Mini 1867 -- TBD Mafia [game over]

ɀefiend
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Post Post #375  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:18 pm

Catch up later tonight. Got a lot to read.

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Post Post #376  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:19 pm

In post 274, lane0168 wrote:
In post 240, Narna wrote:
In post 238, ɀefiend wrote:
In post 234, Narna wrote:Lane's question to Dreal seems like phony busywork.

VOTE: Lane

Even though it might have been the first non-RVS post made in the game? Someone's gotta get the ball rolling right?

I'm trying to get the ball rolling. Lane didn't really engage rvs at all, and he enters the game trying to break rvs by questioning something that didn't seem alignment indicative to me. Dreal's bit on Frank, and KT's question seem like more genuine attempts to break rvs here.


What is busy about it? You're quick on that I think. One post asking a legitimate question. Can you think of any reasons someone might accidentally pay more attention to votes on one person as opposed to another? You say I enter trying to break rvs. How well do you think town does if rvs never ends? I engaged rvs. I voted mcmenno. Then I saw something that interested me. Why don't you go look at the posts before and after my question, then tell me when rvs ended. Your accusation doesn't make sense on many levels. You might even call it busy work.

Who else is on your suspicion list that didn't really engage in rvs? Are kt and dreal on your list for trying to break rvs? Like you said I was doing?

Both of those votes that Dreal questioned were naked votes, and it seemed pretty apparent he was trying to get more than that out of people. The mcmenno association seems like a safe misrep to get a response and seem like you're scumhunting. The rvs thing was poorly thought out, and pretending to scumhunt fits better than "breaking rvs" considering KT and Dreal's serious posting was just before yours. My bad there, but the point is still pretty much that the question falsely associates Dreal with Mcmenno.

I wasn't a fan of Snarky's "hurr modvote" or Frank's first joke from rvs. I mentioned that KT and Dreal's attempts at breaking rvs seemed genuine in the post you quoted.

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Post Post #377  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:28 pm

In post 277, lane0168 wrote:I'm also noting nama calling my question busy work, but dreals questioning rvs votes on mcmenno is not mentioned.

One of them takes actual observation. One of them is about as easy as it gets

Fair point, I didn't really want to start a huge rvs debate in rvs. Taking rvs too seriously comes from town and scum, and the questions seemed null coming from Dreal.

Your observation doesn't really have a logical conclusion. Scum doesn't typically invite people to talk about their allies during rvs.

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Post Post #378  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:44 pm

In post 281, lane0168 wrote:
In post 242, Narna wrote:
In post 239, KainTepes wrote:
In post 237, Narna wrote:
In post 224, Narna wrote:KT, if you tell me your answer to "if you can drive cars", "do you have a job", and "what's your greatest weakness", I'll give you my preferred alignment for the game.


ok i don't mind,,

"cars" = no,
"job" = no,
"what's your greatest weakness" = i am kain tepes...........

I wanted to be

S C U M


Were you trying to be dramatic? Or did you hope if you put in caps like that people might think you were being jokey and not think you got what you asked for? I'm curious why you wrote it like that

I was doing dealings with the KAIN TEPES and being dramatic, yes. Answering scum in general has me implying that I didn't get what I asked for. I'm curious why your questions need to be loaded like this.

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Post Post #379  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:52 pm

In post 278, lane0168 wrote:
In post 244, Narna wrote:
In post 241, drealmerz7 wrote:
In post 233, KainTepes wrote:because you are reluctant to reveal your answer,, and insistent on scumreading me for asking this question, and i dont think you have a good reason for trying to stop people from answering my question

I'm reluctant to assume revealing my answer does town any good

I'm not soley SRing because you ask the question, and you simplifying it as such as a way to dismiss the validity of my concerns is even more telling

my reasons are pro-town cautionary

and itseems like you're zoooming as fast as you can to get whatever you can before my CAUTIONARY influence is heeded at all (and you try to discredit my influence at the same time, of course)

people can always reveal in time to come, they can never take it back

do you see my concern?

also, it seems odd that you'd reveal you had such a role too, or that there'd even been one

If revealing shit turns out to be bad for town, it would implicate KT and I think that more likely than not, it would help solve the gamestate down the line. If revealing stuff doesn't effect the game much at all, then it may force scum into lying more. However, given the mod gave a warning about revealing your answers, I don't blame you for being cautious.

But do you get where I'm coming from?


