worrying about a flip.

[massive]

Massive, I would like your read on cloudkicker. I see your 94 as not reading them as town, yet your 95 votes for someone else for *reasons*

And my vote is staying on you.

I'm leaning towards town. I haven't seen any indication that his townslip isn't genuine (and I do think it's a townslip), and after thinking about it, Kairal's townslip along the same lines probably makes them both town. I don't think either of them make good lynches today. (Or lunches, if that's a thing.)

How do associative tells not work? Like I know I've been gone for 8 months but how does the community just disregard an entire part of scumhunting? (Asking because this is something I've heard multiple times in like 2 days). They absolutely do work, Grey's just grasping at shit and hoping something sticks.

There are no associative tells between town and anybody, so trying to use them as a method of scumhunting without, you know, having a scum to tie them to really isn't a thing.

If you legitimately believe Cloudkicker is scum as you say, why would you be actively against people sheeping you? You do this more than just here.

Because last game people sheeped me and I was voting town 50% of the time. We're a majority for a reason, everyone should be contributing to the discussion, not blindly following the village elder.

A -- if you were only voting town half the time, you're actually doing better than would be expected (since town is 75% of the game) so again, why would you not want people sheeping you? And B -- honey, if you think people are going to follow the village elder, maybe you better check my join date.

Oops forgot my random not-actually-random vote!

And just like that, massive starts slowly oozing down towards the scumpile.

Very interested what it is about my vote that makes me scum. And no, 157 isn't even remotely close. And no, trying to push the town based on 157 with no additional reasons is practically bullshit.

His questions felt pointless, and that vote on Kairal was super bad.

That's fair, 99 is pretty bad as well like you always see scum trying to push people while simultaneously impressing how they should be reading someone else.

Can you quote 99 and, specifically, what is exemplary of your point above?

---

VOTE: AJ

[massive]

Oh and also, MDS: Why are you demanding that people not sheep you, and then demanding that people sheep you and vote me based on absolutely nothing but your word?

[massive]

Your interpretation of 94 is incorrect. And if you think RVS votes are actually random, then you are deceiving yourself, so what's the problem with 95?

Also, please quote the vote count and point out how many of those votes have actual reasons (including your own) and then maybe expound on why I specifically am the problem?

[massive]

"Why would you be actively against people sheeping you [on page 2]" - obviously because it gives me no information.

Why would I be asking questions that give YOU information? In any event, voting for someone and then actively working against having other people vote alongside you could mean you voted for your scumbuddy and now OOPS people are gonna run him up, so you need to start working to save him. And the whole thing is patently ridiculous because you are OBVIOUSLY asking people to sheep you:

Oh no Kairal, I wasn't talking about Cerbieber, the C I meant literally claimed scum and did obvious scummy things in some weird WIFOM attempt and it actually worked on me for a while, which is why I'm never falling for that trick again. Cloud

Killer

is getting lunched today, no way out of that.

Question is, who's on the menu after that.

before deciding "oh no DON'T sheep me!" Your whole involvement with Cloudkicker could use some better explanation:

39: Cloudkicker definitely getting lynched, sheep me
49: I'm not gonna get you lynched Cloudkicker
51: It was all a reaction test!
65: I still think you're scum but again please don't sheep me on this
80: No really guys don't sheep me
154: Cloudkicker is probably town

"Is it important the order in which these things happened?" - how is that remotely relevant?

It might be, but I don't know yet. I haven't gotten an answer to the question.

Newman

that one is for you.

These are the exact sort of questions scum would be asking to distract people and appear helpful without actually getting any helpful answers.

Were they not relevant to the current discussion, that being Cloudkicker at that time? What exactly was I distracting people from?

Very interested what it is about my vote that makes me scum. And no, 157 isn't even remotely close. And no, trying to push the town based on 157 with no additional reasons is practically bullshit.

So, out of all possible people you could have voted, you dumped it on the most obvtown person in the game for literally no reason. And, if you actually meant it to be a *random* "not totally random" vote, that makes it even worse. What motivation could town possibly have to drop a vote like that? Like please walk me through it.

Despite what you may say, Kairal is not obvtown. At the time I was not happy with how he jumped on the Cloudkicker wagon due to the d9 slip, even despite it being explained to him how his view of the slip made absolutely no sense. It made it look like he wasn't concerned with his own reasons and was willing to jump on the CK wagon no matter what.

[massive]

There are no associative tells between town and anybody, so trying to use them as a method of scumhunting without, you know, having a scum to tie them to really isn't a thing.

Then what's it called when you're assuming someone's mafia and doing association from that? Is

that

confbias or just tunneling?

Tunneling to me is when you continuously read what one individual is doing as scummy no matter what, even stretching to include ridiculous mental gymnastics just to get them to line up with your view. Confbias can go either way, but is more widesweeping (using one "fact" to affect how you read other things) and can also apply to a townread. So I guess technically a confbias, but I'm like the last person to be an authority on Mafia terms. But I wanted to answer your question.

[massive]

You... don't know how it's relevant. But you asked anyway. This is exactly what I mean.

Well, how would I find out if it's relevant if I didn't ask?

[massive]

I'm not sure I follow? Grey pointed out two scummy things about CloudKlepto and you're asking him why he ordered them the way he did. How would it be relevant regardless of the answer? Like that's literally the randomest question you could've asked.

