Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Ultimate Despair]

VOTE: doomfeathers

[Ultimate Despair]

^
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Look forward to playing with you all! That doomfeather vote has my approval.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?

Hey, everyone. I'm doomfeathers and I'm here to remind you that as a member of the town, I don't know anything about the way scum operates in this setup and therefore need to ask a question to everyone so you all know how ignorant of the mafia inner mechanisms I am.

Scum ping for the LAMIST.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

UD – why are you signing posts when you are supposed to be a hidden hydra? I mean if you specifically aren’t outing your heads you should be specifically treated as if you are a single player.

It's so we can be told apart. For instance if I believe that so-and-so is scum and Mukuro believes someone else is scum, you can go and say "Junko, what makes you disagree with your hydra head?" Especially because we might not always agree on reads!

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

taking doomfeathers confusion about game mechanics at face value.
seems an unnecessary scum gambit. so he's provisional town.

I don't see this? It's not a gambit, he loses nothing if he goes through with it, and it might get him townread by people like you. Why do you feel it's unecessary?

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

It could clog up the thread if done right. I read an article about that.

I don't buy that you actually thought it would clog up the thread.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

It's just you overly analysing things to try and look town, look that you are scumhunting. You can find scum that early. But posting this big explanations of why this is scum and why this is town so early makes me think you are just trying to look like the strong analytic town member, instead of being it.

What characteristics does a strong analytic town member have that Magna doesn't though - I mean, do you think that an actual analysis-freak would NOT post those big explanations?

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

I misread some stuff earlier, ignore that post I made on ultimate completely as I hadn't seen that he was pointing out Doom's behaviour. If anything I'd call that ever so slightly town, what I said earlier is wrong.

...so what did you mistakenly think I was trying to say?

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Time to scum hunt on the Sesq wagon.

@doom:

Sesq has posted five times, but has neither generated content nor voted seriously. She seems to be coasting. Friend Computer has done the same.

Inactive player is more scummy than all the other players you were analyzing? Is this really the strongest vote you could come up with at that time?

@mozamis:

It could be scum using the non day 1 start as an excuse to jump on the doom wagon.

This is a patently made up reason. I think Sesq's intentions were clear. You don't really believe this, do you?

VOTE: mozamis

also: why is doom town rather than NAI?


- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Hawk or Mozamis (of whom has contributed very little, may I add.)

Why would you think this

The wagon hop onto me (with Hawk), them mutually townreading eachother, and overall him not contributing much makes it clear who my vote is going with.

Scum hardly ever hop onto wagons together and then mutually townread each other.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Town are lucca, Revan and Hawk.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

@Hawk: Why is Sesq and Mozamis impossible to be scum together?

Revan does not give the tiniest of fucks about who thinks what about him, and he pushes his own agenda. Not in the ostentatious "look at how uncaring I am way", nor in the sinister "I have an agenda with a team" way. He has a solo agenda and he cares more about it than about the opinions of others.

[Ultimate Despair]

- Junko for the above.

[Ultimate Despair]

Cool. While you're at it

I misread some stuff earlier, ignore that post I made on ultimate completely as I hadn't seen that he was pointing out Doom's behaviour. If anything I'd call that ever so slightly town, what I said earlier is wrong.

...so what did you mistakenly think I was trying to say?
- Junko

We still want an answer on this
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

It could also indicate a more experienced team trying to disturb the flow of the game

I'm curious what you mean here. The "screwup" explanation seems straightforwardly plausible; what kind of experienced team action do you think would fit or even be sensible in this situation? Like, Hawk got shot, and other than resetting the vote counts (just a mechanical thing anyway since people can just revote), how did it actually disturb the flow of the game?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

wguerts post 39 is town. thinking about the game,wanting to discuss the game, actively engaged. All the things scum tend to avoid.

This post concerns me. Your take seems to boil down to "he's doing stuff, therefore town" which is a pretty surface-level treatment of what looks like a pretty null post that any somewhat competent scum player could pretty easily make.

I'm even more concerned given that there was a pretty substantive point made against the post, by Magna at 59, that you either missed or chose to not address.

Now that I've drawn your attention to both Magna's point and the general "posting a bunch of words that aren't entirely fluff doesn't make someone town" argument, why did you think that 39 was in particular town? Do you think Magna's points are illegitimate or incorrect?

[Ultimate Despair]

Honestly, too tired to post and analyse right now.

Will post by the morning.

By now, the Hawk kill seems random. There was not anything about his kill that would make anyone townier or scummier. I think that maybe we were going on the right track, and so, they killed Hawk to reset the lynches and try to put paranoia on us.

But why someone who had a relatively high amount of heat?

My gut-read of you just grows stronger. Near irresistible.

Do you mean "why NOT someone who had a relatively high amount of heat"? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. Nor do I understand what was actually wrong with the supposition that we were on the right track and that the point of the kill was to mess with us somehow?

Personally, I think that "we were on the right track so scum kinda panicked" makes more sense than "this was a well-thought out plan to magically get town distracted", but the more important idea that it reinforces the notion that our reads were generally correct (regardless of the level of careful thought that went into the shot) seems pretty reasonable to me, and I don't understand why this is a scum point in your mind for lucca, so I'd like you lay out your reasoning more clearly so i can get it.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

doom's page 8 is probtown fwiw

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I'm a bit concerned that scum didn't choose to shoot a more veteran player like MOI or WG, but as long as the "screwup" explanation continues to be plausible, i think that's an issue for a later time
-M

PS It's also possible that scum is doing some weird WIFOM thing where they're shooting Hawk just to further implicate the suspects on the board, but that frankly seems pointless, since there was always decent odds that the wagons as they existed were gonna go through. Which to me just further suggests "screwup".

[Ultimate Despair]

which is a pretty surface-level treatment

it's also ockhams razor. may not suffice for the whole game, but for day one, early reads, it's not a bad way to start P.O.E.

Hey cool. Now do you want to discuss the issue of Magna disagreeing with your take and his reasons, or are you just gonna respond to the part of my post you wanted to respond to?

Also, were you aware of magna's point when you made your 91 in the first place or had you missed it?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I feel like mozamis's 68 read is scum KNOWING it wasn't a gambit. Mozamis is definitely in my lynch pool for today, but I still want some content before voting.

Generically I would tend to agree with this one, but I'm a bit hesitant just because it's possible that this was more in response to doom being a slot that attracted votes (i.e. if it had simply come out of nowhere, I'd be more inclined to think it just made it a villager spew in the world where Mozami flips scum). I cautiously agree that doom gets town points given a red flip from mozami, but I don't think it's hard clearing.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

why did you think that 39 was in particular town? Do you think Magna's points are illegitimate or incorrect?

god, dont get so pedantic. wgerts is so, so town. if you have ANY experience of this game at all, you know he is.

Hey cool, now you've shown awareness of the points being raised and have dismissed them as my being pedantic.

Because 39? Not an obvtown post. wgeurts may well be town, but that post wasn't a solid reason for it, and I'm concerned about the fact that you concluded that it was solid cause to townread him.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Personally, I think that "we were on the right track so scum kinda panicked" makes more sense than "this was a well-thought out plan to magically get town distracted"

completely agree, lets press on!

Thoughts on FC vs sesq? Generically I would consider it highly likely that at least one of them is scum, but why do you think sesq in particular over FC?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Actually I'll go even further. Generically, I would consider it fairly likely that one of the following is true

1) FC or Sesq was the scum dayvig and panicked
2) FC and Sesq were both scum and they both (or perhaps their whole team) collectively panicked

I think that Hawk was a pretty bizarre shot if this was some kind of well thought out, intentional scum strategy. I think that it's exceptionally strange to waste one of two valuable kill shots on a relative newbie who has made only 15 posts, at a time when day 1 was nowhere close to being over (scum get only two free kills, and it is highly likely that at some point during the game, at least one townie will emerge as someone that the scum REALLY want dead but can't easily get mislynched, and there is a pretty decent list of people here who could plausibly slip into that role eventually). The most logical explanation is, rather than this being a wise move, that this was a panicked and ill-thought out reaction to the game state.

Not sure whether that makes me want to wagon Sesq or FC, but I'm somewhat skeptical that I'd want to wagon elsewhere.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Why would I want to kill someone I could make a scumread out of?

Well, you were being wagoned and he wasn't, for starters. I don't think it'd be a GOOD reason to shoot him, but i could certainly see it being A reason for you to shoot him.

Who do you think had the most kill motive on Hawk then, and why?

[Ultimate Despair]

I don't think we should analyze the DKs, it's just a waste of time.

This is an action that we KNOW came from scum, why should we not be analyzing it? Do you think it's scummy of people to be talking about it, or just non-productive?

Also, since you think it's a non-productive activity, what exactly should we be doing instead then?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Fine, you guys continue trying to solve the mystery. I just think it's really easy for scum to send town down the wrong trail here if we analyze too deeply.

I continue to not understand this. How would NK (or day kill in this case) analysis be especially prone to "send town down the wrong trail" compared to any other form of scum-hunting/game-solving?

Like, lets say that the scum team is able to manipulate the day kill discussion in order to secure a mislynch on day 1. How is that different than scum manipulating the day 1 discussion without a day kill in order to secure a mislynch? Is the day kill discussion MORE prone to lead us down the wrong trail? Is the day kill discussion somehow a form of discussion where we are less able to identify and pursue potential manipulations and lies?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

It's non-productive. I never analyze NKs or DKs, they are just a bunch of WIFOM. We should just continue scumhunting.

Also, are you new to mafia? You just joined the site, so I'm curious if this means you've played a fair amount elsewhere, or if you're an alt of an existing player here, or something else.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

If we don't analyze the DK, we won't be set on the wrong track. If scum is trying to influence town to mislynch, it's up to town to ignore the influence, and analyze each player. That's where I stand on this.

You're basically just stating that analyzing the DK will send us on the wrong track without saying why you think that it will. Since the fairly obvious conclusion from looking at the DK is to suspect Sesq and/or FC, the implication would be that you have at least a decent town-read on one or both of them, or that you have solid suspects outside of that pair.

However, I don't see anything in your ISO that suggests a town read on either of those two, and your strongest suspects are apparently doom and mozami, and mozami is pursuing Sesq (a DK suspect), while doom is pursuing FC (the other DK suspect) as well as mozami.

So while this MAY hold up as a consistent pattern of thought (your top two suspects are talking about the DK), what in particular makes you think that one or the other of them is actually trying to manipulate the conversation based on the DK to drive a mislynch?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Anything might lead to a town lynch. How is DK analysis in particular more likely to lead to a town lynch?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Explain how? Just because of his refusal to bow to the expectation put on him or something else? I find the scum explanation of simply not being able to answer it (and backing out of the substantive part of the debate) plausible, with a "well I'm just doing it my way" note tacked on as an attempt to look townie/stubborn. Overall it seems null to me, with town and scum explanations pretty reasonable. Why do you think it's obvtown?

[Ultimate Despair]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Looks like a contradiction to me, and you look like you may be backing up scum to me. Then again, Revan looked like he was trying to distract town, and his stopping of it feels kinda town, and then IDK

I guess Mozamis could still be scum and Revan town, and I'm going with that. VOTE: Mozamis until he starts being productive and/or less scummy.

What is the contradiction? And how is Mozami "backing up"? His 241 expressed irritation at Revan without containing suspicion/scum read, and his 238 expressly indicated a town read there. So as a potential town process, it actually looks highly consistent.

What am i missing here?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Hawk can you explain your vote on Sesq more in-depth? Thanks.

Derp clear denied.

[Ultimate Despair]

...

Regarding the Daykill – while I’m not going to spend inordinate amounts of time in this post discussing it I think the fact that it was used so early does indicate that scum in general (and perhaps the Daykiller in specific) was under pressure. While Hawk didn’t look inherently scummy he certainly didn’t look unlynchable lock Town that early. So the odds that it was some combination of Sesq / Friend Computer as scum is pretty strong in my mind.

Honestly, what makes the most sense to me as to why scum would choose to kill Hawk of all people is if it was a clumsy attempt to deflect from FC onto Sesq. Not clearing on Sesq (he could be a goon), but if we're going to specifically try and target the dayvig, I think FC makes more conceptual sense than Sesq as the scum PR here.

VOTE: Friend Computer

In any case, Lucca wasn't the killer unless kronos purposely waited to reveal the kill, since kronos posted a vote count since Lucca was last online.

You do know it is general site procedure for Mods with hidden daykills to allow scum to “queue up” the kill to a later time based on any number of criteria, correct?

I have no idea why doom would know this. His whole approach there seems consistent with the idea that the timing is important information; do you have reason to think he's faking it?

I'm a bit concerned that scum didn't choose to shoot a more veteran player like MOI or WG, but as long as the "screwup" explanation continues to be plausible, i think that's an issue for a later time
-M

My question to you M is the following – given you’ve gone out of your way to hide your heads why don’t you perceive that you would be a target on what is a weak Burden of Proficiency basis? Also why don’t you include Having or Moz in your list given that they are clearly vets as well?

It's certainly plausible that we'd have been a target, although obviously there's no way for scum to know who we are or how good they might think we are. I'm also just generally not going to be especially inclined to make a "why am I not dead yet" type post, since having any kind of gamestate-based paranoia about your own slot is just silly. As far the other two, so far havingfitz hasn't really done anything, and mozami has gotten some suspicion, so in a "any veteran player at all who MIGHT be expected to soak up a daykill" sense, sure, you can make a case there, but as a "where would I be shooting as scum right now" issue, they probably wouldn't be especially catching my eye (actually you can make a case for shooting fitz right there as a zero info kill if you think he's someone to be especially feared and you want him silenced before he can impact the game at all, but I'm guessing that it's not a particularly standard scum approach there).

