In Memory

[Postie]

I mentioned that I have witnessed people do some pretty unbelievable stuff to win mafia games.

If my family died and I told you about it you could accuse me of having murdered them because "I've heard of people murdering their families before".
Why wouldn't you? Because you have no reason to believe I'm a shitty enough person to do that.

So I'll put this another way - what evidence do you have that what you're alleging is in line with Math's character as a person?

Because I can present you with plenty of evidence of them being an exceptionally kind human being and this therefore not making any sense in the context of what I know of them.

[JaeReed]

Postie, he's not going to listen to outside this game examples.

[Postie]

That's not even meta though. And my question to him still stands.

[Postie]

Or, I mean, I guess it is in some ways, but not in way zefiend's thinking of it. I wouldn't be referring to "stuff Math did in past games".

[drealmerz7]

the point to me is that it was brought into the game as content and so is in the game as content and while what zefiend is doing might be shady as fuck, it's still totally within the realm of play and therefore are pro-town things to consider, just because you know MB wouldn't do that doesn't make it unreasonable for him to question that aspect of it all, at least to an extent

I didn't want to get into it at the time, but to me, it was a perfectly normal use of "pants" and it seemed VERY over-reactive to get like MB did about it, and it definitely crossed my mind more than once that they could have been using the opportunity to try and get a lynch - so it doesn't matter how many times someone tells me "mb would never do that", a smart player doesn't just say "oh ok" and forget about it

now, zefiend is probably going too far with the DEO push, but, I'm not fully opposed to that slots lynch at this point either, and not sure why people are SO SURE they're town

let's assume The DEO IS scum for a minute: the thing with lycan happens as it does - what do you think MB does IF THEY STILL GENUINELY THINK THEY COULD BE BEING STALKED? do they just ignore it, not make it an issue - and so them making it an issue makes them town? I don't quite follow it all

[JaeReed]

A summary of the case vs DEO is as follows

: SS made a Day 1, Page 1 joke about policy-lynching "Titus" in response to a Titus-joke made by Kuroi. DEO interprets this as SS wanting to seriously policy-lynch the DEO slot. Despite repeated attempts by SS to explain that it was a joke, DEO runs with it for

over 20 pages

as a legitimate reason to lynch SS. DEO uses

personal

meta to substantiate her case, which by definition has no bearing on reading SS. DEO also dismisses Postie's townread of SS numerous times and attempts to counter every response Postie gives questioning the meta-reads.

During all this did you ever once get the feeling that DEO did not 100% believe that said personal meta was a real tell? Because I didn't.
There was conviction there. The push was absolutely awful but the conviction was not, and DEO's push feels like it had a full belief in being right backing it. DEO was treating their tell as a cop guilty, almost, yes, but that's not scummy.
Why do you believe DEO should have felt the need to listen to anyone else's townread of a slot over their own tell they believed they had picked up through their experience playing games up to that point?

Despite Postie, Deimos, and Vedith all asserting that SS's comment was a joke/derpy and should be "let go," DEO does not.

You mean like you're doing right now with everyone who actually knows both heads of The DEO?

DEO also repeatedly defends drealmerz from SS's accusations: drealmerz was the second most vocal person about lynching SS.

Point? When you're pushing on someone you think is scum and other people are also hard pushing with you and seem to have solid points from your point of view, do you not tend towards townreading them and defending them from your scumreads?

My contention here is that DEO ran with the PL thing too long and tried to force it home. I don't see a competent player like Titus doing that as Town.

This is burden of proficiency, and tunnelling isn't inherently scummy as well, it's how the tunnel is happening and how genuine the push is.

Furthermore, talking over Postie and attempting to disrupt SS's legitimate scumhunting efforts is scummy.

Not really. I didn't get the feeling they were trying to disrupt SS's scumhunting efforts. Talking over people isn't scummy, it's just loud.

[drealmerz7]

and I'm not really trying to side with zefiend, I just think it doesn't make so much sense for scum to be doing what he's doing

seems like towny who genuinely thinks bad of MB and, well, as wrong as that is, it doesn't make him scum

[Postie]

let's assume The DEO IS scum for a minute: the thing with lycan happens as it does - what do you think MB does IF THEY STILL GENUINELY THINK THEY COULD BE BEING STALKED? do they just ignore it, not make it an issue - and so them making it an issue makes them town? I don't quite follow it all

No, of course not, but I don't think they'd continue to address the issue in the way they did after the slot was lynched. I'll try and dig up some more quotes.
Either way though, this isn't what zefiend has been arguing. I might have understood if this was his line of thought. But it's not. He's straight-up arguing that this was faked reasoning, while trying to skirt around the implications of what that means.