If revealing turns out to be bad for town, how does that implicate KainTepes? Either is AI or NAI. You can't decide that after the fact, because scum or town could ask about it. The results don't determine KainTepes alignment, unless you can convince me otherwise right now.

If you do something that has an anti town result, you're likely to be implicated. Would you be suspicious of people who lead a mislynch? Of course the results alone don't determine everything. I used "implicate" for a reason, and you are putting words in my mouth.

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Post Post #380  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:19 am

CAN ALL PEOPLE ANSWER THE QUESTION OF KAIN TARPES
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #381  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:19 am

narna Tlean
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #382  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:57 am

I'm thinking Davsto v Dreal is tvt

I'm not sold on Davsto's case on Dreal since Lane is twisting words. I see frustrated town make defenses like Dreal's. However, I agree with pretty much everything in #358.

Lane condenses 3 decent sized posts into like 6 sentences, and ignores some of Dreal's other posts around the time that give context in #361 to load the ever living crap out of the question he asks. The question itself was just going to make Dreal repeat himself (buzzword work) which only makes the game harder to read. He then ends the post on a cute little observation that can't really be disputed, and claims to be arguing on facts. That push is shady. I'm more comfortable with my Lane scumread now.

Ari is my second pick at the moment if Lane doesn't get any takers.

ɀefiend
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Post Post #383  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:05 am

I read everything that happened, and here's my takeaway. Long-ish post ahead. TL;DR to follow.

lane and Davsto are very logical players. I don't have game experience with lane but from the way he posts it's obvious. I do agree that with Narna that lane asks some very leading questions at times, but I don't find this AI in and of itself. As for Davsto, I do have some game experience and I also read the entire Donald Trump thread in GD. The two of them are clashing heavily with drealmerz because he's a very emotional player. Technically I don't have game "experience" with him but you don't even need that to conclude that drealmerz is an AtE type-of-guy. I think drealmerz position about not answering is defensible when you consider that KainTepes himself reflects on drealmerz' perspective. (Side note: I think KainTepes is Town. Even if (s)he's not, (s)he's locked himself into a softclaim revolving around the questionnaire. That should be easy to expose later on in the game.) However, I dislike drealmerz' style of dealing with pressure if he is indeed Town. He doesn't even attempt to answer some basic questions and also relies on WIFOM defenses which I absolutely detest. Enough about drealmerz, though. Of all the votes on him, I actually think Aristophanes' is the most suspicious, so IGMEOY.

My top scum-read is actually Desperado. He earned my pseudo-placeholder vote for this post:
In post 263, Desperado wrote:
In post 261, Narna wrote:Is Lane town?


Could be ya.

Find scum intent in mcmeemo posting.


Faking the PR; no meaningful response to his wagon; no thoughts on dreal responding to his wagon for him.

My thoughts concern the second part Re: McMenno. Note that Narna's request was for Desperado to point out things about McMenno's posts that had scum motivation. However, two out of the three reasons Desperado gives imply that a lack of specific posting from McMenno is scummy. (The PR thing is up in the air, since we are talking about "McMeme-o" after all. I'm not going to digress to argue the strength of this reason.) McMenno didn't have a meaningful response to his wagon, but neither did Davsto, and Davsto's was bigger. The last reason is misapplied to the actual situation, so I cannot discern whether it is bogus scum reasoning or an honest mistake. However, I can explain the misapplication. Drealmerz wasn't responding to the McMenno wagon per se, he was responding to Lane questioning him about his own concern for the wagon.

In post 267, Desperado wrote:Even if everyone answered truthfully both on the questionnaire and in their answers here I don't think we'd be able to deduce anything from that information. We don't know what kind of assumptions xyzzy was making to interpret the data and make design decisions.

I don't know if it's necessarily anti-town, mainly because merely discussing this issue can provide alignment indicators, but I do think it could end up dominating the discussion and give scum an easy IIoA avenue.

The last sentence pings me because (1) it reads as fence-sitting about the discussion as a whole, whereas most (active) players have taken a hard stance on it, and (2) KainTepes and drealmerz had just gone through a lengthy back-and-forth about the discussion at hand, but Desperado doesn't elaborate about what, if any "alignment indicators" he picked up on from their exchange -- this begs the questions
-If the KainTepes/drealmerz exchange didn't provide any alignment indicators (side note: I think it did), what type of indicators should we actually be searching for with regards to the questionnaire-reveal discussion? &
-If the exchange did provide alignment indicators, why didn't Desperado share these at the time? Why bring up the fact that the discussion can provide alignment indicators if you aren't going to talk about them?