Since holy jeezus you won't let this go and are just ruining the whole reason of asking: It's because he listed them in the REVERSE order they happened. Did he do so innocently? Or was he trying to line them up and imply that one happened as a result of the other? WELL NOW WE'LL NEVER KNOW

[massive]

Yea with relooking at 99 you don't seem to be pushing cloud.
Can I ask your motivation behind post 99 then and what your purpose was of discrediting cloud's townslip beforehand?
And also clarify what you meant by 'stick up for' kairal? Cuz in my mind kairal's trajectory on cloud the first few pages looks pretty transparent, calls out something he thinks is a slip, argues it until the realization that they're probably wrong kicks in and they move on.

Like, why do you think cloud should be taking issue with that?

Cloudkicker calling out his own townslip came across as forced, which means that it could have been faked. That was a possibility I was entertaining at that point. Hence the hand slap.

I find it really humorous how many people are like "Kairal's behavior is so obvtown!" because all it reads to me is newbscum. Like, his partners are cringing in their heads thinking how they can ditch him. Kairal's "moving on" in 66 didn't make sense to me either. His explanation post is 119 which is after 99, and I didn't get to thinking about it until overnight. That whole time, though, I'm still thinking newbscum.

--

Evidently something went down and I got distracted by writing this post, so now let me go back and see what it is.

[massive]

I find it really humorous how many people are like "Kairal's behavior is so obvtown!" because all it reads to me is newbscum. Like, his partners are cringing in their heads thinking how they can ditch him. Kairal's "moving on" in 66 didn't make sense to me either. His explanation post is 119 which is after 99, and I didn't get to thinking about it until overnight. That whole time, though, I'm still thinking newbscum.

I am not remotely surprised that my scumspect is trying to cast doubt on what's becoming a universal town read.

The best part is Kairal's partners wondering how to ditch him when he's being townread by half the village.

Horsepucky, and you know it. I was asked a question about PAGE 2. I answer a question about PAGE 2. I have said at least once that my opinion of Kairal has changed. And yet you still want to front it as (a) Kairal is a universal town read and (b) me doing something sinister about it.

And yeah, the lady doth protest too much.

VOTE: MiniDeathStar

[massive]

Grey: Since you were pushing the "both town or both scum" idea, please explain to me what changed between your vote on MDS and your jump to me.

[massive]

There's no way you can actually read MDS as town.

[massive]

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. In fact I've already stated how the early Cloudkicker-MDS interaction could have been scum/scum so her protests to not read her as sharing an alignment with CK and requesting the town to stop investigating it at all read as scum who had finally gotten over the early interaction and was making progress establishing herself on her own.

[massive]

You'd have to start with explaining how scum-CK voting town-MDS is playing against his wincon.

[massive]

Jin:

If you don't understand my reasons for votes, how can you call them "faux-biased"?

[massive]

I actually think that I'm fine with MDS trying to push this wagon and with Jin in the scumspot of the wagon.

[massive]

Directing power roles, SAUCY

[massive]

No way a mod blatantly tells another town player they're voting a town player as the reason for their replace out.

So you're not entertaining the fact that they could be scum together?

What's massive's wagon count at?

Oh there's plenty of room for you, but thanks for at least trying to appear town before sheeping MDS. You know she said not to, right?

[massive]

You'd be a lot easier to trust if you just explained where you were coming from you know that?

I'm gonna blow your mind here. If I don't explain blank votes, I never deceive you. WHOA MIND BLOWN

[massive]

Saying that implies you think mine are. So are my reads bad or are they fabricated?

[massive]

Remind me in post game that if I am the first lynch that I will bow down to your scum powers of mind manipulation.

[massive]

Kairal

: Can I direct you to 41, 47, 117, and 291, and ask you whether or not you think those votes had reasons?

[massive]

Massive why do you have time to scour the thread for other naked votes and not explain your own naked votes. Maybe I'm stomping all over some brilliant plan that comes from years of experience here I dunno. But it really does just look like a scum chucking in votes and unable to justify them.

It's day one. I don't have a brilliant plan. I also think anyone who says they have a concrete reason for voting on day one is probably wrong and scum will love having them around to exploit.

---

MDS

: Specifically can you quote my "bad logic" that I've "doubled down on"?

[massive]

My concern is not for whether you and CK are the same alignment, MDS, nor for whether the mod was correct in replacing CK for his actions. My concern is for the amount of time and effort you put into getting people to NOT LOOK AT IT, to ignore it, to claim it's NAI, and THAT is what makes me say "the lady doth protest too much." Which is, in all honesty, what "protest" MEANS. And how, of course, me "doubling down" has no actual link to factual in-thread posts. You tried. You failed.

[massive]

Answer to your direct question, which you seem reluctant to quote along with it.

So humour me, what's going to happen if I flip town and CK has been scum the whole time but everyone is considering him clear for some arcane reason?

[massive]

And I'm getting close to being replaced for playing against my wincon too and just saying I'm going to blank-vote for as long as I am in the game just to drive Kairal nuts.

[massive]

I just don't see how MDS is still running this town.

[massive]

Can we have an actual vote count rather than a post that says "VC"?

And can someone go back and re-read where i said I would blank-vote for the rest of the game to drive them nuts and NOT keep misrepping it as me saying I'm "throwing the game"? Because at no point in that do I say I'm not voting my top scumread and the "replaced for not playing to my wincon" is clearly a dig at the mod and nothing else.

[massive]

And I'm getting close to being replaced for playing against my wincon too and just saying I'm going to blank-vote for as long as I am in the game just to drive Kairal nuts.