PS we do have a hydra PT (I set it up and gave my partner and karnos access), and so far there's been relatively little hydra dissonance in thread (we have some disagreement on revan but haven't made it a priority to hash it out either in PT or in thread yet), so until/unless dissonance becomes an in-thread problem, I'm not especially concerned with the possibility.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Also @Junko – why were you disagreeing directly with Sesq’s reasoning for scum reading Mozamis and still voting Mozamis as “scum on the Sesq wagon”?

At that time I thought mozamis was scum but not for the same reasons sesq had expressed

[Ultimate Despair]

Unless you're implying nobody townreads me, save for myself of course. Even then I'm starting to think I may have misread my Role PM on accident.

Your attempt to clear yourself through repeated self deprecation has been denied.

[Ultimate Despair]

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Hey cool, now you've shown awareness of the points being raised and have dismissed them as my being pedantic.

Because 39? Not an obvtown post. wgeurts may well be town, but that post wasn't a solid reason for it, and I'm concerned about the fact that you concluded that it was solid cause to townread him.

-M

Mozamis did you think you could get away with ignoring this?

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Why would FC or Sesq try and kill Hawk so early in the day when they still have plenty of time to shift the pressure off of themselves without wasting a DK?

The kill on Hawk makes no sense from a logical PoV - hence it must be due to some instinctive response or an emotional reaction. Panic from scum getting wagoned early seems likely here.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

State of my reads atm:

I agree with Mukuro that Sesq or FC is likely the daykiller and we should be lynching in there. My townread on Revan has vanished and I think there is a chance he is goon. Mozamis is very likely goon as well.

VOTE: Sesq

I chose Sesq over FC here because I have a stronger read on her. Particularly dislike the "hehe, I'm worthless/an asshole" bit. I don't buy MOI's stuff about caught for wrong reasons but I do buy the stuff where she makes a big townwall as wagon increased. I think thats more likely to be indicative of daykiller panic than FC's lurking/voting mod.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

If you're scum, then self-voting / hammering makes a fair amount of sense, but if you're town you should fight it. If 348 is AtE it's not working, but if you're actually town you should figure out who makes the most sense as scum and push there rather than just give up.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

this man's play is scummy as shit

talk to me about what in particular you're seeing.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

There's at least 1 scum in {havingfitz, Sesq, Superhans}

why is there at least one scum in this group, and why is hans in particular the most vote-worthy?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Because 39? Not an obvtown post.

i think its because i thought that WAS a really fucking town post. and he eother looked really town before, or just after.
whatever. the guy couldnt be more town.

Explain to me why this is Mozamis as town genuinely townreading wgeurts rather than Mozamis as scum handing out a townread in order to get cred & look like stubborn town who has a strong read they won't let go off.

Because I think mozamis as town here would give reasons, and you haven't given any

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Well, if anyone at this point it's VOTE: Revan, this man's play is scummy as shit. I might construct something tomorrow, but I realize that even twitching my finger at this point is a scumtell.

no, you doing scummy shit is scumtells.

you're trying to build up this image of yourself as a suffering martyr who has given up on all hope and is being scumread by everyone for the slightest things because they made some fucked up comments earlier

stop building up that image

[Ultimate Despair]

I feel like there's decent pressure on everyone else, but superhans is doing pretty well for himself right now,

and I'm going to change that

.

And this will happen when? So far you have a solitary vote on a wagon going nowhere. If you actually care about getting him lynched you should be doing something to get him lynched, not just dumping out a vote parked well out of the way of where the action is.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

wguerts post 39 is town. thinking about the game,wanting to discuss the game, actively engaged. All the things scum tend to avoid.

I'd already given my reasons. In a way, does it matter? As scum, i would say he is town cos i know it, and as town I would say he looks town because HE LOOKS SO FUCKING TOWN. The main gist of his posting early on was that he was clearly trying to get the game moving. Scum dont try and do that. ANd he was handing out unprovoked,strong reads. That's the GIST of what he was doing.
And that's what I'm good at. Giving the over view, seeing the wood from the trees.
You are obviously a "details" man, getting to grips with the minutae. Cool. We have different personalities, different playstyles. Dont fall into the trap of thinking I play like you as town. You stick with the point by point stuff. I 'll keep giving out the big, general stuff.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand the caffeine's still going lol

Your attempt to skirt the issue has been denied. I don't care how big picture you are being, my other head already showed you why the reasons you are using to read wgeurts as town are not real reasons. You keep asserting that it's "so fucking town" and "scum wouldn't do that" but scum do it all the time if they're even remotely competent.

And what concerns me is that you're not bothering to re-evaluate. A town member who's been told that their town read needs to be reevaluated will evaluate that townread because town members are afraid of derpclearing scum. The confidence in your post stems from certain knowledge about wgeurt's alignment.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Moving back to him as the whole “Sesq is defeated” posting she has been making timed with Friend Computer’s conspicuous absence paints a picture to me of a Scum Goon trying to take the bullet for the Scum Daykiller to make sure they don’t miss out on their second Daykill.

I think you have a good point here. I will bring this up in hydra chat and make sure we're on the same page.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

I don't agree with this theory that the DK was a reaction to panic. I agree that there was definite intent behind the Hawk kill as the shots were valuable, but it is early D1, and it seems like an unbelievably audacious gambit that the death of Hawk would somehow throw the kill off of the FC wagon. Why would FC or Sesq try and kill Hawk so early in the day when they still have plenty of time to shift the pressure off of themselves without wasting a DK?

Well, if it didn't make much sense for them to do it, and it didn't make much sense for anyone else to do it, then "panic" seems like an appropriate explanation.

Come to think of it, we may want to try to lynch the day goon today so he can't use his second kill. Do we have any indicators of who might be not only scum but also the killer?

not necessarily in a scummy sense, but that lack of thread awareness, given that it's been a frequent point of discussion, is kind of annoying

But let's not lynch until near end of day; we want to catch as many as possible. It'd probably be good to avoid L-1 until then, too, to avoid wayward hammerers, especially since Sesq is offering to self-hammer

Just in case this is just you not really understanding, which since you're relatively new I'll just guess to be the case, taking too much time is anti-town as well as a stalled game state induces apathy and laziness. Take all the time you need, not all the time you have.

UD 210
Why do you think this? With all his explanation only "cleared" one player, me. Doom's content could be easily faked.

His entire content on page 8 is consistent with "hey I think this timing thing is super important and now I'm gonna go nuts on investigating it". It could THEORETICALLY be faked, but I'll solidly disagree that it could EASILY be faked. Thus "probtown"

UD 211
This post got me thinking.
There is a possibility that experienced scum did a "random" kill on purpose, to implicate the possibility of a newbie scumteam, that would be wrong?

Clearly there's that possibility. But as I noted, what's the damn point? If FC and Sesq were just scummy lynchbait town, then it doesn't seem super likely that they'd easily bail themselves out, and even if somehow they did, then it's hardly unreasonable to think that Hawk could have been someone to eventually go under the gun instead. To take a massively sub-optimal kill shot (both in terms of the target and in terms of the timing) as part of a wacky WIFOM scheme just to frame people who were probably gonna go down anyway seems like an instance of scum out-thinking themselves more than anything else.
In a world in which FC/Sesq are both town, there's a very narrow band of reasons why shooting in that spot makes much of any sense, and in few of those worlds would scum just decide that Hawk is who they want to spend one of their limited kill shots on. Like, put yourself in the shoes of theoretical scum where FC/Sesq are both town. Would YOU take that shot at that point in time? Would you consider it to be a reasonably sensible shot to take?

Don't like UD trying to put things on Revan's mouth. I don't know why they're saying that the only conclusion to make is that Revan finds either Friend or Sesq town. But, also, there wouldn't be any scum goal to do this.

Read 261 more carefully. Revan's argument was that Dk analysis sends us down the wrong track. Since the track we were on from it was to suspect FC/Sesq, I then pushed him on his reasoning, since if we were on the wrong track, then it meant that he town-read at least one of them (otherwise we were not in fact on the wrong track). That's why I asked the question. Not sure at all what words I put in his mouth either, whether in that post or any other.

Hey, UD, could you clarify which head thinks that Revan is scummy? It would be easier to read your posts.

It's M (Mukuro). The one who's been pushing on him. Though I'm more on the nullscum side than obvscum on him at this point. I think other hydra head is in the ballpark of my opinion at this point as well (see 338) but she can answer for herself if you think it's important.

Hey, UD, could you clarify which head thinks that Revan is scummy? It would be easier to read your posts.
Yeah, Revan is town. He is brutally honest, and is not concerned with others view on him.

Lucca, why did you make this read, which reads basically like a sheep of Junko's 154, while having previously suggesting that such a conclusion was necessarily meta-dependent on our end?

@UD 351, can you tell me aswell what you are seeing? I don't like your interactions with Sesq.

I'm back-burnering a meaningful Revan read for a bit, in part because I want to see some flip associations and potentially get into VCA and the like (of which there is precisely zero point to engaging in on day 1), and see if I can shed some light on the slot that way. I'm basically null-scum on him, but both hydra heads have bounced around on that read a bit (Junko more than I tbh).
What about our interactions with Sesq do you not like? I looked around your ISO and didn't really see what you were getting at there.

"the thing that makes me pause about Sesq lynch is that there is zero resistance."
Shouldn't that make everyone pause?
Seriously.
There is zero resistance.

In a world where scum is FC/Sesq/x, then I feel reasonably confident that buddy #3 would be EXTREMELY concerned about sticking his neck out to save one or both of you. so "lack of resistance" is a relatively poor argument. Moreover, if it turns out that just one of you is scum, then there is in fact plausible resistance, it's just much subtler in terms of preference for one scumspect over another. And that is ignoring the other push on Revan, which has emerged as at least a theoretical extra counter-wagon.

My problem with UD is that their thought progression doesn't seem to be natural. Maybe it's the Hydra, but I don't think so.
I didn't like their scumread-townread-scumread on Revan, specially when they go asking around other people about their scumread on Revan, but themselves don't give their opinion. I think it's scummy, and that he's testing the waters.
Their interaction with Sesq is weird as well, and on all of their interactions seems that UD is preparing for an unvote on him.
Also, a lot of his posts are just playstyle/theory arguments, and there is not a lot of content.

Well, we've been somewhat transparently open to lynching either FC or Sesq, so in that sense we've certainly been "preparing" for a potential move. I also have literally no idea what you're talking about when you say

a lot of his posts are just playstyle/theory arguments, and there is not a lot of content

. I don't know if you're confusing "reading the game state and known scum actions" with "theory", or if there's some other entirely different point you're trying to make.
It's also odd that you're talking about our thought process being unnatural without being able to cite specific examples of why you think that to be the case. Since this seems to be a point you care about, please illustrate and explain it.

-M

PS @mod: VC please

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD how are you reading Wguert?

Both me and Mukuto have consistently bad gut feelings on him. But neither of us trust our gut that much, and we didn't see anything scummy when we looked at his ISO, so I'm willing to say that we townread him for now.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

You saying “Please explain your Town read on wgeuts” and saying Moz’s reasoning is bad isn’t really very compelling Day 1 as a reason for him to totally re-assess.

Do you not Town read Wguets?

It's a compelling reason. If their reasoning has been proven wrong, they should want to re-assess their read, because the carpet just got yanked out from under them, so to speak.

I do townread Wgeurts. But I also think that mozamis handing out this kind of read and being absurdly stubborn about it is frivolous and could be scum trying to buddy or look good if wgeurts flips town.

[Ultimate Despair]

There is a possibility that experienced scum did a "random" kill on purpose, to implicate the possibility of a newbie scumteam, that would be wrong?

I doubt it. Two kills a game means the kills are valuable and need to be hoarded. The scum team can't afford to waste one on some flimsy WIFOM nonsense. This looks like a panic kill and I'm treating it as such.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD, what is your current read on Mozamis?

Scumlean.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Hey, UD, could you clarify which head thinks that Revan is scummy? It would be easier to read your posts.

Previously it was just Mukuro. I think I'm starting to swing around to his line of thinking given some of the horrible posts Revan has made.

[Ultimate Despair]

VOTE: Friend Computer

Think this is L-1

Superhans is scummy, anyone trying to divert us off the Sesq/FC wagons with WIFOM nonsense is scummy.

[Ultimate Despair]

Sesq was an awful shot what the heck.

Anyway, we've got 3 town deaths so it's time to reread the game again and draw associative tells. I'm a little behind due to exams but I'll get a good ammount in this weekend.

I'm a bit torn on this. WG had pushed against the Sesq wagon, including making an explicit town read there, but hadn't really put the kind of major effort into eliminating it that might have actually convinced FC to not shoot Sesq in the event that he flipped town. I guess it's probably ok in the context of him having actually expressed a TR there, even if it's the sort of thing that didn't relaly need to be said or do much good.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

My Superhans vote was because I'm not townreading him.

The Sesq flip does strengthen my read on him, because it narrows down my lynchpool.

That's a pretty weak reason to be voting someone though, barring a strong set of confident town reads. Do you in fact have such a set of townreads? I don't think i've seen you discussing your town reads in such a way as to justify essentially POE-voting elsewhere.

didnt really like Fitz's opening post.
he seemed a bit oo knowledgeable "Not many scum on that lynch, i dont think".
This is not a "we must lynch fitz now" vote.
It IS a "he MIGHT be scum, lets get some pressure on him vote".

vote HAVINGFITZ

ps sorry sesq

What is the point of a pressure vote if you're admitting to it being pressure as you vote?

They say that Mozamis is a scumlean for him. They say that Superhans is scummy. He votes for Friend. They says that anyone distracting people from the Sesq wagon is scummy. I believe they think that Revan is scummy too.

That alone are five scumreads. Potentially more when they are talking about the wagon.