In other news, I have Narna as a solid Town-read. I really like all of the posts he made on this page. I would like to know his opinion on my Desperado-read.

Lastly, McMenno, Frank, and Sparky need to actually contribute. I am waiting with keen ears for this post from Frank.

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Post Post #384  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:11 am

TL;DR

I talk about my view of the KT-drealmerz-lane-Davsto situation and case Desperado for scum. I also mention everybody else in passing.

Strong-town: Narna
Prob-town: Davsto, Drealmerz, KainTepes
Not sure: Lane
Null: Secret Agent Jin, Gamma Emerald, McMenno
Ping-scum: Aristophanes
Lurker-scum candidates: Frank, Snarky
Scum-lean: Desperado

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Post Post #385  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:30 am

In post 370, drealmerz7 wrote:maybe I'm a fucking DayVig

there are other options too

In post 371, drealmerz7 wrote:it could have been an empty threat

it could have been a threat to make a push

it could have been a threat to make a push in the future

maybe I'm fucking scum and I hate lurkers

who fucking knows
!?!?!?

I DO

In post 372, drealmerz7 wrote:hell, maybe I have an anti-lurk gun as a skill related to my ability

you don't fucking know

In post 373, drealmerz7 wrote:I shoot it at my target and it gives them a post restriction of 5 posts per day

100 words per post
Ahh yes you're entirely right these are much more reasonable assumptions to make than a threat of a wagon against someone, aren't they?
"dammit davsto" - everyone
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On UK time, currently UTC+1

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Post Post #386  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:32 am

Like gosh I should have seen what you said and rather than dare to think "ooh he's threatening to vote" and totally twist your words I should have known you were an anti-lurk gun dayvig
"dammit davsto" - everyone
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Post Post #387  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:33 am

In post 383, ɀefiend wrote:IGMEOY
It took longer than it should have for me to figure out what this meant. Usually we just call it an FoS (Finger of Suspicion). IGMEOY works though lol
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Post Post #388  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:09 am

In post 386, Davsto wrote:Like gosh I should have seen what you said and rather than dare to think "ooh he's threatening to vote" and totally twist your words I should have known you were an anti-lurk gun dayvig

or ask me what I meant

narna thank you for me not being the only one seeing what lane is doing, that is why I totally disengaged that slot - it's scum tactics over and over

moving vote back

UNVOTE: davsto - still think likely scum and have no qualms switching back and forth between these 2 wagons until I feel otherwise

VOTE: lane - definitely scum
balance among all things

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Post Post #389  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:10 am

In post 386, Davsto wrote:n anti-lurk gun dayvig

this ability is totally going in a future game that I mod
balance among all things

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Post Post #390  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:05 am

If you're not voting davsto, you're wrong.

Lane is a good choice otherwise though.

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Post Post #391  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:21 am

In post 390, SnarkySnowman wrote:If you're not voting davsto, you're wrong.

Lane is a good choice otherwise though.


anti-lurk gun holstered!
balance among all things

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Post Post #392  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:32 am

In post 383, ɀefiend wrote:However, two out of the three reasons Desperado gives imply that a lack of specific posting from McMenno is scummy.

I mean twou ouf thouse points are literally I was nout oun at the time sou I've resigned to him being either a lyncher oun me our bad scum

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Post Post #393  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:50 am

In post 383, ɀefiend wrote:My thoughts concern the second part Re: McMenno. Note that Narna's request was for Desperado to point out things about McMenno's posts that had scum motivation. However, two out of the three reasons Desperado gives imply that a lack of specific posting from McMenno is scummy. (The PR thing is up in the air, since we are talking about "McMeme-o" after all. I'm not going to digress to argue the strength of this reason.) McMenno didn't have a meaningful response to his wagon, but neither did Davsto, and Davsto's was bigger. The last reason is misapplied to the actual situation, so I cannot discern whether it is bogus scum reasoning or an honest mistake. However, I can explain the misapplication. Drealmerz wasn't responding to the McMenno wagon per se, he was responding to Lane questioning him about his own concern for the wagon.


When a player is wagoned he has four options:

1) Ignore it and do nothing else
2) Ignore it and continue scumhunting
3) Address it and do nothing else
4) Address it and continue scumhunting

1) and 3) lean scum, 2) and 4) lean town. McMenno and Davsto clearly reacted differently to their wagons so I'm curious what leads you to suggest that I'm "misapplying" anything here.