So you didn't bother to go back and look at this and you continue to feed out the idea that any of this would actually be playing against my wincon. Good. Thanks. That definitely helps to shore up my opinion that you are nowhere near the obvtown that people want me to believe you are.

In fact, please go ahead and explain how me saying this would indicate that this:

I mean it isn't game throwing because you're a scum player playing to your win con. But if you were town it would be game throwing.

What would be the difference in my threatened action of never explaining a vote, between town-massive and scum-massive? How exactly would that sentence be a scum indicator?

[massive]

You know on second thought that might be a bit overaggressive. In any case, you need to re-assess me Kairal, and you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance because you're going to find a LOT of players who won't and who will further demand that you follow them based solely on their reputation. I'm voting who I think is scum. End of story.

[massive]

Now associative tells are cool and all but they require a flip, and you're so very far off base to begin with that you've drawn up three additional possible scum reads with no flip and no stated reason on why you think I'm scum. You've already called out an entire group to lynch through, day 1, no flips on 'associative tells'.

HOLY CATS THE IRONY

[massive]

Just clumsy town.

Hey I never promised you a ballet.

I'm not seeing Newman (you can probably guess why) and not crazy about your company on that wagon. Talk to me about I Am Innocent? What has you putting him into the scum pile?

[massive]

I'm not seeing Newman (you can probably guess why)

I really can't.

The main argument about Newman stems from his re-entry and return to the topic of Cloudkicker being force-replaced. Since I agree with the read on this, it's hard for me to look at Newman's re-entry as non-genuine. Since Grey's entire case on me was that I was "caught" following his "bad logic," and I believe that bad logic, I have to believe Newman believes that bad logic.

And I'm unconvinced by Grey's case.

[massive]

My new favorite Mafia phrase is "adjacent reasoning."

[massive]

You know on second thought that might be a bit overaggressive. In any case, you need to re-assess me Kairal, and you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance because you're going to find a LOT of players who won't and who will further demand that you follow them based solely on their reputation. I'm voting who I think is scum. End of story.

So uh a lot of players are anti town

Why is this okay and why does it excuse your play

I'm not saying it's ok nor am I trying to "excuse" my play. I don't have any issue with my play.

[massive]

Also, VOTE: Secret Agent Jin

[massive]

That definitely helps to shore up my opinion that you are nowhere near the obvtown that people want me to believe you are.

Obvtown people are such a pain, right? Can't lynch them, can't risk NK'ing them and running into the doctor. What to do, what to do... throw some shade maybe? Yeah! That'll show them!

Just because you say he's obvtown still doesn't make it so. But please continue to buddy the crap out of the poor kid. He still has no idea who to trust.

you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance

But... it *is* anti-town.

Prove it. Show me any game ever where every unexplained vote was by scum and every explained vote was by town.

I can think of reasons to vote for Secret Agent Jin, but perhaps you have others to share?

"Scum are causing confusion" (701) but then doesn't actually react to the confusion he believes has been caused as he wants to lynch one of the major wagons today and another tomorrow (712) (unless he thinks Io, Newman, and I are creating the confusion, which seems unlikely)

That being said I'm probably like five posts away from going back to MDS and locking in there for the rest of the game.

[massive]

Prove it. Show me any game ever where every unexplained vote was by scum and every explained vote was by town.

Anti-town doesn't always mean scum. Anti-town are just things that hurt town instead of helping (like lurking, claiming without reason and so on). I feel like you should already know this, so why are you pretending you don't know the difference?

How is my voting without explaining my vote "hurting town"? I feel like you should know that all of this stuff, including the stuff you just listed, is NAI, so why are you pushing them as scummy?

You know on second thought that might be a bit overaggressive. In any case, you need to re-assess me Kairal, and you need to let go of this "not explaining your vote is anti-town" stance because you're going to find a LOT of players who won't and who will further demand that you follow them based solely on their reputation. I'm voting who I think is scum. End of story.

So uh a lot of players are anti town

Why is this okay and why does it excuse your play

I'm not saying it's ok nor am I trying to "excuse" my play. I don't have any issue with my play.

How can you not have issue with something that isn't okay?

I think there's a far cry from what I said in my quoted piece (let's say, for example, like RadiantCowbells) and what I am doing here. Trying to equate the two gets you zero reading comprehension points.

[massive]

No, you're using them as reason for your push on me, who you have voted. Or are you just voting me for being anti-town?

[massive]

I mean, I'm pretty sure you're voting me currently, man a vote count would sure be nice.

[massive]

Intent to hammer.

[massive]

You continue to protect Newman and handwring over his eventual lynch. That's supercute.

[massive]

"Is it important the order in which these things happened?" - how is that remotely relevant?

It might be, but I don't know yet. I haven't gotten an answer to the question.

Newman

that one is for you.

You... don't know how it's relevant. But you asked anyway. This is exactly what I mean.

You are protecting him from having to answer questions designed to get a read on him.

Sooo...

*CK is replaced for admitting he was playing bad on purpose*
*Mini explains why it's NAI*
*mod explains why it's NAI*
*Mini explains a few times more*
Newman: Naaah, the mod fucked up. It's AI. Vote: Mini

I was going to just say "suit yourself" and forget about you, but you being the third person to latch onto that "mod confirmed alignment" bullshit is a bit too much for me to just ignore.

FOS: HellloooNewman

You're voting me for either doing exactly what you FOS'ed Newman for, or for NAI stuff.

574 intent to re-read, Newman "looks bad" but still not worthy of your vote.