This, together with the fact that UD haven't responded to my case on them, especially when they are such an active player, makes me think that UD is scum.

Why do you think it's scum-indicative to have a bunch of scumreads?

What part of your case in particular did you think we weren't responding to? I don't think we'd responded to 476 but had responded to earlier items. wrt 476 in partiuclar, I'm a bit surprised that you had at that point stated that associations made us scum if sesq was scum (due to us "wanting off the wagon"), but now that sesq flipped town, we're still scum for... reasons? Like you now say you felt like we knew that FC/Sesq were both flipping town, but don't support that beyond "UD has a bunch of scumreads", which is pretty much a non sequitur to the theory that somehow we knew FC/Sesq were flipping town.

I guess I'd like a clearer theory from you about what exactly your'e seeing from us that makes us scummy at this point, because I'm having trouble following your thought process.

superhans/revan team makes sense for panic dk day 1?

Not sure. FC/Sesq both being town screws with my gmae state read, trying to wrap my head around how it makes sense given those flips.

I guess you'll can, if you think I'd bus Super as scumz

Why wouldn't you bus Super as scum? The day 1 environment would have been fantastic for distancing, since FC/Sesq were pretty much always the likeliest wagons to go through after the dayvig, which means that you can potentially get a lot of value on a push on a buddy at that point. What exactly about that disqualifies such a pairing, especially with daychat to coordinate and discuss?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Prodge. Haven't caught up yet, but me and Mukuro both think Revan is a promising lead.

[Ultimate Despair]

@Doom,
Sesq didn't look all too much like scum in my opinion, but he's dead so it's irrelevant now anyways. I had him as someone we should have kept alive until later, if anyone I would have shot one of the wildcards such as Revan to avoid awkward scenarios later.

Not game relevant but I think Sesq is a she

[Ultimate Despair]

@mozami: I'll more or less +1 to Hans' 561/2. It seems like you're asking a rhetorical "why don't scum quick wagon" bit, but it's not LYLO/MYLO, so why WOULD scum quick wagon here (in whatever configuration of revan/hans alignment)? Is there some obvious answer I'm missing? Because it seems kind of stupid for a theoretical scum team to just up and out themselves just for the sake of hurrying along a pre-LYLO wagon when there isn't any particularly obvious need to do so.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Looking at Revan/mozamis

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

...
Depends on the situation. Having 5 scumreads alone wouldn't be suspicious. Having 5 scumreads before hammering a town player is leaving your options open for the next day.

I did a post explaining my continued scumread on you. Disregarding them for "reasons" is scummy.

I explained it on 476 and on my vote post. I thought you guys were a possible partner for Sesq. Reading the catchup/hammer posts, I started to think you were scummy regardless of the flip. Your attitudde disregarding my posts only make it stronger.

Your stated reasons were:
- we'd disregarded your case (which wasn't really true)
- we had a bunch of scum reads (which wasn't really indicative)

So if that was the extent of your case, it was objectively poor, and if there was more to it you hadn't been particularly clear about why. So yes, being dismissive of your case seemed pretty reasonably appropriate

You'd also raised the point about us ignoring mozami's responses in 476, which seems odd given how much we've talked to/about mozami. What in particular did you think we'd missed or dismissed?

Like, overall I look at your push on us and it seems more like a read in search of reasons (especially given the strange continuation of the read when originally it was to some degree dependent on Sesq being scum) than a read that has meaningful substance behind it, and I'd like to see you put in the time to actually substantiate and demonstrate what you claim to be seeing if this is something you really feel strongly about.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

^stated reasons in 522

[Ultimate Despair]

Is there some obvious answer I'm missing? Because it seems kind of stupid for a theoretical scum team to just up and out themselves just for the sake of hurrying along a pre-LYLO wagon when there isn't any particularly obvious need to do so.

My main point was that the fact that his wagon is going nowhere seems like he might be scum. Scum obviously prefer not to bus if possible. If he was town, scum could just get a quick lynch. Then with an early DK tomorrow they would be in a really strong position ( I havent done the maths) and they could hope to WIFOM the mislycnh. Plus they would be so dominant all it would take is one mis vote from town?

OF COURSE I COULD BE WRONG. But with the (more important point) that Hans looks pretty scummy, it seemed relevant.

It's certainly true that scum is in a better position given a mislynch, but outing themselves over it seems like a bizarre strategy, since trading one mislynch today for say one scum lynch tomorrow seems like a win for town and a loss for scum, since they don't have a night kill (one of the nice things about a nightless game)

I'm also not sure about why a particular wagon going nowhere is indicative. No wagons are really going anywhere, in part because the game has slid into inactivity (and I"ll admit to being an offender in taht regard, all the more so since I'll probably be out until the weekend after this), so I guess I don't see why, other than the fact that you have a scum read, that a wagon going nowhere is itself meaningful.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I still think that Hans is scum. But his posting on D2 has been stronger. This, together with the Sesq and Friend flips that made me question my scumreads, makes me want to go with my gut today. And my gut says UD.

What sort of BS logic is that? "My reasoning is bad, so I'll take the course of action with as little reasoning as possible"?

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

Hard to coordinate with partner and avoid dissonance since we're both busy, but we both want to get Revan. I'm fine with doing it while he's inactive.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

@lucca:

1)
disregard: pay no attention to; ignore
(we didn't do this, and I think that's fairly obvious)

dismiss: treat as unworthy of serious consideration.
(I admittedly did this)

Saying that I didn't disregard your case (which I didn't), while also saying that I dismissed your case (which I did) is not a contradiction, much less an actual lie.

2) The substance was that we had a bunch of scumreads. The narrative was that somehow having a bunch of scumreads equated to keeping our options open. The actual fact being discussed was the number of scumreads we had, i.e. that was the actual basis of your suspicion (if there was more to the "you're keeping your options open" bit then you've done a terrible job communicating it). You constructed a scum narrative for our behavior while seemingly choosing to not critically engage with the possibility that having a bunch of scum reads was an honest town process.
The factual basis of your point there, though, was in fact the number of scum reads. Which simply isn't indicative. Slapping scum narrative onto a non-indicative incident does not magically turn it into scummy behavior, regardless of whether or not you think it does. So my saying that you have scum read us in substantial part due to behavior that is not indicative is a completely valid point.

3) If I think your push on us is a push in search of reasons, the question is whether you actually believe it or not. It is entirely possible that you are simply being bad. I don't especially feel like voting someone just for being bad without having a meaningful basis for believing that it's scummy instead of just poor reasoning.

4) The explanation for why I "moved on" from the page 10 stuff should be fairly obvious. Look at 243 and subsequent posts. We moved on to a different topic of conversation, reacting to an action that we knew came from scum.
What exactly were you expecting here? I had good reason to be focused more on FC/Sesq, discussed my reasoning, and I don't recall you or anyone else being upset by the focus on those two back when they were still alive.
I'm also curious why you feel like our treatment of Mozami was different than, say, our treatment of Revan, who I spent some time questioning on page 11 and also "moved on" from. Like, who here that we've interacted with substantially have we treated in a way that is substantially different from how we've treated mozami in a way that stands out? Preferably with quotes/links to demonstrate what you're claiming to see.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

...

@UD

– you need to answer this right away …

1. Why did you call Moz a scum lean Day 1?
2. Why is the same head “looking at Moz” as if it didn’t already have a read from Day 1?

And I do not want to see any explanation that “That was my other head”. You are one slot. You get treated as one slot and attempting to foist off hydra dissonance to avoid pointed questions isn’t going to fly.

--

Junko didn't address this, so I guess I will.

I don't even get where you're coming from on point 1. We had a bunch of posts addressing and discussing Moz on day 1; are you asking us to restate our reasoning? Did you miss it? Like, what exactly are you getting at here, because it would be fairly difficult to miss our thoughts on Moz from day 1, and we have under 100 posts, so it would be hard to miss given the ISO feature. If you have questions about our read from day 1 ask them, but it's not my job to rehash previous events for your convenience.

For point #2 I'm guessing you meant

Looking at Revan/mozamis
- Junko

That's a pretty clear "here's my current suspects" post. I fail to see the contradiction at all, so again if you have a question please ask it more clearly.

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD if Moz flips:
Scum, who is the partner?
Town, who is the partner?

Why do you care about this? I'll admit that I occasionally do pre-flip associations when I'm in the mood, but w'ere in a game without a night kill, which means that there's probably LESS utility from this than usual. Like, say moz is lynched and flips scum and then we get day-vigged before we can talk about associations. While there would be less of a legacy on our end, there would also be the benefit that scum is out of kill shots, which strikes me as a perfectly fine outcome.

TLDR: I'm not especially in the mood to discuss pre-flip associations, although I suppose that's potentially subject to change if I get in the mood.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I have a little time on my hands this weekend.

SH is looking better, UD is looking worse. Moz is town in my gut.

How in YOUR opinion is SH looking better and UD looking worse? I get that seems to have been board consensus around that time, but why do YOU think that was the case?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Anyway, I'll try and do an actual re-read tomorrow, since I should have the time then. If there are questions I've missed, I'll try and address them then.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I wanna know. Don't buy your point that it being nightless invidates this question, I think that pre flips can generate pretty insightful content.

What insightful content does preflips generate in a nightless game?

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

VOTE: Mozamis

Not a discussed vote with my hydra partner ftr, but im sure mukuro will agree given 701 and 702.

@lucca: you didn't seem to understand muk's point, so let me just rephrase what they meant.

You say that we have a bunch of scumreads, which means that we are scum trying not to commit to any wagon. That's privileging the hypothesis - ie. you are going and looking at behaviors with the intention of interpreting it as a scummy act. If you look at it clearly, a player with lots of scum reads but strong reasoning for each one is NAI. The scumminess comes from when the reasoning is bad, because thst is scum making up excuses to scumread slots rather than town players legitimately scumreading a slot.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

@Moz: Could you talk about why your read on us changed from a town lean (around 527), to the slot you most want lynched? In 702, you stated that the board should focus on fitz and us, but it's super unclear what was driving it at that time, and even subsequent to that the only thing of any substance against us you noted was essentially an OMGUS in 716, and presumably the bit about having nine posts before giving reads in your voting post? Like, before we voted you the "nine posts" bit (which strikes me as the epitome of NAI) was the strongest thing you had? Nothing else in what we'd done BEFORE we voted you made us sufficiently strong scum reads that the board shoudl only focus on us and fitz?

I'll be back tonight (for real this time), will talk more then.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

PS that "nine posts" thing, if about us, wasn't even accurate (not that it would have been AI even if it was accurate). Junko's LAMIST post about doomfeathers, the fourth post of the game from us, was an actual read.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Vote Count 1.8

**Friend Computer**

(6/6)

- wgeurts, magnaofillusion, havingfitz, doomfeathers, sesq, ultimate despair

Superhans

(2/6)

- revan, lucca261

Sesq

(1/6)

- mozamis

Revan

(1/6)

- superhans

A lynch has occurred!

Please stand by.

So basic VCA and situational analysis (FC/Sesq were probably doomed, no other wagons had much momentum other than a brief spurt towards revan) means that virtually always you're gonna have at least one, and probably two, scum in the off voters (theoretically you might even have three, but that seems unlikely IMO). The interesting question given the vote counts is whether hans/revan might actually be w/w with a nice distancing setup.

Kinda wanna mull that over for a bit.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I don't even get where you're coming from on point 1. We had a bunch of posts addressing and discussing Moz on day 1; are you asking us to restate our reasoning? Did you miss it? Like, what exactly are you getting at here, because it would be fairly difficult to miss our thoughts on Moz from day 1, and we have under 100 posts, so it would be hard to miss given the ISO feature. If you have questions about our read from day 1 ask them, but it's not my job to rehash previous events for your convenience.

Color me unimpressed with this response. The whole point of the exercise is to highlight what I see as fake-reads from your slot. Your ISO shows some softball questions tossed towards Moz Day 1 that supposedly pointed to a scum read. Yet today you’ve conspicuously avoided voting for the slot up until just now. And I don’t see anything in your Day 2 ISO that says “I revoked that read” (in fact you in this response squash that notion) or significant scum-hunting elsewhere (I discount your back and forth with Lucca as that is mostly driven by disproving his read on you not commenting on his alignment).

Here's the thing, though: your actual questions
1) Just asked us to restate what we'd already said
2) Misread junko's point - you seemingly interpreted that as if she was reading them without a prior opinion, as opposed to the more natural "these are my two scum reads" interpretation

So if your intention was to highlight fake reads, you did a really poor job of it, asking a "give me the info you already gave me" question, and asking a question that was seemingly based on a misinterpretation of a post. If you thought we were making fake reads, then things like "why weren't you voting", or highlighting specific posts or points that you thought were odd, would have been helpful.

It came across as busywork, and I don't think you ought to be surprised that I wasn't much interested in indulging what looked like lazy questions on your end, regardless of your tacked on "you need to answer this right away" bit

As for the bit about not voting, we were conspicuously not voting anyone at all. Do you think it's scummy to be a non-voter in a situation where we were also relatively low activity for the first week or so of the day phase, and there weren't any wagons that had grown really large? That strikes me as a pretty null bit; why do you think it's indicative?

Not a discussed vote with my hydra partner ftr, but im sure mukuro will agree given 701 and 702.

What do you think specifically is scummy about those posts?
--

I really should let junko answer for herself, but here goes

UNVOTE

HE SEEMD A BIT BLAND BUT HIS LAST FEW POSTS HAVE BEEN "SCUM HUNTERY" SO HE'S BACK TO NULL

I don't think I hate this one as much as Junko, but I'll note she made a LAMIST note about it in hydra thread

leaving p.oe
wguerts, rev, UD and fitz as possible scum
of these i wgeurts i guess is the weakest scum read, since he looked very fucking town earlier on. But as someone else mentioned, his total lack of content ment that that his towniness has evaporated.
Still, rev ud and fitz i guess makes more sense.
dan, i thought rev was looking more town so thats confusing. Still, i could vote him.
But we should focus on fitz and UD, and work out the last scummer later.