[JaeReed]

the point to me is that it was brought into the game as content and so is in the game as content and while what zefiend is doing might be shady as fuck, it's still totally within the realm of play and therefore are pro-town things to consider, just because you know MB wouldn't do that doesn't make it unreasonable for him to question that aspect of it all, at least to an extent

I didn't want to get into it at the time, but to me, it was a perfectly normal use of "pants" and it seemed VERY over-reactive to get like MB did about it, and it definitely crossed my mind more than once that they could have been using the opportunity to try and get a lynch - so it doesn't matter how many times someone tells me "mb would never do that", a smart player doesn't just say "oh ok" and forget about it

now, zefiend is probably going too far with the DEO push, but, I'm not fully opposed to that slots lynch at this point either, and not sure why people are SO SURE they're town

let's assume The DEO IS scum for a minute: the thing with lycan happens as it does - what do you think MB does IF THEY STILL GENUINELY THINK THEY COULD BE BEING STALKED? do they just ignore it, not make it an issue - and so them making it an issue makes them town? I don't quite follow it all

!!See, this is a good post!

Yes, MathBlade would still make an issue of it if they genuinely thought they were being stalked. But you end up with one of three scenarios here:
1) MathBlade as scum knows Lycanfire is town and so is probably not stalking, but has a neighbourhood with someone - in this case their push is fishing for neighbourhood information.
2) MathBlade as scum knows Lycanfire is town, believes Lycan has been stalking them, and reports him.
3) MathBlade as scum knows Lycanfire is town, realizes that Lycan's use of pants is probably just a coincidence, and tries to push it to a lynch.

Now in all three of these scenarios... MathBlade made the following post after Lycanfire flipped:

I don't see any other option and that is what freaks me out about this game. I am a bullheaded hated player. No one listens or follows what I do. It is why I can't get invested because every time I try I get creeped out when I reread.

~~Math

Which is what we're arguing is out of character for MathBlade's personality.
Making this post means that as scum they're trying to manipulate people emotionally to townread them in a more subtle way than I even believe they even would have thought of doing as scum.

[Postie]

faked reasoning

Well, it'd be faked either way if Math were scum, but you know what I mean.

[drealmerz7]

what if MB is 3p scum or is GS and thought lycan could be 3p scum?

[drealmerz7]

The DEO, rather

[drealmerz7]

unless that is JR scumslipping that he knows there isn't any 3p scum...

[JaeReed]

and I'm not really trying to side with zefiend, I just think it doesn't make so much sense for scum to be doing what he's doing

seems like towny who genuinely thinks bad of MB and, well, as wrong as that is, it doesn't make him scum

I don't think I've ever said zefiend is scum for it though. Just wrong.

[Postie]

GS

What's GS?

[JaeReed]

unless that is JR scumslipping that he knows there isn't any 3p scum...

Lol. Think about what you just said, and what information scum are privvy to this game, and realize why this is actually really amusing.

[Titus]

God, Drealmerz, you make me want to throw you off a cliff. My tell was wrong. I get it. Give it a rest. Math thinks you're scum for it. I however know you are capable of such ignorant play.

What do you think of my troll vote on FA?

[ɀefiend]

I mentioned that I have witnessed people do some pretty unbelievable stuff to win mafia games.

If my family died and I told you about it you could accuse me of having murdered them because "I've heard of people murdering their families before".
Why wouldn't you? Because you have no reason to believe I'm a shitty enough person to do that.

So I'll put this another way - what evidence do you have that what you're alleging is in line with Math's character as a person?

Because I can present you with plenty of evidence of them being an exceptionally kind human being and this therefore not making any sense in the context of what I know of them.

I already asked nicely here

I'm going to shut up now so I don't get modkilled or force-replaced but if anyone tries to push meta at me again I'm gonna have to quit this game. KEEP IT TO THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME WHEN TALKING TO ME, PLEASE.

So now I will politely ask you TO FUCK OFF.

[ɀefiend]

I'm gonna respond to JaeReed's posts about my case and then step away from this game.

[Postie]

Wow.

[drealmerz7]

GS

What's GS?

groupscum

[drealmerz7]

What do you think of my troll vote on FA?

not serious enough!

[JaeReed]

what if MB is 3p scum or is GS and thought lycan could be 3p scum?

You're still arguing they continue to AtE about it rather than just avoid rereading, possibly report the creepy action, and try to pick up something to push that's current.

[drealmerz7]

nahnnahh I don't mean to be arguing that

I'm just saying, those points are missing from your post

[JaeReed]

Oh, I mean... I was trying to make my point more than list every single scenario one could possibly ever think of.