Unsure about Newman, he looks kind of too scummy to be actual scum atm, if you know what I mean? Like, scum would probably be at least a bit more careful.

And then THIS piece of scumposting.

And then the giant "YOU MUST DECLARE INTENT TO HAMMER" sign and then jumping on me for stating such.

No

No you're not protecting him.

[massive]

VOTE: Newman

[massive]

VOTE: MiniDeathStar

[massive]

If you have no idea why I am voting MDS, you need to read the game again. If you have no idea why Flubber is voting for me, then you need to read the game again a second time.

And then you need to get off this pony.

[massive]

VOTE: Newman

Can you explain why you voted Hello here after his cop claim?

I did not believe his claim.

---

There's an awful lot of "I would vote massive again today but oh how wrong my reads were yesterday" going on.

[massive]

Well its blatantly obvious to me who scum is, ill give you a hint, its flubber. He doesnt take much interest in the game until he feels he can strike at an opportune time and argue his way into getting a player lynched. He also, like Massive, doesnt really explain much. He also is just pointing fingers at MDS and pushing the points she is making aside. Its sort of like when you argue with your parents and they say "That doesnt matter, listen to me, i am the parent" he is just deflecting what she says with minimal effort.

I was typing when he posted his last few posts that defend himself a little more, it all looks very suspect to me still but not vote warranting.

Why didn't you vote in 508 though? This immediately followed Grey and MDS attacking Flubber. You're basically just reiterating what they say, but aren't following through at all. Your previous vote to this is on me here:

This is what i got from the catch up. Grey is stupidly arguing with the mod about a decision he made which i aupport. Gamma felt he needed to force replace Clous and he did, end of story, move on. Shadow replaced Cloud and i am happy because Shadow is a good player and i like having him around.

Having gotten the non-important game things out of the way i can turn to the game now. I agee with Grey and MDS, whatever Massive is attempting is horrible. His posts seem weird and somehow faux-biased° yet i dont know where his faux-bias is coming from or why he is so biased towards MDS.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Massive

° I use faux-bias but the word doesnt describe how i feel. Massive is pushing and voting weirdly yet i still dont understand any of his reasons or his posts. It all seems like fake/made up pushes and posts, like he is trying too hard to pull things from where they are not.

where you show the same aptitude in buddying Grey and MDS and following their lead, but don't show the same compunction about moving your vote.

I could vote Jin but I'm bad at counting so anyone got an unofficial vote count?

[massive]

Did you learn anything from how people reacted to the claim?
What do you expect from town/scum?

I remember thinking there was a lot of "oh I don't believe his claim but unvote anyways" but I haven't gotten to that point in my re-read. Is that more scummy or towny? On one hand, with that claim it's very unlikely that a mislynch will happen, so staying on the wagon is unlikely to yield good results for scum. On the other hand, scum would know he's telling the truth and not need to caveat the wagon jump with the shade-throwing. Is that actually a towny behavior?

[massive]

(It's just 3 so)

VOTE: Secret Agent Jin

[massive]

AJ the Epic

looking slightly more town for saying the same thing (sorta) in 526 but you just assume he thinks we're scum together; why no investigation into the why there? You practically give him an out which he takes in 527. Were you happy with that answer? Your next post has you shifting gears to Newman and then pushing that ad inf without going back to Jin.

----

I don't have any issue with Dierfire. 656 is good townposting. Also I find his push on Io consistent even if ultimately wrong, which feels good to me.

[massive]

supermassive scum hole

yo dat mah theme song yo

------

Rereading this just makes me realize how hard Kairal should be townreading me by now.

------

MDS

: Why haven't you voted for Newman by 591? I brought it up yesterday as you protecting him but now honestly I'm really curious. Your vote on me was 354. You have at this point in the day spent 5 or 6 posts talking about it. The wagon on me has somewhat abated and the wagon on Newman was building. Why no vote? You eventually say "too scummy to be scum" in 777 but you clearly believe he's scum in 591.

[massive]

Did you just say "even if massive is town we should lynch him"?

[massive]

Well is he L-1 or is it really 5 to lynch? Sweet correction bro. (11 alive, despite the front page listing 12, which makes it six.)

[massive]

Kairal, can you explain how you shifted from "we have 10 days, no rush" on Thursday to hammering Jin on Friday?

[massive]

The problem with doing ANY kind of votecount analysis is that .. well, we have a lot of holes in patterns due to the lack of votecounts in this game. Anyone who wants to use it is practically going to have to go back and redo a bunch of them.

Mini, it also doesn't count the fact that you are practically rushing the IO lynch yourself - you post this:

I just love how nonchalant Io is at L-1.

between I Am Innocent's L-1 vote and Culted's hammer.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but I will also agree with IaI's post above, that if I were scum in that situation, I doubt I'd start the next day by sitting right next to my partner again, and certainly not in the very next post. (Their votes are 889 and 890 respectively.) (And 891 definitely doesn't make it seem like they're partners.)

If you want to do culted, though, I can get on board with that.

[massive]

Never mind that, after spending two days voting for me, why are you suddenly willing to switch to my biggest scumread from those two days?

[massive]

Why do you want me to waste a third day pushing for your lynch when we've seen from experience it probably won't go through?

The other people who pushed it were Grey (dead) and MDS. I'm just curious why MDS doesn't at least get the benefit of "the enemy of my enemy" here.

[massive]

@massive

I don't have any issue with Dierfire. 656 is good townposting. Also I find his push on Io consistent even if ultimately wrong, which feels good to me.