This one is worse. It's a "POE" that doesn't seem especially strong (as a simple example, the very post before, he bumped Lucca to "null", which strikes me as a poor basis of using POE to create scum reads, if you're to the point where you're dumping out null reads). It's also super hedgy on revan, while expressing an interest in focusing on fitz/us (not clear why). I'll let junko talk about if she saw more than that, but that's where my take is.

Yet aside from being occasionally scum-read there is no inclination to wagon him

Lol...so what are you saying about his lack of wagonning? That it suggests he could be scum?

Pretty much. The point being that he's such an easy target that scum would have gone after him by now were he town.

@UD if Moz flips:
Scum, who is the partner?
Town, who is the partner?

Why do you care about this? I'll admit that I occasionally do pre-flip associations when I'm in the mood, but w'ere in a game without a night kill, which means that there's probably LESS utility from this than usual. Like, say moz is lynched and flips scum and then we get day-vigged before we can talk about associations. While there would be less of a legacy on our end, there would also be the benefit that scum is out of kill shots, which strikes me as a perfectly fine outcome.
TLDR: I'm not especially in the mood to discuss pre-flip associations, although I suppose that's potentially subject to change if I get in the mood.
-M

I wanna know. Don't buy your point that it being nightless invidates this question, I think that pre flips can generate pretty insightful content.

Well, in the event that Moz flips town, I doin't know that there's anyone in particular that screams out scum due to that flip.

In the event that Moz flips scum, I'd probably want to re-read interactions and voting patterns a bit more carefully (among other things, seeing how the wagon on him actually develops as hammer gets closer might be interesting and useful). Probably Revan becomes the most obvious possibility, given the possibility of getting in on that bus early after SH vote there, but I odn't know that I feel that stronglya bout it (it's also plausibly just an opportunistic hop after the wagon on us has pretty flagrantly stalled).

That's pretty hedgy, but I don't know that I have a better answer for it rn.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@mod: given that this is a nightless game, what exactly happens if we don't reach majority by day end? Just goes to "day 3" or is there an actual consequence?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I've done a lot actually, just haven't put it down yet. I have a lot of stuff in my head.

FWIW, this is basically a classic lynchbait post. I guess I'm a bit concerned that he may be intentionally playing into it after Magna called out the lynchbait possibility less than 24 hours prior though *shrugs*

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Vote Count 2.7

Mozamis

(3):

Superhans

, MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz

Ultimate Despair

(3): lucca261,

mozamis

, revan, mozamis

Superhans

(1):

Revan

,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

Revan

(1): superhans,

mozamis

Not Voting

(1): Nahdia_Superfan,

superhans

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Nahdia_Superfan replaces wgeurts.

Deadline has been extended.

(expired on 2017-02-08 09:00:01) until deadline.

Wow MOI is on a wagon I should vote there.

VOTE: Mozamis

VOTE: Moz

K switching to Moz, agree that her reads seem fake, and Rev doesn't seem likely today.

Moz is on L1 btw.

K nm she is L0

Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Especially given that a hammer screwup had already happened this game, and had been discussed?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Rejoice for scum has been lynched. MOI senpai shall not lead us astray~

Let's hope anyway

[Ultimate Despair]

@mod: could you try and actually make hammer announcements explicitly instead of baking them into earlier pre-hammer postings of yours? That makes it kind of hard to follow
-M

That was an error. It's already fixed. -karnos

[Ultimate Despair]

Rejoice for scum has been lynched. MOI senpai shall not lead us astray~

Let's hope anyway

ARE YOU SUGGESTING MOI SENPAI WOULD LEAD US WRONG YOU B-BAKA!

Well mod just posted that Moz was town...

[Ultimate Despair]

And you think that SUPERHANS is a SCUMBAKA because of his quickhammer!?

The idea occurs (the idea also occurs that the two of you are scum together given the combined quickhammer). Given that we're now in MYLO, I'll probably spend some time re-reading before pushing any kind of vote.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I was catching up and got a PM saying Day 3 has started. I honestly have no idea who got lynched.

Hi everyone I wanna be lynchbait too

I fixed your typos

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

UD can I get a readslist?

Eventually, but I want to re-evaluate given flip.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

UD and Doom are two of the scum, I think.

Why?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I was catching up and got a PM saying Day 3 has started. I honestly have no idea who got lynched.

Hi everyone I wanna be lynchbait too

I fixed your typos

-M

What a low content smear post.

How so? It was a transparently terrible lynchbaity post.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I think that's the entirety of our mozami read related posts from D1. If anyone wants to ask about specifics, fine, but "well what did you say" was always a time-wasting question. If it was simply sloppy or poor communication on Magna's part, fine, but it shouldn't be my job to dredge up this stuff.

Spoiler:

taking doomfeathers confusion about game mechanics at face value.
seems an unnecessary scum gambit. so he's provisional town.

I don't see this? It's not a gambit, he loses nothing if he goes through with it, and it might get him townread by people like you. Why do you feel it's unecessary?

- Junko

Time to scum hunt on the Sesq wagon.

@doom:

Sesq has posted five times, but has neither generated content nor voted seriously. She seems to be coasting. Friend Computer has done the same.

Inactive player is more scummy than all the other players you were analyzing? Is this really the strongest vote you could come up with at that time?

@mozamis:

It could be scum using the non day 1 start as an excuse to jump on the doom wagon.

This is a patently made up reason. I think Sesq's intentions were clear. You don't really believe this, do you?

VOTE: mozamis

also: why is doom town rather than NAI?


- Junko

wguerts post 39 is town. thinking about the game,wanting to discuss the game, actively engaged. All the things scum tend to avoid.

This post concerns me. Your take seems to boil down to "he's doing stuff, therefore town" which is a pretty surface-level treatment of what looks like a pretty null post that any somewhat competent scum player could pretty easily make.

I'm even more concerned given that there was a pretty substantive point made against the post, by Magna at 59, that you either missed or chose to not address.

Now that I've drawn your attention to both Magna's point and the general "posting a bunch of words that aren't entirely fluff doesn't make someone town" argument, why did you think that 39 was in particular town? Do you think Magna's points are illegitimate or incorrect?

which is a pretty surface-level treatment

it's also ockhams razor. may not suffice for the whole game, but for day one, early reads, it's not a bad way to start P.O.E.

Hey cool. Now do you want to discuss the issue of Magna disagreeing with your take and his reasons, or are you just gonna respond to the part of my post you wanted to respond to?

Also, were you aware of magna's point when you made your 91 in the first place or had you missed it?

-M

I feel like mozamis's 68 read is scum KNOWING it wasn't a gambit. Mozamis is definitely in my lynch pool for today, but I still want some content before voting.

Generically I would tend to agree with this one, but I'm a bit hesitant just because it's possible that this was more in response to doom being a slot that attracted votes (i.e. if it had simply come out of nowhere, I'd be more inclined to think it just made it a villager spew in the world where Mozami flips scum). I cautiously agree that doom gets town points given a red flip from mozami, but I don't think it's hard clearing.

-M

why did you think that 39 was in particular town? Do you think Magna's points are illegitimate or incorrect?

god, dont get so pedantic. wgerts is so, so town. if you have ANY experience of this game at all, you know he is.

Hey cool, now you've shown awareness of the points being raised and have dismissed them as my being pedantic.

Because 39? Not an obvtown post. wgeurts may well be town, but that post wasn't a solid reason for it, and I'm concerned about the fact that you concluded that it was solid cause to townread him.

-M

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Explain how? Just because of his refusal to bow to the expectation put on him or something else? I find the scum explanation of simply not being able to answer it (and backing out of the substantive part of the debate) plausible, with a "well I'm just doing it my way" note tacked on as an attempt to look townie/stubborn. Overall it seems null to me, with town and scum explanations pretty reasonable. Why do you think it's obvtown?

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Looks like a contradiction to me, and you look like you may be backing up scum to me. Then again, Revan looked like he was trying to distract town, and his stopping of it feels kinda town, and then IDK

I guess Mozamis could still be scum and Revan town, and I'm going with that. VOTE: Mozamis until he starts being productive and/or less scummy.

What is the contradiction? And how is Mozami "backing up"? His 241 expressed irritation at Revan without containing suspicion/scum read, and his 238 expressly indicated a town read there. So as a potential town process, it actually looks highly consistent.

What am i missing here?

-M

Also @Junko – why were you disagreeing directly with Sesq’s reasoning for scum reading Mozamis and still voting Mozamis as “scum on the Sesq wagon”?

At that time I thought mozamis was scum but not for the same reasons sesq had expressed

Hey cool, now you've shown awareness of the points being raised and have dismissed them as my being pedantic.

Because 39? Not an obvtown post. wgeurts may well be town, but that post wasn't a solid reason for it, and I'm concerned about the fact that you concluded that it was solid cause to townread him.

-M

Mozamis did you think you could get away with ignoring this?

- Junko

State of my reads atm:

I agree with Mukuro that Sesq or FC is likely the daykiller and we should be lynching in there. My townread on Revan has vanished and I think there is a chance he is goon. Mozamis is very likely goon as well.

VOTE: Sesq

I chose Sesq over FC here because I have a stronger read on her. Particularly dislike the "hehe, I'm worthless/an asshole" bit. I don't buy MOI's stuff about caught for wrong reasons but I do buy the stuff where she makes a big townwall as wagon increased. I think thats more likely to be indicative of daykiller panic than FC's lurking/voting mod.

- Junko

Because 39? Not an obvtown post.

i think its because i thought that WAS a really fucking town post. and he eother looked really town before, or just after.
whatever. the guy couldnt be more town.

Explain to me why this is Mozamis as town genuinely townreading wgeurts rather than Mozamis as scum handing out a townread in order to get cred & look like stubborn town who has a strong read they won't let go off.

Because I think mozamis as town here would give reasons, and you haven't given any

- Junko

wguerts post 39 is town. thinking about the game,wanting to discuss the game, actively engaged. All the things scum tend to avoid.

I'd already given my reasons. In a way, does it matter? As scum, i would say he is town cos i know it, and as town I would say he looks town because HE LOOKS SO FUCKING TOWN. The main gist of his posting early on was that he was clearly trying to get the game moving. Scum dont try and do that. ANd he was handing out unprovoked,strong reads. That's the GIST of what he was doing.
And that's what I'm good at. Giving the over view, seeing the wood from the trees.
You are obviously a "details" man, getting to grips with the minutae. Cool. We have different personalities, different playstyles. Dont fall into the trap of thinking I play like you as town. You stick with the point by point stuff. I 'll keep giving out the big, general stuff.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand the caffeine's still going lol

Your attempt to skirt the issue has been denied. I don't care how big picture you are being, my other head already showed you why the reasons you are using to read wgeurts as town are not real reasons. You keep asserting that it's "so fucking town" and "scum wouldn't do that" but scum do it all the time if they're even remotely competent.

And what concerns me is that you're not bothering to re-evaluate. A town member who's been told that their town read needs to be reevaluated will evaluate that townread because town members are afraid of derpclearing scum. The confidence in your post stems from certain knowledge about wgeurt's alignment.

- Junko

You saying “Please explain your Town read on wgeuts” and saying Moz’s reasoning is bad isn’t really very compelling Day 1 as a reason for him to totally re-assess.

Do you not Town read Wguets?

It's a compelling reason. If their reasoning has been proven wrong, they should want to re-assess their read, because the carpet just got yanked out from under them, so to speak.

I do townread Wgeurts. But I also think that mozamis handing out this kind of read and being absurdly stubborn about it is frivolous and could be scum trying to buddy or look good if wgeurts flips town.

@UD, what is your current read on Mozamis?

Scumlean.

- Junko

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD: One question: What's your intent in posting that?

I assume you mean 850? I expressed disapproval of your bad posting while not expressing an opinion (since I wasn't sure) on whether it was an actual lynchbaity post or merely your attempt to look like lynchbait (since that's been discussed as a concept). I don't know that it had all that much in the way of intent tbh.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

UD why did you scumread FC? I noticed that you offered no explanation D1 when I was reading your ISO.

I thought that FC made a lot of sense as a dayvig given the plausibility of a "panic" move there. I also thought that his near-total total lack of content while being wagoned made snese as frozen scum or anti-spew. I don't recall off the top of my head what else there was. I suppose I might have thought his last couple posts were giving up scum too i guess.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

877 was because you're now the second person who's asked me "well what were you actually saying about moz" so rather than just waste time bitching about people wasting my time I'd just take the couple of minutes it took to dig up the posts and post them. Perhaps now I can answer substantive questions about it instead of fluff questions.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

btw, it's 8 alive and 5 to lynch, so 2 votes is L-3, not 1 vote
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Do you have a problem with restating what you've said for the sake of convenience, then?

^Were you going for something else then? Becuase that read to me like you wanted me to go back and dig up the info? Or did you mean instead of quoting it, just somehow rephrasing it or something?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD: I was asking whether you had a problem with restating your reads when asked. I wasn't asking. Being touchy about one's reads seemed scummy to me.

I'm not touchy about my reads, I'm touchy about people wasting my time with busywork questions. As a demonstration of this, try to explain a hypothetical where magna's "repost your read" bit would have somehow exposed scum!ud as having had fake reads. If you can't get there, then it was a waste of my time.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@doom:

@UD: Whatever. I still think that's a lot of fuss to avoid a short summary.

So the actual questions asked were

1. Why did you call Moz a scum lean Day 1?
2. Why is the same head “looking at Moz” as if it didn’t already have a read from Day 1?