As for the last bit, Drealmerz questioned multiple McMenno votes--that is a response to the McMenno wagon, by definition. He carried a conversation on with lane regarding it, but if another player goes out of his way to question multiple votes on my town slot in RVS, I would want to know why and I would expect other townies to feel similarly.

In post 383, ɀefiend wrote:The last sentence pings me because (1) it reads as fence-sitting about the discussion as a whole, whereas most (active) players have taken a hard stance on it, and (2) KainTepes and drealmerz had just gone through a lengthy back-and-forth about the discussion at hand, but Desperado doesn't elaborate about what, if any "alignment indicators" he picked up on from their exchange -- this begs the questions
-If the KainTepes/drealmerz exchange didn't provide any alignment indicators (side note: I think it did), what type of indicators should we actually be searching for with regards to the questionnaire-reveal discussion? &
-If the exchange did provide alignment indicators, why didn't Desperado share these at the time? Why bring up the fact that the discussion can provide alignment indicators if you aren't going to talk about them?


Up to now Kain and Dreal are the only people truly engaging the questionnaire discussion and I have shared my Dreal read so I'm not really sure where you're going with this.
;)

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Post Post #394  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:52 am

In post 390, SnarkySnowman wrote:If you're not voting davsto, you're wrong.

Lane is a good choice otherwise though.


"Snarky steps back up to the plate down 0-2 in the count, and the pitch..."
;)

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Post Post #395  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:56 am

In post 392, McMenno wrote:I mean twou ouf thouse points are literally I was nout oun at the time sou I've resigned to him being either a lyncher oun me our bad scum


Are they?

In post 130, McMenno wrote:I will OUVERTHROUW this nefarious brit

In post 148, lane0168 wrote:VOTE: mcmenno

In post 149, drealmerz7 wrote:why the vote on mcmenno?

In post 154, ɀefiend wrote:VOTE: McMenno

In post 155, drealmerz7 wrote:mcmenno, did you poop inside or something?

In post 173, McMenno wrote:are you nout oumgusing, davstou


You're active lurking, you aren't outwardly attempting to game solve or help anyone else do so, and I want you dead.
;)

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Post Post #396  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:09 pm

In post 382, Narna wrote:I'm thinking Davsto v Dreal is tvt

I'm not sold on Davsto's case on Dreal since Lane is twisting words. I see frustrated town make defenses like Dreal's. However, I agree with pretty much everything in #358.

Lane condenses 3 decent sized posts into like 6 sentences, and ignores some of Dreal's other posts around the time that give context in #361 to load the ever living crap out of the question he asks. The question itself was just going to make Dreal repeat himself (buzzword work) which only makes the game harder to read. He then ends the post on a cute little observation that can't really be disputed, and claims to be arguing on facts. That push is shady. I'm more comfortable with my Lane scumread now.

Ari is my second pick at the moment if Lane doesn't get any takers.


I started with the post that dreal calls davsto the probable town. And the next two posts. Show me the context that I excluded, that matters. He calls davsto the town on his wagon. Davsto gives him pressure. He votes davsto. You're right, my cute little observation can't be disputed, because it's fact. He votes the people that pressure him, and somehow you think that's scum hunting or coming from town. I'm not claiming to be arguing on facts, I am arguing on facts. And you're trying to discredit those facts. Except facts can't be discredited

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Post Post #397  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:10 pm

@narna, has dreal voted anyone pressuring him at the time? Everyone? Anyone else that hasn't been pressuring him? How can you try to make me look shady when I'm talking about what is actually happening? Like honestly?

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Post Post #398  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:13 pm

In post 388, drealmerz7 wrote:
In post 386, Davsto wrote:Like gosh I should have seen what you said and rather than dare to think "ooh he's threatening to vote" and totally twist your words I should have known you were an anti-lurk gun dayvig

or ask me what I meant

narna thank you for me not being the only one seeing what lane is doing, that is why I totally disengaged that slot - it's scum tactics over and over

moving vote back

UNVOTE: davsto - still think likely scum and have no qualms switching back and forth between these 2 wagons until I feel otherwise

VOTE: lane - definitely scum


Answer me. Tell me how you progressed from davsto being the town on your slot, to thinking me and davsto are likely scum?

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Post Post #399  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:14 pm

In those 3 posts. Don't use anything that doesn't occur between your town read and your vote

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