I found this while reading over again, and I've two questions. What specifically did you like about my 656, and do you still like those things?

656 is while Newman's wagon is ongoing. At that time the Io vote could have been a vanity wagon, but despite doing good work on Jin you maintained your vote on Io. I think if you were scum here, it would be easy to slide to Jin and start that wagon rather than stick on Io. The rest of that quote should answer your second question.

[massive]

Why do you want me to waste a third day pushing for your lynch when we've seen from experience it probably won't go through?

The other people who pushed it were Grey (dead) and MDS. I'm just curious why MDS doesn't at least get the benefit of "the enemy of my enemy" here.

So one of the proponents of the wagon is dead and

that's

why it's a good idea to push you again? Am I reading this right?

I'm not sure what you mean with your enemy of my enemy thing

Let me see if I can ask a better question.

D1-2 you think I'm scum. MDS thinks I'm scum. I think she's scum. Now D3 you think she's scum. So ... what's your read on our interaction between each other? You think it's scum theater?

[massive]

Does this today:

Yeah lynching Jin was a mistake. Sorry guys. That said he was reasonably suspicious for quite a long time.

Line up with this from the hammer?

Ok I'm gonna give you guys the benefit of the doubt and see if you are onto something. Reading through those ISO's has made me more suspicious of Jin anyway

---

I believe either Kairal or Flubber are scum. 1.07. At least one, not exclusively one. I don't believe I get to 5 on D1 without there being at least one scum on the wagon.

In saying that, VOTE: Flubbernugget. And now to go reread both of them.

[massive]

Flubber, can you provide more specifics on when you started scumreading MDS and why?

---

AJ : I originally started out thinking that Cloudkicker's townslip was probably legit. I got bogged down in the force-replace / MDS distraction and haven't really paid much attention to Shadow, but I can go back and reread that as well.

[massive]

I've stated more on my MDS scum read than you have your scum read on me

I'll dig actual posts up when I don't have to phone post. But a LOT of my d2 play calls out her scum read on me as an attempt at a cheap shot that backfired.

I don't even know that what I have for you is a scumread, but I feel very confident in my analysis of 1.07. Kairal gets some residual goodwill from D1-2 but I intend to explore this fully, and asking questions is how you do this. I reread your ISO and didn't see anything impressive except "sheeping" which is why I asked.

[massive]

Flubs since you're here, the stuff on MDS please?

[massive]

MDS is town. So at the very least you need to get over that. You want to come at me, feel free. But first thing you need to do is go back and re-read the post where I vote for you. One of you and Kairal is scum. So the question is, is your hyperreaction more indicative of scum? Or is Kairal's willingness to suddenly townread me more indicative of scum?

[massive]

It is. I had a good long think overnight and decided that my first two days were going in completely the wrong direction.

[massive]

Massive is pulling off a pathetic straw grasp and I can't wait to hear about it's town with a push going against the grain or some other bullshit

How is this indicative of apathetic?

[massive]

Like, I don't know about you, but if I don't care about something, I don't feel like using swear words about it for SURE

[massive]

I guess we'll see then.

[massive]

Oh but watch the mod force replace

[massive]

I think people who are reading this game know that I (a) said I believe either you or Kairal are scum because of 1.07, (b) started making an effort to determine which (which included voting you to see how you'd react), and (c) might even get that you aren't apathetic despite how large you make that font. But seriously now I need to go find other games I've played with you to see what this is all about.

[massive]

You can't say I've pissed you off two posts after bolding the word "apathetic," geez.

Like, I actually suggested you get force-replaced in BooneyToonz1 and I don't think I got this reaction.

But in there I reference some other game we played together which I can't find immediately.

[massive]

GAME NOTE: Any time I mention mod force-replace, I am making a dig at the mod. Any time I mention vote counts, I am making a dig at the mod. I put it in there as a joke, please take it as such.

[massive]

Sure would like some other opinions on Kairal. Besides MDS.

[massive]

VOTE: Kairal

I'm unlikely to make it through N4 so here it is: I'm the even cop. Checked MDS last night, she's town. I really figured someone would have picked up on that and not made me spell it out - I thought it was AJ early on, but then it was clear he hadn't from 1954.

I've been run up so many times on Day 1 that I know what that wagon composition is. It's too easy for scum to push on something NAI (usually it's my postcount, but this time it was "explaining my vote") that they look at me as an easy mislynch. I just happen to be a little more sturdy than a D1 mislynch ... most of the time. But yeah, I was purposefully needling Kairal to see how deep he'd bite, plus also trying to survive to now to get my likely only investigation through. And personally I think he's bit a little too deep.

IAI I trust you to some extent, so do you want to talk about this towntell you saw? I saw something D1 but now I want to go back and look and see how legit it really was.

[massive]

Hey Naomi I'm town, let's start with that, otherwise we're gonna butt heads, so let's avoid that right from the start. *halo*

[massive]

I didn't really like flubbs reaction to CK's faked slips but I think if they are as smart as I think they are they also might of called it and not cared as I would of if I was playing and not in this slot.

Uh .. wait what? CK's

faked

slips?

[massive]

And I would suggest to you that you be able to understand that ANNOYING behavior is not SCUMMY behavior.

[massive]

No matter what you think about my play Day 1, as I said, I'm more hardy than a D1 lynch. Maybe next time when someone says "that's NAI" you'll actually listen for a change. But we can argue this in the post-game.