Both were shitty questions, for different reasons. The first question isn't substantive, it just asks for an answer that fairly cursory research could have provided (why I ought to be expected to do this instead of Magna, when Magna is the one indicating that he thinks the issue important, is beyond me). Then, after I posted without answering those questions, he followed up with a vote and the following:

...

@UD

– you need to answer this right away …

1. Why did you call Moz a scum lean Day 1?
2. Why is the same head “looking at Moz” as if it didn’t already have a read from Day 1?

And I do not want to see any explanation that “That was my other head”. You are one slot. You get treated as one slot and attempting to foist off hydra dissonance to avoid pointed questions isn’t going to fly.

--

Then comes my response and his follow-up

In post 690, Ultimate Despair wrote:
I don't even get where you're coming from on point 1. We had a bunch of posts addressing and discussing Moz on day 1; are you asking us to restate our reasoning? Did you miss it? Like, what exactly are you getting at here, because it would be fairly difficult to miss our thoughts on Moz from day 1, and we have under 100 posts, so it would be hard to miss given the ISO feature. If you have questions about our read from day 1 ask them, but it's not my job to rehash previous events for your convenience.

Color me unimpressed with this response. The whole point of the exercise is to highlight what I see as fake-reads from your slot. Your ISO shows some softball questions tossed towards Moz Day 1 that supposedly pointed to a scum read. Yet today you’ve conspicuously avoided voting for the slot up until just now. And I don’t see anything in your Day 2 ISO that says “I revoked that read” (in fact you in this response squash that notion) or significant scum-hunting elsewhere (I discount your back and forth with Lucca as that is mostly driven by disproving his read on you not commenting on his alignment).

How in the world I was supposed to know that the point of the exercise was to "highlight fake reads" as opposed to "engage in transparent busywork" is beyond me. Since you seem to disagree, I guess I'd like you to address exactly where in the back and forth described above my perspective or responses were unreasonable (especially since I'd explicitly asked him what the point of the exercise was, since it wasn't at all clear to me, and I think it wouldn't be especially clear to someone else either).

-M

PS FWIW the other part of my 690 was

For point #2 I'm guessing you meant

Looking at Revan/mozamis
- Junko

That's a pretty clear "here's my current suspects" post. I fail to see the contradiction at all, so again if you have a question please ask it more clearly.

which I also thought was fine

[Ultimate Despair]

So since I’m going back over the whole game with a fine tooth comb I’m going to bring up something I saw earlier and let go in my pursuit of Moz …

@Mozamis if Revan flips.scum who is his partner?

I had forgotten about this but his posting post Moz flip brought it back to mind.

MOI + Revan scum team, is this implausible?

Or UD + Revan

The first person who points out what I am seeing in all three of these posts gets a free Internet Cookie.

Well I like cookies so...
he's asking for an opinion on pre-flop associatives without offering any substantiated opinions of his own?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

UD...you casting shade on Hans for his hammer seems a bit ironic. I think his vote and oops looked pretty genuine. What I do find a bit weird is you giving him a hard time abou the hammer before we even knew the flip.

Prior to knowledge that moz was town....you should be more focused on let's see what the flip is and not suspecting someone who is voting the same player as you. I.e. who's like minded.

Your little pre-flip exchange just seems a bit knowing to me.

This is objectively wrong by the way. "Oh it's twilight let's wait and sit on our hands to see what the flip is" is utterly useless behavior. His hammer looked suss, and I pushed him on it. It is BETTER to make that kind of push in an environment where it's unknown what the flip would be; see who seems confident that it was still scum, see who might know it's town and potentially out themselves in the discussion. Of course our mod decided to quick post the flip and end that possibility (which is kind of annoying btw), but that's a productive environment for that line of enquiry.

Ps what about the hammer seemed especially genuine to you? And what about my enquiry, other than the fact of its existence, seemed knowing?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD, 890: can you point to me the two quotes where people said that?

wait. can this L-3 stuff be a scumslip that points that Doom and Hans are scum together? if they were planning on killing someone today, it would be a L-3. the way they were talking about that it seemed like they were almost already assuming it. I think it's plausible.

@fitz, 897: that's one of the strongest posts on the game. I hadn't noticed that about UD and it's very scummy for UD to do it. second time that UD seems to know the flips before they happen. Fitz is town. He's looking for stuff from a town perspective. Not voting Fitz today.

1) people just love asking me to do their work for them it seems.

619 and the end of 871

2) see my rebuttal in my last post. That's not a strong post, it's a dumb post. The scum motivation for me to draw attention to myself my pushing Hans there before the flip is at most wifom, while the town motivation is obvious. "Ooh it seems 'knowing' " is transparently lazy, and the kind of point that should be thrown out wholesale at least nine times out of ten.

3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

No matter who we scumread, we seem to agree that scum are somewhere in (Superhans, Revan, UD). Why don't we lynch one of these more scumread players? That way, we're more likely to hit scum, so we'll have more breathing room while going after others.

You do realize that it's MYLO right? One mislynch = game over? This seems like a bizarrely relaxed perspective given the game state. Do you think it's SH/Revan/us exactly? Are you somehow not concerned about picking wrong in that group? If the latter, please explain why you're not concerned about what could potentially be a game-ending decision.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

...

This is objectively wrong by the way. "Oh it's twilight let's wait and sit on our hands to see what the flip is" is utterly useless behavior. His hammer looked suss, and I pushed him on it. It is BETTER to make that kind of push in an environment where it's unknown what the flip would be; see who seems confident that it was still scum, see who might know it's town and potentially out themselves in the discussion. Of course our mod decided to quick post the flip and end that possibility (which is kind of annoying btw), but that's a productive environment for that line of enquiry.
Ps what about the hammer seemed especially genuine to you? And what about my enquiry, other than the fact of its existence, seemed knowing?

My god if you are Town this is terrible, terrible posting. Hans’s hammer is presented exactly as yours was Day 1 – “Oops I thought that was an L-1 vote”. The cognitive dissonance flowing from your slot is bad if you are suggesting that hammer was sketchy (and possibly scum) and yours came from Town.
Furthermore the only player who “outed” that they might know Moz was flipping Town was you. So floating “I was looking for scum” netted yourself as the only viable suspect. Floating that you were obv-Town for doing so is just plain bad.

Is this a joke or what?

1)

Floating that you were obv-Town for doing so is just plain bad.

Citations DESPERATELY needed for that nonsense. Fitz suggested in 897 (what I responded to) that I somehow slipped knowledge that Moz was town, and that the reason I slipped knowledge was that I'd pushed hans in twilight (i.e. not anything where the nature of my posting or questioning seemed knowing, but rather the mere EXISTENCE of my questioning suggested that I knew the flip in advance). That is utterly garbage reasoning, and the post that you quoted explained why it was bullshit.

You are also ignoring the POTENTIAL for said questioning to have outed knowledge of a flip. That no one outed any such knowledge is not meaningful, because the mod shut down that possibility by quick-flipping (fwiw, as a mod I have an unofficial policy of keeping twilight open at least 30 minutes even if I see a hammer, because people SHOULD have some amount of time to react, and "is the mod around right now" is kind of a crappy luck element to dump into a game).

So telling me that no one outed themselves in the questioning process, and pretending that this means anything at all, is ridiculous. No one did anything at all in response to my push before the flip, so the fact that no one outed themselves in the process is not just meaningless but OBVIOUSLY meaningless.

2) What cognitive dissonance? Ignore for a second that it was my hydra partner who couldn't count (blah blah hydra dissonance as if that means anything in this context), and explain to me why one person derp-hammering AFTER ANOTHER PERSON DERP-HAMMERED AND IT WAS PUBLICLY DISCUSSED (and hans was sufficiently involved in the game that he couldn't have missed that it had been a point of discussion) is not itself worth pushing and questioning.

Hans, if town, ignored the fact that derp-hammering already happened (and the normal town process after it had been discussed would be to be more careful with voting), AND the fact that a mere two posts above his own vote, someone else dumped in a vote (and a sub who had just come in and cast a flagrantly sheeping vote at that), and basically just said "yeah fuck it I'm voting there". That is a questionable town process and should always be questioned (regardless of moz flip by the way). Giving me shit about questioning him for it is ridiculous.

3) For the record, if you want to talk about empty twilight posting

And now we wait for a flip ...

would be a solid example. "Hey, look at me, I don't know whether moz is scum and I sure hope I get a flip soon". Talk about stuff that didn't need to be said, that has no merit in advancing the game, and is lazy posting as town or LAMIST if scum.

...
Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?
-M

Especially given that a hammer screwup had already happened this game, and had been discussed?
-M

is a pair of posts that COULD come from scum pretending to scum-hunt, but is at least substantively useful since it's an actual question. Since you seem interested in looking at peoples' twilight posts, why don't you tell us what the point of posting your twilight fluff was? Are you normally that lazy in twilight?

4) Now that I've further explained my process, please justify

My god if you are Town this is terrible, terrible posting.

since that's very clearly not the case

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I'm not seeing the reasoning here. Could you explain it? I've read a lot on the wiki, and I've never come across anything like that.

Tone reading. I'll reference
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8468554
as an example, specifically the section

...
Cron was working super hard at developing his reads and he had the proper emotional investment in what he was doing. I don't feel like pulling up his posts to cite specific examples, so let's just talk again about the Trundle thing.

He soulreads a guy as a wolf based on one post and has four reasons for it, and he's super proud of himself and patting himself on the back for it. Wolves aren't trying that hard to develop quick reads and they tend to struggle to come up with that level of insight and they aren't good at getting the subtle emotions right. And his whole day was full of things like that. Cron has played several wolf games on this site and his posting was bland and forgettable each time

.

…

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

In general, emotions that genuinely flow through someone's postings are likelier to come from town, because town have an honest approach to the game and that includes proper emotional investment and reactions.

That's different than AtE, most notably because I'm talking about the emotion that comes naturally in someone's posting over the course of a game, not about emotion in response to getting pressure that could reasonably just be an attempt to dodge rope.

[Ultimate Despair]

Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did.

No, I didn't. I merely acknowledged your clarification.

Sorry for not being clearer earlier.

I didn't mean for you to have to quote all your posts about mozamis.

Either that was an empty apology or you understood that it was reasonable for me to have read your post in the way that i did. I presumed the latter.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Citations DESPERATELY needed for that nonsense

Do you think just throwing insults helps you? It doesn’t …

Your post was nonsense, I acknowledged it as such. I also justified why I saw it that way. Do you think just handwaving it away as "just throwing insults" helps you? It doesn't...

The scum motivation for me to draw attention to myself my pushing Hans there before the flip is at most wifom, while the town motivation is obvious. "

Gee that wasn’t hard to find was it? Your implication and inference here is “My behavior is obvious Town because there is at best only WIFOM on why my scum motivation was”. Words have meaning and just because you didn’t string together the exact phrase “I’m obvious Town” doesn’t mean you didn’t make that claim via inference in your posting.

Actually I was pointing out that scum-reading me for it was dumb. "The town motivation is obvious" means that there very obviously was potentially town motivation. Maybe I did do it for the WIFOM as scum. Maybe there was some other benefit that hasn't been discussed or isn't obvious. You're stretching here, especially since LITERALLY IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH (that you chose to cut off for whatever reason) I was making the point that fitz's argument was dumb, NOT the point that it made me obvtown.

You are also ignoring the POTENTIAL for said questioning to have outed knowledge of a flip. That no one outed any such knowledge is not meaningful, because the mod shut down that possibility by quick-flipping (fwiw, as a mod I have an unofficial policy of keeping twilight open at least 30 minutes even if I see a hammer, because people SHOULD have some amount of time to react, and "is the mod around right now" is kind of a crappy luck element to dump into a game).

So your premise is that you’d as Town call the lynch (which you were on) into question in hopes of eliciting scum to post so as to incriminate themselves. Yet why couldn’t Town do the same? I mean – your whole premise is that you yourself are Town who specifically called the hammer into question. So why couldn’t your “tricksy trap” catch another Town player who had a Town read on Moz instead of scum? The fact that you are ignoring this possibility shows stunning cognitive dissonance.

I called the HAMMER into question. Did you see me give a "oh no moz was town oh woe is me" spiel? Did you see anything OTHER THAN my calling the hammer into question there? If so please demonstrate.

Or please demonstrate how a twilight questioning of the hammerer is only useful given a town flip. If Moz flipped scum, would questioning that hammer somehow be meaningless?

Again – the fact that the second a hammer was throw you immediately went on the offensive against the hammerer on a wagon yhou were on seems pretty damn suspect.

How? You SAY it's suspect but your reasons are bogus. It looked like a potential scum-hammer (whether or not it was on a buddy), so I went after it. I don't need to wait for the mod to tell me the flip to be useful.

2) What cognitive dissonance? Ignore for a second that it was my hydra partner who couldn't count (blah blah hydra dissonance as if that means anything in this context), and explain to me why one person derp-hammering AFTER ANOTHER PERSON DERP-HAMMERED AND IT WAS PUBLICLY DISCUSSED (and hans was sufficiently involved in the game that he couldn't have missed that it had been a point of discussion) is not itself worth pushing and questioning.

Cognitive Dissonance can be boiled down to the following – when someone’s actions contradict their own stated beliefs it is a sign they are lying. I don’t recall anyone saying that said hammer wasn’t worth discussing. Yet you are suggesting you are Town who made a mistake (or in this case trying to apply Hydra Dissonance as an excuse) but your stance is that Hans can’t be Town who made the same mistake. The Dissonance is clear – you did exactly what Hans did yet can’t apparently see any reason why it couldn’t be the same supposed Town mistake you made.