[massive]

It's like reliving all the bad things I did D1-2. I've died and am in purgatory. I must have sins to atone for.

[massive]

Finished the first seven pages. Kairal and Flubbernugget are townreads. Naomi's slot and AJ are scumreads. I also don't buy massive's claim. Even night cop and odd night cop together are too convenient and I'm not sure why everyone else is. It's far more overpowered than a regular cop because that would be two additional people that the scum need to kill other than the confirmed innocents. I also don't think odd-night cop, even-night cop, and JK all exist in the game.

While my claim is true, can I just say: Jesus, THANK YOU. There were too many people just immediately shifting their opinions wholesale to accommodate it.

[massive]

Finished the first seven pages. Kairal and Flubbernugget are townreads. Naomi's slot and AJ are scumreads. I also don't buy massive's claim. Even night cop and odd night cop together are too convenient and I'm not sure why everyone else is. It's far more overpowered than a regular cop because that would be two additional people that the scum need to kill other than the confirmed innocents. I also don't think odd-night cop, even-night cop, and JK all exist in the game.

While my claim is true, can I just say: Jesus, THANK YOU. There were too many people just immediately shifting their opinions wholesale to accommodate it.

[massive]

I guess I really REALLY felt that way.

[massive]

On the flip side: What's my motivation as town to claim right now?

and ugh so happy with my vote on Kairal

[massive]

The mental gymnastics you are having to do to walk back your insta-town-read of me is impressive. Like, you didn't look that limber earlier.

[massive]

And yet you're coming up with reasons I might not be town. Why is that?

[massive]

I claimed because I don't get another investigation if we screw today up. Narrowing down the pool by two people was worth it. This way we still have enough time to get over our collective hang ups on me and BlackVoid; before I claimed there was focus on both of us that just needed to stop.

[massive]

As red you'd have no real reason to make people out to be less red for easily ML's So it makes sense to me that their Red.

What drives me nuts about Naomi is she has no attention to what she's saying. She said the above explaining her town read on Kairal. Unfortunately it says he's "red" which in her parlance means he's scum. Is this another dumb scumslip and they're partners, or is this just sloppy? I'm gun shy now because I've attacked her in the past for sloppy stuff like this and she was town. But I also feel like she isn't going to pay better attention unless she suffers continuously for it.

[massive]

AJ: Does my immediate vote for Newman's claim of "cop" not count as a crumb? Granted, I voted because I actually didn't figure there was an odd cop (seems oddly balanced, and Newman was claiming straight cop) but that on D1 should at least be somewhat telling.

[massive]

VOTE: Newman

VOTE: Newman

Can you explain why you voted Hello here after his cop claim?

I did not believe his claim.

---

There's an awful lot of "I would vote massive again today but oh how wrong my reads were yesterday" going on.

[massive]

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

No. Cop already is out of flavor due to power, and so limiting a cop by making him even-night only made sense. Making two didn't make sense, especially since Newman didn't actually say he was an odd-night cop -- just a cop. It wasn't until the Io wagon really ramped up that I considered he might be my counterpart, but my vote was already there and I figured that scum wouldn't put it together. (Part of me is trying to figure out how relevant that is.)

I picked up your defense of massive because I was specifically looking to see if anyone tried to swing the wagon away from massive when he had the most votes. Guess who did?

This is still not really "taking claims at face value." You throw so much shade on people you "think" are town, you're practically am umbrella.

Like, I honestly want to go back and compare how many times you've said you believe I'm town versus how many times you've either fed paranoia or outright said I could still be scum.

Outside BV I think AJ and Dierfire are my best townreads. Not super interested in lynching culted or IamI really either. I'm wondering how many scumslips we're going to let Naomi skate by with.

[massive]

Because I had nothing to counterclaim with. Either he was going to die overnight or he was going to survive and be the target D2, like you said. I couldn't do anything about it myself until N2, and I prioritized that over Newman. I felt he would get sorted.

[massive]

I assume you'll come back around at some point and re-read the conversation that Just Freaking Happened regarding this. Who knows though.

[massive]

My god man pick a side. Preferably the one in your role PM. I mean, if it says "scum" please continue down this shade-throwing path.

[massive]

Well, go ahead, discuss them. Culted you think is scummy because he was "defending me" / "breaking up my wagon." Do you have any other reason to think he's scum? Flubber? You have them as "not necessarily scum" for their part on the Jin wagon (954) to hammering Jin yourself to then calling their participation on the Jin wagon suspicious (968). Your own performance on the Jin wagon is WAY more suspect than theirs. What else you got?

[massive]

Also I understand it's a lot to read up on so mistakes will be made but Naomi's last post calls a claimed cop and their innocent both suspicious.

You've spent at least a dozen posts doubting my claim and throwing shade at me. Why is her action here suspicious but not the way you jump through hoops to find ways to NOT believe my claim?

[massive]

That said Flubber is pretty suspicious in general. When I was scum last game I fixated on a scum read the whole time and Flubber's certainty that we should lynch massive sort of feels similar. He also spent a good deal of Day 1 throwing suspicion on Jin like Culted.

How do you feel about Flubber's more recent posts? Still feel like he's playing your scum game?

[massive]

I did particularly like the VCA. Especially since if I do it, I get Kairal as the person who was most often not voting for the lynch. That means I'm supposed to scumread him, right?

[massive]

The immediate problem with Kairal's scumread on culted was that it was almost completely based on pushing me as scum. Once Kairal figured out he had to drop me as a scumread, the culted scumread had to go too.