That's pretty much bullshit though. I QUESTION his hammer under the assumption that it is UNLIKELY that he as town made that mistake given that it already happened, AND that there was another vote on Moz (and a sketchy looking vote at that) immediately before his vote. Please explain where I imply, much less state, that it is somehow an impossible town process. The paragraph that you cite below is COMPLETELY consistent with the reasoning as I explain it. No assumption that it is impossible as town exists.

The whole paragraph below outlines this –

Hans, if town, ignored the fact that derp-hammering already happened (and the normal town process after it had been discussed would be to be more careful with voting), AND the fact that a mere two posts above his own vote, someone else dumped in a vote (and a sub who had just come in and cast a flagrantly sheeping vote at that), and basically just said "yeah fuck it I'm voting there". That is a questionable town process and should always be questioned (regardless of moz flip by the way). Giving me shit about questioning him for it is ridiculous.

And your “Hey, want to talk about empty twilight posting” follow-up is weak. Specifically you are saying “You were not drawing conclusions before there was more information”. Well, duh. Until the Mod flipped Moz there was no information to be had.

Again – the only person in a position to draw conclusions about the lynch itself (and Hans’s hammer) were the Mafia who know Moz was flipping Town.

Your “EMPTY TWILIGHT POSTING GRAAAAA” stance only serves to try to turn the focus away from that fact and keep yourself from being on the defensive.

That's nonsense. The only people who can draw conclusions immediately (that directly relate to the flip0 may be those who know the flip, but since there was going to be a flip, literally everyone in the game could draw conclusions from twilight postings after the flip was subsequently made public. And no one needed to know moz's flip to think that hans's hammer looked sketchy; that much was obvious regardless of moz's alignment.

And to be clear: I was not accusing you of failing to draw conclusions, I was accusing you of fluff posting. Your post was not useful to advance the game in ANY way; pretending as if my issue was simply that you failed to draw conclusions is lazy at best, dishonest at worst.

[Ultimate Despair]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

and you say you're not disregarding stuff I post. I'm curious why you need to proclaim you as town in every single post that you make. it's always: "hey, this thing I did is obv-town", "hey, this thing I did is a town tell'. I'm saying you use this tone to disregard stuff that other people post about you. It's not just on me, it's on Magna as well. every time people accuse you, you start to say that you're better then than, and that you are obvtown.

What EXACTLY am I disregarding here? I note that what you're accusing me of (arrogance) is actually town-indicative, and then ask you to demonstrate why you think it's scum-indicative. You turn it around and act as if I'm proclaiming myself obvtown (when I haven't), and ignore the QUESTION I asked you of why this behavior is scum-indicative (which you know, is ACTUALLY disregarding something the other person is saying).

1) it's just that it's curious you waited the start of D3 to answer magna "stupid" questions. you waited until they were a problem. if Magna/Doom hadn't pushed you about it, you wouldn't answer this.

I answered because there were now two people who (seemingly) wanted me to answer the question, even though it was a dumb busywork question in the first place, and so I just did it. Why do you think this is indicative?

2) again. the argument is dumb. I think he believes it. I think you're scum. He probably does as well. I'm reading him as town. I think he believes.

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it? Substantively, all you're doing here is saying "I agree with his argument, therefore I agree that he believes it". That's lazy. Presume I'm town (which obviously you don't want to do). UNDER THAT MODEL, do you think that he believes what he's saying? Why or why not?

3) that is not my point. my point is that, if you're not sure I'm town, you saying: "3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting." makes no sense. in this you assume I'm town 100%, not even considering I might be doing this for scum reasons. if you were town on this game, you wouldn't be so sure of my alignment.

Actually I think you're being bad regardless of alignment. I SUSPECT you're town and am trying to educate you in order to be less bad. I could be wrong, but until I have solid reason to think you're scum, I'm going to talk to you as if you're town. That's not even slightly indicative on me, unless you think you have some magic way to differentiate from someone who THINKS you're town and someone who KNOWS you're town (and if you are town, perhaps this game will teach you how dumb that approach is).

[Ultimate Despair]

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@magna: it seems like the example you cited is of someone who, with the unique knowledge that scum was a 2-man team, had postings that inadvertently reflected that mindset . Here, Hans is only looking for two scum, in a game where there are three. You talk about it being something you'd expect from a less experienced player; can you come up with a couple useful examples in your experience when less experienced scum have exhibited this tell?

[Ultimate Despair]

Nope. Your stance is predicated on a flip Town you should not have known. No way around that. Again repeating that my logic is bad doesn’t make it so. Sorry for you on that.

Play hypothetical: mozami flips scum. How, in that world, is my questioning nonsensical? To be clear, your logic here is apparently predicated on both of the following presumptions:

1) It is unreasonable to question that hammer given a scum flip (literally what you're claiming here)
2) It is unreasonable to instinctively react to that hammer and think the derp is likely fake and want to push on it

I don't agree with either of those presumptions, much less both.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

...

Your post was nonsense, I acknowledged it as such. I also justified why I saw it that way. Do you think just handwaving it away as "just throwing insults" helps you? It doesn't...

Yawn … I mean just repeating insults over and over doesn’t make them true. Appeal to Repitition is a logical fallacy scum use for a reason but it is easy to identify.

And just repeating that I'm wrong over and over again doesn't make yourself correct either.

Actually I was pointing out that scum-reading me for it was dumb. "The town motivation is obvious" means that there very obviously was potentially town motivation. Maybe I did do it for the WIFOM as scum. Maybe there was some other benefit that hasn't been discussed or isn't obvious. You're stretching here, especially since LITERALLY IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH (that you chose to cut off for whatever reason) I was making the point that fitz's argument was dumb, NOT the point that it made me obvtown.

But again – there really wasn’t Towm motivation. Or more correctly Town motivation that makes a lick of sense. Having’s points were not by any means off the wall. Supposed Town you should have no reason to say “Hey that was a stupid hammer must be scum motivated” since Town you should not know Moz was flipping Town. Given all you’ve said about how you were Town who Derp-hammered Day 1 there are realms of possibility where Town Hans derp hammers Moz scum there. Yet you didn’t given that a second thought and immediately went on the attack.

Except that...

Vote Count 2.7

Mozamis

(3):

Superhans

, MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz

Ultimate Despair

(3): lucca261,

mozamis

, revan, mozamis

Superhans

(1):

Revan

,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

Revan

(1): superhans,

mozamis

Not Voting

(1): Nahdia_Superfan,

superhans

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Nahdia_Superfan replaces wgeurts.

Deadline has been extended.

(expired on 2017-02-08 09:00:01) until deadline.

Wow MOI is on a wagon I should vote there.

VOTE: Mozamis

VOTE: Moz

K switching to Moz, agree that her reads seem fake, and Rev doesn't seem likely today.

Moz is on L1 btw.

K nm she is L0

Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?
-M

Especially given that a hammer screwup had already happened this game, and had been discussed?
-M

You don't need a flip to look at that and think it's sketchy and want to push on it.

can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer

Is a QUESTION, and an entirely appropriate question to ask in the wake of a derp hammer (FWIW, a question like that asked to Junko after the day 1 hammer would ALSO have been appropriate, and I fail to see why questioning Hans on this is somehow hypocritical of me).
"Explain how you missed this seemigly super obvious fact" is something that, to anyone paying attention, should have been an OBVIOUS question to ask. That's not a "well gee you're obvscum" or "you couldn't possibly have had town motivation there" that's a demand for an explanation.

I called the HAMMER into question. Did you see me give a "oh no moz was town oh woe is me" spiel? Did you see anything OTHER THAN my calling the hammer into question there? If so please demonstrate.
Or please demonstrate how a twilight questioning of the hammerer is only useful given a town flip. If Moz flipped scum, would questioning that hammer somehow be meaningless?

And now you are back-tracking. As I just said above – again you really didn’t have any reason to question the hammer before the flip as Town. Post flip? At least then you can logically scum-hunt knowing it was a hammer on Town.

And as I just explained above, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to question regardless of flip. He represented a derp that is not particularly reasonable to have had. Maybe it was an intentional townslip attempt. Maybe he wanted to get in a hammer while the getting was good. Maybe it was an actual derp. Getting an answer on his process quickly would have been helpful. Waiting for a flip in order to do anything useful would not have been helpful.
You're representing the idea that somehow ONLY given a townflip was that questioning reasonable or useful, and that's simply not true.

How? You SAY it's suspect but your reasons are bogus. It looked like a potential scum-hammer (whether or not it was on a buddy), so I went after it. I don't need to wait for the mod to tell me the flip to be useful.

Nope. Your stance is predicated on a flip Town you should not have known. No way around that. Again repeating that my logic is bad doesn’t make it so. Sorry for you on that.

Repeating that my questioning is only valid given a town flip, or that said questioning necessarily presumes a town flip, is not logic that through repetition becomes true. Sorry for you on that.

That's pretty much bullshit though. I QUESTION his hammer under the assumption that it is UNLIKELY that he as town made that mistake given that it already happened, AND that there was another vote on Moz (and a sketchy looking vote at that) immediately before his vote. Please explain where I imply, much less state, that it is somehow an impossible town process. The paragraph that you cite below is COMPLETELY consistent with the reasoning as I explain it. No assumption that it is impossible as town exists.

Nope. Your thought process that Hans was scummy before hypo-Town you could know it was a bad hammer combined with the fact that you refuse to acknowledge his “crime” is exactly the same as yours but his isn’t likely to come from Town while yours totally did means you are just playing “Nah nah nah nah nah your are stupid” games at this point.

Town!UD thinks (NOT knows) that it's a bad hammer just by looking at it because no shit it looks like a bad hammer. It's a sketchy looking hammer just on the surface of it, and I don't need karnos to tell me moz's flip in order to realize that it's a sketchy looking hammer or act on my knowledge that it's a sketchy looking hammer.

The one good thing about this exchange is that I probably can rule out you and Hans as being partners. So that’s helpful.

Well at least you've gotten one piece of accurate info from the exchange.

[Ultimate Despair]

^
-M (as if that wasn't obvious)

[Ultimate Despair]

UD's reference for the emotion tell specifically said that anger doesn't count. I'm not really seeing any emotion other than anger from them, yet they're trying to use that as evidence of townishness.

FOS Ultimate Despair

Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell.

I'm not seeing the reasoning here. Could you explain it? I've read a lot on the wiki, and I've never come across anything like that.

So literally in that discussion was explicit evidence of arrogance, which, if real, is a generally a villagery emotion. Do you not see evidence of that? Do you disagree with the assessment? It seems exceptionally strange to me that, on the heels of a discussion that you yourself participated in about an emotion other than anger, you have chosen to interpret my posts (my whole ISO? only my last couple of posts?) as having been devoid of all emotion other than anger.

Why are you missing this point?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

UD i explained why I accidentally voted and its in my ISO.

Basic AF excuse but I didn't actually realise I was quick hammering
I glanced at the VC at the top of the page and voted.

You offered an explanation, sure (not sure why you'd presume it's necessarily going to be believed). Over 15 minutes after you were asked. Why did it take you that long to offer up what easily could have been a quick one-off response?

Also

K nm she is L0

seems to be a particularly blah response to your realization that it was an accidental hammer. Do you normally offer up posts essentially devoid of emotion after you screw up? Can you point to any similar examples, either in this or other games of yours?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I guess there could well be arrogance in there as well. I don't really see that one being hard to fake as scum. I'm not seeing anything that would be.

So did you forget about the discussion about arrogance when you made your "there's only anger" bit? It's weird that you'd be explicitly involved in a discussion on the topic and then discuss it as if it hadn't even happened. Are you generally forgetful about things that you're involved in? Should I just presume this is normal behavior for you and not worry that you're simply offering up a lazy excuse for a tactical vote?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

well I thought she would flip scum, tbh.

So essentially you were so sure of Moz flipping scum that you didn't worry about a sketchy-looking sheep vote cast right before your own?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

It looks like you've been in five completed games, correct? Can you cite an example of this being faked easily or effectively?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

Also, please provide specific examples of what you consider "angry arrogance" from my posting, as opposed to "contemptuous arrogance", "regular arrogance", etc (and by specific examples I mean quotes, preferably with explanations of what you're seeing). You've represented that you've done enough work to tone-read me, this shouldn't be difficult for you to provide.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

i didnt' see the vote, i thought i made myself clear that it was an accident i immediately regretted.

Maybe. You do understand why skepticism is reasonable here correct?

also you show zero emotion after mishammering FC, you don't even apologise for it in the following post.

1) It was Junko who did it, so it's not like it's my fuckup
2) It was multiple days afterward, since the thread was locked
3) Why do you equate emotion and apologizing? And for that matter, what were your feelings and mindset after you realized that you'd accidentally hammered?

K nm she is L0

and then nothing. Did you go out and take a break? Anxiously await the flip? Wait and see what everyone else had to say?

this is effectively an impossible task, to find alternative situations to apply to this scenario. usually importing alternate game situations convulates the situation.

i don't think it is reasonable to excpect Doom to dredge through threads trying to find an example, especially, as you pointed out, he is a newer player.

I asked him to find examples of this tone from MY posting. He clearly represented that such examples exist. It should not be difficult for him to provide said examples with explanations of what he's seen from me that explicitly fits into that paradigm he described.

I also asked him to find ONE example of this being easily or effectively faked by scum. He said that it was easy for scum to do, this is either a nothing statement (because there's no evidence behind it and it's an intellectually lazy "well I think it'd be easy") or he's seen it before at least once and can cite.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Can you possibly be serious? You've posted nothing that wasn't antagonizing. Are you seriously asking me to hunt down posts so you can nitpick about whether it was anger, contempt, or arrogance? What difference could it possibly make? It's SCUMMY. DEAL WITH IT.

So you're saying you can't? I mean, you've represented that you are capable of tonally reading me, and then when asked to provide examples of what you claim to be seeing, you decide that you can't be bothered?

As far as "nitpicking" about it, congratulations, you have discovered how to play mafia. People challenge each others' assumptions, demand evidence, challenge how they're interpreting evidence, etc.

Here's how things have gone down between us from MY perspective, in terms of your last 9 posts (which for the most part have been to and/or about me):

1) Thread consensus seems to be top suspects inside (Hans, me, revan). You sheep that consensus in 942, while at the same time expressing basically zero interest in WHICH of those three is actual scum (which is super weird given that we're in MYLO)

2) I push on that and you state the obvious in 955

it's still important that we pick the right lynch.

while at the same time not especially doing anything to pick that correct lynch

3) In 958 you question my tonal tell data relating to arrogance, and dispute that you'd acknowledged that my read of your question (i.e. that you wanted me to hunt down those posts) was reasonable

4) In 965 you acknowledge that my point was in fact reasonable (unless "oops, misread" was ALSO empty)

5) In 977 you state that you failed to see any emotion from me other than anger and FOS me (you also state that I'm trying to use anger as evidence of townishness, which isn't really correct, and even if it was, would be pretty NAI, unless you think that town players can't or won't try to demonstrate that are town for reasons that THEY think are accurate even if you disagree)

6) In 980 you acknowledge that in fact there could be arrogance, and declare that this isn't hard to fake as scum (without evidence supporting this btw)

7) In 985 you declare that the only arrogance I've shown is angry arrogance. You continue declaring that this is easy to fake as scum, again without any evidence.

8) In 995 you simplify our conversation by redirecting it to the statement that I've only been antagonistic (which isn't true), and use that as an excuse to not bother providing evidence to support your assertions, especially notable given your earlier

@UD: Whatever. I still think that's a lot of fuss to avoid a short summary.

to me

9) In 996 you declare that antagonism is natural as scum, which is again not actually the case (most scum tend to be more accommodating, passive, and UTR, though obviously there are exceptions).


This is not a set of posts that inspires confidence that you are making an actual effort to figure out my alignment. Instead, it makes me believe that you are choosing to be lazy about it and (if town) just decide to believe what you WANT to believe, and (if scum) hide behind pretending to do this. Do you understand why I see things this way? Have I misinterpreted you? Have I treated your postings to/about me unfairly? If not, then maybe you should bother doing some of the legwork that would demonstrate that this is a real read of yours and not BS that you're using excuses to avoid really getting into the weeds of.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

...

Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. And that's a scum tell. And arrogance is NAI. Of course you are going to answer me by telling me how wrong I am and how good of a player are you both.

1) Because you weren't going to answer. That is clear.

2) I READ FITZ AS TOWN. THEREFORE, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MOTIVATION FOR HIM TO DON'T BELIEVE IN WHAT HE'S SAYING. See, I can use caps lock too.

3) Then stop disregarding my posts and pretending to be the saviour of Mafiascum. Go find scum. Engage with who you think is scum. Your only interactions right now are with me and Magna. You're not concerned about finding scum. You're concerned about defending yourself. If you don't think I'm town, how can you go around and try to educate me to scumhunt better? This is you displaying your knowledge of who's town again. Curse all you want, you slipped.

0) As with doomfeathers' stated tone read, you should be able to provide explicit examples if you think I have a fake arrogant tone. Please do this.

1) So I originally wasn't going to answer, and then I did answer after a second person asked me, and that makes me scum because ___?

2)

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it?

You're choosing to ignore the question I asked and instead answer a different question. I didn't ask you about your overall read of him, I asked about what you see in HIS ARGUMENT AS PRESENTED that makes you think it's sincere. This is me asking you to demonstrate your thought process. Now that I've restated my question (which was clear enough the first time btw), why don't you just answer it?

3) This is you choosing to believe that I've "slipped" knowledge of who's town instead of the very obvious possibility that I'm talking to you as if you were town because that's how I tend to talk to people. It's conceivable that this is scum hiding behind this kind of behvaior, but my gut says super derp town makes more sense.

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

town player would try to go against the case with substanced opinions. you are trying to go against the players.

again, you're treating me as conftown. am I the only one seeing this?

1) I ask you for evidence behind your opinions, you choose to focus on the attack part. Did you not care about the question or did you just decide it was easier to focus on the latter? If the second option, why is that?

2) Apparently you are the only such person (though I suspect it'll be sheeped soon enough). I've stated multiple times that I am not in fact treating you as conftown, and that in general I treat people as town unless I think they're scum. You're overlooking or actively disregarding what I've said. Why is that?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD, 975: you were voting Mozamis. so, when's he lynched, your reaction is thinking that who hammered is scum? this makes no sense.

Vote Count 2.7

Mozamis

(3):

Superhans

, MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz

Ultimate Despair

(3): lucca261,

mozamis

, revan, mozamis

Superhans

(1):

Revan

,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

Revan

(1): superhans,

mozamis

Not Voting

(1): Nahdia_Superfan,

superhans

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Nahdia_Superfan replaces wgeurts.

Deadline has been extended.

(expired on 2017-02-08 09:00:01) until deadline.

Wow MOI is on a wagon I should vote there.

VOTE: Mozamis

VOTE: Moz

K switching to Moz, agree that her reads seem fake, and Rev doesn't seem likely today.

Moz is on L1 btw.

K nm she is L0

Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?

-M

Forget the context of mozami's flip. Does this or does this not look suspicious to you? Do you NEED a flip to look at that and think it's questionable to have hammered while ignoring the vote that just happened that was both obvious and sketchy-looking? If yes, explain why. If no, explain why what I did was somehow problematic. Please also note that I QUESTIONED him about his vote. The "omg M pretended to hard-scum read Hans right as soon as that vote was made" bit is factually inaccurate and not consistent with what I did at all.

---

let's not forget UD though process here:

UD: "Hey, arrogance is a town-tell" --- "I do posts where I'm completely arrogant, appeal to emotion and demonstrate knowledge of alignment" --- "but I am arrogant, therefore I'm town" --- "why? because I'm arrogant, and arrogance is town"

At no point did I ever demonstrate knowledge of alignment, either wrt mozami or wrt you. Just becuase you say it a bunch of times does not mean it's true.

Also please demonstrate my AtE as you understand it, instead of trying to just attack me for what you claim to be seeing. A half-assed "summary" of what you read as my behavior is completely useless.

[Ultimate Despair]

---

in the middle of the UD crazyness, I don't like that Hans jumped at the discussion to defend himself, made no points, and gets out proclaiming UD as town (?) because of his bad excuse.

Hans-UD-Nahdia, anybody?

nahdia has posted nothing.

revan disappeared from the face of the earth as soon as pressure laid off him.

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

superhans is superhans.

I've done enough posts about UD.

---

safe to say my only townreads are Magna and Fitz atm. not voting Nahdia, Doom or Revan today, too.

today we should lynch between UD and Hans.

So nearly everyone is scummy, and you posit that Nahdia is part of the scum team, but you're not voting there, or for what you represent as pretty clearly scummy behavior from Doom and Revan, but instead decide that the lynch must be between UD and Hans.

That's a lot of "scummy town" that you say you're seeing. What exactly separates those out from either my or Hans slots? If you're going to basically represent that the whole board is scummy, I'm curious why you think that either I or Hans, much less both of us, stand out strongly from the others. What, other than "well I think it's UD/Hans", makes the others scummy town?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Can you possibly be serious? You've posted nothing that wasn't antagonizing. Are you seriously asking me to hunt down posts so you can nitpick about whether it was anger, contempt, or arrogance? What difference could it possibly make? It's SCUMMY. DEAL WITH IT.

So you're saying you can't? I mean, you've represented that you are capable of tonally reading me, and then when asked to provide examples of what you claim to be seeing, you decide that you can't be bothered?

No, I'm demonstrating. That's how well I do off the top of my head without warming up.

You sure seemed to take it as antagonistic

.

Did I? I'm pretty sure I took it as evidence that your stated read didn't have substance behind it, and therefore was potentially insincere. Why do you think I interpreted it as you being antagonistic? Or did you mean that I was being antagonistic to you there?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

0) I never said you are faking arrogance. This is again you putting things on my mouth. I said that your tone is of scum trying to get through the pressure.

"Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. "
The implication is that I was faking an arrogant tone. This is not me putting words in your mouth, this is me responding to what you said. I acknowledge that I simply could have misread you there, but I certainly don't see how it was unreasonable to do so.

1) You are only trying to answer stuff if people pressure you? If it wouldn't be a problem, you wouldn't answer at all? Regardless of who you are, you are a better player than to not know why I think this.

I wasn't pressured, I was (seemingly) ASKED to provide it. 871 doom asks

Do you have a problem with restating what you've said for the sake of convenience, then?

and then I provided it in 877. Pressure on me for the most part came AFTER that big post (Hans had me on one of his potential lists, Revan called me/Hans as a possibility, not really much else during d3 up to that point, and the only vote made at that point was Hans on Revan).

So clearly I didn't answer due to pressure. So what exactly is the problem you see here? Is this simply something where you THOUGHT that I was under pressure when I provided that data? Do you dispute my version of the facts of the board as they existed at that point in time?

2) Why is this question relevant? Why should I care about what part of the argument would made he believe it or no. If he is town, he has no reason to not believe it. NO REASON. And I think he's town. So he believes in all parts of the argument. (This is UD asking me a nonsense question, that I obviously won't answer, so he can say: "Hey, lucca doesn't answer questions."

It's actually not a nonsense question. It's asking you to look at the specifics of what he was doing with a critical eye. I was curious if you were capable or interested in doing this. Apparently the answer is no.

3) In every interaction you have with people you have to believe something. You believe that I'm super derp town. I believe that you slipped. What is the problem?

My problem is that your argument that I "slipped" is nonsensical. My problem is that it's difficult to distinguish between lazy townies who push this because they're lazy, and scum who push this because it's an easy argument to use to pretend to be useful.

---

1) the thing that differenciate both is the attack part. town would be concerned with defend yourself by attacking the case. you are trying to attack the player to disprove them.

Town attack the players who attack them all the time. This isn't your first game, this shouldn't be news to you. You may WISH that town only attacked arguments and not people but I don't believe that this it's somehow news to you that people do not, in fact, play this way. Also...

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? Do you truly think that town who thinks that the case aginast him is bullshit would only attack arguments and not the people making them?

2) yes, I should believe that what UD is doing is not scummy, because UD said so. You have said that you treat people as town unless you think they're scum. I think that you have slipped. It's different opinions of a same situation.

How many times in your career have you seen this argument being made that someone is treating someone else as town (especially as a response to a push) being a "slip" that they know their alignment? How many times has this argument been correct? Again, this isn't your first game, you should have background that you can use to evaluate the effectiveness of this "tell" (hint: it's a terrible tell and virtually no one can reliably tell alignment from this).

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Did I? I'm pretty sure I took it as evidence that your stated read didn't have substance behind it, and therefore was potentially insincere. Why do you think I interpreted it as you being antagonistic? Or did you mean that I was being antagonistic to you there?

I meant that you seemed to react as if I was being antagonistic, demonstrating that I had, in fact, demonstrated how easily antagonism can be faked.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I don't think I really understand what you're getting at, or which of my posts to you in particular was an example of this.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

5-9) What I meant to say is that there isn't a big difference between those emotions. They're all antagonism, and all come naturally to scum. They don't even need to fake them.

Your emotionalism isn't necessarily townie emotionalism. If anything, it would be indicative of scum. And trying to defend yourself with behavioral tells (indicating your knowledge of them) is questionable at best. My FOS stands.

How does antagonism come naturally to scum? Have you ever played scum? Are you normally antagonistic when you get a red PM? Can you provide any actual examples of this?

"Aggressive curiosity" is a term I've heard (and liked) about what makes a fundamentally townie mindset. A scum mindset is sometimes to actively fool town, but more commonly to (at least in ideal circumstances) passively coast while town eats itself (thus the term "active lurking" as a good summary of a typical scum approach). Antagonism is GENERALLY not a scummy trait, unless it's rooted in something fundamentally pro-scum.

With that in mind, what EXACTLY in my emotionalism seems scummy to you? What about my antagonism seems rooted in a pro-scum mindset? The simple fact of my antagonism's existence is certainly not scummy behavior, which frankly should be apparent after having played just a couple games of mafia, so you'd need to connect that emotion to a scummy mindset (or demonstrate that it's faked) for it to have any validity as a tell. I'm curious if you're capable of or interested in doing this.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@doomfeathers: it seems like you've been mafia once and town the rest of your games (among your completed games). How would you describe how your mindset varied between when you were town and when you were scum?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

What do you think specifically is scummy about those posts?

701 is a post that is not meant to guide town to understanding why hans is town. It's a post that's meant to highlight how townie and self aware mozamis is.

- Junko

[Ultimate Despair]

I didn't like the oopshammer.

I disagree. I think if I had known it was a hammer I would have done it anyway. I wanted FC lynched and extra discussion wasn't doing the town any good.

[Ultimate Despair]

(mostly) caught up, though I skipped the walls of lucca derptunnelling.

Magna: Tell me why you think you haven't been shot.

- junko

[Ultimate Despair]

So at first glance a lot of what you says seems to make some sense. However,

And then we're in this game and I'm like man this guy is a sickeningly obvious scumfuck. That vote hop onto Mozambis was SO BAD that I am still cringing over it.

given that MOI's hop on was so awful in the first place, why did you choose to sheep it?