And I might be being buddied out of my shorts, but I'm less convinced about culted being scum.

[massive]

Outside BV I think AJ and Dierfire are my best townreads. Not super interested in lynching culted or IamI really either. I'm wondering how many scumslips we're going to let Naomi skate by with.

I haven't changed much from here. I'm still trying to figure out Flubber's explosion and how to read it.

[massive]

Clearly you shouldn't have been so worried about me not explaining my votes.

[massive]

massive has played incredibly scummily for days- so guess who has the power role! The one person who can't be scum. My one confirmed ally is the guy who's voting me because I dared to question his blank voting day 1.

See, this right here. You either are not reading my posts or are purposefully throwing shade my way, even in posts that say I AM TOWN. I do not care about you asking for vote reasons and to claim I am voting you over it is preposterous. I have given numerous reasons I think you are scum. You boiling it down to me being petty is just one more log on the fire.

[massive]

I still feel our best chance is in {culted, AJ, Dier.....maybe outside shot of Flubber}

The only of those 3 who have voted Flubber, AJ D3.

This fits my red read of IaI so nicely.

How exactly does this fit you scumread of IAI?

[massive]

IAMI

: Did you understand that? Because ... I did not.

Naomi

: Unless you're saying "I can now scumread IAI based on associatives with unflipped players" in which case I totally understand what you are saying.

[massive]

Naomi's answer. Maybe it was too much red / read but I didn't understand what she was saying, or how it proved that her reads there were consistent. But you seemed to.

[massive]

I've never said I wouldn't move from you, Kairal. You just keep giving me reasons to stay put.

[massive]

My current thoughts:

Kairal pushing his VCA, even after being told it's probably non-indicative, I can't decide what that is.

Secondly as suspicious as everything you've done this last few pages is the fact is that the VCA implicates flubber more strongly than it implicates you.

Ok the two things I'm getting from my VCA are one of Naomi and Flubber must be scum.

The VCA doesn't indicate anything of the sort. In fact, a good scum team would make sure that all of their players are in rotation on wagons, to ensure exactly this sort of thing doesn't happen. And it STILL doesn't work around the fact that, if we even begin to trust that this VCA is exposing some sort of scummy behavior, that the rest of us would have to review it and deduce that Kairal himself is the one most likely to be scum, based on Kairal's own parameters.

So why continue to push Flubber here based solely on the VCA, and why push AJ based solely on his perceived defense of Flubber?

And maybe more importantly, why not push Naomi, who is supposedly equally as scummy due to the VCA as Flubber?

I'll unvote but somebody needs to explain this. We have 1 day 5 hours 25 minutes as of this post, if the votecount from Sunday is to be believed.

unvote

[massive]

"I wouldn't do this as scum" is like the worst defense ever, btw.

[massive]

All right, not the WORST ever, but again it relies on us to trust you, when clearly enough of us don't. So can you please answer:

So why continue to push Flubber here based solely on the VCA, and why push AJ based solely on his perceived defense of Flubber?

[massive]

Because this:

What we can assume is that on every wagon (or major position in the case of the cop argument) at least one scum will disagree with the other two.

You're going to be able to put up as an argument for any group of people. Heck, me, Grey, and MDS were this over the first two days. That's not enough to call us a scumteam.

[massive]

Massive, where are you at besides Kairal?

Man, I don't even know. If I put my Kairal read into question then too much else falls off.

I still earnestly believe one of { Kairal, Flubber } is scum based on 1.07.

Naomi will drive me insane before I get anywhere near comfortable with her being one alignment or the other.

If Kairal is town, I could be completely pocketed by culted.

It seems like it's Kairal-Naomi-IAMI vs Flubber-AJ-Culted and I'm 100% it's not as easy as that.

Where are you at? For sake of the deadline, who's your compromise lynch?

[massive]

I am way more likely to vote Naomi than Flubber. I am still not 100% sold on "not Kairal" though.

[massive]

The problem is that she has obvious buds. Maybe you are trying to downplay this but I posted it today : Kairal - Naomi - IAMI. I didn't come up with that, that's simply the other team. You can find at least two people who would push this team.

So what's your read on I Am Innocent?

[massive]

IAMI voted culted in 1423.

[massive]

It doesn't sway me at all, and here's why. IO's reads are from an entire day ago. BV will probably get to the vote count and realize that three scum aren't sitting on you all by themselves.

[massive]

Yes I agree that Flubber is probably a better bet- incidentally he's obviously given up. He's barely posted today choosing instead to allow culted and AJ to be his white knights. Please place your vote. if we get Flubber to 4 I think massive might move his.

So my activity dropped starting last Wednesday due to a head injury (If the mod allows I'll post. It's not horrible but gore is subjective), and around the time I got around to getting back here massive had claimed. I think it's reasonable to feel lost and discouraged when you've been wrong the entire game.

I'll admit I skim a lot of Aj's longer posts but I've myself in his scum list a couple times already.

VOTE: Kairal

I mean I'm a little disturbed that nothing about this rings out at you (Sorry for the head injury Flubber. Get well soon). His entire case on me is sheeping AJ- posts which he admits he didn't even fully read.

Well, for one, nothing in the two paragraphs in that post have anything to do with voting you. He's saying he's seen himself in AJ's scum list, he's just missing a verb.

[massive]

And that's correct, 1492 is really AJ's last complete scumlist post, and lists Flubber as a possible scum.

[massive]

I'm probably ok with AJ. My notes are at the office so I'm probably not going to vote until the AM.