[Ultimate Despair]

Spoiler: VC Data

VOTE COUNT 1.1
Doomfeathers (3/7) - Nahdia_Superfan,

Hawk

,

Friend Computer

Hawk

(1/7) - Revan
Nahdia_Superfan (1/7) - Doomfeathers

Friend Computer

(1/7) - MagnaofIllusion
not voting:

Sesq

,

mozamis

, Ultimate Despair, lucca261, Superhans, havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.2

Sesq

(3/7) -

mozamis

, Nahdia_Superfan,

Hawk

Friend Computer

(2/7) - MagnaofIllusion, doomfeathers
doomfeathers (1/7) -

Friend Computer

Hawk

(1/7) - Revan
Revan (1/7) - lucca261

mozamis

(1/7) - Ultimate Despair
not voting:

Sesq

, Superhans, havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.3
As per the mechanics, vote count is reset.

Friend Computer

(3/7) - MagnaofIllusion, doomfeathers, Nahdia_Superfan

Sesq

(2/7) -

mozamis

,

Hawk

doomfeathers (1/7) -

Friend Computer

Hawk

(1/7) - Revan
Revan (1/7) - lucca261

mozamis

(1/7) - Ultimate Despair
not voting:

Sesq

, Superhans, havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.4

Friend Computer

(4/7) - doomfeathers,

Sesq

, Nahdia_Superfan, magnaofillusion
Revan (1/7) - superhans
not voting:

Friend Computer

,

mozamis

, Revan, Ultimate Despair, lucca261, havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.5

Sesq

(3/7) - doomfeathers, magnaofillusion, ultimate despair

Friend Computer

(2/7) -

Sesq

, Nahdia_Superfan
Revan (1/7) - superhans
not voting:

Friend Computer

,

mozamis

, Revan, lucca261, havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.6

Sesq

(3/7) -

mozamis

, doomfeathers, ultimate despair

Friend Computer

(3/7) - Nahdia_Superfan, magnaofillusion, havingfitz
Revan (2/7) - superhans,

Sesq

Superhans (1/7) - revan
not voting:

Friend Computer

, lucca261

VOTE COUNT 1.7

Friend Computer

(4/6) - Nahdia_Superfan, magnaofillusion, havingfitz, doomfeathers,
Superhans (2/6) - revan, lucca261

Sesq

(2/6) -

mozamis

, ultimate despair
Revan (2/6) - superhans,

Sesq

not voting:

Friend Computer

VOTE COUNT 1.8
**

Friend Computer

** (6/6) - Nahdia_Superfan, magnaofillusion, havingfitz, doomfeathers,

Sesq

, ultimate despair
Superhans (2/6) - revan, lucca261

Sesq

(1/6) -

mozamis

Revan (1/6) - superhans
not voting:

Friend Computer

VOTE COUNT 2.1
Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261
MagnaofIllusion (1): doomfeathers
Superhans (1): Revan
Not Voting (6): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, MagnaofIllusion, wgeurts,

mozamis

, Superhans

VOTE COUNT 2.2
Superhans (2): Revan,

mozamis

Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261
Not Voting (6): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, MagnaofIllusion, wgeurts, Superhans, doomfeathers

VOTE COUNT 2.3
Superhans (2): Revan,

mozamis

Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261
Havingfitz (1): doomfeathers

mozamis

(1): MagnaofIllusion
Not Voting (4): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, Nahdia_Superfan, Superhans

VOTE COUNT 2.5
Superhans (3): Revan,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

mozamis

(2): Superhans, MagnaofIllusion
Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261
Not Voting (3): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, Nahdia_Superfan

VOTE COUNT 2.6

mozamis

(3): MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz
Superhans (2): Revan, doomfeathers
Ultimate Despair (2): lucca261,

mozamis

Not Voting (2): Nahdia_Superfan, superhans

VOTE COUNT 2.7

mozamis

(3): MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz
Ultimate Despair (3): lucca261, revan,

mozamis

Superhans (1): doomfeathers
Revan (1): superhans
Not Voting (1): Nahdia_Superfan

VOTE COUNT 2.9

mozamis

(5): MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz, Nahdia_Superfan, superhans
Ultimate Despair (3): lucca261, revan,

mozamis

Superhans (1): doomfeathers

[Ultimate Despair]

So let's see what a fitz/magna team might look like:

Spoiler:

VOTE COUNT 1.1
Doomfeathers (3/7) - Nahdia_Superfan,

Hawk

,

Friend Computer

Hawk

(1/7) - Revan
Nahdia_Superfan (1/7) - Doomfeathers

Friend Computer

(1/7) -

MagnaofIllusion

not voting:

Sesq

,

mozamis

, Ultimate Despair, lucca261, Superhans,

havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.2

Sesq

(3/7) -

mozamis

, Nahdia_Superfan,

Hawk

Friend Computer

(2/7) -

MagnaofIllusion

, doomfeathers
doomfeathers (1/7) -

Friend Computer

Hawk

(1/7) - Revan
Revan (1/7) - lucca261

mozamis

(1/7) - Ultimate Despair
not voting:

Sesq

, Superhans,

havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.3
As per the mechanics, vote count is reset.

Friend Computer

(3/7) -

MagnaofIllusion

, doomfeathers, Nahdia_Superfan

Sesq

(2/7) -

mozamis

,

Hawk

doomfeathers (1/7) -

Friend Computer

Hawk

(1/7) - Revan
Revan (1/7) - lucca261

mozamis

(1/7) - Ultimate Despair
not voting:

Sesq

, Superhans,

havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.4

Friend Computer

(4/7) - doomfeathers,

Sesq

, Nahdia_Superfan,

MagnaofIllusion

Revan (1/7) - superhans
not voting:

Friend Computer

,

mozamis

, Revan, Ultimate Despair, lucca261,

havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.5

Sesq

(3/7) - doomfeathers,

MagnaofIllusion

, ultimate despair

Friend Computer

(2/7) -

Sesq

, Nahdia_Superfan
Revan (1/7) - superhans
not voting:

Friend Computer

,

mozamis

, Revan, lucca261,

havingfitz

VOTE COUNT 1.6

Sesq

(3/7) -

mozamis

, doomfeathers, ultimate despair

Friend Computer

(3/7) - Nahdia_Superfan,

MagnaofIllusion

,

havingfitz

Revan (2/7) - superhans,

Sesq

Superhans (1/7) - revan
not voting:

Friend Computer

, lucca261

VOTE COUNT 1.7

Friend Computer

(4/6) - Nahdia_Superfan,

MagnaofIllusion

,

havingfitz

, doomfeathers,
Superhans (2/6) - revan, lucca261

Sesq

(2/6) -

mozamis

, ultimate despair
Revan (2/6) - superhans,

Sesq

not voting:

Friend Computer

VOTE COUNT 1.8
**

Friend Computer

** (6/6) - Nahdia_Superfan,

MagnaofIllusion

,

havingfitz

, doomfeathers,

Sesq

, ultimate despair
Superhans (2/6) - revan, lucca261

Sesq

(1/6) -

mozamis

Revan (1/6) - superhans
not voting:

Friend Computer

VOTE COUNT 2.1
Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261

MagnaofIllusion

(1): doomfeathers
Superhans (1): Revan
Not Voting (6):

havingfitz

, Ultimate Despair,

MagnaofIllusion

, wgeurts,

mozamis

, Superhans

VOTE COUNT 2.2
Superhans (2): Revan,

mozamis

Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261
Not Voting (6):

havingfitz

, Ultimate Despair,

MagnaofIllusion

, wgeurts, Superhans, doomfeathers

VOTE COUNT 2.3
Superhans (2): Revan,

mozamis

Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261

havingfitz

(1): doomfeathers

mozamis

(1):

MagnaofIllusion

Not Voting (4):

havingfitz

, Ultimate Despair, Nahdia_Superfan, Superhans

VOTE COUNT 2.5
Superhans (3): Revan,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

mozamis

(2): Superhans,

MagnaofIllusion

Ultimate Despair (1): lucca261
Not Voting (3):

havingfitz

, Ultimate Despair, Nahdia_Superfan

VOTE COUNT 2.6

mozamis

(3):

MagnaofIllusion

, Ultimate Despair,

havingfitz

Superhans (2): Revan, doomfeathers
Ultimate Despair (2): lucca261,

mozamis

Not Voting (2): Nahdia_Superfan, superhans

VOTE COUNT 2.7

mozamis

(3):

MagnaofIllusion

, Ultimate Despair,

havingfitz

Ultimate Despair (3): lucca261, revan,

mozamis

Superhans (1): doomfeathers
Revan (1): superhans
Not Voting (1): Nahdia_Superfan

VOTE COUNT 2.9

mozamis

(5):

MagnaofIllusion

, Ultimate Despair,

havingfitz

, Nahdia_Superfan, superhans
Ultimate Despair (3): lucca261, revan,

mozamis

Superhans (1): doomfeathers

I'm not going to say no off the bat, but that would certainly be a pretty aggressive scum team, especially on Magna's part. No sitting back and watching town eat itself, but rather driving the action and happily being on big town wagons and helping push them through.

Kinda want to mull that over I think.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I didn't like the oopshammer.

I disagree. I think if I had known it was a hammer I would have done it anyway. I wanted FC lynched and extra discussion wasn't doing the town any good.

You disagree that I didn't like your oopshammer? Cause I didn't. It just wasn't worth fussing over when you had a plausible excuse with the mod's erroneous L-# in his last vote count.

Do you think Hans would have hammered if he'd known (according to him) that it wasn't an accident? And would that have effected your take on his hammer?

Fitz, can you explain why you responded to this as if Junko was disagreeing that you disliked the oopshammer (which would have been a pretty inspid time-wasting post on her part) as opposed to the much more obvious interpretation that she disagreed that the oopshammer SHOULD be disliked?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@mod: Revan is due another prod I believe.

@Revan: what exactly is your headspace these days? You'd talked about wanting to provide content, and you'd be substantiating your reads, but it's been days and there's been nothing.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

{Fitz} - Literally just not even in consideration to be called town.

So can you talk about fitz a bit more here? It seems like your read on him is substantially gamestate and connections-related; has he been making specifically scummy posts in your mind as well, or is basically just a "the game state doesn't make sense unless he's scum" sort of thing?

I'll spend some time digging more into him as well, but I'd like you to flesh out your read of him a bit more, focusing on him specifically if possible.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

FWIW, I don't really know Magna that well, so I can't weigh in on his meta. If you're asking whether I'm willing to lynch him, potentially. Once we get scum flips it'll be easier to figure out connections and whether anyone's been decently spewed scum or town.

If you're asking whether I'm 100% sold on him being scum and will auto-lynch him if/when you get shot, not really. I'm willing to listen and think on it (if nothing else, the fact that the "easy play" has pretty consistently been wrong is pretty decent evidence that there's at least one high-quality scum pulling the strings), but I'd be lying if I said I was right there w you right now.

Frankly, I still need to do a full readthrough, and I've been putting it off to some degree (and certainly won't be doing it tomorrow given the super bowl), so I'm trying to keep an open mind and not rush to any conclusions.

-M

PS It would be helpful if you highlighted what from fitz in particular seems super scummy given that he's your current primary push.

[Ultimate Despair]

Oh and there's a massive number of posts where he asks questions and never follows up on them. MASSIVE number.

well THAT I can definitely get behind. Will dig around and see if I agree. Possibly tomorrow night, possibly mondya.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

well im sort of here but it's also saturday night and i don't want to actually do real thinking *shrugs*

[Ultimate Despair]

I'm prepping for super bowl get together. At this point I'd say priority #1 is getting manga and fitz to actually substantiate reads on each other in light of RC's showing and exit. Presumably manga not back until Monday, not sure at all when fitz will be showing up again.

I'll be re-reading and thinking, but I kinda wanna see what they have to say at this point.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

FWIW I'm sort of online (at work but trying to keep an eye on things).

Think we're at:
fitz: magna
magna: hans, doom

I'm not voting anyone rn, and I'm not ready to choose between fitz/magna. Plan to do more tonight, obviously barring some kind of scum quick-hammer.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Town would almost never quick-hammer, so I'm largely discounting that possibility. Obv if town does quick-hammer scum, then I'll still be doing more tonight since it's not game over. If scum quick-hammers town, I'll be doing no more work becuase duh.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

well that looked pretty coordinated. probably gg but I guess I can hope.

[Ultimate Despair]

not really sure tbh. wouldn't be totally shocked if it was two town on the wagon; lucca's vote didn't really look like a gg hammer *shrugs*

[Ultimate Despair]

although then again it being simul. with fitz probably maens he was scum being cheeky

[Ultimate Despair]

gg

why'd you guys shoot hawk d1?

[Ultimate Despair]

lol
amusing

oh well sometimes you just shouldn't read into things I guess *shrugs*

[Ultimate Despair]

we got mad about it too, relax.

but I was actually angry with you, UD.

and you were right about everything. sometimes is better to play the dumb town.

Clearly not right about EVERYTHING

Tho the whole "no one can tell the difference between knowing someone is town and thinking it" bit is super accurate.

Id also say that twilight is the PERFECT time for that kind of questioning, and my getting scum read for it was really silly but *shrugs*

[Ultimate Despair]

I'll try to be less "obnoxious hydra" next time too

Though that was my head not the junko head. And USUALLY I'm less intense, it's just sometimes that slips a bit.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

It's kinda funny that karnos was super quick to post a flip and cut off twilight discussion when it was potentially interesting (grumble, grumble) but has gone elsewhere now that the game is actually over

[Ultimate Despair]

It wasn't so much that I was keen to get people on you for it as it was that it struck me as something that just wasn't credible where you'd have missed it. Your angry declaration that you DID in fact miss it a day or two later struck me as a response that was consistent with having actually missed it, even though it just seemed super sketchy. While I do feel good about my ability to read tone overall, obviously there are times when I swing and miss pretty hard on it.

Was an interesting game, shame it didn't go better, but sometimes that's how it goes.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Fwiw i was mulling voter unfitting Moz after the back and forth but wasn't sure about pulling the trigger. Wish I had but alas.