[massive]

Naomi listing me as a scumread probably means this is town Naomi. As inexplicable as Naomi is, I can't imagine scum-Naomi being on the wrong side of the cop claim.

[massive]

Oh Now you say something -_- I been talking about my red read and disbeliving of the cop claim since like 5 pages ago. but you only change your tune now. what gives?

The very real likelihood is that I have no idea what you're saying or where your reads are most of the time.

I also felt that this quote in response to Kairal read like an attempt at deflection:

I just still don't understand like my initial push was just trying to get you to expound on your thoughts- I don't wanna play mafia in a world where that's scummy. Or acceptable to not have to explain why you think things are scummy ya know?

This one is interesting. Did he say anything like this when we were having all those numerous conversations about not explaining votes?

I wish that I had entered when Shadow did.. this slot is such an uphill battle -_- Like.. I've done everything I can to stop this slot stigma but its so hard. at this point in time.. I've posted the second most out of all players.. yet i'm still being punished the bad an weird choices CK and shadow made.. There should be enough content for you guys to use without citing CK and shadow.. Sigh.. oh well.. tomorrows another day.

Yeah, like you calling CK's townslip fake. We really should go back to that. You're definitely generating enough content for us not to rely on the other contributors to your slot.

Oh look you even quoted it for me on this page, thanks.

[massive]

I do kinda want to reread culted real fast but I know we're running up on it. I'm here through the deadline though.

[massive]

It seems like it's Kairal-Naomi-IAMI vs Flubber-AJ-Culted and I'm 100% it's not as easy as that.

It's funny, re-reading culted makes me think culted-Naomi would be the pair. Culted tries to question Cloudkicker about his 9-die "slip" but never really follows up on it, and then doesn't interact with the slot until Naomi needs a little coaching.

[massive]

Things I want in the thread for tomorrow:

Kairal - AJ might be a thing (289-293)

Still believe one of { Flubber, Kairal } is scum based on 1.07.

culted and dierfire don't go together - 275

---

VCA should be interesting tomorrow.

[massive]

There's a lot that happens between the 900s and when AJ flips on Kairal. I'm not saying I don't disagree, but I don't think ruling it out makes sense at this point. I know when I was reading along, the read change seemed like it progressed naturally.

(Granted, I may have some confbias because of Kairal.)

[massive]

So why would a team with scum Kairal kill BV before you?

There are still people who don't necessarily believe my claim. I think either way you look at me, BV was definitely confirmed. Could Kairal say "I think I can try and push massive today, Naomi will bite, we only need a couple more"? Maybe. But I think ultimately it was going to be BV one night, me the other, and ultimately it doesn't matter because I don't get another investigate until N4. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I think I could WIFOM up some alternate answers.

[massive]

So you guys need to sell the town that this:

5 (LYNCH) - Aj The Epic: Kairal, BlackVoid, I Am Innocent, Naomi-Tan, Dierfire

was all town. I personally find it highly unlikely.

[massive]

Sure, but that wagon at its height was me (town), AJ (scum), Flubber, culted. If you think one scum is on AJ then that means one scum left on Kairal. And it also means that you think Kairal is town. So is IAMI scum?

[massive]

AJ tries to start the wagon on Shadowstep (now Naomi) in 1014, another point in town-Naomi's favor. It's not a counterwagon, it's right at the beginning of D3, no one else has really voted up to that point.

Now put that in context with this:

Other than that, I'm thinking it's Shadow, Flubber, and one of Massive|MDS.

Scum have a habit of putting a scumbuddy into their scumlists, which would point to Flubber. Prior to this, AJ doesn't interact directly with Flubber much, but does namedrop him in a lot of spots as a scumread without really providing a reason and using him in a lot of arguments why other people are scum.

I'm still going through AJ's ISO but I'm likely to push Flubber here.

[massive]

If I am alive tomorrow you can happily try and lynch me.

[massive]

As I state in my post this will be my last post before the deadline so I cannot change my vote after this. I am aware at this point that I basically have control over who gets lynched. By making it clear I cannot change my vote I take control of the lynch and force people reading me as town to vote with me. You'll see that BV basically states this in his next post.

Now if AJ and I are scum and Flubber is town- why do I choose Aj here? It would be much better for scum to remain unflipped. If however all 3 of us are scum then you lose nothing by helping me kill Flubber today anyway.

So this has a lot of issues but the biggest one is: You didn't have any control over who gets lynched, since at this point it was equally likely that YOU YOURSELF would be lynched. And this is the real problem that's been overarching throughout this game is that the narrative you push as fact has some pretty gaping holes, but you want to derive action plans from them and expect us to read them as fact.

With you being the actual likely lynch, why vote AJ over Flubber if you're partners? To give him a town rub if you flip scum. But that's an easy one.

[massive]

I think it's more likely than the wagon on you being all three scum together. But evidently that's what YOU think happened.

[massive]

Somehow though you get: Kairal was instrumental in getting scum lynched therefore he must be scum.

Where did I say you were instrumental in getting scum lynched?

[massive]

Clearly I need to go back and re-read yesterday because I don't remember you making a case on him, just him fighting with you over your vote count thing. Probably not a bad idea even without looking for instrumentality.

(btw it's bullshit like that that drives me nuts and kills any town read I have of you)

[massive]

Yeah that won't actually do anything.

It is, however, tricky to rock a rhyme that's right on time.

[massive]

Kairal, I definitely think you should continue playing.